MM, I watched most of the video, then searched for "Joe Horn", as I did not know the name. Wikipedia says, "This article is about the American athlete. For Joe Horn the psychology professor, see Joseph M. Horn. For the guy who shot two people in Texas, see Joe Horn (murderer)." Real classy, huh?
From everything I've read, at the very worst, Mr. Horn could only be guilty of manslaughter. In my opinion, it was a justifiable homicide. Had that been my house the two slimebags were burlarizing, I would be thanking Mr. Horn, and trying to give him comfort. He did nothing wrong. Perhaps what he did wasn't right, but it sure wasn't wrong. The only wrongdoers in the story were the two rectal orifices who committed the burglary.
Ain't it funny how everyone bellyaches about people not wanting to "get involved", yet when somebody does get involved and stops a crime, those same bellyachers gripe about that, too?
If the Castle doctrine does not cover this type situation, then a new law needs to be written that will. Mr. Horn was entirely justified. His first action was to call the Police. When the police couldn't or wouldn't arrive in time to handle the situation, Mr. Horn handled it, and handled it well. Here are two "undocumented Americans" who will no longer break any laws.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
I would never have the guts to shoot someone, and ethically speaking Joe Horn walked a tight rope, but legally he had a right because those other guys put themselves in that situation.
No, he's a far cry from a murderer. I love how a crazed gunman shooting a church is "troubled" but a vigilante stopping a pack of theives is a "cold blooded killer."
Someone needs to report that to Wiki and have them make it more neutral. That's the REAL reason why the rest of world thinks we're so corrupt.
Candance, I would not classify Mr. Horn as a vigilante. He first called the police to handle the situation. When they could not, or would not, he handled it. If the two *$$holes had stopped in their tracks, they would be alive today. If Mr. Horn had been a vigilante, he would have plugged them, then called the police.
Whoever authored that entry in Wiki should be sued for slander.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
Either that, or we're succeeding in getting our message out. Have you read Drudge yet today? Center column headlines are nice.
Here's a quote from the USAToday article...
"On the Republican side, the White House has been busy making excuses for the Iraqi government's failure to move toward national reconciliation (which is the goal of the troop surge), and it has lowered the benchmarks for success to the level of irrelevance. That translates into reduced accountability, continued dependency and an open-ended commitment. Lowering the bar for the Iraqi government sends a message that Baghdad can enjoy security paid for in American lives, and reconstruction aid paid by America's taxpayers, and ignore its responsibilities.
Congressional Democrats, meanwhile, seem lost in a time warp. They could try to impose new benchmarks that acknowledge the military progress. Instead, too many seem unable or unwilling to admit that President Bush's surge of 30,000 more troops has succeeded beyond their initial predictions. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., who in the spring declared the war lost, said last week that "the surge hasn't accomplished its goals." Anti-war Democrats remain fixated on tying war funding to a rapid troop withdrawal. Yet pulling the troops out precipitously threatens to squander the progress of recent months toward salvaging a decent outcome to the Iraq debacle.
What's needed is acknowledgment that the surge is achieving what was intended: not complete military victory but enough stability to make political compromise possible. What's missing is Iraqi will to take advantage of the success."
This stuff is right on the money. Now we just have to find a Republican with some stones that can jam this to the forefront and make things happen.
If Nevada ever gets an honest and competent investigation going on land fraud and other activities of the Reid family out there, we might be referring to Harry as "convict number 587666". Now, there's a happy thought.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
....Charlie Rangel this morning on CNBC accused the Republicans in the Senate of "kidnapping" the entire government tax/spending process for daring to use parliamentary procedures in the Senate to force the Dems to back down on raising taxes in order to "pay" for the reduction in taxes from amending the AMT. The Senate vote on the AMT was 88-5 and he accused the Dems in the Senate of suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" for their Republican "captors".
The hosts on CNBC were so startled by that comment they didn't know what to say and just let out a nervous laugh.
Rangel either really hates Republicans, or is just a master at saying outrageous things to get attention. Remember his most famous comment about Republicans being racist, because their tax cuts, would, in his view, hurt minorities: "they don't say "Spic" or "Nigger" [sic] any more, they just say "Let's cut taxes."
According to Rangel, using parliamentary procedures ( as in shutting off debate) is only legitimate if done by Democrats. Otherwise, it's a hijacking of the process.
Rangel is whining, that's a good sign. However, what Rangel really wanted was for the AMT to not be indexed so the Dems could get their tax increase without having to vote for it. The Senate vote derailed his plan, this talk of offsetting the AMT fix or abolishing it with paygo was simply theater to give them cover for the tax increase. Hahaha Charlie, do you have the nerve to try again in 2008? I guess that will depend if a Dem gets elected in Nov right? Then you'll have the cover of all Dems taking responsibility not just a few.
You see, the Senate Dems know full well that if they didn't index the AMT for 2007 tax filers, tax payers would be socked with a tax increase in the run up to the Nov 2008 election, that's dangerous politics.
BTW - folks, Tomorrow the Federal Government must begin shutting down as the Continuing budget resolution ends December 14th. So either they pass another Continuing Resolution or they totally cave to W on the budget because we know at this point W is not going along with their usual compromise extortion attempts. W vetoed the S-CHIP bill again!
Why has the MSM been quiet about this???????? I suspect they are terrified their favorite political party, the Dems are going to get blamed so they are loathe to put any heat at all that might make the Dem leadership look as incompetent as they are. We have never had the federal budget not settled so late like this before, it's a record breaker and the MSM have slinked and tip toed around the issue by just focusing on W vetoing S-CHIP.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
You know, everyone thinks when the Democrats talk about "the rich" they mean other people. Maybe it would be a good idea to leave it unindexed for inflation. Then when all those "working families" the Democrats pretend to champion find out that they are in the group the Democrats call "the rich" there would be hell to pay.
And the MSM won't cover the "shutdown" any more than they absolutely have to, because they won't be able to blame Republicans...after all the Democrats have the majority and don't need any Republican votes at all, if they could hold their own members together....
Yesterday Sean Hannity played a diatribe from one of the Air America goonies on Oprah's blackness. I was getting out of the truck at the time and didn't get all of it. Do any of you know where to find it?
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” General George S. Patton.
I heard that too. The gist of it was that the only people who watch Oprah's show are "white women" regardless of who they really are. Even black men who watch that show think like "white women". She then went on to say that Oprah is "white" when she does her show, and only becomes "black" when she addresses a mostly black audience.
This is, what I have come to term, "The Salamander Syndrome" .
We saw it with O.J. ... At the beginning of his trial it was mentioned, in the MSM, that O.J. was looked upon as actually a "white man" ... That was until the trial progressed ... and it looked as if he would be found guilty. Then he was a "black man" again, unfairly lynched by the "white man's" judicial system, and racist white cops who just wanted to "get the black guy for killing the white woman and her white boyfriend" ... Then the jury decided O.J. was "black" again, and was to be the "justice" for all the "injustices" put upon "blacks" in this country for centuries ...
(I would touch on Sec. Condi Rice and other "black" conservatives/repubs, but you already know THEY are "albino blacks" ...)
So, Obama and Oprah will be switching back over to "black" again, should Obama whip Hillary's butt for the nomination ... Or, should HRC decide he should be her running mate in `08.
First Woman Prez and First Black VP ... Just too "pretty" not to use in the campaign
Mike Huckabee put his foot in his mouth and had to retract it and apologize.
Stupidly, he asked a reporter, in a conversation about Mormonism: "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"
In a "disavowal" of the quote, he says he never expected to see the remark in print.
Then he complains that it was "characterized out of an 8,100-word story." As if, because he said 8090 other words in the interview, those 10 words don't count.
What is it with politicians that they always pitch a fit when their own words are quoted publicly? A nd why do they think that "I never expected to see it in print" is an excuse?
Good grief. If Huckabee thinks he is smart enough to be President, he should be smart enough to know that if he says things to a reporter during an interview, they could end up in print.
And instead of the excuses and rationalizations, why not just come out and say "It was a stupid thing to say, and I apologize. I don't know much about Mormonism."?
I would think more of him if he didn't try to make excuses.
Most Democrats like Huckabee as a Republican nominee because either he's moderate-liberal on too many issues or they think he will be easily K.O.ed in the general election. That's enough for me to think Huckabee's poison to the GOP.
"So Huckabee is an "easy kill"? Don't believe it. He has to get nominated first, and that won't be easy. But if he does, he will be formidable in a general election, just like that other Razorback.
"...did they really think that the 69-year-old "cowboy" ex-actor - not yet known as "The Great Communicator" - would be the easiest Republican to beat?
But we all know this for sure: Reagan carried 44 of 50 states in the election against Carter. So the moral of the story is that predictions from hired-gun spin doctors are not to be trusted."
Don't you, the Huckabee fan, know about his support for the Unfair Tax? You know, the sales tax that is supposed to take the place of the income tax?
From what I have read on it, it will be 22%. Couple that with the TX sales tax (8%, a little higher/lower depending on what individual towns/counties/taxing authorities charge), and then I get to pay 30%.
Not sure how it would all work but I will give it a shot:
- income of $50,000 per year would pay about $7,500 in income tax (per IRS chart)
- if you take half of that income ($25,000) and tax it at 30%, meaning you spend half of what you make (at least half would be spent on housing, and other non-sales tax items)during the year, tax would be about $7,500 - the same
So, in order to make something more "fair", you wish to slit the throat of the economy: consumer spending.
You start taxing me 30% each time I hit a cash register, I slam my wallet shut. So do lots of people. That's not a good thing for the economy.
But hey, we don't pay an income tax...right?
I would much rather pay 15-17% of my income in taxes, with NO loopholes or exemptions, and have everyone in America do this, regardless of income, and have an IRS of maybe 100 people max. (You think the "unfair tax" gets rid of the IRS? Think again.)
So our true conservative choices are Duncan Hunter, Alan Keyes and Fred Thompson.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
Since his argument above against even considering Ron Paul a true conservative is so-convincing & intellectually-deep...And what I love about this is that invariably the worst behavior, such as name-calling with 0-actual-argument, ALWAYS comes from those who complain the loudest about the behavior of Ron Paul's supporters. Binx has caught it before, on NB, too. Heh heh...
JMR
Now that you have the list, here's the breakdown...
Tom Tancredo is a one issue candidate and he has no money.
Duncan Hunter is a true Conservative but has no money and no organization.
Alan Keyes may be a Conservative, but his style will never work with the majority of people.
Fred Thompson is a true Conservative, has money, has organization, and has already put out 6 white papers clearly stating where he is on the issues. He's the only Conservative in the race that has a shot!
Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/
Ok, ok, ok, I left off Tom Tancredo, I was trying to be nice by not raising the subject. I like Tom, on virtually all the issues except for the shrill NAU talk. I'm not buying into the hyped NAU conspiracy theory that both he and Ron Paul has latched onto. No POTUS can afford that kind of talk. I'm all for a good conspiracy theory, but I'm not POTUS material nor will I ever hold an important government job. This is almost as bad as Kucinich and the UFO thing. Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
My sentiments exactly, and I really like the guy. Just keep him busy on the illegals, he does for this subject like Inhoffe does for AGW. They may not be POTUS material, not everyone is, but that doesn't mean they can't contribute to the best of their ability. Even Phyllis Schafly, another one of my most favorite people bought into the NAU conspiracy thing. Sigh, there is a fine line between genius and insanity, I guess the line squiggles a little now and then for everyone, so we need to give people a little grace, a wink and the benefit of the doubt sometimes...
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
At the risk of AF's wrath Mormons dod believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers. There are quite a few other eye openers that Mormons dont tell ya about.
1. You include no cite whatsoever for a proposition that...
2. Huckabee literally just gave an apology to Romney (see editor's picks) for spreading. So is Huckabee wrong to offer an apology for saying what you just said, or are you wrong for saying it??
I'm not a Mormon, but I don't think it's at all ethical to distort their beliefs/faith in this way. Mitt has plenty of problems which are entirely apart from his take on religion.
JMR
Sarc ask a Mormon and they will give you a long drawn out explanation along with a prostelizing pamphlet. What kind of reference do ya want that says the LDS church believes that Jesus and Satan are brothers? Do you know anything about waht they believe or do you rally care? LOL
I know very little about Mormons. Like most humorists, I'm most-interested in the underwear. I'm also interested as a capitalist (undies might be a really-good racket for other religions -- who knows??). But even if I joke about them, I try not to really insult them, and no Mormon I've known has ever said anything about Jesus being Satan's bro. You continue to provide 0-cite, as I said, so the question remains whether YOU know anything about what they believe, not me, since you're the one who made the assertion, like it or not.
JMR
Seems to me Satan was considered one of God's children when he was an angel in heaven, before he rebelled.
Jesus incarnate is considered our brother, insofar as we are all God's children.
This is similar to the argument that Jesus was not Mary's only child, because somewhere in the New Testament there is a verse that refers to His mother and His brothers. Then a big discussion starts over what "brothers" means...is it literal, or just an expression of "family" or even "community"?
From the explanation I linked to, I think that saying Mormons believe
Jesus and Satan are "brothers" in the sense that we consider
brotherhood to be, is a stretch.
And I know you asked dan, not me, but yes, I think Huckabee needed to apologize, which in my opinion he didn't do. He equivocated. I wish he had just said "I don't know much about Mormonism, it was a stupid thing to say, and I apologize."
Instead, he took the politician's way out, and that's why I lost a little respect for him.
Update at 13:48 I stand corrected. I just read that Huckabee, on Tucker Carlson's show, said that went personally to Romney after the debate and apologized, face to face. He sounded sincere. Bravo, Mike Huckabee!
Huck first and foremost is a Baptist and should proclaim his faith and the message as loud and far as he can, no matter what. If Huck believes then he should have said yes the Mormons believe this and gone on to clarify it. I am disappointed that he did not do so. Another reason not to vote for him.
The main reason I voted for GW Bush is because he came out with a strong message about his beliefs about Christian theology. It was funny when he did so because the moderator was like the rest stunned he was forcefull as he was. He was not apologetic in them and in fact said this is it and all else is bunk.
Even though I dont like his immigration stands and some of the other things I would vote for him over any other canditate today.
I guess I'd qualify as Satan's brother, too. Another example of a really weak argument -- and I've seen plenty of 'em lately.
Anyway, despite little to no news media attention paid to it, another candidate has what I think is a well thought out statement of faith. The message is selling despite the fact that people like me feel compelled to do the media's job for them in places like this...
JMR
Sorry you think it's an argument at all; it wasn't meant to be. I
thought I was being helpful by pointing to a website; and that was just
my take on what was on the website, not necessarily my own beliefs.
Weak arguments, while weak, are still arguments by definition. They just suck because they're used as a substitute for actual debate, which requires more intellect. I just want the media to be honest about ALL the candidates' takes on faith. They've instead tried to ignore some candidates (NOT just Paul!!!) in what looks to me like a biased attempt to do the usual and help RINOs at any cost. But I have no issue with what you've said here.
JMR
You are right. When my oldest son was born, two Moron missionaries came to our house. They had gotten our names from paper. They went on with their BS for about one and a half hours. They left me the book of Moron. I read portions of it or enough to know it was a lie. When they came back I hit them on the Jesus and Satan question. They went through a line of BS but it came down to them believing that. It was based on Jesus being a created being just like Satan. Anyway I heard it from their mouths.
I wanted to thank them because it drove me to do a lot of studying on them. Most of the study was taking what was in the Bible and comparing to what was in the book of Moron.
I call them Morons because their whole belief is based on what the angel Moroni told to Joe Smith. I don't see how they get Mormon from Moroni.
I admire them for the moral stances they once took. You have to remember that Dingy Harry is a Moron. He believes in same sex marriage, abortion, all the lefties ideals.
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” General George S. Patton.
Moroni , according to the Book of Mormon was the last Nephite prophet and military commander who lived in North America in the late fourth and early fifth centuries. Latter-day Saint theology can be interpreted to mean that after his death Moroni was resurrected and became an angel. In addition to the Book of Mormon account, Joseph Smith and the Three Witnesses also testified they saw Moroni in the form of an angel of light.
Mortal life
Moroni was the son of Mormon, the prophet for whom the Book of Mormon is named. He was named after (and should not be confused with) Captain Moroni, a much earlier Book of Mormon figure.
Moroni served under his father, who was commander in chief, in the final war between the Nephites and the Lamanites, leading a group of 10,000 men. Upon the Nephites' defeat, Moroni was forced to go into hiding and to wander from place to place to avoid being killed by the victorious Lamanites. (See also Cumorah for more information on this battle.) Moroni was the last known survivor of the Nephite nation.
Moroni had been commanded by his father to complete the Nephite record which Mormon had abridged from previous records. Moroni is the ascribed author of chapters 8 and 9 of the Book of Mormon (Mormon's record within the larger Book of Mormon), the entire Book of Moroni, and the Title Page of the Book of Mormon. He is also said to have written the Book of Ether, which is primarily an abridgment of Jaredite writings but also contains extensive commentary by Moroni, especially in Ether 4, Ether 5, Ether 8, and Ether 12. Moroni was the last prophet to write in the Book of Mormon.
Moroni claimed that he had seen and spoken to Jesus face to face and that he had been shown extensive visions of the future. Speaking directly to modern-day readers of the Book of Mormon, Moroni writes, "Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing" (Mormon 8:35).
Upon completion of the record, written on Golden Plates, Moroni buried the plates in a stone box in a hill in what is now Ontario County, New York. A 12-meter granite and bronze monument to Moroni now stands on this hill, which is commonly called Cumorah.
Afterlife
According to Joseph Smith, Jr., some unspecified time after Moroni died, he was "raised again therefrom" and became the angel Moroni who visited Smith in 1823 and showed him the location of the golden plates (Smith 1838, pp. 42–43). Because Smith said he was "raised again" from the dead, it is generally assumed in Latter Day Saint theology that Moroni was resurrected
You decide based on their explanation of their theology.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
Candace, the Book of Morman is constantly being "clarified" and "defined" by the 12 apostles of the LDS church. Even from way back when the founding the book of morman and the LDS old King James Bible have been modified. It comes from their idea of scripture is true as it is "interpreted", therefore each time a new leader of teh LDS church is chosen "new relevations" direct from god are given as edicts and the LDS church and doctrine are changed forever.
No Dan. I will not be baited and if you would like to discuss it I will off line. You had no problem PM me on Keith what makes the differance now? Because you want to smear not debate. You have made up your mind what a "Mormon" believes so it is fruitless to discuss it.
Done Dude.
“The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.”
Thomas J. Jackson
I PM'ed you about Kieth because I wanted you to explain to me what the beef was. In this it is different as the whole of the community here may be intersted in what the LDS church believes in the idea taht Satabn and Jesus are brothers.
RJ a religeous extremist is anyone who has heartfelt views and black and white beliefs? You sound like the hard liners in the USSR trying to put down disent or China saying there will be only approved religions.
That said I believe all this started with Huckabee and his comment about an aspect of the Mormon religion. All I asked for was clarification and it seems like you freak out.
I agree this site is not for religous discussion per say but this particular discussion was ecerpted from what one of teh Presidential canditates said about another canditate. To me that makes it fair game and legitimate discaussion. Now that said there is some point where a discussion is beating a dead horse and should be shut down.
But it seems like true discussion about this has gone teh way of AGW- Al Gore discussions, consensus says so it is...so sayeth the Goracle.
RJ, now you are being disingenuous “You know perfectly well I'm talking about those extremists on this site who attack, veiled or openly, the religion of others” as that is exactly what those countries do, they stifle religion or the discussion of such unless it furthers the state. You probably label me as an extremist because I openly defend my faith and believe all other religions are FALSE, yes false and of Satan.
But you miss the crux of this. The crux is was Huck right the first time?
RJ you are right “aggressively attempt to prevent others from worshiping as they please”, I will be over at your house to arrest you and put you in a reeducation camp. This is to “aggressively attempt to stifle their free speech” as you put it. And in that camp we will “aggressively attempt to domineer their behavior in order to "further the state" of your religion”. We will “demand only "sanctioned" religious practices...especially from leaders”
I have seen some of your exchanges with others and wondered why they were so aggressive with you, now I know. That was among the most stupid post I have seen on this site.
I was referencing you comment about extremists. Do you hate Christians or just the idea of religion or some person who has rock solid beliefs?
Go back and read your ridiculous, illogical non-sequiturs in the thread. My favorite is that because I said that attacks on the religions of others should be banned you managed to equate me with China and the USSR.
LOL! Youse guys will say absolutely anything to deny your bigotry. So now you're whining because I threw it right back at you.
:^)
I will say, though, that I've noticed the way youse guys uniformly share the same inablity to stay with a logical argument. Must be something to do with emotionalism (feeeelings) dominating your psyches.
An anti-Mormon web site? There you go, a real good source.
Well that does it guys. I am done with this site. I use to love coming to Newsbusters and enjoy debate but this is an insult.
I have never attacked your faiths at anytime but it seems to me you just can't resist. If being of your faith to attack anothers then I want nothing to do with you.
If in my time here I have offended you I apoligize. I forgive you but I will no longer associate myself with.
Good bye.
“The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.”
Thomas J. Jackson
RJ there were no bigots in reference to the LDS, we wanted clarification. AF if you leave then leave but don't use the reason about being insulted. If you need to set the record straight do so.
There are many on this site that differ in ideas in Christian theologies. We discuss and clarify but dont stamp our feet, cry foul and go home like Bill Clinton did on the FNC or like teh Dims are doing by boycotting the FNC.
So, there are people who differ in opinion, and who have offended you (heck, ever seen Leon's posts to me? they're unreal...) but that's sort of the beauty of this site, like my hometown NYC, where everyone is so different but manages to coexist and not kill each other.
Hey, here's a great idea...let's go after all the Catholics next! And then those crazy holly rollers! And then anyone who isn't just like Mike Huckabee! NewsBusters can be the website that exposes "anything except Southern Baptist" bias in the media.
I'm writing off your names with Keith and Leon. We may all have our own ideas about Mormonism (not saying I agree with everything AF says), but embarrassing Air Force off this site with day-in-and-day-out criticism was not very nice.
I hate to see you go, especially over people who simply cannot stand to let others believe as they believe.
I have known too many Mormons to consider them as anything other than good people who, like so many of us, no matter our religious background, are only trying to do what's right for themselves and their families.
Thus, to see all this anti-Mormon rhetoric is to me nothing less than idiotic.
AF, I too, wish you would reconsider. Like I've said before, I left the Mormon Church over 40 years ago, so I am hardly what one would call a Mormon apologist. But, it annoys me greatly for ignorant bigots to make statements based on ignorance about your or anyone else's faith. Mormons, both the Church and the individuals, have some good teachings. Most Mormons I know have a work ethic that won't quit, and are honest, productive people. There are exceptions to that rule *cough*Harry Reid*cough*.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
NEW
YORK — Federal authorities have subpoenaed financial records and
employees in an apparent probe of the Rev. Al Sharpton’s 2004
presidential bid, nonprofit civil rights group, and for-profit
businesses, a newspaper reported Thursday.
As many as 10 Sharpton associates were subpoenaed Wednesday to testify
before a federal grand jury in Brooklyn Dec. 26, his lawyer told the
Daily News.
They were told to provide investigators with financial records from the
campaign and roughly six Sharpton-related businesses, as well as
personal financial documents of Sharpton and his wife, the newspaper
said.
The FBI and Internal Revenue Service are seeking the records, which go back to 2001, according to the Daily News.
A Sharpton spokeswoman did not immediately return phone calls or e-mail messages early Thursday.
(As many as 10 people were subpoenaed, Redding said. The court papers
also sought a wide range of financial records, from invoices of
expenses paid by cash to cash receipts to bad debt records from the
years 2001 to 2007.
Sharpton’s quixotic run for the Democratic presidential nomination has
raised questions of financial impropriety - including charges that he
spent campaign funds on swanky hotels.
In April 2005, Sharpton denied allegations that he failed to report
tens of thousands of dollars in campaign cash to the Federal Election
Committee.
Sharpton’s associates were summoned to testify before the grand jury on
the morning after Christmas. The subpoenas additionally called for them
to provide the IRS with all financial records from the campaign and a
half-dozen Sharpton-related businesses.) CRAWFISH NOTE: Is the free ride over at last for the
race hustlers? Ever wonder how preachers with no church (apparently)
can jet the country and live like congressional royalty? Does your
preacher have 6 side businesses? Ever wonder where the money comes from
or who pays their bills? Is your preacher anything like these two
self-appointed spokespersons? WWJD?
So the FBI and IRS finally finally finally got around to checking the
“cash flow”… shucks. Talk about a CYA scramble now. Merry Christmas.
Expect the “r” word defense (or playing the victim) before a week goes
by…
If Mormons ran around saying "Baptists think it's okay to be a criminal cause you'll go to heaven anyway" that would be a stretch and distortion of one of their well-intentioned beliefs and Huckabee would be quick to point it out.
NOT here to debate Baptist doctrine. That was an example of how a well-meaning idea can be twisted around.
Until we get a black-and-white explanation on that, we shouldn't keep spreading it as a rumor.
No wrath Dan just get your facts straight. We do not believe it, take my word.
Eye openers, yes there are some eye openers but isn't that what religion is supose to do? Open your eyes?
Just to let you know, I was a convert to the LDS faith. I did not grow up in it. I come from a very strong religious, in fact evangelical to be exact, background. I have used and heard everything that some people on this site have used to smear the LDS faith. It is the nature of men to attack those things they do not understand.
You want to know about it PM me but I'm done with the doctrune discussed on the thread.
“The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.”
Thomas J. Jackson
AF its funny that the LDS members I talk to believe it. It stems from the belief that God is only one god in a long line of gods and Jesus and Satan are both gods equal in their own right. At least thats how it was explained to me. AF PM's are great but nothing brings out truth lijke the light. If you have a different opinion then bring it into the light.
Jeez, AF, you've got your nerve.....don't contradict....dan is telling you what you believe, for crying out loud!!
<sarc off>
Notice that when you say "we" don't believe it, he says not so, because he knows others that do. Makes you wonder, doesn't it, if he's going to go back to them now and tell them they are wrong, because he heard from someone (you) that it's not true?
"Mormons ...believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers." Can we examine that for a moment?
Let's assume that 1) God exists, 2) He created the Universe (including all living beings, whether spirit or flesh), 3) Jesus is real, 4) Satan is real.
From these assumptions, if God created all of the Universe, He created Jesus (the firstborn of Creation) and He created the one who rebelled against Him and became Satan. They had the same Father, therefore, they are brothers.
But, if you read the first chapter of Collosians, where Paul is talking about the Christ, Christ "is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: ...all things have been created through him (still talking about Jesus), and unto him..." So, from this, one could conclude that God created Jesus, then God directed or used Jesus to create the rest of the universe. Therefore, Jesus is Satan's creator or father, and Satan is God's grandson.
Note: in the Bible account, Satan became Satan of his own free choice. He chose to rebel against God. He was not created the Prince of Darkness and the Father of Lies, but chose that path for himself. If the Mormons believe Satan and Jesus to be brothers, they have a very good case. Unless you wish to posit that there were more than one Creator, one Who created Jesus, and another who created Satan. Is that what you wish to claim?
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it. ……
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1
Jesus has always been, is, and will always be God. He came to dwell among us: verse 14.
Satan is a fallen angel (Lucifer), not human, not God.
The Mormons believe that god the father (who was once a man, as was his father, grandfather, greatgrandfather etc.) had with his heavenly wife a son Jesus (also a man who becomes a god). As with them, you a man, can become a god.
As for Satan, not sure what they believe he is. But in no way is he Jesus' brother.
Two different Jesus', two different faiths.
v
5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
In the beginning was the Word (or Logos), and the Word (Logos)was with the God (capitalized Theos), and a god (theos not capitalized) [or, divine] was the Word (Logos).
So, the Logos and the God (ho Theos) were/are not the same being. And, if you wish to continue reading John, "Through it (the Logos) everything was done; and without it (the Logos) not even one thing was done, which has been done." Which just reinforces Colossians.
If you wish to continue, pm me. If not, okay.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
I frequent other areas on the web like Michelle Malkin, Hot Air, Little Green Footballs, Ace of Spades and some websites for news agencies that allow comments. I have noticed a pattern develop within the last two weeks. The Romney supporters have become militant. They take people on and call them bigots regularly now. They stomp and say they won't vote Republican if Huckabee wins. There was an election poll done by Grassfire and the discussion about the poll in Grassfire's forum was ugly. The Romney supporters accused Steve Elliot of being in the tank for Huckabee. They also accused someone of freeping the poll for Huckabee.
How did this happen? How did the Romney supporters become so negative? I am puzzled and unhappy this is happening and its almost like watching the Paulbots come unglued. Please, Fred-heads, don't do this to me. I just joined the team and don't want to reconsider now so close to the caucus.
"We are going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." Hillary Clinton, 6-28-04 San Francisco
Call'em like I see them V. And that goes both ways as militant is concerned is it not V. You have been on a one person assault on Romney and Latter Day Saints.
V on the phone: Kettle this V, your black! <Click>
The glass house one comes to mind too.
“The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.”
Thomas J. Jackson
"How did this happen? How did the Romney supporters become so negative?" Well, RC, if your religion was attacked and slandered by a bunch of ignorant bigots, I imagine you would get a bit testy yourself. As I said before, I left the Mormon Church over 40 years ago, so I know some, not all, about Mormon beliefs. I have seen those beliefs distorted, twisted, and outright lied about on this site. Some of the posters, even those I thought would know better, seem to be of the opinion that Romney intends to set up a Mormon theocracy in this country. That ain't happening. It couldn't happen because it wouldn't get past Congress, the Supreme Court, or the people.
If you want to know what a Mormon believes, either read the Book of Mormon or ask a Mormon elder. Don't ask a Catholic or a Muslim or anyone else. Conversely, if you want to know what the Catholic Church believes, read the Catholic Encyclopedia or ask a priest. (I would not ask a Catholic about Church doctrine, because from personal experience I can say not all of them know what the Church teaches. For example, I had one Catholic try to tell me original sin was sex. It took a priest to settle the argument: the original sin was disobedience.)
I do not support Romney for the office of President of the United States, not because he is a Mormon, but because he is on the wrong side of some issues that are important to me, and has shown inconsistency on various issues. I think Romney's belief in God is a positive thing even though his beliefs and mine on the matter do not coincide. My top two preferred candidates are Duncan Hunter and Fred Thompson. I don't know what religion either of them are, nor do I care. I prefer them because of their positions on issues.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
All this whining from the Romney camp makes me want to hurl!!! They created the situation they're in, and now they're still trying to play the victim card. I'm sorry to say that the only MSM guy to figure this all out is Juan Williams!!!
Let's go back to the first time Romney's religion was ever an issue. It was when one guy, one, at a miniscule press conference, asked him about his being a Morman. One guy, one question, one press conference. The next thing you know, you've got Hannity and the rest of the guys on FNC falling all over themselves to interview Romney and ask his opinion about "all this criticism" (what criticism... it was one dang guy!!!) that he's taking about being a Morman.
At that point, Romney could have ended the whole issue by saying what he said last week, and saying that it doesn't mean a thing to him and it shouldn't mean anything to the voters. Shut the door, move along, there's nothing to see here. Instead, he sees an opportunity to paint himself as a victim, and he jumps onto the religious bigotry express with both feet. If an interviewer doesn't bring it up, he brought it up. He pushed it and pushed it as an agenda, and now he's acting all miffed because it's grown too big for him to handle. He wants to turn off the discussion because it's hurting him now, but it's beyond his control now. As far as I'm concerned, the guy is reaping what he sowed.
Your memory is conveniently selective. The media sniping at Romney's religion has been going on for a long time. Many times, right here at NB we've discussed that it has been the obvious intent of the media to MAKE it into an issue.
Romney didn't want to give "the speech" and in fact did it against the advice of his campaign staffers.
Instead of inventing your personal history of the circumstances, why not just admit you don't like Romney?
Leon, was this attack done by Al-Qaeda or Iran? I thought Iraq was a "civil war"?
Here's a cool story for all you Cubs fans out there!
And finally, today is the birthday for two actors with kick-ass names: Van Heflin and Curd Jurgens. Speaking of Curd, today is also the birthday of ice-skater Lynn-Holly Johnson. They both have appears in Bond films, Johnson in For Your Eyes Only and Jurgens as uber-villian Stromberg in The Spy Who Loved Me.
Wow, how did I miss that?
I saw "Barbarella" in the theatre way back in the mid-70's (they must have re-released or something) and she was muy caliente! Now she is muy saggymente!
She was still pretty hot in the late 70's.... and I came "this close" (making a this-close gesture, yes :p) to acting with her in that movie with Kathryn Hepburng and her dad. I'm forgettting the name, but I auditioned a few times for the kid in it.
Ah! "On Golden Pond", and she wears a bikini in one scene....
A friend of mine worked as an assistant producer on "On Golden Pond", which was filmed a few miles to the north of me on Squam Lake in New Hampshire. She says Kate was a real pain in the butt...until she got to know her better.
The locals up here recently celebrated the 25th anniversary of the film's release. The guy who wrote the original play, and later did the screenplay, Ernie Thompson, has a huge spread about 5 miles south of where the movie was filmed.
Got to tell you, I was raised not far from Boliva NC in Brunswick Co. NC. I will call my brother down there a get more info on the "Beast of Bolivia". Should be fun.
“The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.”
Thomas J. Jackson
Why oh WHY does Harry Reid and company think that Congress can legislate the USA off of our dependence on OIL ?
Massive Ethanol legislation ain't the Answer, Ethanol does NOT travel via Pipelines, it's a "no workie". Passing new CAFE standards isn't going to work, another attempt to Legislation Mechanical inventions.
Let the maketplace work, Pass some Drilling legislation and let the Car makers and Mechanical Genius do their thing. Show some Reality based legislation, not "pie in the sky" back to the "55 MPH interstate model" legislation.
Too bad this current crop of losers won't be in office much longer to have "Measurement" feed back on this latest Energy "miracle" Legislation.
What good is a Free Press, if it is a False Press ? David Foote GoE
Looking and being Presidential are totally different. What I want to see is their record. This is how I vote, not because someone is handsome or has great hair. Aaaaaaargh!
Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/
I bet they didn't use that phrase around President Lincoln when he was running. I'm with you, I don't like it either. Put it right next to "gravitas" in the rhetorical graveyard please.
"We are going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." Hillary Clinton, 6-28-04 San Francisco
When the talk increased about Lincoln running for president he went to New York to make his famous Cooper Union speech to the eastern Republicans. People liked what they heard about him but really didn't know what he looked like. When they saw him they were aghast--here was a tall, thin, gangly, not attractive man wearing highwater pants and he was running for President?
And when he began to speak his voice was high pitched and obnoxious and the audience flinched, but within minutes he got into his rhythm and when he finished he brought the people to their feet.
Moral--back then it was ideas that first got a voter's attention, then appearance, then ideas again. Nowadays it's appearance, ideas, appearance.
Now, as Congress struggles to adjourn for Christmas, relations between House Democrats and their colleagues in the Senate have devolved into finger-pointing.
House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles B. Rangel (D-N.Y.) accuses Senate Democratic leaders of developing "Stockholm syndrome," showing sympathy to their Republican captors by caving in on legislation to provide middle-class tax cuts paid for with tax increases on the super-rich, tying war funding to troop withdrawal timelines, and mandating renewable energy quotas. If Republicans want to filibuster a bill, Rangel said, Reid should keep the bill on the Senate floor and force the Republicans to talk it to death.
Reid, in turn, has taken to the Senate floor to criticize what he called the speaker's "iron hand" style of governance.
Democrats in each chamber are now blaming their colleagues in the other for the mess in which they find themselves. The predicament caused the majority party yesterday surrender to President Bush on domestic spending levels, drop a cherished renewable-energy mandate and move toward leaving a raft of high-profile legislation, from addressing the mortgage crisis to providing middle-class tax relief, undone or incomplete.
So the questions remain, will Congress send W 11 appropriation bills today or tomorrow which he finds acceptable to sign? Will Congress shut down the Federal Government tomorrow for a lack of agreement on what to send to the POTUS for signature? Will they attempt an omibus spending bill instead of the 11 remaining appropriation bills? Will W sign such a bill if it has any pork or other objectional items in it? Given that W has already vetoed S-CHIP for the second time, I'm betting W will veto any omibus spending bill.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
Things get better for everyone whan the govt isn't "working" (there's a misnomer) - expeciall the demolibs, who don't know what work is - "Work!" (Maynard G. Crebbs)
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dadV
"In my lecture on religion and the arts in America earlier this year at Colorado College, I argued that secular humanism has failed, that the avant-garde is dead, and that liberals must start acknowledging the impoverished culture that my 1960s generation has left to the young. ATHEISM ALONE IS A ROTTING CORPSE.........it is selfish and shortsighted for liberals to automatically define religion as a social problem that needs suppression or eradication. Without spirituality in some form, people will anesthetize themselves with drink or drugs -- including the tranquilizers that seem near universal among the status-addled professional class of the Northeastern elite......Secularism evidently cannot stimulate creativity as profoundly as religion does -- whether in the artist's soaring affirmation or angry resistance......Religion has become a prophetic voice crying in the wilderness against our Hollywood Babylon."
Great musician, nasty person from most accounts. Ike passed away yesterday at the age of 76. I'm surprised he lived that long. But he was a Founding Father of sorts of Rock 'n Roll. He played on what is usually credited as being the first rock 'n roll record, "Rocket 88" recorded in 1951 by Jackie Brenston and His Delta Cats. Ike was one of the Cats. Always liked Ike's music, never had much use for Tina. Of course, he made her what she was. RIP Ike.
Everyone got so wrapped up in Fred not towing the moderators line, that most missed the best quote from the debate...
“‘When the enemies of this country are at the negotiating table, who do you want representing you? Whoever that guy is, that’s the guy you ought to vote for President.”
-Fred Thompson in today’s Des Moines Register debate
Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/
BALI, Indonesia - Nobel laureate Al Gore accused the United States on Thursday of blocking progress at the U.N. climate conference, and European nations threatened to boycott U.S.-led climate talks next month unless Washington compromises on emissions reductions.
The former vice president urged delegates to take urgent action to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases blamed for global warming, and told them that the next U.S. president will likely be more supportive of international caps on polluting gases.
"My own country, the United States, is principally responsible for obstructing progress here in Bali," said Gore, who flew (on a commercial flight no doubt) to Bali from Oslo, Norway, where he received the Nobel Peace Prize for helping alert the world to the danger of climate change.
I forgot about Rush, another band that deserves it. There have been numerous acts that have been inducted who have had less of an inpact than those bands(Patti Smith, Bob Seger, Brenda Lee, and Steely Friggin Dan come to mind).
Metallica is another. I believe "Kill em All" came out in '83, right? 2008 is 25 years. Induct Metallica!
I've nothing against the Monkees, but they'll probably never get in, as they started out as a pre-fab group. On their first album, as I recall, only Mike Nesmith played on every song-the rest was studio musicians.
It wasn't until their great album "Headquarters" that they all played for themselves. HQ was just reissued this year BTW.
Yes, but how many respected Motown groups were also pre-fab? I realize they probably won't get in, despite the impressive body of work they did in a relatively short time... but I think they should.
Genesis absolutely should get in. Not only a huge influential group with both artistic and commercial success, but it spawned successful solo careers for Peter Gabriel, Phil Collins, Mike + the Mechanics, Steve Hackett (& GTR).
*****
"There are no stupid questions. Only stupid people who ask questions." - Chris Berman
Hey, this year's inductees The Ventures started playing in the late 1950s, so have had to wait as long as anyone!
And the Dave Clark 5 were one of the 1964 British Invasion bands. Dave Clark was one smart cookie-he early on bought the rights to all of his stuff, and still controls it.
And now, the alleged leaked list of players from the Mitchell report who used performance enhancing pharmeceuticals in baseball. Some expected (the Cansecos), a few surprises (Albert Pujols) and two dead (Caminiti, Kile). Thoughts?:
Brady Anderson
Manny Alexander
Rick Ankiel
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Aaron Boone
Rafael Bettancourt
Bret Boone
Milton Bradley
David Bell
Dante Bichette
Albert Belle
Paul Byrd
Wil Cordero
Ken Caminiti
Mike Cameron
Ramon Castro
Jose Canseco
Ozzie Canseco
Roger Clemens
Paxton Crawford
Wilson Delgado
Lenny Dykstra
Johnny Damon
Carl Everett
Kyle Farnsworth
Ryan Franklin
Troy Glaus
Rich Garces
Jason Grimsley
Juan Gonzalez
Eric Gagne
Nomar Garciaparra
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Jose Guillen
Jay Gibbons
Juan Gonzalez
Clay Hensley
Jerry Hairston
Felix Heredia, Jr.
Darren Holmes
Wally Joyner
Darryl Kile
Matt Lawton
Raul Mondesi
Mark McGwire
Guillermo Mota
Robert Machado
Damian Moss
Abraham Nunez
Trot Nixon
Jose Offerman
Andy Pettitte
Mark Prior
Neifi Perez
Rafael Palmiero
Albert Pujols
Brian Roberts
Juan Rincon
John Rocker
Pudge Rodriguez
Sammy Sosa
Scott Schoenweis
David Segui
Alex Sanchez
Gary Sheffield
Miguel Tejada
Julian Tavarez
Fernando Tatis
Maurice Vaughn
Jason Varitek
Ismael Valdez
Matt Williams
Kerry Wood
*****
"There are no stupid questions. Only stupid people who ask questions." - Chris Berman
Looks like Canseco's book, which was greeted by many whines, moans, and denials, was dead-on about the extent of steriod-use in baseball. Color me not-surprised...
JMR
Robert Machado? I guess the results of steroid use aren't foolproof. ("In a nine-year career, Machado was a .230 hitter with 11 home runs and 61 RBI in 230 games." - Wikipedia.)
"*****
"There are no stupid questions. Only stupid people who ask questions." - Chris Berman
That explains why the Pirates have been the "Succos" for so long. The only Pirates on the list are Abraham Nunez (who was a crappy utility infielder in the early 2000's), Jose Guillen (2+ seasons) and Raul Mondesi (who played 26 games with the Succos).
Shocking.
This person should be deported as a traitor. He goes to Bali and tells everyone that we are screwing the world.
Irresponsible and vindictive quotes:
"My own country, the United States, is principally responsible for obstructing progress here in Bali," said Gore, who flew to Bali from Oslo, Norway, where he received the Nobel Peace Prize for helping alert the world to the danger of climate change."
"Over the next two years, the United States is going to be somewhere it is not now," he said. "I must tell you candidly that I cannot promise that the person who is elected will have the position I expect they will have, but I can tell you I believe it is quite likely."
This man does not deserve to speak for us from a foreign shore, and base his comments on his demented thoughts which are arrogant and self serving.
There are laws about this sort of thing. Why do we have to put up with this kind of nonsense?
No powder-blue tonight...but...if you look arond my apartment hard enough, you'll find plenty of the pre-1997 gear. Most notable are my coffee cup, and a mug. I've been a fan for over 20 years now. :-)
Four hundred miles. The cost of tickets. The aggravation of parking in downtown Houston and taking the light rail to the game. And THIS is the thanks I get!!!
Well, hell, let's look on the bright side of a train wreck!
I wanted a situation like in 2001, when the Broncos beat the Cowgirls at TX Stadium, and I got to walk out of the stadium telling off all of the losers.
As I did not get that, there IS no bright side.
Oh yeah, except for this: yesterday was a testament to how weak the Texan fans are. They were all scurrying for the exits to begin the fourth, instead of enjoying the entire game. Look, I know from personal experience that Loop 610, Kirby Dr and Fannin St all SUCK, but come on! Show a smidgen of loyalty!
CONCORD, N.H. -- Bill Shaheen has resigned as co-chairman of Hillary Rodham Clinton's presidential campaign, reported WMUR-TV in Manchester, N.H.
The resignation comes in the midst of fallout over comments Shaheen made regarding candidate Barack Obama's past drug use.
Shaheen earlier said he regrets having made the comments.
In an interview with The Washington Post, Shaheen said the Democratic party should beware of picking Obama as its candidate because Republicans could dredge up his past.
In his memoir, "Dreams from My Father," Obama wrote that as a teen he smoked marijuana and drank alcohol, and occasionally would snort cocaine.
The Clinton campaign said it had nothing to do with the comments, and Shaheen himself is now backing away from them.
The Armed Forces Journal had some tough words for all of you conservatives that support waterboarding, aka torture.
They went for the throats of faux conservative, Giuliani & our newest scumbag AG, Mukasey concerning their support of torture.
Let AFJ be crystal clear on a subject where these men are opaque: Waterboarding is a torture technique that has its history rooted in the Spanish Inquisition. In 1947, the U.S. prosecuted a Japanese military officer for carrying out a form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian during World War II.
Waterboarding inflicts on its victims the terror of imminent death. And as with all torture techniques, it is, therefore, an inherently flawed method for gaining reliable information. In short, it doesn’t work. That blunt truth means all U.S. leaders, present and future, should be clear on the issue.
I'm going to listen to them over all these other nancies like Giuliani.
Waterboarding = torture, and America doesn't torture. End of story.
In 1947, the U.S. prosecuted a Japanese military officer for carrying out a form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian during World War II.
Fake and rather opaque comparison. Civilians were expressly protected by the Rules of War against mal-treatment. So therefore that cannot equate with captured fighters not following the Rules of War, aka the Geneva Conventions.
Had the Japanese captured a U.S. spy or a member of the military out of uniform, they would actually have been protected in dealing out summary punishment, including death.
However -- it was the treatment of U.S., British, Australian, New Zealand, and other Commonwealth military captured in uniform on the battlefields which constituted war crimes.
And, of course, the gross cruelty, starvation, murder and general mistretament of civilians which is prosecutable.
I'm shocked that such an august organ would seek to mislead with that comparison. A very opaque argument indeed, from them.
Check out my exclusive edit of BBC News America's interview with Mrs Clinton: It's news to me!
"In 1947, the U.S. prosecuted a Japanese military officer for carrying out a form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian during World War II."
Yukio Asano
Defendant: Asano, Yukio
Docket Date: 53/ May 1 - 28, 1947, Yokohama, Japan
Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.
Specifications:beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward
Waterboarding inflicts on its victims the terror of imminent death. And as with all torture techniques, it is, therefore, an inherently flawed method for gaining reliable information. In short, it doesn’t work. That blunt truth means all U.S. leaders, present and future, should be clear on the issue.
Waterboarding makes tight-lipped terrorists talk. At least three major al-Qaida leaders reportedly have been waterboarded, most notably Khalid Sheik Mohammed.
KSM, as intelligence agencies call him, directed the Sept. 11 attacks, which killed 2,978 people and injured at least 7,356. "I am the head of the al- Qaida military committee," he told Al Jazeera in April 2002. "And yes, we did it." While some doubt his claim, KSM reportedly said, "I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew Daniel Pearl in the City of Karachi, Pakistan."
After U.S. and Pakistani authorities captured KSM in 2003, he stayed mum for months. Interrogators eventually waterboarded him — for just 90 seconds. KSM "didn't resist," one CIA veteran said in the Aug. 13 New Yorker. "He sang right away."
KSM's revelations helped authorities arrest at least six major terrorists:
Read the article, apparently someone at the AFJ is playing at revisionist history which then leads us to the snarky comment about conservatives. and BTW, Americans following the rules of War concerning captured soldiers never guarranteed the safety of Americans who were captured. WWII and Gulf War I taught that lesson repeatedly. Please spare us the "high moral ground argument of us lowering ourselves or compromising our values", scaring the crap out of someone is not anywhere in the same league as pulling out finger nails, putting electric wires to a persons genetalia, etc. which was done to our troops. When you purposefully murder 3000 civilians (non combatants) you lose any protection of the criminal legal system never mind the rules of War.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
dscotty -- the fact is, torture does work in eliciting information.
The McCain example is bogus because the N.Vietnamese were not trying to get info when they tortured him and fellow GI's for years.
They did it just to torment their helpless captives.
That's the nauseating hypocrisy of liberals. They have to say torture doesn't work because it would force them to admit an ugly truth.
Now I can respect someone who says they would never use torture even they know it would get info which could save one, ten, hundreds, or thousands of lives -- well not really, but I would respect their honesty.
However I will never respect liberals who use bogus "claims" to justify not acting to save innnocent live. They are the immoral ones.
So come on liberals, admit it. You would rather see innocent lives lost than disturb your own sensitive sensibilities..
Check out my exclusive edit of BBC News America's interview with Mrs Clinton: It's news to me!
Waterboarding = torture, and America doesn't torture. End of story. Unless, of course, the government announced that torture was being carried out in the name of "social justice". In which case you would volunteer to help, as would countless Leftists.
(I wonder if we can keep the POWs/enemy combatants at the Waldorf Astoria instead? I bet even then that the Leftists would whine that the idea of them being denied room service there would be "torture", as convoluted as their definition of "torture" is.)
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All I can say is WOW!
December 13, 2007 - 11:13 ET by MightyMouthThis is how a Riot should be staged in the US of A.
h/t Ann Coulter.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
MM, your link doesn't
December 13, 2007 - 12:39 ET by motherbeltMM, your link doesn't work.
Ooops...
December 13, 2007 - 12:50 ET by MightyMouthSorry, try this one. It's also on Coulters site.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Nice link
December 13, 2007 - 13:22 ET by well99That was cool.
wow MM
December 13, 2007 - 13:26 ET by candanceThis country's being torn in half thanks to our government doing nothing about our problems. Vigilanteeism is happening more and more.
MM, I watched most of the
December 13, 2007 - 13:38 ET by MikeBMM, I watched most of the video, then searched for "Joe Horn", as I did not know the name. Wikipedia says, "This article is about the American athlete. For Joe Horn the psychology professor, see Joseph M. Horn. For the guy who shot two people in Texas, see Joe Horn (murderer)." Real classy, huh?
From everything I've read, at the very worst, Mr. Horn could only be guilty of manslaughter. In my opinion, it was a justifiable homicide. Had that been my house the two slimebags were burlarizing, I would be thanking Mr. Horn, and trying to give him comfort. He did nothing wrong. Perhaps what he did wasn't right, but it sure wasn't wrong. The only wrongdoers in the story were the two rectal orifices who committed the burglary.
Ain't it funny how everyone bellyaches about people not wanting to "get involved", yet when somebody does get involved and stops a crime, those same bellyachers gripe about that, too?
If the Castle doctrine does not cover this type situation, then a new law needs to be written that will. Mr. Horn was entirely justified. His first action was to call the Police. When the police couldn't or wouldn't arrive in time to handle the situation, Mr. Horn handled it, and handled it well. Here are two "undocumented Americans" who will no longer break any laws.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
I agree MikeB...
December 13, 2007 - 13:48 ET by MightyMouthNot murder but not strictly self defense either, I'm not totally sure what to call it... but "murder" ain't it.
WRT wiki "For the guy who shot two people in Texas" ..at first I thought must be someone in MSM added that...unitl
"see Joe Horn (murderer)"
then I knew for sure it was a bleeding heart liberal. Guilty until proven innocent I suppose.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Joe Horn murderer?
December 13, 2007 - 14:41 ET by candanceI would never have the guts to shoot someone, and ethically speaking Joe Horn walked a tight rope, but legally he had a right because those other guys put themselves in that situation.
No, he's a far cry from a murderer. I love how a crazed gunman shooting a church is "troubled" but a vigilante stopping a pack of theives is a "cold blooded killer."
Someone needs to report that to Wiki and have them make it more neutral. That's the REAL reason why the rest of world thinks we're so corrupt.
Candance, I would not
December 13, 2007 - 15:58 ET by MikeBCandance, I would not classify Mr. Horn as a vigilante. He first called the police to handle the situation. When they could not, or would not, he handled it. If the two *$$holes had stopped in their tracks, they would be alive today. If Mr. Horn had been a vigilante, he would have plugged them, then called the police.
Whoever authored that entry in Wiki should be sued for slander.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
Thanks, great video. I had
December 13, 2007 - 14:16 ET by motherbeltThanks, great video. I had gone to Ann's site, but didn't know what I was looking for.
Thank you MightyMouth!
December 13, 2007 - 19:45 ET by sentforth5That was awesome! Never give up on the American spirit!
Are your feet cold?
December 13, 2007 - 11:18 ET by OldSailor88I think hell froze over last night.
Either that, or we're succeeding in getting our message out. Have you read Drudge yet today? Center column headlines are nice.
Here's a quote from the USAToday article...
"On the Republican side, the White House has been busy making excuses for the Iraqi government's failure to move toward national reconciliation (which is the goal of the troop surge), and it has lowered the benchmarks for success to the level of irrelevance. That translates into reduced accountability, continued dependency and an open-ended commitment. Lowering the bar for the Iraqi government sends a message that Baghdad can enjoy security paid for in American lives, and reconstruction aid paid by America's taxpayers, and ignore its responsibilities.
Congressional Democrats, meanwhile, seem lost in a time warp. They could try to impose new benchmarks that acknowledge the military progress. Instead, too many seem unable or unwilling to admit that President Bush's surge of 30,000 more troops has succeeded beyond their initial predictions. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., who in the spring declared the war lost, said last week that "the surge hasn't accomplished its goals." Anti-war Democrats remain fixated on tying war funding to a rapid troop withdrawal. Yet pulling the troops out precipitously threatens to squander the progress of recent months toward salvaging a decent outcome to the Iraq debacle.
What's needed is acknowledgment that the surge is achieving what was intended: not complete military victory but enough stability to make political compromise possible. What's missing is Iraqi will to take advantage of the success."
This stuff is right on the money. Now we just have to find a Republican with some stones that can jam this to the forefront and make things happen.
Dingy Harry should be
December 13, 2007 - 11:54 ET by motherbeltDingy Harry should be routinely referred to as Sen. Harry ("This war is lost") Reid, D(featist)- Nevada
MB - I wouldn't refer to him at all!
December 13, 2007 - 13:03 ET by FastEdJust make note that some sen from NV said something of NO importance - people will figure out who you're talking about.
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad V
If Nevada ever gets an
December 13, 2007 - 17:03 ET by MikeBIf Nevada ever gets an honest and competent investigation going on land fraud and other activities of the Reid family out there, we might be referring to Harry as "convict number 587666". Now, there's a happy thought.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
In another sign of Dem civility...
December 13, 2007 - 11:26 ET by Prester John....Charlie Rangel this morning on CNBC accused the Republicans in the Senate of "kidnapping" the entire government tax/spending process for daring to use parliamentary procedures in the Senate to force the Dems to back down on raising taxes in order to "pay" for the reduction in taxes from amending the AMT. The Senate vote on the AMT was 88-5 and he accused the Dems in the Senate of suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome" for their Republican "captors".
The hosts on CNBC were so startled by that comment they didn't know what to say and just let out a nervous laugh.
Dem civility
December 13, 2007 - 11:47 ET by arbin82Where is the outrage in Rangel's comments? Glad to see they are holding him accountable like the MSM is with Huckabee.
Rangel either really hates
December 13, 2007 - 12:47 ET by motherbeltRangel either really hates Republicans, or is just a master at saying outrageous things to get attention. Remember his most famous comment about Republicans being racist, because their tax cuts, would, in his view, hurt minorities: "they don't say "Spic" or "Nigger" [sic] any more, they just say "Let's cut taxes."
According to Rangel, using parliamentary procedures ( as in shutting off debate) is only legitimate if done by Democrats. Otherwise, it's a hijacking of the process.
Rangel is whining, that's a
December 13, 2007 - 12:07 ET by dscottRangel is whining, that's a good sign. However, what Rangel really wanted was for the AMT to not be indexed so the Dems could get their tax increase without having to vote for it. The Senate vote derailed his plan, this talk of offsetting the AMT fix or abolishing it with paygo was simply theater to give them cover for the tax increase. Hahaha Charlie, do you have the nerve to try again in 2008? I guess that will depend if a Dem gets elected in Nov right? Then you'll have the cover of all Dems taking responsibility not just a few.
You see, the Senate Dems know full well that if they didn't index the AMT for 2007 tax filers, tax payers would be socked with a tax increase in the run up to the Nov 2008 election, that's dangerous politics.
BTW - folks, Tomorrow the Federal Government must begin shutting down as the Continuing budget resolution ends December 14th. So either they pass another Continuing Resolution or they totally cave to W on the budget because we know at this point W is not going along with their usual compromise extortion attempts. W vetoed the S-CHIP bill again!
Why has the MSM been quiet about this???????? I suspect they are terrified their favorite political party, the Dems are going to get blamed so they are loathe to put any heat at all that might make the Dem leadership look as incompetent as they are. We have never had the federal budget not settled so late like this before, it's a record breaker and the MSM have slinked and tip toed around the issue by just focusing on W vetoing S-CHIP.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
You know, everyone thinks
December 13, 2007 - 14:48 ET by motherbeltYou know, everyone thinks when the Democrats talk about "the rich" they mean other people. Maybe it would be a good idea to leave it unindexed for inflation. Then when all those "working families" the Democrats pretend to champion find out that they are in the group the Democrats call "the rich" there would be hell to pay.
And the MSM won't cover the "shutdown" any more than they absolutely have to, because they won't be able to blame Republicans...after all the Democrats have the majority and don't need any Republican votes at all, if they could hold their own members together....
Yesterday Sean Hannity
December 13, 2007 - 11:23 ET by ricklailYesterday Sean Hannity played a diatribe from one of the Air America goonies on Oprah's blackness. I was getting out of the truck at the time and didn't get all of it. Do any of you know where to find it?
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” General George S. Patton.
I heard that too. The gist
December 13, 2007 - 11:41 ET by BruzillaI heard that too. The gist of it was that the only people who watch Oprah's show are "white women" regardless of who they really are. Even black men who watch that show think like "white women". She then went on to say that Oprah is "white" when she does her show, and only becomes "black" when she addresses a mostly black audience.
Yes, but ...
December 13, 2007 - 12:51 ET by drillanwrThis is, what I have come to term, "The Salamander Syndrome" .
We saw it with O.J. ... At the beginning of his trial it was mentioned, in the MSM, that O.J. was looked upon as actually a "white man" ... That was until the trial progressed ... and it looked as if he would be found guilty. Then he was a "black man" again, unfairly lynched by the "white man's" judicial system, and racist white cops who just wanted to "get the black guy for killing the white woman and her white boyfriend" ... Then the jury decided O.J. was "black" again, and was to be the "justice" for all the "injustices" put upon "blacks" in this country for centuries ...
(I would touch on Sec. Condi Rice and other "black" conservatives/repubs, but you already know THEY are "albino blacks" ...)
So, Obama and Oprah will be switching back over to "black" again, should Obama whip Hillary's butt for the nomination ... Or, should HRC decide he should be her running mate in `08.
First Woman Prez and First Black VP ... Just too "pretty" not to use in the campaign
Mike Huckabee put his foot
December 13, 2007 - 11:34 ET by motherbeltMike Huckabee put his foot in his mouth and had to retract it and apologize.
Stupidly, he asked a reporter, in a conversation about Mormonism: "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"
In a "disavowal" of the quote, he says he never expected to see the remark in print.
Then he complains that it was "characterized out of an 8,100-word story." As if, because he said 8090 other words in the interview, those 10 words don't count.
What is it with politicians that they always pitch a fit when their own words are quoted publicly? A nd why do they think that "I never expected to see it in print" is an excuse?
Good grief. If Huckabee thinks he is smart enough to be President, he should be smart enough to know that if he says things to a reporter during an interview, they could end up in print.
And instead of the excuses and rationalizations, why not just come out and say "It was a stupid thing to say, and I apologize. I don't know much about Mormonism."?
I would think more of him if he didn't try to make excuses.
Most Democrats like
December 13, 2007 - 11:48 ET by NewsbusterbrownMost Democrats like Huckabee as a Republican nominee because either he's moderate-liberal on too many issues or they think he will be easily K.O.ed in the general election. That's enough for me to think Huckabee's poison to the GOP.
poor Huck
December 13, 2007 - 11:54 ET by candanceHe's a nice guy, but I don't think he'd win the national vote.
Neither do I.
December 13, 2007 - 12:06 ET by motherbeltNeither do I.
Huckabee, like Reagan, wouldn't be an 'easy kill'
December 13, 2007 - 12:17 ET by vrwc13"So Huckabee is an "easy kill"? Don't believe it. He has to get nominated first, and that won't be easy. But if he does, he will be formidable in a general election, just like that other Razorback.
The Heartland wins."
from here: http://www.newsday.c...
v
"...did they really think that the 69-year-old "cowboy" ex-actor - not yet known as "The Great Communicator" - would be the easiest Republican to beat?
But we all know this for sure: Reagan carried 44 of 50 states in the election against Carter. So the moral of the story is that predictions from hired-gun spin doctors are not to be trusted."
vrwc...
December 13, 2007 - 12:22 ET by Clear thinkerI don't care if he can win, I still won't vote for him. He's a RINO!
Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/
No to Huckabee
December 13, 2007 - 14:32 ET by UnsaneSorry, vrwc. I am not voting to raise my sales tax from 8% to 30%. Also, I actually want something done about illegal immigration.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
I am not voting to raise my sales tax from 8% to 30%.
December 13, 2007 - 14:37 ET by vrwc13Can you explain this?
v
No to Huckabee, again
December 13, 2007 - 14:47 ET by UnsaneDon't you, the Huckabee fan, know about his support for the Unfair Tax? You know, the sales tax that is supposed to take the place of the income tax?
From what I have read on it, it will be 22%. Couple that with the TX sales tax (8%, a little higher/lower depending on what individual towns/counties/taxing authorities charge), and then I get to pay 30%.
No thanks.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
support for the Unfair Tax?
December 13, 2007 - 15:01 ET by vrwc13Not sure how it would all work but I will give it a shot:
- income of $50,000 per year would pay about $7,500 in income tax (per IRS chart)
- if you take half of that income ($25,000) and tax it at 30%, meaning you spend half of what you make (at least half would be spent on housing, and other non-sales tax items)during the year, tax would be about $7,500 - the same
Is this about right?
v
No to Huckabee
December 13, 2007 - 16:19 ET by UnsaneSo, in order to make something more "fair", you wish to slit the throat of the economy: consumer spending.
You start taxing me 30% each time I hit a cash register, I slam my wallet shut. So do lots of people. That's not a good thing for the economy.
But hey, we don't pay an income tax...right?
I would much rather pay 15-17% of my income in taxes, with NO loopholes or exemptions, and have everyone in America do this, regardless of income, and have an IRS of maybe 100 people max. (You think the "unfair tax" gets rid of the IRS? Think again.)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Flat tax Nuke em til they
December 13, 2007 - 14:48 ET by Dan The Man 2Flat tax
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
No more RINO's. The list
December 13, 2007 - 14:55 ET by Clear thinkerNo more RINO's.
The list includes...
Mitt, Mike, Rudy, John, and just for being weird, Ron.
Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/
So our true conservative
December 13, 2007 - 17:34 ET by dscottSo our true conservative choices are Duncan Hunter, Alan Keyes and Fred Thompson.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
Of course!
December 13, 2007 - 17:41 ET by sarcasmoSince his argument above against even considering Ron Paul a true conservative is so-convincing & intellectually-deep...And what I love about this is that invariably the worst behavior, such as name-calling with 0-actual-argument, ALWAYS comes from those who complain the loudest about the behavior of Ron Paul's supporters. Binx has caught it before, on NB, too. Heh heh...
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul. (All purpose anti-slander-link, sadly-needed these days...)
"True conservative" = RUN
December 14, 2007 - 18:08 ET by UnsaneRon Paul is a reactionary (so are you).
Conservatives don't like the idea of rendering the United States as helpless as a newborn on the world stage.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Only where name-calling
December 14, 2007 - 18:10 ET by sarcasmo= "proof." Anyway, I just think you're jealous. Can't blame ya!! :)
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul. (All purpose anti-slander-link, sadly-needed these days...)
Definitions
December 15, 2007 - 02:39 ET by UnsaneAh, yes, like clockwork. Your dependable, pious whine about how I am name calling.
It is 100% accurate and whine all you want, it doesn't alter the accuracy.
What's that you are so fond of saying? The tongs are your friend? Time to swallow THIS rat!
reˈactionary [-ʃə-] adjective, noun
(plural reˈactionaries) (a person) opposed to change and progress or favoring a return to things as they were
Don't like that definition? Keep whining and screaming about "name-calling". That is what both you and Paul are. Be PROUD of what you are.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
what about...
December 13, 2007 - 19:53 ET by sentforth5Tom Tancredo? I like him...at least, what little I know about him I likes.
what about...
December 13, 2007 - 19:54 ET by sentforth5Tom Tancredo? I like him...at least, what little I know about him I likes.
what about...
December 13, 2007 - 19:54 ET by sentforth5Tom Tancredo? I like him...at least, what little I know about him I likes.
what about...
December 13, 2007 - 19:54 ET by sentforth5Tom Tancredo? I like him...at least, what little I know about him I likes.
...
December 13, 2007 - 23:03 ET by dervishthat was only four.
:~)
Dervish, I
December 14, 2007 - 11:33 ET by JoeBobDervish,
I guess that's why he calls himself "sentfo(u)rth". :)
Without recognizing the ordinances of Heaven, it is impossible to be a superior man. - Confucious
dscott... You left out
December 14, 2007 - 18:15 ET by Clear thinkerdscott...
You left out Tom.
Now that you have the list, here's the breakdown...
Tom Tancredo is a one issue candidate and he has no money.
Duncan Hunter is a true Conservative but has no money and no organization.
Alan Keyes may be a Conservative, but his style will never work with the majority of people.
Fred Thompson is a true Conservative, has money, has organization, and has already put out 6 white papers clearly stating where he is on the issues. He's the only Conservative in the race that has a shot!
Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/
Ok, ok, ok, I left off Tom
December 15, 2007 - 17:27 ET by dscottOk, ok, ok, I left off Tom Tancredo, I was trying to be nice by not raising the subject. I like Tom, on virtually all the issues except for the shrill NAU talk. I'm not buying into the hyped NAU conspiracy theory that both he and Ron Paul has latched onto. No POTUS can afford that kind of talk. I'm all for a good conspiracy theory, but I'm not POTUS material nor will I ever hold an important government job. This is almost as bad as Kucinich and the UFO thing. Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
Another jelly bean recipient to be
December 17, 2007 - 07:08 ET by UnsaneDamnit! Tancredo is a NAU Conspiro?
His stock has dropped a couple of points. I should ship him some jelly beans.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
My sentiments exactly, and
December 17, 2007 - 17:38 ET by dscottMy sentiments exactly, and I really like the guy. Just keep him busy on the illegals, he does for this subject like Inhoffe does for AGW. They may not be POTUS material, not everyone is, but that doesn't mean they can't contribute to the best of their ability. Even Phyllis Schafly, another one of my most favorite people bought into the NAU conspiracy thing. Sigh, there is a fine line between genius and insanity, I guess the line squiggles a little now and then for everyone, so we need to give people a little grace, a wink and the benefit of the doubt sometimes...
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
At the risk of AF's wrath
December 13, 2007 - 12:07 ET by Dan The Man 2At the risk of AF's wrath Mormons dod believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers. There are quite a few other eye openers that Mormons dont tell ya about.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
um....Dan
December 13, 2007 - 12:17 ET by sarcasmo1. You include no cite whatsoever for a proposition that...
2. Huckabee literally just gave an apology to Romney (see editor's picks) for spreading. So is Huckabee wrong to offer an apology for saying what you just said, or are you wrong for saying it??
I'm not a Mormon, but I don't think it's at all ethical to distort their beliefs/faith in this way. Mitt has plenty of problems which are entirely apart from his take on religion.
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul. (All purpose anti-slander-link, sadly-needed these days...)
Sarc ask a Mormon and they
December 13, 2007 - 12:22 ET by Dan The Man 2Sarc ask a Mormon and they will give you a long drawn out explanation along with a prostelizing pamphlet. What kind of reference do ya want that says the LDS church believes that Jesus and Satan are brothers? Do you know anything about waht they believe or do you rally care? LOL
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
So you're saying Huckabee's wrong to issue an apology?
December 13, 2007 - 12:28 ET by sarcasmoI know very little about Mormons. Like most humorists, I'm most-interested in the underwear. I'm also interested as a capitalist (undies might be a really-good racket for other religions -- who knows??). But even if I joke about them, I try not to really insult them, and no Mormon I've known has ever said anything about Jesus being Satan's bro. You continue to provide 0-cite, as I said, so the question remains whether YOU know anything about what they believe, not me, since you're the one who made the assertion, like it or not.
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul. (All purpose anti-slander-link, sadly-needed these days...)
sarc, I found this
December 13, 2007 - 14:57 ET by motherbeltsarc, I found this
Seems to me Satan was considered one of God's children when he was an angel in heaven, before he rebelled.
Jesus incarnate is considered our brother, insofar as we are all God's children.
This is similar to the argument that Jesus was not Mary's only child, because somewhere in the New Testament there is a verse that refers to His mother and His brothers. Then a big discussion starts over what "brothers" means...is it literal, or just an expression of "family" or even "community"?
From the explanation I linked to, I think that saying Mormons believe
Jesus and Satan are "brothers" in the sense that we consider
brotherhood to be, is a stretch.
And I know you asked dan, not me, but yes, I think Huckabee needed to apologize, which in my opinion he didn't do. He equivocated. I wish he had just said "I don't know much about Mormonism, it was a stupid thing to say, and I apologize."
Instead, he took the politician's way out, and that's why I lost a little respect for him.
Update at 13:48 I stand corrected. I just read that Huckabee, on Tucker Carlson's show, said that went personally to Romney after the debate and apologized, face to face. He sounded sincere. Bravo, Mike Huckabee!
Huck first and foremost is
December 13, 2007 - 15:05 ET by Dan The Man 2Huck first and foremost is a Baptist and should proclaim his faith and the message as loud and far as he can, no matter what. If Huck believes then he should have said yes the Mormons believe this and gone on to clarify it. I am disappointed that he did not do so. Another reason not to vote for him.
The main reason I voted for GW Bush is because he came out with a strong message about his beliefs about Christian theology. It was funny when he did so because the moderator was like the rest stunned he was forcefull as he was. He was not apologetic in them and in fact said this is it and all else is bunk.
Even though I dont like his immigration stands and some of the other things I would vote for him over any other canditate today.
In the sense that all creatures are God's children
December 13, 2007 - 15:08 ET by sarcasmoI guess I'd qualify as Satan's brother, too. Another example of a really weak argument -- and I've seen plenty of 'em lately.
Anyway, despite little to no news media attention paid to it, another candidate has what I think is a well thought out statement of faith. The message is selling despite the fact that people like me feel compelled to do the media's job for them in places like this...
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul. (All purpose anti-slander-link, sadly-needed these days...)
Sorry you think it's an
December 13, 2007 - 15:45 ET by motherbeltSorry you think it's an argument at all; it wasn't meant to be. I
thought I was being helpful by pointing to a website; and that was just
my take on what was on the website, not necessarily my own beliefs.
I was agreeing with you!
December 13, 2007 - 15:48 ET by sarcasmoWeak arguments, while weak, are still arguments by definition. They just suck because they're used as a substitute for actual debate, which requires more intellect. I just want the media to be honest about ALL the candidates' takes on faith. They've instead tried to ignore some candidates (NOT just Paul!!!) in what looks to me like a biased attempt to do the usual and help RINOs at any cost. But I have no issue with what you've said here.
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul. (All purpose anti-slander-link, sadly-needed these days...)
OK. I guess I
December 13, 2007 - 18:37 ET by motherbeltOK. I guess I misunderstood.
Dan
December 13, 2007 - 13:23 ET by ricklailYou are right. When my oldest son was born, two Moron missionaries came to our house. They had gotten our names from paper. They went on with their BS for about one and a half hours. They left me the book of Moron. I read portions of it or enough to know it was a lie. When they came back I hit them on the Jesus and Satan question. They went through a line of BS but it came down to them believing that. It was based on Jesus being a created being just like Satan. Anyway I heard it from their mouths.
I wanted to thank them because it drove me to do a lot of studying on them. Most of the study was taking what was in the Bible and comparing to what was in the book of Moron.
I call them Morons because their whole belief is based on what the angel Moroni told to Joe Smith. I don't see how they get Mormon from Moroni.
I admire them for the moral stances they once took. You have to remember that Dingy Harry is a Moron. He believes in same sex marriage, abortion, all the lefties ideals.
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” General George S. Patton.
I don't see how they get Mormon from Moroni.
December 13, 2007 - 13:37 ET by vrwc13Moroni , according to the Book of Mormon was the last Nephite prophet and military commander who lived in North America in the late fourth and early fifth centuries. Latter-day Saint theology can be interpreted to mean that after his death Moroni was resurrected and became an angel. In addition to the Book of Mormon account, Joseph Smith and the Three Witnesses also testified they saw Moroni in the form of an angel of light.
Mortal life
Moroni was the son of Mormon, the prophet for whom the Book of Mormon is named. He was named after (and should not be confused with) Captain Moroni, a much earlier Book of Mormon figure.
Moroni served under his father, who was commander in chief, in the final war between the Nephites and the Lamanites, leading a group of 10,000 men. Upon the Nephites' defeat, Moroni was forced to go into hiding and to wander from place to place to avoid being killed by the victorious Lamanites. (See also Cumorah for more information on this battle.) Moroni was the last known survivor of the Nephite nation.
Moroni had been commanded by his father to complete the Nephite record which Mormon had abridged from previous records. Moroni is the ascribed author of chapters 8 and 9 of the Book of Mormon (Mormon's record within the larger Book of Mormon), the entire Book of Moroni, and the Title Page of the Book of Mormon. He is also said to have written the Book of Ether, which is primarily an abridgment of Jaredite writings but also contains extensive commentary by Moroni, especially in Ether 4, Ether 5, Ether 8, and Ether 12. Moroni was the last prophet to write in the Book of Mormon.
Moroni claimed that he had seen and spoken to Jesus face to face and that he had been shown extensive visions of the future. Speaking directly to modern-day readers of the Book of Mormon, Moroni writes, "Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing" (Mormon 8:35).
Upon completion of the record, written on Golden Plates, Moroni buried the plates in a stone box in a hill in what is now Ontario County, New York. A 12-meter granite and bronze monument to Moroni now stands on this hill, which is commonly called Cumorah.
Afterlife
According to Joseph Smith, Jr., some unspecified time after Moroni died, he was "raised again therefrom" and became the angel Moroni who visited Smith in 1823 and showed him the location of the golden plates (Smith 1838, pp. 42–43). Because Smith said he was "raised again" from the dead, it is generally assumed in Latter Day Saint theology that Moroni was resurrected
Wikipedia
Let the Mormons speak for
December 13, 2007 - 12:26 ET by dscottLet the Mormons speak for themselves: http://en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ_is_the_brother_of_Satan
You decide based on their explanation of their theology.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
weak link
December 13, 2007 - 12:32 ET by candanceThat article gave no actual scripture from the BofM and cited a "Cult Watch" website as its source with no length.
I remain dubious.
Candace, the Book of Morman
December 13, 2007 - 13:11 ET by Dan The Man 2Candace, the Book of Morman is constantly being "clarified" and "defined" by the 12 apostles of the LDS church. Even from way back when the founding the book of morman and the LDS old King James Bible have been modified. It comes from their idea of scripture is true as it is "interpreted", therefore each time a new leader of teh LDS church is chosen "new relevations" direct from god are given as edicts and the LDS church and doctrine are changed forever.
Hey AF get on and explain it for us.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
No Dan. I will not be
December 13, 2007 - 13:27 ET by Airforce_5_ONo Dan. I will not be baited and if you would like to discuss it I will off line. You had no problem PM me on Keith what makes the differance now? Because you want to smear not debate. You have made up your mind what a "Mormon" believes so it is fruitless to discuss it.
Done Dude.
“The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.”
Thomas J. Jackson
I PM'ed you about Kieth
December 13, 2007 - 13:40 ET by Dan The Man 2I PM'ed you about Kieth because I wanted you to explain to me what the beef was. In this it is different as the whole of the community here may be intersted in what the LDS church believes in the idea taht Satabn and Jesus are brothers.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Dan, yesterday on a different thread, Matthew Sheffield said
December 13, 2007 - 14:02 ET by RJths site is not intended to be for religious discussion....and he shut down the thread.
I'd like to see him establish a general ban on these religious attacks by the extremists on this site.
"I'd like to see him
December 13, 2007 - 15:15 ET by Six String Spiff"I'd like to see him establish a general ban on these religious attacks by the extremists on this site."
Same here. I am so sick of everything being dragged down to 'Jesus said... ' gah. No, I am not an athiest.
RJ a religeous extremist is
December 13, 2007 - 15:43 ET by Dan The Man 2RJ a religeous extremist is anyone who has heartfelt views and black and white beliefs? You sound like the hard liners in the USSR trying to put down disent or China saying there will be only approved religions.
That said I believe all this started with Huckabee and his comment about an aspect of the Mormon religion. All I asked for was clarification and it seems like you freak out.
I agree this site is not for religous discussion per say but this particular discussion was ecerpted from what one of teh Presidential canditates said about another canditate. To me that makes it fair game and legitimate discaussion. Now that said there is some point where a discussion is beating a dead horse and should be shut down.
But it seems like true discussion about this has gone teh way of AGW- Al Gore discussions, consensus says so it is...so sayeth the Goracle.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
The USSR? China? Don't be disingenuous, Dan
December 13, 2007 - 15:46 ET by RJYou know perfectly well I'm talking about those extremists on this site who attack, veiled or openly, the religion of others.
RJ, now you are being
December 13, 2007 - 16:07 ET by Dan The Man 2RJ, now you are being disingenuous “You know perfectly well I'm talking about those extremists on this site who attack, veiled or openly, the religion of others” as that is exactly what those countries do, they stifle religion or the discussion of such unless it furthers the state. You probably label me as an extremist because I openly defend my faith and believe all other religions are FALSE, yes false and of Satan.
But you miss the crux of this. The crux is was Huck right the first time?
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Dan, you have in common with the other bigots on this site
December 13, 2007 - 16:37 ET by RJthe ability to suspend logic and rational thought.
Extremist? You betcha. Not only because you pretend to "defend" when you're attacking, but because:
-you aggressively attempt to prevent others from worshiping as they please.
-you aggressively attempt to stifle their free speech.
-you aggressively attempt to domineer their behavior in order to "further the state" of your religion.
-you demand only "sanctioned" religious practices...especially from leaders.
Sound like anyone familiar? Maybe China? The USSR?
RJ you are right
December 13, 2007 - 17:32 ET by Dan The Man 2RJ you are right “aggressively attempt to prevent others from worshiping as they please”, I will be over at your house to arrest you and put you in a reeducation camp. This is to “aggressively attempt to stifle their free speech” as you put it. And in that camp we will “aggressively attempt to domineer their behavior in order to "further the state" of your religion”. We will “demand only "sanctioned" religious practices...especially from leaders”
I have seen some of your exchanges with others and wondered why they were so aggressive with you, now I know. That was among the most stupid post I have seen on this site.
I was referencing you comment about extremists. Do you hate Christians or just the idea of religion or some person who has rock solid beliefs?
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Well of course you would call it stupid
December 13, 2007 - 18:40 ET by RJBigots will say anything to deny their bigotry.
Go back and read your ridiculous, illogical non-sequiturs in the thread. My favorite is that because I said that attacks on the religions of others should be banned you managed to equate me with China and the USSR.
LOL! Youse guys will say absolutely anything to deny your bigotry. So now you're whining because I threw it right back at you.
:^)
I will say, though, that I've noticed the way youse guys uniformly share the same inablity to stay with a logical argument. Must be something to do with emotionalism (feeeelings) dominating your psyches.
I am done with Newsbusters
December 13, 2007 - 13:48 ET by Airforce_5_OAn anti-Mormon web site? There you go, a real good source.
Well that does it guys. I am done with this site. I use to love coming to Newsbusters and enjoy debate but this is an insult.
I have never attacked your faiths at anytime but it seems to me you just can't resist. If being of your faith to attack anothers then I want nothing to do with you.
If in my time here I have offended you I apoligize. I forgive you but I will no longer associate myself with.
Good bye.
“The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.”
Thomas J. Jackson
Hope you reconsider, AirForce
December 13, 2007 - 13:53 ET by RJIf you leave, you will have allowed the several loud, disgusting, obnoxious bigots on this site to stifle you.
It's telling that leon has joined their ranks.
RJ there were no bigots in
December 13, 2007 - 14:01 ET by Dan The Man 2RJ there were no bigots in reference to the LDS, we wanted clarification. AF if you leave then leave but don't use the reason about being insulted. If you need to set the record straight do so.
There are many on this site that differ in ideas in Christian theologies. We discuss and clarify but dont stamp our feet, cry foul and go home like Bill Clinton did on the FNC or like teh Dims are doing by boycotting the FNC.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
As Matthew said yesterday, this site is not intended to be for
December 13, 2007 - 14:03 ET by RJreligious debate. What don't you get about that?
And bigots never admit what they are.
I wish you wouldn't leave Five O
December 13, 2007 - 13:56 ET by MightyMouthI, for one, will miss you!
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
yeah AF 5-0
December 13, 2007 - 14:41 ET by MrShySo, there are people who differ in opinion, and who have offended you (heck, ever seen Leon's posts to me? they're unreal...) but that's sort of the beauty of this site, like my hometown NYC, where everyone is so different but manages to coexist and not kill each other.
Hope you'll reconsider! I'll miss you too :(
"No wonder I turned out so amazingly amazing."
-- Leon (Robin to Professor TP&C's Batman)
thanks a lot
December 13, 2007 - 14:03 ET by candanceHey, here's a great idea...let's go after all the Catholics next! And then those crazy holly rollers! And then anyone who isn't just like Mike Huckabee! NewsBusters can be the website that exposes "anything except Southern Baptist" bias in the media.
I'm writing off your names with Keith and Leon. We may all have our own ideas about Mormonism (not saying I agree with everything AF says), but embarrassing Air Force off this site with day-in-and-day-out criticism was not very nice.
Idiotic religion-bashing
December 13, 2007 - 14:37 ET by UnsaneI hate to see you go, especially over people who simply cannot stand to let others believe as they believe.
I have known too many Mormons to consider them as anything other than good people who, like so many of us, no matter our religious background, are only trying to do what's right for themselves and their families.
Thus, to see all this anti-Mormon rhetoric is to me nothing less than idiotic.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
AF, I too, wish you would
December 13, 2007 - 17:12 ET by MikeBAF, I too, wish you would reconsider. Like I've said before, I left the Mormon Church over 40 years ago, so I am hardly what one would call a Mormon apologist. But, it annoys me greatly for ignorant bigots to make statements based on ignorance about your or anyone else's faith. Mormons, both the Church and the individuals, have some good teachings. Most Mormons I know have a work ethic that won't quit, and are honest, productive people. There are exceptions to that rule *cough*Harry Reid*cough*.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
All I can say is thank God
December 13, 2007 - 17:43 ET by BruzillaAll I can say is thank God I'm an Agnostic! :)
All I can say is thank God I'm an Agnostic! :)
December 13, 2007 - 17:51 ET by vrwc13Are you sure? ) :
Bruzilla and vrwc
December 13, 2007 - 18:27 ET by RJlol to BOTH of you. :^)
Winners talk...losers walk.
December 13, 2007 - 17:43 ET by KarmaWinners talk...losers walk. Unless you want to turn the universe upside-down Airforce, stay right here and talk.
AL probed...Je$$e next?
December 13, 2007 - 13:55 ET by reelman46AL PROBED…JE$$E NEXT?
NEW
YORK — Federal authorities have subpoenaed financial records and
employees in an apparent probe of the Rev. Al Sharpton’s 2004
presidential bid, nonprofit civil rights group, and for-profit
businesses, a newspaper reported Thursday.
As many as 10 Sharpton associates were subpoenaed Wednesday to testify
before a federal grand jury in Brooklyn Dec. 26, his lawyer told the
Daily News.
They were told to provide investigators with financial records from the
campaign and roughly six Sharpton-related businesses, as well as
personal financial documents of Sharpton and his wife, the newspaper
said.
The FBI and Internal Revenue Service are seeking the records, which go back to 2001, according to the Daily News.
A Sharpton spokeswoman did not immediately return phone calls or e-mail messages early Thursday.
(As many as 10 people were subpoenaed, Redding said. The court papers
also sought a wide range of financial records, from invoices of
expenses paid by cash to cash receipts to bad debt records from the
years 2001 to 2007.
Sharpton’s quixotic run for the Democratic presidential nomination has
raised questions of financial impropriety - including charges that he
spent campaign funds on swanky hotels.
In April 2005, Sharpton denied allegations that he failed to report
tens of thousands of dollars in campaign cash to the Federal Election
Committee.
Sharpton’s associates were summoned to testify before the grand jury on
the morning after Christmas. The subpoenas additionally called for them
to provide the IRS with all financial records from the campaign and a
half-dozen Sharpton-related businesses.)
CRAWFISH NOTE: Is the free ride over at last for the
race hustlers? Ever wonder how preachers with no church (apparently)
can jet the country and live like congressional royalty? Does your
preacher have 6 side businesses? Ever wonder where the money comes from
or who pays their bills? Is your preacher anything like these two
self-appointed spokespersons? WWJD?
So the FBI and IRS finally finally finally got around to checking the
“cash flow”… shucks. Talk about a CYA scramble now. Merry Christmas.
Expect the “r” word defense (or playing the victim) before a week goes
by…
Doug Schexnayder, Ph.D. (theconservativecrawfish)
reel
December 13, 2007 - 16:15 ET by MrShyYeah, I certainly hope this is the beginning of the end for the gravy train of these hustlers....
"No wonder I turned out so amazingly amazing."
-- Leon (Robin to Professor TP&C's Batman)
I'm with Sarc on this one
December 13, 2007 - 12:27 ET by candanceIf Mormons ran around saying "Baptists think it's okay to be a criminal cause you'll go to heaven anyway" that would be a stretch and distortion of one of their well-intentioned beliefs and Huckabee would be quick to point it out.
NOT here to debate Baptist doctrine. That was an example of how a well-meaning idea can be twisted around.
Until we get a black-and-white explanation on that, we shouldn't keep spreading it as a rumor.
Dan
December 13, 2007 - 13:08 ET by Airforce_5_ONo wrath Dan just get your facts straight. We do not believe it, take my word.
Eye openers, yes there are some eye openers but isn't that what religion is supose to do? Open your eyes?
Just to let you know, I was a convert to the LDS faith. I did not grow up in it. I come from a very strong religious, in fact evangelical to be exact, background. I have used and heard everything that some people on this site have used to smear the LDS faith. It is the nature of men to attack those things they do not understand.
You want to know about it PM me but I'm done with the doctrune discussed on the thread.
“The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.”
Thomas J. Jackson
AF its funny that the LDS
December 13, 2007 - 13:16 ET by Dan The Man 2AF its funny that the LDS members I talk to believe it. It stems from the belief that God is only one god in a long line of gods and Jesus and Satan are both gods equal in their own right. At least thats how it was explained to me. AF PM's are great but nothing brings out truth lijke the light. If you have a different opinion then bring it into the light.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Another trap Dan? No.
December 13, 2007 - 13:29 ET by Airforce_5_OAnother trap Dan? No. If I don't then "I am Covering Up". If I do then you just feed more lies.
No.
“The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.”
Thomas J. Jackson
Jeez, AF, you've got your
December 13, 2007 - 19:54 ET by motherbeltJeez, AF, you've got your nerve.....don't contradict....dan is telling you what you believe, for crying out loud!!
<sarc off>
Notice that when you say "we" don't believe it, he says not so, because he knows others that do. Makes you wonder, doesn't it, if he's going to go back to them now and tell them they are wrong, because he heard from someone (you) that it's not true?
"Mormons ...believe that
December 13, 2007 - 16:58 ET by MikeB"Mormons ...believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers." Can we examine that for a moment?
Let's assume that 1) God exists, 2) He created the Universe (including all living beings, whether spirit or flesh), 3) Jesus is real, 4) Satan is real.
From these assumptions, if God created all of the Universe, He created Jesus (the firstborn of Creation) and He created the one who rebelled against Him and became Satan. They had the same Father, therefore, they are brothers.
But, if you read the first chapter of Collosians, where Paul is talking about the Christ, Christ "is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: ...all things have been created through him (still talking about Jesus), and unto him..." So, from this, one could conclude that God created Jesus, then God directed or used Jesus to create the rest of the universe. Therefore, Jesus is Satan's creator or father, and Satan is God's grandson.
Note: in the Bible account, Satan became Satan of his own free choice. He chose to rebel against God. He was not created the Prince of Darkness and the Father of Lies, but chose that path for himself. If the Mormons believe Satan and Jesus to be brothers, they have a very good case. Unless you wish to posit that there were more than one Creator, one Who created Jesus, and another who created Satan. Is that what you wish to claim?
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
Christianity 101
December 13, 2007 - 17:34 ET by vrwc131In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it. ……
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1
Jesus has always been, is, and will always be God. He came to dwell among us: verse 14.
Satan is a fallen angel (Lucifer), not human, not God.
The Mormons believe that god the father (who was once a man, as was his father, grandfather, greatgrandfather etc.) had with his heavenly wife a son Jesus (also a man who becomes a god). As with them, you a man, can become a god.
As for Satan, not sure what they believe he is. But in no way is he Jesus' brother.
Two different Jesus', two different faiths.
v
5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.
In the beginning was the
December 13, 2007 - 19:02 ET by MikeBIn the beginning was the Word (or Logos), and the Word (Logos)was with the God (capitalized Theos), and a god (theos not capitalized) [or, divine] was the Word (Logos).
So, the Logos and the God (ho Theos) were/are not the same being. And, if you wish to continue reading John, "Through it (the Logos) everything was done; and without it (the Logos) not even one thing was done, which has been done." Which just reinforces Colossians.
If you wish to continue, pm me. If not, okay.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
Romney Supporters
December 13, 2007 - 11:46 ET by River CityI frequent other areas on the web like Michelle Malkin, Hot Air, Little Green Footballs, Ace of Spades and some websites for news agencies that allow comments. I have noticed a pattern develop within the last two weeks. The Romney supporters have become militant. They take people on and call them bigots regularly now. They stomp and say they won't vote Republican if Huckabee wins. There was an election poll done by Grassfire and the discussion about the poll in Grassfire's forum was ugly. The Romney supporters accused Steve Elliot of being in the tank for Huckabee. They also accused someone of freeping the poll for Huckabee.
How did this happen? How did the Romney supporters become so negative? I am puzzled and unhappy this is happening and its almost like watching the Paulbots come unglued. Please, Fred-heads, don't do this to me. I just joined the team and don't want to reconsider now so close to the caucus.
"We are going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." Hillary Clinton, 6-28-04 San Francisco
They take people on and call them bigots regularly now.
December 13, 2007 - 12:11 ET by vrwc13Happens here too, frequently.
v
Call'em like I see them
December 13, 2007 - 13:34 ET by Airforce_5_OCall'em like I see them V. And that goes both ways as militant is concerned is it not V. You have been on a one person assault on Romney and Latter Day Saints.
V on the phone: Kettle this V, your black! <Click>
The glass house one comes to mind too.
“The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.”
Thomas J. Jackson
"How did this happen? How
December 13, 2007 - 14:04 ET by MikeB"How did this happen? How did the Romney supporters become so negative?" Well, RC, if your religion was attacked and slandered by a bunch of ignorant bigots, I imagine you would get a bit testy yourself. As I said before, I left the Mormon Church over 40 years ago, so I know some, not all, about Mormon beliefs. I have seen those beliefs distorted, twisted, and outright lied about on this site. Some of the posters, even those I thought would know better, seem to be of the opinion that Romney intends to set up a Mormon theocracy in this country. That ain't happening. It couldn't happen because it wouldn't get past Congress, the Supreme Court, or the people.
If you want to know what a Mormon believes, either read the Book of Mormon or ask a Mormon elder. Don't ask a Catholic or a Muslim or anyone else. Conversely, if you want to know what the Catholic Church believes, read the Catholic Encyclopedia or ask a priest. (I would not ask a Catholic about Church doctrine, because from personal experience I can say not all of them know what the Church teaches. For example, I had one Catholic try to tell me original sin was sex. It took a priest to settle the argument: the original sin was disobedience.)
I do not support Romney for the office of President of the United States, not because he is a Mormon, but because he is on the wrong side of some issues that are important to me, and has shown inconsistency on various issues. I think Romney's belief in God is a positive thing even though his beliefs and mine on the matter do not coincide. My top two preferred candidates are Duncan Hunter and Fred Thompson. I don't know what religion either of them are, nor do I care. I prefer them because of their positions on issues.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
All this whining from the
December 13, 2007 - 17:53 ET by BruzillaAll this whining from the Romney camp makes me want to hurl!!! They created the situation they're in, and now they're still trying to play the victim card. I'm sorry to say that the only MSM guy to figure this all out is Juan Williams!!!
Let's go back to the first time Romney's religion was ever an issue. It was when one guy, one, at a miniscule press conference, asked him about his being a Morman. One guy, one question, one press conference. The next thing you know, you've got Hannity and the rest of the guys on FNC falling all over themselves to interview Romney and ask his opinion about "all this criticism" (what criticism... it was one dang guy!!!) that he's taking about being a Morman.
At that point, Romney could have ended the whole issue by saying what he said last week, and saying that it doesn't mean a thing to him and it shouldn't mean anything to the voters. Shut the door, move along, there's nothing to see here. Instead, he sees an opportunity to paint himself as a victim, and he jumps onto the religious bigotry express with both feet. If an interviewer doesn't bring it up, he brought it up. He pushed it and pushed it as an agenda, and now he's acting all miffed because it's grown too big for him to handle. He wants to turn off the discussion because it's hurting him now, but it's beyond his control now. As far as I'm concerned, the guy is reaping what he sowed.
Selective memory
December 13, 2007 - 18:37 ET by RJYour memory is conveniently selective. The media sniping at Romney's religion has been going on for a long time. Many times, right here at NB we've discussed that it has been the obvious intent of the media to MAKE it into an issue.
Romney didn't want to give "the speech" and in fact did it against the advice of his campaign staffers.
Instead of inventing your personal history of the circumstances, why not just admit you don't like Romney?
And now, today's Shrub
December 13, 2007 - 11:52 ET by Roger the ShrubberAnd now, today's Shrub Report®:
Four years ago today, the leader of the 3rd-largest army in the world was found hiding like rat in a hole.
Manbearpig!
Iran tests missile to be used only for peace.
It's hard to pick the less-likeable person in this dogfight.
Don't you all find simply unbelievable that Al Sharpton could be breaking the law?
And now, your 2007 Wife of the Year winner!
Remember the First Rule of Liberalism: Accuse the Right of doing exactly what the Left is doing.
The Democrat(ic) Mandate in Congress: freshman congressmen, line up at the trough! WTF, Pennsylvania?
Leon, was this attack done by Al-Qaeda or Iran? I thought Iraq was a "civil war"?
Here's a cool story for all you Cubs fans out there!
And finally, today is the birthday for two actors with kick-ass names: Van Heflin and Curd Jurgens. Speaking of Curd, today is also the birthday of ice-skater Lynn-Holly Johnson. They both have appears in Bond films, Johnson in For Your Eyes Only and Jurgens as uber-villian Stromberg in The Spy Who Loved Me.
Great Shrub Report!!
December 13, 2007 - 12:08 ET by MrShyGreat Shrub Report!! :)
"No wonder I turned out so amazingly amazing."
-- Leon (Robin to Professor TP&C's Batman)
hey Shy
December 13, 2007 - 12:16 ET by candanceYou're on early today.
PS - Great work Shrub. You're the best!
hey candance
December 13, 2007 - 13:08 ET by MrShyYeah, I'm at this onsite job today... a 2 week-long freelance gig, sort of.
And WOW, Jane is 70??
"No wonder I turned out so amazingly amazing."
-- Leon (Robin to Professor TP&C's Batman)
Shrubber you forgot
December 13, 2007 - 12:35 ET by ricklailRog you do a good job but you forgot that Hanoi Jane turns 70.
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” General George S. Patton.
Wow, how did I miss that? I
December 13, 2007 - 13:26 ET by Roger the ShrubberWow, how did I miss that?
I saw "Barbarella" in the theatre way back in the mid-70's (they must have re-released or something) and she was muy caliente! Now she is muy saggymente!
rog & rick
December 13, 2007 - 13:34 ET by MrShyShe was still pretty hot in the late 70's.... and I came "this close" (making a this-close gesture, yes :p) to acting with her in that movie with Kathryn Hepburng and her dad. I'm forgettting the name, but I auditioned a few times for the kid in it.
Ah! "On Golden Pond", and she wears a bikini in one scene....
"No wonder I turned out so amazingly amazing."
-- Leon (Robin to Professor TP&C's Batman)
OGP
December 13, 2007 - 15:29 ET by Del DolemonteA friend of mine worked as an assistant producer on "On Golden Pond", which was filmed a few miles to the north of me on Squam Lake in New Hampshire. She says Kate was a real pain in the butt...until she got to know her better.
The locals up here recently celebrated the 25th anniversary of the film's release. The guy who wrote the original play, and later did the screenplay, Ernie Thompson, has a huge spread about 5 miles south of where the movie was filmed.
Roger
December 13, 2007 - 13:19 ET by Airforce_5_OGot to tell you, I was raised not far from Boliva NC in Brunswick Co. NC. I will call my brother down there a get more info on the "Beast of Bolivia". Should be fun.
“The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.”
Thomas J. Jackson
Energy Bill......
December 13, 2007 - 12:09 ET by JayTeeWhy oh WHY does Harry Reid and company think that Congress can legislate the USA off of our dependence on OIL ?
Massive Ethanol legislation ain't the Answer, Ethanol does NOT travel via Pipelines, it's a "no workie". Passing new CAFE standards isn't going to work, another attempt to Legislation Mechanical inventions.
Let the maketplace work, Pass some Drilling legislation and let the Car makers and Mechanical Genius do their thing. Show some Reality based legislation, not "pie in the sky" back to the "55 MPH interstate model" legislation.
Too bad this current crop of losers won't be in office much longer to have "Measurement" feed back on this latest Energy "miracle" Legislation.
What good is a Free Press, if it is a False Press ? David Foote GoE
Looking Presidential....
December 13, 2007 - 12:32 ET by Clear thinkerIs anyone else sick of hearing this phrase?
Looking and being Presidential are totally different. What I want to see is their record. This is how I vote, not because someone is handsome or has great hair. Aaaaaaargh!
Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/
Lincoln
December 13, 2007 - 13:00 ET by River CityI bet they didn't use that phrase around President Lincoln when he was running. I'm with you, I don't like it either. Put it right next to "gravitas" in the rhetorical graveyard please.
"We are going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." Hillary Clinton, 6-28-04 San Francisco
But we are in a media era
December 13, 2007 - 13:11 ET by Prester JohnWhen the talk increased about Lincoln running for president he went to New York to make his famous Cooper Union speech to the eastern Republicans. People liked what they heard about him but really didn't know what he looked like. When they saw him they were aghast--here was a tall, thin, gangly, not attractive man wearing highwater pants and he was running for President?
And when he began to speak his voice was high pitched and obnoxious and the audience flinched, but within minutes he got into his rhythm and when he finished he brought the people to their feet.
Moral--back then it was ideas that first got a voter's attention, then appearance, then ideas again. Nowadays it's appearance, ideas, appearance.
MTCW
And on the lighter side of the news......
December 13, 2007 - 12:32 ET by Prester John.......Democrats Blaming Each Other For Failures
When Democrats took control of Congress in January, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Senate Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.) pledged to jointly push an ambitious agenda to counter 12 years of Republican control.
Now, as Congress struggles to adjourn for Christmas, relations between House Democrats and their colleagues in the Senate have devolved into finger-pointing.
House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles B. Rangel (D-N.Y.) accuses Senate Democratic leaders of developing "Stockholm syndrome," showing sympathy to their Republican captors by caving in on legislation to provide middle-class tax cuts paid for with tax increases on the super-rich, tying war funding to troop withdrawal timelines, and mandating renewable energy quotas. If Republicans want to filibuster a bill, Rangel said, Reid should keep the bill on the Senate floor and force the Republicans to talk it to death.
Reid, in turn, has taken to the Senate floor to criticize what he called the speaker's "iron hand" style of governance.
Democrats in each chamber are now blaming their colleagues in the other for the mess in which they find themselves. The predicament caused the majority party yesterday surrender to President Bush on domestic spending levels, drop a cherished renewable-energy mandate and move toward leaving a raft of high-profile legislation, from addressing the mortgage crisis to providing middle-class tax relief, undone or incomplete.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/12/AR2007121202837_pf.html
Ya gotta love it.
So the questions remain,
December 13, 2007 - 12:41 ET by dscottSo the questions remain, will Congress send W 11 appropriation bills today or tomorrow which he finds acceptable to sign? Will Congress shut down the Federal Government tomorrow for a lack of agreement on what to send to the POTUS for signature? Will they attempt an omibus spending bill instead of the 11 remaining appropriation bills? Will W sign such a bill if it has any pork or other objectional items in it? Given that W has already vetoed S-CHIP for the second time, I'm betting W will veto any omibus spending bill.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
I'm hoping for shutdown!
December 13, 2007 - 13:10 ET by FastEdThings get better for everyone whan the govt isn't "working" (there's a misnomer) - expeciall the demolibs, who don't know what work is - "Work!" (Maynard G. Crebbs)
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad V
Paglia's take on religion is worth reading
December 13, 2007 - 12:41 ET by RJShe's an atheist, but unlike many of today's small-minded secularists, she understands that religion is important, necessary, and valuable in the affairs of mankind.
"In my lecture on religion and the arts in America earlier this year at Colorado College, I argued that secular humanism has failed, that the avant-garde is dead, and that liberals must start acknowledging the impoverished culture that my 1960s generation has left to the young. ATHEISM ALONE IS A ROTTING CORPSE.........it is selfish and shortsighted for liberals to automatically define religion as a social problem that needs suppression or eradication. Without spirituality in some form, people will anesthetize themselves with drink or drugs -- including the tranquilizers that seem near universal among the status-addled professional class of the Northeastern elite......Secularism evidently cannot stimulate creativity as profoundly as religion does -- whether in the artist's soaring affirmation or angry resistance......Religion has become a prophetic voice crying in the wilderness against our Hollywood Babylon."
RIP Ike Turner
December 13, 2007 - 12:45 ET by NoMoreClintonsGreat musician, nasty person from most accounts. Ike passed away yesterday at the age of 76. I'm surprised he lived that long. But he was a Founding Father of sorts of Rock 'n Roll. He played on what is usually credited as being the first rock 'n roll record, "Rocket 88" recorded in 1951 by Jackie Brenston and His Delta Cats. Ike was one of the Cats. Always liked Ike's music, never had much use for Tina. Of course, he made her what she was. RIP Ike.
The best quote of the debate...
December 13, 2007 - 12:45 ET by Clear thinkerEveryone got so wrapped up in Fred not towing the moderators line, that most missed the best quote from the debate...
“‘When the enemies of this country are at the negotiating table, who do you want representing you? Whoever that guy is, that’s the guy you ought to vote for President.”
-Fred Thompson in today’s Des Moines Register debate
Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/
Fred IS THE Man
December 13, 2007 - 13:03 ET by River CityFred has my vote on January 3.
"We are going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." Hillary Clinton, 6-28-04 San Francisco
Go away Al
December 13, 2007 - 13:17 ET by Prester JohnGore: US blocking climate talks progress
BALI, Indonesia - Nobel laureate Al Gore accused the United States on Thursday of blocking progress at the U.N. climate conference, and European nations threatened to boycott U.S.-led climate talks next month unless Washington compromises on emissions reductions.
The former vice president urged delegates to take urgent action to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases blamed for global warming, and told them that the next U.S. president will likely be more supportive of international caps on polluting gases.
"My own country, the United States, is principally responsible for obstructing progress here in Bali," said Gore, who flew (on a commercial flight no doubt) to Bali from Oslo, Norway, where he received the Nobel Peace Prize for helping alert the world to the danger of climate change.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071213/ap_on_re_au_an/bali_climate_conference
Just think, now everytime we hear about Gore he will introduced as "Nobel laureate".
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Inductees Announced
December 13, 2007 - 13:17 ET by Del Dolemonte5 Inductees this year
The Ventures (it's about time!)
The Dave Clark 5 (yay!)
Leonard Cohen (good one, even if he's not really rock and roll)
Little Bastard (John Mellencamp)
and last and least, Madonna
Still no Genesis, Yes or
December 13, 2007 - 13:22 ET by Hero SquadStill no Genesis, Yes or Emerson, Lake & Palmer? The HoF's bias against progressive rock (courtesy of Jann Wenner) grows more offensive every year.)
Until they are members, this grouping has no meaning.
Or The Monkees.
*****
"There are no stupid questions. Only stupid people who ask questions." - Chris Berman
I agree. I am suprised YES
December 13, 2007 - 13:33 ET by Roger the ShrubberI agree. I am suprised YES isn't in there. I am iffy on Genesis.
Furthermore, I am shocked that Hall and Oates hasn't made it, either!
At least a prayer of mine was finally answered last year when Black Sabbath FINALLY made it!
Roger
December 13, 2007 - 14:49 ET by ricklailHave you all forgotten Pat Boone?
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” General George S. Patton.
Pretty much.
December 13, 2007 - 15:24 ET by Hero SquadPretty much.
*****
"There are no stupid questions. Only stupid people who ask questions." - Chris Berman
Thankfully! I forgot about
December 13, 2007 - 17:08 ET by Roger the ShrubberThankfully!
I forgot about Rush, another band that deserves it. There have been numerous acts that have been inducted who have had less of an inpact than those bands(Patti Smith, Bob Seger, Brenda Lee, and Steely Friggin Dan come to mind).
Metallica is another. I believe "Kill em All" came out in '83, right? 2008 is 25 years. Induct Metallica!
New Rush Re-Issue
December 13, 2007 - 18:44 ET by Del Dolemontehttp://www.mofi.com/
RUSH - PERMANENT WAVES ULTRADISC II 24KT GOLD CD NOW
AVAILABLE
MoFi has a long reputation for ultra-high-quality sound re-mastering.
The Monkees
December 13, 2007 - 14:02 ET by Del DolemonteI've nothing against the Monkees, but they'll probably never get in, as they started out as a pre-fab group. On their first album, as I recall, only Mike Nesmith played on every song-the rest was studio musicians.
It wasn't until their great album "Headquarters" that they all played for themselves. HQ was just reissued this year BTW.
Yes, but how many respected
December 13, 2007 - 14:40 ET by Hero SquadYes, but how many respected Motown groups were also pre-fab? I realize they probably won't get in, despite the impressive body of work they did in a relatively short time... but I think they should.
Genesis absolutely should get in. Not only a huge influential group with both artistic and commercial success, but it spawned successful solo careers for Peter Gabriel, Phil Collins, Mike + the Mechanics, Steve Hackett (& GTR).
*****
"There are no stupid questions. Only stupid people who ask questions." - Chris Berman
Those Were Different
December 13, 2007 - 15:32 ET by Del DolemonteSome of those Motown groups were already established vocal groups, so they deserve to get in.
Rush
December 13, 2007 - 14:42 ET by UnsaneRush has been eligible since 1999, and as far as I know, they are still on the outside looking in.
A travesty.
Come 2013, Dream Theater had better go in!!!
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Look How Long
December 13, 2007 - 15:35 ET by Del DolemonteHey, this year's inductees The Ventures started playing in the late 1950s, so have had to wait as long as anyone!
And the Dave Clark 5 were one of the 1964 British Invasion bands. Dave Clark was one smart cookie-he early on bought the rights to all of his stuff, and still controls it.
He named names!
December 13, 2007 - 13:20 ET by Hero SquadAnd now, the alleged leaked list of players from the Mitchell report who used performance enhancing pharmeceuticals in baseball. Some expected (the Cansecos), a few surprises (Albert Pujols) and two dead (Caminiti, Kile). Thoughts?:
*****
"There are no stupid questions. Only stupid people who ask questions." - Chris Berman
Ok, I'll comment...
December 13, 2007 - 13:23 ET by sarcasmoLooks like Canseco's book, which was greeted by many whines, moans, and denials, was dead-on about the extent of steriod-use in baseball. Color me not-surprised...
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul. (All purpose anti-slander-link, sadly-needed these days...)
Lots of Yankees There!
December 13, 2007 - 14:04 ET by Del DolemonteMo Vaughn-no surprise there
Rocket Fuel
December 13, 2007 - 14:22 ET by NoMoreClintonsSo that's how Clemens pitched that long. Will it affect his chances for the HOF?
I never liked Clemens, even when he was a Red Sox
December 13, 2007 - 22:25 ET by RJ...selfish, angry, not a team player...
If he was on steroids, it might answer some questions about his aggressive behavior in the clubhouse....punching his locker, etc.
Hey Pettitte
December 13, 2007 - 14:45 ET by NoMoreClintonsYou should retire now. Disgrace.
Robert Machado? I guess the
December 13, 2007 - 15:32 ET by Hero SquadRobert Machado? I guess the results of steroid use aren't foolproof. ("In a nine-year career, Machado was a .230 hitter with 11 home runs and 61 RBI in 230 games." - Wikipedia.)
"*****
"There are no stupid questions. Only stupid people who ask questions." - Chris Berman
That explains why the
December 13, 2007 - 16:02 ET by Roger the ShrubberThat explains why the Pirates have been the "Succos" for so long. The only Pirates on the list are Abraham Nunez (who was a crappy utility infielder in the early 2000's), Jose Guillen (2+ seasons) and Raul Mondesi (who played 26 games with the Succos).
Shocking.
Jason Varitek NOT On List
December 13, 2007 - 19:46 ET by NoMoreClintonsWhere did you get this list? Jason Varitek is NOT on the list released by MLB. Stop spreading bad information.
Wouldn't it have been easier
December 13, 2007 - 20:00 ET by motherbeltWouldn't it have been easier to put out a list of players who haven't used them????
Al Gore doesn't deserve to be an American Citizen
December 13, 2007 - 13:42 ET by pickerseniorThis person should be deported as a traitor. He goes to Bali and tells everyone that we are screwing the world.
Irresponsible and vindictive quotes:
"My own country, the United States, is principally responsible for obstructing progress here in Bali," said Gore, who flew to Bali from Oslo, Norway, where he received the Nobel Peace Prize for helping alert the world to the danger of climate change."
"Over the next two years, the United States is going to be somewhere it is not now," he said. "I must tell you candidly that I cannot promise that the person who is elected will have the position I expect they will have, but I can tell you I believe it is quite likely."
This man does not deserve to speak for us from a foreign shore, and base his comments on his demented thoughts which are arrogant and self serving.
There are laws about this sort of thing. Why do we have to put up with this kind of nonsense?
"If liberals didn't live it, it doesn't exist."
GO BRONCOS!!! Cutler to
December 13, 2007 - 14:10 ET by wiwfGO BRONCOS!!! Cutler to Marshall, baby. With Young to plow through the holes in the Texans swiss cheese D.
The Rocky Mountain Collegian: Illustrating Idiocy
The native Texan Bronco fan :-)
December 13, 2007 - 14:44 ET by UnsaneI will be at the game. In my orange and blue.
(I'm a native Texan, but so what? Is it my fault I am cursed, football-wise???)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Maybe I'll break out the
December 13, 2007 - 15:33 ET by Hero SquadMaybe I'll break out the ol' Elway jersey tonight.
*****
"There are no stupid questions. Only stupid people who ask questions." - Chris Berman
Orange and Blue
December 13, 2007 - 15:36 ET by MightyMouthUnsane,
Is that the orange and "powder" blue, or the orange and "manly" blue?
I've been out of colorado so long all I've got is bronco stuff with the "sissy-before-we-could-win-instead-of-just-go-to-superbowls" blue :-)
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Powder blue versus "manly" blue
December 13, 2007 - 16:29 ET by UnsaneNo powder-blue tonight...but...if you look arond my apartment hard enough, you'll find plenty of the pre-1997 gear. Most notable are my coffee cup, and a mug. I've been a fan for over 20 years now. :-)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
I've been a fan for over 20 years now. :-)
December 13, 2007 - 16:34 ET by MightyMouthMe too!
Make sure you have your "Bronco Brick" handy to toss at the TV! :-)
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Not happy
December 14, 2007 - 18:12 ET by UnsaneFour hundred miles. The cost of tickets. The aggravation of parking in downtown Houston and taking the light rail to the game. And THIS is the thanks I get!!!
Texans 31, Broncos 13.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.............................................
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Look on the bright side...
December 14, 2007 - 18:14 ET by MightyMouthMost of the fans left the stadium happy!
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
No bright side!!!
December 14, 2007 - 18:19 ET by UnsaneWell, hell, let's look on the bright side of a train wreck!
I wanted a situation like in 2001, when the Broncos beat the Cowgirls at TX Stadium, and I got to walk out of the stadium telling off all of the losers.
As I did not get that, there IS no bright side.
Oh yeah, except for this: yesterday was a testament to how weak the Texan fans are. They were all scurrying for the exits to begin the fourth, instead of enjoying the entire game. Look, I know from personal experience that Loop 610, Kirby Dr and Fannin St all SUCK, but come on! Show a smidgen of loyalty!
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Team Clinton Does It Again
December 13, 2007 - 18:40 ET by Del DolemonteCONCORD, N.H. -- Bill Shaheen has resigned as co-chairman of Hillary Rodham Clinton's presidential campaign, reported WMUR-TV in Manchester, N.H.
The resignation comes in the midst of fallout over comments Shaheen made regarding candidate Barack Obama's past drug use.
Shaheen earlier said he regrets having made the comments.
In an interview with The Washington Post, Shaheen said the Democratic party should beware of picking Obama as its candidate because Republicans could dredge up his past.
In his memoir, "Dreams from My Father," Obama wrote that as a teen he smoked marijuana and drank alcohol, and occasionally would snort cocaine.
The Clinton campaign said it had nothing to do with the comments, and Shaheen himself is now backing away from them.
Del, I just heard Chris Matthews say that there's no way
December 13, 2007 - 19:15 ET by RJShaheen will remain out of the campaign. He's too connected in NH and too important to the Clinton campaign. They'll find a way to keep him involved.
Chrissie's Been Wrong Before
December 13, 2007 - 20:34 ET by Del DolemonteIt's possible, but Sheehan's toxic for the time being. And the NH primary is almost upon us anyway.
If she does bring him back, it would mean she's in more trouble in NH than the polls would indicate.
On a lighter note....one
December 13, 2007 - 19:56 ET by motherbeltOn a lighter note....one can always hope, right???
Dummie Funnies
AFJ says waterboarding = torture
December 14, 2007 - 09:44 ET by LeonThe Armed Forces Journal had some tough words for all of you conservatives that support waterboarding, aka torture.
They went for the throats of faux conservative, Giuliani & our newest scumbag AG, Mukasey concerning their support of torture.
Let AFJ be crystal clear on a subject where these men are opaque: Waterboarding is a torture technique that has its history rooted in the Spanish Inquisition. In 1947, the U.S. prosecuted a Japanese military officer for carrying out a form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian during World War II.
Waterboarding inflicts on its victims the terror of imminent death. And as with all torture techniques, it is, therefore, an inherently flawed method for gaining reliable information. In short, it doesn’t work. That blunt truth means all U.S. leaders, present and future, should be clear on the issue.
I'm going to listen to them over all these other nancies like Giuliani.
Waterboarding = torture, and America doesn't torture. End of story.
In 1947, the U.S.
December 14, 2007 - 09:57 ET by Jack BauerFake and rather opaque comparison. Civilians were expressly protected by the Rules of War against mal-treatment. So therefore that cannot equate with captured fighters not following the Rules of War, aka the Geneva Conventions.
Had the Japanese captured a U.S. spy or a member of the military out of uniform, they would actually have been protected in dealing out summary punishment, including death.
However -- it was the treatment of U.S., British, Australian, New Zealand, and other Commonwealth military captured in uniform on the battlefields which constituted war crimes.
And, of course, the gross cruelty, starvation, murder and general mistretament of civilians which is prosecutable.
I'm shocked that such an august organ would seek to mislead with that comparison. A very opaque argument indeed, from them.
Yukio Asano
December 15, 2007 - 00:08 ET by well99"In 1947, the U.S. prosecuted a Japanese military officer for carrying out a form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian during World War II."
Yukio Asano
Defendant: Asano, Yukio
Docket Date: 53/ May 1 - 28, 1947, Yokohama, Japan
Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs.
Specifications:beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; water torture; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward
http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~warcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Asano.htm
I believe this is the case.
Waterboarding inflicts on
December 14, 2007 - 10:24 ET by dscottWaterboarding inflicts on its victims the terror of imminent death. And as with all torture techniques, it is, therefore, an inherently flawed method for gaining reliable information. In short, it doesn’t work. That blunt truth means all U.S. leaders, present and future, should be clear on the issue.
Really? Is that why KSM, the 911 planner, gave up valuable info after 90 seconds? http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2007/nov/05/three-cheers-for-waterboarding-al-qaida-leaders/
Waterboarding makes tight-lipped terrorists talk. At least three major al-Qaida leaders reportedly have been waterboarded, most notably Khalid Sheik Mohammed.
KSM, as intelligence agencies call him, directed the Sept. 11 attacks, which killed 2,978 people and injured at least 7,356. "I am the head of the al- Qaida military committee," he told Al Jazeera in April 2002. "And yes, we did it." While some doubt his claim, KSM reportedly said, "I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew Daniel Pearl in the City of Karachi, Pakistan."
After U.S. and Pakistani authorities captured KSM in 2003, he stayed mum for months. Interrogators eventually waterboarded him — for just 90 seconds. KSM "didn't resist," one CIA veteran said in the Aug. 13 New Yorker. "He sang right away."
KSM's revelations helped authorities arrest at least six major terrorists:
Read the article, apparently someone at the AFJ is playing at revisionist history which then leads us to the snarky comment about conservatives. and BTW, Americans following the rules of War concerning captured soldiers never guarranteed the safety of Americans who were captured. WWII and Gulf War I taught that lesson repeatedly. Please spare us the "high moral ground argument of us lowering ourselves or compromising our values", scaring the crap out of someone is not anywhere in the same league as pulling out finger nails, putting electric wires to a persons genetalia, etc. which was done to our troops. When you purposefully murder 3000 civilians (non combatants) you lose any protection of the criminal legal system never mind the rules of War.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
dscotty -- the fact is,
December 14, 2007 - 10:39 ET by Jack Bauerdscotty -- the fact is, torture does work in eliciting information.
The McCain example is bogus because the N.Vietnamese were not trying to get info when they tortured him and fellow GI's for years.
They did it just to torment their helpless captives.
That's the nauseating hypocrisy of liberals. They have to say torture doesn't work because it would force them to admit an ugly truth.
Now I can respect someone who says they would never use torture even they know it would get info which could save one, ten, hundreds, or thousands of lives -- well not really, but I would respect their honesty.
However I will never respect liberals who use bogus "claims" to justify not acting to save innnocent live. They are the immoral ones.
So come on liberals, admit it. You would rather see innocent lives lost than disturb your own sensitive sensibilities..
For Leon
December 14, 2007 - 18:26 ET by UnsaneWaterboarding = torture, and America doesn't torture. End of story. Unless, of course, the government announced that torture was being carried out in the name of "social justice". In which case you would volunteer to help, as would countless Leftists.
(I wonder if we can keep the POWs/enemy combatants at the Waldorf Astoria instead? I bet even then that the Leftists would whine that the idea of them being denied room service there would be "torture", as convoluted as their definition of "torture" is.)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.