For general discussion and debate. Possible talking point: Subprime bailout. What do you think about it?
Is a program that will lock in a troubled borrower's teaser rate for five years fair to folks who borrowed money at virtually the same time, aren't having difficulties,and, therefore, will likely now have much higher interest rates and payments than those in trouble? Wouldn't this be rewarding fiscal irresponsibility rather than folks who saved, budgeted, and spent wisely?
In essence, wouldn't our government once again be rewarding bad behavior rather than good behavior? Or, does the end justify the means inasmuch as this could prevent a hit to the economy and is the moral thing to do?



















Editor at Large
Comments Policy
why not bail me out?
December 6, 2007 - 09:57 ET by SouthJersey1953I made a bad financial decision a few years ago. Should I have cried so that BIG GOVERNMENT could have bailed me out?
Good grief, people. Take some responsibilities for your decisions.
It is NOT the government's job to protect everyone from themselves.....
No RINOs in '08 - Mike Huckabee is the best choice
}}---> Me too SouthJersey
December 6, 2007 - 10:03 ET by Cool ArrowI lost a house back in '85 due to a dumb decision. Lost the down payment too. Paid one off since and never asked the Government to bail me out.
Buying "nothing down" is nothing more than "rent to own".
As long as there....
December 6, 2007 - 10:07 ET by Prester John....is no federal money going to bail out borrowers or lenders (which is what I understand with this proposal) and it's strictly between the buyer and the mortgage company I say ok.
Otherwise forget it.
}}---> Hillary's Mortgage plan
December 6, 2007 - 10:12 ET by Cool ArrowHillary's talking about a 5 year moratorium on ARM adjustments. If that isn't a bailout. . .
Kinda makes you want to go
December 6, 2007 - 10:17 ET by general companyKinda makes you want to go buy a house well out of your means, so you can get the feds to pay for it. I guess they just dont see the domino effect it will have, or maybe they do?
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
The politicians know
December 6, 2007 - 10:23 ET by HypocriteHaterThe politicians know exactly what they're doing....buying votes. Just another handout to get the citizens dependent on the government so they'll keep getting voted in.
This may be rewarding bad
December 6, 2007 - 10:12 ET by MidAmericaThis may be rewarding bad or irresponsible behavior but the government does that all the time, in many ways and it's mostly for politics. With Iraq receding as an issue the economy is about the only thing left to base the election on. The media aready seems to be driving this issue. Politics is as much about appearrances as reality. So incumbant politicians have to be doing something about the main concern of the electorate or they will be voted out.
Folks, I am back in from a
December 6, 2007 - 10:12 ET by BDFolks, I am back in from a long time in the field.....
The recent newscasts of the National Intelligence Estimate simply shows that the press does not understand the US Intelligence establishment well if at all.
If you were to poll al of the analysts from each of the 16 Intelligence agencies (DIA, CIA, NSA, DoS Intel, DOE, etc) you would find obvious differences in what each of the agencies feels regarding the subject.
So it all depends WHO is the final editor to see what comes out in the wash.
From what I have heard it is DoS Intel who did the final editing and therefore it will undoubtedly follow their position which is usually "Diplomacy at all costs."
Welcome back BD and God
December 6, 2007 - 11:00 ET by Airforce_5_OWelcome back BD and God bless you. Thanks for your service and I hope you have a great and Merry Christmas.
Tell you family I am glad they are there for you and you for the rest of us.
I have a fish named Mohammad, and my son has a stuffed toy named Jesus. The Muslims want my head and Kieth says I'm going to Hell.
Welcome in your safe return, BD!
December 6, 2007 - 11:11 ET by RJI've missed your perspective.
Hi BD... Welcome
December 6, 2007 - 11:21 ET by Clear thinkerHi BD...
Welcome home!
Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/ Rush then stated that the conservative was Fred Thompson
Hi BD!
December 6, 2007 - 11:57 ET by candanceWelcome home! Thank God you're safely back with us. And thank you dearly for your service in keeping us all safe.
The answer is an obvious "yes."
December 6, 2007 - 10:15 ET by sarcasmoThis kind of bailout rewards irresponsible behavior and distorts already-distorted markets more, to the detriment of the poor and middle class and to the benefit of the already-rich. Nothing new about it, this is classic "moral hazard" happening, and taxpayers' grandkids are the unwilling insurance company.
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
}}---> Foreclosures
December 6, 2007 - 10:20 ET by Cool ArrowRight sarc.
Far be it from the Government to allow new home buyers a chance at more affordable housing at corrected prices.
clap-trap
December 6, 2007 - 10:42 ET by iveseenitallMore "liberal" clap-trap. Under the guise of "caring", we've gotten our young people in debt over their heads for their "wants", not their needs. To a modern liberal "afforadable housing" is around 400 grand. Don't listen to the "liberal" line on this one; it reeks with their typical insincerity.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
I'm with you on this one
December 6, 2007 - 10:25 ET by MightyMouthI'm with you on this one Sarc, the guberment isn't going to bail me out if I am unlucky enough to get into financial trouble. So why, pray tell, do people who bought more house then they can afford be bailed out? Not to mention the industry that enabled them!
Another checkmark goes on my "things I don't like about our president" list. btw, both sides of my list are equalizing fast.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
with ya too sarc
December 6, 2007 - 12:02 ET by candanceBush is trying his darnedest to bail out these homeowners without it looking like a government bailout. As a president, he has good ideas and bad ideas, and this is one of his bad ideas.
Alsmost makes me wish I'd signed a mortgage for a house above my means with a high ARM because my credit sucks and then wait for the government to say "okay we can't have you homeless so we'll just help you out."
No wonder people are paying hundreds of thousands for houses made of plywood.
subprime mortgage
December 6, 2007 - 10:24 ET by shawn228This is absurd, I am very surprised that Bush is going along with this. Is this move to preserve our economy or to bail out people that have made a really bad decision?
Consequences! there must be CONSEQUENCES!!!
December 6, 2007 - 23:47 ET by UnsaneI don't like it either, just the same as I don't want there to be virtually any government meddling in the market or coddling of those who make bad decisions.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
ARM "victims" got to live in a nice house for a few yrs at least
December 6, 2007 - 10:25 ET by JayTeeto quote Ann Coulter above....
If the Market was left alone, The Free market would handle excess home foreclosures via the rental option, and people kicked out of their "mistake" would then be able to turn around and Rent the house for less than paying their ARM mortgage.
This Government bailout is for a few........as identified in above comments it's a political issue...more of the Political BS about "Billions for Iraq" why not spend some at home instead of abroad ?
I would like to think that the Banks can make money at a FIXED rate equal to or exceeding the Prime.....if the home owners cannot even pay a Fixed rate, then foreclosures will still appear on the horizon.
Dems and republicans came down on the same side of this, a non-partisan Issue...NOW, come down on the same side of IMMIGRATION, or suffer the same electorial fate as you would for a failing to pass this ill advised bailout of a few Americans...BUILD THE FENCE for ALL of the Americans !!
What good is a Free Press, if it is a False Press ? David Foote GoE
And now, today's
December 6, 2007 - 10:27 ET by Roger the ShrubberAnd now, today's Action-Packed-in-honor-of-BD's-Return edition of The Shrub Report®:
Global Warming caused a record low temperature in Pittsburgh last night, a 30-year old record.
How about a Religion of Peace Update? And another? And another?
FBI makes major bust at Bengals game. For a change, no Bengals were involved.
Here is a Scrooge update, and a Bah, Humbug update. And a "Ha Ha Ha" update.
Here's another Leon's insurmountable Evidence that Iraq is in the Midst of a Civil War Update. And here's another example of how Iran is not influencing and fomenting unrest in Iraq. Syria, too.
Here is new TV special I am excited about!
What's a good Progressive to do? Ban or support the First Amendment?
They, like, you know, like, totally terrorized us!
Fast Eddie Rendell, Incredible Judge of Character.
A Damn That Bush Economy Update. And another. The press tries to spin Christmas shopping as "sluggish", "limp", and "shaky", but offer very little evidence. In Europe, the glory of Socialism is touted.
The Quote of the Day: On December 6, 1941, when journalist Joseph Harsch asked whether the Japanese might try to bomb Pearl Harbor, Adm. Husband Kimmel, commanding the Pacific Fleet, replied, “I don’t think they’d be such damned fools.”
And finally, on this date, in 2000, Colonel Klink was finally sent to the Eastern Front. RIP, Werner Klemperer…
You know, with so many
December 6, 2007 - 11:36 ET by Hero SquadYou know, with so many things causing global warming these days, I'm expecting any day now a report that declares the Internet causes global warming... and Al Gore officially becomes his own worst enemy.
Of course, that announcement will be followed by another push to tax the Internet under the guise that the money will be used to offset the Internet's impact on global warming, and for other granola initiatives.
*****
"There are no stupid questions. Only stupid people who ask questions." - Chris Berman
The game's in Pittsburgh
December 6, 2007 - 23:46 ET by JoeBobThe game's in Pittsburgh and you reference the felons to the Bengals? Bah. You got a steel(er) plate in your head like your QB?
Without recognizing the ordinances of Heaven, it is impossible to be a superior man. - Confucious
JoeBob
December 6, 2007 - 23:51 ET bygee i thought the game was in Foxborough
"everytime you take a shower you are a mass murderer" -- the Profff
Last Sunday's (12/02) game
December 7, 2007 - 00:00 ET by JoeBobLast Sunday's (12/02) game was in Pittsburgh and Rog calls the Bengals out?! It's almost like leaving off a (D) after a senator's name :)
Without recognizing the ordinances of Heaven, it is impossible to be a superior man. - Confucious
This just blows!!!
December 6, 2007 - 10:27 ET by kdizzydazeWhen my wife and I bought a house in Naples, FL back in 2003 - we were made all sorts of crazy offers (complete with balloon payments - no interest the first five years, etc.). When we were told we could afford a home in excess of $600,000, we simply had to laugh. We did the most basic of math and knew we did not need that much house and we also knew that based on our incomes at the time there was absolutely no way we could afford it!!!
We ended up getting a fixed rate and got a loan for $230,000 for the home we actually wanted (it made my wife's demanding short list).
My question, based on this news of the gubment covering the unwise lendees is, will the government come back to me and people like me who are reponsible and offer us five years of a reduced rate? Cut our rates in half for the five years as a reward for being responsible.
This only signals that the government is fast becoming that nanny you never had (or wanted) --
Government rules on taxation:
If it moves - tax it, if it keeps on moving regulate it, if it stops moving, subsidize it
Hell in a handbasket
good idea that will never happen
December 6, 2007 - 12:20 ET by SouthJersey1953Government only rewards stupidity, not responsibility
(I had a better answer, but computer burped and I lost it - didn't feel like recreating it)
No RINOs in '08 - Mike Huckabee is the best choice
Let the market handle it.
December 6, 2007 - 10:34 ET by Dave in TexasGeez, aren't there any politicians left who will just give the market time to work things out. Saw this article a few days ago. Housing slump hits Houston renters in wallets. Of course it's slanted to make the current housing "crisis" sound like pain, pain, and more pain for everybody except evil, greedy landlords and banks, but it did contain a few key points that you don't hear too much about.
While overall occupancy is flat in Houston — influenced by more than
10,000 new units under construction — rental growth is strengthening,
said Bruce McClenny, president of Apartment Data Services.
"There's enough people looking for apartments right now, and
absorption is strong enough to keep prospective renters coming in and
renting, to give (landlords) the confidence to hold and move their
rents," McClenny said.
Of the 16,500 units under construction, more than 5,000 will be
delivered into the supply by the end of the year, according to
Apartment Data Services.
Typical government ....
December 6, 2007 - 10:38 ET by tenthreeleader...As someone who wouldn't have touched an ARM on a bet when I bought my first house a few years ago, I'm upset.
I did it right - I searched for a good, fixed rate in a nice house at a price I could afford. And now, my Federal government is going to give people who didn't do it right an advantage my family doesn't get.
No good deed goes unpunished. And in this case it seems more annoying than usual.
Typical "liberal" government
December 6, 2007 - 10:53 ET by iveseenitallTypical "liberal" government. Modern "liberalism" is modern "communism". People need to listen carefully to the likes of Clinton, Obama, and Edwards.
Good for you, tenth. It's young people like you who keep us strong for the long haul.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
I'm OK with a
December 6, 2007 - 11:41 ET by Hero SquadI'm OK with a "moratorium" only if it includes a provision that at the end of the period, the lender can charge a rate above the highest rate for up to five years as compensation.
That gives the irresponsible homeowner five years to get their act together, save the extra cash, or sell the house and buy something your (symbol for the Democratic party) can actually afford.
*****
"There are no stupid questions. Only stupid people who ask questions." - Chris Berman
a) We don't have Democrat
December 6, 2007 - 12:52 ET by Evil Capitalista) We don't have Democrat administration. We have Republican administration
b) This is hitting 200 years of contract law. It is an extremely stupid plan. Government has no standing in this. I certainly hope there are tons of lawsuits to stop this.
c) This is significantly mess up not just bond markets but entire US economy due to counter-party defaults.
-
December 6, 2007 - 13:41 ET by dahliatraversThis is hitting 200 years of contract law.
Good point.
This is a bad idea. And Hillary's is worse.
WND busts Newsweak-bias
December 6, 2007 - 10:59 ET by sarcasmoToobin-style, with the facts. This is fish-in-a-barrel easy. I think Newsweak will be out of business as a magazine within the next 5 years. They have no credibility left with me, but that's been true for years...Now others are catching-on, too.
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
The Newsweek article
December 6, 2007 - 11:13 ET by Jack BauerThis is the standard playbook for what used to be enquiring journalism. You don't have to support Ron Paul to recognize this brazen ploy for what it is.
Unless the subject fits in with the cosy platitudes and Institutional Leftism which pervades the media, like the smell from a pig farm, then any contrary view has be set up immediately as something to be feared.
You want a discussion about the possible errosion of the US constitution... you're try to scare people. Unhappy that your border is being crossed with impunity -- you're a racist.
And so on. To be a leftist when the people are instictively "conservative" in its widest terms, means always having to shut down the chance of dissent and debate.
How can you let the people really challenge the social, economic and political policies which have failed spectaculary wherever you look around the world.
Romney said:
December 6, 2007 - 10:59 ET by vrwc13"A person should not be elected because of his faith nor should he be rejected because of his faith"
I got two problems with that:
v
Actually vrwc, your man said the same thing this morning
December 6, 2007 - 11:04 ET by RJ"Mitt Romney should not be judged by his fitness to be president based on his religion." -Mike Huckabee
And, you're just being disingenuous and/or silly to claim that Romney is trying to TELL you how to determine to vote.
"Mitt Romney should not be judged
December 6, 2007 - 11:15 ET by vrwc13"Mitt Romney should not be judged by his fitness to be president based on his religion." -Mike Huckabee
Don't agree with that either.
Article Two of the Constitution sets the qualifications required to become president. Presidents must be:
After that it's all a personal choice. Period.
v
God first, family second, country third.
As I said, vrwc, you're no better than the "godless Marxists"
December 6, 2007 - 11:17 ET by RJYour bigotry puts you in bed with the Socialist/Marxists in this way:
If Romney is nominated and you refuse to vote, your non-vote will be exactly the same as a Marxist vote FOR Hillary or one of the other anti-religious left.
You, vrwc, will be instrumental in moving America AWAY from a faith-based society.
RJ get off your high horse...
December 6, 2007 - 11:25 ET by vrwc13...I never said I would refuse to vote.
And two, your slanderous comments of bigotry and Socialist/Marrxists are rude and uncalled for.
Any further unqualified insults and namecalling will be reported to NB.
v
good day RJ
Being disgusted by religious bigotry is not being on a "high hor
December 6, 2007 - 11:35 ET by RJBeing disgusted by religious bigotry is not being on a "high horse", vrwc.
Sorry if throwing a little light into your ugly postings bothers you.
If you're unable to understand my accurate description of how your bigoted actions play into the hands of the Socialist/Marxists....then don't just threaten me.....go ahead and "report" me.
BTW, you DID say you would either not vote or use a write in.
Wrong RJ, I said I would
December 6, 2007 - 11:38 ET by vrwc13Wrong RJ, I said I would vote for third party or write-in. Get your facts right or don't respond to me.
v
Boo
December 6, 2007 - 11:42 ET by RJDeny it all you want. You said it. Glad to see you've changed your mind....something you won't allow Romney to do.
Wrong again RJ. Now prove it or apoligize.
December 6, 2007 - 12:07 ET by vrwc13Wrong again RJ. Now prove it or apoligize.
edit: Take your time RJ, search furiously, you won't find it.
v
No problem, vrwc
December 6, 2007 - 12:27 ET by RJI gave up a long time ago on NB's cumbersome "search" system. We'll just have to disagree.
The search feature on NB
December 6, 2007 - 12:29 ET by Free StinkerThe search feature on NB stinks.
It used to be
December 6, 2007 - 12:33 ET by Jack BauerIt used to be fantastic.
Now it's worse than a liberal in a crisis. Doesn't work, and goes round in ever-decreasing circles.
LOL! I nominate you
December 6, 2007 - 12:44 ET by Free StinkerLOL!
I nominate you for the next Noel Shepherd Turn-of-Phrase Award. ;-)
}}---> vrwc and his vote
December 6, 2007 - 12:26 ET by Cool ArrowHe's right. vrwc can vote any way he wants for any reason he wants. There aren't any of us who don't take our biases into the polling booth.
It's popularly believed Nixon won the debate among those who listened on radio while Kennedy won among those who watched on TV. That's an indicator of bias.
Let me pose this: All other aspects being equal, who among you would vote for a devout Muslim over a Christian?
We tend to care a whole lot for our personal comfort zones. Religion is certainly one of those facets.
Never said he couldn't, Cool
December 6, 2007 - 12:41 ET by RJHe can absolutely vote for anyone he wants....but he (and anyone else) must also accept responsibility for the outcome. If that outcome helps the secularists, the Socialists and/or the Marxists, that must be accepted too.
Sure, make any vote you like, but do it with a clear idea of who you really help.
vrwc
December 6, 2007 - 11:29 ET by Free Stinkervrwc,
As an Evangelical, I have many, many, issues with Mormanism, but I will vote for Romney over any of the Democratic pack, especially Hillary when the general election comes around. JFK was a Catholic, Carter is a Baptist, and GWB is Evangelical, but I don't recall any of them forcing their religion on the country. I can not imagine Romney being any different.
By all means go ahead and oppose Romney in the primaries. ut please think twice if he is the nominee.
I won't even try to convince you he is not "bad". I'm just asking you to discern the difference between bad and worse.
This is my stance also. We
December 6, 2007 - 11:37 ET by dvdaughtryThis is my stance also. We (religous right) lost our control in drips and drabs. Why do we think we should have it back in one fell swoop?
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
Free, what if it's Guiliani?
December 6, 2007 - 11:53 ET by vrwc13"Yes, I fear President Rudy Giuliani far more than I fear President Hillary Rodham Clinton, and here's why..."
v
The thing to do then is
December 6, 2007 - 11:57 ET by Free StinkerThe thing to do then is make sure we Thompson nominated.
And before you point out he is divorced, so was Reagan. And JFK & Clinton have/had sham marriages . . .
Free, is is why it is so important to get the "right" one...
December 6, 2007 - 12:06 ET by vrwc13If Rudy Giuliani is the Republican presidential nominee, I will follow James Dobson and walk away from the Republican Party rather than vote for a promise breaking, serial philandering, pro-gay rights, pro-abortion rights, anti-gun liberal who happened to be at the right place at the right time on 9/11.
If my vote for a third-party candidate or not casting a vote for president helps elect Hillary or another liberal Democrat, so be it! Jane Chastain
Other than "not voting", I couldn't agree more...
v
vrwc - you and Jane are correct
December 6, 2007 - 12:19 ET by Free Stinkervrwc - you and Jane are correct that there are numerous things about Rudy not to like, but some of the more egregious are overblown.
In 1994, he openly opposed the candidacy of Pataki and his proposal to
cut the state income tax rate, in favor of liberal Democrat Mario
Cuomo.
I remember this well. I line in Northern NJ and I can assure Rudy knew if he didn't support Pataki, there would be no punishment should Pataki win, but I have no doubt that Cuomo would have been gunning for Rudy, if Rudy backed Pataki & Cuomo won anyway. Jane even admits in the article that many $ reforms came from the State, and in many ways the Governor can tie the Mayors hands. I recall Bloomberg speaking on his weekly radio show (with John Gambling) and he was discusing how some 50-60% of the city budget is out of the Mayor's controll, and depends on Albany.
Giuliani, takes credit for a drop in crime in New York City.
Which he does deserve.
However, a nationwide trend had begun before Giuliani took office, and
the man he appointed police commissioner, Bernard Kerik, pleaded guilty to ethics charges and is now facing a 16-count federal indictment.
Giulliani's previous commissioner didn't have any problems, and Rudy spoke on Imus this morning (only reason I tuned in) and when asked about this he stated that he didn't do a good enough job of vetting Kerik, that he was one of hundreds of people Rudy appointed - just 1 - but Rudy also stated that it is was responsibility, and he will be much more thorough in the future.
Rudy has also stated that he would appoit "strict constructionists" to the Courts "guys like Alito" I believe he said.
And even if we nominated a "Perfect" president, we still need a "perfect" congress to back them up . . . meaning, we all need to get to work and push for the right Reps & Senators
Then the GOP has lost my
December 6, 2007 - 12:05 ET by Dan The Man 2Then the GOP has lost my vote. There is not much difference between Gulliani and the Dims. Abortion is a break or make point. As with the Israelites we may need to endure 400 years in bondage to Egypt or or 40 years in the wilderness. Either way God wins and that is the main thing in fact the only thing we need to worry about.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
I read the entire transcript
December 6, 2007 - 12:26 ET by SouthJersey1953Although Mitt is currently my 2nd choice, I really liked his speech. Well done.
No RINOs in '08 - Mike Huckabee is the best choice
V, I consider you a friend
December 6, 2007 - 11:24 ET by Airforce_5_OV, I consider you a friend here, and we have had our diffences on many things but dude you have got it out for Romney big time.
What about a Jew? Would you elect a Jew based on your Christian tenets, because they killed Christ? (For our Jewish friends here I am just making a point). The hatred of the Jewish faith by Christians through the centuries is documented. The witch hunts of Salem were done in the name of Christian belief.
So do I base my decision for President based what “Christians” have done?
Please.
Come on and drop this RDS (Romney Derangement Syndrome) and talk the real issues. You are a one issue person. It kills me because I think you are more intelligent then that.
I could careless what faith they are as long as they up hold and do what they are elected to do. You “what if” and “Christian this” to death this issue. As a matter of fact it is just getting old.
I have a fish named Mohammad, and my son has a stuffed toy named Jesus. The Muslims want my head and Kieth says I'm going to Hell.
AF_5_0, I respect your
December 6, 2007 - 11:36 ET by vrwc13AF_5_0, I respect your opinion and appreciate when others respect mine.
But as I posted, there are only 3 qualifications for President of the U.S.. The rest of one's determination is left to the individual.
Personally, my faith is foremost in all I do. It defines who I am. I am blessed with a right to vote for people to "represent" me. And I have the right to chose people to represent me who align not only with my political views, but personal ones, i.e. right-to-life, gun ownership, and the right to worship as one pleases.
Thank God we have those rights, for now.
v
V, I get it, but you have
December 6, 2007 - 11:55 ET by Airforce_5_OV, I get it, but you have to admit your RDS makes hard sometimes to talk to you.
I am glad you speak your mind but it becomes a urinary olympics and we start eatting our own. We need to unite as a people to defeat the liberals who do want to put into place what you fear most.
I am done with it now. This is my last post on it with you. We understand each others position and agree to disagree.
I have a fish named Mohammad, and my son has a stuffed toy named Jesus. The Muslims want my head and Kieth says I'm going to Hell.
AF, The previous thread only
December 6, 2007 - 11:58 ET by Chris NormanAF,
The previous thread only confirms my position that nothing good ever comes from a discussion of religious beliefs. I stay a mile away from them.
LOL Chris Point well
December 6, 2007 - 12:06 ET by Airforce_5_OLOL Chris
Point well taken.
I'm going to duck Tape my head now.
I have a fish named Mohammad, and my son has a stuffed toy named Jesus. The Muslims want my head and Kieth says I'm going to Hell.
Lest we get caught in the
December 6, 2007 - 12:08 ET by Chris NormanLest we get caught in the cross fire... :)
Chris you couldn't be more
December 6, 2007 - 12:13 ET by Dan The Man 2Chris you couldn't be more wrong about such discussions. Particpating in them make my beliefs stronger and make me think about why and what I believe. We should be able to defend what we believe with facts and figures along with explainations. This is why the Dims are weak in that they have few good facts and cant adequately explain anything.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Spot on Dan. Unfortunelty
December 6, 2007 - 12:17 ET by dvdaughtrySpot on Dan. Unfortunelty the emotional side comes up in religious discussions and anger fills the dialogue (or monologues?).
If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
"Unfortunelty the emotional
December 6, 2007 - 12:21 ET by Chris Norman"Unfortunelty the emotional side comes up in religious discussions and anger fills the dialogue..."
DV,
You made my point for me.
If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
December 6, 2007 - 12:35 ET by vrwc13If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
I like that dvd. Hope you don't mind if I use it time to time.
And I will take your implied advice and try to keep it calm. I am expected to.
v
vrwc13
December 6, 2007 - 12:37 ET by MrShyIf you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.
I love that! I might want to make that my new signature :)
"I still love NewsBusters." - Mr. Shy
All yours, because it isn't
December 6, 2007 - 15:44 ET by dvdaughtryAll yours, because it isn't mine. Heard it all the time in high school (small Pentecostal place) from various sources.
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
Dan, If that is your
December 6, 2007 - 12:20 ET by Chris NormanDan,
If that is your experience, then by all means, go ahead and discuss. I, however, have had far different experiences. All I see are friends hurting each other over one of most personal aspects of their lives. I will continue to steer clear of religious discussions. Period.
Chris that is where we
December 6, 2007 - 12:45 ET by Dan The Man 2Chris that is where we recognize the laws of diminishing results. Even Jesus recognized this when he told his disciples "Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet" and so sshall we heed his wisdom.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Okay.
December 6, 2007 - 12:55 ET by Chris NormanOkay.
this is just out there
December 6, 2007 - 12:39 ET by candanceAn an evangelical myself I appreciate the desire to vote for a fellow believer, but it's not the be-all-end-all of politics.
Abraham Lincoln believed in Christ but was not as faithful as Huckabee and was torn on the issue of slavery. Yet I believe God put him in office for such a time as that. JFK was Catholic yet he did his best to stop Communism from taking over the west. Reagan was divorced and was not exactly a Baptist minister, but he saved America and brought down the Soviet empire.
Likewise, I'm sure Huckabee is a good man but that's no promise he'll be another Lincoln or another Reagan. I've heard Huck say he doesn't want America passing around democracy, he didn't want us in Iraq at the start, he wants to spend money like water for every cause out there, and like we talked about yesterday he's weak on immigration.
Romney was not telling you how to vote, and like the others pointed out, if Huck made that same speech you'd be okay with it. All Romney was saying is give me chance and don't judge my leadership over doctrine.
Even if someone were agnostic, Jewish, whatever, if they were pro-life, pro-gun, pro-military and believed in small government, I'd be all over it.
And come on, equating Mormonism with Satanism is just wrong. That's apples and oranges.
Rudy, Hillary, Mitt to WND: Drop dead
December 6, 2007 - 11:06 ET by vrwc13Rudy, Hillary, Mitt to WND: Drop dead
Campaigns silent, refuse to answer even simple questions about issues WND
v
The reason that Christianity is the best friend of government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart.
Thomas Jefferson
BAILOUT
December 6, 2007 - 11:13 ET by lastconservativeinmaThis is a Citibank bailout. Robert Rueben's finger prints are all over this. I have a mortgage company and most of the people in this situation have liar loans anyway. Never should have been in the house in the first place. No income verification loans were the worst thing ever invented. And remember congress passed this law in 95 to help the poor folks get into homes. No down, no equity no reason for them to keep up on the payments because they are not losing anything that is theirs. Don't really feel sorry for them and sure don't want to bail them out and we will. If the banks are freezing the rates it does not mean that the investors that bought the bundled loans will forgive the banks and that's where the taxpayer money will come in.
Mark my words,
OK, but only if they add one more condition..
December 6, 2007 - 11:39 ET by Mark_for_SenateThe only way I could accept any type of 'bail-out' is if they add an enforcable clause which would permanently revoke their right to vote if accepting Government help to 'ease' their poor financial decision. I could then live with that! Otherwise, NO WAY.
To know and not do, is to not yet know
"investors" There must be a
December 6, 2007 - 12:17 ET by Rackie"investors"
There must be a more appropriate term for these types.
Are they any different than a home buyer who signed up for a "screw me over" mortage with the idea that someday he'd find a bigger fool than he is to buy his house at an inflated price?
Snow!
December 6, 2007 - 11:29 ET by iveseenitallJust got a call from an in-law in Vermont. She can't get out of the house for the snow. "Are there no cars or smoke stacks in Vermont", I asked. "Oh yes," she said, "but they're not stopping the 12 inches we got overnight." Global Warming reeks with intellectual dishoneasty. It's typical "liberalisn". Don't believe what you see with your own eyes, only believe what a "liberal" tells you is true. Commies do this all the time. Read history.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
The war at the border...
December 6, 2007 - 11:29 ET by rx4musicIn San Diego County, just across the border from Tecate, Mexico, a new smuggling tunnel was discovered and over 13K of marijuana was confiscated. Less than one day later, armed gunmen with automatic weapons broke into the house of the #2 cop in Tecate and shot him an estimated 45 times while his wife and kids were held in another room. Local officials say it's very likely the two are connected and the gunmen are trying to send a message to the police... Why is there no report of this on the national news? Why do people look the other way when things like this are happening at our border? The Border Patrol are ill-equipped to handle the sort of weaponry the drug cartels have been investing in. Where are the Feds and why won't they do something? This is only a fraction of what is going on at our southern border. Look at the news in Texas (Laredo to be specific) and tell me we are not at war with Mexico....
WTH?? Who is the presidential candidate on EITHER side who will do something? Or, will ANYthing be done at all?
Someone tunnelled under the
December 6, 2007 - 11:38 ET by BruzillaSomeone tunnelled under the vaunted San Diego wall? Wow... who saw that coming?
I see, putting up a barrier
December 6, 2007 - 12:01 ET by dscottI see, putting up a barrier that stops most individuals (illegals) from easily crossing the border is useless because organized crime can tunnel under it to smuggle drugs. Have I clearly stated your premise? I see a problem with your logic, do you?
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
IMO this a coverup for the
December 6, 2007 - 11:44 ET by dscottIMO this a coverup for the banking regulators who screwed up in the first place. First, banks were encouraged to make loans by Freddie Mac's loose lending regs, then Freddie Mac slams on the breaks by over tightening the rules to the point new borrowers can't get loans. So I'm going to straddle the fence here and blame all of the players involved namely Freddie Mac, the banks and the borrowers. Remember banks make loans and then SELL them via Freddie Mac. Who sets the terms of those loans: Freddie Mac. Now a bailout in the form of a rate freeze is necessary because these dufus bureaucrats can't get the point of doing a cost benefit analysis BEFORE they enact their bright ideas.
The more immediate issue is liquidity in the credit market where mortgages are concerned. Why? Because the borrowers could bail themselves out by refinancing their loans since interest rates are low, but because of the dufus bureaucrats insisting on tight credit requirements they can't do a refinance. Why? Because the banks at this point are scared to loan any more money in this sector and they are instead focusing on credit cards where their profit margin is higher and they have significantly less regulatory risk. Why? Because if you remember the politicians making noises about blaming the Banks for making loans to borderline risk borrowers (encouraged by Freddie Mac's terms) and thus sticking them with the bill. And there you have it, government incompetence. The housing market debacle is squarely laid at the feet of the government for their utter stupidity, thus it takes a govenment bail out to solve a government instigated problem.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
Freddie regulations did not
December 6, 2007 - 12:55 ET by Evil CapitalistFreddie regulations did not change. Do not confuse mortgages bought by Freddie and Fannie with mortgages funded via SIVs.
Sorry, the facts say they
December 6, 2007 - 13:48 ET by dscottSorry, the facts say they did tighten up credit terms: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/28/business/28mortgage.html?ref=business It was being discussed in February of this year.
In a sign of that wariness, Freddie Mac, one of the largest buyers of mortgages, said yesterday that it would tighten lending standards and stop buying certain kinds of risky home loans made to borrowers with weak, or subprime, credit records.
The move comes as default rates are rising, smaller lenders are starting to fail and investors are shunning bonds backed by mortgages.
The ugly truth here is the whole thing back fired on them and snow balled. They initially tightened up the terms because of rising default rates of people who shouldn't have gotten loans beyond their means to pay. Now these people with such loans can not refinance precisely because the terms they initially were approved under no longer exist, so their screwed. And since they can't sell their house to anyone else because of the heightened credit terms on new mortgages it is difficult to buy a house, hence few buyers, so they're screwed again!
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/28/yourmoney/mortgage.php
Senator Christopher Dodd, Democrat of Connecticut, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, lauded Freddie Mac's move. "This is a responsible standard that ensures that these borrowers will have the ability to repay their loans, thereby protecting their home equity," he said in a statement.
Roughly half the subprime mortgage- backed securities that Freddie Mac now owns would likely fall short of the new standards, the company estimates.
Bottom line, government regulators screwed everybody. These idiots made the situation worse by over reacting. Whether you like it or not, the government made the current mess and they are now obligated to clean it up.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
You are wrong. Please read
December 6, 2007 - 13:59 ET by Evil CapitalistYou are wrong. Please read the filings, not interpretation of people who don't even know what a subprime is: all mortgages are either prime or subprime. Any mortgage made at a rate higher than the spot prime rate is a subprime mortgage even if it is only 0.01% more. That's number #1.
#2 - for Fannie and Freddie to buy mortgage, it must be 20% equity ( 20% down), it must have escrows, it must have documented income via tax returns and its value must meet certain LTV requirements. Total value must be under $417k
Right now it only matters what LTV is when Fannie and Freddie buy the mortgage. With value of the homes falling, Freddie and Fannie will start tightening on LTV at the signing where 80% won't cut it in certain markets.
evil -- I'm fairly
December 6, 2007 - 14:09 ET by Jack Bauerevil -- I'm fairly uninformed on this issue, and you seem well armed with data.
Would I be correct in thinking that there has been a very long campaign by race hustlers to force lending institutions to lend to totally unsuitable applicants?
And that such institutions have cravenly complied for fear of being called racist -- and subjected to the full panoply of race baiting?
"Our" race-hustlers may indeed be part of the puzzle, Jack.
December 6, 2007 - 14:25 ET by sarcasmoBut rest-assured, the fiscal irresponsibility problem isn't just in the USA. Of course, for all I know, y'all have your own Jackson/Sharpton/etc. and I'm just blessed to know nothing about 'em!
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
sarc -- yes, I imagine the
December 7, 2007 - 09:34 ET by Jack Bauersarc -- yes, I imagine the situation is similar.
When I took out my first mortgage in the mid-80s, the "building societies" would only led to a maximum of three times your annual income.
Over the years that's slippeed up to five times, and that started once banks got into the house lending market in the 1990s.
Yes. The concept of "down
December 6, 2007 - 14:45 ET by Evil CapitalistYes. The concept of "down payment" was called discriminatory.
You have to realize that downpayment is the only thing that makes a borrower not walk away from the property in first serveral years. Should you not have a downpayment, you can borrow the money against the house you want to live in, make a couple payments, drag it though foreclosure process and finally walk away from the house. It is the loss of the down payment in situation like makes it non-economical for borrower to walk away without paying.
You are missing the other
December 6, 2007 - 14:18 ET by dscottYou are missing the other requirements, i.e. credit worthiness or the credit score. From the Congressional hearings, half of the people in the subprime market no longer qualify!!!!!!!!! When you disqualify such a large pool of potential buyers, you automatically create a situation where large numbers of potential borrowers for refinance and home buyers are no longer participating in the market. Hence, sellers can't sell their homes and get stuck with two mortgage payments (old and new house), which also leads to more defaults. And with the loss of borrowers, who needs employees to handle such transactions in the mortgage and title insurance and real estate agents... It's no mystery why this has happened.
Trust me, I have no pitty on the house flippers (drove up prices) and home builders who added to this mess who by dumping excess inventory on the market nor the illegals whom they employed to build those houses. They deserve going belly up, but a lot of other people are being hurt by this.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
You are missing the other
December 6, 2007 - 14:43 ET by Evil CapitalistYou are missing the other requirements, i.e. credit worthiness or the credit score.
You are confusing FHA loans/any other loans with loan paper that can be bought by Freddie or Fannie. What you are describing is what might be used to underwrite the loan. Neither Freddie nor Fannie underwrite them. Freddie and Fannie purchase the loans from the underwriters as long as those loans meet Freddie and Fannie guidelines.
People with bad credit worthness are unlikely to have the needed downpayment (20% on 100,000 home is $20,000 that must be brought to closing ), making loans given to them not-eligible due to Loan to Value (LTV) requirement from Freddie and Fannie, forcing such loans into SIVs.
I suggest you read Freddie
December 6, 2007 - 14:49 ET by dscottI suggest you read Freddie Mac's correspondence: http://www.ots.treas.gov/docs/9/962832.pdf
It says they did change the credit requirements on the loans they buy from the banks who make the loans. I.E. The banks can not sell a loan to Freddie Mac unless the borrower conforms to their credit requirements.
We believe that the anti-steering and prepayment penalty requirements under consideration by the agencies wil be particularly beneficial to subprime borrowers. With respect to steering, borrowers should be informed about the mortgage products for which they qualify so that they can select the mortgage that best meets their housing finance needs. Borrowers who seek financing through a higher-priced subprime lending chanel should be informed about, and given the opportunity to apply for, the standard mortgage product line if the borrower qualifies for a standard product. Our prepayment penalty requirements are consistent with the agencies ' Proposed Statement requiring the existence of a prepayment penalty and its features to be disclosed. Furher, these requirements are designed to offer borrowers better choices and better information with which to make those choices.
We also suggest that a requirement of full-fie credit reporting will assist some subprime borrowers in improving their credit. Freddie Mac requires the reporting of favorable as well as unfavorable payment information to the major credit bureaus. Reporting of complete credit information about a borrower ensures that future credit decisions about that borrower will be made fairly and potentially at lower cost. Full-fie credit reporting is particularly helpful to subprime borrowers who are attempting to improve their credit.
Now where are they talking about FHA loans?????
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
Neither Freddie nor Fannie originate loans
December 6, 2007 - 15:25 ET by Evil CapitalistAgain, neither Freddie nor Fannie originate loans. You can't get a Freddie Mac loan. It is IMPOSSIBLE. Freddie and Fannie can buy a loan from the bank as long as it meets certain requirements. Freddie and Fannie were setup to be buyers of last resort for stale secondary mortgage market. It is still the case. Should Freddie and Fannie buy a loan and keep it on Freddie/Fannie books, Freddie and Fannie will have to service the loan. Right now, servicing of the loan does not force Freddie or Fannie to report borrowers payment history to credit bureaus unless Freddie or Fannie already reported it once ( of course in reality they report it all the time as it is too complicated to report only some sort of payments). The only time they are guaranteed to report payment history is if it is negative.
Regulation on what kind of loans Freddie and Fannie can buy had not changed. It is what CFC currently is pushing for because they want to offload their toxic loans onto Freddie and Fannie. Read paperwork filed by Freddie and Fannie, not a proposed statement.
Creditworthness of a borrower is related only to loan ORIGINATION because mortgage is a TERM loan. The terms are stated up front. They do not change unless the borrower re-finances ( or unless the government steps in as it seems to be doing in this case ). Since neither Freddie nor Fannie originate loans, credit worthness of an individual to them is irrelevant - the loan was already originated.
FICO is invention of Fair Isaac and as the scoring system it constantly changes to adjust to new realities - for example in January when all credit reporting agencies upgrade to the latest FICO we will have lots of score drops across the board as to deal with "authorized user" fraud FICO ignore data from AU-type accounts.
this will just delay the inevitable
December 6, 2007 - 11:56 ET by jdubThese people cannot afford a $300k or $400k mortgage at 8 or 9%.. They got in with $0 down interest only loans, they will foreclose...sooner or later. Next there will be a bailout for the millions of people who took out all that "free" money...i mean equity in there homes and paid for trips to Disneyland and tummy tucks (I say this from experience as i did the "devils work" and sold Home Equity products)...
Darn it...why did I have to be born smart and responsible. I'm going to work on getting stupid so the government can reward me too.
It is now more evident than
December 6, 2007 - 12:00 ET by jiminjerseyIt is now more evident than ever that no one in our society will ever be held accountable for their actions.
Now we are rewarding those people who made poor financial decisions.
I want to know who is going to reimburse me for the higher interest I have been paying for the last 2 1/2 years.
You see I moved into my house 2 1/2 years ago. I bought house I could afford and took a 30 year fixed rate mortgage at 5.25%. People I know bought much nicer and bigger houses they could only afford because of the low teaser rates they were offered. I warned them the day would come that they couldn't afford their house and they didn't care less.
So because I am a responsible person I wind up paying more money to live in a smaller house and now my tax money goes to pay for their McMansions.
Only in America.
Another job well done Mr. Bush!
Of the course, when the
December 6, 2007 - 12:15 ET by dscottOf the course, when the banks made the loan and the borrower accepted the loan it was made under some now obvious faulty logic. Here are some of the premises:
1. the housing market will continue unabated in it's rising value.
2. the average family moves every 3 years, hence any loan made will be flipped long before it is ever paid off.
3. if you find it hard to make payments you can quickly and easily bail out by selling your house to someone else.
4. there will always be someone who will buy my house (liquidity).
5. buying a house is no longer for residential purposes (long term investment), it's a short term profit center.
6. anyone can get a mortgage no matter what their credit history.
All that changed over night when Freddie Mac tightened credit rules. Why did the rules change? Because scam artists figured out how to make a quick buck by flipping houses, thus the regulators changed the credit terms which then screwed everyone.
Here's a good analogy of what Freddie Mac did: people die from gun use, we will ban guns or highly regulate them to prevent people from dying.
But hey, it's all Bush's fault even though he had no power to make mortgage loans. Never mind Congress who passes the laws and Freddie Mac who manipulates the rules.
Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. dscott's corollary: The line between malice and stupidity is called depraved indifference.
No mercy, no money
December 6, 2007 - 12:06 ET by RackieBetter to have a 1,500,000 boarded up houses to serve as an object lesson. Kick the losers to the curb. That'll teach'em.
Yes it is unfair but. It
December 6, 2007 - 12:15 ET by buddycYes it is unfair but. It is voluntary and the lenders desire it. It makes sense to those lenders for good reason. It is unfair to others not in this limited group. It is unfair any anyone who overpayed for a residence or whose rates are currently too high. I assume it went only as far as the lenders would voluntarily let it go.
If it is not
December 6, 2007 - 12:58 ET by Evil CapitalistIf it is not mandatory then why is government involved? Also, please keep in mind that C, JPM, CFC or anyone else are NOT holding these mortgages. They have already been resold. Investors bought them because they were paying X% not Y%. What you have here is government forcing change in CONTRACTS.
Where's mine?
December 6, 2007 - 12:29 ET by FranksamI am okay with the concept of freezing interest rates for morons as soon as the Gov't lowers my fixed rate mortgage by an equivalent. Since this is a media critique and review site, please see the WSJ article today on the Brazilian immigrants who were ripped off not by Bank of America, but by (surprise!) other Brazilian immigrants.
The law of unintended consequences predicts that investors in bundled mortgages will hire the tort bar to recover the losses they will suffer when the financial intruments they purchased are devalued by fiat. For some funny reason, I feel like I need to put my wallet in my front pocket, again.
Liberals don't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory. -Franksam
People always ask what Lies?
December 6, 2007 - 12:53 ET by LeonWell, now we have a clear example.
Israel has known about the NIE findings for over a month.
Israel has known about the report for more than a month. The first information on it was passed on to Defense Minister Ehud Barak, and to Shaul Mofaz, who is the minister responsible for the strategic dialog with the Americans. The issue was also discussed at the Annapolis summit by Barak and U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, and it seems also between Bush and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.
Bush claims he didn't know about it until last Wednesday
Conclusion. Bush lies yet again.
Or if you actually believe he's never lied, consider this his first one. Indisputable.
Leon, first it is President
December 6, 2007 - 12:59 ET by Dan The Man 2Leon, first it is President Bush and he has not lied, unless you can submit something to the contary with specific lies he has told. I imagine Israel particpated in teh report and knew the details, and the fact they come up with something differing does not surprise me. They have all rights to do so. Link or slink.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Uh Dan, Read my post. I
December 6, 2007 - 13:01 ET by LeonUh Dan,
Read my post. I clearly showed his lie.
I'll repeat it for those of you that ride the short bus:
Bush claims he didn't hear about the NIE until the 28th.
This is a lie.
Israel has known for a month and Bush definitely spoke with Olmert on the 26th about the NIE.
He's lying about when he saw it. A lie is a lie Dan. Or at least that's what my Bible says.
A lie is a lie Dan. Or at least that's what my Bible says.
December 6, 2007 - 13:10 ET by vrwc13Your Bible Leon. Could you find where it says that? You being well versed in scripture of course.
v
"We just can't trust the American people to make those types of choices.... Government has to make those choices for people" -HRC
You are lying, I asked you
December 6, 2007 - 13:14 ET by Dan The Man 2You are lying, I asked you to link, so do it. What did the President say?
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
I am not defending the
December 6, 2007 - 13:19 ET by Roger the ShrubberI am not defending the sitting president, nor attacking him, since this whole mess is a political hit job. However, Leon, you are swallowing whole unsubstantiated hearsay from a foreign newspaper nobody ever heard of. Remember, placing idealogy ahead of the facts is irrational, and BDS is irrational. Your rabid attacking and accepting as proof flimsy "evidence" is a serious BDS trait. You seem to accept just about any information, regardless of the veracity of the source, as long as it agrees with your idealogy.
Since when did you believe Israel anyway?
December 6, 2007 - 13:00 ET by candance1) Isreal knows = George Bush knows the next day. Based on a newspaper article in Israel. As you love to say, I'm withholding judgement until all the facts come out.
2) The article you're citing makes it clear that Israel doesn't agree with Bush's assessment and is afraid Bush won't support them in their continued efforts to stop Iran and Syria.
Either way you slice it, this article does not prove Bush is a liar and does harm to your assumption the new report is accurate.
Candance, 1) Why would
December 6, 2007 - 13:03 ET by LeonCandance,
1) Why would Israel know about an American Intelligence report before the President of America?
2) Whether Israel agrees with the assessment or not is immaterial to when Bush learned about the NIE
um, okay
December 6, 2007 - 13:11 ET by candanceSo now all the sudden you're a fan of the Israeli media? Sorry Leon, but this is a weak equation. Israel knew about the report = Bush knew what the report said? We'll need more proof than that.
Unfortunately the Mossad
December 6, 2007 - 14:58 ET by ricklailUnfortunately the Mossad are a lot better at gathering intellegence in the Middle East than the US. They have a better network of spies and they have been at it longer than the CIA. It would not surprise me to know that they knew before Bush. Many of those that wrote the report had an axe to grind with Bush anyway. They could have leaked it to the Isrealis just for that reason. The Mossad knows the report is not true anyway. Let's wait and see how long it will be before the Isreali aii force bombs Iran
In 2003 the NIE said that Iraq was working on nuclear weapons. Then Bush's trip into Iraq scared the crap out of Iran and they quit according to this latest report.
Go back and reread the story you are so proud of. It says it seems that Bush and Olmert talked about it. The reporter didn't know that to be a fact. Is this paper the Isreali National Inquirer?
You keep trying to find something that is a non issue. You need to go to work with the Edwards campaign where your talents would fit in.
By the way I am going to take what my Bible says and not cast my pearls before swine or not to answer a fool according to his folly. Bye, bye Leon. I will not bother to commnent on aything you write nor should the other folks. Maybe you will go away then.
"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.” General George S. Patton.
Thompson calls for tapping Arctic oil reserves
December 6, 2007 - 13:00 ET by Clear thinkerhttp://www.fred08.com/NewsRoom/InTheNews.aspx?ID=0205f354-fde1-4376-91d6-df28bbf03190
Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/ Rush then stated that the conservative was Fred Thompson
tapping Arctic oil
December 6, 2007 - 16:08 ET by dahliatraverstapping Arctic oil reserves
I wouldn't have said this ten years ago. But until an alternate fuel source at prices equivalent to oil/gas/coal is IN HAND, we have no choice. The idea of living in a dark, unheated cave is not at all appealing.
There is more proven oil in
December 8, 2007 - 00:32 ET by NL207There is more proven oil in N. America than anywhere else on earth. The Canadian tar sands: I have seen estimates that there are 1.6-1.8 trillion bbls of recoverable reserves there. The Green River formation oil shales hold another estimated 2 Trillion bbls. By comparison, Saudi Arabia has about 275 billion bbls proven reserves. These deposits dwarf those.
Lets not forget all that coal and gas we have.
December 8, 2007 - 10:18 ET by Britcom-
No responsibility
December 6, 2007 - 13:12 ET by goldboughIt's really sad that the government is bailing out these people. Did they not read the mortgage agreement they signed? People need to take responsibility for their own actions. It's such a simple concept.
A 22-year old girl blamed the doctor's office because we didn't remind her of her appointment. She rescheduled and wanted us to remind her this time. I told her we don't do that. I wanted to say, "You're 22, remember your own appointment!"
people want everything on a silver platter
December 6, 2007 - 13:49 ET by candanceSeveral years ago I was working at a pharmacy in North Carolina. An older lady got upset because we didn't cater to her every need. She walked up to one of our pharmacists and demanded he give her his personal phone number so he could be on call.
He looked at her with a blank expression and said "If I were on call you couldn't afford me."
She complained and that guy later got fired.
American citizens are so used to liberals brainwaishing them everything should be free, that's how they see the whole economy now.
I would have said sure lady
December 6, 2007 - 14:21 ET by Dan The Man 2I would have said sure lady here it is...BR-549.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
My how I miss Hee Haw!
December 6, 2007 - 14:24 ET by MightyMouthOnly watched for the Daisy Duke clad girls but those were the good ole days!
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Spoiled rotten crybabies
December 6, 2007 - 22:12 ET by UnsanePeople are spoiled rotten crybabies now. I cannot stand working in the public eye for that reason alone. (That is one major advantage to the job I have now - working far from the whiners.)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Too funny. Rush is
December 6, 2007 - 13:17 ET by Jack BauerToo funny. Rush is reporting that polls show this, the 110th Congress is the WORST EVER.
69% agree they made a mistake voting in this congress
Jack...
December 6, 2007 - 14:48 ET by LionKingNO S--T!!! What positive has this congress acomplished?
All I can remember them doing is setting up investigations into nothingness. Dumbocrats are not the shoe-in everyone thought they would be in 2008.
lion -- conservatives
December 6, 2007 - 14:58 ET by Jack Bauerlion -- conservatives should take heart for 2008 from news like this.
It's ain't over by a long shot.
Especially if they take Rush's advice and start selecting strong, articulate, conservative Iraq vets as candidates in in play seats.
Jack...Spot On
December 6, 2007 - 15:03 ET by LionKingYou are 100% right. 2 years of nonsense cannot go unnoticed nor unpunished.
forums...
December 6, 2007 - 13:28 ET by LionKingAnyone else having problems getting to the forums?
Yep.
December 6, 2007 - 13:36 ET by KarmaYep.
No issue here. What's the
December 6, 2007 - 14:51 ET by Evil CapitalistNo issue here. What's the problem you are seeing?
US Dollar vs. Canadian Dollar
December 6, 2007 - 14:57 ET by Free StinkerUS Dollar vs. Canadian Dollar
Surprise! Where are the multitude of stories about "The Strengthening US Dollar" ?
When they do come along, we can expect "but it's still lower against the Euro" or "meanwhile, the looming depresion caused by low taxes" or "despite Bush's failed economic policies"
"George W. Bush simply reminds leftists everyday what they will never be. And they hate him for it." --Tammy Bruce
Short-term market
December 6, 2007 - 16:15 ET by Evil CapitalistShort-term market dislocation. I'd ignore it. If fed cuts the rate again, dollar will tank a lot more.
Hey, it still beats wampum
December 6, 2007 - 19:51 ET by Clear thinkerHey, it still beats wampum and sea shells!
Rush Limbaugh stated that of the top 5 Republicans running for the presidency, only one was a true conservative. http://www.fred08.com/ Rush then stated that the conservative was Fred Thompson
anyone else having trouble
December 6, 2007 - 15:04 ET by Binxlyanyone else having trouble with the forums? I posted a long thing about a current story in the media and then it just crapped out. Now anytime I try to access it, it comes to a page displaying only the number '2.' Anyone else having this problem?
Yep.
December 6, 2007 - 15:09 ET by KarmaYep.
Working now, he said to
December 6, 2007 - 15:11 ET by KarmaWorking now, he said to himself.
Funny how there haven't been any hysterical reports on the MSM..
December 6, 2007 - 15:44 ET by Prester John...on how oil has dropped to under $90/barrel and that the cost of gasoline has dropped almost 10% ($2.99 to $2.75 here outside of D.C.) in the last week or so.
Are those chirping crickets I hear in the distance?
Where's The Beef?
December 6, 2007 - 19:29 ET by Del DolemonteFinally got to see the end of the Monday Night Football game last night on NFL Network (I had missed it as it happened, only hearing the radio play by play).
Gaffney DID have possession, IMHO. And the Ravens imploded in the end as well.
One of the Baltimore writers admitted Tuesday morning:
"As for the game itself, it's difficult to feel much sympathy for the Ravens today. If they were truly robbed, you have to at least concede that they opened the vault doors and drew a yellow line leading the thieving Pats to the loot.
You don't give a team like the Patriots and a quarterback like Brady as many chances as the Ravens did last night. You don't make so many silly penalties and you don't call senseless timeouts."
Drudge reports that liberal
December 6, 2007 - 20:55 ET by Chris NormanDrudge reports that San Francisco liberal radio host Bernie Ward has ben indicted on child pornography charges. His agent is actually suggesting he's being prosecuted because he's a critic of President Bush, and this is some kind of retaliation -I kid you not.
To Foreclose; or Not to Foreclose, that is the Question
December 6, 2007 - 21:24 ET by BritcomThe current subprime "bailout" legislation is hardly a bailout. It helps a very narrow segment of the market and does nothing to help those already affected.
But the question is should the government help these people? Well, since the government helped break the market, then yes, it should help fix it. The question then becomes how to help fix it.
The mortgage lenders don't have an answer for it because a real answer would reveal that they are bankrupt themselves and if that were to be revealed the home lending industry, and the home building industry would both collapse. Lenders have painted themselves into a corner and it is their own fault because they never had any intention of holding these subprime (read: bad risk) loans. They wanted to make a quick buck and dump the inevitable problem on someone else. That someone else turned out to be Wall Street fund managers.
The problem is, that practice may have been illegal and nobody wants to open up that Pandora's box and find out; so the government and mortgage companies have to prop up the mortgage industry before it collapses at least long enough so that home owners/voters can refinance their possibly predatory loans into more acceptable and workable loans rather than pull the rug out from under lenders in court, which is starting to happen.
Apparently the mortgage industry practice of pooling mortagage debt into Wall Street investment securities may have created a catch 22 where forclosure is not a legal option in many cases, which means that if the home owner defaults, the apparant owner of the note may not be able to prove ownership of the debt. That means that the courts may not grant foreclosures on such loans and homeowners may not get evicted if they can't pay up. That means that something has to be done before billions of dollars in mortgage debt evaporate and collapse the banking system. Or not... if you're not a big fan of the current banking system; you can just sit back and watch them commit financial suicide. The bill for this will be bigger than the S&L collapse and Enron combined.
Are you gonna pick up the tab on this one too?
Stupid bumper sticker of the day
December 6, 2007 - 22:14 ET by Unsane"Clinton Ruined a Dress, Bush Ruined a Nation"
As a wise poster once said, if you can fit your entire political philosophy on a bumper sticker, chances are it's a shallow one.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
-
December 6, 2007 - 23:43 ET by dahliatraversAnd speaking of bumper stickers, for the longest time, I thought the ones that said "January 20, 2009" referred to a doomsday cult.
Turns out the intended meaning is not much less stupid.
Indicator
December 6, 2007 - 23:55 ET by UnsaneThe people who ahve those bumper stickers are the ones that cannot breathe, urinate, defecate or (insert numerous essential bodily functions here) without a government bureaucrat holding their hand the entire time.
Because Bush won't be that guy, they are angry.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
ANOTHER reason to love the "Money Honey"
December 6, 2007 - 22:17 ET by UnsaneFor those who missed it, go to Limbaugh's site. Maria Bartiromo interviewed Hillary Clinton, and she had some awesome questions lying in wait. The clips I heard of this interview was simply awesome.
I have always had a soft spot for Maria, but now??? (sigh) :-)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Unsane
December 6, 2007 - 22:31 ET by shawn228I probably won't get a chance to say this for another three yrs, but my Raiders took your Broncos to School last week:)
The freakin' Raiduhs
December 6, 2007 - 23:58 ET by Unsane...and that was the Raiders' season right there. Unsane is STILL in an evil mood, since the Broncos vs. bears...
At least my Spurs are kicking ass right out of the gate!
(By the way, shawn, one of the things I want to do before I die is go to a Broncos game IN Oakland, in orange and blue, head to toe, with a seat in the heart of The Black Hole. Whaddya think?)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
unsane
December 7, 2007 - 00:08 ET by shawn228Like you said to me in a post before, you should go there all liquared up so the blows don't hurt much.
Drink more beer! It will numb the pain!
December 7, 2007 - 00:12 ET by Free StinkerThat's what we tell the enemy fans at Giants Stadium
"Drink more beer! It will numb the pain!" (of losing)
Oops!
December 7, 2007 - 00:32 ET by UnsaneI forgot I had posted that to you before, but then, I CRS.
Think of my dream of seeing a Broncos game at Oakland as akin to running with the bulls in Pamplona. :-)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
raiduhs
December 7, 2007 - 00:38 ET by shawn228I was just telling bt the other day, I will be watching Peyton Manning live in a few weeks. Nose bleeds but it will be cool especially if they let Jemarcus Russell be the starting QB.
PS, you left out the part about telling off Darth Raider:)
What I would do to Darth Raider
December 7, 2007 - 00:44 ET by Unsane...that's more like walking up to Darth Raider, and shoving him in the chest, and saying "what up, b$!#h, you're going DOWN today!!!" (or something to that effect)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Larry Craig Art imitates life
December 6, 2007 - 23:55 ET by shawn228I never really watched Boston Legal, but I found this spoof pretty funny. William Shatners character is accused of toe tapping. Few shots at Mitt Romney as well regarding approving gay unions, but not approving of them now. Yes it is Liberal humor, but I thought it was pretty funny.
Boston Legal spoofs Larry Craig
I wonder when we'll see one
December 7, 2007 - 00:02 ET by Free StinkerI wonder when we'll see one of these TV shows use hypocrytical Democrats as source material?
Meanwhile, I wonder if Craig has finally realized his public service career is over?
fs
December 7, 2007 - 00:17 ET by shawn228Did you watch the skit free?
Gag - Lawyer TV
December 7, 2007 - 00:24 ET by Free StinkerNo, but only because I avoid Lawyer shows like the plague.
I'll take you word that it was funny.
fs
December 7, 2007 - 00:29 ET by shawn228Gotta find myself new entertainment with the writer strike going on. Except for American Idol, I have never been big on Reality TV. Greys, Heroes, Ghost Whisperer, Prison Break have pretty much no new shows and my other favorites 24 and Lost will not return til the strike is over. As you can tell I have no life and love my tv.
Jericho is coming on Feb
December 7, 2007 - 00:42 ET by Free StinkerJericho is coming on Feb 21(?) with seven new episodes for their abreviated season 2 . . .
assuming the strike lasts that long.
cool fs
December 7, 2007 - 00:47 ET by shawn228That is cool fs, just proves what some die hard fans can do huh? Wasn't that show left for dead, but angry fans revived the show right?
The pilot ran way back in 1983
December 7, 2007 - 00:56 ET by UnsaneI maintain ABC needs to sue CBS over that series.
It IS The Day After: The Series after all.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Now that show sucked. I
December 7, 2007 - 01:00 ET by shawn228Now that show sucked. I remember I was in 7th grade about the end of the cold war. I was really looking forward to it. I watched it and was like wtf?
Hey Oblio
December 7, 2007 - 01:05 ET by BlondeHad you been living out in the middle of missle silo land, as I was, when "The Day After" came out...you'd have had nightmares, as I did.
Merely a matter of perspective.
But a scary one.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
My experience
December 7, 2007 - 07:02 ET by UnsaneI was in third grade when my parents let me see it...actually, invited me to see it (as long as it wasn't porn, my parents would let me watch ANYTHING). I was learning about the Cold War, living in Germany and all. Naturally, I hung on every reference made in the movie to Berlin and other German locales. But, I had no idea what nuclear weapons were.
I found out about them rather quickly that night.
By the way, the bombing scene from The Day After is way better than the one in, say, Terminator 2...because in The Day After, they used the footage with the trees. :-)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
bombing scene
December 7, 2007 - 10:03 ET by shawn228The bombing scene was cool "special effects wise back then" It was also good to learn about how devasting a nucleur war would be. It just seemed to really drag after that scene. I remember my teacher in Canada gave us an hour to write letters to US President Reagan encouraging him to dismantle the nukes. I think I might have been the only kid to say, the US should have nukes to protect themselves. He thought I was insane.
Memories...
December 7, 2007 - 22:28 ET by UnsaneI remember that scene from the movie very very well. Like it was yesterday. Not just because I had NEVER seen anything like that in my eight years, but also because my father was explaining everything that was happening in excruciating detail.
Funny thing is, I think everyone in my third grade class saw it.
You know, I had a teacher in Germany who had us do the same thing. He didn't like my reasoning, and I told all the other students my reasoning. The letter was written on the board, and it said something like "Dear President Reagan...please don't start a war." Or some such. The teacher came 'round to see we were all writing the letter. He demanded to know why I wasn't writing it. I told him (something to this effect):
"Mr. (I won't identify the dude, I do remember his name quite well), President Reagan is a very busy guy. He's busy running the country, working with Congress, and traveling all over the world to talk to other rulers. He won't have time to read a bunch of letters from a bunch of little kids."
Say, why weren't you kids writing PM Mulroney? (I am guessing Mulroney, of course there were two other PMs, Trudeau and Turner, during Reagan's time.) Among other things, Mulroney allowed the United States to test cruise missiles in northern Canada.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
unsane
December 7, 2007 - 23:35 ET by shawn228He's busy running the country, working with Congress, and traveling all
over the world to talk to other rulers. He won't have time to read a
bunch of letters from a bunch of little kids.
Stubburn even as a third grader huh ? :)
Say, why weren't you kids writing PM Mulroney? (I am guessing
Mulroney, of course there were two other PMs, Trudeau and
Turner, during Reagan's time.) Among other things, Mulroney allowed
the United States to test cruise missiles in northern Canada.
The Prime Minister back them was Trudeau. One of my classmates actually got a response from one of Reagans secretaries. Mulroney was Reagans b*tch, NAFTA would not have happenned under Chrieten.
Canada, memories...damn, how old are you anyways?
December 7, 2007 - 23:54 ET by UnsaneTrudeau was your PM then? Damn, I bet you are the same age as I am, then. Believe it or not, I remember when Trudeau's resignation made headlines in The Stars and Stripes (I am guessing the Canadian Forces troops stationed in Germany at the time also read that paper.)
...and when Turner got to be PM for awhile before Mulroney won the '84 elections...
I would have to disagree with your analysis. (I will concede this: Liberals tend to like Dems; Tories tend to like Republicans. Kennedy and Diefenbaker hated each other. Nixon once referred to Trudeau behind the scenes as "that asshole.") October 1988 saw one of the most heated elections in Canadian history. It was Turner vs. Mulroney again, and I remember them well. The divisive issue? The US-Canada Free Trade Agreement. I remember seeing a clip of a debate where those two got into it. Turner was laying into Mulroney, and he screamed over him, "I LOVE CANADA!!!" before continuing to make his point.
The campaign commercials the Liberals put out then also played on those age-old Canadian fears of absorption into the U.S. I saw one where two fictional negotiators were sitting at a table with a map of North America, while the U.S. negotiator was busy erasing the border between Canada and the U.S. The commercial ends with the Canadian negotiator angrily redrawing the border with a red marker. Yet, in spite of all this, Mulroney won the 1988 election.
If Canadians didn't want that free trade agreement, or NAFTA, I suspect that Mulroney would have been tossed from office then (though I will concede that PM Campbell had to get NAFTA ratified before the Tory implosion of October 1993.)
(You know, it blows me away that for all but about three years of my life, all of Canada's PMs have been from Quebec...)
Stubburn even as a third grader huh ? shawn...you have NO idea. Really, you have NO idea. NONE. :-)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
unsane
December 8, 2007 - 00:12 ET by shawn228Canada, memories...damn, how old are you anyways?
36 I suspect only about 3-4 yrs younger than you.
The opposite is true
December 8, 2007 - 21:05 ET by Unsaneshawn, your OLDER than I am??? with some of your discussions of video games and other related comments, I coulda SWORE you were younger than me!
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
unsane
December 8, 2007 - 22:28 ET by shawn228Don't knock video games, I grew up to the atari and I just never stopped evolving. :) I guess we are similar in age. Me being the senior I guess. Did your classmates use a ridiculus amount of hairspray?
For shawn the elder :-)
December 9, 2007 - 22:24 ET by UnsaneI don't indulge in hypocrisy so I CAN'T knock you for video games. I started on Pong, moved up to the Atari 2600, and later got a Nintendo. I never got another video game system, I switched to PC once I started getting computers. My fave game right now would be SimCity4 (yes, even now, though I got the game in 2003!), the RushHour version with greater trans options.
Only my best friend ever consumed large quantities of hairspray...that I am aware of. (For which I still slam him relentlessly.)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Unsane
December 9, 2007 - 22:43 ET by shawn228Unsane, growing up sucks. Married, one child, two homes, two mortgages. Playing video games is the only things that gives me the illusion I don't have grown up responsiblities anymore.
Unfortunately I am fooling myself. I cannot believe how much homework, grade schoolers have these days, I bought a whole bunch of new games for which I have time to play.
For the grownup
December 9, 2007 - 23:01 ET by UnsaneThat's why you should do what I do. Don't Get Married. :-)
Perhaps one day I'll get a house of my own...will it be in San Antonio...or Houston? Don't know...gotta pass through grad school first!
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Unsane
December 9, 2007 - 23:08 ET by shawn228The decision to get married was mutual, the decision to have children was my wife's. Your lucky where you live, house is still affordable, I live in the Bay Area. Even though prices have dropped. A Decent size home will still cost over 500 000 easily. Is stuff like hurricane insurance mandatory where you live?
Shawn the Elder
December 9, 2007 - 23:22 ET by UnsaneTo borrow a phrase from Jim Rome: "You live in A City by A Body of Water!!!"
TX is extremely laissez faire, and Houston is even MORE laissez faire than TX! (Houston is the largest city in America to NOT have a zoning ordinance; it has been voted down three times by Houston voters.) Hence, in this state, you basically aren't required to do anything insurance wise (unless you drive of course). Now, the banks might force you to as a condition of the mortgage, but I don't live in a home; I got an apartment.
When I took out insurance on the apartment, I was told that, at least in my case, that there was no such thing as "hurricane insurance", as most of the damage from them in apartments is water damage, in which case a renter's policy that covered floods would be good enough. In TX, we watch the Gulf carefully for hurricanes. Houston exists BECAUSE of them. Galveston was destroyed by a storm that made Katrina look like a Sunday picnic in 1900, and as a result, Buffalo Bayou was widened in 1914 into the Houston Ship Channel. Galveston never recovered; Houston blew up as a result of that and of course the oil industry. But anyways...if you visit the TX coast, signs of hurricane prep are EVERYWHERE.
San Antonio gets hit by lots of rain from hurricanes, and evacuees. But not much else.
(When I lived in Anchorage, I had an earthquake clause in my policy. I imagine you might have the same!)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Neal, Should we be shopping to impact 2008?
December 7, 2007 - 02:30 ET by Parker1227It is clear that the Libs are praying (to whatever) that Iraq will get worse and the economy will falter just in time for them to blame Bush one last time and gain control of the government.
The average Joe can't do too much to influence Iraq, but we can go out and spend a few extra bucks at Christmas and throughout the year to help ward off recession.
Letter from Thomas Jefferson - "I Have Sworn Upon the Altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
Can someone please tell me
December 7, 2007 - 09:07 ET by LeonCan someone please tell me that the 'research' excuse doesn't work when you get caught looking at child porn?
What kind of research could you possibly be doing? Furthermore, the only people that should be doing any sort of 'research' on child porn is the cops.
I've never heard of Bernie Ward before today, but I hope they lock him up so I never have to hear of him again.
LINK
If your show is called GodTalk, you should probably refrain from doing sick & creepy & immoral & illegal & insanely damaging things like looking at child porn.
What is it about a career in the church that makes people sick and diseased? Or do pedophiles join the church with the explicit intent of molesting children/exploiting children?
Leon's traded in his broad
December 7, 2007 - 09:18 ET by MassConservLeon's traded in his broad brush for the industrial version of a wagner power painter.
If your show is called
December 7, 2007 - 09:22 ET by dvdaughtryIf your show is called GodTalk, you should probably refrain from doing sick & creepy & immoral & illegal & insanely damaging things like looking at child porn.
No doubt it's dispicable, but there is no one that is righteous. He deserves the fullest extent of the law.
What is it about a career in the church that makes people sick and diseased?
That is a gross over exaggeration.
I've never heard of Bernie Ward before today, but I hope they lock him up so I never have to hear of him again.
I think I have heard that about someone else, somewhere before...
Or do pedophiles join the church with the explicit intent of molesting children/exploiting children?
I am sure churches are a prime target for pedophiles.
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
What is it about a career
December 7, 2007 - 09:27 ET by Jack BauerDunno, Ask the Rev. Jackson. He's an expert, I hear.
Ha Jack! I'd rather
December 7, 2007 - 09:34 ET by LeonHa Jack!
I'd rather not. Try to limit his reason's for speaking as much as possible.
Let's see..
December 7, 2007 - 09:40 ET by MightyMouthLeon now adds church goers to his list of people he hates. So we have:
Fat people.
Republicans.
People who go to church.
Did I miss anyone?
Pretty soon the only ones left will be Leon and his dog spankme.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Kind of covered
December 7, 2007 - 12:38 ET by vrwc13Kind of covered church-goers with his Bible -thumpers rant.
But he did admit going to his church with his "good old Bible". Go figure.
Btw: don't forget:
v
"At least I am a guy and not desperately trying to be one." Leon
Bummer the guy is a raving
December 7, 2007 - 13:56 ET by Roger the ShrubberBummer the guy is a raving moonbat Liberal and not a evil Neo-Con Rethug.
shrubbo -- I knew that
December 7, 2007 - 14:08 ET by Jack Bauershrubbo -- I knew that first thing, but didn't think I'd mention it as too soon -- rope, hang yourself, etc.
He must be one of those liberal believers who want to 'take back' their relgion from 'conservative' evangelicals!
Jackson, I fully expect Leon
December 7, 2007 - 14:16 ET by Roger the ShrubberJackson, I fully expect Leon to now disappear from this thread, like he has done on dozens others, once it was pointed out he was a dumbass.
Anyone else catch
December 9, 2007 - 22:50 ET by BlazerAnyone else catch this?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3480595,00.html
You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "
- Ben Kenobi on Liberals, and the MSM.