For general discussion and debate. Possible talking point: A new face for Australia.
What does Kevin Rudd and his Labor Party's sweeping victory Saturday mean to the US? Is it a metaphysical certitude this will get a lot more attention from our press than Sarkozy's stunning victory in France earlier this year?














Comments Policy
also on tommorows front page
November 24, 2007 - 11:30 ET by botgshould be this latest Hamas opposition to peace statement
Yes, you are even more annoying than Blonde. the EYE
Oh, yeah, since the
November 24, 2007 - 12:05 ET by motherbeltOh, yeah, since the conservative lost, there will be dancing in the streets; it will probably be played as a repudiation of Howard's friendship toward the US "hyperpower", etc.
<sarc>Whereas the election of the conservative Sarkozy didn't mean squat. <sarc off>
Update: it is already being called a "humiliation" for Howard (Drudge). And MyWay News is hightlighting the Liberal Kevin's Rudd promises to sign the Kyoto Treaty and withdraw Australia's troops from Iraq.
It will be interesting to see how the MSM here portray it.
Damn shame. I like
November 24, 2007 - 18:03 ET by RESTLESS 1Damn shame. I like Australians. I guess it is no more Australian Shiraz for me. Had to swear off of Chivas for awhile, until the French came to their senses and elected Sarkozy.
Great article in the Weekly Standard on Iraq
November 24, 2007 - 11:57 ET by Prester JohnA devastating critique of the Dems and Iraq.
My favorite quote:
"Seldom before in the annals of governance have so many politicians fought so long and so hard to completely screw up a winning strategy being waged on their country's behalf. "
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/405lrbpc.asp
another fairytale from neocon standard
November 24, 2007 - 12:13 ET by professor truthIraq was a complete disaster that accomplished the opposite of it's intended goals with the one exception of giving away billions of dollars to war profiteers and other criminal cronies. Thomas Ricks book,"FIASCO", is a devastating critique which describes step aby step the somplete incompetence and fantasyland thinking of the neocons along with all their disastrous decisons and their ignorance and hubris. Until one reads FIASCO, one hasn't a clue of the complete stupidity and incompetence of the Bush Junta in committing this war crime, and it was a war crime just as surely as the Nazi invasion of Poland was a war crime.
another kool-aid induced
November 24, 2007 - 12:27 ET by botgtalking point laden, BDS driven psychotic break from reality post
Yes, you are even more annoying than Blonde. the EYE
You forgot
November 24, 2007 - 12:36 ET by motherbeltYou forgot "epithet-larded."
botg, BDS is like your get out of jail free card
November 24, 2007 - 23:44 ET by professor truthHow about OJ derangement syndrome, or Hillary and Bill(Clinton derangement syndrome, or Gore derangement syndrome. Can't argue those facts, botg??
facts
November 24, 2007 - 23:56 ET by botgwhat facts are you talking about? You come out with Kos or Media Matters talking point drivel which can't be substantiated and I'm not going to take you seriously so you get called a name. Don't act like you don't know this. When you are straight with me you get a straight response. When you try talking points you get an equally appropriate response
GoHunter08
"...the Bush Junta in
November 24, 2007 - 13:40 ET by GregE"...the Bush Junta in committing this war crime, and it was a war crime just
as surely as the Nazi invasion of Poland was a war crime...."
Ahh yes, of course. Invading a country to oust a dictator who was a true enemy of the USA, who the entire world said had WMD, who was firing at American planes patrolling the UN-established Iraq no-fly zone, who attempted to assassinate an American president, who thumbed his nose at 17 UN resolutions again while the world was sure he had WMD, is just as the Nazi invasion of Poland was.
Brilliant. The liberal blogs await your presence.
The no fly zone was not UN sanctioned
November 24, 2007 - 13:50 ET by professor truthit was enforced by the US but not by the UN. It is a war crime to aggressively start a war according to both the UN charter and Nuremberg principles that stated that "the supreme war crime is an aggressive war". Every reasonable person knows that Iraq posed no grave and gathering threat. In fact, WMD inspections which turned up NOTHING were stopped by the war criminals. This is an undeniable fact. The inspections showed no WMD's, but the war criminals insisted that WMD's were there. The war criminal in chief even joked about WMD's(maybe he could have joked about this in front of the families of the 15 thousand dead US soldiers and thirty thousand maimed soldiers' families and tens of thousands of PTSD suffering soldiers)? I'm sure he would have received lots of applause and laughter with this audience. Bush is a war criminal and it's time that he get impeached.
It is a war crime to
November 24, 2007 - 14:20 ET by Free ThinkerIt is a war crime to aggressively start a war according to both the UN charter and Nuremberg principles that stated that "the supreme war crime is an aggressive war".
We didn't start the war and those that did are not part of the UN nor do theylive by Nuremburg principles. You are either ignorant, naive, or blinded by your own BDS.
Free T
November 24, 2007 - 14:31 ET by botgthe profff provides good reason to get us out of the UN and the UN out of US. That bunch of wealth redistributionist biased leftists has outlived any credibility.
Yes, you are even more annoying than Blonde. the EYE
Brilliant Satire!
November 24, 2007 - 14:34 ET by Del DolemonteFirst of all, Little Professor, the No Fly Zone was actually started and enforced by not just the US, but also by France and Britain. France suddenly quit in 1998, because they were at the time climbing back into bed with Saddam.
As for the UN, who as we all know now was also in bed with Saddam (see "oil for food scandal" and "Kofi Annan's son" for starters), a mere year after the UN passed its first resolution, it ordered Saddam to comply with the allies' demand that Saddam move his forces north of the 32nd parallel--tacit approval of the no-fly zones if ever there was one.
Now, as to your "war crimes" nonsense, what about Clinton's non-UN-sanctioned war of choice in Kosovo? As I recall, he started that war in the late 1990s, at the exact same time his Justice Department indicted bin Laden for among other things being in bed with Iraq. And not just Clinton, but all of his Democrat followers, including the 2000 and 2004 Presidential nominees, all said Iraq had WMDs in 1998.
Do you support Clinton being charged with war crimes?
Oh, and by the way, what planet did you get your "15 thousand dead US soldiers" from? That's hallucinatory stuff you're ingesting there...
WMDs and the democrates
November 24, 2007 - 14:40 ET by acadia1755http://youtube.com/watch?v=i87cZ3Og6ts&feature=related
http://www.friendsof...
Professor - spread it around Bit, will ya?
November 24, 2007 - 15:28 ET by Gary HallWar Criminal Bill Clinton? Belgrade sentences Nato leaders ..." "The presiding judge said an arrest warrant had been issued for the convicted leaders, who include US President Bill Clinton..."
Prof? It's all about media bias. Mandela said the same thing, Annan was outraged, Michael Moore was beside himself, as was Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon. Same for Clinton and Iraq during the 90s'. But the media did not drag this same outspoken people into the newsroom, in print and into our homes each and every day trying to discredit a president - that remains the larger picture here. The MSM kept Jimmy Carters remarks out of the conversation - simply put - they censored it.
Hardball Nov. 7, 2005 (notice that date -- still believing it - ya think the media would ever ever repeat this again?)
MATTHEWS: What came first do you believe, Senator? Their desire to go to war or the way they looked at the evidence?
LEVIN [Senate Democrat Chair of the Senate Inteligence Committee): I think basically they decided immediately after 9/11 to go after Saddam. They began to—look there was plenty of evidence that Saddam had nuclear weapons, by the way. That is not in dispute. There is plenty of evidence of that.
Gary, I agree with you
November 24, 2007 - 15:36 ET by professor truthso there's little argument from me about Clinton, Johnson, or Carter. You see, Gary, I only try to see the truth, that's why I'm called Prof. Truth!
well good prof.
November 24, 2007 - 15:49 ET by Gary HallWell good professor. The larger goal of Newsbusters is about media bias. When the far right speaks out against a Republican admin., the media goes into a feeding frenzy. When the far left (which actually encompasses the media today) speaks out against a Democrat admin., it is censored. (;~>
Truth
November 24, 2007 - 17:24 ET by JDWPT- The SS scaremongers create worst case scenarios and never consider
SIMPLE remedies, like havingthe SS cap raised. The SS bankrupcy issue
is the biggest fraud perpetrated on the public, considering that there will always be money flowing into the fund....
Why doesn't all of this mung sound any different to me than what I read and/or hear from the libs?
I consider myself to be partially intelligent, why would I want to pay more in Social Security taxes knowing up front I will never see a penny? Who would not be better off putting cash in tackle boxes, storing them in their attic, earning zero interest, yet having something to retire on?
JDW
Sen Clinton: Distinguished Founder of Media Matters
15,000 dead US soldiers?
November 25, 2007 - 11:28 ET by GregE15,000 dead US soldiers? You're tossing out arbitrary dead soldier numbers, why did you stop at 15,000? Reach for the stars and at least use six figures to make it interesting.
Proff: "....Every reasonable person knows that Iraq posed no grave and gathering threat...."
Why did the whole world said he had stockpiles of WMD? It wasn't just the Bush administration saying it. I know though the "war criminal" statements, and most others, can't be used in every conversation otherwise.
Proff: "...the supreme war crime is an aggressive war..."
What's the supreme crime against the United States, when one is the president of the United States? Would it be to sit back and watch and enemy build up an arsenal and let the enemy kill several thousand or more Americans first? I'm more interested and in favor of an American president stepping up to protect his own country, than to satisfy the Socialists,Communists, etc that are the UN and that want nothing more than for the USA to be brought down to the level of their third world societies.
Questions
November 25, 2007 - 02:49 ET by UnsaneWar profiteers - Prof., yes, or no - shall we shut down Boeing, GM, Ford, Chrysler, and other companies for their "war profiteering" from, say, WWI onward? Or are you just pissed the United States government doesn't directly own and control the means of production?
Also, if Iraq is going SO POORLY, why aren't our logistical bases being overrun?
That Nazi comment is so stupid from the point of view of history to even warrant a question. It merely proves you cannot think for yourself.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Busted!
November 25, 2007 - 16:56 ET by UnsaneOooohhhhh, "neocon".
So, you are a racist bigot as well as a propagandist?
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
It's great to see a breath
November 24, 2007 - 12:25 ET byIt's great to see a breath of fresh air after the fair land down unda has been under the stench of Bush administration's tentacles...
Howard has been a puppet to the military industrial complex and the war profiteers.
Dont the let the rude behavior of this amusing site get in the way of your opinions, Prof! :)
A free press is one of the first things to go in a totalitarian government. Montana Lyons
Monty
November 24, 2007 - 12:32 ET by botga little humour this morning? i found your home movies
Yes, you are even more annoying than Blonde. the EYE
ROFL!!! That's hilarious!
November 24, 2007 - 12:38 ET by motherbeltROFL!!! That's hilarious! I have to bookmark that!
Im sure if I replied
November 24, 2007 - 13:05 ET byIm sure if I replied in kind with a nice pic of your favorite prez, I would be banned. Happy Thanksgiving, Dittoheads!
A free press is one of the first things to go in a totalitarian government. Montana Lyons
You have derogatory pics of
November 24, 2007 - 13:10 ET by botgYou have derogatory pics of George Washington?
Yes, you are even more annoying than Blonde. the EYE
Or Thomas
November 24, 2007 - 17:53 ET by general companyOr Thomas
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
Ugly!
November 24, 2007 - 12:50 ET by pickerseniorIf liberals didn't live it, it doesn't exist!
keep stickin it to the war criminal enablers, Montana
November 24, 2007 - 13:54 ET by professor truthYou are 100% correct. Keep up the good fight!
shroomer
November 24, 2007 - 14:03 ET by botgshroomer buddies?????????
Yes, you are even more annoying than Blonde. the EYE
Actually...
November 24, 2007 - 14:37 ET by Del DolemonteHis successor has been working in Howard's government since 2001. Don't expect much to change.
I always hear left wing
November 24, 2007 - 16:26 ET by Gary P JacksonI always hear left wing moonbats rail on "war profiteers". Now I realize the left thinks profit, of any kind, is, by it's nature, evil. But are you really silly enough to think that companies that provide goods and services to our military (or anyone elses) should do that out of the goodness of their heart? If so, please explain how that would work.
And while you're at it, please explain how your paycheck works (in your mind). Your paycheck is nothing more than your company paying you for your services. Take away any money you directly spend on doing your job, including gasoline to and from work, and that's your "profit". So see, if you work, you are just as "evil" as us conservatives!
Again...
November 25, 2007 - 02:52 ET by Unsanemilitary industrial complex and the war profiteers. So, the United States government should totally control ALL the means of production then?
The B-17s and B-29s that won WWII (for starters) were NOT built gratis. But you Leftists cannot understand that, as both you and the "Prof" truly believe that freedom is 100% free, without any cost whatsoever.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Well said! Freedom is
November 25, 2007 - 05:22 ET by Gary P JacksonWell said!
Freedom is NEVER free!
Watch and Learn
November 24, 2007 - 13:10 ET by WoodyMNow, Australia will show us how our country would have been ruined had Al Gore been elected president.
What it all means
November 24, 2007 - 13:17 ET by Lame CherryThe people of Oz have turned out thee best leader in their history for another frump liberal. What this means is less support for the United States in our nation being more isolated.
For the people of Oz this means, they now will have more gun control, more perverted legislation and more taxes. So enjoy you mates in electing shackles..........and soon bombs to you.
That in part 2 is the key as Oz will lessen it's stance in the Asian theater so terrorists supported by China will seek to weaken that state by attacking it.
What this means in the long run is basic. There are 3 billion people to the north of Oz with no land, no fuel, no resourses, no water and now food.......but one whole lot of breeding angry citizens. Indonesia has already laid claim to Oz and China casts longing looks to make Oz a Chinese colony.
So in the world decade of schemes in Eurasian world war.......Oz just bought for itself an invasion as the Chicoms and Indonesians can easily burn 100 million soldiers, but Oz does not have the bullets nor bombs to thwart an invasion and will loose.
Loose they will as the United States is going to have it's hands full deflecting loon Chavez and the trio of commies south of us and our own China invasion which will come so China can repay all that oil Russia is pumping to it.
Little election in Oz, but the balance of Asian power has now shifted to the communists. I pray God help the Taiwanese as their poor nation is going to be incinerated to an Iwo Jima crater when this starts in the times ahead.
*HIC IACET ARTORIVS REX QVONDAM REXQVE FVTVRVS
The new prime minister has
November 24, 2007 - 14:16 ET by Free ThinkerThe new prime minister has promised to be a fiscal conservative but at the same time has said he will immediately sign the economically disastrous Kyoto agreement. I think the Aussies have been duped.
Australia
November 25, 2007 - 02:55 ET by UnsaneWell, not that I think the Kyoto Protocol is any good at all, but if Australia begins tapping its massive uranium resources and makes itself heavily reliant on nukes a la France...
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Social ¿Security?
November 24, 2007 - 13:22 ET by JDWAP- A financial disaster
I am among the many who will never see Social Security, yet the libs goal is to increase the taxable level.
If you played for the Cowboys and were told at the beginning of the season that regardless of division standings in the end the team would be ineligible for post season play, what would your attitude be?
Social Security was created as nothing more than a tax. It created more revenue for government to do with as it pleased. In other words spend, build deficits, and tax again to repair the failing program.
JDW
Sen Clinton: Distinguished Founder of Media Matters
Indeed.
November 24, 2007 - 13:24 ET by dervishNever forget that if YOU had invented that retirement scheme, YOU would be in jail.
My retirement
November 24, 2007 - 13:29 ET by JDWMy cash is hidden is tackle boxes in the attic.
JDW
Sen Clinton: Distinguished Founder of Media Matters
And ...
November 24, 2007 - 13:35 ET by dervishWhere did you say you live, again?
JDW, I'm a big cowboy fan and would be outraged
November 24, 2007 - 14:02 ET by professor truthbut you will have SS . The SS scaremongers create worst case scenarios and never consider SIMPLE remedies, like havingthe SS cap raised. The SS bankrupcy issue is the biggest fraud perpetrated on the public, considering that there will always be money flowing into the fund. But the bogus 'reforms(watchout when you hear the word 'reform') cut the amount of inflow money and divert it into the stock market casino. The worst case assumptions for SS inflows would exist under conditions where the stock market would also fail. Look at the performance of the NASDAQ over the last 8 years. Your net result is almost a 50% loss (5000 in late 99, now about 2600). Don't let the wall street snake oil salesmaen and hucksters con you. Think about the great song by the WHO,"won't get fooled again' when you hear crap about SS "reform." It really means "SS rape and pillage."
Input v. distribution
November 24, 2007 - 14:26 ET by JDW"If I gave you a dollar and your father gave you a dollar how many dollars would you have?"
"One"
"You don't know your math"
"You don't know my father"
JDW
Sen Clinton: Distinguished Founder of Media Matters
Let me ask you this
November 24, 2007 - 14:36 ET by ncstevemLet me ask you this Prof.
Should I be allowed to divert my SSI taxes to a private account if I believe I can achieve a better return on my money or should I be forced against my will to continue to send my money to the Social Security Administration (federal government)?
You mentioned that you are a teacher in a previous thread so I assume your retirement benefit is in the form of a teacher's pension. So unless you invest in a cash account you would have zero experience investing in the stock market. I certainly am no expert but I've invested in mutual funds since I graduated from school and I've averaged about a 7% return for the last 20 years. This means I double my money every 10 years.
Unfortunately you are incorrect about the long term viabilty of SSI in it's current form. There are three main reasons why it can't continue in it's current form
1. Greater number of retirees.
2. The life span continues to increase resulting in benefits being paid over a longer period of time.
3. Fewer workers in proportion to the number of retirees having to finance the benefits being paid.
People my age can expect about a 1% return on the money they send to Social Security. In the future either SSI taxes will have to be increased or benefits paid will have to decrease or a combination of both. At that point contributors will be receiving a negative return on their money.
I predict that public support for the current system will continue to decrease and eventually we'll end up with something like Chile where people put 10% of their pretax income into mutual funds to finance their retirement.
I almost did not reply
November 24, 2007 - 15:37 ET by JDWSomething seemed funny about what he said.
Teacher's pensions were created through the unions. The union demands in general have been so unreasonable companies have had no choice but to shut down. Employees were left without health care let alone a job.
Another point with regard to Social Security is the fact that the libs have opened the gates to illegals permitting them the opportunity to drink from the fountain of retirement and in turn depleting the overall supply. Fewer and fewer are adding to the fountain and more are drinking from it.
JDW
Sen Clinton: Distinguished Founder of Media Matters
ncstevem, but SS 'reforms" exacerbate any SS 'problems"
November 24, 2007 - 15:55 ET by professor truthSS has increased it's money over the past few years. Any shortfall can be mitigated by several ways: 1) extend age of retirement 2) raise the SS cap 3) raise taxes in some other way
Point (3) may not be a problem since fewer workers are needed to support each retiree(think about how much more efficient each agricultural worker is today vs the past)
Also, any economic conditions which create a shrtfall in SS funds woould do the same to all markets.
Prof--I'm not sure what you
November 24, 2007 - 17:57 ET by ncstevemProf--I'm not sure what you mean by, "SS has increased it's money over the past few years."
If you mean that the amount of taxes that has been paid into the system has increased then you would be correct because there are more workers than ever before paying into the system who are paying a higher percentage of their income (6.2% + 6.2% paid by the employer). The problem is that the ratio of workers paying into SSI versus the number of retirees drawing benefits continues to get smaller. Presently it's about 3 workers per retiree. In something like 15 - 20 years it'll be 2 to 1.
Nothing you wrote negates what I wrote originally--actually your points confirm what I wrote. In order for the system to stay 'solvent', either payroll taxes will have to be increased, benefits will have to decrease or a combination of both. The next time that happens, those paying into the system will be getting a negative return on their money. I don't know about you but I don't think the public will support a system that gives them back less than there put into SSI. At that point the system will lose public support.
You are also incorrect on your last point. Employee productivity has nothing to do with the solvency of SSI. SSI requires a certain number of workers paying into the system to pay current benefits. As I already stated, the ratio of workers to retirees continues to get smaller. Productivity has nothing to with the amount of money paid into the system. It's dependent on the number of workers.
You didn't answer my previous question to you but I'll ask another one and maybe you can answer both on your next post.
Since you are a teacher, do you pay into SSI? The reason I ask is because my mother was a public librarian who never paid into SSI. They had their own retirement program. Not sure if that's true for all government workers.
Nanny nanny nanny
November 25, 2007 - 03:00 ET by UnsaneMy IRA will be exposed to the mercies of the stock market over a total ofclose to 40 years. Over that time, historically, the stock market is a winner.
The only things that can kill a stock market are 1) you getting in power or 2) an "October Revolution. Wait. Aren't 1 and 2 the same thing?
Perhaps, Professor Guilt, you may want to go down to Galveston County and talk to some of those fortunate to be exempted from the Social Security system who provided for their own retirements instead. But then, as your entire rant above indicates, you simply cannot function without a government nanny holding your hand the entire time. I suppose you even need a nanny to tell you to inhale and exhale...
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Soc Sec itself is rape and
November 25, 2007 - 11:31 ET by GregESoc Sec itself is rape and pillage.
I don't know about rape and
November 26, 2007 - 23:43 ET by MikeBI don't know about rape and pillage, but it is a huge Ponzi scheme. It is also a violation of the 10th amendment.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
I stopped reading your post
November 24, 2007 - 14:13 ET by Free ThinkerI stopped reading your post Prof when you said "war crimes." Don't you know you lose all credibility in an argument when you argue something as absurd as that. There are no war crimes except in the feeble minds of the fringe left. You really do suffer from bds or have no clue about geopolitics and the war we are currently fighting. You've really embarrassed yourself here. Oh yeah, remember something please, we are the good guys here. Please be proud of this country and realize that it is only because of the sacrifice of our troops that you can mutter this nonsense and do so freely with no consequences.
FT, please don't compare Bush to the 'country"
November 24, 2007 - 14:26 ET by professor truthBush has destroyed the "country" whether you see it or not, you choose to be wilfully ignorant. Although rightwingers seem to think that only they represent the flag, God and country this is empty jingoism designed to produce a totalitarian thinking in the country. Is it patriotic to take US jobs and ship them out of the country? Is it patriotic to have policies which INCREASE our foreign oil dependence, forcing us to fight aggressive, criminal wars? If someone attacked the US and 'liberated ' us from the Bush junta(Blackwater is a private mercenary army which murders civilians with impunity and is a bigtime Bush backer), would they be guilty of war crimes if a million civilian deaths occurred as a result. Simple questions? Your blind allegiance to Bush has blinded you to his numerous crimes, the biggest of which was an unecessary,, aggressive war. That's called a war crime, unless you want to say that Hitler didn't commit war crimes with his aggressive invasions?
blah, blah, blah. You are
November 24, 2007 - 14:40 ET by Free Thinkerblah, blah, blah. You are a cartoon of fringe left talking points. It has to really burn you inside that you will be on the wrong side of history.
FT, lay off the crack pipe
November 24, 2007 - 15:15 ET by professor truthit's harmful to your critical thinking. I'm on the WRONG side of histroy is based on exactly what ? Most people think Bush is a disaster, I wouldn't call 60% of Americans the "fringe " left. What has Bush personally done for you? Killed 15 thousand soldiers with 30 thousand maimed soldiers? But, we are 'winning'? What the hell does that mean? Do you honestly think that a victory is possible? So all those sunni and shia Muslims will suddenly welcome us with flowrs even though thhe great majority of them wants us out. Why don't you present a single, cogent explanation for why spending over a TRILLION dollars at the expense of failing domestic needs and killing a million civilians(if you have a study that refutes this, please show me) is a victory. The surge is working? And one year from now, you KNOW what's going to be happening in Iraq??
Rightwingers have lots of bluster and hubris but little knowledge regarding foreign policy and no knowledge of the cultures that we are dealing with. If you're on the right side of history, I'm really happy to be on the wrong side, because I don't think fascism is a good thing for anyone other than war pig profiteers and multinational corporate cronies who feed off the carcasses of destroyed societies. Go read FIASCO and see how incompetent the war and post war actions were. It's all there in Thomas Ricks' book.
Do you honestly think that
November 24, 2007 - 15:25 ET by Free ThinkerDo you honestly think that a victory is possible?
YES. That is the difference between me and losers like you. I am glad the future of this country is not in the hands of people like you who are so willing to surrender and have no idea of the consequences. Please thank a soldier for not having your attitude. God bless America!
professor truth
November 24, 2007 - 15:29 ET by shawn228PT, I have caught tons of flack for saying invading Iraq was not worth the price that we paid. At the same time I do not see what good it does to point fingers on who's wrong. We need to support our troops. I was skeptical of the surge at the beginning, but even the msm are saying the surge is working
So it wasn't a slip. You've
November 25, 2007 - 11:33 ET by GregESo it wasn't a slip. You've used the 15,000 dead soldiers line a couple times now. Can you please post a link showing where you got that 15,000 number?
Leftist vomit
November 25, 2007 - 17:02 ET by UnsaneYou lecture us on critical thinking, but you have shown us quite clearly you cannot draw breath without realclimate.org, Michael Moore, or Thomas Ricks. Contradictions collapse.
Additionally, you vomit propaganda on the screen at a frantic rate. (As for "war pig profiteers", you just have a passionate, extreme hatred for anyone who dares make ANY profit for any reason. As I have pointed out, the B-29s and B-17s that won over REAL tyranny were not built gratis. So, all of that being said, if you could fill the boardroom of Lockheed-Martin with nerve agent during a meeting and safely watch the results, or could stand on the throat of Boeing's CEO for 10 minutes...how intense, how powerful, will your orgasm be?)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Free Thinker, In my view
November 24, 2007 - 15:36 ET by JasonCFree Thinker,
In my view you lose your credibility when you say things like "We are the good guys." Not that we are in fact the bad guys, but because you posit this absurdly simplistic, Hollywood-action-flick view of absolute good vs. absolute evil; a view which tumbles like a house of cards when put into practice in the real world.
This isn't a GI Joe cartoon where our enemies are twirling their mustaches, talking about how wonderful it is to be evil. They too, believe it or not, think they're the good guys.
There is no good and evil, only vested interests and opportunism.
And if you respond with a laundry list of insurgent/al-Quaeda atrocities as proof of their inherent evil, I can only assume you've missed my point. Also, please don't misconstrue this post as being in defense of "Professor Truth".
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Jason, you make an excellent point
November 24, 2007 - 15:39 ET by professor truthand it would serve all to consider the fact that all of us operate for our best interests. It doesn't bother me in the least that you disagree with me either. Let the most rational argument win should be the only criteria, and I think you make a good one.
consistantcy profff and Jason C
November 24, 2007 - 17:47 ET by botgi will expect based on this stance no further posting on the evil Bush or the evils of Bush
PS: since i do affirm good and evil the resriction only apllies to you (nice how you paint yourself into the corner)
Yes, you are even more annoying than Blonde. the EYE
Botg...deal. You will not
November 24, 2007 - 18:33 ET by JasonCBotg...deal. You will not find me referring to Bush et al. as evil. I disagree with the majority of his policy decisions and find his personal demeanor intensely irritating. But no, not evil.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
Jason, ProfT, Jer, Shawn, Bal...
November 24, 2007 - 18:50 ET by MrShyBush is not only one of the greatest presidents in the illustrious history of American presidents, but he's also a great man.
George W. Bush
Great President. Great Leader. Great man.
"MY end justifies THAT mean." - Shakespeare (not really)
Thanks, MrShy. Do you
November 24, 2007 - 19:02 ET by JerThanks, MrShy. Do you have any further announcements to make, or may I go now?
Jer
Jer
November 24, 2007 - 19:10 ET by MrShyYou may go.
And take the Nutty Professor and his "truth serum" with you.
"MY end justifies THAT mean." - Shakespeare (not really)
I think the professor may
November 24, 2007 - 19:19 ET by JerI think the professor may need to administer a few more doses. You guys are stubborn.
Jer
Jason, you make an excellent point
November 24, 2007 - 15:39 ET by professor truthand it would serve all to consider the fact that all of us operate for our best interests. It doesn't bother me in the least that you disagree with me either. Let the most rational argument win should be the only criteria, and I think you make a good one.
No offense but not
November 24, 2007 - 15:44 ET by Free ThinkerNo offense but not recognizing we are the good guys in this war on terror is just plain stupid. How do you assert moral equivilance to terrorists? That is folly and dangerous. I hope your post was sarcasm.
There is no good and
November 24, 2007 - 16:47 ET by Gary P JacksonThere is no good and evil?!? Are you serious?
The history of the World is filled with the stuggle of good against evil! Now certainly some conflicts are merely two groups who have a different set of self interests. But if Hitler, or Saddam, or Al Qaeda weren't/aren't evil, then what is?
History has shown what trying to negotiate with evil will get you, so when confronted with evil, there is only one course of action, and that is to destroy it.
Maybe instead of reading comic books, you should try a history book or two.
I think that in the real
November 24, 2007 - 18:40 ET by JasonCI think that in the real world, good and evil function, at best, as abstract concepts; basic guides of behavior.
Who's reading comic books? Those are, from what little I know of them, a bastion of the Good v. Evil binary that you find so comforting.
I'm not suggesting we 'negotiate' with the 'terrorists'. Where did I even suggest such a thing? You're just projecting right-wing distortions of left-wing ideology onto me, and I resent it. By all means, go destroy the evil. Really, that sounds like a great idea. Let me know how it goes, won't you?
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
JasonC
November 24, 2007 - 19:21 ET by MrShy"By all means, go destroy the evil. Really, that sounds like a great idea. Let me know how it goes, won't you?"
JC, that's presicely the point of this site. We ARE letting you and the many over-fed-by-MSM'ers out there know how it's really going (or at leaast we are constantly trying.) Evil IS being destroyed as we speak... not "insurgents", not "freedom fighters".
And "sounds like a great idea" ?? Um, you mean, that's the only logical/rational idea, right? What else should we do with evil?
"MY end justifies THAT mean." - Shakespeare (not really)
You're letting those
November 24, 2007 - 20:34 ET by JasonCYou're letting those overfed by the MsM know what's "really going on"? That has got to be the funniest unintentional bit of humor I've ever seen on this site. Like us lemmings all just let ourselves be indocrinated until the chosen few who read Newsbusters, and are under the paranoid impression that the MsM is little more than a left-wing cabal, come along and tell us "the truth"? Give me a break. Most of you are waaaay more right-wing than the MsM is left, first of all.
My point about Good v. Evil stands. If you want to boil down all world conflicts to that mutually exclusive compartmentalization, I'm not gonna try to stop you, but I think it's absurd and simplistic and a delusional way to go through life. Why not "insurgents" or "freedom fighters", exactly? Because in order for your ideology to function properly, they must be categorized as evil?
Don't get me wrong, I think they, and Nazis, and even Saddam (with a little help from Reagan and Rumsfeld) meet most people's private definition of evil. But if people keep thinking in those terms, I submit that nothing will ever get done. Because a few billion people in this world see what you call evil and think it's not evil at all. How do you deal with that?
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
JasonC...
November 24, 2007 - 22:32 ET by MrShyYou completely tripped-up on yourself in that last paragraph, and basically talked in one big circle. Now I really don't know where you stand on this good-evil thing. But, aaah, that's a familiar trait with your group of idealogues. Firstly:
"Don't get me wrong, I think they, and Nazis, and even Saddam (with a
little help from Reagan and Rumsfeld) meet most people's private
definition of evil."
As you went straight into this lecture of me being so "right-winged" and categorizing good and evil, you then say "don't get me wrong..." on certain people falling correctly into this category. Who else do you think I've been referring to as evil?? No one else! The exact same people/groups -- the Saddams, the Nazi's, the Al-Quada/Islamofascists (I'm assuming you have that on your list as well, or I hope you do) -- are on both of our lists.
That one has me chuckling, really. But then you end with:
"Because a few billion people in this world see what you call evil and think it's not evil at all. How do you deal with that?"
A few billion would be, oh say, 3 billion... oui? So now you're saying a majority of the world's population do NOT see the evil in these people (the one's noted above... which, again, you and I agree on) that I see, after two sentences earlier adding that those same people "meet MOST people's private definition of evil".
So, a majority of the world sees what you and I see -- AND -- does NOT see what you and I see. My head is hurting now.
- - - - - - - -
WAIT.... as I'm writing, I just caught your clever little word..... "private" !!! Aaaaah, sneaky Jason, so it's because I'm public with what my views of evil are, that this is what makes me... the..... war-mongering right-winger??
Okey dokey.
"MY end justifies THAT mean." - Shakespeare (not really)
My little left wing buddy,
November 24, 2007 - 22:37 ET by Gary P JacksonMy little left wing buddy, do you really think if we "keep thinking in those terms" (good and evil) we will never be at peace? That if we suddenly stop thinking that way, this truly will be heaven on earth?
Rather simplistic thinking at best. And it has been tried many times before. I could school you about Neville Chamberlain during WWII or any other leader who signed non-agression pacts with Hitler, all of them proclaiming "peace in our time". If they were still alive, you might ask them how they felt that worked out for them!
And just ignoring evil doesn't work well either. Bill Clinton regularly ignored the terrorist threats. That got the WTC bombed in '93 and completely destroyed in 2001, with tons of bombings against our people in between. So it's obvious how well that strategy worked out.
All of us want of peaceful world. A world where there is no fighting and no killing. Leftwingers have taken capitulation and looking the other way to a high art form, and yet here we are.
Ronald Reagan had the right formula of peace through strength. Reagan brought down the world's only other super power without firing a shot. He simply out spent them to a point of collapse. In the end, they were forced to sue for peaceful relations.
That is the most successful model for having a safe world. It's the same idea behind gun ownership and training. The local crook is less likely to fool with you if he thinks you might just fight back. Which is why states with pro gun stances have fewer violent crimes.
But here is my real pick with liberals, they fancy themselves "citizens of the world", and above it all. This is a very dangerous notion. It leads people to say stupid things like: "A few billion people in this world see what you call evil and think it's not evil at all. How do you deal with that?"
This is America, and as an American, you should care about your country above all others. After all, America is where you live, it's where you work. America is the country that gives you all of your opportunities. Opportunities that few nations in the world would allow. Assigning moral equivalencies to evil nations is just as bad as cheating on your wife. If you don't like your wife anymore, you are allowed to divorce her and leave. If this country sucks so bad (to you) you again, are free (and even encouraged) to leave.
You also shouldn't care about what other countries think about us. Especially to the point of injuring America. I have some hard truth for you: As a person, no matter how great you are, no matter what you accomplish, there will people that do not like you, and there will be some that will flat out hate you. The key is to always do your best for yourself, and your family. The same applies to our Nation. The peoples of some nations hate us, simply because. Some are jealous of our success. As a Nation, we can't let making all of the peoples of the world love us, become our foreign agenda. First and formost, we have to do what is right for America. We also have an obligation not to hurt our friends, but when push comes to shove, America comes first, or should!
And if a "few billion people" don't see evil when it's standing in front of them, that's their problem, not ours. Because sooner or later that evil will consume them, and destroy them.
Thank you Gary
November 24, 2007 - 23:00 ET by MrS