Wiki Wars and Mainstream Conservatism

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You may not be aware of it but Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia, is a virtual war zone, one of which most conservatives are blissfully unaware. Over at the New Republic, Eve Fairbanks explores this in the presidential campaign where supporters and critics of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton battle daily over their entries:

Back when we got basic information from encyclopedias instead of Wikipedia, politicians were at the mercy of the encyclopedia-writers' particular biases. Take the 1911 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Apparently controlled by smug British nationalists, it described the important Irish leader Charles Stewart Parnell as "not over-scrupulous," "repellent," "powerful for evil," and, owing to the "mental affliction of his ancestors," probably possessing a "mental equilibrium [that] was not always stable."

Wikipedia was supposed to fix this problem. Anyone can add, delete, or massage language in its online articles, and--boom!--refresh the page to see their changes appear instantly. These volunteer contributors ("editors," in Wikipedia lingo) discuss their changes on an article's associated "talk page," and eventually (or so the theory goes) merge their different perspectives on various subjects into something truly neutral. But, after you see what happens when two warring Democratic candidates are thrown to the mercy of the Wikipedians, you kind of yearn for the 1911 Britannica.

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How does a Wikipedia page get controlled exactly? Fairbanks looks at how one or two individuals can completely skew a page provided they devote enough time to it:

The battles over Hillary's and Obama's pages have been so heated because the stakes are so high. The candidates' Wikipedia pages are their second Google hits, right after their official campaign portals. And, with Clinton and Obama locked in a tight race, even the simplest adjectives seem to become powerful weapons. (By contrast, much of the editing on John McCain's page these days involves correcting formatting mistakes.) With emotions running high (at this point, is it really possible for anyone not to be "POV" on Clinton or Obama?), you would think that Wikipedia's entries on the candidates--which, after all, anyone can edit--would have long ago devolved, as the race itself pretty much has, into total chaos. But, for all the bickering, this hasn't quite happened--thanks, in part, to a 53-year-old software developer from central New Jersey named Jonathan Schilling.
Schilling is the man who protects Hillary's online self from the public's hatred. He estimates that he spends up to 15 hours per week editing Wikipedia under the name "Wasted Time R"--much of it, these days, standing watch over Hillary's page. Hardly a news event or argument over her situation goes by without Wasted Time R's input: He edited her page 77 times in the last month, mostly pruning away changes he viewed as inappropriate, such as a rant about Geraldine Ferraro or a stealthy effort to diminish Hillary's role in improving the State Children's Health Insurance Program. The fact that Schilling is married to a librarian who, he laments, "never recommends anybody use Wikipedia" (no one, no one, hates Wikipedia as much as librarians) does not diminish his vigilance. "You constantly have to police [the page]," he says, recalling the way Rudy Giuliani's Wikipedia article declined in quality after its protectors lost interest. "Otherwise, it diverts into a state of nature."

She also looks at an Obama supporter who does the same thing, noting, however, that Obama fans are far more active in protecting their candidate's entry from negative remarks. Very interesting article and higly worth reading. (Here's the link.)

Since Fairbanks works for the liberal New Republic, you can't begrudge her exclusive focus on the Democrats. It makes you wonder, though, what about the Republicans? I don't have the time to fully delve into this right now (see Dave Pierre's earlier NB post on bias at Wikipedia for a comprehensive look or this one by me on the experience of a conservative Keith Olbermann critic at Wikipedia) but suffice it to say, there is a very real problem with left-wingers bending Wikipedia to suit their agenda.

What to do about this problem, though? That's a topic William Beutler explored yesterday over at Blog, P.I.:

Conservatives grouse that the writers and editors at the national magazines lean left, and there is definitely some truth to that. Not to a man and woman, and this does not mean their reporting follows the Democratic Party line, but it does have consequences on which stories are covered and how they are covered. But I think the lessons learned are wrong, or at best incomplete.

The reaction is usually to set up an alternative forum which is defined as being explicitly conservative. The problem is that these alternative organizations often operate inside a bubble which their “liberal” counterparts do not. This can be the case beyond journalism as well. On the web we can see this very clearly: The non-partisan but in some ways “liberal” Wikipedia has been answered by the conservative-minded, low-quality Conservapedia. [...]

The liberal tilt of mainstream newspapers and magazines certainly has something to do with the professional networks within which editors find writers for their stories. But it also has something to do with conservative journalists rarely operating outside their zone of comfort. And especially in magazine articles, they tend to add commentary to existing stories rather than going out and finding new ones.

This is how it works: Liberals get reporting jobs. Conservatives get opinion columns. Look at the Newsweek masthead, liberal Jonathan Alter does indeed have an opinion column, but his full title is Senior Editor and Columnist. George Will is just Columnist. The columnist can make overt arguments the way a reporter cannot, but the columnist’s words are also unmistakably opinions. But decisions that go into how a story is reported are the product of a reporters’ opinions, too. These biases are not always obvious.

I'm inclined to agree with Beutler's analysis here. Compared to the left, the right has remarkably less interest in "objectivity." This is unfortunate because the self-described objective news sources are the ones that dominate our media age and will continue to do so. Instead of tuning out the discussion and founding our own little right-wing ghettos, conservatives should be unafraid to become mainstream--to learn to appeal to the politically inchoate, ignorant, and unaligned in addition to the right-leaning public.

This does not mean abandoning conservative principles or "selling out." What it does mean is to stop thinking we're above getting into the trenches which in today's media environment means getting into journalism, Wikipedia, YouTube, and other organs of mainstream pop culture. How do you do that? By taking time to engage in political activism: call your local media outlets when you spot bias or inaccuracies, "adopt" a MSM web site and make your voice heard there, and learn how to recalibrate what you're saying to the sensibilities of the non-political.

Why is all of this important? Because politics is really a two-front war fought by three separate classes. The most commonly followed front is the political front, fought by the political class which seeks to construct, support, and execute policies preferred by their respective sides. The right has done well at building up itself on the political front. We have numerous institutions and political groups designed to promote and lobby for conservative policies. This is the smallest class but too often it thinks it is the most important. In truth it's not.

The second front is the mainstream front and it's here that the right is in dire need of a strategic recalibration. Called the "popular front" in Marxist literature, the mainstream front is the where the wars are fought. This is a truth the right has seemingly lost sight of as its become occupied with the minutiae of day-to-day politics. Politics is not won or lost by senatorial procedure debates or earmarks. It's won or lost by who is better able to shape the metanarrative. Ever since its existence, the left has been superior at this. This superior grasp of the larger fight is why conservatives are always complaining about how America is ever-drifting toward socialism.

The war for the political metanarrative is essentially fought by two different groups, both of which the the right has not paid sufficient attention to. Most conservative elites have not effectively taken advantage of our natural core constituency other than to raise money from it. That is a huge mistake.

There is a large body of people out there who are willing and eager to help advance the cause of conservative libertarianism but because would-be activists (especially on the right) lead very busy lives, they need assistance from the political class to know what to do and how to do it. The right needs to spend the time and money necessary to cultivate this group. So far it hasn't.

The other group fighting in the metanarrative war is the partially aligned. As badly as the right has done at cultivating its activists, it's done even worse at cultivating this group: journalists, academics, libertarians, and cultural elites. Some of these people are "team players" for one side or the other but most are not. They may have affinities but most are more likely to oppose something "bad" than support something "good." The right needs to do better at developing this group, understanding it, and tailoring its message to it. This is a critical step because the partially aligned are the gatekeepers of culture. Their influence is tremendous on people who are on the fence ideologically or who are politically inchoate.

Fighting and winning the metanarrative war is not an impossible task. It can be done and was starting to get done when Ronald Reagan was in power. Here's hoping the right gets its act together and resumes this critical task.

—Matthew Sheffield is the creator of NewsBusters and its Executive Editor.


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Matt,

I'm a bit unclear as to your point:

What it does mean is to stop thinking we're above getting into the trenches which in today's media environment means getting into journalism, Wikipedia, YouTube, and other organs of mainstream pop culture. 

Do you mean we get down & dirty with them, on their own level?  Because the level I see on Wiki, YouTube, etc. is a level to which I'd not be comfortable. 

Or is it your contention that we continue to take the "high road" (fat lot of good that's done, BTW).

Surely there is some better way to go...but I'm just not quite seeing it here.

Suggestions?

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

Blonde,

I think Matt is saying that conservatives need to be willing to go where the mainstream is. They have to be willing to work at newsweek, cbs, cnn, etc... while being themselves. Conservatives have a hard time believing they will be taken seriously at these media outlets, and sometimes seem to go along to get along (hmm, who does that remind you of ?). Also, most of us seem to congregate together at sites like this, instead of getting out there where most people are at, discussing the news of the day despite the petty remarks that we are likely to hear or read. At Newsbusters, we are preaching to the choir. It's the sinners outside that need to hear what we have to say.

Another way of putting it is Conservatives need a voice in the reporting and research side of the news. They need to decide which stories they will seek and how they are reported. Too many Conservatives are happy to just opine, and often they are speaking to a narrow audience that already agrees with them, rather than getting new information to the masses who may only get their news from over the air networks.

Some times the war needs to

Some times the war needs to be fought in foreign fields-- we can't just toss hot lead from the safety of our fortresses. I suppose I view it as moving in to shake things up a bit. But just because we we're moving to their "medium" doesn't mean we've moved to their level. It should rather mean that we're standing up to the behemoth of liberal arrogance.

Websites like newsbusters.org are great but it's some times like were standing on a hill, shouting our message but there's no one within earshot to hear. Why not go where people will hear?

(Excuse all the analogies-- I just read a couple of philosophy articles... ugh.)

Restless & AJ

OK.  I see your point(s).

I do, on a daily basis, try to engage the (vast majority) of liberal stupidity I encounter.

It's a hard road to travel though.  For the most part, I engage people who are several levels beneath me, professionally.  So, I'm somewhat subject to "harrassment" rules.  It's difficult.

Having said that, though, when I encounter my liberal "peers", I feel no compunction about nailing  their stupidity to the wall.  Just reading what I typed, however, I realize that  is not such a great approach.  Perhaps I should treat my "peer" liberals in the exact same way I'd treat one of my children (read, employees). 

Okay....I'll try it tomorrow, and the next day....and get back to you all.  It should be interesting.

Not that I'm expecting any results, mind you.  Liberal fools are liberal fools.  I'd just like for them to do (and understand) their own tax returns.  That would be an excellent start, don't you think? 

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

I can't go there re the tax

I can't go there re the tax returns. We have a girl that does ours. I could do them, but I am not only a good conservative, I'm a lazy one too (at least when it comes to tax forms). :)

Ha! That's Good

I do my own, though.

Particularly after I found out how much the accountant charged for it.

It takes about an hour (I have good records), even with a long form....for which I used to get charged several hundred bucks. 

The truth of the matter is, though, that people are scared to death of the IRS....it's domestic terror, pure and simple.  Just think what it would be like if  Hillary were Pres.  Yikes! 

Okay, I'm going to stop, now.

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

I should say that there are

I should say that there are just some liberals that you can't talk to. I've met people (liberals) who, as soon as they know they've been disproven, will immediately stick their fingers in their ears* and start shouting "nah, nah, nah-- I can't hear you!! Mmmm-- nah, nah, nah-nah, nah!!!!". Those people you can only pray for and hope reality gives them a swift kick in the butt.

* Well, not literally, but it wouldn't startle me to see a Liberal do that.

I like that thought

talk to them like they're children - after all - they want everything handed to them, and do things without consequence.

Example: when people ocmplain about "tax breaks for the rich", I agree with them, at first, then ask them, how much of that "tax" money made into THEIR hands, or how much has their taxes gone down? "Top executives make too much money" - if everyone of them got zero tomorrow, how much more would you get? I then point out that they seem to be envious, and ask if they could do that person's job? Just getting them to think is kinda fun.

There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad V

a very nice piece matthew.

a very nice piece matthew. i'm impressed. i especially like the line you wrote:

   'I'm inclined to agree with Beutler's analysis here. Compared to the left, the right has remarkably less interest in "objectivity."'

because i don't swallow everything here hook, line and sinker, most claim i am a liberal.

regardless of what rush says, there are real moderates in this country. i can see arguments from both sides. i, for one, would like to see more 'objectivity' from conservatives. talk to me in logical terms and backup what you say without the namecalling. that is all i ask, yet that makes me a liberal on this site.

good article, and i'm looking forward to more.

crshedd

Seriously, what are you doing hanging around this site?  You post things, just like the rest of the trolls...just for a reaction.  

What's up with that?

Are you a "real" moderate?  Dude, conservatives don't do "objective".  We have our point of view, we don't care about your "moderatisivm".  What do you not understand about that?

You can yack all night long....we have our values, and our views....and all of your touchy, feely crying isn't going to move us off our beliefs one iota.

So again, what is it you don't get?  I'm seriously curious.   

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

Crshedd a moderate? HA!

Blonde, bear in mind that crshedd is a flaming Leftist who is too ashamed to admit it. 

He should be thankful the search function sucks, or else I'd quote from him, verbatim, where he gushes about how he feels every American "deserves" quality health care.  No doubt, the government should pamper everyone with this goodie just for being born. 

 Among other things, he believes he has the unalienable right to steal from producers such as Lee Raymond because it is simply not right, in his happy little world, that he made $400 million from ExxonMobil (crshedd obviously does not understand what my tagline says). 

Basically he is a whiny Socialist who cannot imagine life without living underneath the skirt of a government Nanny. 

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

hmmm.

I disagree. I believe conservatives are far more objective than their liberal counterparts.  Liberals can be identified by how many time they re-define the person or item in question to make it/them fit the current  situation.  Ie. redefine marriage to make it fit their gay ideas and the wikipedia Hill-Obama issue.  With very few exceptions conversatives do not do that. 

Look for gutter talk and you'll find liberals.

 

David... Bingo! "Never

David...

Bingo!

"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill

Blonde

please see the revised version of my piece. I hope that explains what I am trying to get at.

Gotta love those trolls

Gotta love those trolls that happen to not read any proof we provide, stating "please back up you illogical arguments without the name calling" and other bogus things like that. They really make me laugh with their sheer hypocritical ignorance. :)

The Rocky Mountain Collegian: Illustrating Idiocy

Perhaps one place to start

Would be for conservatives to accept the fact that -- for all its admitted faults -- Wikipedia is capable of excellence. I've never understood the level of senseless anger at a mere tool that can be misused like just about every other halfway useful tool in humanity's toolkit, when the energy spent on anger might be used to fix it instead. If an endorsement helps, our CIA not only frequently-edits the thing, but now even uses an internal version for itself.
JMR

A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.

Sarc, you mean?

Don't blame Wikipedia but place the blame on the abusers.

Kind of like, don't blame the internet but blame the students and teachers that don't respect plagerism rules.

I can see where Wikipedia would get blamed for some things

But an earlier adoption of Wiki-style open-ness would sure prevent some problems. It was clueless, pointy haired Keeloq executives who relied on crappy key management & poor cryptography to "protect" their customers. Those customers may well include you even if you've never heard of Keeloq. (Still feel "safe" with that coded garage door opener guarding all your expensive stuff? Don't. It's not Jimmy Wales who did this to you, either, so the answer to this problem is NOT passing yet-another statist law.) Want to do some good? Sue the pointy-haired ones at Keeloq, rather than blaming Wikipedia for doing its job again by telling the truth. To me, this deliberate security cluelessness literally screams "class action lawsuit."
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

Wikipedia is total and utter Bullshit

It is impossible for Wikipedia to ever achieve "excellence" because ANYONE can edit it at will. That means a 5 year old can change what someone with a PhD edited. Ultimately this means whoever wants to spend the most amount of time editing it (with the administration's approval) will win. Admin approval is essential since they can silence you by banning your account or IP (even though there are easily ways aroung this) and can lock topics (yet still edit them) and thus declare victory for whoever they choose.

Anyone who remotely understands how Wikipedia works realizes it is an unreliable propaganda information source used only by fools as a "real" source and the rest of us as a jumping off point.

You cannot fix something broken by design - it is an impossibility.

The Faith-Based Encyclopedia (Robert McHenry, Former Editor in Chief, the Encyclopedia Britannica)

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

If it's "broken by design"

Why would an entire US intelligence agency spend money on implementing it? It's not perfect, but I stand by all my words. Hell, the McDonalds menu history page alone proves my point extensively. The most expensive encyclopedias of my youth could not have done close to that job. It's a tool, folks. IMO the tool's not the problem.
JMR

A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.

Can 5 year olds edit the CIA Wiki?

Buying Wiki software which you can setup and restrict who edits it internally and having it wide open to any idiot with a computer are two different things.

You do know the difference between Wikipedia and Wiki Software and are aware that Wiki software can be setup with accounts and access can be limited to certain pages via these accounts? Thus you can allow only certain CIA staff who covers the Iraq War to edit the Iraq War page, this is a far cry from having code pink allowed to edit it.

Yes the design of the tool and it's implementation are the problem!

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

If they've got access

Your problem with the tool seems to be instead with the owner of the tool. Jimmy Wales runs the thing in a certain way that's not popular around here, but it's just a tool even if he occasionally uses it to stick conservatives in the eye. The conservative alternative using the same software is, as mentioned, a dead ghetto. Wales' strategy now of "allow anyone" has let the tool he made grow very quickly. In the future, he's likely to make changes that will increase accuracy, if my guess is right. Until then, I can tell complainers to go ask for all your money back.
JMR

A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.

You did not answer the question(s)

NO my problem is with a poorly designed biased website that anyone can edit at will being passed off as an "encyclopedia".

1. Can a 5-year old edit the CIA Wiki?

2. Can a 5-year old edit Wikipedia?

3. Is the current information based on whoever edited the page last?

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

See the subject line

For your answers. You just don't particularly like my answers, but believe me, I answered you first thing....
JMR

A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.

Please answer the questions

1. It is safe to say that 5-year olds do work for the CIA thus cannot edit their internal Wiki database.

Now please answer the other questions.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

No, it's not safe.

I've seen highly placed US government officials exercising dismal computer "security" practices. Their eventual exploiter is unlikely to be as young as 5, but exploits happen to government users all the time in the world of computers. I suggest reading the Reason article I linked. "Wikipedia had an error. Who knew?" is one of the funniest lines ever, especially in this somewhat hysterical context.
JMR

A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.

Libertarian Blindness to Technology

Oh so Jimbo is a libertarian no wonder you are tying to defend a technology you are incapable of defending.

We are not discussing computer security. Editing Wikipedia at will by anyone 24/7 worldwide has absolutely NO relation to hacking into the CIA and then editing their internal Wiki database of which the only comparison to Wikipedia is the Wiki software used. Please.

I suggest comprehending how Wikipedia works and understand why it can NEVER be considered reliable or accurate EVER.

The Faith-Based Encyclopedia (Robert McHenry, Former Editor in Chief, the Encyclopedia Britannica)

I am sorry to break it to you but anarchy never works!

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

rather egalitarian, eh?

1. Read the article - not accessible to the public. CIA could have used any of a range of CMS systems,

2. Yeah, possibly.

But to make it a bit less absurd, how about a 7th grader fixing an error? Say an author birth date. Or adding a death date just after it was in the papers? Or, god forbid, writing an article about game cheats? 

Or a grad student or a working professional updating an article in their field of expertise?

Yes, I've edited some pieces there. Most have 'stuck', for up to three years now. My guess is the orig authors and later editors have seen them and approved.

3. Only the piece that was changed - easy enough to check the revision history. Easy enough to check the source. Or even the history of the editor in most cases.

But, following your logic, we shouldn't accept anything  written here either. No way to verify  expertise in the topic, for example. Harder to verify the quality of  sources if the reader is not expert in the topic. In Wikipedia, resources of dubious quality get called on. Often pretty quickly.

There are other articles about Wikipedia, rather than rely on a very likely biased article written by an ex-editor of EB, perhaps Wikipedia:A Literature Review  would be a more reasonable start (Word .doc file)

Wikipedia Delusions

Giles, answer these questions Yes or No:

1. Can a 5-year old edit Wikipedia?

2. Is the current information on Wikipedia based on whoever edited the page last?

Your irrelevant commentary of having made an edit and having it "stuck" to one of the million's of pages is idiotic beyond belief. What makes the original authors, you or any of the "editors" qualified to be an authority on the subject? What makes what is on Wikipedia factually true?

You definitely should not accept anything written here that is not sourced which is why that is all I do!

In Wikipedia it is impossible to verify ANYONE's "expertise". Your naive notion of resources of "dubious quality" getting called on is so typical of those who have no concept of how Wikipedia works. Majority and last editing rules with the help of the Wiki Admins. Any source can be removed if enough people, a Wiki Admin or someone with enough time on their hands wants it gone and "decide" it is of "debious quality".

Yes there are other articles on Wikipedia:

A false Wikipedia 'biography' (USA Today)
A History Department Bans Citing Wikipedia as a Research Source (The New York Times)
Insider Editing at Wikipedia (The New York Times)
The Wikification of Knowledge (John C. Dvorak, PC Mag)
Who's responsible for Wikipedia? (The Register)
Wikipedia "broken beyond repair", co-founder says (The Inquirer)
Wikipedia founder admits to serious quality problems (The Register)
Wikipedia: magic, monkeys and typewriters (The Register)

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Perhaps a closer read is necessary

Already answered.

You stated I said 'an edit' when the quote would really be "...some pieces there. Most have 'stuck', for up to three years now."

"...that is not sourced which is why that is all I do.

While sourcing is the first thing, one also needs to do content analysis, else it can be GIGO.

 

"In Wikipedia it is impossible to verify ANYONE's "expertise"..."

As here, also.

"...so typical of those who have no concept of how Wikipedia works."

I think you're missing the Discussion page, possibly the History page, and probably the Watch feature.

 

Delusions of how Wikipedia works

1. Can a 5-year old edit Wikipedia?

Answer - Yes

2. Is the current information on Wikipedia based on whoever edited the page last?

Answer - Yes

Thus the accuracy of wikipedia is impossible to determine and is controlled by whoever has edited a page last.

The Discussions page can be edit too! That is always fun having someone edit what you just said! The History page on most articles can go on for hundreds or thousands of edits. You would need to devote a lifetime to checking the history of a major article. The watch feature simply allows whoever wants to control the content of the article an easy way to do so. Thus the high school dropout who thinks he knows how something about (random subject) can make sure all his incorrect information stays on the page.

Getting accurate information into Wikipedia is the equivalent of trying to educate everyone who has an internet connection on the planet up to your level of knowledge on the subject and then for the rest of your life arguing with everyone you have not yet educated.

In Wikipedia one expert with a PhD can be "corrected" by masses of morons and there is nothing you can do about it.

Only fools think otherwise.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

The Discussions page can be edit (sic) too!

You know, in a civil society most people abide by the rules. Of course there are always going to be little shits leaving behind their off-spring

Wikipedia is a robust community. Simple rules. "As there are many more editors intent upon good quality articles than
any other kind, articles that are poorly edited are usually corrected
promptly
." 

And you are over-generalizing to create an argument with the 'latest edit' trashing  the whole article. Just as the absurd '5 year old' argument. 

 

"trying to educate everyone who has an internet connection on the planet"  would hold true here also, of course.

 

 

Cry, Cry and Cry some more Giles

Fact = it is easy for anyone who knows what they are doing to destroy the integrity of any article on Wikipedia (not that they need the help), this is by design (or lack of).

Live in your fantasy of delusions Giles. Please pretend there are all these "good" editors who know everything and fix everything correctly. I mean there are obviously more "good" Wikipedia editors then there are Internet Users (1,319,872,109) and they all monitor ever change made to every article 24/7. What a UTOPIA!

Maybe if you post "poorly edited articles are fixed promptly" over and over it will make it magically become true!

You got me Giles, obviously the last person who edits a wikipedia article is not the most recent information you see on the page. It really goes through this special "good" editor filter who has a PhD on the topic and is all knowing and can make instantaneous corrections! You know so much more about Wikipedia then me I had no idea how it worked until you explained it!

Oh and yeah 5 year olds cannot edit Wikipedia because Wikipedia software is SOOOOOO advanced it can detect when a 5 year is editing a page and prevents them from screwing it up, amazing!

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

fart in a windstorm part 1

Let's just say that if you want to play with  cat litter deposits and they land on articles on my watch list, they'll be taken care of as they deserve. If, on the other hand, they are substantive, well cited and written clearly, they'll stay. It would seem to be a no brainer; your POV and proofs reach a wider audience or your hacking/spoofing/turd-laying shows your inner child.

Your sarcasm doesn't work so well when you don't read closely. A article that is modified, (minus the games you say you play, but can't show us and don't show up in any significant amount) with incorrect information is only incorrect for that piece of information, not the whole article. And is usually fixed fairly quickly. As opposed to errors in print. Easy enough to check when changes were made and what the change was.  And the comment was about good editors v bad editors. You know, the kind you say you and your friends are but are unable to prove.

False impressions

You are under the false impression that changes I am making are all bad or that the volume and frequency of my changes to the articles I choose are can be easily "watched". You are also under the false impression that every article is frequently and heavily watched. Also when changes are made that are sourced they are much less scrutinized.

Your delusion that everything is fixed quickly or at all only shows you naive and utter ignorance of Wikipedia.

You would think something would be easy to check except when the change was made 50 edits back. Subtle changes that look right done over time can make the whole article completely incorrect.

The Singer article is a perfect example of a bogus source (a conspiracy theorest) but left in because a source exists that no one checks.

Like I said pretend it does not happen and Wikipedia is really accurate, living in fantasy land may be good for you. 

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

fart in a windstorm part 5

"...false impression that changes I am making are all bad.." . We can read your previous comments about you and your friends' changes. 

"...bogus source (a conspiracy theorest)..."  Example? I thought you said you always cite......

Looking through the preference choices for watchlists might clear up some misconceptions.

"Also(sb Also,) when changes are made that are sourced they are much less scrutinized." Not really, the quality of the source is important. As is how quotes are selectively mined or explicated. It might be an invalid assumption in some cases, but  your HS teachers would have explained that. And some Middle School ones.

"..only shows you (sic) naive and utter ignorance of Wikipedia..." Assumptions and over generalizing tend to be weak forms of argument.

"..change was made 50 edits back." If it was an error, and you want to have a positive effect, fix it. It isn't a matter of watching the history, just close enough reading to discern the problem. Otherwise, perhaps it has withstood the test of time and what is percieved as an error isn't.

Source evaluation

Your blind faith in Wikipedia surprises me not at all.  You have demonstrated over and over again on this board that you simply do not critically think, and that you don't want to be bothered to do such a thing.   

An important part of critical thinking is the ability to evaluate sources of information.  You have shown time and time again here on NB how much lip service you pay to that simple concept (although sadly this is a pitfall some Rightists here are not immune to).

Ultimately, as I cannot evaluate Wikipedia as a source, I won't touch it with a ten-foot pole.  If I brought anything in from Wikipedia into any work I produce for an academic setting, I would be laughed right out of academia, and rightfully so.  I surely would with ANY student who brought in sources from there into his writing. 

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

5th grade research

And way up in the thread, you will notice that I said "Past the 5th grade, most research wouldn't use ANY encyclopedia
extensively
. Fine for a starting point to get a handle on basics, but
not necessarily even listed in the Works Cited page
." So it makes perfect sense that you'd be ".. laughed right out of academia..."   I make sure to note that in research guidelines and requirements for papers.

 

I think your "..you simply do not critically think.." has more to do with the disconnect conservatives have with thought that doesn't meet their own expected conclusions.

 

"...as I cannot evaluate Wikipedia as a source..." Evaluation is a part of critical thinking, so perhaps you misspoke here.

As well as in "..brought in sources from there into his writing .." The sources themselves are now suspect?

 

for Guilt Winterbourne

I think your "..you simply do not critically think.." has more to do with the disconnect conservatives have with thought that doesn't meet their own expected conclusions.  Considering that this sentence comes from a hardened Socialist (No sense in denying that considering your non-global warming posts) who won't read anything that doesn't fit his Socialist echo chamber, this has to be the most hilarious thing I have read. 

If you are using Wikipedia as a legitimate source of information, you have severe problems with the concept of critical thinking.  Especially in your case, for when you are faced with evidence or research that runs counter to your dogma, you go on a smear campaign, rather than face what is presented to you squarely.

Also, for one that seems to believe that it shouldn't be used beyond fifth grade (I believe it shouldn't be used at all, and I haven't, and won't, just by seeing how it is supposed to work), you seem to be defending it tooth and nail as a tool that adults can and should use.

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

'... who won't read

'... who won't read anything that doesn't fit his Socialist echo chamber, this has to be the most hilarious thing I have read. ..."

Which explains why I'm reading articles on this site? 

"...shouldn't be used beyond fifth grade..."  is a misreading. I said no encyclopedia should  be cited beyond the 5th grade. WP, EB, EA, NBK, WB, etc., read them for an overview, look at sources and Further Reading to further your own research, but base your writing on that further research.

I don't want to go all English teacher on you, but that middle para starts with one topic, goes into another one, and doesn't attempt to support either one with substantive detail. Also, there seems to be some confusion on who you are talking about - 'socialists' in general, or me in particular.  Some interesting ideas, but needs further development and clarity in writing. 

 


"What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the wish to find out, which is the exact opposite." - Bertrand Russell

 

Wikipedia is a failure used by morons

Giles you are naive and have no idea how Wikipedia works. I have found a clear coorelation between Global Warming alarmists and naive fools who think Wikipedia is an accurate, reliable source.

I have given you more then enough information to understand how easily it is to destroy a Wikipedia article.

Man you are SLOW and DENSE. In relation to sources - I was refering to how certain tactics used against Wikipedia allow content to be less scrutinized. Sourcing any change will greatly increase the chances of the change staying. Many times they are not even verified word for word only that the source exists. You can easily and intentionally input slight word changes, dates ect... that make the context completely wrong.

You are naive and ignorant on Wikipedia. You are also delusional and a fool to believe what you do but then again you have proven your computer illiteracy over and over.

If I am destroying an article why would I want to have a positive effect? My point was that if you make an incorrect change and then bury it so far back in the history the watch list becomes irrelevant. I have long ago given up on fixing something broken by design. Wikipedia can never be fixed so I enjoy misinforming the fools that rely on it and are dumb enough to believe it is accurate. I hope I did not burst you delusional bubble of a nonexistent utopia.

You wish to believe that everything is watched 24/7 by an expert on the article with a PhD to make corrections that are truthful or remotely accurate. Your cognitive dissonance is clear. To the contrary people with the academic credentials to make the corrections have long given up on arguing with people who do not know what they are talking about such as yourself. Wikipedia is a failure used by morons who cannot researh.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

A group which occasionally includes

Various "morons" of the NB masthead.
JMR

A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.

Wikipedia Sourcing Advice

To which I would HIGHLY recommend they never do so but simply use it as a jumping off point (if necessary) and link to the REAL source. If one does not exist from the Wikipedia article then don't trust the information and never quote from the Wikipedia article itself but the original source used.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Lots of contentions

"Sourcing any change will greatly increase the chances of the change
staying. Many times they are not even verified word for word only that
the source exists
."

This is at least the second time you've stated that with no supporting evidence. And didn't you say you always cited sources?

And from the beginning of this thread, I stated one shouldn't rely on any encyclopedia (I should have said encyclopic work ) so much of your diatribes and many of your insults are baseless.

 

"If I am destroying an article why would I want to have a positive effect?"  Well, first, you've been spouting off on your hacker 'skilz' yet back off in any proof. In a larger sense one could wonder why you feel it important enough to brag about it. And adding positive changes in your area of expertise would actually show your 'skilz' and qualifications. And possibly help someone move from fencesitter to your POV. Other than some smug satisfaction between you, your friends, and possibly a piece of the hacker and script kiddie communities, what benefit is there in trashing a site?

 

"My point was that if you make an incorrect change and then bury it so far back in the history the watch list becomes irrelevant." Which is invalid (your point, that is). Sure, a casual reader might miss it; but most users are a bit more critical than that and would verify the information before using it further. 

"Haxor Skilz" - get it right

I have already went over that I am not about to link to any changes I have made to Wikipedia, like I said pretend it cannot be done. My Haxor skilz are unnecessary to edit Wikipedia since a 5-year old can do it.

You can definitely rely on a GOOD encyclopedia like Britannica. It is the ones that are a joke like Wikipedia that you should not rely on.

I feel it is important enough to let people know how much of an unreliable joke Wikipedia is. There are many benefits of destroying Wikipedia articles including the sheer fun of seeing the nonsense repeated as the truth by the less educated.

A more critical reader would not rely on Wikipedia for anything. Which is why I do not use it as a source but rather a jumping off point.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

"Destroying articles"??? How are they restored post-vandalism?

I thought wiki could only be added to. . .

-PJ

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07

It's called 'backups',

It's called 'backups', periodic content snapshots stored in off-line media which can be used to restore the system in the event of disaster.

Each change

Every change is documented, so much more accurate than 'periodic content snapshots'.

Logged in users can have notifications sent when changes are made.

The history pages provide all users with means to seen when and what changes were made. Tracked by user (or IP address), history of which is also maintained.

 

"Destroying" Wikipedia Articles

Destroying as in keeping incorrect information on the front page for an extended period. If you know what you are doing this is relatively easy. Sure the correct information may exits somewhere in the history but the point is to burry it so far back that the amount of time to look through the history becomes impractical. Also don't confuse this with vandalism as the information is added in ways deliberately designed to look correct with "sources".

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

destroy=vandalism

" Sure the correct information may exits (sic) somewhere in the history but the point is to burry (sic) it"

But he can't show us any examples.....

Which renders the whole argument moot.

Your 'destroying' is basically vandalism - don't try to put a fine point on it - there isn't a difference.

continued flatulence

Examples? Nope...continued flatulence

"There are many benefits of destroying Wikipedia articles including the sheer fun of seeing the nonsense repeated as the truth by the less educated."

Examples? Nope...

'Which is why I do not use it as a source but rather a jumping off point."

Oddly, that was what I said at the beginning - when you were saying not to use it at all.

continued flatulence

GilesW= green house gas ,gas ! your're a gas in a wind storm.


Heres some coold news
for ya, SOOT

<gaia/love>SAVVVE The Whales N' Earth; conserve N' recycle !

IranianUranium<sleep>New/Infrastructure/repair?/ROFLMAO

 

The ir-Relevance of Wikipedia

Since Google biases their search to Wikipedia it always comes up high in the results and thus it is sometimes quicker to see if they have a link somewhere. Though usually they either don't or have biased links to push a certain POV. If you do click on it, using it as a jumping off point is all it is useful for and many times may stear you in the wrong dirrection wasting time.

continued computer illiteracy

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

"may stear you in the wrong dirrection"

"Since Google biases their search to Wikipedia it always comes up high in the results..."

As does Clusty (+ a Wiki tab), Yahoo, MSN, Dogpile, 

I don't think you've yet explained how you've determined their resources/cites are biased.

 

But then, you haven't been able to point to a 'destroyed' article either. Or show that articles are biased or don't provide a range of POV to accomodate all reliable sources.

It seems to boil down to 'information control' where it seems you'd rather follow an egalitarian view, complaining that your view is not shown exclusively, rather than work to help develop a democratic view where all POVs are given space.

(and can you find a liberal gleefully boasting about 'destroying' a Wikipedia article because they don't agree with the WP meme?)

 

speaking of tools

It wouldn't hurt to review basic Wikipedia policies and abide with them as you write or edit the pieces you find inaccurate or biased. If you look through the discussion pages, these are what ultimately allow or reject edits.

Verifiability: "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source..."

Neutral POV " representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources."

Reliable sources: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy"

Citing sources: "...attribution is required for "direct quotes
and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged." 

The 'librarians hate Wikipedia' comment is a bit off. Past the 5th grade, most research wouldn't use ANY encyclopedia extensively. Fine for a starting point to get a handle on basics, but not necessarily even listed in the Works Cited page.

There certainly was some controversy over its use, especially as it came on-board and started being quoted. But a reading of the literature will see that it was (and is) part of the larger picture of using  resources, especially on-line ones, w/o verifying reliability of the source.

A Naive Wikipedia User = A Computer Illiterate

AHAHAHAHA!!! The first three are controlled by the mob, Wiki Admins and those who edit the page last. Discussions only work if the people want to listen, if they choose not too and enough of them want to change or remove something it gets done. Your utterly naive notion that allowing everyone to edit something results in this best of source of information when NOTHING could be further from the truth.

Everyday computer illiterates such as yourself prove over and over just how clueless you really are. It is really sad.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

I've destroyed articles on Wikipedia

You have no idea how bad I and some people I know have destroyed Wikipedia articles. They are now so inaccurate yet "appear" correct with bogus sources, made up information that appears to be sourced, changes made by claims to authority and a volume of IP addresses. We do not for fun and can do it at will. Some of these changes have been there for years now.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Dude. You totally rock.

Dude. You totally rock.

We do not for fun

You just said you source everything, then post an unsourced assertion......

Like they said in merry old England, 'There's always some shit in the commons.'

Destroying Wikipedia Articles

Since you have so much faith in all those who edit it, you should have nothing to worry about as it is obvious there is no way for me to use multiple computer systems via proxys not known to Wikipedia in coordination with other users and a mix of Wiki accounts with impressive sounding names to make subtle but completely inaccurate changes to articles, using editing commentary like Wiki admins (NPOV, ect..) and then burying the edits with some additional accurate content, spelling corrections ect... and using the other accounts to quickly win any reverts. Please continue to live in you delusional computer illiterate bubble of what can and cannot be done to Wikipedia articles.

FYI we have more elaborate automated ways to make changes as well.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

live in you delusional computer illiterate bubble

Examples of your godly destructive powers?

Second call; else you're a fart in a windstorm.

Pretend it is not possible

First of all everything on Wikipedia is monitored and recorded thus I am not about give out IPs and accounts that have not been banned.

There is nothing "godly" about what you can do to Wikipedia once you understand how it works.

Just pretend it is not possible and I cannot do it and continue to live in your ignorant bliss that everything on Wikipedia is accurate, reliable and sourced.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

mouth - no action evidenced

The bragging of trashing Wikipedia articles by falsification of IP and other techniques sounds all too much like game hacker lunchroom talk of their 'godly' powers. And like much of that, no evidence is being produced.

Since you're so proud of you and your friends' trashing of Wikipedia, and that your prowess is so good you've avoided banning, then it should be no problem to produce evidence of what you've done. Just create a new one.

And, yes. Stuff happens; people interested in maintaining the integrity of their writing watch over it.

It is interesting that for someone with such a 'Wikipedia is worthless' attitude would go to the effort and time to put their scat on-line. Or, maybe it is just talk.

 

My bet?

It's talk, you got him, and he'll NEVER admit it.
JMR

A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.

My Promise

Please pretend I don't do network administration as part of my job and what I stated is impossible and everything on Wikipedia is magically accurate and no one can screw it up. Living in delusions usually makes life easier to handle. Oh and yeah there are no such things as rootkits that can infect you PC, run invisibly, monitor everything you type in and then send it all via an IRC account over the internet to someone elses computer. These things are all figments of my imagination.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Like I said

You got him.
JMR

A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.

Definitely

I agree, what I stated is impossible and requires "godly powers".

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

fart in a windstorm part 3 'godly powers'

Keep bragging - it shows your view of the world so well.

Still haven't seen examples of your skills in trashing Wikipedia -maybe you're just a script kiddie. Come on - high school kids circumnavigate  network security all the time, surely it wouldn't be that hard to reestablish what you need to continue trashing WP after showing us your capabilities.

Maybe Wikipedia's Network Security article would be a good target. Or Singer's.

Script Kiddie? Oh man... this is sad.

Please stop spending hours trying to look up terms you have no idea of the meaning. "Script Kiddie"? Please it is really sad. You don't need scripts to edit Wikipedia. A 5 year old can!

High School kids circumnavigate poorly setup networks by incompetent system administrators.

I already said that it is obviously impossible for me to do what I state.
Like I said just pretend it cannot be done. The last thing I am going to do is give you or a Wiki admin ANY relevant information about this.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

continued flatulence

" The last thing I am going to do is give you or a Wiki admin ANY relevant information about this."

But you and your friends' self-proclaimed skills at trashing whole Wikipedia articles are so good they escape detection!

"High School kids circumnavigate poorly setup networks by incompetent system administrators. "

Hubris can cause problems;  As can underestimating skills.

"The typical script kiddy uses existing and frequently well-known and easy-to-find techniques and programs or scripts to search for and exploit weaknesses in other computers on the Internet
- often randomly and with little regard or perhaps even understanding of the potentially harmful consequences."(my bold)

Hmmm, sounds like your earlier comments.

A 5-year old can edit Wikipedia

Giles, do you have any remote idea how much wrong and incorrect information exists on Wikipedia? Do you have any remote idea of how many articles exist on Wikipedia? It is not hard to find an article that is relevant but not highly edited or watched thus making the process of screwing it up that much easier especially once you know what you are doing. The watch list also allows me to keep the incorrect information on the page through a sheer number of accounts over an extended time. The mob rules Wikipedia.

You are under the impression that the changes are so outright obvious that they could never escape detection. Then again you also have no idea how Wikipedia works.

Any security admin or "hacker" for that matter will frequently use certain freely available applications and their own custom written ones if a good application does not exist for the task. But searching for exploits has nothing to do with editing Wikipedia.

Giles, you don't need scripts or "hacking software" to edit Wikipedia. Like I said a 5-year old can do it!

The one thing I can promise you is I know what I am doing. You can choose to believe me or not, I really don't care but your demonstrated absolute lack of computer, networking and security knowledge makes it unlikely you even understand what I am talking about.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Perhaps a 5 year old can,

Perhaps a 5 year old can, but it is apparent that Giles cannot.

fart in a windstorm part 2 -'rootkits that can infect you PC'

Would that be ' rootkits that can infect you PC' with a comma, thinking I am PC, or just an over reliance on the spell check without grammar knowledge?

And is"...rootkits that can infect you (sic) PC, run invisibly, monitor everything you
type in and then send it all via an IRC account over the internet to
someone elses (sic) computer..." an implied threat?The NB editors might be interested in that.

"...what I stated is impossible...". Nope, never said that; but you've not been able to prove you can, or do.

Be Bold: Just correct the

Be Bold: Just correct the typo.  Oh, wait a minute, this isn't Wikipedia, just a blog about it....

No need to fix anything on Wikipedia!

The all monitoring all knowing good editors will do that for you instantly! Why edit anything at all?

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Haxors Unleashed!

Yes I have used this forum software to install a rootkit on your computer and now have complete control! After you go figure out that is impossible we can get back to my 1337 skilz.

I obvious cannot prove it without giving away too much thus the catch-22 so pretend I cannot.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

fart in a windstorm part - what is it now 5 or 6?

"...I obvious (sic) cannot prove it..." (not to mention the other errors in the sentence...)

Which is the point I've been making.

OMG, he's right - needs a bit more access than through the forum for a rootkit install. 

The Wikipedia Paradox

1. If Wikipedia is so accurate then why would anyone ever need to make corrections to it? The pages should simply be locked for all eternity in their current perfectly accurate state.

2. Who decides who a "good editor" is? How are their qualifications determined? (anyone with an internet connection can edit any Wikipedia page at will and anyone can create a Wiki account)

3. How do you determine if a page is "good editor" corrected or "bad editor" inaccurate?

4. What is the time frame for a "good editor" to correct a page and how is this time frame determined?

5. If more then one "good editor" wants to make completely different changes to a page who wins? Could it be the last one who edited it? But which is the truth?

6. If more then one person is "watching" a topic for changes and they both want to make completely different changes to a page who wins? Could it be the last one who edited it? But which is the truth?

7. Are there more expert or non-expert people with Internet connections on a certain subject that can edit that subject's Wikipedia page?

8. With no value assigned to level of expertise for editors per Wikipedia page how is the accuracy of the edits determined?

9. How is a "neutral point of view" determined on Wikipedia pages and who makes this decision? Could it be the person who edited it last? How is this a "neutral point of view"?

10. At the time that you are looking at a page how do you determine it's level of accuracy?

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Accuracy - Errors - POV

The 2005 Nature study showed almost as many errors in Encyclopaedia Britannica as Wikipedia. How many of the errors in WP have been fixed v. EB by now?

Much of your argument is based on the assumption that one would use it as the only source; even the founders (another), as well as most any librarian, writer, fact-checker, editor, etc would tell you that is not the way good research is done.

Another part of your argument is based on ignoring the role of the talk pages. Any page can have multiple authors and editors, some pages have editors who hold a a higher level of 'ownership' and thus more closely watch the page. Most opinionated editor/authors acknowledge that just revising won't eliminate what is, to them, unwanted information and work out that multiple POV's (hence - neutral overall) are given space if there can be reliable sources to back it up. Note also that the software allows for easy creation of new articles so as the topic grows it can be split into finer aspects with better resolution of topics.

A point about 7. - Of course, unless you're banned, anyone can go make changes anywhere. Generally speaking malicious 'editing' gets reverted fairly quickly. Yes, a range of time frames depending on the article in how quick that happens. But how long does a correction in a newspaper take and where does it show up? Or a book? Or a privately owned website? Editing changes that are done with positive intentions - adding a different POV, expanding on a statement, fixing unclear writing - undergo public scrutiny, an informal peer review.
On your own website, you certainly have the right to spout off on any topic you feel ownership to or expertise in. It might garner comments, if allowed and accepted, or emails; Either of which might not be viewed by anyone using your site for research. However, that same comment in WP does offer a same place opportunity for a counter argument/POV as long as there are reliable resources backing them up.

Yes, there are published articles and blog discussion discussing problems and issues with WP; one of the consistent pieces of information missing is that WP doesn't position itself as authoritative and that it does rely on external sources for verifiability.

The Nature Study is Bullshit

Giles you are slow... this info was known 3-years ago.

Nature mag cooked Wikipedia study (The Register)
Wikipedia - Fatally Flawed: Refuting the recent study on encyclopedic accuracy by the journal Nature (PDF) (Britannica)

Using an encylopedia like Britannica is a reliable, accurate source.

The talk page is a joke and can be edited by anyone. That is the worst setup ever. You are under the naive assumption everyone does or will use the talk page or that even after using it, it will resolve the issue.

Who determines what is a "neutral point of view"?

Who determines a source is reliable?

"Generally speaking malicious 'editing' gets reverted fairly quickly"

Really?


3. How do you determine if a page is "good editor" corrected or "bad editor" inaccurate?


4. What is the time frame for a "good editor" to correct a page and how is this time frame determined?

So why are scientific journals not peer-reviewed by everyone?

The counter argument only stays on the page based on who edited it last.

Wikipedia is a joke and should be treated as such.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

as was the Britannica rebuttal

Of course Nature rebutted Britannica's review.

"And of the 123 purported errors in question, Britannica takes issue with fewer than half."  Britannica attacks  Nature  March 2006 (available through Proquest.)

Interesting that you didn't mention that - but then it isn't available on-line,

 

"Using an encylopedia like Britannica is a reliable, accurate source."

As are World Book, Encyclopedia Americana, the host of specialized encyclopedias; but if you cited any of them in a school paper there would be at least points taken off to perhaps an offer to resubmit it after changes were made.

Yes, Wikipedia uses a different paradigm than the 'expert-driven' model used by the commercial encyclopedias. And yes, there can be problems with 'expertise'.  But, what are your qualifications for submitting all the links you post here?  Do you think you'd meet quality standards for writing or editing an article?

You've repeatedly spoken of how delighted you are to destroy articles,yet can't submit an example.

As you've recently stated, use it as as 'starting' or 'jumping off' resource. Which I stated from the beginning.

 

""Generally speaking malicious 'editing' gets reverted fairly quickly"


Really?
"

Examples that they aren't? 

The Nature Study was Obliterated by Britannica

"Many publications had assumed Nature's Wikipedia story was objectively reporting the work of scientists - Nature's staple - rather than a news report assembled by journalists pretending to be scientists [...]

But Nature sent only misleading fragments of some Britannica articles to the reviewers, sent extracts of the children's version and Britannica's "book of the year" to others, and in one case, simply stitched together bits from different articles and inserted its own material, passing it off as a single Britannica entry.

Dozens of inaccuracies attributed to the Britannica were not inaccuracies at all, and a number of the articles Nature examined were not even in the Encyclopedia Britannica. The study was so poorly carried out and its findings so error-laden that it was completely without merit."

In one case, for example. Nature's peer reviewer was sent only the 350 word introduction to a 6,000 word Britannica article on lipids - which was criticized for containing omissions.

Dozens of the so-called inaccuracies they attributed to us were nothing of the kind; they were the result of reviewers expressing opinions that differed from ours about what should be included in an encyclopedia article. In these cases Britannica's coverage was actually sound.

And now we know it was anything but scientific."

The Nature Study was not peer-reviewed but a biased flawed study done by journalists with the intent to use propaganda to make Wikipedia seem like an accurate source. Now that the truth has been exposed the Nature study is worthless and you are stuck once again trying to defend propaganda.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Citing sources?

I thought you said you always cited sources---

This is from The Register, which doesn't cite any resources or proof for any of  their contentions.So, it seems to be an article about research tools using no research.....

 

Many of the 'issues' are directly from  EB's report, which addressed about half the errors found in the Nature study.

Many of those complaints are refuted by Nature in their reply (Britannica Attacks - available through ProQuest) to the EB article.

Britannica offers free trials, so you can compare articles yourself, btw

 

The Nature Study was not done by Scientists or Peer-Reviewed

You lose again Giles!

Try clicking on the second page of the register article, all the sources are cited there and I already cited them above.

Nature mag cooked Wikipedia study (The Register)
Wikipedia - Fatally Flawed: Refuting the recent study on encyclopedic accuracy by the journal Nature (PDF) (Britannica)

The fact is the Nature study was not done by Scientists or was "Pee-Reviewed".

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

"Hacking"

Falsification of an IP address known as spoofing is more advanced, it is much simplier to use a proxy server. There is no "hacking" involved this is basic IP networking knowledge, any network technician or admin knows how to do it. Wikipedia is wide open and anyone can edit it.

Wikipedia does ban proxy servers and I have no intention of getting the ones I am using banned and no it is not that simple to make new ones or use others that are not already banned, you can find them easily yes but the publicly known ones are banned.

Also everything that is edited is saved and some of my techniques on how to destroy articles via multiple accounts and IPs would be revealed and thus the admins could look for ways around to monitor for it.

Just pretend I cannot do it and pretend what you read on Wikipedia is all true and accurate.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

fart in a windstorm part 4 - spoofing

Still haven't seen examples of your skills in trashing Wikipedia -maybe
you're just a script kiddie. Come on - high school kids circumnavigate 
network security all the time with proxy servers, surely it wouldn't be that hard to
reestablish what you need to continue trashing WP after showing us your
capabilities.

You are aware, I hope, that all these hacker comments you're making casts a certain light on your credibility as a reliable source of delayer information.

1337 Haxors!!!!!!!!

My skillz don't exist and are just a figment of my imagination.

It is obvious Wikipedia is instantly autocorrected by "good" editors who all hold PhDs on the subject they monitor 24/7 thus it is all good in fantasy land.

I am aware none of the sources I post are to Wikipedia and thus make me the 1337 source of information!!!

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Source evaluation: good and good for you!

 

You are aware, I hope, that all these hacker comments you're making casts a certain light on your credibility as a reliable source of delayer information.  Hilarious.  You have no idea who you are talking to on these boards.  What if he's being 100% honest with you? 

Besides, what credibility do YOU have?  Techinical issues aside, quite simply, PopTech has a leg up on you in one very important way: he has the good sense to evaluate his sources, something you absolutely refuse to do.  That alone leaves your own credibility shot. 

After your admission that source evaluation is beneath you, how can I lend ANY credibility to ANYTHING you post?

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

where do you see that?

" your admission that source evaluation is beneath you"

 

One of the main points of this discussion is evaluation of sources, esp verifying WP articles through the quality of cited sources!

 

Where, you ask?

Where do I see that, you ask?

Why, your slavish defense of a source that cannot be properly evaluated, that's all. 

If you paid more than lip service to source evaluation, you would be taking shots at Wikipedia yourself.  PopTech's assessment of Wikipedia being a "jump-off point" is advice I have heard from others and I don't have a problem with that.  But you'll never see me cite it as a source here or elsewhere for good reason.

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

The 'source evaluation'

The 'source evaluation' (actually, resource evaluation) we're talking about at this point is not evaluating Wikipedia, but evaluation of the sources cited in WP.

One aspect you might want to think about is WP footnotes and, when possible, links to sources fact by fact.  EB and other major commercial encyclopedias often don't include a bibliography or a works cited list, nor footnotes where information comes from. You are relying on a  sometimes unsigned article, unknown editors and fact-checkers.

Consider the 2-5 year lag between updates in articles; even the 'Further Reading' lists can be out of date - not to mention salient facts in the article.

Which is one reason librarians, teachers, professors, editors advise writers to not cite any encyclopedia. Which I was saying from the beginning. 

 

Wikipedia!!??? Are you kidding

The only time it's OK to use that is if you are taking what amounts to an internet poll of the average thoughts on the topic or issue. That's like reading Salon to get financial information.

 

The day that "politician" became a career choice is the day we started losing the Republic. Let's get it back! Alan Keyes '08.

And an example emerges, as if to make my point...

Thanks.
JMR

A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.

Fascinating

I've always been a news junkie and regularly "troll" the libs various websites to see/hear what they're thinking.

This column hits close to home since my daughter is editor of her high school newspaper her senior year.  For the last three years she has had to duke it out with school administration or the paper's sponosor over her various articles that have a conservative whiff.  So, she understands the battle.

What I believe she's unprepared for, though, is college.  She has been accpeted into a major university and plans to major in journalism.  Given what I know (and remember from my college days) of college campii, I have a real fear of her becoming disheartened with the upcoming battles she has yet to face at that level.  

 The comment that conservatives need to incubate their own is very true but interestingly, she finds little, if any, response from the various conservative sources in her development.

Love the image showing the

Love the image showing the dog fight at the Death Star with Obama (would've been a lot funnier though if it were Hillary, as she reminds me more of Darth Vader, IMHO) piloting the imperial TIE Fighter.

I would've used Hillary there

But she's losing so Obama seemed more appropriate. There is something that would've been funnier about her in that pic though.

Matthew

Don't underestimate the power of the Dark Side.

Still pretty darn funny, regardless.  Thank God for humor.

misspelling/typo

Matt, in the second to last paragraph the word should be spelled "inchoate". Good article btw.

A couple of points:

A couple of points: Wallowing in the mud with a pig only gets you dirty and the pig likes it. I refuse to give up my life and happiness to fight some gritty, soul destroying mental chess game against some abstract "metanarrative." I'm not in the mood to make politics my religion. This is not due to fear of the "mainstream" however, I just prefer to deal with the mainstream on personal levels and not on political leves like liberals, who treat the public as abstract figures and statistics, to be used and misused at will to gain power. Conservatives deal with mainstream Americans and real life people personally. That is why so many states are still mainly conservative, liberal domination of the pop culture nonwithstanding.

Second, couldn't you have used a better term than "ghetto?" How about "niche?" Though some of those "niches" are actually rather large.

I disagree that conservative "elites" have only taken money from their supporters. That money has been used to actually bring about positive efforts for families, the military and business. It would be a shame to waste all these resources on playing games on Wikipedia and YouTube, those folks are so fanatical you are not going to change their mind anymore than Osama is going to be nice. And these are not people who matter much, they are severe ideologues who represent a tiny portion of the population. The more liberal elites adopt these stances, the more they will be exposed. Also, don't confuse the Internet with the mainstream, regular Internet users are still the minority of Americans, and those who use it for political debate are even less so.

I do agree more conservatives are needed in mainstream journalism, though unlike liberals I can bet conservatives will be more objective, as they do not redefine everything like liberals do to fit an established criteria. However, I doubt conervatives will be adapting outright lies and promoting fringe beliefs for the sake of appearing objective like liberals do, but they'd still do a better job. Describing events and facts without personal commentary is something we do everyday. It is nowhere near as hard as journalists make it out to be.

I use an "inhouse" wiki,

I use an "inhouse" wiki, the format is -ok- but, this horse is beat. As always (even at work) trust the wiki at your own peril 

"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain