You may not be aware of it but Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia, is a virtual war zone, one of which most conservatives are blissfully unaware. Over at the New Republic, Eve Fairbanks explores this in the presidential campaign where supporters and critics of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton battle daily over their entries:
Back when we got basic information from encyclopedias instead of Wikipedia, politicians were at the mercy of the encyclopedia-writers' particular biases. Take the 1911 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Apparently controlled by smug British nationalists, it described the important Irish leader Charles Stewart Parnell as "not over-scrupulous," "repellent," "powerful for evil," and, owing to the "mental affliction of his ancestors," probably possessing a "mental equilibrium [that] was not always stable."
Wikipedia was supposed to fix this problem. Anyone can add, delete, or massage language in its online articles, and--boom!--refresh the page to see their changes appear instantly. These volunteer contributors ("editors," in Wikipedia lingo) discuss their changes on an article's associated "talk page," and eventually (or so the theory goes) merge their different perspectives on various subjects into something truly neutral. But, after you see what happens when two warring Democratic candidates are thrown to the mercy of the Wikipedians, you kind of yearn for the 1911 Britannica.
How does a Wikipedia page get controlled exactly? Fairbanks looks at how one or two individuals can completely skew a page provided they devote enough time to it:
The battles over Hillary's and Obama's pages have been so heated because the stakes are so high. The candidates' Wikipedia pages are their second Google hits, right after their official campaign portals. And, with Clinton and Obama locked in a tight race, even the simplest adjectives seem to become powerful weapons. (By contrast, much of the editing on John McCain's page these days involves correcting formatting mistakes.) With emotions running high (at this point, is it really possible for anyone not to be "POV" on Clinton or Obama?), you would think that Wikipedia's entries on the candidates--which, after all, anyone can edit--would have long ago devolved, as the race itself pretty much has, into total chaos. But, for all the bickering, this hasn't quite happened--thanks, in part, to a 53-year-old software developer from central New Jersey named Jonathan Schilling.
Schilling is the man who protects Hillary's online self from the public's hatred. He estimates that he spends up to 15 hours per week editing Wikipedia under the name "Wasted Time R"--much of it, these days, standing watch over Hillary's page. Hardly a news event or argument over her situation goes by without Wasted Time R's input: He edited her page 77 times in the last month, mostly pruning away changes he viewed as inappropriate, such as a rant about Geraldine Ferraro or a stealthy effort to diminish Hillary's role in improving the State Children's Health Insurance Program. The fact that Schilling is married to a librarian who, he laments, "never recommends anybody use Wikipedia" (no one, no one, hates Wikipedia as much as librarians) does not diminish his vigilance. "You constantly have to police [the page]," he says, recalling the way Rudy Giuliani's Wikipedia article declined in quality after its protectors lost interest. "Otherwise, it diverts into a state of nature."
She also looks at an Obama supporter who does the same thing, noting, however, that Obama fans are far more active in protecting their candidate's entry from negative remarks. Very interesting article and higly worth reading. (Here's the link.)
Since Fairbanks works for the liberal New Republic, you can't begrudge her exclusive focus on the Democrats. It makes you wonder, though, what about the Republicans? I don't have the time to fully delve into this right now (see Dave Pierre's earlier NB post on bias at Wikipedia for a comprehensive look or this one by me on the experience of a conservative Keith Olbermann critic at Wikipedia) but suffice it to say, there is a very real problem with left-wingers bending Wikipedia to suit their agenda.
What to do about this problem, though? That's a topic William Beutler explored yesterday over at Blog, P.I.:
Conservatives grouse that the writers and editors at the national magazines lean left, and there is definitely some truth to that. Not to a man and woman, and this does not mean their reporting follows the Democratic Party line, but it does have consequences on which stories are covered and how they are covered. But I think the lessons learned are wrong, or at best incomplete.
The reaction is usually to set up an alternative forum which is defined as being explicitly conservative. The problem is that these alternative organizations often operate inside a bubble which their “liberal” counterparts do not. This can be the case beyond journalism as well. On the web we can see this very clearly: The non-partisan but in some ways “liberal” Wikipedia has been answered by the conservative-minded, low-quality Conservapedia. [...]
The liberal tilt of mainstream newspapers and magazines certainly has something to do with the professional networks within which editors find writers for their stories. But it also has something to do with conservative journalists rarely operating outside their zone of comfort. And especially in magazine articles, they tend to add commentary to existing stories rather than going out and finding new ones.
This is how it works: Liberals get reporting jobs. Conservatives get opinion columns. Look at the Newsweek masthead, liberal Jonathan Alter does indeed have an opinion column, but his full title is Senior Editor and Columnist. George Will is just Columnist. The columnist can make overt arguments the way a reporter cannot, but the columnist’s words are also unmistakably opinions. But decisions that go into how a story is reported are the product of a reporters’ opinions, too. These biases are not always obvious.
I'm inclined to agree with Beutler's analysis here. Compared to the left, the right has remarkably less interest in "objectivity." This is unfortunate because the self-described objective news sources are the ones that dominate our media age and will continue to do so. Instead of tuning out the discussion and founding our own little right-wing ghettos, conservatives should be unafraid to become mainstream--to learn to appeal to the politically inchoate, ignorant, and unaligned in addition to the right-leaning public.
This does not mean abandoning conservative principles or "selling out." What it does mean is to stop thinking we're above getting into the trenches which in today's media environment means getting into journalism, Wikipedia, YouTube, and other organs of mainstream pop culture. How do you do that? By taking time to engage in political activism: call your local media outlets when you spot bias or inaccuracies, "adopt" a MSM web site and make your voice heard there, and learn how to recalibrate what you're saying to the sensibilities of the non-political.
Why is all of this important? Because politics is really a two-front war fought by three separate classes. The most commonly followed front is the political front, fought by the political class which seeks to construct, support, and execute policies preferred by their respective sides. The right has done well at building up itself on the political front. We have numerous institutions and political groups designed to promote and lobby for conservative policies. This is the smallest class but too often it thinks it is the most important. In truth it's not.
The second front is the mainstream front and it's here that the right is in dire need of a strategic recalibration. Called the "popular front" in Marxist literature, the mainstream front is the where the wars are fought. This is a truth the right has seemingly lost sight of as its become occupied with the minutiae of day-to-day politics. Politics is not won or lost by senatorial procedure debates or earmarks. It's won or lost by who is better able to shape the metanarrative. Ever since its existence, the left has been superior at this. This superior grasp of the larger fight is why conservatives are always complaining about how America is ever-drifting toward socialism.
The war for the political metanarrative is essentially fought by two different groups, both of which the the right has not paid sufficient attention to. Most conservative elites have not effectively taken advantage of our natural core constituency other than to raise money from it. That is a huge mistake.
There is a large body of people out there who are willing and eager to help advance the cause of conservative libertarianism but because would-be activists (especially on the right) lead very busy lives, they need assistance from the political class to know what to do and how to do it. The right needs to spend the time and money necessary to cultivate this group. So far it hasn't.
The other group fighting in the metanarrative war is the partially aligned. As badly as the right has done at cultivating its activists, it's done even worse at cultivating this group: journalists, academics, libertarians, and cultural elites. Some of these people are "team players" for one side or the other but most are not. They may have affinities but most are more likely to oppose something "bad" than support something "good." The right needs to do better at developing this group, understanding it, and tailoring its message to it. This is a critical step because the partially aligned are the gatekeepers of culture. Their influence is tremendous on people who are on the fence ideologically or who are politically inchoate.
Fighting and winning the metanarrative war is not an impossible task. It can be done and was starting to get done when Ronald Reagan was in power. Here's hoping the right gets its act together and resumes this critical task.
—Matthew Sheffield is Editor of NewsBusters.















Comments Policy
Matt,
March 31, 2008 - 23:48 ET by BlondeI'm a bit unclear as to your point:
What it does mean is to stop thinking we're above getting into the trenches which in today's media environment means getting into journalism, Wikipedia, YouTube, and other organs of mainstream pop culture.
Do you mean we get down & dirty with them, on their own level? Because the level I see on Wiki, YouTube, etc. is a level to which I'd not be comfortable.
Or is it your contention that we continue to take the "high road" (fat lot of good that's done, BTW).
Surely there is some better way to go...but I'm just not quite seeing it here.
Suggestions?
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Blonde,
April 1, 2008 - 00:07 ET by RESTLESS 1I think Matt is saying that conservatives need to be willing to go where the mainstream is. They have to be willing to work at newsweek, cbs, cnn, etc... while being themselves. Conservatives have a hard time believing they will be taken seriously at these media outlets, and sometimes seem to go along to get along (hmm, who does that remind you of ?). Also, most of us seem to congregate together at sites like this, instead of getting out there where most people are at, discussing the news of the day despite the petty remarks that we are likely to hear or read. At Newsbusters, we are preaching to the choir. It's the sinners outside that need to hear what we have to say.
Another way of putting it is Conservatives need a voice in the reporting and research side of the news. They need to decide which stories they will seek and how they are reported. Too many Conservatives are happy to just opine, and often they are speaking to a narrow audience that already agrees with them, rather than getting new information to the masses who may only get their news from over the air networks.
Some times the war needs to
April 1, 2008 - 00:07 ET by AJSome times the war needs to be fought in foreign fields-- we can't just toss hot lead from the safety of our fortresses. I suppose I view it as moving in to shake things up a bit. But just because we we're moving to their "medium" doesn't mean we've moved to their level. It should rather mean that we're standing up to the behemoth of liberal arrogance.
Websites like newsbusters.org are great but it's some times like were standing on a hill, shouting our message but there's no one within earshot to hear. Why not go where people will hear?
(Excuse all the analogies-- I just read a couple of philosophy articles... ugh.)
Restless & AJ
April 1, 2008 - 00:16 ET by BlondeOK. I see your point(s).
I do, on a daily basis, try to engage the (vast majority) of liberal stupidity I encounter.
It's a hard road to travel though. For the most part, I engage people who are several levels beneath me, professionally. So, I'm somewhat subject to "harrassment" rules. It's difficult.
Having said that, though, when I encounter my liberal "peers", I feel no compunction about nailing their stupidity to the wall. Just reading what I typed, however, I realize that is not such a great approach. Perhaps I should treat my "peer" liberals in the exact same way I'd treat one of my children (read, employees).
Okay....I'll try it tomorrow, and the next day....and get back to you all. It should be interesting.
Not that I'm expecting any results, mind you. Liberal fools are liberal fools. I'd just like for them to do (and understand) their own tax returns. That would be an excellent start, don't you think?
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
I can't go there re the tax
April 1, 2008 - 00:21 ET by RESTLESS 1I can't go there re the tax returns. We have a girl that does ours. I could do them, but I am not only a good conservative, I'm a lazy one too (at least when it comes to tax forms). :)
Ha! That's Good
April 1, 2008 - 00:26 ET by BlondeI do my own, though.
Particularly after I found out how much the accountant charged for it.
It takes about an hour (I have good records), even with a long form....for which I used to get charged several hundred bucks.
The truth of the matter is, though, that people are scared to death of the IRS....it's domestic terror, pure and simple. Just think what it would be like if Hillary were Pres. Yikes!
Okay, I'm going to stop, now.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
I should say that there are
April 1, 2008 - 13:59 ET by AJI should say that there are just some liberals that you can't talk to. I've met people (liberals) who, as soon as they know they've been disproven, will immediately stick their fingers in their ears* and start shouting "nah, nah, nah-- I can't hear you!! Mmmm-- nah, nah, nah-nah, nah!!!!". Those people you can only pray for and hope reality gives them a swift kick in the butt.
* Well, not literally, but it wouldn't startle me to see a Liberal do that.
I like that thought
April 1, 2008 - 08:28 ET by FastEdtalk to them like they're children - after all - they want everything handed to them, and do things without consequence.
Example: when people ocmplain about "tax breaks for the rich", I agree with them, at first, then ask them, how much of that "tax" money made into THEIR hands, or how much has their taxes gone down? "Top executives make too much money" - if everyone of them got zero tomorrow, how much more would you get? I then point out that they seem to be envious, and ask if they could do that person's job? Just getting them to think is kinda fun.
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad V
a very nice piece matthew.
April 1, 2008 - 00:15 ET by crshedda very nice piece matthew. i'm impressed. i especially like the line you wrote:
'I'm inclined to agree with Beutler's analysis here. Compared to the left, the right has remarkably less interest in "objectivity."'
because i don't swallow everything here hook, line and sinker, most claim i am a liberal.
regardless of what rush says, there are real moderates in this country. i can see arguments from both sides. i, for one, would like to see more 'objectivity' from conservatives. talk to me in logical terms and backup what you say without the namecalling. that is all i ask, yet that makes me a liberal on this site.
good article, and i'm looking forward to more.
crshedd
April 1, 2008 - 00:21 ET by BlondeSeriously, what are you doing hanging around this site? You post things, just like the rest of the trolls...just for a reaction.
What's up with that?
Are you a "real" moderate? Dude, conservatives don't do "objective". We have our point of view, we don't care about your "moderatisivm". What do you not understand about that?
You can yack all night long....we have our values, and our views....and all of your touchy, feely crying isn't going to move us off our beliefs one iota.
So again, what is it you don't get? I'm seriously curious.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Crshedd a moderate? HA!
April 3, 2008 - 02:10 ET by UnsaneBlonde, bear in mind that crshedd is a flaming Leftist who is too ashamed to admit it.
He should be thankful the search function sucks, or else I'd quote from him, verbatim, where he gushes about how he feels every American "deserves" quality health care. No doubt, the government should pamper everyone with this goodie just for being born.
Among other things, he believes he has the unalienable right to steal from producers such as Lee Raymond because it is simply not right, in his happy little world, that he made $400 million from ExxonMobil (crshedd obviously does not understand what my tagline says).
Basically he is a whiny Socialist who cannot imagine life without living underneath the skirt of a government Nanny.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
hmmm.
April 1, 2008 - 01:00 ET by David N MOI disagree. I believe conservatives are far more objective than their liberal counterparts. Liberals can be identified by how many time they re-define the person or item in question to make it/them fit the current situation. Ie. redefine marriage to make it fit their gay ideas and the wikipedia Hill-Obama issue. With very few exceptions conversatives do not do that.
Look for gutter talk and you'll find liberals.
David... Bingo! "Never
April 1, 2008 - 01:08 ET by bigtimerDavid...
Bingo!
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
Blonde
April 1, 2008 - 01:17 ET by Matthew Sheffieldplease see the revised version of my piece. I hope that explains what I am trying to get at.
Gotta love those trolls
April 1, 2008 - 01:41 ET by wiwfGotta love those trolls that happen to not read any proof we provide, stating "please back up you illogical arguments without the name calling" and other bogus things like that. They really make me laugh with their sheer hypocritical ignorance. :)
The Rocky Mountain Collegian: Illustrating Idiocy
Perhaps one place to start
April 1, 2008 - 07:51 ET by sarcasmoWould be for conservatives to accept the fact that -- for all its admitted faults -- Wikipedia is capable of excellence. I've never understood the level of senseless anger at a mere tool that can be misused like just about every other halfway useful tool in humanity's toolkit, when the energy spent on anger might be used to fix it instead. If an endorsement helps, our CIA not only frequently-edits the thing, but now even uses an internal version for itself.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Sarc, you mean?
April 1, 2008 - 08:11 ET by AgnosticDon't blame Wikipedia but place the blame on the abusers.
Kind of like, don't blame the internet but blame the students and teachers that don't respect plagerism rules.
I can see where Wikipedia would get blamed for some things
April 5, 2008 - 05:17 ET by sarcasmoBut an earlier adoption of Wiki-style open-ness would sure prevent some problems. It was clueless, pointy haired Keeloq executives who relied on crappy key management & poor cryptography to "protect" their customers. Those customers may well include you even if you've never heard of Keeloq. (Still feel "safe" with that coded garage door opener guarding all your expensive stuff? Don't. It's not Jimmy Wales who did this to you, either, so the answer to this problem is NOT passing yet-another statist law.) Want to do some good? Sue the pointy-haired ones at Keeloq, rather than blaming Wikipedia for doing its job again by telling the truth. To me, this deliberate security cluelessness literally screams "class action lawsuit."
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Wikipedia is total and utter Bullshit
April 1, 2008 - 11:22 ET by PopularTechIt is impossible for Wikipedia to ever achieve "excellence" because ANYONE can edit it at will. That means a 5 year old can change what someone with a PhD edited. Ultimately this means whoever wants to spend the most amount of time editing it (with the administration's approval) will win. Admin approval is essential since they can silence you by banning your account or IP (even though there are easily ways aroung this) and can lock topics (yet still edit them) and thus declare victory for whoever they choose.
Anyone who remotely understands how Wikipedia works realizes it is an unreliable propaganda information source used only by fools as a "real" source and the rest of us as a jumping off point.
You cannot fix something broken by design - it is an impossibility.
The Faith-Based Encyclopedia (Robert McHenry, Former Editor in Chief, the Encyclopedia Britannica)
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
If it's "broken by design"
April 1, 2008 - 11:28 ET by sarcasmoWhy would an entire US intelligence agency spend money on implementing it? It's not perfect, but I stand by all my words. Hell, the McDonalds menu history page alone proves my point extensively. The most expensive encyclopedias of my youth could not have done close to that job. It's a tool, folks. IMO the tool's not the problem.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Can 5 year olds edit the CIA Wiki?
April 1, 2008 - 11:34 ET by PopularTechBuying Wiki software which you can setup and restrict who edits it internally and having it wide open to any idiot with a computer are two different things.
You do know the difference between Wikipedia and Wiki Software and are aware that Wiki software can be setup with accounts and access can be limited to certain pages via these accounts? Thus you can allow only certain CIA staff who covers the Iraq War to edit the Iraq War page, this is a far cry from having code pink allowed to edit it.
Yes the design of the tool and it's implementation are the problem!
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
If they've got access
April 1, 2008 - 11:40 ET by sarcasmoYour problem with the tool seems to be instead with the owner of the tool. Jimmy Wales runs the thing in a certain way that's not popular around here, but it's just a tool even if he occasionally uses it to stick conservatives in the eye. The conservative alternative using the same software is, as mentioned, a dead ghetto. Wales' strategy now of "allow anyone" has let the tool he made grow very quickly. In the future, he's likely to make changes that will increase accuracy, if my guess is right. Until then, I can tell complainers to go ask for all your money back.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
You did not answer the question(s)
April 1, 2008 - 11:50 ET by PopularTechNO my problem is with a poorly designed biased website that anyone can edit at will being passed off as an "encyclopedia".
1. Can a 5-year old edit the CIA Wiki?
2. Can a 5-year old edit Wikipedia?
3. Is the current information based on whoever edited the page last?
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
See the subject line
April 1, 2008 - 11:51 ET by sarcasmoFor your answers. You just don't particularly like my answers, but believe me, I answered you first thing....
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Please answer the questions
April 1, 2008 - 11:54 ET by PopularTech1. It is safe to say that 5-year olds do work for the CIA thus cannot edit their internal Wiki database.
Now please answer the other questions.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
No, it's not safe.
April 1, 2008 - 12:31 ET by sarcasmoI've seen highly placed US government officials exercising dismal computer "security" practices. Their eventual exploiter is unlikely to be as young as 5, but exploits happen to government users all the time in the world of computers. I suggest reading the Reason article I linked. "Wikipedia had an error. Who knew?" is one of the funniest lines ever, especially in this somewhat hysterical context.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Libertarian Blindness to Technology
April 1, 2008 - 13:15 ET by PopularTechOh so Jimbo is a libertarian no wonder you are tying to defend a technology you are incapable of defending.
We are not discussing computer security. Editing Wikipedia at will by anyone 24/7 worldwide has absolutely NO relation to hacking into the CIA and then editing their internal Wiki database of which the only comparison to Wikipedia is the Wiki software used. Please.
I suggest comprehending how Wikipedia works and understand why it can NEVER be considered reliable or accurate EVER.
The Faith-Based Encyclopedia (Robert McHenry, Former Editor in Chief, the Encyclopedia Britannica)
I am sorry to break it to you but anarchy never works!
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
rather egalitarian, eh?
April 1, 2008 - 16:34 ET by Giles Winterbourne1. Read the article - not accessible to the public. CIA could have used any of a range of CMS systems,
2. Yeah, possibly.
But to make it a bit less absurd, how about a 7th grader fixing an error? Say an author birth date. Or adding a death date just after it was in the papers? Or, god forbid, writing an article about game cheats?
Or a grad student or a working professional updating an article in their field of expertise?
Yes, I've edited some pieces there. Most have 'stuck', for up to three years now. My guess is the orig authors and later editors have seen them and approved.
3. Only the piece that was changed - easy enough to check the revision history. Easy enough to check the source. Or even the history of the editor in most cases.
But, following your logic, we shouldn't accept anything written here either. No way to verify expertise in the topic, for example. Harder to verify the quality of sources if the reader is not expert in the topic. In Wikipedia, resources of dubious quality get called on. Often pretty quickly.
There are other articles about Wikipedia, rather than rely on a very likely biased article written by an ex-editor of EB, perhaps Wikipedia:A Literature Review would be a more reasonable start (Word .doc file)
Wikipedia Delusions
April 1, 2008 - 20:05 ET by PopularTechGiles, answer these questions Yes or No:
1. Can a 5-year old edit Wikipedia?
2. Is the current information on Wikipedia based on whoever edited the page last?
Your irrelevant commentary of having made an edit and having it "stuck" to one of the million's of pages is idiotic beyond belief. What makes the original authors, you or any of the "editors" qualified to be an authority on the subject? What makes what is on Wikipedia factually true?
You definitely should not accept anything written here that is not sourced which is why that is all I do!
In Wikipedia it is impossible to verify ANYONE's "expertise". Your naive notion of resources of "dubious quality" getting called on is so typical of those who have no concept of how Wikipedia works. Majority and last editing rules with the help of the Wiki Admins. Any source can be removed if enough people, a Wiki Admin or someone with enough time on their hands wants it gone and "decide" it is of "debious quality".
Yes there are other articles on Wikipedia:
A false Wikipedia 'biography' (USA Today)
A History Department Bans Citing Wikipedia as a Research Source (The New York Times)
Insider Editing at Wikipedia (The New York Times)
The Wikification of Knowledge (John C. Dvorak, PC Mag)
Who's responsible for Wikipedia? (The Register)
Wikipedia "broken beyond repair", co-founder says (The Inquirer)
Wikipedia founder admits to serious quality problems (The Register)
Wikipedia: magic, monkeys and typewriters (The Register)
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
Perhaps a closer read is necessary
April 1, 2008 - 23:06 ET by Giles WinterbourneAlready answered.
You stated I said 'an edit' when the quote would really be "...some pieces there. Most have 'stuck', for up to three years now."
"...that is not sourced which is why that is all I do."
While sourcing is the first thing, one also needs to do content analysis, else it can be GIGO.
"In Wikipedia it is impossible to verify ANYONE's "expertise"..."
As here, also.
"...so typical of those who have no concept of how Wikipedia works."
I think you're missing the Discussion page, possibly the History page, and probably the Watch feature.
Delusions of how Wikipedia works
April 2, 2008 - 02:07 ET by PopularTech1. Can a 5-year old edit Wikipedia?
Answer - Yes
2. Is the current information on Wikipedia based on whoever edited the page last?
Answer - Yes
Thus the accuracy of wikipedia is impossible to determine and is controlled by whoever has edited a page last.
The Discussions page can be edit too! That is always fun having someone edit what you just said! The History page on most articles can go on for hundreds or thousands of edits. You would need to devote a lifetime to checking the history of a major article. The watch feature simply allows whoever wants to control the content of the article an easy way to do so. Thus the high school dropout who thinks he knows how something about (random subject) can make sure all his incorrect information stays on the page.
Getting accurate information into Wikipedia is the equivalent of trying to educate everyone who has an internet connection on the planet up to your level of knowledge on the subject and then for the rest of your life arguing with everyone you have not yet educated.
In Wikipedia one expert with a PhD can be "corrected" by masses of morons and there is nothing you can do about it.
Only fools think otherwise.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
The Discussions page can be edit (sic) too!
April 2, 2008 - 05:05 ET by Giles WinterbourneYou know, in a civil society most people abide by the rules. Of course there are always going to be little shits leaving behind their off-spring .
Wikipedia is a robust community. Simple rules. "As there are many more editors intent upon good quality articles than
any other kind, articles that are poorly edited are usually corrected
promptly."
And you are over-generalizing to create an argument with the 'latest edit' trashing the whole article. Just as the absurd '5 year old' argument.
"trying to educate everyone who has an internet connection on the planet" would hold true here also, of course.
Cry, Cry and Cry some more Giles
April 2, 2008 - 10:02 ET by PopularTechFact = it is easy for anyone who knows what they are doing to destroy the integrity of any article on Wikipedia (not that they need the help), this is by design (or lack of).
Live in your fantasy of delusions Giles. Please pretend there are all these "good" editors who know everything and fix everything correctly. I mean there are obviously more "good" Wikipedia editors then there are Internet Users (1,319,872,109) and they all monitor ever change made to every article 24/7. What a UTOPIA!
Maybe if you post "poorly edited articles are fixed promptly" over and over it will make it magically become true!
You got me Giles, obviously the last person who edits a wikipedia article is not the most recent information you see on the page. It really goes through this special "good" editor filter who has a PhD on the topic and is all knowing and can make instantaneous corrections! You know so much more about Wikipedia then me I had no idea how it worked until you explained it!
Oh and yeah 5 year olds cannot edit Wikipedia because Wikipedia software is SOOOOOO advanced it can detect when a 5 year is editing a page and prevents them from screwing it up, amazing!
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
fart in a windstorm part 1
April 2, 2008 - 12:15 ET by Giles WinterbourneLet's just say that if you want to play with cat litter deposits and they land on articles on my watch list, they'll be taken care of as they deserve. If, on the other hand, they are substantive, well cited and written clearly, they'll stay. It would seem to be a no brainer; your POV and proofs reach a wider audience or your hacking/spoofing/turd-laying shows your inner child.
Your sarcasm doesn't work so well when you don't read closely. A article that is modified, (minus the games you say you play, but can't show us and don't show up in any significant amount) with incorrect information is only incorrect for that piece of information, not the whole article. And is usually fixed fairly quickly. As opposed to errors in print. Easy enough to check when changes were made and what the change was. And the comment was about good editors v bad editors. You know, the kind you say you and your friends are but are unable to prove.
False impressions
April 2, 2008 - 13:14 ET by PopularTechYou are under the false impression that changes I am making are all bad or that the volume and frequency of my changes to the articles I choose are can be easily "watched". You are also under the false impression that every article is frequently and heavily watched. Also when changes are made that are sourced they are much less scrutinized.
Your delusion that everything is fixed quickly or at all only shows you naive and utter ignorance of Wikipedia.
You would think something would be easy to check except when the change was made 50 edits back. Subtle changes that look right done over time can make the whole article completely incorrect.
The Singer article is a perfect example of a bogus source (a conspiracy theorest) but left in because a source exists that no one checks.
Like I said pretend it does not happen and Wikipedia is really accurate, living in fantasy land may be good for you.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
fart in a windstorm part 5
April 2, 2008 - 13:49 ET by Giles Winterbourne"...false impression that changes I am making are all bad.." . We can read your previous comments about you and your friends' changes.
"...bogus source (a conspiracy theorest)..." Example? I thought you said you always cite......
Looking through the preference choices for watchlists might clear up some misconceptions.
"Also(sb Also,) when changes are made that are sourced they are much less scrutinized." Not really, the quality of the source is important. As is how quotes are selectively mined or explicated. It might be an invalid assumption in some cases, but your HS teachers would have explained that. And some Middle School ones.
"..only shows you (sic) naive and utter ignorance of Wikipedia..." Assumptions and over generalizing tend to be weak forms of argument.
"..change was made 50 edits back." If it was an error, and you want to have a positive effect, fix it. It isn't a matter of watching the history, just close enough reading to discern the problem. Otherwise, perhaps it has withstood the test of time and what is percieved as an error isn't.
Source evaluation
April 3, 2008 - 02:16 ET by UnsaneYour blind faith in Wikipedia surprises me not at all. You have demonstrated over and over again on this board that you simply do not critically think, and that you don't want to be bothered to do such a thing.
An important part of critical thinking is the ability to evaluate sources of information. You have shown time and time again here on NB how much lip service you pay to that simple concept (although sadly this is a pitfall some Rightists here are not immune to).
Ultimately, as I cannot evaluate Wikipedia as a source, I won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. If I brought anything in from Wikipedia into any work I produce for an academic setting, I would be laughed right out of academia, and rightfully so. I surely would with ANY student who brought in sources from there into his writing.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
5th grade research
April 3, 2008 - 12:35 ET by Giles WinterbourneAnd way up in the thread, you will notice that I said "Past the 5th grade, most research wouldn't use ANY encyclopedia
extensively. Fine for a starting point to get a handle on basics, but
not necessarily even listed in the Works Cited page." So it makes perfect sense that you'd be ".. laughed right out of academia..." I make sure to note that in research guidelines and requirements for papers.
I think your "..you simply do not critically think.." has more to do with the disconnect conservatives have with thought that doesn't meet their own expected conclusions.
"...as I cannot evaluate Wikipedia as a source..." Evaluation is a part of critical thinking, so perhaps you misspoke here.
As well as in "..brought in sources from there into his writing .." The sources themselves are now suspect?
for Guilt Winterbourne
April 7, 2008 - 02:42 ET by UnsaneI think your "..you simply do not critically think.." has more to do with the disconnect conservatives have with thought that doesn't meet their own expected conclusions. Considering that this sentence comes from a hardened Socialist (No sense in denying that considering your non-global warming posts) who won't read anything that doesn't fit his Socialist echo chamber, this has to be the most hilarious thing I have read.
If you are using Wikipedia as a legitimate source of information, you have severe problems with the concept of critical thinking. Especially in your case, for when you are faced with evidence or research that runs counter to your dogma, you go on a smear campaign, rather than face what is presented to you squarely.
Also, for one that seems to believe that it shouldn't be used beyond fifth grade (I believe it shouldn't be used at all, and I haven't, and won't, just by seeing how it is supposed to work), you seem to be defending it tooth and nail as a tool that adults can and should use.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
'... who won't read
April 7, 2008 - 04:22 ET by Giles Winterbourne'... who won't read anything that doesn't fit his Socialist echo chamber, this has to be the most hilarious thing I have read. ..."
Which explains why I'm reading articles on this site?
"...shouldn't be used beyond fifth grade..." is a misreading. I said no encyclopedia should be cited beyond the 5th grade. WP, EB, EA, NBK, WB, etc., read them for an overview, look at sources and Further Reading to further your own research, but base your writing on that further research.
I don't want to go all English teacher on you, but that middle para starts with one topic, goes into another one, and doesn't attempt to support either one with substantive detail. Also, there seems to be some confusion on who you are talking about - 'socialists' in general, or me in particular. Some interesting ideas, but needs further development and clarity in writing.
"What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the wish to find out, which is the exact opposite." - Bertrand Russell
Wikipedia is a failure used by morons
April 3, 2008 - 03:02 ET by PopularTechGiles you are naive and have no idea how Wikipedia works. I have found a clear coorelation between Global Warming alarmists and naive fools who think Wikipedia is an accurate, reliable source.
I have given you more then enough information to understand how easily it is to destroy a Wikipedia article.
Man you are SLOW and DENSE. In relation to sources - I was refering to how certain tactics used against Wikipedia allow content to be less scrutinized. Sourcing any change will greatly increase the chances of the change staying. Many times they are not even verified word for word only that the source exists. You can easily and intentionally input slight word changes, dates ect... that make the context completely wrong.
You are naive and ignorant on Wikipedia. You are also delusional and a fool to believe what you do but then again you have proven your computer illiteracy over and over.
If I am destroying an article why would I want to have a positive effect? My point was that if you make an incorrect change and then bury it so far back in the history the watch list becomes irrelevant. I have long ago given up on fixing something broken by design. Wikipedia can never be fixed so I enjoy misinforming the fools that rely on it and are dumb enough to believe it is accurate. I hope I did not burst you delusional bubble of a nonexistent utopia.
You wish to believe that everything is watched 24/7 by an expert on the article with a PhD to make corrections that are truthful or remotely accurate. Your cognitive dissonance is clear. To the contrary people with the academic credentials to make the corrections have long given up on arguing with people who do not know what they are talking about such as yourself. Wikipedia is a failure used by morons who cannot researh.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
A group which occasionally includes
April 3, 2008 - 03:46 ET by sarcasmoVarious "morons" of the NB masthead.
JMR
A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.
Wikipedia Sourcing Advice
April 3, 2008 - 08:03 ET by PopularTechTo which I would HIGHLY recommend they never do so but simply use it as a jumping off point (if necessary) and link to the REAL source. If one does not exist from the Wikipedia article then don't trust the information and never quote from the Wikipedia article itself but the original source used.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
Lots of contentions
April 3, 2008 - 13:01 ET by Giles Winterbourne"Sourcing any change will greatly increase the chances of the change
staying. Many times they are not even verified word for word only that
the source exists."
This is at least the second time you've stated that with no supporting evidence. And didn't you say you always cited sources?
And from the beginning of this thread, I stated one shouldn't rely on any encyclopedia (I should have said encyclopic work ) so much of your diatribes and many of your insults are baseless.
"If I am destroying an article why would I want to have a positive effect?" Well, first, you've been spouting off on your hacker 'skilz' yet back off in any proof. In a larger sense one could wonder why you feel it important enough to brag about it. And adding positive changes in your area of expertise would actually show your 'skilz' and qualifications. And possibly help someone move from fencesitter to your POV. Other than some smug satisfaction between you, your friends, and possibly a piece of the hacker and script kiddie communities, what benefit is there in trashing a site?
"My point was that if you make an incorrect change and then bury it so far back in the history the watch list becomes irrelevant." Which is invalid (your point, that is). Sure, a casual reader might miss it; but most users are a bit more critical than that and would verify the information before using it further.
"Haxor Skilz" - get it right
April 3, 2008 - 19:44 ET by PopularTechI have already went over that I am not about to link to any changes I have made to Wikipedia, like I said pretend it cannot be done. My Haxor skilz are unnecessary to edit Wikipedia since a 5-year old can do it.
You can definitely rely on a GOOD encyclopedia like Britannica. It is the ones that are a joke like Wikipedia that you should not rely on.
I feel it is important enough to let people know how much of an unreliable joke Wikipedia is. There are many benefits of destroying Wikipedia articles including the sheer fun of seeing the nonsense repeated as the truth by the less educated.
A more critical reader would not rely on Wikipedia for anything. Which is why I do not use it as a source but rather a jumping off point.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
"Destroying articles"??? How are they restored post-vandalism?
April 3, 2008 - 19:55 ET by tracheostomyI thought wiki could only be added to. . .
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
It's called 'backups',
April 3, 2008 - 19:58 ET by NL207It's called 'backups', periodic content snapshots stored in off-line media which can be used to restore the system in the event of disaster.
Each change
April 7, 2008 - 13:38 ET by Giles WinterbourneEvery change is documented, so much more accurate than 'periodic content snapshots'.
Logged in users can have notifications sent when changes are made.
The history pages provide all users with means to seen when and what changes were made. Tracked by user (or IP address), history of which is also maintained.
"Destroying" Wikipedia Articles
April 3, 2008 - 20:03 ET by PopularTechDestroying as in keeping incorrect information on the front page for an extended period. If you know what you are doing this is relatively easy. Sure the correct information may exits somewhere in the history but the point is to burry it so far back that the amount of time to look through the history becomes impractical. Also don't confuse this with vandalism as the information is added in ways deliberately designed to look correct with "sources".
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
destroy=vandalism
April 4, 2008 - 00:02 ET by Giles Winterbourne" Sure the correct information may exits (sic) somewhere in the history but the point is to burry (sic) it"
But he can't show us any examples.....
Which renders the whole argument moot.
Your 'destroying' is basically vandalism - don't try to put a fine point on it - there isn't a difference.
continued flatulence
Examples? Nope...continued flatulence
April 4, 2008 - 00:09 ET by Giles Winterbourne"There are many benefits of destroying Wikipedia articles including the sheer fun of seeing the nonsense repeated as the truth by the less educated."
Examples? Nope...
'Which is why I do not use it as a source but rather a jumping off point."
Oddly, that was what I said at the beginning - when you were saying not to use it at all.
continued flatulence
GilesW= green house gas ,gas ! your're a gas in a wind storm.
April 4, 2008 - 00:23 ET by upcountrywaterHeres some coold news for ya, SOOT
<gaia/love>SAVVVE The Whales N' Earth; conserve N' recycle !
IranianUranium<sleep>New/Infrastructure/repair?/ROFLMAO
The ir-Relevance of Wikipedia
April 5, 2008 - 01:54 ET by PopularTechSince Google biases their search to Wikipedia it always comes up high in the results and thus it is sometimes quicker to see if they have a link somewhere. Though usually they either don't or have biased links to push a certain POV. If you do click on it, using it as a jumping off point is all it is useful for and many times may stear you in the wrong dirrection wasting time.
continued computer illiteracy
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
"may stear you in the wrong dirrection"
April 5, 2008 - 04:08 ET by Giles Winterbourne"Since Google biases their search to Wikipedia it always comes up high in the results..."
As does Clusty (+ a Wiki tab), Yahoo, MSN, Dogpile,
I don't think you've yet explained how you've determined their resources/cites are biased.
But then, you haven't been able to point to a 'destroyed' article either. Or show that articles are biased or don't provide a range of POV to accomodate all reliable sources.
It seems to boil down to 'information control' where it seems you'd rather follow an egalitarian view, complaining that your view is not shown exclusively, rather than work to help develop a democratic view where all POVs are given space.
(and can you find a liberal gleefully boasting about 'destroying' a Wikipedia article because they don't agree with the WP meme?)
speaking of tools
April 1, 2008 - 15:13 ET by Giles WinterbourneIt wouldn't hurt to review basic Wikipedia policies and abide with them as you write or edit the pieces you find inaccurate or biased. If you look through the discussion pages, these are what ultimately allow or reject edits.
Verifiability: "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source..."
Neutral POV " representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources."
Reliable sources: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy"
Citing sources: "...attribution is required for "direct quotes
and for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged."
The 'librarians hate Wikipedia' comment is a bit off. Past the 5th grade, most research wouldn't use ANY encyclopedia extensively. Fine for a starting point to get a handle on basics, but not necessarily even listed in the Works Cited page.
There certainly was some controversy over its use, especially as it came on-board and started being quoted. But a reading of the literature will see that it was (and is) part of the larger picture of using resources, especially on-line ones, w/o verifying reliability of the source.
A Naive Wikipedia User = A Computer Illiterate
April 1, 2008 - 20:12 ET by PopularTechAHAHAHAHA!!! The first three are controlled by the mob, Wiki Admins and those who edit the page last. Discussions only work if the people want to listen, if they choose not too and enough of them want to change or remove something it gets done. Your utterly naive notion that allowing everyone to edit something results in this best of source of information when NOTHING could be further from the truth.
Everyday computer illiterates such as yourself prove over and over just how clueless you really are. It is really sad.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
I've destroyed articles on Wikipedia
April 1, 2008 - 20:19 ET by PopularTechYou have no idea how bad I and some people I know have destroyed Wikipedia articles. They are now so inaccurate yet "appear" correct with bogus sources, made up information that appears to be sourced, changes made by claims to authority and a volume of IP addresses. We do not for fun and can do it at will. Some of these changes have been there for years now.