'Slut' Walk Feminist Won't Say If She'd Want Daughter To Dress Like One
This column makes a living lambasting Mika Brzezinski for her liberalism. So let's give the Morning Joe co-host credit when she dares deviate from the lefty line.
On today's Morning Joe, Mika persistently questioned Jessica Valenti, a feminist proponent of [their term] "Slut Walks," as to whether she'd want her daughter to dress like one. Valenti, happy to push others out into the streets in skimpy clothes, twice dodged Mika's question, the second time with a particularly lame line.
View video after the jump.
Valenti is the author of a much-read article in last week's Washington Post celebrating the so-called Slutwalks. According to Valenti, women are taking to the streets in minimal garb as a means of "demonstrating to fight the idea that what women wear, what they drink or how they behave can make them a target for rape."
So, asked Mika in essence, do Slutwalks start at home?
MIKA BRZEZINSKI: I just wonder: would you want your daughter to wear those clothes? And why wouldn't you, if the answer's "no"?
Valenti rambled on with a non-answer answer. But Brzezinski brought her back to the question.
BRZEZINSKI: To go into the uncomfortable area of this conversation, would you want your daughter to go into the city at night wearing those clothes? If the answer is "no," why?
Cornered, Valenti ventured the lamest of dodges.
VALENTI: You know, I think I'm going to have to answer that question once she's of that age. I think it's a difficult thing.
That brought derisive laughter from Joe Scarborough and a straight answer from Mika.
JOE SCARBOROUGH: Huh! Once she becomes a teenager? Let me help you with that one.
BRZEZINSKI: My answer is "no," because I don't want her to have unnecessary risk.
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Comments
The Daughter Question
Submitted by Galvanic on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:47am.
Good to see them apply the simple rhetorical question to crazy behavior and principals. It's a simple test. And more often than not, the advocate evades the answer or, every once in a while, is honest enough to admit that he/she wouldn't want a daughter involved.
I think the classic application is the non-notification of parents when an under-aged girl seeks an abortion. It's interesting to see how many supporters of the non-notification policy can't support it in the case of their own daughters.
The Daughter Question: Should the police protect her from rapist
Submitted by Avitar on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 1:57pm.
The Canadian Cop said NO! That is the daughter question. If She Breaks Down driving back from swimming and still in suits do she and her friends deserve to be raped. If your answer is also 'no' please send your daughter's name and picture to NBC they need her for their pedophilia stings they run.
Actually, technically, the
Submitted by ant on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 2:19pm.
Actually, technically, the police are the last line of defense in this scenario. Once the police are called, the assault has most likely already taken place. The real failure that creates female victims of sexual assaults begins with 'bureaucracy', the justice system that releases recidivist predators over and over for whatever reasons, a porous border where the scum of the earth become 'our' problem, and an administration that opens the door for 80,000 additional religious-nuts that believe the koran (spit on it) instructs them to rape any 'infidel slut' that hasn't covered themselves from head to toe. BTW, When you see an overly-sexualized tv commercial selling whatever (saw one for a cable company with two scantily clad women that could barely control their lust) take note of the color of the lustful, slutty, 'gotta-have-it' females portrayed. Always white, I wonder why?
...how come it's never the
Submitted by Mhockey1505 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 8:44am.
...how come it's never the people you actually WANT to see marching through the streets in bras and panties?
I guess everyone needs to feel important...
Mika gets it right.
Submitted by motherbelt on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 8:56am.
It's about unnecessary risk.
Police advise tourists to not flaunt expensive jewelry and watches in some places, as a precaution against robbery; why is a little discretion in dress as a precaution against rape so outrageous?
These women, like the gays who participate in the Folsom Street Fair, just want to flaunt the most outrageous behavior they can, as a thumb in the eye to society, and claim that they have every right to do it without being "judged."
Grow the hell up, the lot of you.
I agree
Submitted by Galvanic on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:49am.
The very name of the event -- Slutwalk -- says it all.
Are you freaking kidding me?
Submitted by Unsane on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:18am.
Really? So a woman's mode of dress is an invitation to rape?
Explain to me what is hot about a diaper or a hospital gown.
Good Holy freaking Shahinshah. I thought that stupidity was dispensed with generations ago...
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
No one is talking about hospital gowns
Submitted by Hoosier Conservative on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:40am.
I agree with motherbelt. No one would let their child walk alone through a strange neighborhood and then say, if they get kidnapped it's the kidnapper's problem. It's one thing to wear a cute dress when you're out on a date, or a bikini when you're at the beach - but it's just plain stupid to dress like a hooker and then act shocked when a guy solicits you.
Besides, not all of us want to see your boobs when we're walking to work.
Go back and reread
Submitted by Unsane on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:58am.
Look, I'm in agreement that a woman can dress modestly and still be hot. Just a simple skirt (for example) - even a long one - goes a LONG way with me. I'm also in agreement that if a woman decides to dress in such a way where her breasts are practically exposed, for example, that she loses the ability to whine about why men are staring at her.
motherbelt is saying that if a woman gets raped, it is due to her provocative dress, and, by extension, its her fault. On that, I vehemently disagree. I implore you to go back and reread motherbelt's post. Looks to me like you had a knee-jerk reaction and didn't thoroughly read motherbelt's post.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
motherbelt didn't say it's her fault
Submitted by Hoosier Conservative on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 11:19am.
I am capable of reading just fine.
It I leave a laptop and a GPS sitting on my dashboard, with windows open and doors unlocked, and then they get stolen - I am still a victim, the court would still put all the blame on the thief. But maybe I'll be more careful next time.
And it's not about the clothing. It's about the context. Two different women can wear the same tank top, with one looking cute and one looking like a prostitute. Guys can tell the difference. Valenti can tell the difference, and she knows it. That's why she called this a "slutwalk" and not a "middle class mother wearing a cute skirt" walk.
Ugh
Submitted by Unsane on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 6:40pm.
I see what the problem is here: you endorse motherbelt's sentence as follows: "why is a little discretion in dress as a precaution against rape so outrageous?"
The problem with your analogy is this: it IS possible to leave out your laptop and GPS on the dashboard with your windows and doors open and unlocked, and many people walk past it, ignoring it. Why? Because the actual number of people who commit crime is very low in reality. You can do that around me and many others reading this, for instance, and they won't touch it, out of the sake of morality.
If what you and motherbelt have to say on this is correct, that when women dress "slutty", that they get what they deserve, INCLUDING rape - well, then, I should have committed this disgusting offense about 50 times today alone. It is hot here in TX right now, and hemlines rise out of practicality as much as anything else. As well as short lengths, and so on. Yet, for some weird reason - I have done no such thing, nor contemplated doing such a thing. Why? (A moral compass, anyone?)
Well, part of the reason is that I have known, and still know, women who have been raped, and it sickens me to no end. Attitudes like this likewise sicken me. It's one thing to give a woman a great deal of visual attention because she has dressed to attain that attention. It's quite another to not have any control over your urges, or, as is more likely, feel the need to go on a power trip, and commit a sexual assault.
If you think that a woman's mode of dress provokes rape, you must have several screws missing. That goes for EVERYBODY.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
You think you have a monopoly on that?
Submitted by Hoosier Conservative on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 7:04pm.
You have moral high ground because you know females who got raped? No Mr, you're not the only one here in that situation. It happened to my sister many years ago.
You keep missing the part where I am continually insisting that there is a difference between wearing a short skirt and dressing like a prostitute. The walk mentioned above was a slut walk, not an intelligent woman in a cute dress walk.
Should parents tell their children not to run away from them in a grocery store, or not? Should parents tell children not to walk home through a strange neighborhood all alone? Aren't we conditioning them that they deserve to get kidnapped?
Huh?
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 11:31am.
No, I have no moral high ground. You think I am claiming moral superiority and that's really your problem, not mine. I AM explaining as to why I feel as I do. If that makesyou think I am claiming moral superiority, again, that's your problem, not mine.
Curious: does your sister know of your sickening attitudes towards rape? (from the looks of things I am shocked you didn't immediately blame her for bringing it on to herself. Sick.) I'm sorry, but it a little girl with a diaper can be a victim of rape, or an elderly woman in a nursing home wearing no more than a hospital gown, there is something else at play here. Rape is about power, not about sex, and thus whatever the victim is wearing is not an issue. Slut walk, cute dress "I'm commuting to work" walk. DOES NOT MATTER. There is no excuse in my bok for rape, and this whole nonsensical idea that a woman can dress modestly to prevent rape cuts no ice with me.
It is disturbing to me to think such attitudes still exist in society. Sounds like to me you are more than ready to recite the shehada and begin your journey down the road to fulfliing the other four pillars...
I'm not missing anything at all. If a woman dressed like a prostitute, it still is not an invitation to rape.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
You never answered my question about kidnapping
Submitted by Hoosier Conservative on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 3:43pm.
I did not make snide comments about the way you talk to women in your life. I'd appreciate you not insinuating things about mine.
I never said every example of rape is a slut on the street. I know better.
Why do we bother telling our loved ones to stay away from strangers, avoid dark alleys, and lock the doors at night. Stop blaming them for being the victims and tell them to do whatever they want.
I am not surprised that so many people other on NB argue with you. It's your way or the highway and anyone who disagrees is either a moron or a terrible person.
Bye.
Sick
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 7:16pm.
So now you are mad at me, throwing a temper tantrum because I have a reinforced steel spine? Because I'm not a linguine-spined individual who you can easily intimidate, you whine about how many other people come here and argue with me?
How pathetic can you be? You can come on here to try to be friends and be loved by everyone here, but that isn't why I on NB. This isn't a social call for me. I am a deeply opinionated prick. Everyone who knows me knows this. I've been here five years and this isn't NB's best kept secret.
I'm not here to be friends or to find buddies. I'm here to tell it how I think it is and how I think it should be, and to vent my frustration - it is so much more satisfying that throwing my television into the nearby pool.
I'm not going to knuckle under other people and I will NEVER kiss your ass. (Or anyone elses.) If that is what you expect of me, look elsewhere. I have too many other things to do and I know too many other people in the real world to worry or care if you won't be my friend. Bruising to your massive ego as it might be, I'm not losing sleep over you.
Insinuate what, exactly? You firmly believe, as motherbelt does, that when a woman is raped, she is asking for it. By extension, you treat the women in your life the exact same way. What you call insinuation is me merely applying logic.
I'm sorry that you are a misogynist, and that your first instinct is to blame the woman each and every time you hear of the commission of rape. You should be honest with the women in your life and explain to them what your thoughts are on this subject. Then they should run the hell away from you, and fast.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
You might go back
Submitted by Tugboat Phil on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 11:36am.
I didn't read your accusation anywhere in mother's post. She isn't saying it will be a cause, but if a woman dresses like a hooker, she shouldn't be surprised if some men treat her like one. And the life of a hooker, apart from the business side, is not one that any woman deserves.
Along the same line of thought, if a college female is drinking all night with college men, and wakes up the next day to discover she'd had sex she didn't remember, it shouldn't be all that surprising. Human behavior hasn't changed in all our existence. Our expectations of it have changed drastically.
Bad things happen to good people. Good people should take all precautions for personal safety in a world where evil is being given more of a free rein.
Missing a sentence?
Submitted by Unsane on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 6:43pm.
"why is a little discretion in dress as a precaution against rape so outrageous?"
Apparently you didn't read hard enough.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Just as a man's dress says something about him...
Submitted by c5then on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 11:02am.
Go into any bar or pub after work and you will probably be able to tell what (if any) impression the men are trying to impart by their clothes. To be a little stereotypical here...guys are pretty simplistic in this respect. If they are trying to promote an image of themselves by their dress, then they assume that women are also.
It's the same thing in an interview for a job. You don't have to like it but that's the way it is. If you are interviewing for a welder's job, you are probably not going to show up in a suit and tie. If you are interviewing for a junior executive position, you probably don't want to show up in a pair of Dickies and work boots.
Madison and Jefferson and Franklin built a Republic - Roberts killed it!
When I walk into a bar and the men are wearing dresses,
Submitted by SickofLibs on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 11:04am.
I immediately turn around and walk out.
;)
I back-out
Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 8:54am.
quickly
I see you don't drink much in
Submitted by NL207 on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 10:41am.
the Scottish Highlands.
No, but I do drink a lot in the Atlantic Highlands
Submitted by SickofLibs on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 10:49am.
After fishing.
Reread the post I was responding to
Submitted by Unsane on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 11:07am.
Once again, as with hoosier conservative above, you are reacting to a COMPLETELY different thing. THIS is the point which I was reacting to from motherbelt's post:
"why is a little discretion in dress as a precaution against rape so outrageous?"
Clearly she believes that the way a woman dresses herself is an invitation to rape. This thinking is 100% crap and should have been dispensed with years ago. At least I thought it was until this morning.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Are you freaking kidding us?
Submitted by Ruths husband Ben on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 11:13am.
Is that what the post said? No. It doesn't say that how a woman dresses is an invitation to get raped, but it is stupid to think that how a woman dresses doesn't have an effect on men with evil intentions. The intentions are still evil, likewise, the women who dress like that in inappropriate locations are still stupid.
Oh, and you are stupid too, for calling someone stupid rather than engage and counter their idea.
No, are YOU freaking kidding ME???
Submitted by Unsane on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 7:03pm.
"why is a little discretion in dress as a precaution against rape so outrageous?" - motherbelt
Hey idiot, when you decide to engage in a personal attack, it really is best to have all your ducks in a row before doing it. Either you cannot read or simply refuse to read, so eager you were to start calling me "stupid". Well, you are looking pretty damn stupid right about now.
And you COMPLETELY missed the counter-argument. Evil does not need a short skirt or a plunging neckline to be enticed. Can you explain to me what is so hot about a little girl in a diaper or a 90-year old woman in a hospital gown? As much as it sickens me to death, females such as those have been victims of rape every bit as much as a woman dressed to go clubbing. If those questions look vaguely familar, I asked them of motherbelt in the post I responded to. Unfortunately for you I cannot draw you a picture to further explain them so you are on your own. Maybe some remedial reading skills classes will help.
I walked past many a young woman today on a colege campus who wore short skirts and very short shorts and they did this not just to get noticed but also to beat the heat. When it gets to about 100 degrees with a 56 degree dewpoint, wearing long pants gets uncomfortable. At least it is for me, and I'm a guy. Oddly, I walked past all these women, some of who were quite attractive, and the thought of forcing myself upon them was nowhere to be found. Why is this?
Answer: the way a woman dresses, in the end, DOES NOT MATTER in regards to rape. You can't plead innocence in court for theft for breaking and entering just because the jewelry shop owner has a display case that faces a main street full of gold and diamond rings. You surely cannot blame the shop owner for advertising his business and wares. I've known, and still know, women who have been rape vicitms and fewer things would give me greater joy than getting hold of the bastards who perpetrated that crime on them. For anyone to sit there and cling to the myth that a woman is asking for it by the way she dresses, and to spout that line of reasoning with perfect nonchalant, disgusts the living hell out of me. I genuinely thought that society had grown past that. Apparently not.
I am in 100% agreement that if a woman is dressing herself to get attention, and she gets it, she shouldn't whine about it. I'd even agree that, as a guy, yes, there is a fine line between "classy yet sexy" and "slutty". Where I am in 1000% disagreement with you, motherbelt, and other posters here, is that dressing modestly is "a precaution against rape". That is an asinine statement, and frankly is every bit as insulting to men as it is (well, at least it should be) to women.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
No, you are an idiot. Why
Submitted by Ruths husband Ben on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 9:13am.
No, you are an idiot. Why don't you do a little research instead of spouting how life is in Fantasy Land. You came out of the gates calling motherbelt an idiot because her statement flamed you. You would have been better off engaging your brain. I know how life is supposed to be, a woman should be able to pass out drunk naked in a Frat House and wake up with her virginity intact. But here is how it really is:
Most nonviolent rapes (the vast majority of reported rapes) are of two varieties: he said-she said or buyers remorse. In other words, most reported rapes are where the guy thinks they have an agreement but finds out later (usually when the cops show up) that she disagrees or she wakes up in the morning in bed with a strange guy and cries rape so her boyfriend, husband, significant other doesn't dump her. Drugs and Alchohol play very highly into this. It is curious that most women who ingest the "date rape drug" do so on purpose. Similarly, Ecstasy is taken voluntarily.
Now, before you flame back with your enlightened opinion, rather than go to some website with an agenda for some stupid quotes, why don't you do a little real research. I don't know what state you are in, but call the local emergency room and ask to speak to the nurse that collects rape kits. Ask her who she calls when a reported rape walks in. Then, call that person or group, probably detectives. Ask them who works the DNA casework on those kits. Now call that crimelab and ask to speak to the senior DNA caseworker.
In case you are wondering, the senior DNA caseworker is probably a woman (most are), and she probably sees hundreds of rape kits a year, and as part of her work, understands the back story behind each one (the circumstances of the case). So, since she is the senior DNA analyst in the lab, she probably has a decade or two experience working and thinking about rapes.
She will be glad to talk to you. Now, ask her if provocative dress by women has any role in the risk that a woman is under with regard to rape.
If you don't believe her, then you are holding to a ideological belief, not a factual one and no one can help you with that.
All of this will take about two hours of your life, but at the end, you will actually know something.
Ruths husband Ben, the true idiot
Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 9:20am.
Can you back up your claim that most reported rapes are where the guy thinks they have an agreement but finds out later (usually when the cops show up) that she disagrees or she wakes up in the morning in bed with a strange guy and cries rape so her boyfriend, husband, significant other doesn't dump her. Because what you're stating is that most rapes are actually consensual sex, and I have a problem with that, so please, back up that claim.
This is another outrageous statement, It is curious that most women who ingest the "date rape drug" do so on purpose. Similarly, Ecstasy is taken voluntarily.
Ecstasy and ruffies are vastly different drugs. What woman takes a ruffie voluntarily? Again, you're essentially claiming a woman isn't really being raped.
In your fantasy land, are women ever really raped? Or are they all just drunk/drugged people with buyer's remorse?
I think any time a woman has
Submitted by Ruths husband Ben on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 10:00am.
I think any time a woman has sex against her will that is rape. But it sometimes helps to define the terms. Violent rapes (what we immediately think of when we hear the word rape, a woman being suddenly and without provocation attacked) are not the majority of reported rapes. There is also incestuous type rapes, i.e., by a family member, a father or brother, uncle, etc. Still a rape, however.
But most of the reported rapes are not of that variety. Most are of the variety I described above. The reason for the courts to exist is to sort them out. A woman does not deserve to be raped because she is high, drunk, or dress "slutty". I am not saying that. But Unsane gave the example of a jewelry store being robbed. Did it deserve to be robbed? No. But jewelry stores are at a higher risk of being robbed because they are full of jewels. I am not excusing the crook, just talking about risk. Risk and responsibility are two different things. Just like a drunk stumbling down a dark alley doesn't deserve to get mugged, risk factors for getting mugged involve drinking and frequenting dark alleys. I think that is true in Fantasy Land, as well, although I don't live there.
As far as your last sentence, I don't think I even said that. If I did, or seemed to, it is because of my inablity to transmit all of my thoughts in a forum like this.
As far as your first statement, yes, I can back it up, but not without losing my privacy. I provided a clear path for anyone to come to the same conclusion (or not), that I have.
What woman takes a ruffie
Submitted by Ruths husband Ben on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 10:06am.
What woman takes a ruffie voluntarily?
Most of them are taken voluntarily, there are probably millions sold illegally every year, the vast majority of cases do not involve rape. Check with the DEA.
Ben
Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 10:07am.
You said it, you prove it. I mean, if you say it you must have a source right?
Again, my source is life
Submitted by Ruths husband Ben on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 10:29am.
Again, my source is life experience, but it must be easy enough to google "ruffies use". Oh, here it is, "Rohypno: "Roofies", ...."
Quote:
In the United States, flunitrazepam is used widely in Texas where it is popular among high school students. Flunitrazepam is reported to be readily available in the Miami area, and epidemiologists from that area have stated that it is South Florida's fastest growing drug problem. Additional reports from Miami indicate that the largest and fastest growing group of flunitrazepam users are high school students who take the drug with alcohol or use it after cocaine ingestion.
Ben
Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 10:09am.
In other words, the proof is someone's word, not any statistical evidence compiled by the FBI or some other such agency? Secondly, what makes you think if I go through all the meandering byways you suggest people will willingly give me the names of the people you talk about?
Reading my paper on a daily basis, I see very few of the type of rapes you seem to feel are common, unless they involve children.
My proof is life experience.
Submitted by Ruths husband Ben on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 10:36am.
My proof is life experience. I can't point to someone else's experience, but I can provide a way to obtain your own.
Meandering? Three phone calls? This conversation is more meandering than that.
Okay, call your local prosecuting attorney's office. Find out how many reported rapes are of the variety I said.
All of the people I recommended contacting, except the Emergency Room nurse are public servants. They will certainly talk to you.
Ben
Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 10:49am.
Fail. You refuse to prove it.
Calling my prosecuting attorney's office doesn't prove anything because I live in a suburban rural county. The answers would vary widely in a large city, farm community, or college town.
Life experience? This is what I hate about Obama. You find a story that fits the agenda and claim it works that way for everyone.
You didn't source anything, you gave me a paragraph with no link. I don't know where it's from or who wrote it.
In my book you're just another blame the victim kind of guy. Do you believe the IMF guy is innocent too? Because they're about to go into the maid's life and rip it apart in his defense.
Bite me. I too live in the
Submitted by Ruths husband Ben on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 11:20am.
Bite me. I too live in the country. So, if your state is like the rest of the states, the rural crime is handled by the highway patrol. One or two labs for the entire state. You are just too lazy to do what I recommend. That's okay, but lazy and stupid is no way to go through life.
If you think that life experience doesn't count as testimony, then you wouldn't have much fun as an attorney.
I gave you enough to find it in less than a minute, I used google search, gave you the terms of the search, and the first few words of the result. And then a quote from that result. Again, you want me to spoon feed you?
And finally, and for the last time, I am not a blame the victim kind of guy. But there is a difference between risk and responsibility. Because a certain behavior increases your risk of a consequence, if you do not want the consequence, modify your behavior. I can't get much clearer than that. You are like one of my kids who told me "People were before cars" cause he thought he could cross the street and if someone hit him it would be the driver's fault. Maybe, but it wouldn't be the driver lying in the morgue.
As far as the IMF guy goes, yes, I think he is guilty. But that is an opinion based on what I read, not on the facts of the case. The defense in free countries have the right to put on a vigorous defense, in fact, in the US, the Constitution requires it. You have a right to face your accuser. In the case of rape, it often isn't pretty, and I hate it too. I have a dear friend who was savaged by a defense attorney because her step-father was accused of raping her (and he did). He walked and she carries the scars to this day, twenty years later. But again, this is the real world, not some fantasy world.
Ben
Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 11:46am.
Such a gentleman you using the term "bite me". I'm so not impressed.
It's not up to me to prove you right, it's up to you. YOU made claims you refuse to back up. You fail.
As far as life experience, can a prosecutor say, "In my experience a lot of black men steal, so this guy is guilty"? No. Facts are required to be put into evidence.
My concern with your ruffie claim is that if my daughter were ever ruffied and attacked, some idiot like you would say she took the drug herself because lots of people do, so it's her fault.
And you are blaming the victim, unless she's raped by a stranger in a dark alley. If it's someone who ruffied her, well, probably it's her fault according to you. If it's a date rape, she must have changed her mind in the morning.
Lazy and stupid? Add classless and you've described yourself.
Venting further
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 11:52am.
In Ben's world, if a rape happens, you should call the police. To Ben, the cops should ask the rapist questions like "Was she good?" The cops should also take the woman into custody, where she will go to court and face a maximum sentence of, oh, say, 5 years in prison and maybe 500 lashes in the town square, in public. Why? Because, you see, in Ben's world, the woman asked for it.
Not to mention that any of Ben's female relatives, if they are victims of this sickening crime, are subject to severe beatings by Ben, punctuated by him yelling "YOU BITCH! YOU SLUT! YOU WHORE! YOU DESERVE IT!!!" He'll probably beat her to a pulp, for, after all, she got what she deserved.
I'm sorry, but attitudes like that seriously piss me off. Ben's no gentleman, not by a long shot.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Your whole post is nothing
Submitted by Ruths husband Ben on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:02pm.
Your whole post is nothing but your own pathetic projection. Look up "projection". No wait, you are too stupid for that.
Congratulations. You lose.
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 7:19pm.
You officially lost the argument. I applied your own logic to you, and since you don't have a counter-argument, you whine "projection".
Keep calling me stupid. You clearly hate women and I have NO DOUBT if you had your way the rape victim would go to the slam. As you clearly refuse to assign any blame whatsoever to men for rape.
Hmmmm...I wounder if that could be from your guilty conscious...
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Never claimed to be a
Submitted by Ruths husband Ben on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 12:51pm.
Never claimed to be a gentleman, so I don't know where that is coming from. Perhaps I was too aggressive in my insult. I take it that if you insult me, then it is fair for me to insult back? I also took your first quote header "Ruths husband Ben, the true idiot" and the line in it, "in your fantasy..." to be an insult. Perhaps I read too much into that? I lumped you in with Unsane, and that, in retrospect may have been a mistake.
My ruffie claim does not imply that I would say that, should she be ruffied and raped. It was just a statement of fact. Ruffies are widely used by drug users. That is a fact. Whether I claim it or not, it is still a fact.
And finally, I am not blaming the victim. I am saying that there are things that reasonable people can do to avoid being a victim. If a person does not do those reasonable things, do they change from being a victim? No, that is illogical.
I keep my door locked to try and stop criminals from entering my house. It is still illegal to enter my house uninvited even if I don't lock my doors (and it might get you shot). You would take my statement, "if someone wants to reduce the risk of home invasion, they should keep their doors locked" and twist it to say, "Ben, you are saying that someone who doesn't lock their doors is asking for their house to be invaded." And I never said that.
In the same way, there are things that women can do to reduce the risk of being raped. These things include not getting drunk with a bunch of strangers, not taking drugs, being aware of her environment, and yes, not dressing provocatively in an uncontrolled environment.
What I am not saying, and have never said, is that if a woman gets drunk with a bunch of strangers, takes drugs, or dresses like a slut, she deserves to be raped, or is asking to be raped, or anything like that.
Ben
Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 1:18pm.
My idiot comment was in reaction to you calling Unsane and idiot. I didn't think that was necessary. And although I think of all men as gentlemen until proven wrong, I won't think that of you again. You also referred to Unsane as living in fantasy land. But you said Most nonviolent rapes (the vast majority of reported rapes) are of two varieties: he said-she said or buyers remorse. In other words, most reported rapes are where the guy thinks they have an agreement but finds out later (usually when the cops show up) that she disagrees or she wakes up in the morning in bed with a strange guy and cries rape so her boyfriend, husband, significant other doesn't dump her. You refuse to back it up, and insist I'm supposed to prove you right. Not how it works here, you make an assertion, you have to prove it.
Again, this comment, It is curious that most women who ingest the "date rape drug" do so on purpose. Similarly, Ecstasy is taken voluntarily,
implies that most women raped under ruffie have taken it voluntarily. Where does that come from? Having teenagers I try to keep on drug trends so I know what to look out for. I haven't seen anything about ruffie's being used by women for fun. And you compare it to Ecstasy, which is a "recreational" drug. You're equating two drugs that I have never heard equalized before. And you get all snippy when asked to back up what you say. Slink or link. I'm not doing your dirty work.
But here, I don't see ruffie's on here. http://listverse.com/2009/08/12/top-10-most-popular-recreational-drugs/
This is how it's done by the way.
My idiot comment was in
Submitted by Ruths husband Ben on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 2:02pm.
My idiot comment was in reaction to you calling Unsane and idiot. I didn't think that was necessary.
- Mine was in response to Unsane attacking and insulting Motherbelt. I did think it was necessary and he's a big boy and can take care of himself, so you injected yourself into the situation unnecessarily.
And although I think of all men as gentlemen until proven wrong, I won't think that of you again.
-So?
You also referred to Unsane as living in fantasy land. But you said Most nonviolent rapes (the vast majority of reported rapes) are of two varieties: he said-she said or buyers remorse. In other words, most reported rapes are where the guy thinks they have an agreement but finds out later (usually when the cops show up) that she disagrees or she wakes up in the morning in bed with a strange guy and cries rape so her boyfriend, husband, significant other doesn't dump her. You refuse to back it up, and insist I'm supposed to prove you right. Not how it works here, you make an assertion, you have to prove it.
- Excuse me? You want to show me the rule book that says that on this forum, if I make an assertion, I have to prove it? I made an assertion based, as I said, on my experience. That is all the logical proof I need. If you don't accept my testimony, fine, but you don't get to make up the rules on how I discuss ideas. Sorry.
Again, this comment, It is curious that most women who ingest the "date rape drug" do so on purpose. Similarly, Ecstasy is taken voluntarily,
implies that most women raped under ruffie have taken it voluntarily. Where does that come from? Having teenagers I try to keep on drug trends so I know what to look out for. I haven't seen anything about ruffie's being used by women for fun. And you compare it to Ecstasy, which is a "recreational" drug. You're equating two drugs that I have never heard equalized before. And you get all snippy when asked to back up what you say. Slink or link. I'm not doing your dirty work.
- Again, I gave you a link, I didn't give it the way you want to see it, but so what? Was the link valid, authoritative, and supportive of my premise? Yes. But it wasn't tied up in a nice pink ribbon for you and so, you won't accept it. Okay.
But here, I don't see ruffie's on here. http://listverse.com/2009/08/12/top-10-most-popular-recreational-drugs/
-So, if a drug isn't in the top ten, no one uses it for recreational purposes? If you would go to the link I provided, you would see that the statement I quoted was a cut and paste. It says it is growing in popularity in Texas and Florida. Almost any recreational use would vastly eclipse the use as a date rape drug, wouldn't it?
This is how it's done by the way.
-By you.
Ben
Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 2:13pm.
Wow, interact socially much? I highly doubt it. YOU started the name calling, not Unsane.
It's very common here to expect people to link when they are asserting that something is a FACT, not an opinion.
You never did answer how a lawyer can use his "experience" in a court of law, instead of facts and evidence.
So you have done nothing but expose yourself as someone who refuses to back up his arguments, and blames women if they are not stranger raped.
Good Holy freaking
Submitted by Ruths husband Ben on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 2:22pm.
Good Holy freaking Shahinshah. I thought that stupidity was dispensed with generations ago...
-That was Unsane calling Motherbelt stupid. I responded, calling him stupid. He responded, calling me an idiot, and we were on. So, HE started the name calling.
- Common does not imply required, does it?
I never said a lawyer uses his experience in a court of law instead of facts, so I don't have to answer for that. That is you reading something into my statements that weren't there. However, I did say that experience is a valid testimony. The lawyers don't get to testify, the witnesses do. And the first thing an expert witness does is testify to the life experience, that qualifies them to be an expert witness, it may be an advanced degree, years working in a field, etc., anything that speaks to that persons "expertise".
And you keep saying that I blame women if they are not stranger raped and that is a misrepresentation by you. That exposes you, not me.
Ben
Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 3:13pm.
Wow, so Unsane calling a statement stupid equates to you calling him and idiot?
Here's a little help for you, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JVc9LJqpnI In this video YOU are the ref.
LOL Keep trying.
That's all you got? We're
Submitted by Ruths husband Ben on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 3:17pm.
That's all you got? We're done then. Thanks for the discussion.
Ben
Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 4:01pm.
I have plenty. You've got unsubstantiated assertions, and flip flops on what you say. Really, you are funny after awhile.
Unbelievable
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 11:45am.
Here's my enlightened opinion, asshole: you believe that at all times, if a woman is raped, it's the woman's fault. You doubtless also believe that it is the WOMAN who should be punished for it, not the man. I think you should recite the shehada and move some place more your speed, like Iran or Saudi Arabia, where you will find many other men who agree with you.
I have dealt with this topic more than you can imagine. In the military, I have had to attend countless briefings on the topic and have had to work with Sexual Assault Response Coordinators over and over again on this issue. Now, to shut people like hoosier conservative up, no, I am not claiming moral superiority.
I hate to break it to you, but a date is not an invitation to sex. Nor is drug or alcohol use. You fervently both are, and from your sickening post, you truly, deeply believe women get what they deserve. I, being part of civilized society, having a mother and two sisters, countless female friends and acquaintances - some of whom were victims of rape - take a very dim view of attitudes such as yours.
I've been on dates, and while I am no loser and thus avoid drugs, I have gotten seriously bombed on occasion. I do enjoy adult beverages. I also love this time of year because the hemlines rise. Yet, I have not committed one rape, and won't consider it, and will gladly physicially remove the testicles of any man in my presence who has done it or is thinking of it. Why?
If you are unwilling to move permanently to some portion of the dar al-Islam, just crawl back under whatever rock you emerged from and stay there.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Unsane
Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 11:51am.
check your pm's. I'm heading out to do errands, catch you later.
You know, you are just too
Submitted by Ruths husband Ben on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 11:59am.
You know, you are just too stupid to believe.
"Here's my enlightened opinion, asshole: you believe that at all times, if a woman is raped, it's the woman's fault. You doubtless also believe that it is the WOMAN who should be punished for it, not the man."
You obviously didn't read what I said, or you really are that dumb. I never said, nor did the original poster (motherbelt) that is was the woman's fault. She and I have consistently said that is about risk not responsibility. The only thing you keep adding is a different insult, but no new insight. That's because you have none.
I don't know if you have a daughter, or will in the future. But when you do, why don't you advise her to dress like a slut, after all, she has the right to do that and it would be criminal for someone to rape her is she does. And I agree, she has the right to do that and it would be a crime. But she might have to endure being raped. To reduce that risk, we teach our children to modify their behavior, i.e., not dress like a slut.
Now, unless you have a new thought to share, I am through with this thread. I have participated in it (including insulting you back) far too long. I don't normally do that, but you pissed me off the way you attacked motherbelt. Now, she is a big girl and can undoubtedly take care of herself. But I like her, and I despise people who post like you do, i.e., insult first and ask questions later.
So, if you have a final parting insult, maybe a name you haven't called me yet, feel free. I will give you the last smear.
You have smeared yourself
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 7:32pm.
I figured out the reason why you blame women for rape: you absolute failure to take responsibility for anything.
You FAIL to read simple sentences like: "why is a little discretion in dress as a precaution against rape so outrageous?" Here, motherbelt indicates she sees a woman's mode of dress as an invitation to rape. You clearly agree with her, refusing to assign the blame on the animal who commits the rape. Guess who you attack for your failure/refusal to read? ME! YOUR reading problems are your OWN.
And here you are, whining about "name-calling". Hey, you were first out of the gate, calling me "stupid" and an "idiot". Why, because I am civilized and you aren't? Anyways, I fired back. Your ability to whine about how poorly I am treating you was lost once you decided to open up with your own elementary school behavior. Don't whine because you can't take what you dish out.
When called upon to back your claims, you refuse, just expecting us to accept it all as gospel. Your word is not the Holy Writ, especially after a day like today when you revealed yourself to be nothing more than a petulant little boy.
Come back here when you learn what "personal responsibility" is, when you learn to stop arguing like a Leftist ("WAAAAHHHHHH!!!! You're picking on me! You're projecting!"), when you learn to read, when you learn to treat women with respect, and above all, when you wish to join the rest of us in civilization. Until then, find the rock you crawled out from under, and stay there. I so hope that you have no female relatives, for THEIR sake.
One more thing: why should I smear you when you have done such a stellar job at smearing yourself?
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Explanation required
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 06/14/2011 - 8:39am.
Please explain how this woman had "buyer's remorse" or where she got her "roofies" from. Last I checked a 77 year old woman can dress like a 27 year old hottie, but she's still 77.
Doubtless you assign blame in this instance to the 77 year old victim.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
~The way she took her teeth out
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Tue, 06/14/2011 - 9:02am.
was suggestive.
Can feminists get any more ridiculous?
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 8:56am.
First of all, expecting women to dress with a certain amount of modesty isn't wrong. The fact is, women dress provocatively to be noticed. It's b.s. for them to dress this way and then cry when about when they are noticed. Prudence dictates that we should avoid sending a message to criminals by the way we dress or behave. Is there now going to be a backlash against cops giving crime tips like under a street light or be sure to lock your car? No, because we should be taught to behave in ways that won't make us a victim.
I've also heard the "slutwalk" is to "take back the word slut". The sheer stupidity. Those women can have the word. I don't want it.
They're going to take back
Submitted by motherbelt on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:00am.
They're going to take back the word slut????
What do they intend to do? Turn it into a term of empowerment?? Something to be proud of??
What's next: Slut pride week?
No, MB.
Submitted by Newsbubba on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:43am.
I think they want to "take back the word 'slut' " so they can use it to describe conservative women like Laura Ingraham and Sarah Palin.
As for my daughter dressing like a slut, not only no but HELL NO! She dresses very respectably and always wears something that makes it easy to conceal her Lady Smith 38. The purse with the pocket in the middle works especially well!
Bubba
Submitted by Tugboat Phil on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 11:40am.
We got our daughter a small S&W .357, 5 shot, for Christmas several years ago. She named it "Bradley." Whenever she's calling and tells us she's taking a trip somewhere, I ask, "Is Bradley going?" That way we can talk about it with anyone else around and they don't know she's packing. Surprise being the better half of a confrontation.
She had the opportunity to dress however she wanted, but with her upbringing she has maintained a very good sense of fashion without wanting to go "slut." She works in the court system around here and whenever I see her in her "work" clothes, I am always impressed.
Good on you, Phil.
Submitted by Newsbubba on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 12:58pm.
How daughters act when they are grown is a reflection of their parents.
Be proud.
Just another fine example...
Submitted by JohnMcGrew on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:04am.
...of how liberals confuse the concept of "freedom" as in "living in a free society" with "freedom" as in "freedom from consequences of your actions".
Women are certainly free to dress and act that way. But it also means that they have to accept the possible consequences of doing so.
thank you
Submitted by wizardjr on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 5:07pm.
clearly stated
"slut walk" "Gai pride"
Submitted by lrgon on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:06am.
Where's the distinction?
I thought it was called
Submitted by USA4freedom on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:18am.
I thought it was called Halloween.
Ronald Reagan, 1962: I did not leave the Democratic party, the party left me.
Insert: your name, 2008, the Republican party.
Actually ...
Submitted by Newsbubba on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:48am.
... it's called Fantasy Fest. It's the last week in October in Key West, The Conch Republic!
Not only do they dress like sluts; they undress like sluts. It's one hell of a party!
Newsbubba
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:06am.
My parents used to go to Key West. I can only assume during Fantasy Fest my strict, religious, Catholic mother didn't leave her condo.
Right, Rad.
Submitted by Newsbubba on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 12:59pm.
Me either. I only go out during Fantasy Fest to "read the articles."
I like to go out everyday just to see if it is as disgusting as it was the day before!
deleat.
Submitted by USA4freedom on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:21am.
deleat.
Ronald Reagan, 1962: I did not leave the Democratic party, the party left me.
Insert: your name, 2008, the Republican party.
About the ""....
Submitted by Ashrak on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:18am.
Mika needs a Pizza Delivery on that one.
She admits that she blames a woman for being raped - based on how she is dressed. This is the "risk" she refers to.
See, that is the thing about progressive-ism. It seeps out no matter how much someone tries to hide it. Pure foolishness - an example of how backward the progressive mentality really is.
I don't want my daughter dressing like a "slut", nor do I want her to be one. My path, is and will continue to be, teaching her what a "slut" is and why she is better than that. This in hopes that when she is of age to make her own decisions absent my input, she will have had instilled a moral compass that will aid her in making quality and beneficial decisions.
Good luck with that.
Submitted by mandrake on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 11:27am.
Seriously, peer influence trumps parental guidance anytime. You have a daughter? I have 3. Ages 22, 24 and 26.I tried the "tough love" approach and I also sent them to private catholic schools. None of it worked..they all have tattoos and body piercings and wear clothes that make me cringe..
Mine dont,
Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 9:00am.
Wonder why that is?
I don't get this
Submitted by Dave81 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:33am.
How does dressing up as a slut and parading down the street help women everywhere? Doesn't it just kind of reinforce the idea that women are just sex objects to be gawked at and shouldn't be taken seriously? Nice job ladies...
D81 – I’m with you there…
Submitted by Grumpy in Arizona on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:49am.
Can’t understand how this “slut-walk” helps anyone but the jerks who thought it up.
It’s sort of like promoting proper tooth care by chewing on rocks.
- Grump
"Slut Walks" Help The Nuns Who Don't Live With Their Brothers
Submitted by Avitar on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 1:44pm.
People really have to get a grip that when a Muslim says whore he means you. Or the Committees for the Promotion of Virtue and the Suppression of Vice that Saudi Arabia fund across the world will come around and kill him if he does not change his mind fast. That is the first commandment of Islam, no backsliding. Mohammad did away with the freedom and equality of Sparta and the Roman Republic and Muslims aren't going to let freedom and equality regrow if they can help it.
I hear they're gonna have one
Submitted by ant on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 12:58pm.
I hear they're gonna have one in Tahir Square in Egypt. Wonder how that'll go. (sarc)
Slutty Sharks
Submitted by Chris Norman on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:45am.
Feminists who identify with sluts. What's next, lesbians seeking men? I'd say that feminism has jumped the shark with this ridiculous "crusade", but so many sharks have been jumped in the past and there are rows of them still out there just waiting to be jumped.
What is the difference
Submitted by ricklail on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:20am.
What is the difference between a slut and a trashy woman? While you think it over enjoy Trashy Women by Confederate Railroad.
One of my favorite, Rick!
Submitted by Newsbubba on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 2:52pm.
I love this song.
I also love Dollie Parton's comment when asked by a network talk show host why she dressed so "cheap."
Dollie's answer was, "Do you have any idea how much it costs to look this cheap?"
Classis.
How awfull. If I was a single
Submitted by jessieH on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:33am.
How awfull. If I was a single man, I would demand names-& phone numbers, of every one of them!
Really? Not me. Show me a barn stall with a phone.
Submitted by SickofLibs on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 11:10am.
Gak.
Mika Slut and Whore
Submitted by Avitar on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 1:32pm.
I went to college in the '70's at a school that taught crash courses in English to Middle-eastern and far Eastern language speakers. Those Muslim men considered Donna Reed to have dressed like a whore. They thought Betty Ford should be stoned to death. They were always asking "why do you let your women walk around like whores?" By which they meant walking where they wanted without male guards.
If you are old enough to remember 1969 and 1970 the see through and no bra look was in fashion then and make today's street walkers look like Nuns. Film of those years from my high School, where they actually shot the streakers in 1974, would carry an 'R' rating today from the MPAA. Towns that were not that uptight had even more on day to day display back forty years ago. We have lost some of our freedom and Mika is the reason even if you consider freedom to walk around in immodest dress to be unnecessary its loss is a milestone on The Road to Serfdom.
No matter how modest a woman dresses the will be some Baptist preacher somewhere who will claim her dress is immodest. That is where his money is. There will be Muslims who want to torture her for it. Unless a woman is in a guarded cage she is going to offend some people. The woman sponsoring the "Slut Walk" is right. The Duty of the Cop is to keep a lid on the objectors and not to regulate the way women or men dress. You should have known when Mika came out for this Freedom Loving Americans should be against it.
Is the cop trying to regulate
Submitted by redfish on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 7:27pm.
Is the cop trying to regulate how men or women dress?
What does the slutwalk...
Submitted by NJRightWinger12 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 5:42pm.
Have to do with politics?
If we're talking about serial
Submitted by redfish on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 8:02pm.
If we're talking about serial rape, how a woman dresses probably won't matter ... there are rapists with all different fetishes and you'll find those who target women who are dressed conservatively, just because they have some perverse interest in doing that.
The majority of rape cases don't involve serial rapists though; they involve someone the woman knows, and most of those are what you'd call date rape. Well, how a woman dresses with a date is not to blame if she's raped, but women who choose to dress certain ways are trying to attract the wrong type of guys -- guys who value how they look over who they are.
So women try to attract men who are assholes, then act surprised when they find out they're assholes.
There's nothing wrong with pointing out there's an unhealthy dating culture. It goes beyond dress, to looking to pick up dates in bars, and at parties where there's a lot of drinking and drugs, and so on..
The message to your daughter would be this : don't get involved in that; don't think sex is the most important thing in a relationship; don't try to attract assholes who don't respect you for who you are.
That's not a bad message -- that empowers women.
~Interesting thread
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 2:31pm.
I bet every prisoner who's ever been raped wished his neon orange jumpsuit had been a little less provocative.
showers
Submitted by Agnostic on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 2:36pm.
I thought it was because of the skimpy towels in the showers!
The hoosier/Ben approach
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 06/07/2011 - 7:32pm.
That's the hoosier conservative/Ruths husband Ben's approach to a T!
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)