'Here We Place Our Hands Over Our Hearts.' Since When, Mr. President?
Concluding his remarks at the service in Tucson this evening for the victims of the recent shootings, Pres. Obama proclaimed: "here on this earth, we place our hands over our hearts."
Which made me wonder: since when, Pres. Obama? Weren't you the man who ostentatiously declined, during the presidential campaign, to put your hand on your heart during the National Anthem while everyone else on the stage was doing so?
View video after the jump.
Will the MSM note the glaring discrepancy between Pres. Obama's current words and recent deeds?
Note: So Pres. Obama goes out of his way to talk of hand over heart. And his two cabinet officers preceding him at the podium quote the Bible at length, with Eric Holder mentioning Jesus. Some repositioning toward the traditional middle with 2012 in mind?
- Mark Finkelstein's blog
- Login to post comments
Comments
I stll say that picture
Submitted by Chris Norman on Wed, 01/12/2011 - 11:05pm.
I stll say that picture reminds me of the AT&T Wireless ads for "more bars in more places"...
LOL. More bars in more
Submitted by Mark Finkelstein on Wed, 01/12/2011 - 11:06pm.
LOL. More bars in more places: Teddy Kennedy would have been the perfect spokesman ;-)
Kennedy: "What? What kind of
Submitted by Chris Norman on Wed, 01/12/2011 - 11:17pm.
Kennedy: "What? What kind of bawrs are we talking about heah?". :)
Gotta correct you Chris...
Submitted by motherbelt on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 9:24am.
That would be "moah baahs" in Bostonese.
I'm more experienced at the
Submitted by Chris Norman on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 9:40am.
I'm more experienced at the Southern vernacular.
That is him displaying that
Submitted by Barack_must_go..... on Wed, 01/12/2011 - 11:19pm.
That is him displaying that trademark Obama Kenyen cool........as a cucumber.
Barack_Must_Go.....
Be healed!
Submitted by MidAmerica on Wed, 01/12/2011 - 11:29pm.
Has he lifted our burden?
Has he shown us the way?
Is there a new dawn a breakin'?
Just curious, cause I took a long hot bath and I'm wonderin' if I missed any miracles
But they got free T-shirts!!
Submitted by Newsbubba on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 9:27am.
YEA.
Clinton
Submitted by grammajane on Wed, 01/12/2011 - 11:33pm.
All you from the LSM is how Clinton "brought " the country back together after th OK bombing. Nary a word about Bush after the country's worst terrorist attack and how Bush and Laura were such great supporters and spoke such loving and caring words. The bias is becoming sicker on a daily basis
yes, and even on Fox tonight...
Submitted by ConservativeHokie on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:45am.
I was watching the coverage on the Fox broadcast network...Shepard Smith, at the end:
"As we did after the bombing in Oklahoma City...after the massacre at Columbine...and now after the tragedy in Tuscon...a President leads us in a night of mourning."
NOT A WORD about 9/11, or the Virginia Tech shootings in 2007...and the wonderful job Bush did leading us through those tragedies. I know Shep is a lib...but I was still surprised at such a blatant omission - especially regarding 9/11. That was totally out of line, especially for Fox. I expect better from them.
Petty Attack
Submitted by Superman on Wed, 01/12/2011 - 11:33pm.
Come on now. This is a petty attack against Obama. And Obama did not ostentatiously decline to put his hand over his heart. He didn't put his hand over his heart because you don't have to put your hand over your heart for the National Anthem. You put your hand over your heart for the Pledge of Allegiance.
During rendition of the
Submitted by Mark Finkelstein on Wed, 01/12/2011 - 11:36pm.
During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. -- United States Code, Title 36, Chapter 10, Sec. 171
Ostentatiously declined? As
Submitted by Jer on Wed, 01/12/2011 - 11:59pm.
Ostentatiously declined? As in "Senator Obama, will you please place your hand over your heart during the playing of the National Anthem?"
"Absolutely not. I refuse."
I witness tens of thousands of similar 'ostentatious declinations' every time I attend a major sporting event. There are also photos of George Bush with his hand placed over the general vicinity of his large intestine during the National Anthem.
But, yes, Obama should have had his hand over his heart. It was a gaffe, and a lesson in protocol which I am sure he has learned. Now, really, hasn't this issue been sufficiently flogged at this point?
Jer
Jer, At the risk of
Submitted by Chris Norman on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:05am.
Jer,
At the risk of restarting our former ongoing war of words, once again, you seem not to quarrel with the main conclusions per se, you just soften the blame and object to some of the words used.
Chris...
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:18am.
Just trying to contribute in some small way to ratcheting down the tone of the rhetoric even though the underlying issue is factually based. :-)
And I do believe "ostentatiously declined" is a bit of an overstatement. Don't you?
Jer
Jer,
Submitted by Chris Norman on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:36am.
Well, in the picture, it's kind of hard not to notice - which does make it "ostentatious" in a way, depending on how you want to view it. It's a choice of words that can connote a positive or negative spin - you know, the media certainly makes those choices in almost every political story they report. If you couple that with Obama's osten- er - prominent - announcement, at one point, that he saw no need to wear a flag pin in his lapel, it did sort of suggest the beginnings of a pattern...
Chris...
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:54am.
I believe if he had been standing in view of Richardson and Hillary he would have followed suit and also placed his hand over his heart. Not seeing them, he reacted as he said he normally had in the past by standing and singing the words but not necessarily covering his heart. However, there are a number of photos of his covering his heart while reciting the Pledge in the Senate.
Attacking his patriotism based on these incidents is unfair but unsurprising.
All--except photos of Obama and Pledge--just my opinion, of course.
Jer
You "believe" he would have
Submitted by Chris Norman on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 1:11am.
You "believe" he would have covered his heart - if his position in line had been different? Yikes, that's just about as rickety as you think Mark's choice of "ostentatious" was. :)
Because it's my OPINION, Chris...
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 1:20am.
I think it is a logical and common sensical one, however. If a candidate noticed that his or her fellow candidates were all placing their hands over their hearts during the Anthem, he or she would most likely do so, too.
On the other hand, I don't understand Mark's description at all.
Jer
mikaorjoepretendingtobjer,
Submitted by Captain Repus on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 1:50am.
mikaorjoepretendingtobjer, you seem never to sleep or run out of facts from the MSDNC College of Obscure Knowledge database in every blog string in this site. But then I could be wrong .. you could simply be an intern.
Rest assured, I get plenty of
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 1:55am.
Rest assured, I get plenty of sleep.
Jer
Jer
Submitted by ant on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:33pm.
That would make Obama a follower then and not a leader. But I sorta already knew that.
IMHO, that picture was one example of the early evidence that the Kenyan shouldn't be elected President.
So, ant...
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 1:25pm.
What was your reaction to Bush's hand position during the playing of the National Anthem? That he had gas?
Jer
Well, considering it's a
Submitted by ant on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 2:19pm.
Well, considering it's a still photo his hand may have been on it's way up or momentarily laxed. I don't know. The difference is, however, it is not a deliberate refusal of the gesture. Then there's always you're Presidential excuse making theory, maybe there were people in front of Bush who had gas and he was just following by example.
Where did they get that
Submitted by Dan The Man 2 on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 7:54pm.
Where did they get that photo, looks shopped to me. The donor ButtDialed is no longer around. Absent of an original photo I deeem this myth busted.
Dan...
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 8:09pm.
Interesting that your standards of authentication are invariably set beyond whatever I have linked, while, curiously, you only source--and then very weakly--maybe one out of fifty of your claims. You've been playing this tiresome game for years. So, again, you may deem what you wish, believe what you wish, reject what you wish...suit yourself. Your approval really doesn't matter to me.
Jer
Jer, if you cant authenticate
Submitted by Dan The Man 2 on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 10:17pm.
Jer, if you cant authenticate the picture just say so. I am not seeking your approval but the autheticity of teh picture. But as always call foul and run away and blame someone other than yourself. Hmm sounds like your hero Obama.
Dan..Apparently you know how the ORIGINAL photo may be obtained
Submitted by Jer on Fri, 01/14/2011 - 11:08am.
Please advise.
Thanks...
Jer
By the way, you have made the claim the pic is photoshopped and to have busted the myth. Perhaps you're right. But I think your counterclaim requires a little more proof than "it looks like to me" and "I deem it" speculation. So let's have it.
The picture is found nowhere
Submitted by Dan The Man 2 on Fri, 01/14/2011 - 2:32pm.
The picture is found nowhere other than your link. If you had looked further than the picture you would have forund it came from some other site no longer in business. If there was a valid picture out there do you think it would not have been used by now? And profusely. Further the mark on the picture indicated it came from a site Pyzam.com and investigating that site there is no such picture. Yet there are the obligatory funny Bush pics.
It took longer to explain it than to investigate it.
Busted Jer.
Dan goes down in flames yet again.
Submitted by Jer on Fri, 01/14/2011 - 5:20pm.
"It took longer to explain it than to investigate it."
Well that's certainly not hard to believe. You've made it rather obvious over the years that "investigation" isn't exactly your strong suit.
If it were, you would have discovered the photo published at numerous websites. There is absolutely no evidence it was photoshopped. One pro-Bush commenter insisted Bush had experienced a mountain bike accident and couldn't raise his hand any higher. But the more common explanation--and the probable valid one--is that Bush was adjusting his suit coat prior to raising and placing his hand over his heart--in which case, he was a little slow on the uptake and in technical breach of the flag code regs. It appears just about everyone else, including the children, had reacted in a more timely fashion.
In any event, snopes has some interesting info on the Obama/flag controversy. Check it out if you can bear devoting a couple of minutes to that "investigation" thing.
Jer
BINGO
Submitted by ckc1227 on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 2:30am.
"Not seeing them, he reacted as he said he normally had in the past"
Thanks for reminding us how inept this man is when it comes to the most basic of American protocols. I mean, seriously, you're defense is he didn't do it because he didn't see Hillary and Bill R. doing it?
Bwaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...........
Yeah, that makes it better, lol.
Not exactly, ckc...
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 2:50am.
I didn't defend it. In fact, I criticized him for the gaffe. [Do you ever read my entire comment, or just stop as soon as you run into a disagreeable word?] I did offer an opinion on--and a possible explanation for--his conduct.
Jer
Its probably because you keep
Submitted by Dan The Man 2 on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 10:32am.
Its probably because you keep defending him doing the indefensible. You would think a man who is a "constitutional scholar" and candidate for President would be respectful and knowledgeable top know you place your hand over your heart. Unless of course he is not a real American.
For the record, Super, I remember Obama...
Submitted by PrairieSky on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:20am.
failing to put his hand over his heart during the Pledge and the Anthem more than once during the campaign...He got nailed for it each time, too...Why didn't he "get it" after the first time?? After all, the guy was running for president.
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction...It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them (our children) to do the same." ~President Ronald Reagan
Prairie...re Obama and the Pledge and the National Anthem...
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:39am.
You may be right about the National Anthem, but I don't think so--at least not after the Iowa event. And I'm 99% sure you're wrong about the Pledge. [But note I'm leaving myself 1% wiggle room.:-)]
Do you think you can link an instance where he didn't cover his heart for the Pledge? You say he got nailed for it each time.
Jer
Jer...There was more than one of report of his not...
Submitted by PrairieSky on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 3:09am.
placing his hand on his heart during the Anthem, in particular the event at Tom Harkin's steak fry, from where the above photo came from. The other couple of reports of Obama's not doing this, if I recall, came from people who were reportedly at an event where the Anthem was sung, and it was observed that Obama didn't place his hand on his heart, as most of the others in attendance did...People apparently mentioned that it seemed odd, especially for someone who was a senator and who was running for president. Unfortunately, there are no photos that I know of or can find documenting this, unlike the one from the Harkin steak fry... I read this online, but can't remember where now...I wish I could (this was more than two years ago) because I'd like to go back and re-read it.
As for the Pledge, I recall reading (I wish I could remember where...I know it was also online somewhere, though) that at a campaign appearance at a school, the kids were saying the Pledge, and some in attendance reported that it was noticed that Obama didn't place his hand on his heart as the kids and others did....Again, some mentioned that it was odd, since he was running for president. I remember this caused a bit of a stir at the time, but his campaign came out and said that no, Obama doesn't have a problem with placing his hand on his heart during the Anthem or the Pledge, it was just that sometimes he did, and (inexplicably) sometimes he didn't. After the photo at the Harkin steak fry came out, and it caused quite a hubub, it appears that Obama learned that this was an issue for folks, and, you are correct, he did seem to place his hand on his heart from then on...No other reports of his not doing it turned up, and the issue dropped.
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction...It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them (our children) to do the same." ~President Ronald Reagan
Yeah, I caught that change of "heart", too...
Submitted by PrairieSky on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:15am.
Miracle of miracles...Maybe the old boy has learned a thing or two since he became president...Too bad he didn't seem able to comprehend this act of respect and patriotism when he was campaigning, and the fact that he didn't get it then was and still is amazing.
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction...It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them (our children) to do the same." ~President Ronald Reagan
Don't care who you are
Submitted by Iron Tigers Vet on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 7:06am.
don't care where you came from. It's a respect thing! If you don't respect the flag, then you don't respect the country and you don't respect the men and women who have died to keep that flag flying so you can have the choices you do.
I'm just glad they changed the ruling to vets are allowed to salute the flag even when not in uniform.
God Bless The USA... Hooorah!!
ITV
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 10:17am.
"If you don't respect the flag, then you don't respect the country and you don't respect the men and women who have died to keep that flag flying so you can have the choices you do."
Actually, it's possible to respect the flag, and not respect the men and women who have died.
And it's also possible to not respect the flag, and respect the men and women who have died.
And, one can respect the flag, but choose not to put one's hand over one's heart.
Or, one can not respect the flag, but choose to put one's hand over one's heart.
Other possibilities exist as well.
And with the snarky
Submitted by Iron Tigers Vet on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 11:03am.
reply you have, you've obviously never strapped up and defended your country or fought for the freedoms you so choose to talk about?
Snarky Tiger
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:19pm.
No, seriously. Soluting the flag according to Hoyle has nothing to do with respect for the country. Conservatives have important points to make, some of which I agree with. But if they whine about using the proper hand signal for the National Anthem -- and cite only Obama as a negative example -- it looks they're just fishing for ways to bash the prez.
Fishing? Nah.
Submitted by jon_torlin on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:32pm.
There are way plenty more reasons to bash "the prez." It's more like shooting fish in a barrel.
-Jon
jon_torlin
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:51pm.
Right. So why dredge up trivia from the 2008 campaign?
Do liberals actually ever
Submitted by ant on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 2:25pm.
Do liberals actually ever read the articles? It was brought up because Obama said it YESTERDAY. Another lesson on American civics from the socialist Kenyan.
He said something
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 2:27pm.
He said something anti-American yesterday? What was it?
WTF??????????? You want me to
Submitted by ant on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 2:37pm.
WTF??????????? You want me to call you on the phone and read the article to you? Nobody said he said something anti-American. The point is, now that he knows he's being televised nationally he has the gall to say; "Around here we put our hands over our hearts!" when clearly his respect for the flag or Pledge and other American institutions is questionable in light of his past actions and deeds. DO - YOU - UNDERSTAND - IT - NOW ? Sheesh! Do you want everyone to type slower so you can catch up?
I wouldn't be surprized if
Submitted by Barack_must_go..... on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 3:58pm.
I wouldn't be surprized if the Ass Clown dragged the kids to church again this Sunday just to keep up appearances.
Boy, those other communists, you know the ones with that hot red head, did a much better job of not blowing their cover, don't you think?
Granted, none of them were supposed to pretend to be the president of the United States, but how hard would it be to put in a little more effort.......Sheesh.
Barack_Must_Go.....
WTF
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 4:00pm.
Right. He didn't actually do anything wrong by saying "Around here we put our hands over our hearts," did he? In fact, what he said was exactly right. (Imagine if instead, he had said "Around here we don't put our hands on our hearts." People would have thought he'd gone crazy.)
So the writer of the article is arguing that the media showed its liberal bias by failing to remind the American people that, three years ago, Barak Obama forgot to put his hand on his heart. I think that's petty crap.
Yutsnark,
Submitted by ant on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 4:09pm.
You're just not getting it, either that, or you are deliberately in denial mode. Obama did not "forget" to put his hand over his heart. Nor does he "forget" to ever say anything positive about this country with the exception of praising how great it is that HE is President of it. The article, BTW, makes no mention of "media bias". You need to work on your reading comprehension.
For ant
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 8:53pm.
Mention of media bias in the article --> "Will the MSM note the glaring discrepancy between Pres. Obama's current words and recent deeds?"
Too true. Damn,you got me! In
Submitted by ant on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 10:14pm.
Too true. Damn,you got me! In my defense I may have been too dazzled by the picture of the brilliant one that I missed the sentence right below.Ha-Ha.
Ant
Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/14/2011 - 8:54pm.
I figured that was the reason :)
Tiger is right. You have
Submitted by bassndude on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:39pm.
Tiger is right. You have never faced the enemy or looked death in the face on the battle field. You have only suckled the tit of freedom provided by those that have. Tell me, Yuck...you collect state checks every month? You sound like the type.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal/troll!!
Block that metaphor
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:49pm.
I have suckled the tit of death, looked freedom in the face, and fallen flat on my butt. A flag is still just a flag.
A flag is representive of
Submitted by bassndude on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:53pm.
A flag is representive of something. That is what flags are for. Always have been, always will be. Nothing you can do to change that. For all of you snarky foolish talk, your displayed ignorance and insufferable self pity, you will not nor can you change that.
So suck away...
Save a SeAL, club a liberal/troll!!
Have you never read S.I.
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 1:04pm.
Have you never read S.I. Hayakawa? The word is not the thing! The flag is not patriotism! The pledge is not loyalty!
"Patriotic societies seem to think that the way to educate school children in a democracy is to stage bigger and better flag-saluting." ~S.I. Hayakawa"
But even if you believe that proper flag-soluting is a sign of patriotism and good character -- Can you honestly say that Obama's non-solute (how many?) years ago is newsworthy today?
Then please explain why humans have had flags for millenia
Submitted by SickofLibs on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 1:25pm.
Just decoration?
Identification, mostly.
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 2:28pm.
Identification, mostly.
Right.
Submitted by SickofLibs on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 4:18pm.
Good thing that American flag is flying over my municipal building, otherwise I might think I was in Albania.
Or perhaps that it was the
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 4:30pm.
Or perhaps that it was the Albanian Embassy.
OK, I found a Brief History of Flags (you can find anything on the Web). Hope this helps:
http://chinese-school.netfirms.com/other-article-flags.html
We don't have any foreign embassies
Submitted by SickofLibs on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 6:08pm.
Just a general store, a saloon and a filling station.
And the Muni building.
No post office?
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 6:59pm.
No post office?
No, but we're hoping to be included in that new zip code thingie
Submitted by SickofLibs on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 7:09pm.
And touch-tone service.
sickoflibs
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 7:26pm.
Zip codes are a real pain. Try to hold out as long as you can.
~Identification?
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 6:30pm.
Blimey.
Your link below is a steaming pile of crap. Knights wore distinctive armor which identified them to their friends far better than a flag which was easily dropped. Or do you suppose they all fought with one hand and held a flagpole with the other?
A flag, or standard, symbolises the group you fight with and the cause you fight for. As a physical representation of an idea or cause that was/is held sacred, the fabric itself was/is treated with reverence. That's why it is held as a deep disgrace if the enemy captures your standard, and a great coup if you capture that of your enemies. Ships in battle lowered their flag to signal surrender, and those determined never to ask for quarter nailed their flag to the mast.
On another note, fighting under a flag carries the responsibility to behave in a manner that brings glory and honor to it. Likewise, behaving in a cowardly, dishonest, or shameful manner brings disgrace to the flag/cause you fight for. Even if the flag is something as seemingly trivial as a scarf.
When you dishonor the flag, you dishonor the country that birthed you and all the soldiers who ever died for her.
Breathes there the man with soul so dead
Who never to himself hath said,
This is my own, my native land!
Whose heart hath ne’er within him burned,
As home his footsteps he hath turned
From wandering on a foreign strand!
If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
For him no minstrel raptures swell;
High though his titles, proud his name,
Boundless his wealth as wish can claim
Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
The wretch, concentred all in self,
Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
And, doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonored , and unsung.
Thanks, Wrathful Banners
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 8:40pm.
Fascinating stuff. Thanks for the history, the quotation, and the link. I shall no longer deem it trivial when a lady wraps her scarf around my arm as I head into battle.
~You're welcome
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 9:40pm.
Wretch.
And S.I. Hayakawa's opinion
Submitted by bassndude on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 1:39pm.
And S.I. Hayakawa's opinion means what to me? And yes, Obama's disrespect of the flag is relevant today and tomorrow. Character, or the lack of, always counts.
Oh, and you can take SI's writings with a grain of salt. He had no loyalty to his home country. He would not have known patriotism if it bit him on the butt.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal/troll!!
bassakawa
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 2:32pm.
Why, and how, should Hayakawa have shown loyalty to Canada after becoming a US citizen?
And should he have maintained his allegiance to Canada even while serving in the U.S. Senate?
He should have stayed in
Submitted by bassndude on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 2:36pm.
He should have stayed in Canada, served in their goverment. Was he truly loyal, he should have tried to slow down that countries slide to socialism and tried to protect the rights of his fellow countrymen.
But he chose to run away, and go where it was easier.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal/troll!!
bassndude
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 4:03pm.
That's it? The same can be said of all our ancestors.
Not hardly Yut. They did not
Submitted by bassndude on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 5:33pm.
Not hardly Yut. They did not leave a democracy for a republic. They had no chance of serving in the Kings Court or representing their people. Most all of the founding fathers were born here in this country. By the 1700's, this country had a good population of those of European descent, and a majority of them were born here, on these shores. Their loyalty was to their country of their birth.
I don't know where you went to school, but if I were you, I would go demand my money back, cause they did not teach you a thing. Your still historically ignorant.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal/troll!!
Bassndude
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 5:56pm.
Look, unless you're a Native American, your ancestors came here from another country, Why didn't Brzezinski stay in Poland to fight Communism?
You think that, for some reason, it's disloyal to relocate from a democracy to a republic? Tell that to Arnold Schwartzenegger.
Do you know much about Hayakawa? He came here from Canada to pursue his education. He became an expert in General Semantics, and wrote "Language in Thought and Action." Eventually he became the President of San Fransisco State University, and made headlines in the sixties by standing up to campus radicals. Later he was elected as a Republican senator, where he worked on making English the official language in the U.S.
Yutsnark, my grandmother on
Submitted by bassndude on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 6:20pm.
Yutsnark, my grandmother on my fathers side was Chiricahua Apache, from the Oklahoma southwest. On my mothers side, we are related to George Reed, ( he would be a great, ect, ect., ect. uncle). He was born here in 1733. Maryland. His father was born in Dublin, but his mother was born here and her side of the family had been here sence the 1500's. Not sure when the first of her side was here. You will find George Reed's name on the Constitution of the United States.
I know Hawakawa studied General Semantics . Tomato, tomaato. Have seen his book, my step father it. I should also mention that neither he, nor I thought much of it. Plato and Homer were both brighter and better writers. He dosen't impress me with his thoughts.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal/troll!!
Plato and Homer were great writers.
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 7:23pm.
So were Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Balzac, and Thomas Mann.
General Semantics has nothing to do with literature, philosophy, or pronunciation ("tomato tomaato"), but I'm sure you know that, since you've read and dismissed Hayakawa.
Sounds like quite a family tree you've got there. Seriously, I'm impressed. But I still don't get your point about immigrants being "disloyal" to their home country.
Maybe it would help if I reminded you that Hiyakawa was thrust into national politics at age 70, having made a name for himself as a no-nonsense college president during turbulent times. He retired after one term in the Senate. He wasn't really a political animal: there's no evidence that he ever had any desire or opportunity to hold office in Canada. (In addition to the "national language" effort, his other big cause was to prevent "digit dialing" from taking hold at Ma Bell.)
A picture of your family is
Submitted by ant on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 2:29pm.
A picture of your family is not your family. A picture of your loved ones is just a picture. But I'll bet if I urinated on and then set fire to a picture of your family or loved ones, you would not find me very endearing.
ant
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 3:47pm.
If you have a picture of my family, feel free to urinate on it. Whether or not you are endearing is a judgment I'll make independent of that action.
The word is not the thing. Truly it's not. Would you be offended if I peed on the American flag? Maybe so. How about if I peed on a picture of the American flag? How about a picture of that picture? How about an index card, on which I write "A picture of the American Flag"? How about an abbreviation of the above: PAF. What about just a "P"? Would you be offended if I pee on a P?
If you follow this exercise to its absurd conclusion, you recognize that it's foolish to treat a symbol as though it were the thing being represented. Moreover, it's dangerous: I have seen gang members kill each other over a tee-shirt.
On your earlier post you
Submitted by ant on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 4:29pm.
On your earlier post you state, "A flag is just a flag" nothing more and now you admit a flag is a symbol. Yes, the Stars and Stripes are a symbol of our country, and it's a whole lot easier than the alternative of running the geograpic area of the United States up a flagpole. So being that it is a symbol of the United States, someone (especially someone who wants to be Commander-in Chief) who thinks they have no need to show respect for the flag is saying, in essence, " I don't respect the country which this flag represents". The average shmoe at a baseball game can be forgiven if he stops to pick up his dropped hot dog during the National Anthem, but someone vying to be the leader of the free world should have a little common sense and some sense of tradition, even if just for the fallen soldiers who have ensured his freedom to be an asshole. We all know that O thinks this country is bad and must be "transformed" by HIM in order to be counted worthy in the "progressive" sense and that's probably why he has shown this contempt for her traditions and "needless" respect for the flag. That's why it's interesting that he chooses this moment where he perceives he is in a high profile situation with many eyes on him in a touchy situation to go through the motions.
ant
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 4:36pm.
I know what you think he did wrong when he failed to salute the flag years ago. What do you think he did wrong recently, when he said that Americans put their hands on their hearts? Should he have chosen a "low profile" situation to say that? Should he have said it in Norwegian?
He didn't say anything wrong.
Submitted by ant on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 5:03pm.
He didn't say anything wrong. It's hypocrisy. For a man, for example, to cheat on his spouse for three years and then tell an audience, " 'Round here, we are faithful to our wives.'" is laughable. That's not the best example, but you know what I'm saying. Someone once said, "The American people can be extremely forgiving of almost any transgression. But they never tolerate hypocrisy." Unless of course,some people think you are the Messiah.
hypocrisy
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 5:35pm.
Some time before the election, Obama was photographed with his arms by his side, while the National Anthem was playing.
Three years later, at a memorial memorial service, he said:
"If there are rain puddles in heaven, Christina is jumping in them today. And here on earth, here on this earth, we place our hands over our hearts, and we commit ourselves as Americans to forging a country that is forever worthy of her gentle, happy spirit.”
If you honestly see hypocrisy there, we'll have to agree to disagree.
yutsnark...
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 6:02pm.
Obama did say something to the effect of if you know the words to the National Anthem I hope you'll sing it with your hands held over your hearts.
However, I don't understand the point in resurrecting a campaign gaffe which was flogged to death three years ago. Well, actually it's not all that hard to understand. It provides a convenient playground for yet another ODS-fueled bashfest.
Jer
~ODS-fueled bashfest
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 6:08pm.
C'mon Jer, don't begrudge it to us. We have so little, ya know?
If it was a mistake, a one
Submitted by Liberallies on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 6:24pm.
If it was a mistake, a one time event, if it wasn't an attitude, we would never talk about it again. But this is Obama's MO, it is how he behaves. He doesn't think much of the America we live in today.
and please, for anyone, a Liberal, specially, to cry over ODS is kind of pathetic after 8 years of BDS from the Left/Liberals, Democrats!
Good heavens, Bru... Do you
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 6:36pm.
Good heavens, Bru...
Do you stay up long into the night--well after Mr. Bru and the little Brus are all snuggy and asleep in their comfy beds--and scour the internet looking to add to your already massive collection of pictures and songs designed solely to embarrass us libs?
Jer
~If
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 6:41pm.
I could prop my eyelids open I probably would. Hahahahaha!
Fortunately, an excellent memory+Google does the trick. "Obama limp wrist images" took .33 seconds.
Mind like a steel trap
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 7:36pm.
Jer, you got it, almost verbatim:
"I hope you know all the words to the National Anthem and sing it with your hand over your heart."
understanding obsession
Submitted by Agnostic on Fri, 01/14/2011 - 9:01pm.
While not for everyone I believe it is not having any acknowledgement of a point or questions answered in the media or political body. This is true of the far left who can not be content with the reassurance they get from the generally liberal media and must flock to MSNBC and various web sites. It is also true of the right but there are very few avenues out there for the moderate conservative - read left of this site but right of most elected Republicans. The questions the right ask and the complaints we have are generally only given air time as a path to insults or dismissal. Without some type of recognition that there is another side to the story there is a lack of fairness and equality that really bothers most people. It is my belief that is why common people that wouldn't hold a grudge more than a second about most things won't let a gaffe go for years.
Insufferable self-pity?
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 8:42pm.
Elaborate, please.
Yeah, I suppose you can side
Submitted by ant on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 12:50pm.
Yeah, I suppose you can side with Mexico against one of your own States or bad-mouth your Country while visiting the despotic rulers of other Nations who can only dream of matching the US for freedom and human rights and STILL respect you're country. I suppose you can think the Feds enumarated powers are a real drag and choose to ignore it but still respect the Constitution too. I'll tell ya, liberal think is what has got this country f'd up.
There are US Laws
Submitted by falcon on Fri, 01/14/2011 - 12:57pm.
...governing the way the flag should be respected. If you disrespect the flag, not only do you disrespect this nation but also the laws upon which it is based.
I was going to comment further, but this moral (and legal) relativism is making me ill.
“I will not stand by and watch this great country destroy itself under mediocre leadership, that drifts from one crisis to the next, eroding our national will and purpose.” – Ronald Reagan, July 17, 1980.
US laws
Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/14/2011 - 8:48pm.
I certainly hope not.
~I know you're proud of your ignorance
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Fri, 01/14/2011 - 9:00pm.
as well as of your humility, but you should really try reading up now and then.
Wrathful correction
Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/14/2011 - 9:55pm.
Got me again, Wrathful Brunette. Yes, there are regulations regarding the display of flags by government agencies. I thought falcon was suggesting something like the flag burning amendment that people were talking about a few years ago.
By the way, your comments would be just as helpful, and easier to read, if you sometimes left out the insults. I've never said anything bad about you.
~Yutz
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Sat, 01/15/2011 - 11:09am.
You've disrespected this country, it's flag, and everything it stands for all up and down this thread. The one time you bothered to look anything up on this subject you referenced a chinese school site. What, you're incapable of finding an American link about the American flag? You've peed on the shoes of everyone who's responded to you and you want to complain now? I explained the historical and cultural significance of flags and you responded with this mockery:
I shall no longer deem it trivial when a lady wraps her scarf around my arm as I head into battle.
The fact is, you know exactly what we're talking about. If a man walked into a synagogue and burned a tallit or a yarmulke on the floor in front of the congregation you wouldn't need anyone to explain to you what that represents. If nothing else, it's incredibly rude and insensitive towards the culture the desecrated symbol represents, and we all know how liberals feel about respecting people's culture. Unless it's the American culture, that is. The country that has never persecuted it's Jewish population and has spilled more of it's own blood and treasure in the defense of liberty than any other somehow deserves to be sh!t on. Take a long walk off a short wharf, yutz.Wrathful wrath
Submitted by yutsnark on Sat, 01/15/2011 - 2:54pm.
Well, the insults seem very important to you, and I guess nothing I say will change that. But for the record, I did appreciate your post about flag history, and no mockery (except possibly self-mockery) was intended in my response.
~Disrespecting the flag
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Sat, 01/15/2011 - 4:58pm.
seems very important to you.
You're repeatedly blowing by my points while focusing on irrelevant matters. By all means, utterly disregard the valid points and information I've provided in favor of playing the victim.
If I were repeatedly posting things like, "You can piss on the floor of a synagogue without disrespecting everything it represents" do you think you might get just a tad annoyed with my willfully obtuse horsehockey?
True, WB
Submitted by yutsnark on Sat, 01/15/2011 - 5:11pm.
You can piss on the floor of a synagogue without disrespecting everything in represents. Indeed, I'm sure it's been done.
Similarly, if somebody is singing the National Anthem, but not putting his hand on his heart, there is insufficient evidence to conclude that he disrespects America.
~So
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Sat, 01/15/2011 - 5:16pm.
you only get upset about insults directed towards yourself, everyone and everything else can go hang.
Duly noted.
Just "somebody" ? or the
Submitted by ant on Sat, 01/15/2011 - 5:37pm.
Just "somebody" ? or the President? There is a difference. Unless you're a liberal wrapped up in "moral relativism", the subject makes a difference. If a drunk man takes a leak on the floor of a synagogue it will be perceived differently than if a young Muslim male does it. I'm sure you would say that it's wrong to jump to conclusions of a motive in such a case, but being a Lib you probably have no problem blaming Palin for the Tucson shootings.
ant
Submitted by yutsnark on Sat, 01/15/2011 - 7:01pm.
Hi ant,
First of all, I don't blame Palin for the shooting. Have I ever said or implied anything like that?
Second, although Obama wasn't the President when the flag photo was taken, he was a public figure, and I agree that it would have been appropriate for him to place his hand on his heart.
However, I don't see any basis for the assumptions that are made about his motives.
Regarding your example: Yes, if a young Muslim male peed on the synagogue floor, I'd be worried. If, while peeing, he yelled "Death to all Jews!" I'd be very upset indeed. But now we're talking not about the action itself, but the motives.
~Actions
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Sat, 01/15/2011 - 8:55pm.
are the fruit that motives bear. Stop implying there's only the vaguest of links between them.
WB
Submitted by yutsnark on Sat, 01/15/2011 - 9:31pm.
Yeah, but it's really, really important to look at the motives. We all know the significance of "blood libel," do we not? And we all know that hunters put a target in their "crosshairs" before shooting. Still, would you not agree that it would be wrong for us to assume that Sarah Palin is anti-semitic, or that she literally wanted to kill her political rivals?
→ Clarify, yutsnark
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Sat, 01/15/2011 - 9:33pm.
What is the significance of "blood libel"?
Blood libel clarification
Submitted by yutsnark on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 1:31am.
Cool Arrow, the term refers to a superstitious belief that Jews steal gentile babies, and use their blood to make matzot for Passover. Recently Sarah Palin caused some raised eyebrows when she used the term in an entirely different way. I have no idea who chose those words for her, or why. But nothing I have seen would suggest that Sarah Palin is actually antisemitic.
Yuts are you saying Palin is
Submitted by Radical1979 on Sat, 01/15/2011 - 9:34pm.
Yuts are you saying Palin is anti-Semitic? Your post is a bit confusing.
Radical
Submitted by yutsnark on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 1:33am.
Sorry for the confusion. No, I'm saying that would be an erroneous conclusion.
Yutsnark, You are talking in
Submitted by ant on Sat, 01/15/2011 - 10:26pm.
Yutsnark, You are talking in circles. First you act as though actions have no motives, so anyone from a Presidential contender who doesn't salute the flag to a man urinating in a holy place could possibly do so from a foundation of pure innocence who's motives or reasons are some sort of blank slate and totally irrelevant. A premise that I and Wrathful Brunnette take issue with. Even a baby does not cry or laugh without reason or a motivation.
Now, you want to discuss the importance of motivations and what it means to you in relation to Sarah Palin? Are you suggesting that this jump to blame Palin for Loughner's violence is akin to assuming Obama doesn't respect the flag?
Yes ant, you put it well
Submitted by yutsnark on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 1:26am.
I am indeed suggesting that this jump to blame Palin for Loughner's violence is akin to assuming Obama doesn't respect the flag.
I don't think I ever said actions have no motives. Certainly I didn't intend to say that. However, I do believe that it's important to discover the motive, and not assume that it's obvious from the nature of the action.
Sorry, Yutsnark, I'm not
Submitted by ant on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 1:46am.
Sorry, Yutsnark, I'm not buying that. It was Obama HIMSELF who professedly refused to salute the flag in the honor to which we have become accustomed or wear a lapel pin of the flag or stick up for his Country while abroad, not someone else. Now if some Joe Citizen refused to stand up for the Pledge of Allegiance and I and a gaggle of journalists immediately blamed Obama for Joe's behavior, THAT would be similar.
ant
Submitted by yutsnark on Sun, 01/16/2011 - 3:14am.
Wasn't it Palin herself who used the term "blood libel"?
Still I think we'll continue to differ on this. Perhaps we can both agree that one should not jump to conclusions prematurely. However, you feel that Obama's failure to put hand on heart is readily interpretable, as it was part of a pattern in which he repeatedly displayed disrespect for America. I feel differently.
No! It's not
Submitted by Boudin on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 1:19pm.
Actually, it's possible to respect the flag, and not respect the men and women who have died.
Not by me it aint!
Noted.
Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 3:48pm.
Noted.
The sick freak's an ingrate too!
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 10:03pm.
So, not only are you a sick freak, you are a spoiled ingrate.
You can fall to your knees this 11 November (and each thereafter) and KISS MY ASS.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Let's cut Him some slack.
Submitted by Newsbubba on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 9:34am.
OK, maybe he doesn't "cover his heart" when he should, but hey! He always know exactly when and how to bow down to foreign leaders. His form is impeccable!
People do what is important to them.
'Here We Place Our Hands Over
Submitted by Cowboy on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 2:27pm.
'Here We Place Our Hands Over Our Hearts.' ...Because here we are aware of international media coverage that we arranged...Don't blame him!
Submitted by tinydancer on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 9:06pm.
Obama: born and raised to hate Amerika.
Can a leopard change his spots? No.
Will the leopard change his spots? No.
Obama's cat has been out of it's bag too long.