Given some of the reactions to an item I wrote yesterday about Barney Frank's objections to Rick Warren giving the invocation at the inauguration, let me state for the record that I lean libertarian on marriage. On the one hand, I don't like courts substituting their judgment for legislatures or the will of the people. But in the long run, I think it might be better for government to recognize that marriage is a religious or spiritual institution, and confine its role to enforcing agreements between partners.
That said, I can't help but chuckle at the way the MSM is twisting itself into knots over the Rick Warren issue. The latest, most entertaining episode occured on this evening's 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, on MSNBC. David Shuster discovered that, contrary to his presumption, civil rights pioneer Rev. Joseph Lowery, also on the inaugural program, does not support gay marriage!
Shuster did his best to pick a fight between the two pastors. But not only did the Rev. Lowery refuse to go down that path, Shuster discovered, presumably to his dismay, that Lowery joins with Warren in seeing marriage as the union between a man and a woman.
SHUSTER: You've spent your entire career crusading for civil rights for all Americans. In 2000, you gave a speech at the general convention of the United Methodist Church in defense of gay clergy. Recently you said to Southern Voice: "I'm strongly opposed to propositions or amendments that put into law any discrimination against citizens because of sexual orientation." So again, isn't it incumbent upon you to take a position now given that you have spoken out before?Whoops!
JOSEPH LOWERY: No. That's not my job at this instance. I differ with the young pastor who's going to give the [invocation]. I differ with him sharply on his position on this issue. I don't think we ought to put into law any discriminatory action against people because of race, or ethnicity or sexual orientation. I oppose that. But that doesn't stop me from being on a program with him.
SHUSTER: Fair enough. But is it incumbent upon you then, at that program, or at least elsewhere, to make those sharp differences clear? To say, you know what: I took a very different view on Proposition 8. I support gay marriage. Others do not, but it's important that my voice be heard.
LOWERY: Well, I've never said I support gay marriage. I support gay rights and I support civil unions. Like a whole lot of people, I have some difficulty with the term gay marriage. Because deep in my heart, deeply rooted in my heart and mind, marriage is associated with man and woman. So I have a little cultural shock with that. But I certainly support civil unions, and that gay partners ought to have all the rights that any other citizens have in this country.
—Mark Finkelstein is a NewsBusters contributing editor and host of Right Angle. Contact him at mark@gunhill.net.




















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→ What's this
December 23, 2008 - 20:50 ET by Cool ArrowIs Reverand Joseph Lowery black?
Now it makes perfect sense. Put one out there as the free-game fall-guy, and the other gets a free pass for the same espoused views.
Brilliant, Barry. You are an experienced chessmaster.
African Americans tend to
December 23, 2008 - 20:54 ET by Gat New YorkAfrican Americans tend to have very traditional views when it comes to homosexuality, so i am not surprised.
→ Me neither Gat
December 23, 2008 - 20:58 ET by Cool ArrowNor does it surprise me that the MSM goes after the white guy because he's a green light issue.
MSM has no guts.
msm gives blacks a pass on
December 23, 2008 - 21:06 ET by porpoiseboyhomosexuality issues, because they generally view blacks as inferior "brothers" in their elitist liberal causes. as long as they can get them to vote pretty much along party lines....it's all good. besides, their prejudice also makes them afraid of getting their asses kicked.
"Here comes the orator! With his flood of words, and his drop of reason" Ben Franklin
Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left
→ As stated by Pres. Bush
December 23, 2008 - 21:09 ET by Cool ArrowThe soft bigotry of low expectations.
And of course, we have Joe Biden's opinion that black children are intellectually inferior to whites.
Civil Rights vs. "civil rights"
December 23, 2008 - 22:36 ET by moderncommentaries83Many blacks are also offended at the usurping of the Civil Rights movement as the tent for gay rights, when they are clearly not in the same league.
So I'm sure some of the "civil rights" rhetoric is biting the gay rights movement in the rear.
But remember, it was those eeeeeeevillllll Catholics and Mormons who voted for Prop 8 and are the source of all anti-gay bigotry in America. I noticed none of the Prop 8 protests went to south central or east LA, attacking the blacks and Hispanics who voted for Prop. 8 in large numbers...
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
I don't see the big deal
December 23, 2008 - 21:11 ET by Clear thinkerI don't see the big deal here. As far as I'm concerned this is a non-issue!
Christmas Classics
Making Fun of AGW http://giovanniworld.wordpress.com/
You rock CT
December 24, 2008 - 04:33 ET by RukusLoved them. Especially Josh Groben, wonderful! Memories are very cool. Blessed Christmas to you and yours.
Uncle Gary
A Blessed Christmas to All!
Seger's "Drummer Boy"
December 24, 2008 - 07:01 ET by Nortorendition is rockin' as is Boney M's "Mary's Boy Child," which is the bride's favorite, Merry Christ Mas. N
Boing!
December 23, 2008 - 22:18 ET by GalvanicSHUSTER: Fair enough. But is it incumbent upon you then, at that program, or at least elsewhere, to make those sharp differences clear? To say, you know what: I took a very different view on Proposition 8. I support gay marriage. Others do not, but it's important that my voice be heard.
Well, I guess Shuster's now heard Rev. Lowery's voice. Will he label the good reverend a hypocrite?
Ha!!!
December 23, 2008 - 23:05 ET by RESTLESS 1What I've been sayng all along. If it is not done by a vested clergy, then if is not marriage. The state has no business in marriage, only state issues of power of attorney and such.
"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
"But I certainly support
December 23, 2008 - 23:27 ET by ckc1227"But I certainly support civil unions, and that gay partners ought to
have all the rights that any other citizens have in this country."
Newsflash: They DO have all the rights that every other citizen has in this country.
"Libs never let you down. You don't have to talk to one very long before the stupid comes out."
Schuster
December 23, 2008 - 23:36 ET by merlin61Who the H*** is Mr Schuster to tell anyone what
they should say or stand up for at any time.
What authority does he have to order someone to
get up at th inauguration and tell them what to
say? He really goofed on this one. I love it!!!!
No True.....
December 24, 2008 - 00:36 ET by ScrapironNo true Christian, Jew, Catholic or Islamist can support gays in any way. It's against the Bible and the Koran. You don't hunt them down and harm/kill them but there is no way you can support them and maintain your faith. That's just the way it is. You can become a democrat and change the meaning of the words in the bible like they change documented history to suit they're political purposes, but that won't support any known faith, it only makes you a hypcrite who should never enter the doors of a house of worship. I no longer participate in organized religion because so many of the leaders have became hypocrites who pick and choose what part of the bible they preach as the teachings of God.
Old, Retired and glad of it.
Scrapiron - We are Going to Have to Agree to Disagree
December 24, 2008 - 04:21 ET by Rush FanScrapiron wrote: "No true Christian, Jew, Catholic or Islamist can support gays in any way. It's against the Bible and the Koran."
As a Californian, I supported and voted for Proposition 8 (marriage between a man and a woman). But I couldn't disagree with you more regarding your attitude toward gays.
I have a close relative who is gay. I still love and respect him. He is kind, considerate, and goes out of his way to help people in need. He is gay, but he is also a decent human being. He is the type of person who, if he had to sacrifice his own life to save yours Scrapiron, would probably do so. That's more than I can say for myself. Gay or straight, we can use more people with his qualities in this world.
In summary, I support good and deserving people. Whether they are gay or straight is irrelevant. That is what I have learned from my religious upbringing, my life experience and reading the bible.
Wishing you and your family a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, and a Happy, Healthy and Safe New Year.
P.S. I'm also old, retired and glad of it.
---------------------------------------------------------
Always remember that you are absolutely unique. Just like
everyone else.
Mark
December 24, 2008 - 04:38 ET by Rush FanI got your message. Thank you for your quick response.
Have an enjoyable, restful and safe holiday period!
Rush Fan
Fan, that's a nice sentiment. Except for one thing.
December 24, 2008 - 10:39 ET by Mike BrattonThere are no such entities as "good and deserving people." Reading the Bible will tell you that in more than one way. "For all have sinned," "There is none righteous," and so forth.
And sexual sin, just like any other sin, is hardly irrelevant when it takes the place God should have in an individual's life, which is to say first place. A saving relationship with Jesus Christ is the only thing that counts for time and eternity.
"Agree to disagree" all you like, but this isn't a matter of opinion--God has the ultimate say.
Here's to a Christ-centered Christmas, folks.
--Mike
www.thebrattonreport...
Here's a take
December 24, 2008 - 14:26 ET by choselife3xBack in the old days life was simply a continuous struggle for survival. People banded together in villages and small towns. (I'm talking Biblical old days here, not the 19th century)
The family unit was crucial for the survival of the community as a whole. The whole point of life was to continue the family line.
All behaviors that had a negative effect on this supreme goal of survival were dealt with harshly.
Murderers were not 'imprisoned' they were executed. Thieves were severely punished because their behavior threatened their victims very lives. (when you can just barely subsist on what you have, any loss is devastating)
Adultery destroys the family unit and therefore could not be tolerated by society.
Homosexuality is universally abhorred by primitive societies. It is an unnatural union which produces no offspring. (The union of a male and a female is REQUIRED by nature to produce offspring, therefore man on man or woman on woman IS UNNATURAL. How is this not blatantly obvious?!)
Since it produces no offspring, homosexuality CANNOT be tolerated by a subsistence society.
All sexual deviancy is psychologically harmful to those who practice it and those whom they practice it upon. Therefore they weaken the fabric of society. They are anti-social.
ANY INDIVIDUAL WHOSE BEHAVIOR ATTACKED, THREATENED, DIMINISHED, OR UNDERMINED THE SURVIVAL OF THE FAMILY UNIT WAS A DEADLY THREAT TO THE COMMUNITY.
Sounds harsh, but there it is.
Just as a minor flesh wound can become life-threatening when infected; deviant behavior left unchecked will spread through society (the body) and destroy that which its own existence depends on.
When mere survival is no longer an issue, and particularly when luxury abounds, society as a whole becomes more permissive of anti-social behaviors. Lying, cheating, stealing, fornication, adultery. All these behaviors are indicative of supreme selfishness.
'I want what I want and I don't care what I have to do or who I have to hurt to get it.'
The infection spreads until the host is overwhelmed and succumbs.
Every great society on the face of the earth has crumbled to dust because they grew rich, and proud, and they said in their hearts "There is no God".
And so they followed their base lusts, petty desires, and cheap thrills.
How are the mighty fallen. How soon the glory fades.
'For this world which seems,
To lie before us like a land of dreams,
Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,
Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain,
But we are here as on a darkening plain,
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.
Matthew Arnold
Such is the ultimate end of the progressive secular agenda.
May God gave mercy on us.
Merry Christmas! :-)
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Thank you Chose
December 24, 2008 - 14:50 ET by cocodrieGreat post that I agree with.
Be careful though, you'll be accused of being archaic and outdated by the left-wing extremists that degrade this site.
I'd consider that a compliment
December 24, 2008 - 15:12 ET by choselife3xConsidering the source! ;-)
I'm 28 so they can't call me an 'old fogey'.
The company I worked for before I was married was owned and operated by 2 gay men. I worked side-by-side with gay men and accompanied 1 of them to several social functions! (I wasn't cover, he was 'out')
Hmmm....there goes the homophobe angle....
Let's sit back and see what else they come up with. The one thing I know they won't do is refute my logic with any of their own....so...that leaves us with....oh yeah, name-calling!
Let's see how inventive they can be. (please don't be boring and predictable)
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Chose
December 24, 2008 - 15:58 ET by cocodrieThe word homophobia was made up in 1969 to promote the homosexual agenda. The word gay was hijacked by homosexuals for the same reason in 1971. That is why I never use the term gay or homophobia when speaking to them.
I also had homosexuals as business associates because I worked with numerous decorators. We get along fine and we are still friends.
I just have a problen being told by the flamers that I am intolerant because I refuse to accept their intolerance and hatred of anyone and anything that is Christian. After a few months of their crap on this site, my bucket's full.
Clear reminded me of Red Skelton on his site Giovanni's world. Red only had a seventh grade education And I'm proud they put me in his class.
Merry Christmas and have a happy and blessed new year.
Hijacked is right. When I
December 24, 2008 - 16:27 ET by choselife3xHijacked is right. When I type 'homo' the spell check prompts 'homophobic' as soon as I get to the second 'o'! Apparently there are homosexual computer programmers! But I'm not afraid....*gasp* Did you see that?! He, he looked....QUEER!!!
Ahhhhhhh!!!!*runs shrieking into the night*
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Mike Bratton & Scrapiron - We Will Have to Agree to Disagee
December 25, 2008 - 06:04 ET by Rush FanIt was not my intent to defend gays or the gay lifestyle. My intent was to defend and support good (i.e. benevolent, a desire to promote the welfare or happiness of others; generous in providing aid to others) people, regardless of whether they are straight or gay.
If I had a wish I would change gays to straight. Then again, if I were given only three wishes, changing gays to straight would not be at the top of my list. It would probably be something like world peace, health and happiness for my family and friends, and a few billion dollars for my family’s financial security and a winter home in Hawaii.
Gallop states that most expert estimates place America's homosexual population at 10% or less. That is a lot of gay men and women. So I can say with almost certainty that you have encountered gays in your life in the past and will in the future who have or will have a positive affect on your life.
It may have been a gay teacher that encouraged and motivated you or:
It really doesn’t matter whether you appreciate these people who happen to be gay. They have made a positive and perhaps significant affect on your life and will do so in the future whether you admit it or not. I compare this lack of acknowledgement to LIBS unwilling to acknowledge that President Bush has kept us safe for all these years. It doesn't matter whether LIBS, who despise Bush more than some people despise gays, admit that our President's efforts have kept them safe. The fact is that he has kept everyone, including LIBS, safe.
In conclusion, if you believe that God is the Creator of everything than you can thank God for all the good, caring and decent people, straight and gay, you have or will encounter in your life.
states that most expert
December 26, 2008 - 12:13 ET by Dan The Man 2states that most expert estimates place America's homosexual population at 10% or less
Less much less, more on the order of 1 to 2 percent if that.. The 10% figure is a figure put out there by the homosexual lobbies to normalize homosexual behavior. One thing you can believe about statistics is that 99 percent of them are made up on teh spot, including this one.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Scrapiron
December 24, 2008 - 04:49 ET by Chattychito"I no longer participate in organized religion because so many of the leaders have became hypocrites who pick and choose what part of the bible they preach as the teachings of God"
May I encourage you to find a fellowship that the pastor does practice and preach the Bible. As Christians we are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together. I know how you feel about Christians who do opposite to what they know to be true to the Bible. But I wont let them make me disobedient to the word of God because of their sinfulness (hypocracy) and neither should you. Try a Calvary Chapel fellowship
You confuse SIN versus SINNER
December 24, 2008 - 09:22 ET by moderncommentaries83As a Catholic, I take issue with this comment:
Unless you mis-typed what you meant to say, that's absolutely wrong. We Catholics are called to love every person. Especially those who sin.
Catholic teaching on sexuality is pretty simple: the act of sexual intercourse is reserved for a life-giving, loving, committed sacramental marriage and any act outside that arrangement is sinful (known as fornication, or adultery, if you cheat on your spouse). This is because we view sexuality and the human body, made in the image and likeness of God, to be such amazing gifts and that sexual intercourse is a powerful reminder of the love God has for us in our marriages that it should only be expressed in the loving relationship of a marriage. People who follow the Church's teachings on sexuality - and especially contraception - report a happier, more stable marriage and a better physical relationship with their husband/wife.
Catholics believe that same-sex attraction (SSA, or "being gay") is probably a genetic thing. Therefore, it is no more sinful to be SSA than it is to be heterosexual. Catholics who understand that would never say or insinuate or believe gay people are going to hell merely for their inclinations. Rather, when those behaviors are acted upon - just as with heterosexuals - it is sinful. Because we all have a choice as to what we do in our actions.
And any relationship, be it the cohabitation of a heterosexual couple outside the bonds of marriage, or a gay couple living together that imitates but does not fully comply with the teachings on marriage is a sin. We are always called to discourage sin.
Which is why many oppose gay marriage. We cannot encourage sinful behavior any more than we can encourage or support laws that give spousal benefits to a non-married heterosexual couple.
But - even with such a compassionate view of sin and homosexuality - Catholics (along with other conservative religious groups) are constantly lambasted for our views as being bigots and haters and responsible for violence toward gays.
Do you really think rudeness and hostility in any way reflect Christian charity or Christ? He spoke clearly and frankly to the tax collecters, thieves and prostitutes with which He associated: "Go, and sin no more." He spend time with them, but never condoned their sinful behavior. We are to do the same.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
As a former Catholic...
December 24, 2008 - 10:27 ET by MDRepublicanI take some issue with your stance. I believe that the American Catholic church is far more liberal in its views then the church in Rome. And in fact, several times was warned to toe the line under JPII. How can you say what you have said regarding this issue, when the church has its' own SSA problems. I was ashamed to be a Catholic after the church tried to shove the molestation problem under the carpet. It was dispicable and rather then a show that as Catholics we love everyone, it was symptomatic of a church in trouble. I know of boys, now men who were molested while attending my Catholic HS. It is reprehensible to me that a church would allow this type of behavior to go unpunished and to not expose these pedophiles for who they were. But then again the problem was rooted in the very seminaries that the hierachy came from.
I believe that for the most part those who practice the faith turn a blind eye on these transgressions. And there are a large majority of Catholics in MD and other states, who will also look the other way at the ballot box and continue to elect politicians that absolutely defy the very teachings of the church they hold so solemn in their hearts. Example: Babs McCulskey. She is a Catholic, yet she supports abortion, gay marriage and other beliefs that are against the standings of the church. Yet, like so many lemmings, the Catholic "D" will line up and re-elect her every election cylce. It frustrates me to no end because I believe you cannot seperate your religious beliefs from your civic duty. It is IMO hypocrisy at its ultimate. But its OK you can genuflect to the cross (sorry we don't do that anymore) attend the Sunday Mass (do the good deed) and all will be right for another week.
I didn't abandon the Catholic Church, it abandoned me.
My response
December 26, 2008 - 10:07 ET by moderncommentaries83Thank you for your response. Here is my response to your concerns:
It is true that - between the 1960s and 1980s - the seminaries and lay Catholic institutions gave rise to more liberal theology. I don't deny it. Read Michael S. Rose's book Goodbye, Good Men to get an idea of what havoc they caused. These priests, eventual bishops, nuns/other religious, and Catholic laity grossly misinterpreted (either intentionally or otherwise) the Vatican II Council. They held in contempt the teachings of the faith, especially in regard to social issues like abortion, homosexuality, marriage, birth control, the celibate priesthood and women's ordination. They sought positions of power within the heirarchy to attempt to achieve these ends. Rose's book details how good, faithful, orthodox men were often harrassed in and expelled from seminary so that the more liberal could manufacture the priest shortage they said required opening up the priesthood to women, gays, and married men.
Because I'm able to draw a distinction between SSA and homosexual behavior. By and large, the priests who committed the abuse were gay. While not reflective of the general population the fact remains that the priests were gay. If it follows that SSA is the cause of the abuse, then every person in the world with SSA would be an abuser. SSA is an inclination no different than heterosexuality. The problem comes when people act on unnatural, sinful desires - both SSA and heterosexual.
Don't get me wrong, what the priests did - and the bishops who covered for them - is terrible and wrong. They should be defrocked and thrown in jail. The problem - and you admit as much - is that those hostile to Catholic teaching run (or ran) the seminaries, parishes, and diocese that made this possible. Many bishops - and, living in Milwaukee, I can tell you OUR former archbishop - sympathized with the abusers because they, like I mentioned earlier, had a vision for the Catholic Church uncompatible with her teachings.
I also see the Church making strides to correct this. Mostly by screening candidates to the seminary and - quite possibly - barring many homosexual candidates if it seems their inclinations will not be compatible with Church teaching and the priestly discipline of celibacy. But, of course, you know what this means: the very same media that lamented the abuse will now attack us for "homophobia." Mark my words (taken from another Catholic blogger): the day is swift coming where the Church will not be attacked for the cover-up scandal, but for punishing the abusers.
We DO have to walk a fine line because there are many SSA persons in the Catholic Church who believe the Church's teachings on sexuality who have to, on a daily basis, make the commitment not to give in to popular culture and sin. You shouldn't need me to tell you that SSA individuals who live chastely according to their faith are lambasted by the libertines in culture who think sex with anyone or anything, at any place or time, is a fundamental human right.
I don't disagree. There were a few cars in my parish parking lot with Obama bumper stickers on them. It broke my heart. But I would counter that those Catholics who vote for a politician - any politician - who supports policies inimical to the Catholic faith don't (as you claim) "hold so solemn in their hearts" the teachings of the Church. If they did, they would not that the BIG non-negotiables of Catholic voting are:
Now, anyone with a brain can tell you 99.99% of mainstream Democrats oppose all three and that no Catholic should vote for them. Unfortunately, through a combination of the media lying, politicians lying, a dumbing-down of theology (again, by the self-same wishy, washy liberals who despise the true Catholic faith), and a general lowering of education in society at large, people don't make these connections.
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU! In fact, I walked away from an event at a sister parish because some woman showed up with an Obama button on, and I wanted to say something to her (my husband strongly encouragd me not to). And I think you'd be surprised to learn that many lay Catholics and the next generation of clergy/religious agree with you, too!
I would highly recommend reading Render Unto Caesar, by Bishop Charles Chaput (http://www.amazon.co...) or Bishop Chaput's other book Living the Catholic Faith (http://www.amazon.co...).
I know it's frustrating and upsetting. Getting involved with blogs and social networking, and just being an adult who keeps up with the news in general makes it very disheartening sometimes. There are days when I feel the Catholic Church is an island - liberals want nothing to do with us because we don't think promiscuous sex is okay. Conservatives want nothing to do with us when they think we're getting to liberal in our ideas (like "social justice", which isn't the same thing as liberals think). The media quotes the Pope with praise when convenient (like when he talks about caring for the planet) and belittles him when he reinforces the exact same things we've been teaching for years (see the whole "saving the planet from gays is like saving the rainforest" debacle).
Would I like to see "Catholic" politicians be denied communion (or possibly excommunicated) for their behavior? You bet. However, excommunication is a sword that must be wielded carefully. When politicians in the past have been excommunicated, it often does not bode well for the Catholic laity.
And you don't need me to tell you that the next 4-8 years, with Barack Obama in the White House and Dems in Congress, indicate a very difficult time for the Catholic faith. Bishops have already vowed to challenge FOCA; I anticipate swift reaction and legislation a la Canada - wherein anything that goes against liberal ideology is a hate crime. Do not be surprised if bishops, priests, and laity are either sued or jailed for opposing Obama on issues.
But I still have reason to believe. Here's why:
I believe you can contact me through this site. Feel free to do so if you wish to discuss this matter in greater detail. I would also ask - if you're willing to share such information - where you are located. My husband knows many religious and clergy, and studies the goings-on in parishes throughout the country. I'm 100% certain he'd be able to direct you to a parish, and a priest, faithful to the Catholic Church so you can come home. We haven't left you - you just haven't found a parish that "gets it."
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
→ Say what?
December 26, 2008 - 10:14 ET by Cool Arrow"By and large, the priests who committed the abuse were gay."
I was under the impression the offenses had to do with the molestation of underage boys.
I'm just saying getting it on with a 14 yr. old is pedophilia in my book. Dumping it off on Gays isn't fair.
Re-read my post
December 26, 2008 - 10:45 ET by moderncommentaries83If you re-read my post, you'll see that I qualify that comment by saying that while the majority of priests who abused (and this is a whopping .0013% of all the world's Catholics, mind you) are gay, that it's not reflective of the population at large. But it is reflective of the problem in the Church. And that's a fact you can't change.
So you're being fundamentally dishonest in your response to my post.
And pedophilia is not "getting it on with a 14-year old." The root of "pedophilia" is, like the word "pediatrics", "ped" or child - specifically, a child under the age of 13 or one who is pre-pubescent. After 13, children are considered adolescents and the correct term for the abuse is ephebophilia. Ephebophilia is the attraction of adults to adolescents and teens. (http://en.wikipedia....).
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
→ Laughable
December 26, 2008 - 11:01 ET by Cool ArrowI don't lay any of this at the feet of gays. You did.
Split hairs (pubic or otherwise) if you wish, I've seen that "most of them were gay" argument before.
They were evil men, preying on children, who should have been filtered out. Yours is by now a boring argument filled with excuses.
Maybe the Church should endeavor to attract men whose first consideration isn't whether they can abstain from sex completely.
Just one of many reasons that's not my world anymore.
Lies, and more lies
December 26, 2008 - 12:19 ET by moderncommentaries83No, I laid this at the feet of priests and bishops who happened to be gay. See the difference?
Did I not say what they did was wrong? No. I think they are evil. But to deny the fact that they were gay, and preyed not on children but adolescents and teens is the tired, dishonest argument now. We are attempting to filter out those who cannot commit to the celibate priesthood. Gay, straight or otherwise. THAT is part of the duty of a priest and I've known many priests who've faithfully fulfilled their duties and did so without problems to celibacy. No one goes into the priesthood not knowing the requirements.
Why should the Church change her teachings on sexuality when a small minority with incorrect sexual behaviors committed the crimes?
Because YOUR argument is the vapid one. The notion that the abuse happened because of the celibate priesthood is like saying vegetarians will become cannibals one day, or that those who refrain from drinking will become raging alcoholics.
If the problem were the all-male, celibate priesthood, then can you explain to me why in public schools - where married men and women can be teachers - there is a significantly higher rate of abuse (and why you hear stories talking about the "love" of one such abuser, Mary Kay Latourneau and her victim in the media)? Can you also explain to me why a majority of the abuse victims were adolescent males, and the abusers male? It's not because there weren't girls around to abuse...the priests had a preference.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
→ Who says?
December 26, 2008 - 12:31 ET by Cool ArrowWho says the Church should change her teaching on sexuality?
Does the RCC have different views on sexuality than other Christian religions? I certainly wasn't aware of any.
You can upgrade "pedophile" to "gay" if you wish. Whatever gets you through the day. It's a cinch you've taken some psychology courses.
And yes, I can explain why the attraction was to little boys (of course you'd rather call them "young men") but those are answers you already know.
More from the apologentsia, whose intelligent retort is "Lies and more lies"
Pathetic.
Who says the Church
December 26, 2008 - 12:35 ET by moderncommentaries83Anyone who thinks the problem of the abuse came from the Church's teachings on sexuality, specifically the all-male celibate priesthood, which the last sentence of your last comment seems to indicate.
Roman Catholic teaching on sexuality isn't too different from other Christian denominations, however many Protestant groups have eschewed the teaching on birth control, and many liberal groups have given a by to the notion of reserving sex for marriage.
If you're too thick to understand 1) that what happened in the Church is not pedophilia, but ephebophilia (which I've proved in previous posts), and 2) that I did not now, or ever in previous comments, blame the entire gay community - but the priests and bishops who commited abuse who ARE gay, then the problem is yours, not mine.
You have yet to answer or explain 1) why the victims were mostly adolescent/teenage males and the abusers male, and 2) how, if you believe the problem is celibacy, that people who are not in positions requiring celibacy abuse.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
→ Apologist
December 26, 2008 - 12:53 ET by Cool ArrowOK. So it's your belief that denial of one's sexuality is sexuality. Definitely some Psychology 101 at work here.
And the logical attraction of gays and pedophiles into the priesthood (particularly in the '60s and '70s is something that's been discussed at least one too many times in this blog (dedicated to exposing the hypocrisy of the Liberal Media).
All I did was protest your downgrading of "pedophilia" to "gay".
If the difference between 13 and 14 yrs old is your tipping point between molestation and "he was asking for it", that's your business. But I'd suggest you don't act on it.
MORE LIES
December 26, 2008 - 13:14 ET by moderncommentaries83Can you write anything honest in response to my post?
Is that what I said? No. I believe, to those who read my comments honestly, that what I said was the Catholic Church thinks SSA ("being gay") is no different from being heterosexual. It is a preference, and that is sexuality. But there is a difference between orientation and behavior. It is no more sinful to be SSA (a sexuality) than it is to be heterosexual (also a sexuality). No one is asking gays to deny their sexuality. However, the Church's teaching on sexual behavior is clear: it is to be reserved for a life-giving, loving, monogamous, life-long sacramental marriage. ANY sexual behavior outside the union of marriage is a sin. Gay or straight.
I can't read this part any other way than to say it absolutely backs my argument. Gays and abusers were attracted to the priesthood because it was a position of power. This issue cannot be discussed "one too many times" because all evidence points to it being the correct one.
That doesn't even make sense. First, a majority of the abuse wasn't pedophilia. It was ephebophilia; the victims were adolescent/teenaged males. There is a difference between the two, especially since the majority of victims were male, as were their abusers. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge these differences is fundamentally dishonest and intentionally trying to hide the problem.
You've made know acknowledgement of the fact I clearly stated in my first comment that while most priest abusers were gays, it does not reflect the general population.
I do note, however, you've intentionally refused to answer my very simple questions, so I'll take that as an indication YOU'RE merely projecting your inability to comprehend my arguements or too cowardly to provide direct answers. Obfuscation, twisting words, and name calling are not answers.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
→ Whatever
December 26, 2008 - 13:27 ET by Cool ArrowCall it what you like if it makes you feel better.
Discuss it among yourself all you want.
Agree with your own conclusions.
But if disagreeing with you brings out "Liar! Liar!" so quickly, I'll admit it's lots of fun to see you squeal, but not very thought provoking.
All that is your world now.
You're free to disagree
December 26, 2008 - 13:45 ET by moderncommentaries83But do you really want me to point out your lies and intentional misinterpretations? Those are lies, and your continued misuse of the term "pedophilia" is plain ignorance.
Why won't you answer my questions? I asked some pretty specific ones that I've noticed you avoided.
You're the one making thought-provoking discussion impossible, because you're assessment of the situation is the weak one. You merely don't like my position and can't stand that I won't roll over and agree with you.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
→ Because
December 26, 2008 - 14:02 ET by Cool ArrowIt's not that I don't like your position. That's much too mild.
I just won't get into the same semantic tapdance you have in order to treat unspeakable victimization as though it were some consenting dalliance.
You're minimalizing the experiences of kids I knew. Glad you grew up in less dangerous times.
Those kids weren't young men, they were children.
Ergo, discuss among yourself.
Nice arguments 83
December 26, 2008 - 14:11 ET by cocodrieBut totally wrong. you ignore the obvious with your silly obsession with playing on words.
Homosexuals entered the priesthood primarily because it provided them with many targets of opportunity. Please note that Jessie James did not rob poor farmers or well armed citizens, he robbed the vulnerable banks.
You can play on words all you want but it is homosexuality that is at fault.
Catholic Church
December 26, 2008 - 14:09 ET by choselife3x'The Catholic Church thinks Same Sex Attraction is no more sinful than heterosexuality.'
This is in direct contradiction to Scripture.
I Corinthians 6:9 KJV
'Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Effeminate nor abusers of themselves with mankind.
Sounds like he is distinguishing between 'practicing' and 'non-practicing' homosexuals. As in BOTH are excluded from inheriting the kingdom.
Lev 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.
God clearly said the homosexual act is an abomination. Why would He consider the desire to commit an abomination okay?
Jesus said 'Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath commited adultery with her already in his heart' Matt.6:28
So to lust after that which is forbidden by God is a sin.
Even worse, homosexuality is not just a sin, but also an abomination in God's eyes.
Declaring that SSA is legitimate in God's eyes, is nothing short of blasphemy.
*shrug* don't shoot the messenger.
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Just makes me sick when people attempt to
December 24, 2008 - 00:46 ET by Delsaequate "civil rights" with gay rights.
Civil rights has nothing to do with how one has SEX or with WHOM they have it.
I was all for civil rights and we have it.
As for gay rights? SHUT UP!
I don't care what you do in your bedroom or bathroom and who you do it with.
Just SHUT UP about it.
You don't hear heterosexuals running around shouting about their preferences?
Well?
Do Ya?
Baby Shuster has to get over the fact he is an odd ball and move on.
And one more thing
December 24, 2008 - 00:52 ET by DelsaNow that we have a Black Marxist with NO hair on his chest headed for the White House, can we Shut up about Civil Rights too?
just askin?
Shuster
December 24, 2008 - 04:39 ET by RukusShuster, only one thing to say...
Hehe hehe ha haha bwahahahahahahahahahaha!
Friggin' moron!
Merry Christmas!
Uncle Gary
A Blessed Christmas to All!
Bob Seger's "Drummer Boy"
December 24, 2008 - 06:59 ET by Nortorendition is pretty rockin' too! A fav of the bride is by Boney M singing "Mary's Boy Child." It amazes me that some of entertainers is so anti Christ and yet, don't they love to laugh all the way to the bank with revenue from their trade at this time of year.
Pray for their souls. My Sons as well, Merrry Christ Mas.
Is it just me, or does
December 24, 2008 - 09:16 ET by TD in FLIs it just me, or does Newsbusters always show a screencap of Shuster with his mouth wide open, looking baffoonish? Is that intentional, or unavoidable?
→ Shuster mouth agape
December 24, 2008 - 09:19 ET by Cool ArrowYou make the call.
Let's see here...Rosa
December 24, 2008 - 10:12 ET by RR GOPLet's see here...Rosa Parks, "I have a dream", marching against the Klan and Citizens Councils and their oppression against Black Americans = having your own day at Disney World, men wearing boas in public, and sodomy.
Yep, sounds like the American MSM to me!
One of the 24% who thinks George W. Bush was a great President. One of the 89% who wants to bring back the stock and pillory.
It comes as no surprise
December 24, 2008 - 11:44 ET by Tom in NCThat the homofascists don't have the guts to take on the black community, because they are simply cowards and cannot scream about civil rights to a race of people that have actually endured hardships such as slavery and discrimination due to a aspect of birth, and not a lifestyle choice.
Homosexuals are nothing more than a cancer on the body of our normally healthy society attempting to spread a disease from one segment of our society to another until it finally results in moral death.
Homosexuality as a disease?
December 24, 2008 - 12:13 ET by cathar"Homosexuals are nothing more than a cancer on the body of our normally healthy society attempting to spread a disease from one segment of our society to another until it finally results in moral death."
In addition to being extremely homophobic, the above comment is misinformed as the AMA and the DSM IV do not consider same sex attraction as a disease. To say that people like Mary Cheney (and her partner Heather Poe), the Log Cabin Republicans, and other tax paying, law abiding folks who contribute vastly to the quality of life in this country are a "cancer" is truly a reprehensible statement. And BTW, there are a number of African Americans who do support same sex marriage. John Ridley recently wrote an excellent article on the subject. While I don't know Colin Powell's position on gay marriage, I do know that he supports the rights of gays to serve openly in the military. Perhaps Tom has never ventured outside North Carolina, because if he has he might have experienced the vibrant art, culture, and cuisine that gay citizens of San Francisco, New York, Provincetown, Vermont, Key West have brought to these areas. Gay Americans are working at top levels of American business and industry and yes, Tom, they serve with honors in the military. One of the first bodies, recovered from the rubble of the Twin Towers was the gay chaplain to the NY City Fire Department - a gay Franciscan. For African Americans, the issue of gay marriage is difficult; but those African Americans who do support it, remind their brothers and sisters that it was only recently that miscegenation was outlawed by the SCOTUS. But homosexuality as a "cancer" - it's been heterosexual society that has brought us wars and discrimination. Maybe heterosexuality is the real cancer!!!!!
→ Right on cathar!
December 24, 2008 - 12:20 ET by Cool ArrowSince it's something people are born with, it must be a birth defect, huh?
And since people are already testing for other birth defects, wouldn't it be nice if we could test for homosexuality before the fetus becomes a real person?
America already aborts a higher rate of African American children than White or Brown. It's not like we don't have precedent to back us up.
Thank you for your deep insight.
<sarc> added in case idiots might think I'm just as serious.
Birth Defects?
December 24, 2008 - 12:27 ET by catharIf gayness were identified, in the womb, "you betcha" that the whole view of "the sanctity of life" would be revisited. And re the "America is aborting minority babies." No, "cool arrow" (phallic imagery?) it's women of color who are making their own decisions about their own bodies. In these very tough economic times, it's a decision that is readily understood. Minority women are capable of making their own decisions - or do you think that they are like little children who are easily manipulated? But gay gene identified - one way to keep Roe intact!!!!!
cathar
December 24, 2008 - 12:30 ET by botgdo a DNA test, in every single cell the baby is not part of the womans body. Forensic evidence has come a long way since the 60s time to catch up.
----- Radical Liberal
→ cathater
December 24, 2008 - 12:39 ET by Cool Arrowcathater "(insertive imagery?). Are you saying prospective parents shouldn't have the right to abort fetuses if they knew they would be born homosexual? It's not like those are real babies we're talking about is it?
You can't have it both ways. Either you're born with it, or you choose it.
Good afternoon Cool
December 24, 2008 - 13:07 ET by cocodrieBrilliant. My kind of humor, but my wife always told me my mind was warped.
Left-wing extremists are always ashamed to admit that they made a conscious decision to be what they are.
Ah. So, a tough economy justifies murder?
December 24, 2008 - 12:46 ET by Mike BrattonNever mind the tripe about "their own bodies"...
"Your honor, it was getting hard to make the rent and buy Junior's formula at the same time, so I cut him into little pieces and tossed the pieces into the garbage. You understand."
"If it please the court, I found it fiscally irresponsible to have to get a sitter every time I wanted to go out. Part of my budget-cutting involved pouring acid on my one-year-old daughter, then vacuuming up the remains. You understand."
"It was either the car or the twins. Yeah, there's that business about placing them for adoption, but who wants to go through the hassle? They were both boys, but they were still 'my body,' right? Besides, it was much easier to slice holes in the backs of their skulls and have their brains evacuated. You understand--the economy and all..."
For your consideration: Ethnicity aside, pro-abortion advocates are some of the most easily manipulated, easily deceived individuals on the face of the planet.
--Mike
www.thebrattonreport...
Your ignorance is showing
December 26, 2008 - 09:54 ET by Tom in NCFirst of all I do not fear homosexuals, second I was making an anaology based on the fact that homosexuals want to be accepted as normal. Years ago they just kept to themselves and then they just wanted to "come out of the closet", then we were just supposed to be "tolerant" of their lifestyle and not get upset when they want indoctrination of our children to accept their lifestyle, then they wanted civil unions but that wasn't enough, they wanted to adopt children, but let's not stop there, no they need to be married eventhough every poll taken and every election result says the American people reject homosexual marriage. I made the comparison with a disease because like a disease it permeates through our society at the weakest points and where it cannot permeate easily it uses the courts and aggressively infects through violent means, much like it is doing now.
Now I don't care about the sexual orientation of a soldier on the front lines, or of a person killed in the attacks of 9/11, or of the first responders in that same attack. I don't care about the sexual orientation of the chef that cooks the meal when I eat at a restaurant, or the artist of the painting or sculpture I see in a museum, that seems to be your hang-up, but when these same people violently protest and assault Christians because we will not accept their lifestyle choice, then I do start caring, and not you or any other liberal is going to take a free verbal shot at me or another Christian without a reponse.
I will never accept the homosexual lifestyle as normal, but at the same time I can pray for them and would never harm or advocate harm upon them, much the same way as you liberals say that you support the Military, just not the mission. The only difference is, is that I mean what I say.
Just for the record I am a veteran and have done extensive travels around the world and experienced many different cultures and you might be surprised the U.S. is one of most tolerant to homosexuals unlike middle eastern nations and muslim nations in general.
The one thing about your posts that is truly reprehensible is your total lack of respect for the opinions of the majority of the people of the country and that you side with the radicals who want to silence those opinions.
I forgot!
December 24, 2008 - 12:21 ET by catharTom, I knew your comment sounded familiar. I thought about it for a minute and then I realized - Mein Kampf!!!! Substitute Jews for "homosexuals" and you have the core of Hitler's world views. Nice...
Or how about substituting
December 24, 2008 - 12:40 ET by RR GOPOr how about substituting Jews for "Christians" or "neo-Cons"?
One of the 24% who thinks George W. Bush was a great President. One of the 89% who wants to bring back the stock and pillory.
Just so I'm clear.
December 24, 2008 - 12:49 ET by Mike BrattonWe're equating Christianity and other belief systems with sexual deviancy now?
--Mike
www.thebrattonreport...
Cool
December 24, 2008 - 14:08 ET by Delsayour points are well taken.
As for the "cathater" person, black women can do whatever they want but the abortion movement was aimed at black women. Margaret Sanger was a racisst and wanted to exterminate the lower classes. The easiest way was to make the "poor" believe it was their choice.
Murder is murder even if the victim is in the womb!