Only a professor, preferably a sociology professor, one with way too much time on his hands, could have come up with this one. His solution to the Detroit crisis that has the Big Three automakers on the brink of bye-bye? Unionize their foreign competitors manufacturing in the USA!
Now why didn't we think of that? Because we're not Jonathan Cutler, associate professor of sociology at Wesleyan University. His notion in a nutshell, contained in his Los Angeles Times column of today [emphasis added]:
[N]ot to tear down the historic and heroic gains won by prior generations of UAW workers. If there is hope long term -- for the unionized Big Three companies and for the UAW -- it rests in dealing with the unfinished business of the 1980s: unionizing the unorganized transplants.
Let's count the ways that won't work:
- As he acknowledges, most of the foreign manufacturers were smart enough to build their plants in right-to-work states.
- But even if starting tomorrow the boys of the UAW went to work 24/7 to unionize them and, against all odds, were successful, a labor lawyer friend tells me it would take six-to-twelve months just to be named the bargaining representative, at which point contract negotiations would only begin.
- But Ron Gettelfinger, the president of the UAW, testified to the Senate this week that without immediate help, GM could be out of business by the end of this month. GM and perhaps the other domestic manufacturers would be long gone by the time the union was able to oppose an onerous contract on its foreign competitors.
- But even if we could all clap our hands and impose union contracts on the foreign firms tomorrow, that would do zero to reduce the legacy costs for the tens of thousands of retired Big Three workers that are killing Detroit.
Bottom line: Jonathan Cutler's concept has zero chance of success. But a sociology professor can dream, can't he?
—Mark Finkelstein is a NewsBusters contributing editor and host of Right Angle. Contact him at mark@gunhill.net.





















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Typical pinko professor
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 19:53 ET by fitzfongTypical pinko professor parasite. Address the failure caused by unions by forcing more competitive enterprises into economy-killing unions. Talk about the equal distribution of misery! Remind me again why "higher" education is relevant?
"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan
fitzfong.blogspot.com
parasite
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 21:44 ET by nathanbforresttypical ASSISTANT pinko parasite ..
never look a gift skunk in the tail
Very socialistic. Don't
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 19:52 ET by Chris NormanVery socialistic. Don't have tolerate the inequal distribution of wealth - make everybody poor - except the few in government leadership...
To take a line from Bugs
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 19:54 ET by Rob BTo take a line from Bugs Bunny "What a Moroon"
Live Free or Die
Or better still,
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 10:18 ET by on-the-rocksan "Ultra-Moroon".
I have an idea
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 20:00 ET by katainkentlet make all the healthy people sick with something so there can be equal ground.
perfect... just perfect.
Not quite!
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 20:23 ET by Wilbur747Someone will feel 'unequal' cuz the other guy has a better, more exotic disease that costs more to treat! Another will complain that she didn't spend as much time in the hospital and had less IVs in her than another person.
Only one answer... a Department of Equal Illness, followed by a Fair Illness Act to be signed immediately by the Obamessiah.
Have You Been Spying On My Family?
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 23:57 ET by CGattonDamn! I didn't know you knew my sister! Or is it my son?
V/R
Clyde
"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC
professor-speak
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 20:23 ET by Mica the MagnificentSort of a 'spread the unions' mentality to go along with the 'spread the wealth' thingy.
Yup, he's a liberal/marxist professor from central casting: Tossled hair, trimmed beard, glasses that say 'I'm important, a know-it-all smirk, and probably patches on his official real-professor jacket.
Oh geez!
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 20:15 ET by Wilbur747This guy's a nutjob in a nutshell!
I remember a 60 Minutes show a while back about a Nissan plant in Tennessee. When asked if they wanted to unionize, a group of workers all shook their heads and one asked "why?"
He said he left Detroit mainly because of the UAW. He mentioned that he felt freer to talk to management, liked not having the union tell him what he can and can't do and liked not having money taken out of his paycheck.
Everyone said they loved the company and didn't need the union.
Stay out Toyota!
Let's expand on this wonderful idea, shall we?
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 20:23 ET by kdizzydazeHow about we give the Detroit Lions a 10 point advantage before every game they play to make things fair (level the playing field, ya know?) Additionally, Detroit will get 4 points for field goals, nine points for touchdowns and a point for each first down they get. That is about what this adds up to.
Seeing as Detroit is the city with the issues (Big 3 - spoiled, lazy POS UAW, former Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick and yes, the Lions), Why not force Canada to annex Detroit? Perhaps we force Detroit to secede.
Apologies to all you Detroit natives - but there is just too much material here
God made man, but he used a monkey to do it -- DEVO
Stick with what you know.
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 20:34 ET by mizflame98Just because the man is a professor doesn't mean he's brilliant. Remember, he teaches SOCIOLOGY. Why anyone would listen to his economic advice is beyond me.
Perfect Demotivator for the Obama Administration
http://www.despair.com/government.html
"Stick with what you
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 20:36 ET by Mark Finkelstein"Stick with what you know."
Wouldn't that be terribly limiting for a sociology professor? ;-)
Precisely.
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 20:49 ET by mizflame98Hopefully that would shut him up.
Perfect Demotivator for the Obama Administration
http://www.despair.com/government.html
This one is more apropos
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 13:21 ET by dmntd1This one is more apropos for Sen Obama:
Change
"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy." - Winston Churchill
Why do these all socialist
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 20:36 ET by midnight cowboyWhy do these all socialist college professors look like the kid that was given wedgies in the locker room and had to sacrifice their lunch money to avoid to being stuffed into a locker?
I was just reading
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 21:07 ET by Delsaabout this over at The American Thinker.
The "One" and his crew are about to distroy America as we know her so why not distroy everyting else as well?
The socialist way is exactly where the One and his pals want to take us and this idiot professor has the answers. He is a place holders in the halls of higher education aka learning!
God help us!
anyone seen the news tonight?
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 21:10 ET by katainkentmy husband just pointed this out. I am qualifying this because I personally don't read MSLSD ;)
Saw it!
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 21:26 ET by Wilbur747What a bunch of union crybabies! Maybe if they worked WITH the company instead of against it (like all unions) they'd be working!
Different story
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 22:01 ET by DanSchwartzThere's some things missing from the Superior Windows story: We don't have comments from the owners. This is curious, because a manufacturing business that is only off 25% shouldn't be closing up shop so quickly.
This story is worse than biased, because it doesn't even try to present the management side of the story; nor does it provide a recent history of any labor strife. Also, not published is the hourly rate and benefits the employees were receiving. Also missing is any analysis, such as the owners and union orchestrating this sit-in to pressure the bank -- Sort of an ACORN tactic on steroids a la CRA.
Without the facts this is at best a puff-piece; and at worst it is pro-union propaganda.
Great points!
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 22:12 ET by Wilbur747One can naturally assume that the writer is:
A) A lib/dem
B) A member of a union!
All-in-all, it's a typical crappily (howz that for a word?)written story designed to make us feel sory for the union working class!
Isn't unions part of the
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 21:45 ET by rbosqueIsn't unions part of the reason the big three are facing massive lay-offs?
If we want to save the big three, drill here and now baby!
Absolutely!
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 21:53 ET by Wilbur747GM pays more $$ in pay and bennies to people who are retired than employed! I don't know of any company that pays 80% of your salary, full medical for life car discounts and the right to vote on anything in the union/company after your retired for a dozen or two years.
Unions also use a job bank system. Employees get paid for NOT working and producing cars. Supposedly this is a hedge against GM from shipping jobs overseas. This led to one GM plant closing after spending something like 14M per year for these 'workers' not to work.
But hey! Saving jobs are what unions are all about right?
Yeah I heard about their
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 00:33 ET by rbosqueYeah I heard about their generous bennies. Wow.
Shoulda joined the UAW.
Me too!
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 00:39 ET by Wilbur747I coulda been livin' the high life courtesy of GM, AND the Gub'mint as well!
All seriousness aside, I challenge anyone to show me a union contract that offers so much gold!
Already tried in PA at VW
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 21:50 ET by DanSchwartzI remember thUAW organizing the VW Rabbit factory in the Harrisburgh area back circa 1975; and if I recall correctly, it closed about 1978 or so.
Our family business, an auto parts rebuilder and assembler was devastated by a Teamsters strike during the peak season, and closed it's doors in 1998 after 51 years... The union struck themselves out of a job.
Please visit my Home Page at http://users.snip.net/~joe/default.htm
I had to study labor relations in college..
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 22:05 ET by Wilbur747it's unbelievable how much $$ it costs just for a company to have a labor department with all the legal eagles and such.
Two main ways to maintain a unionized company's profit margin is to:
a) Reduce the work force through attrition (can't fire union people without crippling and costly strikes).
b) Raise the product price.
That's why Wal-Mart doesn't want unions cuz they know that most likely they'll have to raise prices, thus losing their competative edge.
I belong to a railroad union. It's worthless at doing anything other than pi**ing off the company and taking $126 a month and giving it to the Dems. I really think we'd get paid more with less hassles from management if we weren't unionized.
"GM and perhaps the other
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 22:03 ET by ckc1227"GM and perhaps the other domestic manufacturers would be long gone by
the time the union was able to oppose an onerous contract on its
foreign competitors."
Naaah, gubment would keep them afloat with bridge loans(NOT a bailout) until the foreign competitors fully unionized. Then the foreign competitors could line up for "bridge loans" too, which is a good thing, because they'll need them.
By the way, the Big 3 will get a bailout. It will be just enough to tide them over until Obama and the new congress are sworn in. The they'll get every dime they want and more, and no one will be able to stop it.
"Libs never let you down. You don't have to talk to one very long before the stupid comes out."
They just keep coming and coming...
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 22:19 ET by PewahI worked for years and years with scores of employees at Honda, Toyota and Nissan, both at production and white collar facilities. It is SO rare to find anybody there that is pro unionization. When you do find them it is almost without fail a person who is very low on the totem pole, poorly spoken and those not likely to advance much beyond grunt labor. I explain this because it truly takes only basic intelligence to understand why they don't need/want a union. The cons of implementing them at the transplants simply outweigh the pros. Those in favor of unionization never seem to understand this simple truth and can usually be relied on to vomit up the union organizer's lies.
The unions also regularly go after the larger suppliers to the transplants. Those suppliers know that paying the additional wages to their employees would negatively affect them because price levels for products sold to the transplants are very similar from one supplier to the next and any increases in costs due to unionization would have to be passed along to the transplants. The transplants would then in turn reduce their supplier's market share or simply de-source them. Neither the supplier nor the newly organized workers would gain anything by unionization.
The UAW should be purposefully ignored throughout this entire bailout discussion process because the current leaders simply have no objectivity and can never be relied on to think about anybody other than themselves. They will not make meaningful or sufficient compromises because they have each grown up believing that companies are evil entities who owe them livings. I have seen union workers in an automotive parts plant go on strike when it made absolutely no sense for them to do so. They simply did it because they believed their own propaganda.
Let the current Big 3 fail for now and then piece back together the best parts into organizations that can compete with the transplants (and the many competent offshore producers who are even bigger threats to the Big 3 in the future!)
Hear! Hear!
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 22:43 ET by Wilbur747Outstanding points! Let them fail! Maybe the UAW will be humbled and folks will wake up.
One thing I noticed with the union I'm in, those with lower education levels tend to be super pro-union, while those with college tend to always question the union and its practices.
In my company (Union Pacific Railroad) I'm one of those college educated Republican "union dogs" (as the dems call us) who think it's a good place to work (though not perfect) and feel no need for the union.
Yet the 'oldhead' unionists and the local chairman are always propagandizing at how bad we're being treated and that if we don't watch out, the company will just screw us beyond belief.
What I consistantly see are bad workers who constantly break the rules, getting into trouble andjeopardizing the safety of others and the union keeps getting their jobs back. If I had my way, they'd all be fired with prejudice!
Wilbur, I will use my
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 00:01 ET by TheBigBWilbur, I will use my brother's words to respond to your post. He works for the Postal Service as a carrier. He is currently 21st out of 24 on the seniority list. He will go to 19th just as soon as they find the 2 carriers who haven't shown up in 3 1/2 and 6 weeks, respectively, because they're out on benders, so they can fire them. He says the following:
"The best thing about a union is that it takes care of its people. The worst thing about a union is that it takes care of its people."
Artillery lends dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.
True but wait...
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 00:16 ET by Wilbur747till they file their greivances and he'll still be #21. I've seen it before. The unions will blame everything on the Postal Office and even go to court. They'll be back!
Where I work, you can text on your phone, run through a red signal, hit train (sound familiar?), car or person or cause a derailment and you'll be back to work in about a week even though it's your fault.
We can't get rid of the bad ones unless death is involved.
Is this guy related to disgracedMafia/Union lawyer Bruce Cutler?
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 22:28 ET by farstar99Shave his head and they'd look identical.
As we like to say in the South,
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 22:45 ET by thebutlerdiditthis guy is as useless as tits on a boar hog. But, hey, why not screw up the good thing we've got going on here, since they've already destroyed the plants up there? I read the link about the workers holed up in the plant in Chicago. This part jumped out at me:
Larry Spivack, regional director for American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, Council 31, said the peaceful action will add to Chicago's rich history in the labor movement, which includes the 1886 Haymarket affair, when Chicago laborers and anarchists gathering in a square on the city's west side drew national attention after an unidentified person threw a bomb at police.
This "peaceful" action reminds him of the good old days? I guess those bombs thrown at cops did add to their "rich history in the labor movement." It sounds like to me he's almost hoping someone will chunk a bomb or two, for old times' sake. I truly wonder if that whole city is not completely barking mad.
Did he . . .
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 22:47 ET by jcbeck1000just admit that not being unionized is an advantage for the other plants? I can't believe it. I finally found something that a lib says that I agree with. Unions hurt companies.
Yeah, it's funny how all
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 23:05 ET by fitzfongYeah, it's funny how all these lib academics freely admit that unions and tax increases are bad for the economy...yet propose greater unionization and tax increases in the very next sentence.
"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan
fitzfong.blogspot.com
Indeed! All good
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 23:08 ET by SvenIndeed!
All good Socialists like misery equally spread!
Hey Professor, I have an
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 22:57 ET by SvenHey Professor,
I have an idea you might like:
LETS UNIONIZE COLLEGES!
They already have
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 23:31 ET by ahusserIt's called tenure.
Change: When the winds of change blow hard enough, the most trivial of things can become deadly projectiles. From a Poster
Yeah, its getting tot he
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 11:27 ET by BDYeah, its getting tot he point that a tenured prof no longer even has to stand in front of students-that is what they employ GTA's for....
Academics want more federal spending at the collegiate level becaus ethen they will be able to remain ineffecient.
The transplants represent
Sat, 12/06/2008 - 23:40 ET by jpm100The transplants represent only a minority portion of the work required to make what is sold here. So even if they did, it wouldn't make much difference.
"As he acknowledges, most of the foreign manufacturers were smart enough to build their plants in right-to-work states."
The domestic auto company states became pro-union states. "The suits", as the union would call them, didn't have a choice in the matter.
Oh, I get it. The solution
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 00:02 ET by Clear thinkerOh, I get it. The solution to Detroits problems are to bankrupt all the other auto makers in the country too. Brilliant!!!
Shocking Update: The Left Still Hating Gov. Sarah Palin
Making Fun of AGW http://giovanniworld.wordpress.com/
I wonder........................
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 05:23 ET by old croif the rank and file workers had to vote on keeping or getting rid of the unions, which way it would go? That is, if management gave the choice of fair wages and benefits in line with the economic times or nothin at all, kaput, non-existance, don't let the screen door hit ya type of jobs. That is assuming also that the unions would even allow a vote.
Great Idea from a Deep Thinker
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 09:09 ET by Cleveland SteamerCleveland Steamer - great idea, Assistant Professor A.S.S.Clown!! Let's unionize the productive sector of the auto industry, drive these jobs out of exisitance, and then you can write another book on the subject that nobody will read, or care about.
Then, when the jobs are gone, there will be fewer people able to send their kids to college to be taught s.h.i.t. like you teach.
Sociology is a worthless major, and attracts people who couldn't get a job where performance is measured.
Professor, please continue to floss with t.u.r.d.s. and teach irrelevance.
been in a union
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 09:13 ET by tonemeisterand through some really ugly organizing campaigns(teamsters,ufcw). it's almost too easy to join a union.yet, there're numbers continue to drop. in maryland at least, simply get 1/3 of the proposed "bargaining unit" to sign union cards authorizing a vote. then it's a simple majority wins ie. yes or no to join the union. yes, the unions were instrumental in bringing about many of the benefits and safety regulations that we all enjoy. but they overreached, demanded more in wages and benefits than the jobs were worth. also this little nugget, if you decide to opt out of the union with a decertification vote, you have to hire a lawyer(s) to make it happen. no simple majority. and the company is forbidden by law to help in any way.
I'm a union member.
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 10:30 ET by RR GOPI'm a union member.
I am aware of the connection between the Communists and the labor movement early on and that the Communists regularly align themselves with this movement (the 'workers of the world unite!' thing I imagine). Also, the Democrats have managed to get union votes whether they actually do anything for them or not (usually the Dems do nothing but pay lip service from what I've seen).
I am also aware of the corruption and the demagogues that sometimes head unions. But these are present in any human organization you can think of.
Businesses regularly negotiate with their contractors, suppliers, and creditors so as to maximize their profits. Why is it out of bounds for employees to maximize their pay and benefits? To seek to increase one's pay/benefits to me, is not Socialism, but is at the root of Capitalism and the Free Market.
To me it is Socialistic to sit back and say, "Well, this is what my boss thinks I should get paid. Oh, OK, I guess he's right."
How is that attitude in the spirit of Capitalism?
Since when do we Conservatives believe in lying down and let someone else decide what we are worth, what we can have and can't have? We complain when the government does this, but never when our employers do. What's the difference?
That being said, it cuts both ways. If the company is suffering union membership must be willing to negotiate the other way-down.
And, I will always believe that companies do not exist to give us jobs, but in order to make a profit. If the company is doing well, then so should the workers and certainly the stockholders (often workers are stockholders), if the company is not doing well then obviously the workers will suffer as well.
And, that being the case, the government should not step in and 'bail out' these companies, because they will continue the same non-profitable ways as before the bail out. If they want to stay in business they need to adjust. But the breakdown comes with the idea that they themselves can bail out (parachute). Companies should end this. If the CEOs wants lots of $ their fortunes should rise and fall with the company's. However, it's the CEOs that are the only ones in the position (especially if they are themselves or have control over the principal stockholders). So, then as a matter of national economic interest, such situations beg for the Feds to step in and take over since they won't do it themselves.
Dozens of jobs. The Feds don't care. You can do what you want with your business. Millions of jobs. Now, that's a different matter especially if millions have already been lost. It is a sticky thing.
There are tons of American-made cars on the road. Historically the higher price built-in due to union pay/benefits has had little negative effect. You can buy many comparable foreign-made models at an even (or higher sometimes) price and the difference merely goes back to Japan or wherever.
But, yeah, this guy's a Commie knucklehead. The foreign companies will most likely close their plants if confronted by unions...especially in this economic environment. The union thing is only effective if the company doesn't have a place to run to where there are no unions.
One of the 24% who thinks George W. Bush was a great President. One of the 89% who wants to bring back the stock and pillory.
Businesses regularly
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 13:54 ET by fitzfongBusinesses regularly negotiate with their contractors, suppliers, and creditors so as to maximize their profits. Why is it out of bounds for employees to maximize their pay and benefits? To seek to increase one's pay/benefits to me, is not Socialism, but is at the root of Capitalism and the Free Market.
Seeking to increase one's pay and benefits is at the the root of Capitalism and the Free Market. In a free market, you have the opportunity to negotiate whatever terms are mutually agreeable. If you cannot reach agreement, you have every right and opportunity to seek employment elsewhere. "Collective Bargaining" is not at the root of Capitalism and the Free Market...it is at the root of socialism (the word "collective" should give you a clue).
If the CEOs wants lots of $ their fortunes should rise and fall with the company's.
With good CEOs, that's exactly the case. But how much was made of Lee Raymond's compensation package when he left Exxon/Mobil? His fortunes rose with the company's, but that didn't stop the class envy crowd from trying to make him out to be a greedy thief. He was no such thing. It's the typical class envy argument that Unions use to shift responsibility for a company's failure on others. Besides, your argument cuts both ways...if Union workers want more money, their fortunes should rise and fall with the company's. But the Union leadership is more interested in its win/loss records relative to negotiation concessions. They couldn't give a rat's a** about how a company is going to pay for these concessions...I got mine, pay me, end of story. The real failure of the CEOs has been in their inability to overcome the populist, emotional tactics of the Unions in negotiations with the cold, hard realities of business.
There are tons of American-made cars on the road. Historically the higher price built-in due to union pay/benefits has had little negative effect. You can buy many comparable foreign-made models at an even (or higher sometimes) price and the difference merely goes back to Japan or wherever.
That statement simply illustrates self-delusion of the highest order. American consumers often purchase Japanese vehicles over American vehicles because they perceive (correctly, I might add) that the Japanese vehicle provides them greater value for money. In many categories, for the same price, you will get a superior vehicle if you buy Japanese than if you buy American. With the Detroit automobile, the consumer will subsidize inflated union wages, pension, job bank and health care benefits. With the Japanese vehicle, that same money will provide any or all of the following: superior performance, more attractive design, fewer maintenance problems, better automotive service, better fuel efficiency and even options made standard (GPS, Satellite radio, etc.).
Bottom line, when manufacturers are not saddled with unnecessary labor costs, they can pass the savings on to the consumer through lower purchase prices and/or superior products. That makes them more competitive because it benefits the consumer.
The union thing is only effective if the company doesn't have a place to run to where there are no unions.
If that statement doesn't sum it all up, I don't know what does.
"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan
fitzfong.blogspot.com
"President Bush's fault"
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 23:14 ET by RR GOP"President Bush's fault" "The union's fault". So, are we going to start grunting pithy sound bites like the Liberals? Thanks for cherry picking my arguments. As for being 'delusional', yeah, I don't buy vehicles and have no idea what I'm talking about. Give me a break.
I have an '86 Nissan built in Tennessee. I have a '99 Ford. Nothing wrong with either of them and the prices were comparable even 13 years apart. If Japanese cars are indeed better than American cars, then that is due to design-many 'foreign' cars are assembled by American workers be they unionized or not. My Dad's bought mostly American cars all his life. He's not in the poorhouse nor stuck on the side of the road.
So, did Indie Mac, Lehman Brothers and all those .coms go under because of unions? I didn't realize AIG is a union shop.
Also, we're much better off with millions of jobs being sent to the People's Republic of so that CEO's didn't have to mess around with unions because they found it easier to go elsewhere with the government's collusion. Huh, never thought of it that way. But, then we complain about Chinese products. Nope, we're never satisfied.
We pay many, many times more for a Chinese-made product than what it actually costs to make. But that's just fine and dandy. Who cares if that money isn't going back directly into our economy by way of income taxes, spending and investing. Who cares if millions of Americans lose their jobs so we can save a few bucks-besides, as Dear Leader says, we shouldn't be greedy and be happy with what we do get.
We Americans spend billions of dollars a year supporting the NFL, NBA, MBL, NHL, etc....watching and cheering players who make millions and buying jerseys with their names and numbers on them. They're union. We spend billions going to the movies to watch actors, many of whom are millionaires. They and the writers are union. We watch the TV stars and their shows. They and they're writers are union. No problem. We're being entertained...that's all that counts.
But, when working class people get more than the average wage we get all bent out of shape, and say, "How dare they! They're messing up the country and costing me money!".
In-friggin-credible.
One of the 24% who thinks George W. Bush was a great President. One of the 89% who wants to bring back the stock and pillory.
Your response is so
Mon, 12/08/2008 - 16:25 ET by fitzfongYour response is so littered with defensive non sequiturs and tortured logic that it's difficult to know where to begin. Well, here goes...
I have an '86 Nissan built in Tennessee. I have a '99 Ford. Nothing wrong with either of them and the prices were comparable even 13 years apart. If Japanese cars are indeed better than American cars, then that is due to design-many 'foreign' cars are assembled by American workers be they unionized or not. My Dad's bought mostly American cars all his life. He's not in the poorhouse nor stuck on the side of the road.
So, what? Do you actually think that your anecdotal "evidence" constitutes proof that Detroit automobiles are of equal or better value for money to/than Japanese cars? Well, sir, the market certainly disagrees with you.
So, did Indie Mac, Lehman Brothers and all those .coms go under because of unions? I didn't realize AIG is a union shop.
They went under because of a combination of government interference and bad management...just like the Detroit-based auto makers. What you fail to acknowledge, however, is that a crucial aspect of management is in negotiating and properly budgeting for labor compensation/costs. The "Big 3" negotiated unsustainable contracts with the UAW. Why were they unsustainable? Because the labor obligations were out-of-step with the revenue generated from sales of the manufactured automobiles...the companies were effectively paying out more than they were taking in. Why? Because when an American consumer makes a purchase decision, his or her main concern is feeling like he or she got value for his or her money. All prices being equal, a car purchaser is going to be more concerned with the benefits he receives from the automobile than he is concerned with the benefits a Union employee will receive from the sale of that automobile. Which is better for my family and me? A car that gets good gas mileage or one that subsidizes someone else's artificially-inflated wages? Do I want a satellite radio, or would I prefer to pay that guy to sit on his a** all day, everyday, after he turns 52? Do I want a superior maintenance and warranty program with this money, or do I want to pay for his health care?
Also, we're much better off with millions of jobs being sent to the People's Republic of so that CEO's didn't have to mess around with unions because they found it easier to go elsewhere with the government's collusion. Huh, never thought of it that way. But, then we complain about Chinese products. Nope, we're never satisfied.
Your continual retreat to the limp lifeline of class envy suggests that you are totally unfamiliar with the concept of the "cost of doing business". You see, businesses are not in business to give you a job, to pay for your health care coverage or to pay you a "living wage" from cradle to grave. Jobs are created when businesses succeed, when the demand for their products or services reaches a point that the businesses have to add staff to help them meet that demand. In order for a business to succeed it has to be profitable. If its operations are weighed down by onerous taxes, regulations and labor costs, its potential for profitability declines. Why would anyone put their own capital at risk if they have little chance of making a profit? So, then, why are jobs leaving California, New York and Michigan? Could it have anything to do with the fact that other states have become more competitive...have created business climates that make it easier for companies to prosper. Yes? And what have States like Tennessee, Alabama and Nevada done to become more competitive? They've loosened the chains a little more than the net losers have...they've avoided over-taxing, over-regulating and over-burdening with artificial labor costs. This same principle also explains why American companies are often forced to "ship jobs overseas".
We pay many, many times more for a Chinese-made product than what it actually costs to make. But that's just fine and dandy. Who cares if that money isn't going back directly into our economy by way of income taxes, spending and investing. Who cares if millions of Americans lose their jobs so we can save a few bucks-besides, as Dear Leader says, we shouldn't be greedy and be happy with what we do get.
Do you really want to get into a discussion of the intrinsic value of money? What good is money if it can't really buy you anything? If something can be manufactured in China more cheaply than it can be here (your "they charge many more times what it costs to make" claim notwithstanding), it probably means that the item is going to be cheaper at the distribution level and cheaper at the retail level...meaning that more people (across all socio-economic categories) can afford to buy those goods. Unsold inventory doesn't generate revenue...and the one way to guarantee inventory will remain unsold is if it's priced too high. Meanwhile, sold inventory generates a demand for replacement inventory...which in turn creates more demand for manufacturing, which leads to more jobs...and even if they don't manufacture the products here, they certainly sell them here. That creates more consumer spending, more jobs and more income tax revenues. We call this "economic growth". Seems to me like you're more ready to accept "Dear Leader" than you think.
We Americans spend billions of dollars a year supporting the NFL, NBA, MBL, NHL, etc....watching and cheering players who make millions and buying jerseys with their names and numbers on them. They're union. We spend billions going to the movies to watch actors, many of whom are millionaires. They and the writers are union. We watch the TV stars and their shows. They and they're writers are union. No problem. We're being entertained...that's all that counts.
That paragraph was all rant, no substance...a huge non sequitur. Do you think anyone gives a rat's a** whether professional athletes, writers and actors are unionized? And there you are with that class envy business again! Union or not, professional athletes and actors get paid what they do relative to the perceived value that they bring. Professional athletes and movie stars are blessed with a highly marketable talent and/or appeal. Nobody would pay 5 cents to watch me play basketball, but some would pay 5 Grand to see Kobe Bryant play. UAW workers do not bring any special, irreplaceable talent to their jobs. That is not an indictment of the work that they are charged with doing, it's a simple fact. You can find more people capable of working an assembly line than you can find heart surgeons or great quarterbacks...this is why heart surgeons and star quarterbacks usually earn more than auto workers do. Angelina Jolie commands over $20 Million per film...her presence in the film is perceived to generate enough revenue to justify her compensation. Rest assured, the moment that projection fails to bear out, Ms. Jolie will be commanding no such figure...if she gets any work at all. Same thing goes for the NBA, MLB, NFL and, especially the NHL. The NHL has been a poorly managed league that failed to capitalize on a spike in interest because (who'd have thunk it?) of a labor dispute. All the goodwill generated by Gretzky's rejuvenation in LA, Lemieux's Hodgkin's recovery and the New York Ranger Stanley Cup run was undone within months as the teams failed to get a handle on spiralling labor costs...and the players failed to realize that this hockey madness was only a temporary fad. A league that once possessed somewhat realistic aspirations of eclipsing baseball and basketball now found itself fighting it out for scraps with the WNBA, MLS, Pro Beach Volleyball and Indoor Lacrosse. After the lockout was settled, the NHL continued to expand into unsustainable markets on the promise of huge expansion fees...all in an effort to recover revenue promised to disproportionately paid athletes. In short, we spend our money on sports and entertainment because we believe that we get a value for what we pay. And, the best part about sports and entertainment with regard to value: when the events fail to meet audience expectations, the "businesses" are allowed to fail. When we do not perceive value for our money in these enterprises, we exhibit our dissatisfaction through empty seats, bad opening weekends, booing. This makes the businesses accountable to those they are charged to serve. And don't get me started on Unions and movie production...you don't think that films "set" in New York or LA often get filmed in Vancouver or Toronto because Vancouver and Toronto look more like New York and LA than New York and LA do? Do you?
But, when working class people get more than the average wage we get all bent out of shape, and say, "How dare they! They're messing up the country and costing me money!".
Oh, yes, the world is begrudging union workers because they're "working class". Grow up. The concern is not that they get "more than the average wage", it is that they get more than they are worth. Unlike Angelina Jolie or the CEOs you seem to detest, most Union compensation is not structured to be tied to the success or failure of the company. If Angelina Jolie can't bring the revenues required to justify her compensation, the likes of Paramount and Universal will look for someone else who can...or at least they will pay Jolie a lot less the next time around. And if a CEO fails to ensure that investors realize a reasonable return on their investments, they'll vote him out. And believe me, investors would much rather pay millions in compensation and bonuses to an effective CEO than pay nothing to an ineffective CEO.
Try learning some simple economics before lecturing me on misplaced values.
"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan
fitzfong.blogspot.com
This guy reminds me of why
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 12:10 ET by MudhenThis guy reminds me of why my Econ Professors regularly mocked the Sociology Dept. The only "science" based on surveys, where the results can change every 5 minutes, even with the same subjects.
GREAT DEAL
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 13:06 ET by melpolIt is impossible for the U.S. auto industry to compete with Indias new throw away car. For those that are willing to compromise safety. The DISCO RACER 4 door six cylinder sedan $1999 + shipping charges. It is made to last 35000 miles.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/melpol
didn't want to touch on the commie thing...
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 13:10 ET by tonemeisterwhen you sit down with your potential employer aren't you negotiating for salary and benefits?. if you don't like what you hear either find a job that pays what you think your worth or, god forbid start your own business. i'm too tired to type any more... been fixing my tiny little x-mas lites all morning....
Where his opinions appeared say as much as what he said...
Sun, 12/07/2008 - 15:00 ET by ThalpyWhere his opinions appeared say as much as what he said. For some reason sociology professors have taken their once valuable discipline and allowed it to morph into something quite bizarre. There has been a battle between economics, psychology, and sociology for years with all the put-downs, jokes and the like. Sociology's characterization as "the painful elaboration of the perfectly obvious" is often well deserved. Professor Cutler appears to be more of a historian, but sociologists have worked well in the field of group dynamics, management, and collective bargaining for years. Unionization doesn't seem to be coming from a position of strength just now, but if the Obama-ites have their way, the secret ballot may disappear in the workplace, and then who knows?