NYT: Make The Mormons Walk To Wal-Mart

Photo of Mark Finkelstein.

In the social circles of the New York Times editorialists, it's OK to have one kid. Two is pushing the envelope. Three or more is déclassé, and a threat to the survival of the planet.

That being so, there's really no reason to let any car bigger than a Prius be built.  Doing so just encourages the unenlightened to overbreed. And so it is that in its editorial of today, the Grey-but-barren Lady suggests that as a condition of the Detroit bailout, "Congress could consider demanding that Detroit simply phase out S.U.V.’s and vans by a certain date."

Great idea.  Let the Mormons and others who take that "be fruitful and multiply" stuff seriously, like Hasidic Jews, walk to Wal-Mart or wherever else those kind of people go.  Lincoln Center is right down the block.  Frankly, we don't see the need for cars at all.

Update: Check Out The Hatch Family in Their SUV!

Jenny Hatch, of the Hatch family pictured here, has written to say:

We went to Utah last week and packed the kids in the car.  Tight squeeze, but we made it.  If we had a Prius, I guess we could have duck taped a few of the boys to the roof for the eleven hour car ride to Utah.

View a brief clip of the Hatch Family in their SUV here.  


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NYT brilliant once again

If Detroit is forced by congress to eliminate the SUV, Toyota, Honda etc will ramp up production and, once again, GM, Ford and Chrysler will be back in Washington asking for another bailout.

Mica, the law of unintended

Mica, the law of unintended consequences never occurs to them.

 

I hope Obama gets the

I hope Obama gets the message.  Everytime I saw him on TV going to a campaign event, he arrived in a big ole black Yukon.

Such is life

You are NOT supposed to notice that! And you should not complain that Algore uses 20 times more energy for his home than a normal house. No no! Unfair. In the new world of liberal-think, only YOU will be asked to drive the Prius, if you're allowed to drive at all. Comrade Glorious Supreme Leader and his cronies in congress will then get the benefits of all you have foregone... they get the big cars, they get the private jet rides, they get the fancy alligator shoes. You, on the other hand, get a hovel, two chickens and a koran. Welcome to life in the new world!

You are NOT supposed to

You are NOT supposed to notice that!

I know!  I am waiting for the Obamasquad to come knocking on my door!

You better!

Comrade Glorious Supreme Leader Obama has TRUTH SQUADS and they are coming after you 1/21/09! Be VERY afraid!

not here

The Obamaniac truth squad shows up her they'll get a little surprise

Did you notice...

Gun sales have skyrocketed? Local gun dealer sells out of handguns within 90 minutes of shipment arriving. Comrade Glorious Supreme Leader Obama will deign that all handguns are to be turned in 1/21/09. Be very afraid...

vans/suvs

The large vans to be outlawed are more fuel efficient than their critics claim. They carry 9 or more passengers, and are often used by schools, nursing homes etc. to transport people to school events and/or doctor appointments. The mileage per occupant is much higher than almost any other 4-wheeled vehicle.

Yes, but they look so tacky

Yes, but they look so tacky compared to a Prius, and give the wrong type of people the idea that it's OK to have large families ;-)

Well, Mark, what if the

Well, Mark, what if the people with large families use TWO cars to transport everyone? Or have to make TWO trips to get everyone where they are going?

Have they figured out how the effects of that would compare to everyone going in one van?

Probably not.  As I said, they have never heard of unintended consequences. They just think people will stop at one or two kids because no more will fit in the car!

I'm of the mind that since

I'm of the mind that since all vehicles have to pass a federal mandated emissions test every year anyway, one should be able to drive whatever one wants to drive as long as one can pay for it.  I have a Chevy Equinox and a Monte Carlo and I love both of them.  When I give them up for something else that will be my choice and my choice as to what I will buy.

WHAT?

Freedom of CHOICE? Not in America! Why should you be allowed to drive the car/SUV/tank/humvee of your choice? Algore said thats wrong so EVERYBODY in the world, well, except Algore, must walk or ride the Prius. No, no more free choice for you! Comrade Glorious Supreme Leader Obama said there is no future for America and we can only go downhill from here. Hope you like walking.

Everyone continues to dump on American Vehicles...

but no one ever mentions Toyota's evil devices...everyone remember don't they? The Toyota Sequoia,Tundra (which gets less mileage then the Silverado, Ford F-150, and Dodge Ram) 4Runner and LandCruiser.

If Congress decided to do something stupid like killing the American large truck segment the Japanese, and German segment should go the way of the Dodo bird also.

they also fail to mention

 the Porsche Cayenne S. All wheel drive,twin turboV8 that gets only 18mpg on a good day. Though from what I've seen from other owners, actual fuel consumption is between 10 and 15 when you're in start and stop traffic. 

http://www.kenrockwe...

but there's a lot of limo liberals driving these, here in San Jose, both this and the non turbo version. Never seen *any* conservative/Republican stickers on any of them. 

Nor have I seen a single one featured in ANY "ban the SUV" news article, or at any pump during some "anti-petrol" file segment. But I do see them showing an older Olds station wagon (with the 2.8V6, getting 20-25mpg) often.

"to call an illegal immigrant an "undocumented alien" is the same as calling a streetcorner drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist".

"You spend your money anyway you want and respect other's rights to do the same"

Two wrongs don't make a right

You're missing the point.  Why do people constantly fall into this populist, protectionist trap?  This issue isn't about regulating American manufacturing while leaving foreign manufacturers alone.  This is about government interfering in the course of business.  Rather than lobbying for the government to tie the hands of Detroit and Stuttgart, we should be telling the government to keep its hands off both.  Period.

"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan

fitzfong.blogspot.com

Wal Mart

Well, folks wont be able to walk to Wal Mart because the liberals are bound and determined to close all of them.

I remember when they wanted to build a Wal Mart in my end of the county.  It was near the boyhood home of George Washington, and all of the usual suspects, liberals and celebrities got all exercised.  The local commie rag led a crusade against it.  The ironic part is nobody in this county ever cared about GW's boyhood home.  They mined gravel off of it for years back in the 50's.  The only building standing is the original surveyor's shack.  But all of a sudden Wal Mart was dangerous to the site - a site nobody, the county, the state or the fed government cared about.  There were all sorts of kumbaya events held there to "raise awareness" and froo-froo wine tastings for the hoi-ploi set.  Wal Mart agreed to move about a mile down the road.  Now, the site sits empty, no visitors, no kumbaya events, no nothing and the editor of the commie rag has moved to Florida.  But we do have a Wal Mart :). 

at least

At least you have one there, the commielibs succeeded here because of sparrows, no less.

The chosen place for a Wal Mart Supercenter was about a mile north of here and a bunch of lefties claimed it was the major breeding area for Arkansas for the "brown spotted sparrow" ( nothing more than a flying pest especially in the spring). Our wonderful (unelected) county selectmen caved to them and started whining about the damage  Wally World would do to downtown commerce. they wound up denying  Wal Mart building permits for the land they already had purchased and after a few months Wal Mart moved to another county. Since then the town here has continued on its downward spiral while the town they moved to has thrived.

I own a 95 Chevy Astro that gets better milage than most mid-sized cars, It can carry 12 people and cargo as well. If they outlaw vans this will affect a lot of people because i have a habit of taking the elderly people in the "retirement villiage" down the road to run errands, we have no taxi service or bus service in this small town and these folks depend on me.

I know exactly which Wall

I know exactly which Wall Mart you are speaking of Misterbee241.  I was in it last night after enjoying a fine meal at Vinnies.  We obviously hail from the same area so you are not alone.

even better idea ...

phase out newspapers by a certain date ... why?:

1. saves trees like the enviro-whackos want

2. prevents the need for trucks/SUVs/airplanes for delivery purposes ... reduces carbon emissions like the enviro-whackos want

3. newspapers are an outdated, worthless and frivolous ... and getting rid of these newspapers is what the rest of us want

 

a simple but effective tactic ... take the same rhetoric liberals use on the rest of us and apply it to them ... they lose on almost every account.

business 101

Apparently the NYT wants to apply their own successfull business formula (pauses for laughter to die down) to the auto industry. For years the times readership has been steadily declining while conservative media has been rising. Rather than addressing the wants of the market and delivering some more balanced editorial and reporting they insist on staying to the left and lose market share.
Now they want to apply this poor model to Detroit. Instead of making vehicles that people actually want they want to use Detroit as a tool for social engineering. This of course is a recipe for disaster. For a business to be successfull it must address its customers needs and wants. When you do that people want to buy your product. When you don't give people what they want they will simply buy elsewhere.

Toyota and Honda are great examples of companies giving people what they want. That is why they are successful. Walmart and apple are 2 more. Unfortuantely liberals generally have never run a business. Sorry correction they've never run a successful business. And if they have they certainly never used liberal philosophy to run it.

Oh and there are others who can use a larger vehicle. Contractors, delivery people, car pool, limo services and law enforcement just to name a few. I think we should relieve every liberal of any car they own larger than a prius and replace them with a segway so they can feel good about themselves

Good Point Mg

"They want to use Detroit as a tool for social engineering": See Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac for social engineering example of lib economics. 

Change: When the winds of change blow hard enough, the most trivial of things can become deadly projectiles. From a Poster

Oh and there are others who

Oh and there are others who can use a larger vehicle. Contractors,
delivery people, car pool, limo services and law enforcement just to
name a few

Don't worry, when they have all the wrinkles ironed out, people will be allowed to "apply" for a bigger car or a truck, and the Central Planning Committee will evaluate the situation and decide if they "need" it.

Personally,

I'd rather Congress demand that:

*Coastal liberals give up their large houses in the Hamptons, Bel Air, etc. (Why do one/two people with one child need such a huge house?)

*Celebrities give up their yachts, limos, personal airplanes, huge mansions, etc.  If they care so much about the planet, let that care begin at home.

*Implement an extremely aggressive tax increase upon the entertainment industry; the money collected will be used to help the planet and the working man about which Hollywood and musicians like to crow so much.

*Make it mandatory that the neighborhoods in which the Kerrys, the Kennedys, the Pelosis, the Obamas, the Edwards, etc., provide affordable housing in those neighborhoods.

That's just a few off of the top of my head.

I especially like the

I especially like the "affordable housing" one...remember the snit-fit the Edwardses got in about their "slummy" neighbor?   LOL

I wonder if those "slummy neighbors"...

have children by their mistresses.

Excellent points.  I

Excellent points.  I especially love "implementing aggressive tax increases on the entertainment industry"  It would serve them right!

I think you're on to something here!!

Hollywood loves to make movies about greedy CEOs

How about redistributing that wealth paid to overpaid actors and actresses, directors, etc.?

 

So does that mean that you

So does that mean that you can have a lot of kids and send them to the government to raise, as long as you don't try to cart them around yourself?  What about my friend who has two kids, but takes in 5-7 foster kids at a time?  They're not fitting into a Prius.

Mark, this is an awfully

Mark, this is an awfully irresponsible article title you've settled upon.  I read the editorial expecting the columnist to actually make some sort of slight about large families and Wal-Mart, only to find a perfectly well-balanced piece which reasonably suggests we might take advantage of the inevitable Detroit bailout to deal with some other issues, like oil dependence and emissions.  To take the argument being presented here and project what you have onto it - which several of your readers/posters have of course lapped up as evidence of effete coastal snobbery - is just plain dishonest.  I generally enjoy your articles more than most on NB, but your hosts from Ithaca would be disappointed, I'd think, in this particular display of "journalism." 

I disagree. I think Mark

I disagree.

I think Mark just followed the article to its logical conclusion, and the sarcastic headline illustrates that.

He didn't claim  that they actually SAID they should walk!

What effect do you think that demanding that Detroit simply phase out S.U.V.’s and vans by a certain date would have on those with large families? 

Is oulawing bigger cars not an implication that no one should be driving around with a car that seats more than 5?

Title of Mark's article -

Title of Mark's article - NYT: Make the Mormons Walk to WalMart.

The only way he could have more strongly implied that the Times actually said something snide about mormons, WalMart, or big families in general would be if he'd put the part after the colon in quotation marks.  Discussing the impact that the editorial's plan would have on larger families is reasonable.  Constructing the title of your article to suggest that the NYT just blithely dismissed such families is a cheap gambit.  And look at how some posters bought right into it.

I don't have a strong feeling about the content of the article, but first, don't all but the most gigantic SUVs only seat five anyhow?  I used to drive an Explorer, and you could not legally seat more than 5, including driver.  You could put people in the 'way back', the open trunk area, but there were no seatbelts and you were technically not supposed to do so.  I see no reason not to regulate the output of wasteful vehicles just to protect the tiny percentage of people who might buy Suburbans and Expeditions and Hummers.  And of course, a lot of people who do so don't even 'need' them.

Obviously, commercial-use vans and trucks are a different story.

Well I took it as sarcasm. 

Well I took it as sarcasm.  I guess you can interpret it how you like.

Jason

 And of course, a lot of people who do so don't even 'need' them.

I don't agree.  When I take my child to school, I see many moms driving SUV's with maybe 2-3 kids in tow.  One might speculate that the moms really don't "need" an SUV for only 3 kids, but what I also see are the dads that drop off kids are usually in sedans.  So dads give the moms the SUV to drive to haul the kids around with all their bookbags, sports equipment, etc.  But when Dad wants to haul the boat to the lake or haul off the trash,  he uses the SUV.  Can't pull a boat w/a sedan or take a family vacation with all the kids, pets, luggage in a sedan. 

My point is that most people that have SUVs really do need a vehicle such as that in the family.  Of course it would be great if they were more fuel efficient or even better for families to have 3 cars: 2 small cars to drive everyday and 1 SUV for times that you need it, but most of us can't afford to buy 3 cars and pay ins. also.

Frankly, I don't think you

Frankly, I don't think you owe anyone an explanation for purchasing and driving the vehicles that you do.  Since when has it become our obligation to reconcile our personal purchases to the public?

It's nobody's business whether or not you "need" a certain automobile.  If you want an SUV, and you have the means to pay for it, why should you be shamed into justifying that purchase to others?  That shifts the power into the hands of people who don't have a stake in your affairs...kind of like what the "Big 3" CEOs are doing in front of Congress. 

"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan

fitzfong.blogspot.com

Oh I totally agree with

Oh, I totally agree with you.  I was just trying to make the point that most people who have an SUV really do have a need for one, but you're right, it is no one's business what one drives or why.

I have a neighbor that owns

I have a neighbor that owns not one, but TWO Hummers.  Does he really "need" them?  Probably not...I can't think of a reason why anyone "needs" a Hummer.  But it's his money and his choice.

My Part

Funny. I just bought a new TV. One of my friends replies was "Why do you need a tv THAT big?!?" (it's 52 inches :-) ).

My reply was "Who really NEEDS a tv that big? I wanted it, I work my backside off to make my money, and I had the cash to buy it. It's not always about NEED, sometimes, it's about WANT."

"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy."   - Winston Churchill

I'll decide for myself, a**wipe

This need vrs. want crap really drives me nuts.

Did Obama need to become POTUS?

I know Hillary wanted to become the senator from New York, she campaigned for it. But did she need to become Secretary of State?

So don't hit me with what I want vrs. what I need.

Screw you! (yeah, I needed to say that) 

Jason, I agree that given

Jason, I agree that given the content of the article, the title of the post seems somewhat hyperbolic.  That said, the small-minded, self-important, ivory tower attitudes exhibited by the likes of Thomas Friedman, Joe Klein and the New York Times editorial board suggest a desire to achieve far more than "changing minds".  These people have effectively annointed themselves arbiters of what consumers can and cannot buy...in effect, they've stated that if Americans are too slow/dumb/ignorant/stubborn to accept certain "realities", it is up to pseudo-intellectual journalists to convince government to force them on everyone...and to regulate what people can and cannot drive.  In other words, give 'em an inch, and they'll take a mile.  With that in mind, it's not unreasonable to conclude that their push for government control does not stop there.  So when does it stop?  Not to speak for Mark, but perhaps his headline is taking a page out of the Rush Limbaugh playbook...illustrating absurdity by being absurd.

But I must highlight something you wrote that I found a little troubling...

I see no reason not to regulate the output of wasteful vehicles just to protect the tiny percentage of people who might buy Suburbans and Expeditions and Hummers.  And of course, a lot of people who do so don't even 'need' them.

Doesn't this sound a little arbitrary?  What is your definition of a "wasteful" vehicle?  And why is it any of our business to determine who does and who does not "need" certain vehicles?  Businesses are in business to meet consumer demand.  To the extent that they don't, they fail...and those that do meet consumer demand succeed (and create jobs).  The parasitic influence of heavy government regulation (ostensibly for the "public good") only serves to force companies to build what the public doesn't want and consumers to make a choice between buying what they don't want, or buying nothing at all.

 

"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan

fitzfong.blogspot.com

Hi Fitz, long time no

Hi Fitz, long time no see.  Always good to hear from you.

Mark may well have been imitating Rush with this title - not that that's ever a good thing - but it still, to me, suggested a maliciousness on the part of the Times, the absence of which was only confirmed when I went right to the source.  That strikes me as irresponsible and I simply wanted to point it out.

I am all for consumer choice.  If there are existing products in the marketplace, I'm all for anyone purchasing them if they have the means to do so.  I see it as fundamentally different, however, to impose restrictions on the production of certain kinds of cars when there is a legitimate - if highly arguable - reason to do so which is in our long-term interest.  Again, I agree that this is arguable and that economic damage could very well outweigh environmental and energy-industry gains.  I'm just saying I don't think it's an outrageous thing to discuss.  And I certainly, vigorously, contest the idea that it's part some insidious plan to undermine the American family. 

On that note, how funny that some conservatives can use the same argument against regulating SUVs that they use against gay marriage.  The sanctity of marriage!  The Children!  The traditional, normative family!  It's the one-size-fits-all right-wing point of rhetoric.

Oooh, not sure I want to be

Oooh, not sure I want to be wading into the gay marriage (or was it gay adoption?) issue again.  I may spend the whole weekend on this site. :-)

I believe that consumers as a whole want the cleanest, most fuel efficient vehicles available.  This is where venture capitalists come in.  If they see an opportunity to make money through investment in new technologies, they will put their money at risk.  But venture capitalists have so far not invested enough to make the existing "Green" technologies competitive with whatever else is out there.  This would seem to indicate their lack of confidence in the technology's ability to attract overall consumer demand...so they don't put their money at risk.  This leaves government enforcement as somewhat of a last resort in making these technologies market-relevant.  I don't know if this policy serves the public interest, as it creates an artificial demand for an inferior technology when the market will eventually trigger natural demand for superior technology.  When private concerns start "betting on a horse", you know that they believe that the business plan is sound.

"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan

fitzfong.blogspot.com

As for your first

As for your first paragraph, yeah, I'm just throwing rocks at a hornet's nest at this point.

As for the rest, those are all pragmatic, well-reasoned arguments.  Food for thought.  It's unfortunate that there's so little consumer interest in super-efficient vehicles.  But hey, there's more now than there was a year ago, so that's something.

OK now I'm really going.

You are a silly, small

You are a silly, small minded man. There is no comparison between government mandating what cars we can buy and government refusing to recognize a homosexual relationship. Gays can still do what they want, when they want it. If the NYT has their way, we WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO WHAT WE WANT WHEN WE WANT IT. See the difference?

There is no comparison

There is no comparison between government mandating what cars we can
buy and government refusing to recognize a homosexual relationship.

Haha, yeah, I agree!  Yet, the Times' article, in the very title of Mark's critique, is skewed as an anti-family piece.  Gay marriage is often treated with the same set of (dubious, to my mind) concerns.  It is ridiculous, isn't it?  I'm just pointing out the tendency to use family values rhetoric as a one-note critique of anything perceived as going against conservative values; don't shoot the messenger.

sorry Jason

I agree with motherbelt on this one. The article passed on the idea of banning SUVs with little concern about its consequences and no "intellectual curiosity" about who actually buys an SUV.

Ah, so families with disabled children or elderly parents should be forced to jump through hoops to get a vehicle so that we can punish those who don't really "need" them. Nice to see you really believe in everyone having freedom of choice.

What else shall you decide I don't need? Let's ban soda since I don't need it and it leads to expensive conditions like diabetes. Let's ban electric heat since it sucks up too much power and force homeowners to start installing fireplaces again. Let's get rid of wasteful things like laundry dryers and force the plebes to invest in old timey clothes lines. But if you're diabled, you can always apply for a dryer at your local government ministry and hope that they're kind enough to accomodate.

I see no reason not to regulate

Here's you a reason off the top of my head: it's not the government's business!!!

 

I'm a typical white person.

 ...force the plebes

 ...force the plebes to...

And here you hit the nail squarely on the head.  So much of this is being driven by the elite snobs who are frustrated by the vanishing distinctions between the middle and upper classes. 

The same Mercedes that cost you $40,000 this year cost your rich neighbor $65,000 three years ago when he or she bought it new. 

If you want to lay down marble tile in your entryway, you can go to Lowes do it for $15 - $20 per square.  Someone like Elizabeth Edwards can order Italian marble and pay $150 per square.  Here's the kicker: there are maybe a dozen people in all the world out of over 6 billion who can tell the difference.  Imagine how some of the more pretentious ones seeth over this.  Of course they want to shove the rest of us into golf carts and one room hovels.

 

Ah, here we have it.

You just can't keep that elitist liberal nature in check, can you Jason?

I see no reason not to regulate the output of wasteful vehicles just to protect the tiny percentage of people who might buy Suburbans and Expeditions and Hummers.  And of course, a lot of people who do so don't even 'need' them.

What will you want to regulate next, hmmm?  How big my home is, since my family doesn't have children, how many bedrooms do I get?  Do I qualify for a plasma TV?  Or must I make do with a small screen?  It's awfully hot in Florida, where may I set my thermostat in your government regulated world, Jason?

You've been living the liberal life so long that you cannot possibly even understand the absurdity of the government regulating a market as huge as the auto industry.  Think about it....they are "too big to fail", supposedly.  So if the automakers manufacture vehicles people neither want (or need!!!), what is the logical conclusion, Jason?

Liberal lies, and you're just picking on Mark's headline because the content of the NYT's piece is clearly insane.

Blonde, your post makes

Blonde, your post makes clear that you have completely lost sight of what you mean by elitist, since all of the luxury items which make up your examples are things that only people with a shitload of discretionary income - i.e. the economic elite - could reasonably afford.

And as you apparently refuse to understand, the point is not telling people what they can or cannot buy among available products, its scaling back and setting standards for what gets manufactured in the first place.  

There is a difference.  I'd love to have a tennis racket three feet in diameter - I bet I'd miss a lot fewer outside shots that way - but there's never going to be one, because it would be excessive and mess up the game.  This does not mean I'm being discriminated against as a played who has a tough time returning outside shots.  Now, if such a racket did exist and I was personally disallowed from purchasing it for whatever reason, I'd be pissed.  That's the disparity in what I'm arguing and what you seem to think I'm arguing.

JasonC, You are still" free" to CUSTOM ORDER A 3' racket

You need to pay for time, materals, and find a craftman to make one.

..You would have the only 3' racket on the block..maybe the whole world.

how cool is that.

In the 50's my dad had one of 3 custom transister powered amps ever built.  He didn't buy it; it was on loan, free!

It had a hummmmm so he still used his tube amp. 

What you want JasonC is to KILL innovation .

check out my YT clip:

FREEDOM

and a page about the

(D)

 

Ooh, rough about the

Ooh, rough about the transistor amp, but he was still lucky to have the tube amp.  Those things are badass.  I always wanted a Fender Bassman - with a Les Paul plugged in, it's the sweetest sound an electric guitar can make.

Anyway; the difference is that even if a person custom-ordered a (ridiculously expensive) SUV that could hold all, say, 12 of their kids, it wouldn't be street legal.  Just like nobody will play a match against a guy with a 3-foot racket.  And for good reason.  Whereas an amplifier doesn't affect anyone else (except maybe the neighbors), automobiles necessarily have an effect on lots and lots of other people.  I just failed my state inspection because my tire tread was worn beyond the acceptable point (even though the tires were guaranteed for 40K miles and I only just hit 35).  Is it my right to say "No, I want to drive on these worn-down tires, you can't stop me"?  Clearly not.  As drivers, we accept that certain mutable laws must be adhered to, even if we find them annoying.

As for innovation - why shouldn't innovation be pushed in the direction of making cars that are beneficial for all of us in the long-term, as opposed to "how can I make this monstrosity of a vehicle EVEN BIGGER"?  

Anyway, if you find someone willing to build that 3-foot racket, let me know, it could really help my game.

wrong a tube amp uses twice

wrong a tube amp uses twice if not more  electric then a solid state one the heat generated by the tubes is pure waist. your outraged by wastfull trucks yet justify a waistfull useless amp cause you like it

Tube amps & such...

wrong a tube amp uses twice if not more  electric then a solid state one the heat generated by the tubes is pure waist. your outraged by wastfull trucks yet justify a waistfull useless amp cause you like it

False: A tube amp running in (so-called) Class D (pulse-width modulated) mode is upwards of 80% efficient. This is what was used in AM broadcast radio transmitters in the 70's, when power BJT's had way too much capacitance.

By the way, in 1988 as my senior EE project (I returned to school at 27 to get my degree, and I was actually two years older than my prof advisor!), I designed & built a transmitter amp for an ultrasound using a pair of 6146 sweep tubes. The prof expected me to use power MOSFET's, but gate capacitance was killing the rise time on the breadboard model I built for him, so one of the old-timer prof's quietly told him that I was right.

Punching out the chassis was fun!

Also, I didn't claim

Also, I didn't claim outrage at wasteful trucks.  Read the full thread.  I'm defending the writers of a NYT editorial for daring to even suggest we might rein in wasteful vehicles, against charges that this is an inherently anti-family position.

So, try to observe to fundamental rules for posting your opinion online:

1. Read what the other person is actually saying.

2. Learn to write a coherent sentence.

Comparing the international

Comparing the international rules of tennis to government regulation?
Could you be more assinine? If you want to start your own 3' tennis league, you are free to do so!

You are simply making a distinction without a difference. They aren't telling people what they can and cannot buy, they are just going to make it ILLEGAL TO BUY WHAT YOU WANT! Its the same freakin thing.

Oh for crying out loud!

Talk about totally missing my point (tennis excluded). 

Nice try at dodging though....a total whiff on your part...you look absolutely rediculous punching away at the inside of that wet paper bag of yours.

Jason, you're getting to sound dumber than a box of rocks with comments like this (and your subsequent tennis raquet example):

its scaling back and setting standards for what gets manufactured in the first place. 

Kindly explain for me, in your view, how the Congress of the United States is in any way, shape or form (1) competent to determine what gets manufactured and (2) who is entitled ("needs" per your earlier post) to purchase these goods.

If you insist on pursuing this fools chore....I'll stand you to a bet.  You buy the government mandated vehicles for the next twenty years, and I'll purchase vehicles of my choice, the design specs which will have been created by market demand. 

Enjoy your Yugo.

P.S.  I fail to see how air conditioning is an "elite" luxury item.  A plasma set, maybe, but at under a grand, not really.  What else did I cite as an "elitist luxury item"?  Unless you're reading things that aren't there....I think you've lost your mind having been beaten to a pulp over the stupid liberal position you've taken, yet again.

 

 

Explorers and Mountaineers

Explorers and Mountaineers fit 2 in the third row.  Total of 7 passengers.  Guess you never had a reason to get to the spare or you would have known this.

My Explorer absolutely did

My Explorer absolutely did not have a "third row".  Is that maybe a feature on the newer models?

Who determines "need"?

And of course, a lot of people who do so don't even 'need' them.

I agree with this statement inasmuch as the DINK (double-income, no kids) couple doesn't need an SUV to get from the subdivision to the office park.

But, then again, the DINK couple really doesn't "need" that 3 bedroom house in the subdivision, either, do they?  They can fit into a studio or 1-bedroom apartment in the city.  That's much more responsible of them, right?

Likewise, they really don't "need" to go to the grocery store every week.  After all, there are only two of them, so they can't possibly "need" to eat that much food.  They should go shopping every other week, or maybe every third.

Who cares that they both work, and spend what they earn in the way they see fit?  Jason, the NYT, and the government are better judges of what they "need" and can bequeath or withhold belongings accordingly.

I don't necessarily like the DINK couples who have big houses, fancy cars, and lots of disposable income.  I don't agree with many who choose not to have kids because they kids might get in the way of annual vacations.  However, it's not my place to say the DINK couple doesn't "need" or can't have the house and cars they choose.

For that matter - if a family has three children, can you fit four kids (with carseats or boosters) into the backseat of a Prius?  I think not.

And, while we're determining who "needs" what, why do people "need" to have 5, 6, 7 kids?  Why can't the government demand women take the pill or get sterilized after one or two?  I mean, come on, the government always has the best interest of its people at heart....

Why don't we all line up before the wise leaders at the NYT, and the Democrats, and Jason, and have them dole out what we can and can't have, based on what they think we "need"...

And why should commercial vehicles get an exception?  Business and windfall profits and the free market is bad, too, so let's just lump it all in together and turn away from any vehicle larger than a Smart Car.

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

MB

What effect do you think that demanding that Detroit simply phase out S.U.V.’s and vans by a certain date would have on those with large families? 

Also other considerations... (I think it was you that posted once about your husband's wheelchair??)  Helping my parents, we had many trips to the doctor, shopping, etc. and getting a wheelchair out of an SUV was much easier than having to lift it up and out of a sedan.   My back can attest to that.

Yes, it was me with the

Yes, it was me with the wheelchair. And lifting it up and into the trunk (or up and out of it) was a nightmare!

I'm only 5'3" and no spring chicken.  Much easier to lift it into the back of my Rogue and just slide it in, and pull it out and down! 

"your hosts would be disappointed"

Yes, JasonC, they are sobbing into their morning coffee. Mark will undoubtedly be receiving a tearful phone call as soon as they recover the power of speech.
That stick up your @ss must be uncomfortable, you should see someone about that.

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

Yes Choselife3x I'm sure

Yes Choselife3x I'm sure they did not actually care on bit.  I do find it a bit ironic however, that Mark just wrote a story decrying the lack of journalistic integrity and then titled his article in a way that blatantly suggests the NYT made an offensive remark about mormons and WalMart, even though neither was mentioned.  And why mormons, specifically, anyway?  And why are we to care about the Hatch family and what was no doubt a riveting trip to Utah?  Where did they come from in the context of this piece?

Anyway, Choselife3x, that's all I'm saying.  Great username, by the way.  Just 2 more and you'll be qualified to run for Republican VP.

Speaking of liberal hags.....

How's your mama?
JUST KIDDING. I'm sure Nancy has been a wonderful mother to you, poor devil.

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

Good afternoon chose

Remind me to never get on your bad side, you're good. Nothing better than a woman in sarcastic, insulting mode.

It's the Irish in me.......

We love leprechauns, but trolls we despise.

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

That was an insult? 

That was an insult?  Huh.  I couldn't really tell.  Something about a liberal hag inserted into that ever-droll form of comedy, the mama joke? 

Not exactly on the vanguard of rapier wit, but I'm glad coco enjoyed it at least.

JasonC

My browser hiccuped and double posted so I had fun with the edit option.
Perhaps you would have enjoyed a more liberal joke? Let's see....
So an atheist woman walks into a bar. A man holds the door open for her so she slaps him. Then she strolls over to the weakest looking man in the room and tells him to buy her a drink. She sucks it down, falls over, breaks her ankle and sues the bar owner. She takes everything the poor b@stard has, turns his place into a Planned Parenthood office and gives gift certificates to all her friends. One day as she is stepping off the curb in front of the Rainbow Coalition office she gets hit by a bus. As she bleeds out in the gutter, surrounded by frantically screaming queens, she says "why me, God?" The clouds part and a booming voice says "I don't believe in atheists".

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

James Earl Jones dosn't

James Earl Jones dosn't believe in atheists?

Who does?

After all, if an atheist crawls out of the primordial slime, grows a brain, and no one notices....will anyone care?

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

choselife3x, So because

choselife3x,

So because someone chooses (on faith) to reject the existence of a god that you choose (on faith) to believe in, their stupid?

HydrodynDM

When you are trying to defend your intelligence, use the spell checker.
FYI, I heartily agree that atheists/liberals come from monkeys. No argument here!
Homo sapien subsp. Liberalus uptighticus moronicus

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

choselife3x, First, I'm

choselife3x,

First, I'm not an atheist. (Does jumping to conclusions count as intelligent?)

Second, you didn't address my question.

But I'm sure your dig at my spelling error (which a spellchecker wouldn't have picked up on anyways) will fool people into thinking you did.

By the way, current evolutionary theory suggests that man and "monkeys" have a common ancestor - not that man came from monkeys.

Hydrowhatsis

First, I didn't answer your question because there is no point in explaining a joke.
Second, I think that anyone who truly believes that the universe and all life in it just 'happened' as a result of an incredibly long series of incredibly unlikely random events has such an enormous capacity for faith that they are simply wasted as atheists. Just think what they'd be capable of as Christians! Healing the sick, raising the dead, walking on water.....
If you do believe in evolution, I implore you, evolve a sense of humor.

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

choselife3x, Your joke

choselife3x,

Your joke suggested that you think atheists are stupid. My question had to do with that. I didn't ask for an explanation of the joke itself.

In order to determine if some event is unlikely, you have to have a complete knowledge of all possible outcomes. We don't have that when it comes to the origin of the universe (since our knowledge doesn't extent outside of our universe) so you can't call it "unlikely". Same goes for the origin of life. Since we don't know how common or uncommon life is throughout the universe, there is no way to determine if it's "unlikely" or not.

But just to show you I do have a sense of humor, here's a joke. A person on a website dismisses folks who don't agree with their religious views as stupid and when called on it, can do little more than poke fun at their spelling and make fun of their screen name. Will anyone care?

Oh wait. That was kind of stupid.

Yes. It was.

Lame too.

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

choselife3x, Really?

choselife3x,

Really? That's it? I was expecting a little more from a person of your intelligence.

Well, don't leave me hangin'. At least respond to my comment in the "atheist" thread. I look forward to your insight on science.

So agreeing with you isn't intelligent

Is that what you're saying?
Already responded to it. Your 3rd grade science teacher should have taught you better. When you see her on Monday tell her she doesn't have much time left before the break. Better get cracking.
Bop-a-Troll is my favorite game, thanks for playing.

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

choselife3x, No, what I'm

choselife3x,

No, what I'm saying is that you seem to have this amazing ability to not address any of the points in my posts to you.

You might want to check my history here before you call me a troll.

hydrodynDM

And you thought us liberals were the only ones that dodge questions and name call ;-)

He had my vote

shawn228, Nope, shawn.

shawn228,

Nope, shawn. Dodging questions and name calling is a characteristic of immature people (who suddenly realize they have nothing of substance to say) of all political persuasions.

Hey hdM

I don't normally do this, but I think you won that round...in spades.

hdM       5

Noobie   0

 

Hello Blonde, I bow most

Hello Blonde,

I bow most humbly.

I got a kick out of being called a troll. I instantly thought about your (now famous) comment and wondered if I was a better class of one.

well hydro

   if you were you would be  :)   

but you're not so you aren't  

----- Radical  Liberal

Perfectly said, Brucemeister

 

 

testing

  ;^ )      

----- Radical  Liberal

Cute

 

 

hi hydro

 In order to determine if some event is unlikely, you have to have a complete knowledge of all possible outcomes    

you know there is no event for which your postulate is true therefore you are special pleading your case   

----- Radical  Liberal

hi botg, I'm not sure I

hi botg,

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If I have a six sided die, then I have a complete understanding of all possible outcomes and I can say that the chance of a four showing up (assuming a random roll) is 1 in 6.

can you be sure it won't

can you be sure it won't land on edge?  or fall off the table?  or the dog won't eat it?

in origin of life we can postulate the conditions on earth 3.8, 3.7, 3.6 billion years ago and when life appeared and make approximations of what chances it would take for so many amino acids to first form at the right time in the right place and then assemble into all the right proteins all at once.  and then the proteins to assemble into the proper organelles at the right time in the right place, then the organelles to assemble into a cell.

it would be easy to show that as 10^500 chance (conservatively) while accepted scientific concensus is anything more than 10^50 is impossible       

----- Radical  Liberal

botg, Under the

botg,

Under the conditions that the edges are precise and the die can't roll off the table and there are no hungry pets around, then it is. You said no event and I provided one for you ;) 

But, if you include those other possible outcomes, then yes, I can find the probabilities for all those occurrences. (Granted, the dog one I can't since I don't understand how dogs work, but the other ones I can).

I've head of that 10^500 number before (probably from one of your posts) but the problem with that is that since we don't have a full understanding of Earth's conditions back then and specifically the conditions where "life" started and since we don't have full understanding of the actual mechanism for how it started, we don't know all of the possible outcomes of those interactions and so that number is just a guess.

 since we don't have full

 since we don't have full understanding of the actual mechanism for how it started     

therefore you assume a mechanism?  isn't that circular reasoning/

my point is we do know enough about conditions at the time,  just as we know enough about the dice roll to come to reasonable conclusions   (for one thing, oxygen was present and the only replicatable experiment Miller-Urey can not have oxygen present)

----- Radical  Liberal

botg, therefore you

botg,

therefore you assume a mechanism?  isn't that circular reasoning/

I'm pretty sure assuming a (naturalistic) mechanism is what science does. We have some understanding, but not a complete one. I fail to see how that's circular.

We have had this discussion about the origin of life before so I won't go into it again (unless you really really want to). As I recall, we basically agreed to disagree, which is cool with me.

hydro

 I'm pretty sure assuming a (naturalistic) mechanism is what science does 

and if the reality is not naturalistic do you not a priori eliminate truth?

but true we have been over this before so no need to re-hash, sent you a buddy request.      

----- Radical  Liberal

botg, and if the

botg,

and if the reality is not naturalistic do you not a priori eliminate truth?

Yes. But that's how science is. Wha'ch ya gonna do about it?

 

What 'religious views'

Have I expressed exactly?
For the record, I did answer your question. I think it takes a lot more faith to believe that all life came about by series of random accidents than it does to believe in 'intelligent design'. Never said anything about any 'religious belief' whatsoever. You inferred 'stupid' from 'grows a brain' (I suppose). Well, if evolution is true, those things obviously occurred at some point so what are you offended about?

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

choselife3x, Yes, I

choselife3x,

Yes, I understood your "faith" comment but then I responded with a comment about how you can't say the origin of the universe or life is "unlikely". That's the part you didn't address.

The only "religious view" I've assumed for the sake of my posts is that you believe in a supernatural agent that is responsible for life and the universe. If I'm wrong on that, let me know.

And you're really going to play semantics about your "grows a brain" comment? Really? Because no one's going to buy it. Particularly when you followed that post with:

FYI, I heartily agree that atheists/liberals come from monkeys. No argument here!

You know, a sign of maturity is the ability to admit when you're wrong. I say that because your suggestions/insults about me being a child suggest to me that you're a teenager.

you're wrong ;-)

So tell me then, what are the odds of all those things happening by chance? (I really am curious)
My point of view is this, atheism is a dead end. Depressing as hell. (see that, humor!:-)) If everything is the result of a series of random events, all we are is a mass of cells. The only point of existence is to 'nourish blind life within the brain', feed, consume, and devour while avoiding being devoured ourselves. Selfishness is the highest law of nature. 'Eat or be eaten'. Survival of the fittest. Ugh.
Jack London had a very pithy way of expressing it. Poor devil committed suicide back before it was fashionable for authors. If you ever feel like a little 'light' reading check out 'The Sea Wolf'. Anyway, I don't think atheists are 'stupid'. I do think you read a hostility into my post which reflects more on you than me.
For the record, I don't think atheists are going to 'hell' either, lest you read something into THAT joke. I'm rather inclined to think that the concepts of 'everlasting reward/punishment' were inserted by religious people to control the masses. There is no mention of either in the Old Testament.
But I believe that what we have both been talking about is that we really don't know anything for ABSOLUTELY sure. I believe that I will wake up in the morning, but hey, a plane could land on my house. I believe that while I sleep the stars will wheel in their courses, our planet will continue to revolve around the sun, and my children will wake up hungry and pester me like they haven't eaten in a week. But I could be wrong.... There are countless unforseeable variables, I guess I'll just take it on faith.

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

choselife3x, I have no

choselife3x,

I have no idea what the "chances" are for the creation of the universe or of life. Another member here (botg) mentioned a number but as I explained in one of my posts to you, since we don't know enough about either process, it's just a guess. And why you would ask someone you deem stupid is beyond me.

If I understand your view about atheism, it's basically just an expression of the view that there should be some point to existence. That really isn't so much a comment on atheism as it is a comment on why you aren't one. I guess to you, the view that there is no point is a "dead end". I don't agree. Strictly, I'm an agnostic when it comes to God, but in the end, I don't think life has any purpose or meaning outside of what we decide to assign it. But I hardly see my world view as a "dead end". If you disagree, that's cool.

You seem to suggest that if you don't believe in God, you are reduced to being animalistic. Again, I disagree.

But, as you suggest, ultimately, your view on the big picture is a matter of faith. This I do agree with.

If you say your original post wasn't a dig at the intelligence of atheist, OK, I'll accept that. But all of the other points I brought up in my posts had nothing to do with that.

agnostic

I believe this means 'one who believes in an impersonal spiritual being who leaves us strictly to ourselves'? As in, no meddling/interference in human events? Never said THAT was a dead end, just straight evolutionary theory.
When you said scientific theories can't be proven that came off to me like you thought everybody who ever came up with a wild@ss idea, the earth is round, what goes up must come down, an object in motion...etc wasted their time trying to prove those ideas.
After all, if you change the parameters the whole game changes. Saying that no one had EVER 'proven' a theory was what prompted the stupid remark. You see, to me, everytime I flip a light switch, cook dinner for my family, drive my car, or show my toddler a rainbow scientific theories are being 'proven'. You are much more abstract than I in your use of the word proven.

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

choselife3x, A

choselife3x,

A theological agnostic is someone who doesn't have an opinion either way about the existence of God (or any supernatural supreme being). I don't believe in God but I also don't deny the possibility that one exists.

The examples you bring up (flip a light switch, etc...) are examples of empirical evidence. Theories are created to explain them. However, strictly speaking, empirical evidence can never provide proof for a theory that uses induction.

That's why your previous comment about jumping out a window doesn't work. I don't deny that when you release objects near the surface of the Earth, they fall. My point is that any theory developed to explain that phenomena can't ever be "proven" as the one and only absolutely true explanation.

This falls under the topic of the "Problem of Induction" and it's something that's bugged a lot of people over the years. But as of now (as far as I know), no one has provided a "fix" for it.

D@mn, double post again

That's what started this whole *@!$>*!! thing in the first place! Stomp, stomp, stomp, SLAM

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

And here we have it

You and I meant two entirely different things in our use of the word 'prove'.

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

Just for fun......

Try saying 'frantically screaming queens' three times fast.

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

Qualified for Rep VP

And don't forget Democratic Speaker of the House!
Oh, that's right, I'm not a barking moonbat. (my apologies to dogs, celestial bodies, and things that go squeak in the night.)

In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.

You read, but do not see

"a perfectly well-balanced piece which reasonably suggests we might take
advantage of the inevitable Detroit bailout to deal with some other
issues, like oil dependence and emissions.
"

You read, but do not see.  What's reasonable about forcing failing automobile manufacture to produce the poorest selling models available?  That would guarantee the total destruction of the American automobile manufactures.  Destroying the very industry you're trying to save is NOT reasonable suggestion, is it?

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

to everyone on this thread:

Cobra: Actually, I believe SUV sales are rather low at the moment.  Cars like the Prius are undoubtedly going to gain marketshare in the coming years.  A measure like this would be a much needed shot in the arm.  Someone earlier in this thread mocked Thomas Friedman, but I think his perspective is right on (as usual) concerning this issue.

To everyone else: I'm not really interested in debating the auto industry.  I don't have a real strong stance on this; I'd be thrilled to see fewer SUVs out there, but indeed, buy whatever you feel you need.  I never said you shouldn't be allowed to buy what's available.  But I see no problem with the government bailout restricting what becomes available.  I mean, there are no double-decker cars on US highways, right?  Well if there were, we could certainly fit more passengers.  So by not allowing double-decker cars to be deemed street legal, are we as consumers being discriminated against?  Of course not.

But again, I don't have a huge stake in this - it just seems like common sense to me.  My stake is in pointing out the unfair way in which Mark's critique is written.  If you want to make the issue about family's who "need" SUVs, fine.  That's reasonable.  It is not reasonable to falsely imply that the NYT raised that issue only to snidely dismiss it. 

Let the market decide

"Cars like the Prius are undoubtedly going to gain marketshare in the coming years."

I hear this exact same prediction in the 70's about the "sub-compact" models that were offered during, and shortly after,  the "oil crisis."  What happened?  Did all the predictions come true?  Did America 'embrace the future?"  Did the sales of such cars eclipse that of bigger models?  No, just the opposite happened.  The purchased models got bigger and bigger, didn't they?

Why is that, if it was in America best interest to drive "sub-compacts" in order to secure our oil supply an protect the environment (those arguments were used in the 70 and 80's too, remember)?  Could it be that Americans like the "convenience" of being able to transport both people AND cargo in the same car, at the same time?  Could it be that Americans don't want to make SEVERAL trips to accomplish a given task when being able to make one trip is far more effective?  Could it be that Americans are not as stupid as some people believe we are?

It's obvious that, when the Government doesn't force "choices" on people through mandates, that the markets themselves  are capable of deciding what is "best" for Americans, and that Americans themselves want freedom of choice in order to decide for themselves whit is "best" for them.  If that involves choosing bigger models, then so be it. Who are YOU, or anyone else for that matter, to make those choices for us?

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

Jason, I fully respect

Jason,

I fully respect the fact that your intention was to discuss the narrow issue of whether or not Mark's title was misleading, but I really want to understand your point-of-view from an economic perspective, as you have (at least in my view) suggested that government intervention (interference) in the standards of automobile manufacturing is a good thing.  This is especially worrying as nobody in Congress advocating for this unprecedented control over an industry knows the first thing about operating an automobile business (or any other business, for that matter).

If SUVs are in such low demand and the Prius will "undoubtedly" gain market share over the next several years, why should government force the Big 3 CEOs to commit to phasing out SUVs and phasing in hybrids?  What would be the need for the "shot in the arm"?  Wouldn't such decisions be self-evident?  For purposes of self-preservation, the car companies would have drawn the conclusions on their own and set about making the necessary changes.  Besides, when you have to factor in the prohibitive costs that come from overly-inflated union wages, pensions and benefits into the price of the automobile, your inclination is going to be to manufacture the most popular vehicles with the greatest profit margins...SUVs.  The problem is that increased worldwide demand for oil coupled with the eco-lobby's insistence on stopping any attempts to increase supply led to an artificially soft demand for SUVs and an artificially increased demand for hybrids.  If supply and demand for oil are in equilibrium, consumer demand for SUVs dwarfs demand for hybrids.  As it stands, a free market will view a hybrid as inferior to an SUV...so the self-described "environmental" movement knows that it cannot compete in the marketplace unless the hands of its competitors are tied.  Those who wish to succeed yet who lack the ability to compete in a free marketplace will turn to government in hopes that the government will "level the playing field".  Not by lifting unsuccessful enterprises up, but by tearing successful enterprises down.  I just don't understand how this can be seen as a good thing.

-fitz   

"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan

fitzfong.blogspot.com

Fitz, see my more detailed

Fitz, see my more detailed response to you somewhere else here.  In sum, I wouldn't call it a good thing, per se; it'd be awfully nice if the problems which it intends to address didn't exist, if we had unlimited domestic access to fuels and large vehicles ran on sunshine and unicorn farts, but I see no problem with raising and discussing the issue at this juncture.  I wouldn't even say I support it, exactly, though I've found myself here in the position of defending it simply because I'm not sputtering in outrage about it - more that I don't think the Times is out of line for raising it, especially since it's not like they thought up the idea.  It's going to be a hot topic whether the Times champions it or not.

Anyway, I gotta go get some serious work done before the weekend begins.  Hope to see you around here some more Fitz.  I believe it was just about this time last year that we had our first blow-out argument about...well, I don't even remember.

I think you're right about

I think you're right about that, Jason.  Hey, do you suppose I could get that flat screen TV more cheaply this year? ;-)

"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan

fitzfong.blogspot.com

um...

How exactly do you take a child in a wheelchair and stuff them into a Pinto to take them to a doctor's appointment? How do you carpool with friends to work if your car only sits two people?

Next they'll be telling us Meals on Wheels should force old people to walk to a soup kitchen because all that driving in unnecessary. 

 

I'm a typical white person.

Silly Candance...

Wheelchair-bound people and the elderly are an unnecessary annoyance in a new, enlightened, liberal world.

"Libs never let you down. You don't have to talk to one very long before the stupid comes out."

Yeah

Yeah, who are we to worry about the safety and well-being of our families, and woe to those of us who care for the disabled or elderly.  Don't we know that's interfering with *our* own personal happiness and fulfillment.

/sarcasm

ckc1227 is right.  Liberals never think about the consequences for the truly vulnerable in society, nor how their tyrannical mandates actually stand in opposition to what liberalism *used* to stand for, and mimics the tyranny of the socialist and communists and others who caused death and destruction in the name of the "common good"...

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

Scratch that... Liberals

Scratch that... Liberals never think about the consequences period!

This is easier than the alternative

Since people act unfavorably to the left's dream to either require "parent licenses" or 1- or 2-child limits, watch for them to work toward policies that make it difficult to manage large families.

Cars are just the start.

Soon, they may demand that no house be built bigger than 2 or 3 bedrooms.  They've already tossed around the idea of a pollution tax for more children (but, no worries, a single childless blogger has bequeathed her "child credits" to me so we can have the 4 children we'd like!)

All "for the planet" and what not.  But remember, these are the folks who are pro-CHOICE, unless your "choice" is against their world view, and are for liberal ideals which - increasingly - reflect the tyrannical tactics of despots and dictators who've long been dispatched by lovers of freedom.

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

well...it's not rocket science.

Usually people with SUV and Vans have either cargo or passengers to run around.

I'll take ya back to summer. Morning rush hour traffic. I'm sitting a the car (ford focus wagon) with my hubby. Traffic is at a stand still. We are surrounded by a sea of small to mid size cars. Hardly any trucks or vans.

I look around and see each car only has a driver in it. Gas was 4.50 a gallon. I asked? "No carpooling?"

Great, so if we make nothing but sh!t boxes on wheels, we will have even more of them on the road transporting the people usually in vans, trucks, ect.

Or maybe the USSA will let those families have special permits to buy one at 50 thousand dollars. Or maybe the USSA will let a guy get a pick up truck, suv with a special permit at double the going price.

The manufacturers would have to charge more for the vehicle if it's not in production after all.

 

 

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

guess us parents of multiples

have to hand one back in to the hospital or pay carbon penalties?

we fill our (Ford piece of ****) minivan up once a month.  We do all our errands at once on each Saturday morning.  We try to be as responsible with our gas money as we can to maintain a reasonable budget and for that, I guess we also help the environment. 

This solution for the people who choose to drive something more than a lawnmower engine with a rollcage is not to stop making people movers.  How about just build a better car.

"If you think you're finished shopping for Christmas, why not start on next year"

Good morning DrB and katain

I believe the mormon comment has a direct relationship to the comment by JasonC's comment calling Wal-Mart shoppers white trash. Large families are viewed as irresponsible. It is an elite left-wing extremist insult to common Americans.

Katain, my mom and dad had eleven, one at a time, and we are catholic. God bless you, a loving family is a wonderful thing. However under the new administration you may be in for a windfall birth tax.

But the Times article isn't

But the Times article isn't even about large families.  This is all being read into it as inherently part of the NYT's dastardly plan to wipe out SUVs and thereby disrupt traditional family life.  Pure paranoid conservative fantasy, as surely as my misguided comment about WalMart shoppers (and actually I reserved the term in question for a very specific sort, not all WalMart shoppers) was fed into by liberal stereotypes.

ok then who are they talking about?

Congress could consider demanding that Detroit simply phase out S.U.V.’s and vans by a certain date.

So... we, as responsible Americans look to that 'date' and 'phase out' the family size by that date too?  Good thing we stopped at 3.  My doc said the next time I got PG it would likely be triplets instead of twins -- or more.  Guess we're ahead of the curve.

the writer of this NYT article is short sighted at best.  AT BEST!

"If you think you're finished shopping for Christmas, why not start on next year"

But Kata, don't you see

But Kata, don't you see that there's a big difference between reading the editorial and saying "But wait, let's discuss the impact on large families, etc etc" and saying "The New York Times is clearly anti-family for even suggesting this"?

this article

is being touted for exactly what it is.  Short sighted.

If you are reading more into it than that,  I can't help you, nor will I argue with you.  Perhaps you need to take it up with Mr. Finkelstein personally.

"If you think you're finished shopping for Christmas, why not start on next year"

JasonC

The intent of the article is obvious

You should change your name to "Deluded Liberal" or "Wrong Again"

Really coco?  To undermine

Really coco?  To undermine family life?  That's just absurd.  So what about families with 9 or 10 kids?  Should they feel they're being discriminated against because there aren't minivans out there with 4 rows of seats?  Or Expeditions with an overhead compartment to hold the little ones?  Where does this end?  The auto industry, and the taxpayers who are about to save it, do not owe you the availability of a certain kind of car.  

JasonC WRONG AGAIN

The auto companies are in business to make money. Is that too difficult for your limited intellect to comprehend? If they can't produce a product that is profitable they should not be in business. The United States government should not be in the auto business nor should it be interfering with it.

You appear to want the government to run the the auto, banking, and all other businesses in America. Capitalism doesn't work that way.

we have to get back to letting the free market decide what is and what is not manufactured without interference from government and liberal media.

Undermining family life? They and you had some nasty things to say about Sarah Palin's family.

As usual you missed the point completely.

Coco: "Large families are

Coco: "Large families are viewed as irresponsible. It is an elite left-wing extremist insult to common Americans."

You said this right here in this thread.  And that's the implied theme of Mark's article.  So forgive me for thinking that was what you were talking about here.

And I never said anything nasty about Sarah Palin's family.  I dare you to go find where I did.  I did, repeatedly, say that the fact that she has a nice family and that her kids play soccer is an utterly stupid reason to believe she'd be a good VP.  But that's a comment directed at her supporters, not her. 

5 or 6 Cars

"So what about families with 9 or 10 kids? "

I guess that the NYT's feels it's ok that the family takes 5 or 6 trips, or use 5 or 6 cars, to transport that family whenever they travel together, correct?  Why else would they want Congress to MANDATE the sales of smaller cars through the BANNING of larger car sales?

It seems to me that you're INTENTIONALLY ignoring the intent of the NYT's "ope/ed," which is the BANNING of large vehicles in order to FORCE the purchase of smaller vehicles, no matter what the  NEEDS of the people who purchase those vehicles are.

In other words, to hell with the will of the people, let the will of Congress prevail. After all, it's in our "best interest."

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

the BANNING of large

the BANNING of large vehicles in order to FORCE the purchase of smaller
vehicles, no matter what the  NEEDS of the people who purchase those
vehicles are.

Well that's certainly a good point, but again, what if I "need" a vehicle that holds 10 passengers?  Isn't it unfair that that's not available to me short of buying a bus?  Of course not.  Suggesting that we might consider taking advantage of the bailout in order to address other problems is not that big of a deal.

If you need it, buy it

"Well that's certainly a good point, but again, what if I "need" a vehicle that holds 10 passengers?"

If you need one, then buy a Dodge Caravan (you know, one of those SUV's that would be banned).  Mine holds 10, comfortably.  The average Bus, on the other hand, holds 30, comfortably.  If you need to seat that many, then you can buy one of these instead..  

My point is, there are choices available to suite just about every need.  If the author of this op/ed had his way, those choices would NOT be available to the "average" American. 

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

I take one step further--if

I take one step further--if you want it buy it.

You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?

That's not "taking advantage"

"Suggesting that we might consider taking advantage of the bailout in order to address other problems is not that big of a deal"

Mandating the sales of small cars is not "taking advantage" of a situation.  It is instead, TAKING CONTROL over the choices that Americans can make.  It's the Government taking advantage of the American people itself in order to force an unpopular mandate upon an unwilling citizenry. That's a BIG difference!

Obama: My job is above my pay grade

What don't you get that the

What don't you get that the government can completely steer the market by regulations, taxes, and laws?

Are you blind to the fact?

The mayor of New York wanted (something like) an eight dollar toll on cars being driven into the city. Why? Because NYC had to many cars with in the limits! He was trying to curb the amount of cars in the city.

Same goes for the goverment telling the automakers they can have the bailout, IF they develope green cars. NEWSFLASH, no one wants them! If they did the market would let you know.

Rumors are Obama will raise the taxes on ammunition (whatever the figure is irrelevant to the discussion). Why? He wants to restrict gun ownership. If you can't have the bullets for your gun what good is the gun.

How many more examples do you need? The NYT thinks SUV are killing the world. Large families need large automobiles, therefore limiting/banning the SUV may make some think twice about having large families.

I don't know how this point could be made more clearly.

You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?

What does this have to do with Mormons?

I don't see Mormons mentioned in that NYT article. Is it supposed to be ironic because Mormons have large cars or because Mormons supposedly go to Walmart. I really don't get it.

Mormons usually have large

Mormons usually have large families.

Why the Mormons?

If they refered to or used a picture of a single elderly woman from the upper east side with her poodle dressed as Mr. Peanut it would not fit the story.

Therefore, a large family of Mormons were a good choice.

(Sorry kid. I'm in a bad mood today. I owe you one.)

what about the handycapped

I need my truck no subcompact can carry my powerchair I guess us disabled should rot at home or the good of the enviroment

USA Population Growth Not a Problem

Most liberals are stunned when you inform them that population growth in the United States is less than 1% annually.  Population growth is not a problem in the USA.  If anything we need more of it.

Exactly!

I believe that without population growth the current social security/ entitlement pyramid scheme will come to a screeching halt.  It would be interesting to see what impact to government funding would arise if the population of the US stabilized or decreased. I am fairly confident that the reason many politicians are not against immigration is because they realize the pyramid scheme will not work without more paying in at the bottom.  When the pyramid is upside down and less pay in than take out then trouble happens.  So where do these NY socialites believe the money is going to come from when half the population of the US are retired and half are working while the debt from the current 'lending' is demanding its interest?  In Europe they are doing whatever they can to try and encourage reproductive activity yet the cars are too small, the apartments are too small,  the taxes are too high to afford to raise a bunch of kids meanwhile, many of the women have no interest or incentive to settle down with a family.  We need big cars - really big cars with spacious back seats if we want to finance all the social programs that the Dems want to enact at the same time boomers are checking out of the rat race.