The screencap captures it nicely: Heather Wilson, smiling. Robert Wexler, mouth agape. On this afternoon's Hardball, the feisty, brilliant [bio: high honors Air Force Academy grad, Rhodes Scholar] GOP representative from New Mexico took on the duo of the combative congressman from Florida and host Chris Matthews, and walked away a winner. The subject was Obama's Berlin speech, and by extension his presidential qualifications.
You'll find excerpts below, but they don't do begin to do justice to Wilson's brio and the coolness under verbal fire she displayed. That's why I'd strongly encourage readers to view the video. Wilson kicked off her tour de force in commenting on a clip of Obama in his Berlin speech proclaiming that various walls, including one between American and Europe, "cannot stand" and must be torn down.
HEATHER WILSON: Barack Obama has always had a great charismatic style, but the substance has never been there and his inexperience is one of the things that troubles a lot of people. Saying something like there's a wall between the United States and Europe? We've been allies with Western Germany and with Germany as a whole since the end of the Second World War. NATO is one of our strongest alliances. And so, what's he talking about? What's the substance behind that --CHRIS MATTHEWS: He's talking about the fact that Europeans, Europeans hate George Bush.
WILSON: I think one of the things he tried to do in Israel was to reassure Americans that the mistakes he made with respect to Middle East policy because of his experience maybe they shouldn't be concerned about that. He went there because of his inexperience to try to give himself some kind of kind of patina of credibility.MATTHEWS: Are you say the United States has had a good relationship with Europe in the last seven years?
WILSON: Absolutely. Yes. The US relationship with NATO, with the UK, our relationship with the United Kingdom has never been closer, and that's been spurred by common, mutual interest. I used to serve at NATO when there were 16 NATO countries and we were facing the former Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact. We have very close relationships withour western european allies and I think that continues with Angela Merkel or president Sarkozy or with the Brits. I think very close relationships.
In an ensuing exchange, Wilson talked Wexler down over Iraq and Afghanistan, the first time I've ever seen the aggressive Floridian so silenced. And then . . .
ROBERT WEXLER: The allegation that Senator Obama has not been effective, yet it is his view in Iraq that is now the prevailing view that the Prime Minister of Iraq has endorsed. It is Senator Obama's view that has been endorsed by the Bush administration in concept in Iran by engaging in diplomacy. It is his view in terms of adding troops in Afghanistan that's winning the day. So it's Senator Obama, before he's even president, that's affecting policy in such a great way.WILSON: It's amazing that you can skew things that far. Senator Obama has been dead wrong when it comes to the policy in Iraq. He opposed the surge and he is now in a situation where he's trying to deny that the surge was successful. I don't think that's particularly presidential.
And finally . . .
WILSON: To say that somehow there is a wall in NATO that's running somewhere down the Atlantic shows Senator Obama's inexperience when it comes to understanding where we are. You see that on a number of other things. I mean, look at his platform. He has these kind of message-tested, poll-tested things like, we should, Barack Obama will make sure we take -- he'll negotiate with the Russians to take our ICBMs off hair-trigger alert. It's a great idea: it was done 20 years ago. He seems to be unaware of American history. And that's inexperience which causes people some real concern about whether he's ready for the Oval Office.
Ouch. If I were going into a fight, I'd like Heather Wilson on my side. In the rugged rep from the land of enchantment, McCain has one smashing surrogate.
—Mark Finkelstein is a NewsBusters contributing editor and host of Right Angle. Contact him at mark@gunhill.net.
Comments Policy
Oh, you mean Congressman Wexler from...
July 24, 2008 - 19:08 ET by BEGRUNTMaryland?.....Oops, I forgot, he's from Florida. His residence is a couch at his in-laws. This clown has ZERO credibility, what a joke Chrissy put him on to begin with.
"If a man does his best, what else is there"?
General George S. Patton Jr.
Wexler owes about $140,000
July 24, 2008 - 19:14 ET by mitchfloridaWexler owes about $140,000 in State Income taxes to Maryland.
He is also going to be removed from the ballot in November unless he gets a residence in Florida pronto.
Wexler is a real tool.
Now that would..
July 24, 2008 - 19:19 ET by BEGRUNTbe justice!! His own incompitence will get him removed from the ballot......LMAO!!
"If a man does his best, what else is there"?
General George S. Patton Jr.
Unfortunately she went for
July 24, 2008 - 19:09 ET by BuffNBoneUnfortunately she went for the Senate seat being vacated and lost in the primary. She is, however, a very capable and classy person. We need more like her.
"Fighters are fun but bombers make policy"
Is she on the short list?
July 24, 2008 - 19:15 ET by Gary HallIs she on the short list? (;~> gh
Gary,
July 24, 2008 - 19:42 ET by RESTLESS 1Geez, I hope so. It would be nice to get her out there for a run in 4 years, maybe eight. :)
I'm not sure what her name recognization is out amongst the electorate, but a few VP debates would make her a household name in no time.
"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
Short list?
July 24, 2008 - 20:12 ET by ReaverForget the short list. Heather Wilson for President.
Europe is not one homogenous unit
July 24, 2008 - 19:16 ET by nkviking75Obama was talking about Europe as though it's one homogenous entity. The EU is trying to force that to happen, but Europe has a diverse group of countries often pulling in different directions. Some Europeans stood with us. Some undermined us. Spain was a close ally until terrorists blew up a train just before an election, and the new regime pulled out of Iraq. Wilson had it right.
When you put the clowns in charge, don't be surprised when a circus breaks out.
LACK OF SUBSTANCE; repeat LACK OF …
July 24, 2008 - 19:16 ET by needle“Barack Obama has always had a great charismatic style, but the substance has never been there”
This is the key to exposing Barack Hussein Obama for the completely empty suit that he is.
A huge collage of carefully crafted – by his handlers – platitudes, which when you push on them collapse.
Great job Heather Wilson!
Impunitas semper ad deteriora invitat.
BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVO!
July 24, 2008 - 19:29 ET by CrashBRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVO! Well done indeed.
Robert Wexler is a
July 24, 2008 - 19:42 ET by motherbeltRobert Wexler is a Democratic Goon who will stoop at nothing to defend another Democrat. In the 90's he exclaimed about Clinton, without an ounce of shame or saracasm (paraphrasing): Role model???? The President is not supposed to be a role model for anyone!! (As if that were an outrageous idea!)
And now he acts like President Bush has been stealing ideas from Obama. And didn't President Maliki say he was misunderstood when they claimed that he endorsed Obama's 16-month plan? Wexler acts like Obama engineered both a victory and an orderly withdrawal. Just shameless!
I loved Ms. Wilson's pointing out that Obama's idea of taking missiles off hair-trigger alert is late by 20 years! Does he have no researchers on his team? Or even anyone old enough to remember that?
Wilson is right: Obama gives beautiful speeches, but is pretty much devoid of substance.
One of the contributing bloggers here said the other day that Obama "gives good teleprompter."
Now that's eloquent ! ;-)
I didn't think it was physically possible, but this both sucks and blows. -Bart Simpson
Wexler
July 24, 2008 - 19:45 ET by allanfDo you think Wexler is setting himself up to run against Bob Martinez for Senate?
Don't know; I no longer
July 24, 2008 - 19:50 ET by motherbeltDon't know; I no longer live in Florida, but I wouldn't be surprised.
I didn't think it was physically possible, but this both sucks and blows. -Bart Simpson
O'Reilly
July 24, 2008 - 20:46 ET by allanfDid anyone catch O'Reilly and Griff Jenkins piece on Wexler. It turns out his Florida address is his in-laws condo in a senior community in Delray Beach.
RIP Van Winkle
July 24, 2008 - 21:05 ET by River CityAllan:
That was yesterday's discussion.
"Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality--the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind." Ayn Rand
HAHAHAHA
July 24, 2008 - 23:22 ET by pbthinkerThere is no way Wexler could win a statewide election. He'll probably get away with his Maryland residence since 50% of his district is Democrats, but statewide, there are Democrats that can't stand this pompous ass.
Maybe this is Matthews way of giving Wexler some face time where he's not explaining about sleeping on the couch or how his children are in a gated 55 or older community. I still want to see how he explains not paying Maryland income tax when he doesn't have a "primary" residence in Florida.
Democrats: Stuck on Stupid since 2000.
Wexler
July 24, 2008 - 20:48 ET by KC MulvilleIt's starting to come apart when you send Wexler as your spokesman. He's a cartoon character. I'm still waiting for him to pull off his 3-D human suit and start hopping around, like the Judge from "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"
And where have they been hiding this Wilson woman? She's fabulous.
Poor puerile Chris
July 24, 2008 - 19:35 ET by needleCHRIS MATTHEWS: He's talking about the fact that Europeans, Europeans hate George Bush. … Are you say the United States has had a good relationship with Europe in the last seven years?
It is true that practically all of the media in Europe hate Bush, and so do many of the media pawn children; but as far as the important leaders and politicians are concerned that is a very different matter. Heather Wilson refers to the people that count. Guess what Chris Matthews’s source of information is.
Impunitas semper ad deteriora invitat.
Matthews is right you know.
July 25, 2008 - 09:18 ET by pbanks7Matthews is right you know. That's why Germany and France elected those two liberals - Merkel and Sarkozy. Oh wait! <sarc>
MSM - shaping all the perceptions you need to believe, then confirming it with a poll.
She beat both of them with
July 24, 2008 - 19:41 ET by Biff McCainShe beat both of them with angry Hannity jingo.
I'm sure mainstream American (MSA is the opposite of you guys) gave Wexler a KO. Obama was apologizing,
in the nicest way, for the criminal actions of our most unpopular president.
I know how to win wars!
Really biff? I thought he
July 24, 2008 - 19:51 ET by RESTLESS 1Really biff? I thought he was apologizing for his gross stupidity and contant lies.
And wexler and mattews were made to look like the America hating fools they are. It's all on video.
"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
No more wars.
July 24, 2008 - 20:07 ET by Biff McCain"..wexler and mattews were made to look like the America hating fools"
Not by MainStream America (MSA,) you angry Repubs better get used to it.
You'll have eight years of Obama.
I know how to win wars!
You'll have eight years of Obama.
July 24, 2008 - 20:12 ET by Free StinkerYou'll have eight years of Obama.
I thought we were going to have 10 years of Obama?
"They're both doofuses!" --Mark Levin (speaking of Obama and McCain)
In your dreams biff......finish your..
July 24, 2008 - 20:15 ET by BEGRUNTdump, wipe and leave please. Oh, light a match on your way out....
"If a man does his best, what else is there"?
General George S. Patton Jr.
"Not by MainStream America
July 24, 2008 - 20:38 ET by ckc1227"Not by MainStream America (MSA,) you angry Repubs better get used to it. You'll have eight years of Obama."
I thought it was 8-10 years.
Bush isn't dumb.
July 24, 2008 - 20:59 ET by Biff McCain"I thought he was apologizing for his gross stupidity and contant lies."
I know he lied to America for almost eight years now, but how dumb
could Bush be? Maybe not the sharpest tool in the shed, l I'll go along
with that.
I know how to win wars!
No, but Obama is
July 24, 2008 - 22:00 ET by RESTLESS 1See for yourself. It's a pretty long list.
"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
Go to Anger Management Class
July 24, 2008 - 22:08 ET by Biff McCainI'm sure your Hannity list is right.
How will you deal with your anger for the next eight years?
I know how to win wars!
I'm sure he'll do a better
July 24, 2008 - 22:36 ET by Free StinkerI'm sure he'll do a better job than you Libs have been doing for the last eight years with your BDS.
"They're both doofuses!" --Mark Levin (speaking of Obama and McCain)
I'm sure I'll handle it
July 24, 2008 - 23:26 ET by RESTLESS 1I'm sure I'll handle it much better than you liberals have the past seven. You see, I'm not so weak of mind to let a Presidential election drive me to insanity. Oh, look at the clock, times up.
"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
Biffy...
July 24, 2008 - 22:33 ET by Clear thinker"I know he lied to America for almost eight years now, but how dumb
could Bush be?"
He's never lied to me!
45 Communist Goals for America http://www.nationmakers.com/com_goals.htm
yeah Biff
July 24, 2008 - 23:47 ET by candanceObama was apologizing, in the nicest way, for the criminal actions of our most unpopular president.
Yeah, those east Germans did get pretty disappointed when the USSR built a wall illegally in 1961 and JFK was too afraid to enforce the terms of the treaty.
And they also got pretty upset when Bill Clinton lied about Milosevic to invade Bosnia without a UN resolution.
We really shouldn't tolerate such illegal behavior from our presidents.
PS Until Wexler resigns from his seat and pays Maryland back all the money he kept, he isn't in a position to lecture anyone else about lying to the people.
And what's all this about angry Hannity lingo? She told a straight out fact - Obama is promising to do something the American government did 20 years ago. That's a hard fact. No lingo to it.
Please Biff, by all means, enlighten us more with your profound knowledge of history. Have you found out who really captured Hitler's body yet?
Biff is angry now. If you
July 25, 2008 - 09:39 ET by pbanks7Biff is angry now. If you disagree with him, then you must be angry too. That 500 tons of uranium from Iraq doesn't exist because Biff didn't see it reported on SeeBS news, therefore Bush lied. Mainstream Americans all agree with Media Matters. Conservative precepts are "jingo."
The word "jingo" usually lets the cat out of the bag. Biff is a marxist. He can't stare truth in the face. He still thinks "swiftboating" means "lying," even after nearly 5 years of Kerry refusing to release his official records.
Hey Biff, do some research. I even left a link for you above, to make it easy. ;-)
IGNORANCE IS BLISS - It's easier to repeat a mindless slogan than to do some actual research.
The Great Wexler
July 24, 2008 - 19:46 ET by Delsafrom the hanging chad county of Palm Beach.
I love Heather Wilson. Always have.
She knows a PHONY when she sees one and she knows BS when she hears it.
She has SOBama's number and let Wexler and Matthews know it!
We need he on television every night.
"I love Heather Wilson.
July 24, 2008 - 22:51 ET by Biff McCain"I love Heather Wilson. Always have. "
I know what you mean, she has the wholesome Mary Cheney like complexion.
I just can't believe the anger that spews out of her mouth.
I know how to win wars!
Biff, you're a typical
July 24, 2008 - 23:10 ET by motherbeltBiff, you're a typical hateful liberal. You simply cannot criticize the woman without making fun of her appearance.
Did that make your "argument" (was there an argument in there somewhere?) more believeable?
Exactly what did she say that wasn't true?
I didn't think it was physically possible, but this both sucks and blows. -Bart Simpson
Did the surge in Poland work?
July 24, 2008 - 23:32 ET by Biff McCainObama won't admit the "surge" worked, it didn't.
Bush bankrupted our country with his stupid war, exactly what the terrorists wanted him to do.
http://www.gocomics....
No, Biff
July 24, 2008 - 23:38 ET by Cool ArrowAnd most of the Jews who fought against the Nazis in the Warsaw uprising died.
But your joke is really funny. Can't stop laughing.
Ha Ha, Klaus, good one.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
"Bush bankrupted our country
July 25, 2008 - 00:00 ET by MrShy"Bush bankrupted our country with his stupid war, exactly what the terrorists wanted him to do."
Wrong.
He did precisely what the terrorists DIDN'T want him to do. He dismantled a dangerous, unstable dictatorship in the heart of the Middle East, propping up the one thing they can't stand -- a democracy. And in the process, sucked in terrorists by the monthly truckloads -- the many terrorists from outside Iraq who flooded in to flame the fires with suicide truck bomb after suicide truck bomb, between 2004 and 2006. Ultimately, they all died, and we targeted and killed a whole lot more.
We've also killed scores of bad guys in Afghanastan and other safe haven regions like northern Africa.
Biff, how many major, Al Quada-funded/connected terrorist acts have been committed around the world since the Madrid bombings 4 1/2 years ago (just a little after the Iraq war began.) I'll jump ahead and give you the answer:
None.
I know it makes you burn inside, but the world is way safer now than it was.
Try hard to put a lid on your seething, baseless hatred of Bush for a moment and maybe thank him for truly leading the way in fighting this horrible scourge and promoting more freedom and democracy around the world.
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
you don't understand Shy
July 25, 2008 - 00:12 ET by candanceBiff longs for the peaceful, easy days of the 90s under Clinton - you know, when 4,000 soldiers died, a battleship was attacked, two major buildings were bombed on American soil, and our president made up intelligence to invade the Balkans illegally.
Boy we were winning the war on terror back then.
hey candance
July 25, 2008 - 00:27 ET by MrShyFirst off, what two major buildings on U.S. soil? and 4,000 soldiers, really?
No, I'm not a troll who broke into Mr. Shy's account :p I didn't know this stuff. I know of course the 1993 WTC bombing... are you including the Oklahoma bombing in '95? And did we lose that many soldiers in the Balkans?
Btw, I can help you and give Bifftard the full list of Clinton/peace-and-love-and-roses -era terrorist attacks on the U.S. and U.S. interests:
February 1993 - A bomb in a van explodes in the underground parking garage in New York's World Trade Center, killing six people and wounding 1,042.
April 19, 1995 - A car bomb destroys the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people and wounding over 600.
Nov. 13, 1995 - A car-bomb in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills seven people, five of them American military and civilian advisers for National Guard training. The "Tigers of the Gulf," "Islamist Movement for Change," and "Fighting Advocates of God" claim responsibility.
June 25, 1996 - A bomb aboard a fuel truck explodes outside a U.S. air force installation in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. 19 U.S. military personnel are killed in the Khubar Towers housing facility, and 515 are wounded, including 240 Americans.
July 27, 1996 - A pipe bomb explodes during the Olympic games in Atlanta, killing one person and wounding 111.
June 21, 1998 - Rocket-propelled grenades explode near the U.S. embassy in Beirut.
Aug. 7, 1998 - Terrorist bombs destroy the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In Nairobi, 12 Americans are among the 291 killed, and over 5,000 are wounded, including 6 Americans. In Dar es Salaam, one U.S. citizen is wounded among the 10 killed and 77 injured.
Oct. 12, 2000 - A terrorist bomb damages the destroyer USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39.
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
Shy...If you're going to
July 25, 2008 - 00:40 ET by JerShy...If you're going to include Rudolf's pipe bombing the Olympics, you may as well mention the abortion clinic bombings by him and others.
And there was the CIA shootings by a Pakistani terrorist 4 days after Clinton took office which killed 3 people.
I'm sure there were other incidents and fatalities, but you might not want to get into a comparison of losses during different administrations.
Jer
Jer
July 25, 2008 - 00:47 ET by MrShyYeah, maybe that one should be taken of the list, I grant you that.
But then, let's add the CIA one, which I was unaware of. Also, I'll be glad to list a lot more through the 80's under Bush #1 and Reagan, starting with that awful attack in 1982 on our soldiers in Lebanon. Reagan basically high-tailed it out of there, for who knows why. Imagine if that happened under our current Pres's watch?
All of them allowed Muslim extremism to flourish and radical groups to develop and grow. It's very unfortunate that 9/11 sort of had to happen to wake people up.
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
→ I misse it Jer
July 25, 2008 - 00:47 ET by Cool ArrowHow many Abortion Clinic bombings have occurred under Bush's watch.
I must admit I haven't been keeping up.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Cool...I don't think any.
July 25, 2008 - 00:52 ET by JerCool...I don't think any. I know there hasn't been one in quite a while.
Jer
CA
July 25, 2008 - 01:01 ET by MrShyHaha :) But this really has me thinking....
Bush came in inheriting a TRUE MESS:
- An out-of-control Al Queda just humiliated us with the USS Cole bombing in 2000, and they were already deep into their 9/11 plans.
- The horrible dot-com crash of 2000
- The Balkans were a mess and weren't the Chechnians (sp?) in Russia running around terrorizing small towns with heinous suicide bombings?
- Isreali-Palistinian discord reached it's peak at the turn of the century/decade, with almost daily bombings by Hamas.
On and on... the world was truly a powder-keg.
Bush enters in 2001 and we're dealt one last, horrific blow, on our soil, and then we finally started acting like the great nation we are, IMO. Of course, because Bush was so bold (not in my eyes, as he just finally did the right thing) the scar of terrorism opened up some more and naturally things had to get a bit worse before things began to pay off, with the Bali and Madrid bombings, among others.
But for most of his second term, how dangerous and scary is the world? Not much AT ALL. Bombs are not going off in cafe's lately, we're NOT and never WERE in a recession, and the world's temperatures seem just fine.
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
Right Shy
July 25, 2008 - 01:12 ET by Cool ArrowThrow in the incessant Dem whining about the 2000 election up until 9-11.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Shy...It never ceases to
July 25, 2008 - 01:19 ET by JerShy...It never ceases to amuse me how you guys attribute everything "good" about the 90's to the Republican congress, while everything "bad" was Clinton's fault.
The truth is...we were indeed sitting on a terrorist "powder keg". The problem is that the Bush people were told about it and warned the fuse was lit, but all they wanted to talk about was "star wars".
Jer
→ Maybe
July 25, 2008 - 01:24 ET by Cool ArrowBut Mr. Urgency (BJ Clinton) could have uttered 3 little words. "Take the shot"
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Cool,
July 25, 2008 - 01:40 ET by RESTLESS 1He said the words, but only Monica was around to hear them.
"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
Other famous Clinton words
July 25, 2008 - 01:46 ET by Cool ArrowBetter put some ice on that.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Cool, did you not read my
July 25, 2008 - 01:48 ET by JerCool, did you not read my response to you the other night when you posted the very same words to me on another thread.
Why don't you go read it if you haven't. It would be a good time, because I may have to say something about Waco, and I don't won't to get you mad at me again. I know your feelings are pretty intense about it, and I like you too much for you to be upset with me.
Jer
→ Jer
July 25, 2008 - 02:00 ET by Cool ArrowI'm not detecting any personal animosity from you, and I hope you don't from me.
But neither Arthur C., nor Dwight, nor Weaseley, or Richard, nor any other Clark(e)s you might mention carries much weight on the Osama bin Ladin issue.
At least one of them needs very badly to look good for history.
I'm OK with a short Waco derail if you think it will prove your point. But you can't convince me Janet Reno and Bill Clinton did the right thing at Waco either.
Besides, I was at work, and couldn't get back to your followup the other night.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Osama bin Ladin
July 25, 2008 - 02:16 ET by MrShySpeaking of that pathetic, bearded, silver-spooned priviledged rich kid -turned- thug/killer.
When was the last time we had a substantiated video from him, with his Jihad-calling of the month? Or even his sidekicksh*t, the one with glasses? Pictures, even, or sightings? I'll answer that for you all:
A veeerrrrrrrrryyyy loooooong time.
Just makes you wonder.
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
OBL Sidekick
July 25, 2008 - 02:20 ET by Cool ArrowI think the guy with glasses played Ernie on "My Three Sons". Or was that "My Three Suicide Vest Propulsion Systems"?
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
I don't detect any
July 25, 2008 - 02:45 ET by JerI don't detect any animosity either, Cool, and I like it that way.
I'll mostly punt on Waco, except to say this. It was an horrific tragedy. But, for goodness sakes, Koresh was a religious madman who masqueraded as Jesus Christ, "married" and had sexual relations with a number of 13 and 14 year old girls, stockpiled an arsenal of illegal weaponry, murdered federal law enforcement officers, orchestrated the Armagedan he had promised would come, was begged for weeks to surrender, and then when the government moved in after all his broken promises to do so, ordered [that is, Koresh ordered] that fires be set to burn down the compound.
And yet, despite this, many believe that, in the words of Rush Limbaugh--which I personally heard him say--"Bill Clinton and Janet Reno deliberately incinerated innocent women and children at Waco. And liberals don't care about it because they don't like religious people."
Jer
→ And ll just say this
July 25, 2008 - 03:05 ET by Cool ArrowThe chilren who could have substantiated Reno's allegations of pedophilia conveniently died in a fire.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Also, all four dead
July 25, 2008 - 10:31 ET by pbanks7Also, all four dead troopers made it to the Clinton Deathwatch.
I read the book by one of the survivors, A Place Called Waco: A Survivor's Story by David Thibodeau and Leon Whiteson. According to him:
ATF could have taken Koresh without a shot because he went to town regularly. They entered with an illegal (because it was based on info more than a year old) warrant. Koresh was willing to leave peaceably, after writing his manifesto, which was nearly complete when ATF started their final assault. ATF used CS gas, which is illegal under the Geneva Convention, but apparently OK if you use it against your own citizens. CS gas is flammable in high concentrations, and since the power was cut off, they were using kerosene lanterns. ATF was shooting escapees on sight. Thibodeau's jury recommened the minimum sentence, but the judge slapped him with more than the maximum.
Most of what he said is easily corroborated. Also, given the choice, would you rather burn to death, or take a bullet to the head?
MSM - shaping all the perceptions you need to believe, then confirming it with a poll.
"The truth is...we were
July 25, 2008 - 01:43 ET by MrShy"The truth is...we were indeed sitting on a terrorist "powder keg"."
Well, I'm glad you admit that much.
"The problem is that the Bush people were told about it and warned the fuse was lit, but all they wanted to talk about was "star wars"."
But now I'm sad again :p With all due respect, and you are due it, you're downing too much of the anti-Bush kool-aid again with this one.
Again, I/we are bringing up all the stuff that came up in the 90's to refute those who tell us LIES: that the world is more dangerous and we are worse off now than before Bush.
It's absolutely FALSE.
The powder keg was building for years leading up to the new millenium, and Clinton -- nor the guys before him, Republicans! -- had their share of warnings, that the fuse was moving closer and closer to something major -- and they all did nothing, Jer. Nothing. Bush, too, did nothing, and I don't argue this.
But that was just eight months of nothing, not 2-3 decades of nothing. 9/11 happened, and it upsets me, but it's so pointless to lay blame on one president. What is pointful (my new word :)) is that we've been doing the right thing since that day, hence, a much safer and much less violent world. Look around, read newspapers. It's why the MSM now has to fabricate new things to run around like chickens with their heads cut off, because much less blood is being shed these days everywhere. There are two democracies in the Middle East, democracy and capitalism has flourished in Eastern Europe and the Balkans, Hamas has really cooled it's terrorist jets the past few years in that region. After Bush let Isreal rightfully defend itself and really take it to Hezballah, somehow they've been pretty quiet since 2006. Iran and Syria are now pretty isolated with Iraq being a success.... How much more do you want?
All of it points directly to Bush? No, and who knows how much credit he should take. But it's a fact. At least right now, things are calm (knock on wood...) and that makes me happy.
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
Shy...I don't drink
July 25, 2008 - 02:22 ET by JerShy...I don't drink anyone's Kool-Aid. I read. I learn facts. I search out differing points of views. And I arrive at my own conclusion. If it's pro-Reagan, so be it. If it's pro-Clinton, so be it. If it's pro-Bush, so be it. There are issues where I tend to agree more with conservatives, others with liberals, still other with libertarians.
I don't suffer from BDS, but I concede many Dems and liberals do. That said, the level of BDS has never even remotely approached that of CDS in the 90's, which still persists to some degree.
As I stated the other night, while I and other Democrats--including the Clintons--were rallying behind Bush on and after 9/11, right-wing talk radio was screaming that Clinton had blood on his hands. O'Reilly and Hannity-- whom I watched every single night--had over 40 segments devoted in whole or in part to the propostion that Clinton was solely responsible for 9/11. [I stopped counting after that]. I like Chris Wallace, but, years later, when the first question [after the pleasantries] he asked Clinton was "our viewers want to know why you didn't do more to get Bin Laden" I think if I had been Clinton I would have cold-cocked him--and I'm a pretty laid back guy.
Jer
Okay, okay Jer. You're a
July 25, 2008 - 02:41 ET by MrShyOkay, okay Jer. You're a pure centrist. I believe you. (I do :)) Buuuuuut.....
"I like Chris Wallace, but, years later, when the first question [after the pleasantries] he asked Clinton was "our viewers want to know why you didn't do more to get Bin Laden" "
Well, then maybe you have the same anger-management issues Clinton has. How is that not a good question? It's one I'd sure like a satisfying answer to. Now, if you want to debate whether he probably should have gone at Clinton in less of a box-him-in-a-corner fashion, with a differently worded question, fine.
You know, leftist journalists throw awful, insinuating and often pure-hypothetical style questions at Bush all the time, and he's cool as a cucumber. Sometimes I wish he'd cold-cock some of them. Relative to some of those -- like about Iraq, where they frame the question in such away that implicates Bush negatively -- they're much more off-base than this one from Wallace. But fine, Clinton bullied him into not asking another tough question for the rest of the interview. Difference is, Bush takes tough questions, and respectfully puts them in their place (usually, but not always...)
But Jer, he did very little, and it's a fact. Under his watch, there were four major -- that's MAJOR -- attacks on our soil and our interests abroad. WTC '93, two embassy bombings in Africa killing hundreds, and the USS Cole, and all were confirmed to be OBL's group. You go after someone like that with a vengence, and try your darndest to capture or kill him. Period. You can make the argument that Bush has done neither, but he DID do his darndest. And, like I mentioned in another post, he's rendered him and his gang virtually irrelevant now. He might very well be dead anyway, if you ask me.
But, I will defend Clinton in this regard: it would have been completely politcally incorrect at that time to wage a war with Afghanastan or any nation. Only a major attack like 9/11, that is essentially a firm declaration of war, allowed Bush to do this.
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
Jer is a good guy. He isn't
July 25, 2008 - 02:45 ET by Carl KolchakJer is a good guy. He isn't disrespectul and he knows a lot about history. He's from Tennessee, so you know he's an ok person, even if he likes Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt should be moved to a stuck up city, since I think Nashville is a great city, but other than that Jer is a good poster.
"Somebody told me when I first got to Nashville, son you finally got it made, Ol Hank made it here, and we're all sure that you will, but I don't think Hank done it this way" 'Are You Sure Hank Done It This Way'
Thanks Carl...I've been in
July 25, 2008 - 03:19 ET by JerThanks Carl...I've been in Atlanta for the past 35 years, but I still consider Tennessee home. I graduated from Vanderbilt in 1969, but rooting for their sports teams over the years has taught me a lot about humility. [They've had a few moments of glory in recent years though].
Jer
→ But Shy
July 25, 2008 - 02:52 ET by Cool Arrow12/16/98 Bill Clinton did send Cruise Missiles into Iraq (wait a minute, that war was over wasn't it?).
And though the Republicans recognized it as the diversion from Lewinski it was, none of them questioned his right to use force.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Shy...What if a couple of
July 25, 2008 - 03:10 ET by JerShy...What if a couple of years from now, Bush were interviewed by Wolf Blitzer of CNN and the first question to him was...
Mr. President, our viewers were asked to email suggested questions and what they want to know is "Why--during the summer of 2001, when the lights were blinking red, and the intelligence chatter was unprecedented that a huge terrorist attack was on the horizon--did you choose to take a month-long vacation throwing barbeques at your ranch, instead of staying in Washington, ordering heightened security measures, and trying to connect the dots?"
Maybe Bush would have kept his cool. I think I would have put Wolf in a headlock and plucked every hair of that silly beard from his face.
Saying that Clinton did nothing is just absurd. It would take two or three pages of the thread to list it. He tried to do more and the Republican congress blocked him.
Jer
"Saying that Clinton did
July 25, 2008 - 03:20 ET by MrShy"Saying that Clinton did nothing is just absurd. It would take two or three pages of the thread to list it. He tried to do more and the Republican congress blocked him."
Did it? Was it the Republican congress that made him stop short of pulling the trigger? Heck, I don't know, as I was not very plugged into stuff in the 90's. Well, like I also stated, the climate was a whole lot different, and terrorism was not a top priority then.
As for CNN Puppet Beard Man (gosh, I can't stand him... I thought Aaron Brown - his name? - was insufferable enough in the ole' CNN days, but I'd do anything to have him back now :p) well this...
"Why--during the summer of 2001, when the lights were blinking red, and the intelligence chatter was unprecedented that a huge terrorist attack was on the horizon--did you choose to take a month-long vacation throwing barbeques at your ranch, instead of staying in Washington, ordering heightened security measures, and trying to connect the dots?"
Chris Wallace did not spike his question with stuff like "instead of getting your cigar smoked" or whatever he was doing at the time, he asked him a direct, to the point question, and what he got in return was an ex President lunging at him and almost physically intimidating him. If you ask me, it was sort of sad on Clinton's part. If it was Wallace's fourth or fifth dig/question of the same issue, I can understand, but come on.
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
Shy...Here is an honest,
July 25, 2008 - 03:49 ET by JerShy...Here is an honest, respectful suggestion: Why don't you plug yourself into the events of the 90's, and approach the examination with a completely open and objective mind--without the ideological baggage which has been packed by the Rush Limbaughs of the world.
I had to reassess many of my contemporaneous reflexive disagreements with Reagan's policies after taking another look at issues and events of the 80's through a clear lens rather than political prisms.
Jer
By the way, I realize I
July 25, 2008 - 03:57 ET by JerBy the way, I realize I loaded up my hypothetical question from Blitzer to Bush--a little hyperbole to illustrate the point. I think either question, considering everything which adds to the context, was or would be inappropriate.
Jer
He was pretty busy having fun
July 25, 2008 - 10:53 ET by pbanks7He was pretty busy having fun while President. One day we was discussing national security matters while getting a BJ. Maybe he was a little distracted during that conversation.
One day he was too busy golfing to be interrupted by his National Security Advisor, so they had to scrap the mission to capture bin Laden. I forget in which book I read it. That was one of the scenes in The Road to 9/11 that had the libs howling. Good thing I taped it. It's still unavailable.
Bush was pretty busy all summer still filling vacant postitions, on which he got a late start because of Gore's refusal to accept defeat.
MSM - shaping all the perceptions you need to believe, then confirming it with a poll.
Here's a temperature for you.
July 25, 2008 - 09:54 ET by pbanks7I haven't heard anything about Palestinian suicide bombers since Sodom Insane is no longer at 98.6 to give them $25,000 a "pop." Did they all go to Iraq?
MSM - shaping all the perceptions you need to believe, then confirming it with a poll.
Here Shy
July 25, 2008 - 01:07 ET by candanceYou can read more about the casualties here:
http://www.nysun.com/new-york/heroes-and-cowards/48926/
And yes, I was counting Oklahoma City and the Trade Center in 93. Don't even get me started on Waco or Ruby Ridge.
As an aside to Jer, this isn't about a statistic competition or a body count. I just get so tired of people saying how "useless" the WOT is when it has clearly caused a drop in global violence.
I'll check that link out,
July 25, 2008 - 01:16 ET by MrShyI'll check that link out, THANKS!
I totally forgot about the complete debacle that was Waco (and Ruby Ridge, I'm quasi-forgetting, but I'll google it) and here we have libs blaming Bush for things like Katrina.... a natural disaster. Mother nature has been doing her thing on this planet every decade since earth began it's orbit. Waco was a complete government blunder, and just imagine i