I have my issues with Pat Buchanan. Anyone who writes a book arguing we should have found a modus vivendi with Hitler isn't necessarily high on my list. Still, when it comes to spot-on analysis of the political scene, Pat is without peer. But when Buchanan—his own opposition to the Iraq war notwithstanding—argued on this evening's Hardball that McCain's support for the surge is a winning issue for him, it drove Chris Matthews into such a frenzy he was reduced to a reality-defying scream that the surge isn't working.
Air America's Mark Green was along for the bumpy ride. An extended clip was rolled of McCain at a town hall in New Mexico saying that he knows how to win wars, that Obama was wrong to oppose the surge, and that he McCain will build on the Iraq experience to lead us to success in Afghanistan.
Then all hell broke loose.
View video here.
CHRIS MATTHEWS: Pat, are you saying we've won the war in Iraq? What do you mean by winning wars? What wars has John McCain won? Seriously. Name the wars, list them, that we have won under his leadership, or in his view.
PAT BUCHANAN [in a classic bit of realpolitik]: Do you want to get into the substance, or the politics? [Green can be heard laughing in the background.] Look, the American people believe we made a mistake going into Iraq. Barack wins that. The American people believe the surge has worked, it is working.
MATTHEWS [shouting]: No it hasn't! The American people haven't been asked the right question. Pat, you know you're wrong on this. Pat, you're disagreeing with yourself on this, Pat. You have said in the past the reason to stick the army in there with greater strength a year or two ago was to get the Iraqis to solve their own fish. To put it together themselves politically so that we could come home. By that definition, have we won?
BUCHANAN: By the loudness of your argument and your intensity, you are suggesting McCain indeed has a powerful point.
The argument raged on for several minutes more. In closing, Pat returned to the theme that Mike Huckabee often invoked during the primaries: if you're catching flak, you must be over the target.
BUCHANAN: Well listen, the very intensity of your argument, gentlemen, tells me that Barack Obama's got a problem on this issue.
MATTHEWS: OK, if that's your measure of --
BUCHANAN: That's my observation.
MATTHEWS: -- intellectual confidence, then Pat, you lost a long time ago. Pat Buchanan, it's always an honor to watch you switch sides between your ideals, your ideology, and your partisan responsibilities.
Buchanan compromised his ideals in no way. He made clear that he believes the war was a mistake, and that Ike was a great conservative for keeping us out of foreign entanglements. But as a matter of pure political analysis, he rightfully observed that McCain has the whip hand on the surge. As for "partisan responsibilities," when's the last time you recall Chris accusing a Dem of sacrificing his integrity to toe the party line?
—Mark Finkelstein is a NewsBusters contributing editor and host of Right Angle. Contact him at mark@gunhill.net.
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When Chrissy loses it........
July 15, 2008 - 19:38 ET by BEGRUNTyou know your hiting all the right buttons.
"If a man does his best, what else is there"?
General George S. Patton Jr.
All-Star Political Panel
July 15, 2008 - 19:39 ET by TexndocBrit Hume, Charles K, and Mort also discussed the surge, polls, and problems for a particular candidate. I enjoyed their conversation more than this one. And, you could listen to it and not get wet.
Yep,
July 15, 2008 - 20:11 ET by DEVILDOCMOMtho' I did not see chrissie, but I did watch Brit and Charles; the discussion was just great-as usual.
If Buchanan doesn't demand Matthews' full apology...
July 15, 2008 - 19:48 ET by Gary HallFirst of all, how can Pat Buchanan be laughing at the end of that charade? Chris Matthews was beyond his usual rude self; the interrupting, the talking over his guests and his usual lack of interest in an intellectual discussion. Indeed he was just plain out insulting to the process. OK so it was sensational spin - that only ended in ending a conversation.
If Buchanan doesn't demand Matthews' full apology from Matthews' I'll be about done with his thoughts on much of anything. There is a point were someone has to stand up to Chris Matthews.
And, in retrospect, Mark - I pretty much agreed with your view of Buchanan - just have thought it sad that he allows so much spewing of spin to get past him. (;~gh
Gary, I thought the same
July 15, 2008 - 22:04 ET by motherbeltGary, I thought the same thing, just watching that one clip. I can't stand to watch Matthews any more. Pat Buchanan should have just said OK, Chris, you're asking AND answering the questions, so I'll just go on home!
Why anyone goes on his show is just beyond me!
Shoot 'em all; let God sort 'em out! - Marge Simpson
He should have channeled Zell Miller
July 16, 2008 - 12:02 ET by PurdueMattAre you going to shut up after you ask me? Are you going to give me a chance to answer?
I've seen the bloviating
July 16, 2008 - 12:10 ET by lotrI've seen the bloviating Matthews be quite rude with Pat Buchanan in the past, portraying him as some sort of right-wing anachronistic wacko. Unfortunately, Matthews, as host, has the advantage in terms of control on his own show and a guest usually has to submit to that. The same goes for O'Reilly for that matter. It's actually to Pat's credit that he does not let such exchanges ruffle him.
Now, considering Matthews' contention that the "surge" (I've never liked that moniker -- "revamp in Iraq strategy" is more accurate) -- "NO IT HASN'T (worked)!", I ask what planet is he from? Yes, Chris, the strategy change HASN'T! worked if by "worked" you mean that the U.S. has left the building (the only way to "victory" in the eyes of the Left), but some of us don't define "victory" as a retreat.
Obama's Left - A Trojan Horse Approaches
July 15, 2008 - 19:58 ET by ZachJonesIsHomeThe times are a changing. I hope that main stream Americans will start paying closer attention soon. Please consider: Obama’s Left - A Trojan Horse (Donkey) Approaches Found at: http://zachjonesisho...
zachjonesishome.wordpress.com
The First one now, will later be Last
July 15, 2008 - 20:14 ET by JayTeeThe Times they are a Changin.....
Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.
The Republican Revolution will not be Televised
If the surge worked why are we still there?
July 15, 2008 - 20:02 ET by Biff McCainIf the surge worked why are we still there?
We nailed Hitler in three years, the surge will be that old soon.
"Burn that mother down." -- Jimmy Ellis
Excuse me...
July 15, 2008 - 20:09 ET by Clear thinkerMy wifes kidney operation was a success but she still had to stay an extra 3 weeks in the hospital.
You may be the lamest debater we have had in quite some time.
45 Communist Goals for America http://www.nationmakers.com/com_goals.htm
Clear
July 15, 2008 - 20:13 ET by DEVILDOCMOM:).
Endless War!
July 15, 2008 - 20:42 ET by Biff McCainCT,
She came home, our soldiers are forced to stay because of the "stop loss" draft.
"Burn that mother down." -- Jimmy Ellis
mindless platitudes
July 15, 2008 - 20:48 ET byScooter Libby
Haliburton
Valerie Plame
Mission Accomplished
"Television is where you watch people in your living room that you would not want near your house." Groucho
----
July 15, 2008 - 21:39 ET by dahliatraversDrowning polar bears.
It appears to have escaped
July 15, 2008 - 21:06 ET by NL207It appears to have escaped your notice that we have a significant military Presence in Korea, despite the fact that war was "over" 55 years ago. Why is that? According to your theory of war that must be endless war and therefore unwinnable.
That about hits the nail on
July 16, 2008 - 14:07 ET by lotrThat about hits the nail on the head. Doesn't the U.S. have military presence in Europe as well, despite the fact that that war was over 63 years ago??
Stop loss has been used in
July 16, 2008 - 12:05 ET by bassndudeStop loss has been used in every war, except Vietnam. Stop loss is SOP during times of war, including the Civil War, WWl, WWll, and so on.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass - I was really upset when I first heard about Stop Loss
July 16, 2008 - 12:23 ET by Dee Bunkbut like everything else, the liberals distort it. I've learned to never trust anything a liberal says without verifying it. I remember reading that the average additional time is 6 months and it's most often used for higher ranking people.
The media and liberals like to give the false impression that it's used to make people serve indefinitely until the end of the war. I guess maybe they could if they wanted, but they don't, and everyone who signs up is fully aware of the policy.
There are a few unlucky people didn't plan on re-enlisting but who's time comes up just as their unit is getting called over. Once the tour is over, they are allowed to leave. They can't go replacing them with an untrained person. It's only logical.
I feel horrible that anyone who doesn't want to serve is forced to serve for any length of time, but they do agree to it when they sign up and it's a lot better than having a draft like the Dems want.
"Constantly attacking (peaceful) religions rather than politely sharing your own shows lack of faith " DB
Dee
July 16, 2008 - 12:27 ET by bassndude...it's used to make people serve indefinitely until the end of the war.
In WWll and WWl, that is exactly what they did. If you were drafted in either one of those wars, you were drafted for the duration of the war. A lot of draftees served untill 1946 or '47.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Good point Bass
July 16, 2008 - 12:56 ET by Dee Bunkand it wasn't just a small percentage of people either.
Like I said when I first heard about this from some ex- army reserves military friends who are extreme liberals, they left me with the impression that everyone serving had been forced to re-enlist. I was pretty upset at that notion.
Since then I've talked to many other people (because it concerned me) and when they talk about their son, boyfriend or who ever in Iraq, I always ask about the details. Not one that I've spoken to or whose family or friends I've spoken to has been forced to re-enlist or has been stop lossed. They all have voluntarily re-enlisted.
The media and liberals are scum as usual for leaving people with the impression that I had at first. They don't tell you that it's only about 1% of active duty military that are affected and that a large percentage of that 1% are higher ranking officers and that the average length they are involuntarily extended is 6 months.
I'm sure that if the military got to the point where they had to stop-loss a large percentage of troupes for years rather than months, then we would have a draft.
I've learned to not trust anything a liberal says. Most are just ignorant (uninformed) but there are many who are also purposefully deceitful.
It's like the story that came up the other day with Whoopi Goldberg about the voting rights for African Americans needing to be extended. Whoopi just heard that and didn't verify it and then says it on National television and then Elizabeth thinks she's a basically honest person so she believes it.
Always verify anything a liberal says. They usually have it wrong.
Stop loss draft? Explain to
July 16, 2008 - 18:14 ET by BDStop loss draft? Explain to tme how THAT worked?
I really wanna hear this one.
Biffy boy...
July 16, 2008 - 18:23 ET by Clear thinkerEndless War!
July 15, 2008 - 21:42 ET by Biff McCain
CT,
She came home, our soldiers are forced to stay because of the "stop loss" draft.
"Burn that mother down." -- Jimmy Ellis
Uh, maybe you don't understand how this works. My wife got to go home when she completed her mission. Same goes for soldiers. Plus, I don't know any soldier that is going to be forced to stay in Iraq any longer than necessary.
If you know something I don't, I would love to hear your brilliance.
45 Communist Goals for America http://www.nationmakers.com/com_goals.htm
Biff
July 15, 2008 - 20:16 ET byposter child for the thinking impaired:
why are we still in Germany?
why are the cops still patrolling our streets?
why do we continue to send out welfare checks?
if your lungs worked yesterday why breathe today?
if your brain works why do you ask stupid questions?
"Television is where you watch people in your living room that you would not want near your house." Groucho
And don't forget to boycott
July 15, 2008 - 21:02 ET by mulerider24And don't forget to boycott the hospital your wife stayed at because there are still sick people there. Is it still satire if this guy doesn't know he's being funny?
*sound of duct tape*
July 15, 2008 - 20:26 ET by candanceYou have to be kidding me. These are the best ambassadors the left can come up with?
We nailed Hitler in three years
This has to be the stupidest, laziest, most shockingly ignorant comment ever made in comparison to the war in Iraq. Please biff, for the love of all things holy, scoot on down to your local Barnes & Noble and learn a little something about history.
Dang!
July 15, 2008 - 20:41 ET by doug1950I was going to reply to Biff's post but you guys all beat me to the draw and used all my "stuff" while you were at it. It took me a few minutes to get up off the floor after I fell out of my chair when I read his comments. You all said exactly what I was going to say after I regained my composure.
doug
July 15, 2008 - 20:56 ET by candanceBiff is your typical drive by troll. Never commits to a single thread for more than two or three comments.
indeed, we have to keep
July 15, 2008 - 22:14 ET by TruthMongerindeed, we have to keep picking fights with each other out of sheer boredom:(
@Biff: That's the most
July 15, 2008 - 20:58 ET by RickTaLife@Biff: That's the most intellectually numb post I've seen all day, and I was browsing the Kos today. lol.
5 yr war...2 year surge
July 15, 2008 - 21:01 ET by PaarlThe Iraq war is NOT a deep total war...world wide like WWII..it is a long war...more like the cold war whose flare ups..Korea..Vietnam were episodic..I presume after the rout of Al queda in Iraq we will still have an issue for a long period in central asia.fighting the long war..intense at times ..relaxed at times but always with guard on!!
Paarl of Rhodesia
PS..the British war in the Malaysian Federation took 12 yrs to win..the results over decades were astounding
Hey, Biff........In case you didn't.....
July 15, 2008 - 22:48 ET by BEGRUNTknow....WERE STILL THERE!!!!!
"If a man does his best, what else is there"?
General George S. Patton Jr.
"hitler nailed it in three years"
July 16, 2008 - 11:55 ET by larry on LIin all due respect for 'all' of our efforts in wwII, we did have the overwhelming help of most of the free nations and some not so free.what will people like you say when the three remaining political conditions are met? i suspect dead silience from the left.
News flash Biff...The
July 16, 2008 - 12:00 ET by bassndudeNews flash Biff...The Soviets nailed Hitler's bunker, Hitler nailed himself...How do you get your head that far up there? Let alone bend over that far...
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
I love when Chris makes a
July 15, 2008 - 20:05 ET by Clear thinkerI love when Chris makes a complete ass of himself?
45 Communist Goals for America http://www.nationmakers.com/com_goals.htm
as opposed to ordinary days
July 16, 2008 - 14:55 ET by wizardjrWhen he's an incomplete ass.
I'm convinced that Pat
July 15, 2008 - 20:20 ET by Eileen RightI'm convinced that Pat Buchanan is MSNBC's prank monkey. They know he'll say anything to stir things up and keep himself "relevant". Aside from some goood soundbites, I still regard him as Perot II, the sequel.
ER... Perfect way to put
July 15, 2008 - 20:52 ET by bigtimerER...
Perfect way to put it...that is how I feel too.
Was fun watching Matthews having a semi-meltdown though for the little time it lasted...
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
Chris Matthews is just
July 15, 2008 - 20:55 ET by RickTaLifeChris Matthews is just pathetic, that's all there is to it.
To be honest though, for all practical purposes, I hold Buchanan in the same regard.
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July 15, 2008 - 21:45 ET by dahliatraversThe American people believe the surge has worked, it is working.
No it hasn't!
Holy mackeral. What is this, "The Fiction Hour", with your host Chris Matthews?
Hey, Chris!!
July 15, 2008 - 22:18 ET by motherbeltEven Barack Obama admits the surge worked and is working!
NY Daily News reports that he has scrubbed his website of the previous critique of the surge and replaced the negative comments:
The presumed Democratic nominee replaced his Iraq issue Web page, which had described the surge as a "problem" that had barely reduced violence.
"The surge is not working," Obama's old plan stated, citing a lack of Iraqi political cooperation but crediting Sunni sheiks - not U.S. military muscle - for quelling violence in Anbar Province.
[....]
Obama's campaign posted a new Iraq plan Sunday night, which cites an "improved security situation" paid for with the blood of U.S. troops since the surge began in February 2007.
It praises G.I.s' "hard work, improved counterinsurgency tactics and enormous sacrifice."
What say you, Mr. Matthews? Is the Obamessiah wrong too?
Shoot 'em all; let God sort 'em out! - Marge Simpson
Here's the real point...
July 15, 2008 - 21:55 ET by Tom1969caMeaning, "The only reason the polls show American's believe the surge is working is because the MSM hasn't figured out how to phrase the question so they give us the answer we want them to!"
~~~
I admire FDR for not insisting on getting the approval of France and Germany before going to war.
--Anne Coulter
Intuitive poll question
July 15, 2008 - 22:03 ET by Cool ArrowQuestion: Given the recent flooding in Iowa, do you consider the surge successful
Not very much
No, not very much
Yes, I like corn.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
:-D That's classic. It
July 15, 2008 - 22:54 ET by RickTaLife:-D
That's classic. It does sound exactly like a question they would ask though.
Still laughing. It doesn't
July 16, 2008 - 01:48 ET by maggieqpublicStill laughing. It doesn't get any better than that, C.A. (But now I've lost my train of thought for nagging on Matthews.)
----
July 16, 2008 - 05:01 ET by dahliatraversVery good, Cool Arrow.
OMG
July 16, 2008 - 07:37 ET by mytwocentsThat was truly funny CA! Coffee out the nose funny!
Chrssy's poll
July 16, 2008 - 09:02 ET by athoughtor2Chrssy's poll questions:
Is Barak a: the Messiah b: the black JFK?
When you hard Barak speak do you? a:get a thrill up your leg b: get a thrill down your leg c: have your heart go flutter flutter
not asked the right question, hmmmmmmmm i guess a straight forward non -leading question is not the way to do it. what an arse
Just took a second look at
July 16, 2008 - 10:49 ET by maggieqpublicJust took a second look at the video... anybody know when Buchanan's MSNBC contract expires? (He must be shoppng for a better job.) Buchanan is a collegial guy, but he couldn't be pleased with CM's parting shots.
The whole nice-guy host thing is gone from Hardball. It's a little embarrassing to see an adult revert to his inner 8-yr-old.
Please do not insult 8 year
July 16, 2008 - 11:24 ET by athoughtor2Please do not insult 8 year olds
point well-taken ato2!
July 16, 2008 - 11:34 ET by maggieqpublicpoint well-taken ato2!
"i took a second look"
July 16, 2008 - 12:07 ET by larry on LIafter viewing it, i was surprised to see that they edited out the part where crissy put his hands over his ears and drowned out pat buchanan's response with LaLALALA.
how the heck does he define "working"?
July 16, 2008 - 15:01 ET by wizardjr15 of 18 goals met. Terrorist violence down 90%. The economy growing. Infrastructure and services expanding. Even that butt biscuit Al Sadr has left the field. Piles of dead Al Qaeda and other Islamofascists.
And all that indicates the surge is "not working"??? Welcome back from Wonderland Alice. How's the weather?
I just thought of it. The
July 16, 2008 - 15:52 ET by athoughtor2I just thought of it. The surge isn't working for his side, so we shoudl all apologize for jumping down his throat for making such a statement.
Chris Matthews is Disturbing
July 16, 2008 - 17:45 ET by deerjerkydavePat was just reciting public opinion and Matthews took it to be Pat's opinion. And then the insults just came pouring in from Chris to Pat, all with a fake smile. Speaking of "intellectual confidence" Chris, take a hard look at yourself!