Consider Huckabee's reply to a question from Sunday co-host Jenna Wolfe [a resident, coincidentally, of Chappaqua, NY, home to Bill and Hillary.]
JENNA WOLFE: Governor, Mitt Romney said that evangelicals who vote for you would basically be handing the party's nomination over to a very liberal John McCain. I see you're smiling there. What is your reaction to that?Just how liberal John McCain is or isn't [and I would say he holds liberal positions on, among other issues, immigration, taxes, ANWR, campaign-finance and global warming] can be debated. But if Huckabee is truly trying to defeat John McCain, why would he spend his time defending McCain against Romney's criticism? I'd say the Arkansan doth protest too much. It certainly seems he's in this for whatever he can get from McCain.
MIKE HUCKABEE: Well I think he's got it just a little bit wrong. People who vote for Mitt Romney might be handing it over to John McCain. But let's be fair. John McCain is not a liberal. I think that's nonsense. One of the reasons Mitt Romney's campaign has not been able to get traction even though he spent $100 million is that statements like that are ludicrous. John McCain and I differ on immigration; we differ on stem-cell research; we differ on the human-life amendment. So there's some areas where we're different. But to call him a liberal is a pretty big stretch, especially from a guy who still believes in gun control, who's a recent convert to the pro-life movement, who still has a real problem figuring out where he stands on a host of issues. I just think that's ludicrous, and that's why we feel like we're going into this, if it is a two-man race, it's John McCain and Mike Huckabee.
Aside: Romney has racked up wins in Michigan, Nevada, Wyoming and Maine, while Huckabee ever since Iowa, with the excepton of SC where he finished a competitive second, has been a distant also-ran. So if Romney "has not been able to get traction," you'd have to say that Huck is stuck in reverse.
—Mark Finkelstein is a NewsBusters contributing editor and host of Right Angle. Contact him at mark@gunhill.net.




















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"But if Mike Huckabee is truly trying to defeat John McCain..."
February 3, 2008 - 16:57 ET by RJ"why would he spend his time defending McCain against Romney's criticism?"
That's too logical a question for the Huckster and his supporters, Mark. What he's doing is obvious to the world.
As to the why, I have to disagree with those who think he's doing it in hopes of getting some kind of "appointment." He's doing it for religion and religion only.
Hi RJ - I can't say I agree there
February 3, 2008 - 17:14 ET by Dee BunkJust because some of Huckabee's supporters are anti-morman doesn't mean he is.
Dee...
February 3, 2008 - 17:19 ET by motherbeltDee...
Huck is the guy who asked "Don't Mormons believe Jesus and the devil are brothers?"
He pretended it was an innocent question, but I don't believe it was; he wanted to get that "out there." I'm with RJ on this.....
Right, motherbelt
February 3, 2008 - 17:26 ET by RJEarly on, Huckabee laid out his religious objections fairly openly (and with a pretend innocence), but once he made sure his followers understood his position, he backed off.
motherbelt - I didn't know about that
February 3, 2008 - 17:30 ET by Dee BunkIt is pretty low if he did say that.
Yes he did. Here is the Fox
February 3, 2008 - 17:41 ET by motherbeltYes he did. Here is the Fox story on it.
I thought I remembered seeing video of it at the time, but I can't find it now.
I'm confused too
February 3, 2008 - 18:12 ET by onlybeef42Though Huckabee has gotten plenty of things wrong the 'confusion' about Mormon's belief on Satan and Jesus is understandable.
Take the following excerpt from their web site: "A Savior and Leader
Was Needed When the plan for our salvation was presented to us in the
spirit world, we were so happy that we shouted for joy (see Job 38:7).
We understood that we would have to leave our heavenly home for a time.
We would not live in the presence of our heavenly parents. While we
were away from them, all of us would sin and some of us would lose our
way. Our Heavenly Father knew and loved each one of us. He knew we
would need help, so he planned a way to help us. We needed a Savior to
pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our
Father said, "Whom shall I send?" (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers
offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called
Jehovah, said, "Here am I, send me" (Abraham 3:27). Jesus was willing
to come to the earth, give his life for us, and take upon himself our
sins. He, like our Heavenly Father, wanted us to choose whether we
would obey Heavenly Father's commandments. He knew we must be free to
choose in order to prove ourselves worthy of exaltation. Jesus said,
"Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever" (Moses 4:2).
Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, "Behold, here am I,
send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one
soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me
thine honor" (Moses 4:1). Satan wanted to force us all to do his will.
Under his plan, we would not be allowed to choose. He would take away
the freedom of choice that our Father had given us. Satan wanted to
have all the honor for our salvation." (http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as
siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
Below are two Mormon blog sites which after a length explanation state to effect Jesus and Satan are 'spiritual' brothers, which makes it pretty confusing to me too.
http://www.lightplan...
http://onlymormon.bl...
We had that discussion
February 3, 2008 - 18:26 ET by motherbeltWe had that discussion before. The point is: why did Huckabee make it a point to bring that up? Because he knew it would "put off" a lot of evangelicals; they wouldn't care what the "reasoning" behind the statement was, or if his "confusion" was "understandable." He knew a lot of people would find the idea repugnant.
New here sorry for repost
February 3, 2008 - 18:41 ET by onlybeef42New here sorry for repost then
Sorry, onlybeef... I didn't
February 3, 2008 - 19:22 ET by motherbeltSorry, onlybeef... I didn't mean it as a rebuke. I just meant that in my opinion the reasoning behind the misunderstanding was secondary to Huckabee's apparent inention to make it into a black mark against Romney.
I was trying to be brief. Please don't let my heavy-handed comment discourage you from posting and contributing here... we are always glad to have new voices.
And a belated "Welcome!"
Ending the Mormon Jesus and Satan Brother Myth
February 4, 2008 - 08:04 ET by PopularTechMormons believe that God is the father of all. Thus technically they could be considered brothers, one GOOD (Jesus) the other BAD (Satan). They clearly worship the GOOD - Jesus and God. Anything else is dishonest.
This is no different then Christians believing all men are brothers and it is your job to help those who have gone astray find the right path. It would be just as ignorant to say that Christians idiolize criminals because you consider them brothers who lost their way and want to help them.
Huckabee knew exactly what he was doing by playing on the fears of the ignorant who do not seek to learn the truth but instead latch on to ridiculous fears. I cannot believe I am defending the Mormon Religion which I find to be ridiculous in many ways but not dangerous or evil. If anything Mormons are excessive, they don't smoke, drink or do drugs. Hardly a bad role model for Kids and Morality.
Huckabee Is Not Alone in Ignorance on Mormonism
"It’s an attack question," Mr. Gordon said, “because it starts with a kernel of truth and shapes it into something that most Mormons wouldn’t recognize about their faith.”
In Mormon theology, God is literally the father of all beings, and all beings once existed in a “premortal” state as “spirit beings,” said Robert L. Millet a professor of religion at Brigham Young University, a Mormon institution in Provo, Utah. Jesus was God’s first-born son, and everyone who came after that, including Satan could be considered the siblings of Jesus, he said.
“Latter-day Saints believe that all of us, Christ included, existed in a premortal existence, as spirits,” Mr. Millet said. “Yes, Jesus and Lucifer were in that premortal existence, together. But what we need to make very clear is that Jesus was God and there was never a time when Jesus and
Lucifer were on the same plane.”
To say Jesus and Satan were brothers, Mr. Gordon said, is like saying, “Do you know you’re related to Adolf Hitler because we’re all part of the same family of man?”
"We believe, as other Christians believe and as Paul wrote, that God is the father of all," said the spokeswoman, Kim Farah. "That means that all beings were created by God and are his spirit children. Christ, on the other hand, was the only begotten in the flesh and we worship him as the son of God and the savior of mankind. Satan is the exact opposite of who Christ is and what he stands for."
Fine you don't agree with it but that is much different then lying and implying they worship the Devil.
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Yeah Pop Tech - It's like saying Chrisitians believe that Satan
February 4, 2008 - 10:19 ET by Dee BunkIs an Angel. It's technically true but he's a fallen Angel.
Christian Voters
February 5, 2008 - 07:46 ET by BritcomSo do you think it matters to Christians that a lot of the stuff that Mormons teach about Jesus is not in the Bible?
Presidental elections are not about theological pi$$ing contests
February 5, 2008 - 08:28 ET by RJBut that's exactly what Huckabee and his supporters have tried to make it.
The ONLY reason Huckebee has stayed in the contest is that Romney is a Mormon. He's running for Head Bigot.
Mormophobia
February 5, 2008 - 08:39 ET by BritcomSo, you don't think it could have anything to do with Romney having been pro-gun control, pro-choice, pro-amnesty, or pro-taxes...(excuse me, pro-fees)?
Well, at least you've named it properly, Britcom
February 5, 2008 - 09:32 ET by RJ"Mormonphobia" is exactly what underlies both Huckabee and many of his evangelical supporters.
At the beginning of his campaign, Huckabee made it clear, with his religious "questions" and references, how he felt about Mormons. At the same time, anti-Mormon evangelicals on this board and elsewhere began attacking Romney based on his religion.
Once that message got out, Huckabee and the rest of the anti-Mormon crowd changed tactics and began trumping up phony "issues", like the phony "fee-tax" non-issue you reference above. It doesn't matter how clearly and thoroughly your positions are refuted and defeated in logical argument, you just keep repeating the same things over and over....because you understand that the underlying message of Mormonphobia remains.
"...and who expended all of his energies on preserving his opinions from contaminaton..." -Michael Chabon, "Gentlemen of the Road"
Wow, I didn't know I understood that.
February 5, 2008 - 12:19 ET by BritcomI am a Hunter supporter who came over to Huckabee when Hunter endorsed him. Hunter said he couldn't support Romney because of the China deal Romney has going with Bain Capital.
Do you think Hunter is Mormophobic too?
It shouldn't bother Christians Britcom
February 5, 2008 - 08:32 ET by Dee BunkHe's not trying to convert anyone. He's not running for spiritual leader and there is nothing he would do that would impact Christians negatively.
wouldn't impact Christians negatively...
February 5, 2008 - 08:47 ET by BritcomSuppose Romney were to have an interest in signing legislation that would make descriminating against homosexuals illegal? Would that impact Christians negativly in their view.
If McCain wins it's going to be from dirty tricks
February 3, 2008 - 17:07 ET by Dee Bunklike splitting the vote, turning states into winner take all and bringing up unsubstantiated bogus claims on the eve of an election. Romney would be way ahead if it were a two man race. McCain only has mythical support that has been manufactured by the media. He has very little real support in $'s and he wouldn't even be ahead if it were not for the winner take all thing.
I like Huckabee, and would love to see him on the ticket with Romney, but if he ends up causing McCain to win, I'll lose a lot of respect for him.
I think people are wising up to the trickery going on and Romney is going to pull ahead after Super Tues.
LOL @ Huck
February 3, 2008 - 17:13 ET by candanceYeah, McCain is against the Bible on stem-cell research and a pro-life amendment....but other than that he's conservative.
Apparently telling lies about Mitt Romney is endorsed by the Bible. And saying that the earth will be overcome with massive flooding - even though God told Noah otherwise - is endorsed by the Bible. And opposing a ban on gay marriage is endorsed by the Bible. And personally attacking Jerry Falwell is endorsed by the Bible. And saying "f--- you" on the Senate floor is endorsed by the Bible.
Nah, I just can't see where people say McCain is no conservative.
Thanks for clearing that up Mr. Preacher Man.
This is all too reminiscent of Caiaphas being in cahoots with the Romans. Whatever it takes to look out for #1.
"And saying "f--- you" on
February 3, 2008 - 22:50 ET by RESTLESS 1"And saying "f--- you" on the Senate floor is endorsed by the Bible."
The Bible probably doesn't endorse uttering such any where. I, however am amazed that it is not uttered more often on the Senate floor, on the floor in the House, in the offices...
Let's just be thankful I have no desire to be a DC denizen. I'm quite sure that I would make that phrase common parlance during any time I spent around any of those supposed to uphold our interests in DC.
RESTLESS 1,
February 4, 2008 - 00:24 ET by R D HelmLol-Actually, that is what I am hoping my fellow real conservatives are going to rise up and tell McClinton on Tuesday.
One can only hope.
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. -J.W. von Goethe
Don't you think it would be
February 3, 2008 - 17:19 ET by Captain RepusDon't you think it would be sort of newsworthy to see one of the so-called 'journalists' have the balls to directly ask Huckabilly if he has approached, or been approached by the McAmnesty campaign regarding any VP or cabinet position in the McXxx presidency?
Since every one of the journalists I have seen thus far is totally in the tank for McCain, I won't hold my breath to see this happen.
Since it depends on what
February 3, 2008 - 17:26 ET by Captain RepusSince it depends on what the meaning of the word 'he' is, I amend my post above to define the word 'he' as meaning Huckabilly himself or ANYONE associated with him or his campaign.
I assume his bible tells him not to lie, but leaves open the option of strictly interpreting the words of my question.
Huck can continue to spin
February 3, 2008 - 17:28 ET by bigtimerHuck can continue to spin all of the obvious until he is blue in the face, he is in bed with McCain, for whatever position he is given...period.
Some day books will be written on what went on behind the scenes...I hope sooner rather than later.
Story behind the story
February 3, 2008 - 18:42 ET by celatorYes, and I look foward to learning about the story behind the story in those books. That's always the most interesting part of the political drama. All we have now are shadows on the wall of the cave. They are interesting, but only shadows. It's fun guessing, though.
Liberal's Basic Rule For Discourse: I don't care if you agree with my premises, but I demand that you agree with my conclusions.
Is it just me, or is John
February 3, 2008 - 17:29 ET by Jack BauerIs it just me, or is John McCain turning into Grampa Simpson.
Only less lovable and more nutty?
Huckabee Supporters For Gay Rights?
February 3, 2008 - 17:30 ET by PopularTechI had no idea Huckabee Supporters were pushing the gay rights agenda? At least we know where they stand on the issues!
Gay Republicans Flock To McCain (The New York Sun)
"I think that gay marriage should be allowed if there's a ceremony kind of thing, if you wanna call it that. I don't have any problem with that." - John McCain
McCain: Same-sex marriage ban is un-Republican (CNN)
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I have my doubts as to
February 3, 2008 - 18:15 ET by fitzfongI have my doubts as to whether or not I'll bother voting in the General Election if McCain gets the nomination. However, if he gets the nomination and makes this disgusting, manipulative scumbag his running mate, I won't stay away...I'll vote for the Democrat. Looks like we're going to have to destroy the party to save it.
Hard truth
February 3, 2008 - 18:29 ET by ChrisMillsI hope I don't get a shower of boos here, but Huck has a point. I know the popular sentiment here is that Romney is the only conservative left in the race, but he is no conservative. He raised fees like crazy in Mass and instituted universal health care, so he's not an economic conservative. He changed all of his social positions from the leftist positions he had as governor, so he's not socially conservative. We should just face the facts: there are no conservatives in the race. We just have to pick the lesser of three evils...
That's the problem..
February 3, 2008 - 18:50 ET by celatorI think you've put your finger on an iimportant issue. It's a matter of chosing the lesser of two evils. Neither candidate makes me want to go WHOOPIE!!!!!!!!! Romney is just more tolerable.
The use of the presidential veto has been on my mind lately. I can't even imagine McCain casting a veto for anything the D's propose. He's cast too many votes WITH the D's and against Republican proposals in the past. He's got a record there. But I can see Romney casting a veto on, say, some crazy tax scheme the D's come up with.
Liberal's Basic Rule For Discourse: I don't care if you agree with my premises, but I demand that you agree with my conclusions.
I just caught the tail end
February 3, 2008 - 19:18 ET by motherbeltI just caught the tail end of Fox News Sunday, the panel discussion. Bill Kristol was saying that all the conservatives who didn't pull for Romney early on, waited to see what would happen with Thompson and Giuliani, they sat back and are now all sort of whining because it looks like McCain is going to be the candidate. And that anyone who thought Rudy was going to stop McCain in Florida was just nuts (pretty much, not an exact quote LOL). And now it looks like McCain is going to be the candidate. :-(
I agree with that
February 3, 2008 - 20:05 ET by MidAmericaI agree with that assessment. Us news/political junkies don't realize the political vaccum that Mr. and Mrs Average American lives in. The Republicans had all these relative unknowns running and then falling by the wayside. There was no universal clamor for any one of these guys that broke through the fog of most peoples everyday living so they started pulling the handle for the one name they recognize. And that has brought us to where we are today.
Our nominee that the whole party has to support may end up being selected by a small per centage of the voters. There needs to be a runoff system between the two top vote getters when there are more than two candidates. This could be done by selecting a large state or two that after however many primaries no candidate is getting at least say 40 per cent of the popular vote then the top two candidate square off and may the best candidate win.
There was no universal
February 3, 2008 - 22:44 ET by motherbeltThere was no universal clamor for any one of these guys that broke
through the fog of most peoples everyday living so they started pulling
the handle for the one name they recognize.
That's an excellent way of putting it, MidAmerica! I never thought of it that way. Rudy's name was familiar too, but he started kind of late and didn't come out firing on all cylinders. McCain's just sort of "been there" all along.
I think you have a point.
Hope it not too late
February 3, 2008 - 22:56 ET by celatorI hope it's not too late to turn it around but, yea, I agree, McCain looks like he's going to get the nomination. Probably the lesson for R's and Conservatives is to get some energy going early in the process, and not sit back. If you don't start going early on in the process, the Feds take away your license to whine about outcomes. ;+}
There seems to be a lot of disarray in the R camp this time around. More than usual. Same with the D's. I'm thinking there is a deep cultural sea change going on we haven't quite got a grip on yet, and it's impacting the political landscape (and a bunch of other stuff). What is it? Old vs young? Intergenerational thing? Normal cycle of cultural change? Speeded up ying and yang? I dunno.
Liberal's Basic Rule For Discourse: I don't care if you agree with my premises, but I demand that you agree with my conclusions.
well celator
February 3, 2008 - 23:42 ET by candanceIf you don't start going early on in the process, the Feds take away your license to whine about outcomes
Considering the fact that my state has yet to vote on a single candidate and no one has ever called me to participate in a poll, there isn't much more I can do than spread the word about things.
I'm of the same mind,
February 3, 2008 - 19:54 ET by motherbeltThe use of the presidential veto has been on my mind lately. I can't
even imagine McCain casting a veto for anything the D's propose. -celator
I'm of the same mind. Someone yesterday said at least he won't be in the Senate to conspire with Feingold, or Kennedy or anyone else. I said yes, but they will always conspire, and a President McCain would probably sign whatever they send him.
Yep
February 3, 2008 - 23:00 ET by celatorYep, that seems very likely. It's McCain's thought process I can't get a grip on, and that speaks to his peculiar temperament. Just not comfortable with the guy.
Liberal's Basic Rule For Discourse: I don't care if you agree with my premises, but I demand that you agree with my conclusions.
No boos here, but Romney did
February 3, 2008 - 19:48 ET by Gary P JacksonNo boos here, but Romney did answer this charge in the debate. Most of the fees hadn't changed in a very, very long time, and no longer represented the normal rate one would expect to pay. No one likes to see anything go up in price, but I'll take raising fees over raising taxes all day long.
→ Fees
February 3, 2008 - 19:54 ET by Cool ArrowFees vs Taxes. What's the difference?
♣ a seal
Well Cool, you see, a fee is
February 3, 2008 - 23:05 ET by RESTLESS 1Well Cool, you see, a fee is a set amount one must involuntarily pay for some sort of service or good, and a tax is a set amount one must pay, involuntarily for... hmmmm, I see your point ;>)
Hmmmm
February 3, 2008 - 23:50 ET by NofFee's = Taxes (there is no difference) only how there implimented
"When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat" R. Reagan
OK, if it costs a state $50
February 4, 2008 - 09:26 ET by HermanoOK, if it costs a state $50 to give you a driver's license and they are charging only $25, where should the remainder come from, thin air? Somebody has to pay for the increase in wages, building rent, etc. that have increased in the last 20 years or so. I don't pay $0.19 for bananas any more. It's closer to $0.69.
→ Fair enough Hermano
February 4, 2008 - 09:40 ET by Cool ArrowSo you raise the fee. I still don't see how it's different from a tax.
The same logic applied to Romney's "fees" can be applied to the "taxes" Huckabee and his legislature raised. If you've ever driven through Arkansas, you probably know they have some of the worst roads in the country. And Arkansas rated something like 39th among states in quality of education. Ok, he improved the roads and got the schools ranked somewhere near the top 10 and his constituents rewarded him with reelection and he left after 10 years with something like a 55% approval rating.
The metoods by which both candidates raised revenue were fair enough. What I consider unfair is one candidate claiming the other raised taxes while taking semantic cover behind something as transparent as "fees.
Fees get passed on to the consumer just the same as school taxes get passed along to the apartment dweller through rent increases.
♣ a seal
They both pay for government
February 4, 2008 - 12:04 ET by HermanoThey both pay for government programs, yes. But taxes are levied to pay for programs that the government deems necessary. Fees are a per-use thing - just like if I went and bought a sandwich or widget. If I don't eat the sandwich, why should I pay for it? I agree, in principle, that since they support government programs they could be considered "taxes." If a driver's license program, for example, was set up to pay for the program based on general tax revenue, then I would agree that either a fee applied to or raised, would effectively be a tax increase. As far as I know, programs of this nature are paid for solely from the revenue they generate. If I consider that any money going into a government-run program a tax, then a fee would be a tax. But regardless, someone has to pay for it. And I KNOW what my money is buying.
In my state
February 3, 2008 - 23:08 ET by celatorIn my state. which has gifted its residents with the highest total tax burden in the nation, the legislature has been adding fees to everything for several years. This lets them brag about creating "tax reform", as they like to tell us. But we asked them for tax reduction. Guess the message to them got garbled up. Fees are a form of tax, for sure. It's more money taken from our pockets.
Liberal's Basic Rule For Discourse: I don't care if you agree with my premises, but I demand that you agree with my conclusions.
Romney is a Conservative
February 3, 2008 - 19:52 ET by PopularTechRomney: Extend the Bush Tax Cuts (Video) (2min)
Romney Is First To Sign No Tax Pledge (The New York Sun)
Romney Vetoed More Than 800 Budget Line-Items (707 were overturned by the liberal Massachusetts Legislature)
- Romney convinced the unfriendly State Legislature to grant him unilateral power to make budget cuts in 2003
- Romney unveiled $343 million in cuts to cities, healthcare, and state agencies in 2003
- Romney successfully consolidated the social service and public health bureaucracy in 2003
- Romney eliminated half of the executive branch's press positions, saving $1.2 million in 2003
- Romney successfully forced Medicaid recipients to make co-payments for some services in 2003
- Romney successfully pushed for legislation forcing new state workers to contribute 25% of their health insurance costs in 2003
- Romney proposed to revolutionize the Massachusetts state pension system by moving it to a defined contribution system in 2003
- Romney pushed to revamp the Pacheco Law, a union-backed measure that makes it nearly impossible to privatize state services in 2003
- Romney called for the privatization of the University of Massachusetts medical school in 2003
- Romney proposed measures to eliminate civil service protection for all municipal workers except police and firefighters and exempt low-cost public construction jobs from the state's wage law in 2003
- Romney proposed easing pricing regulations on Massachusetts retailers in 2003
- Romney Vetoed A Provision That Would Have Renewed A Prescription Drug Tax in 2003
- Romney proposed easing decades-old state regulations on wetlands in 2004
- Romney Vetoed Retroactive Pay Increases For State Employees in 2004
- Romney proposed cutting the state's income-tax rate from 5.3% to 5.0% in 2004, 2005 and 2006
- Romney succeeded in passing a bill preventing the capital gains tax from being applied retroactively in 2005
- Romney signed legislation that provided property tax relief to seniors in 2005
- Romney signed legislation establishing a two-day tax-free shopping holiday in 2005
- Romney fought for welfare legislation increasing the number of hours each week recipients must work and establishing a five-year limit for receiving benefits in 2005
- Romney aggressively pushed to deregulate Massachusetts' "Soviet-style" auto insurance industry in 2005
- Romney Vetoed a bill limiting the ability of out-of-state wineries to ship directly to Massachusetts consumers, calling the legislation "anti-consumer" in 2005
- Romney used his emergency fiscal powers to make $425 million worth of cuts in 2006
- Romney Vetoed the employer mandate that requires businesses with 11 or more full-time employees to provide health insurance in 2006
- Romney Vetoed an increase in the minimum wage from $6.75 to $8.00 in 2006
- Romney Signed a bill streamlining the state's cumbersome permitting process for new businesses in 2006
- Romney Line-Item Vetoed $100,000 For A Gazebo On Sunset Lake In Braintree in 2006
- Romney Vetoed $150,000 For The University Of Massachusetts To Study The Winter Moth in 2006
- Romney Vetoed $4 Million To Research The Efficiency Of The Internal Combustion Engine in 2006
- Romney has ruled out the option of raising Social Security taxes, embraced the idea of reducing the growth rate of future benefits, and supports personal accounts in 2007
Romney increased fees amounted to $260 million a year, and elimination of corporate tax "loopholes" brought in another $174 million a year. He never raised taxes
He is also a social conservative. He clearly said when he was running for governor that he was personally against abortion but would not do anything to change the current pro-choice law. All of his actions as governor demonstrate a Pro-life position:
Romney: "Marriage is Between a Man and a Woman" (Video) (1min)
Romney Fights For Marriage Vote (Video) (3min)
2003 - Massachusetts Governor Vows to Pursue Marriage Amendment (USAToday)
2004 - Romney Urges Constitutional Ban on Same Sex Marriage (USAToday)
One Man, One Woman (The Wall Street Journal)
Romney Announces Abstinence Education Program (Boston News)
Mass. Governor Mitt Romney Vetoes embryonic Stem-Cell Bill (FOXNews)
Mitt Romney Warns of 'Orwellian' Stem Cell Research (NewsMax)
"It is wrong to allow science to take an assembly-line approach to the production of human embryos, the creation of which will be rooted in experimentation and destruction" - Mitt Romney
Mass. Governor Mitt Romney Vetoes Emergency Contraception Bill (FOXNews)
Mitt Romney: Why I Vetoed Contraception Bill (Boston Globe)
To claim otherwise is simply dishonest. This is what anyone realizes who researched him.
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Romulan Conservatism...
February 5, 2008 - 07:36 ET by BritcomHey, Mitt Romney is a Real Conservative we are told. But is he really a
true believer? I wondered, so I did a little checking. Good thing we
have YouTube. :^)
Romney's "Conservative" positions explained, IN HIS OWN WORDS CAUGHT ON VIDEO.
(h/t YouTube)
Repetitive postings of lies and half-truths
February 5, 2008 - 08:35 ET by RJDoesn't make them true, Britcom. As Popular Tech so clearly proved in response to ths same C&P elsewhere, nothing you said can be supported.
Romney for or against Gay Rights?
February 5, 2008 - 12:05 ET by BritcomSo, other than Gay Marriage, is Romney still for Gay Rights? Or has he adopted a more conservative position on that?
Romney on Gay Rights
February 5, 2008 - 12:20 ET by PopularTechIf you consider allowing homosexuals hospital visitation rights then YES he is for "gay rights". I would call it common sense. He is completely opposed and always has been to gay marriage, yet it does not stop the simple minded ignorant sheep from lying about his position.
Romney: "Marriage is Between a Man and a Woman" (Video) (1min)
Romney Fights For Marriage Vote (Video) (3min)
2003 - Massachusetts Governor Vows to Pursue Marriage Amendment (USAToday)
2004 - Romney Urges Constitutional Ban on Same Sex Marriage (USAToday)
Romney is so hardcore Pro-Gay Rights he wrote this...
One Man, One Woman - A Citizen's Guide to Protecting Marriage (The Wall Street Journal)
Which lead to this...
Eleven States Ban Gay Marriage (FOXNews)
Wow! Talk about being Pro-Gay rights. He is so hardcore pro-gay rights that they are endorsing McCain! What planet are you people on?
Gay Republicans Flock To McCain (The New York Sun)
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
My question was: "other than Gay Marriage"
February 5, 2008 - 12:35 ET by BritcomWho can visit someone in the hospital is a hospital policy, not a public policy. I don't see anyone trying enact a law that bans gays from hospital visits.
For example: Does Mitt Romney still support Gay adoption, what about Civil Unions and homosexual sex education in public schools?
Wrong Britcom
February 5, 2008 - 12:43 ET by RJBecause hospital visits are already based on legalities (i.e. next-of-kin status, who is considered "family", etc) it also has to be resolved legally.
Does Mitt Romney still support...
February 5, 2008 - 13:11 ET by BritcomDoes Mitt Romney still support Gay adoption, what about Civil Unions and homosexual sex education in public schools?
Britcom... He did in 94'
February 5, 2008 - 13:21 ET by Clear thinkerBritcom...
He did in 94' when he was running for the Senate.
The Conservative movement is about to be reborn.
Congratulations, Clear and Britcom
February 5, 2008 - 13:31 ET by RJ...for being born into perfection. How nice for you that you didn't have to grow or change. That makes it easy to condemn others, right?
"We've been discovering that evangelicals aren't as conservative as we thought." -Carlson Tucker
RJ does he support Gay Adoptions...
February 6, 2008 - 01:30 ET by BritcomSo, are you saying that Romney no longer supports Gay adoptions, Civil Unions, and homosexual sex education?
Yes, I am, Britcom
February 6, 2008 - 14:02 ET by RJDo you have evidence to the contrary?
"I really like Mike Huckabee." -uber lib Mika Brezinski
Romney's Log Cabin Club Letter (I found it!)
February 7, 2008 - 03:19 ET by BritcomSource: The American Spectator More >>
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Source: MassResistance More >>
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Source: BayWindows More >>
Works with the Anti-Mormon Bigots - I Mean Huckabee Supporters
February 5, 2008 - 08:41 ET by PopularTech1. He raised fees to match the cost of the service provided which LOWERS taxes by not subsidizing them. The fees increases amounted to $260 million a year not the other ridiculous amounts.
2. He literally said that they should be allowed to APPLY FOR CITIZENSHIP - do you know what that means? Anyone that is not a citizen can apply. This has nothing to do with Amnesty.
3. Having tough gun laws on say the MISUSE of guns does not make you pro-gun control.
4. That was redited as was the whole clip to cut off and manipulated what he said. He in no way supports quotas or that the government should impose standards on hiring by private enterprises or by the government. He was talking about a private, information oriented approach to seeking diversity.
5. Um, what part of that did you not understand about China? That is not a Pro-China position that is a realitic position.
6. He invested in RUSSIAN COMPANIES! By this logic everytime you buy gas from a Lukoil gas station you are supporting Iran. Give me a break.
7. Did you not just hear him say he supports the Boy Scouts of America's Decision to decide who it wants to allow in?
8. He clearly says he is "PERSONALLY PRO-LIFE BUT DOES NOT IMPOSE HIS BELIEFS ON OTHERS". Hardly a raving Pro-Choice position.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
I don't understand...
February 5, 2008 - 10:08 ET by Britcom1. He raised fees to match the cost of the service provided which
LOWERS taxes by not subsidizing them. The fees increases amounted to
$260 million a year not the other ridiculous amounts.
Okay, so he raised fees by $260 million per year... so then if he were president, it would be okay with you if he raised Federal fees in a similar way?
2. He literally said that they should be allowed to APPLY FOR
CITIZENSHIP - do you know what that means? Anyone that is not a citizen
can apply. This has nothing to do with Amnesty.
So, illegal aliens don't have to be deported, but they can apply for citizenship, and presumably be granted it, and what happens to them while we are waiting for them to get citizenship? Do they keep their jobs? Do we prosecute their bosses for hiring them? Do we let their kids stay in school? Do we give them Social Security benefits?
3. Having tough gun laws on say the MISUSE of guns does not make you pro-gun control.
Some people believe wanting any gun laws make you pro-gun control. So what would you consider a "misuse" of a gun?
4. That was redited as was the whole clip to cut off and manipulated
what he said. He in no way supports quotas or that the government
should impose standards on hiring by private enterprises or by the
government. He was talking about a private, information oriented
approach to seeking diversity.
So Romney is pro-diversity. But isn't that a liberal idea? Wouldn't it be better for business if you hired the best person for the job, even if it meant that the management of your company might consist of all white Anglo-Saxon-protestant men?
5. Um, what part of that did you not understand about China? That is not a Pro-China position that is a realitic position.
I did not understand the part about helping Americans to do business with a Communist Dictatorship that doesn't allow its citizens freedom of Religion, Press, Speech, Assembly, Unreasonable search and seizure, or the right to life, liberty, or property. Do you think Romney wants to do business with Cuba too?
6. He invested in RUSSIAN COMPANIES! By this logic everytime you buy
gas from a Lukoil gas station you are supporting Iran...
Well... yes.
7. Did you not just hear him say he supports the Boy Scouts of America's Decision to decide who it wants to allow in?
Why would Romney say,"I feel that all people should be allowed to participate in the Boy Scouts regardless of their sexual orientation" if he is a conservative? Does he still believe this, or has he changed his mind on this too?
8. He clearly says he is "PERSONALLY PRO-LIFE BUT DOES NOT IMPOSE HIS BELIEFS ON OTHERS". Hardly a raving Pro-Choice position.
Okay, so Romney would not "personally" have an abortion, but what about the right to life for the unborn? Clearly he did not express a right to life position. Isn't that just a samantic cover up for being pro-choice? Doesn't Hillary maintain that same position? Isn't that really a liberal view of abortion?
The Reality
February 5, 2008 - 12:37 ET by PopularTech"Okay, so he raised fees by $260 million per year... so then if he were
president, it would be okay with you if he raised Federal fees in a
similar way?"
If those Federal Fees did not match their costs of course! I would also know he would want to reduce their costs and eliminate any unnecessary fees. See the problem with those who do not understand economics or never ran a business they cannot comprehend how this lowers taxes.
"So, illegal aliens don't have to be deported, but they can apply for
citizenship, and presumably be granted it, and what happens to them
while we are waiting for them to get citizenship? Do they keep their
jobs? Do we prosecute their bosses for hiring them? Do we let their
kids stay in school? Do we give them Social Security benefits?"
He never said they do not have to be deported he said they can apply to be citizens. Stating things he did not say is lying. Romney wants to make sure the only ones employed are American Citizens here legally. Bosses who hired illegals would be severly fined and the illegals deport themselves. Their kids should not be allowed to stay in school and they should not get social security benefits.
"Some people believe wanting any gun laws make you pro-gun control. So what would you consider a "misuse" of a gun?"
I guess we should just be able to shoot guns off in the middle of a movie in public and wave them at kids going to school while laughing. You figure out what misuse would mean.
"So Romney is pro-diversity. But isn't that a liberal idea? Wouldn't it
be better for business if you hired the best person for the job, even
if it meant that the management of your company might consist of all
white Anglo-Saxon-protestant men?"
I agree but claiming he was for government controlled Affirmative Action is a lie.
"I did not understand the part about helping Americans to do business
with a Communist Dictatorship that doesn't allow its citizens freedom
of Religion, Press, Speech, Assembly, Unreasonable search and seizure,
or the right to life, liberty, or property. Do you think Romney wants
to do business with Cuba too?"
So your position is we should stop doing business with China? Or should we through trade agreements force them to meet our standards?
"Well... yes."
Then I support Iran everyday and don't care. I buy gas from whoever is the cheapest.
"Why would Romney say,"I feel that all people should be allowed to participate in the Boy Scouts regardless of their sexual orientation" if he is a conservative? Does he still believe this, or has he changed his mind on this too?"
Since he respects the boy scouts decisions to make it up themselves, his opinion would not change what the boyscouts do. What do you think Gays should be in society? Should we have camps for them away from the public?
"Okay, so Romney would not "personally" have an abortion, but what about
the right to life for the unborn? Clearly he did not express a right to
life position. Isn't that just a samantic cover up for being
pro-choice? Doesn't Hillary maintain that same position? Isn't that
really a liberal view of abortion?"
Well this is a legitimate position he changed on, if you do not believe he changed or think he can change anything about this well that is up to you. But the way he presents the position is not that of the Pro-Choice crowd.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
"Some people believe
February 5, 2008 - 14:31 ET by Britcom"Some people believe wanting any gun laws make you pro-gun control. So what would you consider a "misuse" of a gun?"
I guess we should just be able to shoot guns off in the middle of a
movie in public and wave them at kids going to school while laughing.
You figure out what misuse would mean.
Isn't it a different thing to say you can't damage property or commit assult with a gun, then it is to say you can't have a gun or a certain kind of gun? If I were in a movie theater and I were assaulted by a man with a knife, is it okay to shoot the gun then?
---
"So Romney is pro-diversity. But isn't that a liberal idea? Wouldn't it
be better for business if you hired the best person for the job, even
if it meant that the management of your company might consist of all
white Anglo-Saxon-protestant men?"
I agree but claiming he was for government controlled Affirmative Action is a lie.
Should we call it Diversity Monitoring instead?
---
"I did not understand the part about helping Americans to do business
with a Communist Dictatorship that doesn't allow its citizens freedom
of Religion, Press, Speech, Assembly, Unreasonable search and seizure,
or the right to life, liberty, or property. Do you think Romney wants
to do business with Cuba too?"
So your position is we should stop doing business with China? Or should
we through trade agreements force them to meet our standards?
I think we should have the same policy as the one we have with Cuba.
---
"Why would Romney say,"I feel that all people should be allowed to participate in the Boy Scouts regardless of their sexual orientation" if he is a conservative? Does he still believe this, or has he changed his mind on this too?"
Since he respects the boy scouts decisions to make it up themselves,
his opinion would not change what the boyscouts do. What do you think
Gays should be in society? Should we have camps for them away from the
public?
Isn't homosexuality a vice, and shouldn't we be protecting our children from exposure to it at least until they reach major age like we do with gambling and smoking?
---
"Okay, so Romney would not "personally" have an abortion, but what about
the right to life for the unborn? Clearly he did not express a right to
life position. Isn't that just a samantic cover up for being
pro-choice? Doesn't Hillary maintain that same position? Isn't that
really a liberal view of abortion?"
Well this is a legitimate position he changed on, if you do not believe
he changed or think he can change anything about this well that is up
to you. But the way he presents the position is not that of the
Pro-Choice crowd.
Perhaps Romney's pro-life conversion is sincere, but then, shouldn't we be concerned that Romney may, after he is elected, undergo a further conversion and decide that cutting taxes and government spending is the wrong way to go?
Would you say that Romney was a conservative before he changed his stance on abortion, or was that the moment when when he could truly be called a conservative?
Hey Chris
February 3, 2008 - 20:06 ET by candanceI'll not disagree that Romney is only a Plan B candidate with several issues. However, some of your points are exaggerated, and you seem to be missing the point of this article.
-Romney is running as a social conservative now because he claims a "Damascus Road" conversion which he has since stuck to wholeheartedly. Huckabee supporters reference Huckabee's change of heart regarding immigration as a sincere change of heart - but offer no such luxury to Romney. McCain supporters accept a transparent lie for his votes against the tax cuts - but take Romney to task for his own explanations.
-Contrary to popular opinion he did not institute government healthcare. He made it a requirement that everyone should have some kind of healthcare - allowing them freedom to choose private plans first and only choosing SCHIP if they couldn't afford anything else. The liberal state congress of Massachussets pressured him to do something and he figured that would be a good compromise.
-Lastly, the point of this article is to point out Huckabee's double standard. He attacks Romney as a phoney conservative but praises McCain. What gain does Huckabee get from defending McCain, unless he's expecting a kickback?
-
It sure looks as if Senator
February 3, 2008 - 22:28 ET by jdhawkIt sure looks as if Senator McCain will be our nominee for president. I think that is unfortunate. Governor Romney is the better choice.
What may happen has happened before. The party "elders" and the voters put President Ford against Governor Carter. Carter won. His presidency was a disaster. He is the worst president that our nation has had for many decades.
So, McCain will get the nod and lose against whatever the dimocrats put forth. Whoever that is will do a dismal job. Then, we will elect Governor Romney.
Meanwhile, this may take a long as eight years to play out . . .
jdhawk... So I am taking
February 3, 2008 - 22:33 ET by bigtimerjdhawk...
So I am taking it you are deciding it is already planned out?
Pathetic...but nothing new.
As I said in the Super Bowl
February 3, 2008 - 22:38 ET by motherbeltAs I said in the Super Bowl thread...the Giants won! Nothing is impossible! No one is "inevitable!" Maybe there's hope yet!
motherbelt
February 3, 2008 - 22:45 ET by shawn228According to Pop Techs stats, you might even think Romneys in the lead :-)
"Suck it"
Pop Tech
I clearly said McCain was not the overwhelming Choice
February 4, 2008 - 07:12 ET by PopularTechI made no claim that Romney was in the lead, McCain is barely and thanks to environmentalists NOT conservatives, this is not being reported by the media. The reality is the race is incredibly close and the MSM wants to pretend that McCain is the runaway favorite when nothing could be further from the truth. My figures are the reality...
Primary Results:
87% of Republicans Do Not Want McCain in Iowa
63% of Republicans Do Not Want McCain in New Hampshire
61% of Republicans Do Not Want McCain in Michigan
87% of Republicans Do Not Want McCain in Nevada
67% of Republicans Do Not Want McCain in South Carolina
64% of Republicans Do Not Want McCain in Florida
An average 71.5% of Republicans Do Not Want McCain as the Presidential Nominee
Environmentalists Support McCain in Florida (CNSNews)
"McCain's biggest margin of support came from those who said the environment should be the top issue for the next president. Among these voters, McCain beat Romney 55% to 15%.
Romney's biggest margin came from voters who said immigration should be the top issue for the next president. Among these voters, Romney beat McCain 41% to 15%.
McCain also led Romney among self-identified "moderate" and "liberal" Republican voters, while trailing Romney among self-identified "conservative" Republicans."
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
fees vs. taxes
February 3, 2008 - 23:03 ET by missvotingforreaganRaising fees is not the same as raising taxes. Taxes apply to everybody. Fees apply to those wanting to use something and are generally used to improve something. Taxes are generally used to give equally to everybody whether they pay taxes or not.
Huh?
February 3, 2008 - 23:58 ET by NofSo the Fee applies to something that we've already been taxed for to fund? And if I want to use it, its gonna cost me more? Sounds like a double taxing to me. Only I get screwed twice because i might actually want to use the service
"When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat" R. Reagan
This is as good a place as
February 4, 2008 - 01:41 ET by Gary P JacksonThis is as good a place as any to explain fees vs taxes.
Taxes are placed on people who earn income. Taxes are also assessed on people who buy things. Taxes are assessed on real property.
Fees on the other hand are for things like driver's licenses. Is anyone under the illusion that since they pay income, sales, and property taxes, a driver's license should come with the package? What about license plates, hunting licenses, and other such permits.
I spent a couple years volunteering as head cook at the homeless shelter here. Everyone had to have a heath card and basic training, there's a fee for that. I had to have a food service manager's permit. There was a larger fee for that.
Romney mentioned one during the debate: Septic tank removal. The fee went up something like $100, to haul that stinky mess off. Does anyone think that old septic tank removal is just included in the various taxes you pay?
The thing is, when he rattled off numbers, they sounded like usual, and customary fees that everyone, in every state pays. You pay to have your garbage hauled off. That's a fee. Hell, you pay to have water hauled into your home via the plumbing! That fee is based on the amount you use.
Are you getting the picture? When you pay a fee, you generally get something tangible in return. Taxes, not so much!
I know as conservatives we hate to pay more than our fair share of the tax burden. But bringing up fees, and then saying there is no difference between raising them, and raising taxes is just flat being intellectually dishonest.
If it had been decades since the last fee increase, the people up there should be happy the got off, on the cheap, for so long!
→ Oh, thanks Gary
February 4, 2008 - 06:15 ET by Cool ArrowI especially liked the part about: "just flat being intellectually dishonest."
I'm not going to attack your honesty as you did mine because there's a possibility you haven't thought it through as deeply, or I haven't.
Is it your position the imposition of a fee does not increase the cost of a good or service? If it does, it's a tax.
Septic tank removal? In Mass. this is done by licensed private sector companies. The disposal is taken care of by licensed private sector companies. Other than inspecting the hole, what specifically is the government doing?
Fees get passed on to the consumer just like any other tax. Fees increase the cost of goods and services just like a tax. Will you be equally understanding when the Federal Government imposes Carbon cleanup fees on gasoline? Should we be happy we "got off on the cheap" for decades?
A fee is a tax. I believe that. Our disagreement should not necessarily indicate either of us is a liar.
We disagree, Gary P. Jackson. We have different understandings, Gary P. Jackson. But in your everyday dealings, I wonder how many times you look somebody in the face and call them a liar? Does it contribute something meaningful to the discussion? Is it just so much easier given the anonymity of space and electronics?
♣ a seal
Fees must equal the cost of the Service Provided
February 4, 2008 - 07:02 ET by PopularTechI am all for reducing the cost of services but how service fees work in the free market is they must equal their cost + profit. In Government they must equal their cost otherwise you are subsidizing them through taxes. That is the reality. I firmly agree with Romney that you cannot get something for nothing. Raising fees to cover there costs REDUCES taxes. The solution after that is to cut the cost of the service to reduce the fees. But the Mass Government had been subsidizing their costs through taxation and that had to stop.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
I'm sorry I offended you.
February 4, 2008 - 07:35 ET by Gary P JacksonI'm sorry I offended you. Could have worded it better, but my comment about honesty was meant to address the talking heads that have brought this up.
But now that we are talking, DO YOU think that hauling your garbage off should be part of the taxes you pay? Should your status as a taxpayer grant you driver's license at no additional charge? What about your license plates for your car? When the IRS mails me the tax package, should I expect a hunting license to be attached, gratis?
It is a stretch to call a fee a tax. Yes, you can make that leap, but in my opinion, you are wrong. If you don't use a service, or require a permit, the fees have NO impact on your life. As for Romney raising fees on services, he did what any competent CEO would have done. The state was bleeding cash. He could have raised taxes on everyone, and just make things worse, and have more business leave the state.
Instead, he ordered an audit of the various fee schedules. He found those fees had not been updated in quite some time. Any fiscally astute person would have done the same thing. And yes, instead of griping about it, be happy that for all that time the fees were less than anywhere else. That is only a fact, and why let the cost of things that don't have that great of an individual impact, ruin your day?
As for as the "anonymity of space and electronics", My name is Gary Preston Jackson, I live in Temple, Texas. I am the member of two forums, this one, and Torco's Competition Plus' drag racing forum. So much for anonymity.
I may have used a poor choice of wording, but everyone should understand the meaning. If not, let me say it clearly. Fees are just that, fees. Yes, there are some fees, like garbage pick up, that pretty much everyone pays. (but they are cheaper than if you hauled the stuff to the landfill yourself.) Not everyone is like John Kerry, who will walk into a gun shop and ask "Can I get me a huntin' license?" So folks that don't hunt, don't have to pay a fee.
When you pay a fee, you either have a service done for you, or a privilege extended to you. In other words, you get something tangible, something you can hold in your hand, or see done on your behalf, with your own two eyes.
People can gripe about the hike in fees, but the alternative, raising taxes would have been much much harder to live with. Romney made the right call.
→ Fees vs Taxes
February 4, 2008 - 08:04 ET by Cool ArrowAs a homeowner, I pay property taxes. It's really a fee for the services involved with infrastructure, and it includes school taxes, which are really fees to keep schools open and running.
Why do I make that point? Are apartment dwellers paying those infrastructure and school fees? If a fee is what you pay for a "priviledge", should the school district be charging me school taxes/fees when I have no kids in school anymore, and not charging apartment dwellers who do? Tell me the "priviledge I'm paying for? I thought private property ownership was a "right".
It's my contention fees vs taxes is more government convenience than anything chiseled in stone.
We're seeing the same semantic shell game taking place in Washington. On the one hand, letting the tax cuts lapse isn't a tax increase because it obviously requires another vote to make it permanent. On the other it is a tax increase because its implementation demonstrated the original tax wasn't necessary.
♣ a seal
A Matter of Choice
February 4, 2008 - 08:15 ET by PopularTechThose are taxes because you have no choice about paying School Taxes, they are forced. If you home school your kids you still pay the School Taxes through your property taxes, which needs to change.
Paying for college would be the difference. You have a choice to go to college and government should not subsidize this. This would be the same argument if government subsidizes were elimated for colleges, there cost would go up as much as the market would allow. People would complain in the same way but this would REDUCE taxes. Service Fees must equal their costs. I am firmly in favor of also reducing costs which Romney fought for.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
Are apartment dwellers
February 4, 2008 - 09:23 ET by motherbeltAre apartment dwellers paying those infrastructure and school fees?
Yes, they are, they just don't pay it directly. Because the landlord has to pay them, and passes it on to his renters; it is considered when he sets the rate of rent. No landlord is going to pay all that out of his own pocket.
Just as liberals talk about "taxing businesses." They pass the cost on to their customers. Businesses don't pay taxes; people pay taxes.
Well said, MB. There is a
February 4, 2008 - 09:40 ET by HermanoWell said, MB. There is a cost of doing business and a cost of running a government. A business will not just give you something. They need to stay profitable in order to continue to operate. They will assess a "fee" on their goods or services which covers their costs.
→ That's right motherbelt
February 4, 2008 - 09:49 ET by Cool ArrowAnd I probably shouldn't have left that "passed on to the consumer" bit out of my argument, but didn't think about it until I was daydreaming at a meeting. All that's happening there is that the Government is transferring its collection duties to a private citizen.
It's just my contention that since fees behave just like taxes, they are taxes. In Texas, we're able to renew our drivers licenses online. Shouldn't it follow the reduced paperwork would reduce the fee involved?
The way I see it, a government imposed increase in the cost of living/doing business is a tax regardless of its designation of fee or tax.
♣ a seal
→ But Gary
February 4, 2008 - 09:53 ET by Cool ArrowIf I buy goods delivered by overland trucking, don't I help defray the costs (fees) the trucker incurs in delivering them?
♣ a seal
Yes you do. You also pay
February 4, 2008 - 18:34 ET by Gary P JacksonYes you do. You also pay for the gas, the drivers insurance on the rig he's driving, as well as his health insurance, and that of his family. You pay for the tires, the motor oil, the tractor and trailer itself!
When you buy goods or services, you are helping to pay for every single expense the company incurs. That's how it works.
The big difference though, and this is pretty basic stuff, is a tax is something everyone will pay, regardless of how much in benefits they get in return. An easy example is school property taxes. Whether you got kids or not, if you own property, you are paying for schools.
A fee however, is something you DIRECTLY benefit from. You pay a fee for the privilege to drive. You pay a fee for the privilege to hunt, or fish. If you don't drive hunt or fish, these fees have no real effect on you.
I could go on, but I know you understand this.
→ Taxes vs Fees
February 4, 2008 - 06:59 ET by Cool ArrowSo if I want to buy gasoline, why do I pay a tax instead of a fee? The tax attached to it is for roads, isn't it? Why is it called a tax?
I'm contending it's just a matter of what the government wishes to call it.
It's like the "Building use fees" we used to pay in college. I suppose those kept the cost of tuition down, but the cost of college wasn't any less just because the bill was itemized.
♣ a seal
See comment above.
February 4, 2008 - 07:36 ET by Gary P JacksonSee comment above.
The Grinch's who stole Reagan's legacy
February 4, 2008 - 01:45 ET by Lame CherryI wonder if Huckabee ever gets it in his Arkansas apparently inbred brain that if McCain is only eeking out 30 percent that 70% of the GOP does not like him or McCain.
If 100% of the Democrats can not stand them, then how does Huckabee win with only 20% of the vote.
I find this tag team to destroy Ronald Reagan's legacy absolutely disgusting as it is all planned and does not take in the big picture for a strategy for winning.
I have stated that McCain will win, but in all honesty McCain and Huckabee are quickly becoming the Ron Paul triplets of tactics, lunacy and conspiracy. What happens when poker chip John starts trying to cash in his chips and the Conservatives all get apathy along with evangelicals in once again teaching the RINO's that when we shut up or get betrayed and go away they end up like pop Bush in early retirement.
It is difficult to cuddle up to these foundlings. I know Rush Limbaugh has already tried in sticking up for McCain, but all of this feels like being 18 years old and drunk in Vegas and the fat girl with 20 grand in credit card debt and a boyfriend in prison is trying to convince you it is a good idea to say I DO in sealing the deal.
I do not like John McCain
I do not like Huckabee
I do not like them Sam I am
I do not like what I see
Where is Dr. Seuss when one needs him to change the Grinch's who stole Reagan's legacy growing their heart sizes 10 sizes plus two to be a candidate a Conservative can vote for with joy.
*HIC IACET ARTORIVS REX QVONDAM REXQVE FVTVRVS
Couldn't have said it better
February 4, 2008 - 03:19 ET by Gary P JacksonCouldn't have said it better myself!