Lawrence O'Donnell, already infamous for his in-your-face rant at John O'Neill of the Swiftboat Veterans, is at it again. This time, the object of O'Donnell's obloquy is Mitt Romney, and in particular his Mormon religion. Appearing on last night's McLaughlin group, O'Donnell indulged in an angry, protracted condemnation of Mormonism.
Excerpts:
- This was the worst political speech of my lifetime. Because this man stood there and said to you "this is the faith of my fathers." And you, and none of these commentators who liked this speech realized that the faith of his fathers is a racist faith. As of 1978 it was an officially racist faith, and for political convenience in 1978 it switched. And it said "OK, black people can be in this church." He believes, if he believes the faith of his fathers, that black people are black because in heaven they turned away from God, in this demented, Scientology-like notion of what was going on in heaven before the creation of the earth.
View video here.
- [In full rant mode] He's got to answer, when he was 30 years old and he firmly believed in the faith of his father that black people are inferior. When did he change his mind? Did the religion have to tell him to change his mind? And when he talks about the faith of his father, how about the faith of his great-grandfather, who had five wives?
- His religion is based on the work of a lying, fraudulent, criminal named Joseph Smith who was a racist, who was pro-slavery, whose religion was completely pro-slavery.
- He was given an opportunity to distance himself from the evils of his religion, and he didn't.
- Joseph Smith was a slavery champion, the inventor of this ridiculous religion.
- His religion is full of crazy beliefs. Everyone on this panel thinks his religion is full of crazy beliefs. Everyone of us does. You won't believe it. Do you think the Garden of Eden was in Missouri?
O'Donnell used his show-ending prediction to round on Romney again: "The mainstream media will remain united in its refusal to ask Mitt Romney any questions about the history of his racist, pro-slavery, anti-American and otherwise inexplicable religion."
I'll leave it to others to fully deconstruct O'Donnell's rant. But in response to O'Donnell's repeated claims that Mormonism and Joseph Smith were "pro-slavery," I'd point readers to Jake Tapper's article at ABC News discussing Smith's presidential candidacy of 1844 [emphasis added]:
- It's interesting to note that Smith's campaign in 1844 sought to end slavery.
- Smith's solution was gradualist -- to purchase the freedom of slaves with funds amassed by the reduction in the size of Congress, pay for members of Congress and the sale of public lands.
- "He felt slavery was not right and saw the need to abolish slavery to preserve the nation. But he also realized the need to save the economy of the South." He "refused to take the extreme abolitionist point."
—Mark Finkelstein is a NewsBusters contributing editor and host of Right Angle. Contact him at mark@gunhill.net.















Comments Policy
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December 8, 2007 - 12:22 ET by pocomocoI don't remember O'Donnell being this way in his earlier days.
Could it be that the Clinton machine is at work here?
O'Donell is a "Racist, Bigot"
December 8, 2007 - 12:32 ET by exLibHere is a guy that has written some of the vilest scripts ever put on a TV and allowed to play in prime time in terms of anti-religous bigotry.
How some of his West Wing scripts got by TV producers is understandable, but how some of the shows he was responsible for didn't get the ire of Relgious Conservatives is beyond me.
The one scene where he creates a "Conservative" who "Uses" religious conservatives to win the Presidency and then gives them a lecture, kicks them out of his office telling them they have no seat at the political table, I thought, was beyond the pale.
Also, he was kicked off Scarborough Country a year or two ago for an Anti-Christian rant about The Passion movie. Joe apologized for O'Donell and said that views like his had no place on his show or any Publicly Broadcast TV Program.
Apoplectic is the word and I
December 8, 2007 - 12:25 ET by NortoApoplectic is the word and I feared he would have a stroke during his rant. It was embarassing for him, and his hands were shaking. Playing a Mormon on a tv show qualifies him to make these egregious remarks? So, they let blacks in now. That was then, this is now. Republicans have been on the side of minorities much longer than the Dems, and the Dems keep moving the goal post. If it can't be the people of color, they will beat us with the stick of sexually immoral, chosen life styles
I used to watch this show until the moderator turned into a liberal/progresssive with acute BDS. The panel is usually 3 vs. at a minimum. My tax dollars at work. It is no longer on my list of the few pBS shows I tuned in, and with rabbit ears it limits my selections.
Has every past POTUS be a John 3:3 Christian? I doubt it, and only God knows GWB's heart-and mine, I might add.
Hey,Larry,how about
December 8, 2007 - 12:31 ET by ArmedDadHey,Larry,how about showing some of that moral outrage for Ahmadinejad and the mullahs? Or the Chi-Coms..people who mistreat those they deem inferior.
right on! if Larry was
December 8, 2007 - 15:28 ET by TruthMongerright on! if Larry was spouting all of this vile bigotry towards conservative Islam instead then that would be just fine:)!
Sharia Islam is officially "defamation and bigotry approved" here - I confirmed it my lil' ol' self...
Consequently our complaints here against Larry have no basis - bummer dudes - it's black pot/kettle now - I tried to warn ya...
O'Donnell
December 8, 2007 - 12:35 ET by iveseenitallO'Donnell's feigned moral outrage is modern "liberalism" in action. He refuses to discuss what Romney SAID; he only wants to rail against what he believes Romney IS. What a bigot! Typical "liberal" hypocrisy. These "liberals" never see themselves for what they are---intolerant s.o.b.'s. Ironic, isn't it.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
Look at it this way...
December 8, 2007 - 12:37 ET by sarcasmoNow he's in trouble with the Scientologists, too.
(And for the record, I thought Romney's recent religion speech was a yawner.)
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul. (All purpose anti-slander-link, sadly-needed these days...)
Before I develop this
December 8, 2007 - 12:59 ET by Jack BauerBefore I develop this point, I'd like to emphasize to all my Catholic friends that I am making points here simply to illustrate how easy it is to unfairly attack someone's faith based on what may or may not have happened in the past.
Larry O'Donnell professes to be a Catholic.
So already he is entering an arena by spitting on someone else's religion whilst (presumably) practising his faith, despite the many accusations that could be made against those acting in what they claimed was Catholic doctrine at the time, hundreds of years ago.
For instance, didn't Cortez murder and enslave people in the name of his religion and King who served the Pope?
Didn't the Spanish Inqusition murder people in the name of the Catholic religion at the behest of the church?
And slavery was first abolished NOT by the efforts of the Catholic church but by a Evangelical English Christian called William Wilberforce.
I am sure there were many good Catholics who agreed with this Protestant led movement, just as there were many good Mormons.
So Larry, before you attack the mote in some other guy's religion, check the beam in your own.
The guy is an embarrassing ignoramus, whom I know all Catholics of good faith will condemn outright.
And let's just substitute the word "Jew" or "Muslim" and see how far Larry would have gotten before his mike was pulled on air. Rightly so.
Speaking for myself, no offense taken
December 8, 2007 - 19:18 ET by KC MulvilleReligions are full of sinners, by design, so what can we expect? I'm a proud Catholic, but I don't deny we've committed some horrendous sins. I just deny that those sins invalidate the authority of the church. Just so that no one makes any mistake, we Catholics disagree with Mormons, as we disagree with every other religion to some extent, but disagreement is not disrespect.
As a matter of fact, Catholics should remember the early church. The reason the early church suffered so much persecution wasn't just because the Romans were insane. The Romans were told that the Christians "ate" their god and drank its blood! Cannibals! Savages! What other horrendous practices were these animals capable of?
So, when it comes to hurling insults about bizarre practices, we Christians ought to keep our mouths shut. We were once on the other side of that fence.
KC - thanks. I was only
December 8, 2007 - 19:40 ET by Jack BauerKC - thanks. I was only trying to illustrate how offensive it is to attack a man's religion just because of regrettable things that happened a long time ago. And it seems he can't even be truthful about that either.
O'Donnell should remember that. Especially as so many anti-Christian bigots use that nasty habit to attack Catholicism and Catholics. But he's probably a self-loathing Catholic anyway, because he doesn't seem to exhibit much Christian charity.
Glad to see you're a proud defender of your faith. Amen to that.
reply
December 9, 2007 - 16:28 ET by Wesenpost
-
December 9, 2007 - 10:15 ET by dahliatraversAnd secularism led to the Third Reich. What happened to judging an individual by his/her character and actions, not on the basis of race/creed/color?
As voters, we are in fact evaluating the candidates as to their character and values, what they will do in office and whether we agree with those actions. Specific to Romney now. Does Larry think that Romney is racist? Does he believe that Romney will bring back slavery and polygamy? Presumably not. So can we focus a little, here, Larry?
}}---> dahlia
December 9, 2007 - 10:25 ET by Cool ArrowHaving been raised and schooled in the Mormon faith, isn't it fair to ask what Romney's reaction to the "curse of black skin" found in the book of Mormon meant?
Sorry, but one's views on racial superiority are important at least from a political if not from a theological standpoint.
Remember, these were values he was required to believe at least til he was 30.
-
December 9, 2007 - 11:53 ET by dahliatraversIf that is an actual quote from the Book of Mormon, yes, he should address it. After he does so, this is not a matter on which we need to linger, inasmuch as there are no reports of racist words or actions in his past (unlike for Miss Hillary).
At the same time, Cool Arrow, should we ask Christian candidates in all parties to repudiate specific items in the Bible? At what point does this line of inquiry become a distraction from far more pertinent, impactful issues?
}}---> dahlia
December 9, 2007 - 13:36 ET by Cool ArrowYep, it's in the Book of Mormon.
2 Nephi 5:21-23:
I ♣ My Seal
nice work, Cool Arrow. The
December 10, 2007 - 04:22 ET by Keithnice work, Cool Arrow. The truth shall set this party free of Mitt-killababy-Romney.
Thanks keith
December 10, 2007 - 04:31 ET by Cool ArrowI just don't see this getting swept under the rug. If he believed it, he should admit it. If he didn't believe it, he should confess his reasons for maintaining his silence.
I ♣ My Seal
Cool Arrow
December 10, 2007 - 14:35 ET by Conservative VoiceAnd those same people became more righteous people, even had a Prophet, Samuel the Lamanite. Read the whole book instead of trying to take things out of context to prove a point. Are there racists in the Mormon Church, sure by the law of averages. Is the Mormon Church racist, no.
Its amazing to me at what lengths people will go to to paint my religion in an evil light...the old logic fallicy of if I can prove you wrong I must be right.
Cool, there are more
December 10, 2007 - 14:38 ET by tracheostomyCool, there are more relevant doctrines that muddy the waters enough without having to go back into LDS history.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Cool Arrow
December 10, 2007 - 14:30 ET by Conservative Voiceso you were a Mormon?
zzzzz
December 8, 2007 - 12:44 ET by candanceStill waiting for the rant against Harry Reid for being Mormon.
...
...
*crickets*
...
Hm...looks like an excuse to bash the GOP.
I have to get up early and fill young, impressionable minds with leftwing propaganda. Wish me luck! -Professor TP&C
I left the Mormon Church
December 8, 2007 - 13:19 ET by MikeBI left the Mormon Church over forty years ago. I know some about the Mormon faith, which apparently O'Donnell does not. First of all, many religions, Christian and otherwise, have made doctrinal changes over time. Some of the changes were for political expediency, some were not.
Blacks were always allowed into the Mormon Church. But, until 1976 Black men were not allowed to become members of the priesthood. The reason for this was the Mormon belief that the black coloring was the mark that God put on Cain for having killed Abel. This may or may not appear in the Book of Mormon, I don't recall. As for the Garden of Eden having been in Missouri, I don't recall anything about that. If I recall correctly, they believe that Zion will descend from Heaven into Missouri.
As for Joseph Smith being a criminal, he was a polygamist, which was against the law in the United States. He and his followers were persecuted for it, and some were lynched by the self-righteous like O'Donnell. Many of the Christian churches of that era taught that slavery was okay. They quoted scripture from the Pentateuch, wherein God gave instructions to the Isrealites on how to treat their slaves. I believe Joseph Smith was a plagiarist in that much of the Book of Mormon is word for word exactly the same as the King James version of the Bible, even passages which many translators say are mis-translated.
It is asinine for O'Donnell to rail against what he considers silly or crazy beliefs of Romney's faith. All religions, if you are not a member, have beliefs that an outsider would consider silly, crazy, or heretical. As matters of faith, they cannot be proven or disproven: the Trinity, the Rapture, a fiery Hell, an immortal soul, the name of God, the Creation, and on, and on.
What people like O'Donnell and DebraJMSmith need to realize is that even if Mitt Romney is the most devout of Mormons, and believes Church doctrine with all his soul, he cannot establish a Mormon theocracy in this country. One, he couldn't get it past Congress. Two, he couldn't get it past the Supreme Court. And, three, he couldn't get it past the people. During the 1960 election, folks were making the same claim about Kennedy that they are making about Romney today. They wondered if Kennedy would have greater allegiance to the Pope than to the United States and the Constitution. Kennedy did not try to establish a Catholic theocracy, nor will Romney try to establish a Mormon theocracy.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
2 Quick Points MikeB
December 8, 2007 - 13:28 ET by exLib1 - The Creation, according to modern science and the teacher's union has already been "proven" false.
You are not allowed to even suggest that Creationism, belief in the Creation as a possibility, be taught in school. If you do, you are label a nut-case.
2 - Romney correctly pointed out that people like O'Donnel, and Barry Lynn, are people who hide behind their own "religiosity" but really act like Athiests and try to promote a secular religion.
Abortion is treated like a sacrament to these liberals.
A jack Mormon
December 8, 2007 - 20:30 ET by bbbossI am from Utah and decended from some of the very early LDS church members...one of my great X 3, grandpa's was in the room in 1830 when the LDS church was organized. I am not very active (the modern definition of a jack Mormon), but I still consider myself a Mormon and would never leave the church. Joseph Smith was an abolishnist, Brigham was not...the first company coming west in 1847 had a freed blackman and a member of the church. The Mormons came west because they were tired of being raped and murdered for what they believed (one ancestor of mine was murdered for target practice). The fact that Mitt felt he had to give this speech in 2007, shows exactly how much further we need to go to distance ourselves from blatent bigotry. This O'Donnell is an outright bigot, no better than a Klansman....disgusting...but, note...where does the prejudices come from? Yep, the left....try googling Cindy Sheehan and David Duke on the same search line, interesting reading of pure racial hatred from both. By the way, the "mark of Cain" is not in the BofM...it is one of those, what I call, Mormon mythologies...they creep up on occasion; this one came from Brigham..I believe he was wrong. He may have been a prophet, but he was still a man.
From a website created by current black Mormons...
Joseph Smith was a great advocate for the rights of black people in the 1840s. He was one of the first white men to call for the end to black slavery, and he called for the education and granting of equal rights of black people in America, back in 1843. Some historians believe his pro-black teachings influenced Abraham Lincoln, who lived not far from Joseph Smith in the 1840s.
You gotta love these bigoted liars on the left.......no shame whatsoever...this O 'Donnell pig will never take back the lie about Joseph and black Americans.
It was the Churchs stance
December 10, 2007 - 17:09 ET by Airforce_5_OIt was the Churchs stance on slavery that cause part of the problems in Missouri. Because they were treated as equals to own property and given education lead to resentment of the Church there. This along with other problems lead to the Extermination order by Gov. Boggs and their fleeing to Illinois.
According to Helen Thomas and Professor Truth I am the Most Dangerous and Psychotic Individual on the Net. Airforce_5_O
Poligamy was not outlawed
December 10, 2007 - 16:57 ET by Airforce_5_OPoligamy was not outlawed in the US until the 1890's so Mormons were not brecking the law at the time the practice was started. Once it was outlawed they stopped. Any person who practices it today and claims to be LDS is a liar.
According to Helen Thomas and Professor Truth I am the Most Dangerous and Psychotic Individual on the Net. Airforce_5_O
I have no idea who the hell
December 8, 2007 - 13:48 ET by mostlymoderateI have no idea who the hell this guy is, but he makes me want to vote for Romney instead of Thompson now. I have a thing for the underdogs; seems like people have already made their mind up about Romney just because he is of the Mormon faith.
I guess it is OK to say, "stay away from Romney because he is a Mormon." However, it is WRONG to say, "stay away from Obama because he is a negro with the middle-name Hussein".
Mind Boggling Display
December 8, 2007 - 14:01 ET by stratmanThe abominable spectacle that O'Donnell spewed was pure, unadultered hatred. Even the ever shrill Eleanor Clift backed away from O'Donnell in her comments. Despite Buchanon's corrective statement about Non-Mormons bringing slavery to this country, O'Donnell continued to rail at Mormons as the purveyors of slavery. Hey O'D, didja forget about Thomas Jefferson and George Washington?
Larry O'Donnell, the Senator Jim Web of journalists.
For the good of the Union and yourself, please get back on your meds.
Killing them with kindness isn't working. Time to get scrappy with the Donkeys.
not true
December 8, 2007 - 14:06 ET by brandonhKudos to those who go beyond some outsider's self-serving tirade to know what a religion really teaches. It's a shame when people get camera time and go on a rant -- on any subject -- with untrue statements.
There were blacks among the earliest members of the church. Is the church predominantly white? Yes, in the United States and probably worldwide. But go to Brazil, go to South Africa (Africa in general). You'll likely find the majority of members are black, and have been members prior to 1978.
Not that he and his gang will care to know how he was flat wrong, nor how things really played out in 1978.
Democrats always go the easy route. In this case, it's easier to make a false statement against someone's religion, whom you don't want people to vote for, and let the media decide if they want to correct him or set the record straight....which they'll have little to no interest in doing.
O'Donnell a little information and allot of bigotry
December 8, 2007 - 14:14 ET by Lame CherryI saw this rant last night and watched Pat Buchanan bitch slap O'Donnell down.
As I posted here before, I know Mormons, loved a Mormon girl and have been screwed over and lied to by Mormons to know enough they got lots of problems.........that is experience talking.
O'Donnell though crosses the line in calling Mormons crazy for their beliefs. The problem is Mormonism in it's Rites is Masonic. These are the old rites out of Babylon. The Catholic Universal church took on many of the same sexual and sun god rites too in order to appeal to the masses. NONE of that though reflects on the common believer who is doing the best they can.
Both Mormon and Vatican bases are Biblical in what O'Donnell is screaming about in that the Bible states clearly in Ezekiel, Isaiah etc.... in the old prophets and all through the New Testament that Jesus will indeed return, Jesus will indeed set up a one rule Government of God out of Jerusalem which He will rule from 1000 years when satan is imprisoned so the Israelite nations (America is one of them being of Joseph as we are one of the predicted colonizing peoples of Joseph "a vine which runneth over the wall") to finally be the Spiritual people teaching the rest of the world about God's Salvation as a priestly nation.
That is all in the Bible, King James Version as well as Geneva which are thee with the Amplified, thee translations from the original Hebrew and Greek.
O'Donnell if he knew the Bible would not be attacking the Mormons. I have no idea if Missouri is going to be a ruling point in Jesus Kingdom of God on earth as I never asked God and the Bible never says. In no way is this defending Mormonism as it is a cult not to be a part of, but in the same reality there are going to have to be national capitals in all remaining nations for the effective Moses governance which his father in law, Jethro suggested for the 13 Tribes.
In all of this only one thing matters, one must believe that Jesus is thee Son of God in being thee Word of God in creating all, for His duty in creating people is as a Husband to the Spiritual Body in redeeming it from death to eternal Life. Accepting that redemption which is a gift only from God is what matters. Jesus said it much simpler, "he that believeth and is baptised (washed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit, shall be saved".
If Mr. O'Donnell does read this, I would welcome an exchange providing he finds a real Bible and invests the time in reading it.
Everyone knows Mormonism has huge problems. Francis Parkman wrote of it in his histories and Americans simply pitied these poor deluded people...........Buffalo Bill wrote of them in their literal shooting war with the United States government.......and all know the sects of multiple wives and other human weakness ideas to the Masonic rites.
Mr. O'Donnell though needs to stop this hatred as he has something inside him gearing this irrational behavior. He has no problem with Hillary being a lesbian religion which is indeed rooted in the same Babylon rites of Ashteroth and the Sodomite Cults of worship.
They too under Nimrod had bastardized teachings of rebirth and rule.........but Mr. O'Donnell does not have any rants about Hillary and her body of perverse religion.
agtG.
*HIC IACET ARTORIVS REX QVONDAM REXQVE FVTVRVS
ummm, hello? when will a
December 8, 2007 - 14:55 ET by MrSnugglesummm, hello? when will a leftwing wackjob go on a rant about how mohammed was a pedophilic, war mongering, beheader of innocents and apostates?
oh and is that the geico guy again?
While I agree that
December 8, 2007 - 15:01 ET by wiwfWhile I agree that mormonism has some interesting origins, and south park does a good satire of it all, I can't find myself to hate mormons (except Harry Reid). They're still Christians (unlike those damn Westboro baptists and Harry Reid!), and they work hard and smile and are really very nice (except Harry Reid). What's not to hate about them besides outdated hatred and bigotry that doesn't exist in mormon mainstream religion anymore, and Harry Reid?
The Rocky Mountain Collegian: Illustrating Idiocy
Wiwf, just a S.W.A.G. here,
December 8, 2007 - 15:44 ET by MikeBWiwf, just a S.W.A.G. here, but I get the feeling you don't care for Harry Reid. :->
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
Aww, Mike, what gave it
December 8, 2007 - 22:46 ET by wiwfAww, Mike, what gave it away? ;)
The Rocky Mountain Collegian: Illustrating Idiocy
Who the hell is this O'Donnell guy??!!!
December 8, 2007 - 15:08 ET by c5thenIs he just anti Mormon or is he yet another athiest who is afraid of all religion? The Mormon religion is alot better than Islam as far as "crazy ideas" and is much closer to Christianity than Buddism or Hinduism.
The day that "politician" became a career choice is the day we started losing the Republic. Let's get it back! Alan Keyes '08. RenewAmerica.us
I hear that O’Donnell is
December 8, 2007 - 15:11 ET by pocomocoI hear that O’Donnell is on the Bill Moyers pill.
Lawrence O'Donnell
December 8, 2007 - 17:06 ET by david999He was married to Kathryn Harrold - actress (now divorced)
http://www.moviemark...
I can see why he is a loon after getting divorced by her
Poor Lawrence...he just
December 8, 2007 - 17:51 ET by bigtimerPoor Lawrence...he just gets steadily nuttier and nuttier each time I hear his angry diatribes...I feel people like him are the Conservatives best friends.
So please Lawrence keep up the BS....attempting to use race isn't going to work here either in Romney's case...but the leftists anger and hate have to try every angle.
Lord, I would be so unhappy all the time if I lived in the world these people do.
Trained seal
December 8, 2007 - 17:54 ET by celatorLook, Larry is just another trained seal trying his best to please his handler.
Balance the ball on your nose, Larry. That's a good seal! Honk! Honk!
Here's your fish.
O'Donnell is a fanatic...
December 8, 2007 - 18:27 ET by Parker1227...who called for the secession of the blue states in a peak of infantile hate/frustration on the McLaughlin Group post 2004 election.
Parker, you say that like
December 9, 2007 - 15:03 ET by MikeBParker, you say that like it's a bad thing. Just think about it: the blue states secede. They can then tax themselves into penury while funding all of their Marxist redistributionist programs, while the rest of the country can go about their business of reforming schools so they teach subjects like real math, english, history, and economics instead of fuzzy feel-good self-esteem enhancing crap. The red states can also enact sensible gun control laws like "If you use a firearm in the commission of a felony, we'll stand you in front of a wall and shoot you." Yup, I think that the commie, excuse me, blue states seceding might not be a bad idea.
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
Larry and Keef would make a
December 8, 2007 - 19:57 ET by charlietexasLarry and Keef would make a great couple. they are both nuts. they can feed off eachother.
O'Donnell.... embarrassing
December 9, 2007 - 02:01 ET by maggieqpublicO'Donnell.... embarrassing loss of composure for a media professional. I don't think his outburst was staged.
He felt slavery was not
December 9, 2007 - 05:05 ET by KeithHe felt slavery was not right and saw the need to abolish slavery to preserve the nation. But he also realized the need to save the economy of the South." He "refused to take the extreme abolitionist point."
Good to know the ECONOMY was okay while black people were being killed, whipped, humiliated, torn from their families and shackled like dogs. Thanks Joe Smith.
That being "laughed at", I've met O'Donnell and he's a jerk although he wasn't a jerk to me. But as an adult male Mitt Romney was a leader in an organization that said BLACK PEOPLE COULD NOT GET TO HEAVEN. He should have to answer for that, no "youthful indiscretion" there! If you take away his maniacal demeanor, every single thing that O'Donnell said about this CULT is TRUE and the paltry few points of "factual" disagreement you raised SHOWS THAT. "Gradualist" is another word for A RACIST that is OKAY with blacks being kept like ANIMALS as long as the economy is GOOD!
If he served GOD rather than Satan his "religion/CULT" would have told him to care more about friggin' PEOPLE than a DOLLAR! But as anyone who can read a Bible knows, Mormonism is a cult that has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus Christ. Instead it teaches it's followers to commit BLASPHEMY by taking junk written by Joe Smith ABOVE the Bible. It ALSO teaches it's misguided followers to even "SIN LIKE SATAN" who also believed that he could "ascend his throne above the stars of God", in Mormonism it teaches these poor skulls full of mush that they can actually BE GOD'S. Now unless I miss my bet ( which I never do), that would effectively ELIMINATE any argument that these people are "Christian". Seeing as how it would violate the "Shema" or great COMMAND otherwise known as the foundation of Judeo-Christian ethic.
Deuteronomy 6:4
4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Which effectively eliminates the "trinity" nonsense of misguided Christians and in a "twofer", has the added benefit of letting Mitt Romney know that his dumb behind WILL NEVER BE GOD.
Exit question: If a "fool" according to Psalm 14:1, is one who has "said in his heart there is no God" what would the bible say about some doofus who thinks he can actually BE GOD?
}}---> Romney must explain
December 9, 2007 - 09:40 ET by Cool ArrowBig difference here. 1978 vs 1865? Anybody here want to tell me what their belief on Blacks was in 1978?
When I was 23, I discovered a teaching of my religion I considered sinister. The realization came during a service within that religion. I rejected said religion as a result and was not quiet about my objections to it.
Parents and some siblings boycotted my wedding as a result of my newfound faith.
I say that to illustrate I had a duty to turn my back on that which was evil and extant in that church in my lifetime.
Mr. Romney is now faced with responding in a few ways:
All of these answers give rise to their own peculiar sets of followups.
And Romney must give his own personal explanation for this change of prophecy that occurred during his adult years.
And BTW, We're all descendents of Cain. Remember Noah? The bloodline got seriously bottlenecked at the flood.
"We're all descendants of
December 9, 2007 - 15:14 ET by MikeB"We're all descendants of Cain." Really? Got any proof of that? Are you assuming that Cain and Abel were the only two children of Adam and Eve? In that case, the human race died after that second generation. Or, perhaps you have a geneology which traces Noah through Cain? In my Bible it says that Adam became father to sons and daughters. In which case, Cain's bloodline died out and Noah descended through Seth (in Luke's gospel).
"A communist is someone who reads Marx. An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx." Ronald Reagan
You're right Mike B
December 10, 2007 - 02:28 ET by Cool ArrowI stand corrected on that point.
Fortuitous indeed, as there were more pressing aspects to my post you were unable to refute.
So now that I've admitted being wrong about Cain, how 'bout you take a couple of swings at the really important stuff?
I ♣ My Seal
Don't worry Cool, I'll SHOW
December 10, 2007 - 05:07 ET by KeithDon't worry Cool, I'll SHOW 'im! There are none so blind as those who will not see. Since he tried to pick your post apart I can only assume that he is trying to help Romney so here goes.
First up? WHy some choice QUOTES from Mitts SPIRITUAL LEADER AND "PROPHET". See much is already known about Mormonism by "those who know". It's only these who can't read their OWN bible that are fooled by Mitt and his ilk. http://www.christian... NOTE this is excerpted and quoted with appropriate footnotes from Christiandefense.org
“But let them apostatize, and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) cannot escape their racist past. For nearly 150 years, the Mormon Church had taught that ALL blacks were cursed. Hence, a black Mormon male could not hold the highly regarded LDS Priesthood1 because of his dark skin. And since he could not hold this Priesthood, he could not enter the Mormon Temple. This doctrine in no way, shape, or form can be substantiated in Scripture. Only in the LDS scriptures does this racist doctrine exist.
Cursed in Pre-existence
But, before we read what LDS leaders have taught concerning the "cursed line," we will need to go back and discover as to why dark skinned people are cursed. Then we will have a better understanding of Mormon thought on this issue. Mormons teach that when the "council of the Gods" were planning how to redeemed mankind Jesus desired to save man by giving them their free choice, however Lucifer objected and wanted to force men to serve God.
Therefore, the Gods rejected Lucifer's plan, which resulted in a war between the good spirit children, and the spirit children that sided with Lucifer (a third of them). But there was a group of spirits that were less valiant in this war. Hence, God (the head God) was very displeased with them so He turned their skin black. Tenth President Joseph Fielding Smith explains:
There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there [pre-existence] received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less. . . . There were no neutrals in the war in Heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 65-66; emphasis added).
LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie furthers this teaching:
Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions impose on them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God, and his murder of Able being a black skin. . . . Noah's son married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain, thus preserving the negro lineage through the flood. . . . the negro are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concern. . . . " (Mormon Doctrine, 527-28; 1966 orig. ed., changed in the current ed.; emphasis added).
Now, we can have more of a clearer perspective as to why the LDS would teach such blatant racism that Scripture never condones. Now we will read what LDS General Authorities had taught concerning the, what they termed, "cursed lineage," that is, dark skinned people (particularly Negroes).
LDS Presidents/Prophets
Joseph Smith first president, prophet, and founder of the Mormon Church:
Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 270; History of the Church, 5: 218; emphasis added).
"Thursday, 8--Held Mayor's court and tried two negroes for attempting to marry two white women: fined one $25, and the other $5" (ibid., 6: 210).
and the rebellious niggers in the slave states. . . " (Millennial Star, 22:602; emphasis added).
When Mormon Historians reprinted this in the History of the Church, they change it to read:
"and the rebellious negroes in the slave states. . . " (History of the Church, 6:158; emphasis added).
Brigham Young second President and Prophet:
You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another cursed is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree (Journal of Discourses, 7:290; emphasis added)
Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be (ibid., 10:110; emphasis added)
Brigham Young stated that his sermons (as cited above) are Scripture:
I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of man, that they may not call Scripture (ibid., 13:95).
John Taylor, third President and Prophet.
after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God. . . . (ibid., 23:304; emphasis added).
That the "curse lineage" (dark skin) is Satan's representation on earth, was taught clearly by the third President and Prophet of the Mormon Church, John Taylor. Taylor goes on to teach:
When he [Satan] destroyed the inhabitants of the antediluvian worlds, he suffered a descendant of Cain to come through the flood in order that he might be properly represented upon the earth (ibid., 23:336; emphasis added).
Wilford Woodruff, who became the fourth President and Prophet of the LDS Church:
What was that mark? It was a mark of blackness. That mark rested upon Cain, and descended upon his posterity from that time until the present. To day there are millions of the descendants of Cain, through the lineage of Ham, in the world, and that mark of darkness still rest upon them (Millennial Star, 51:339; emphasis added).
Joseph Fielding Smith, tenth President and Prophet.
In 1963, Look magazine interviewed, at that time, the leader of the LDS Church; Joseph Fielding Smith. Concerning negroes, Smith stated:
I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. 'Darkies' are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church (Look magazine, October 22, 1963, 79; emphasis added).
Smith also taught that "Negroes" were inferior to other races:
Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was place upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning… we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our Negro brethren, for they are our brethren--children of God---notwithstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness (The Way to Perfection, 101-02; emphasis added).
And, as previously quoted, Smith stated that
There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages... The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 66; emphasis added).
LDS General Authorities
Orson Pratt, LDS Apostle:
Among the Saints [Mormons] is the most likely place for these [pre-existent] spirits to take their tabernacles, through a just and righteous parentage [white parentage]. They are sent to that people that are the most righteous of any other people upon the earth. . . . The Lord has not kept them in store for five or six thousand years past, and kept them waiting for their bodies all this time to send them among the Hottentots, the African negroes, the idolatrous Hindoos, or any other of the fallen nations of the earth. They are not kept in reserve in order to come forth to receive such a degraded parentage [African negroes] upon the earth; no, the Lord is not such a being (Journal of Discourses, 1:63; emphasis added)
Mark E. Peterson, LDS Apostle:
President Woodruff added, 'The Lord said, 'I will not kill Cain, but I will put a mark upon him, and that mark will be seen upon every face of every Negro, upon the face of the earth. And it is the decree of God that [the] mark should remain upon the seed of Cain, until the seed of Able shall be redeemed, and Cain shall not receive the Priesthood until the time of that redemption. Any man having one drop of the blood of Cain in him cannot receive the Priesthood' (Race Problems-- As They Affect the Church, address given by Mark E. Peterson at BYU; emphasis added)
In the same address, Peterson goes on to say:
Who placed the Negroes originally in darkest Africa? Was it some man or was it God?. . . The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence. At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the negroes we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that He placed a dark skin upon them as a curse--as a punishment and as a sign to all others. He forbade intermarriage with them under threat of extension of the curse. . . . And He certainly segregated the descendants of Cain when He cursed the Negro as to the Priesthood, and drew an absolute line. Think of the Negro, cursed as to the Priesthood. Are we prejudiced against him? Unjustly, sometimes we are accursed of having such a prejudice. . . .
This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in the lineage of Cain with black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa--if that negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, they may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. . . .
If I were to marry a Negro woman and have children by her, my children would be cursed as to the Priesthood. Do I want my children cursed as to the Priesthood? If there is one drop of negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse. . . . There are 50 million Negroes in the United States. If they were to achieve complete absorption with the white race, think what that would do. With 50 million Negroes inter-married with us, where would the priesthood be? Who could hold it, in all America? Think what that would do to the work of the Church! . . . Now we are generous with the Negro.
We are willing that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. I would be willing that that they have all the advantages as they can get out of life in the world. But let them enjoy these among themselves. I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change it?" (ibid.; emphasis added)
LDS Apostle George A. Smith:
There is not a man, from the President of the United States to the Editors of their sanctorums, clear down to the low-bred letter-writers in this Territory, but would rob the coppers from a dead nigger's eyes, if they had a good opportunity (Journal of Discourses, 5:110; emphasis added).
LDS Apostle and prolific writer Bruce R. McConkie:
Negroes in this life are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty… The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them. Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned. . . . (Mormon Doctrine, 477, 527-28; 1966 orig. ed., changed in the current).
Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the negroes, and those spirits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born through that lineage (ibid.,109; 1966 org. ed., changed in the current ed.; emphasis added).
Cain, Ham, and the whole negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry (ibid., 114; current ed.; emphasis added)
Is this Christian? Did Jesus or the Apostles teach prejudice on the basis of skin color? These racist teachings, which were clearly taught by the leaders of the Mormon Church, echo those of the Skinhead, K.K.K. and other destructive groups. This, is not Christianity:
Then Peter open his mouth, and said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34; emphasis added)
God hath showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean (ibid., 10:28)
Let us conclude by examining the LDS scriptures, which indicates plainly that dark skin was a sign of Gods curse:
Book of Mormon
1 Nephi 11:13 (Mary) "she was exceedingly fair and white."
1 Nephi 12:23 (prophecy of the Lamanites) " became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations."
1 Nephi 13:15 (Gentiles) "they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people [Nephites] before they were slain."
2 Nephi 5:21 "a sore cursing . . . as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."
2 Nephi 30:6 (prophecy to the Lamanites if they repented) "scales of darkness shall begin to fall. . . . they shall be a white and delightsome people" ("white and delightsome" was changed to "pure and delightsome" in 1981).
Jacob 3:5 (Lamanites cursed) "whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins. . . ."
Jacob 3:8-9 "their skins will be whiter than yours... revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins. . . ."
Alma 3:6 "And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion."
Alma 3:9 "whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed."
Alma 3:14 (Lamanites cursed) "set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed. . . ."
Alma 23:18 "[Lamanites] did open a correspondence with them [Nephites] and the curse of God did no more follow them."
3 Nephi 2:14-16 "Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites and . . . became exceedingly fair. . . . "
3 Nephi 19:25, 30 (Disciples) "they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness. . . . nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof… and behold they were white, even as Jesus."
Mormon 5:15 (prophecy about the Lamanites) "for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us. . . ."
Pearl of Great Price
Moses 7:8 "a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan. . . ."
Moses 7:12 "Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were [i.e., except] the people of Canaan, to repent. . . ."
Moses 7:22 ".for the seed of Cain were black and had not place among them."
Abraham 1:21 " king of Egypt [Pharaoh] was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth."
Abraham 1:27 "Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood. . . ." (emphasis added to above citations).
The truth is: Mormonism doses not represent Jesus Christ or His Church. The LDS teachings of the "Negro" are not consistent with, as well as, contradict Scripture.
In 1978, the LDS god changes his Mind
Because of this racist teaching, the LDS Church was under enormous political pressure. Hence, June 8 1978, LDS President, Spencer W. Kimball, after spending many hours in the "Upper Room" of the LDS Temple, claimed that God had removed the curse. All worthy black men could now receive the Priesthood.
This, was a major doctrinal change. Mormons will usually argue: "But it was said that eventually the curse would be removed." However, this assertion cannot be found before 1978. Therefore, we will again, appeal to the official teachings of the LDS General Authorities.
What the LDS General Authorities did teach was that the curse would not be removed in this life. LDS Prophet Brigham Young explains, under, so-called, divine revelation:2
How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favorable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion (Journal of Discourses, 7:290-91; emphasis added).
Young was clear: "they [blacks] never can hold the Priesthood . . . until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof." The time when the descendants of Adam (white men) are redeemed is at the resurrection, not in this life. According to Mormonism that has not happen yet. Keep in mind, Young declared:
I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of man, that they may not call Scripture (ibid., 13:95).
LDS Apostle Mark E. Peterson agrees:
And it is the decree of God that [the] mark should remain upon the seed of Cain, until the seed of Able shall be redeemed, and Cain shall not receive the Priesthood until the time of that redemption (Race Problems-- As They Affect the Church, address by Mark E. Peterson at BYU; emphasis added; see above).
LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie comments as to the duration of the curse:
Negroes in this life are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty… The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them…. (Mormon Doctrine, 477, 527-28; 1966 org. ed., changed in the current; see above).
As observed, and with most non-Christian cults, the god of Mormonism is a changing god. It changes its mind. The God of the Bible does not change:
"For I am the LORD, I change not. . . ." (Mal. 3:6).
Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall parish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou are the same, and thy years shall have no end (Ps. 102:25-27).
Even the Book of Mormon agrees with this point:
Now, the decrees of God are unalterable. . . . (Alma 41:8).3
Mormonism teaches: "The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them. Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned. . . . " (McConkie, see above).
In the end, Mormons reject the words of the Lord Jesus Christ: Preach the Gospel to all nations (cf. Matt. 28:19-20), thus "all nations" certainly includes Africa.
Notes
1, In the Mormon religion there are two priesthoods: Aaronic and the Melchizedek. The Aaronic is the lesser of the two. To have eternal life (i.e., exaltation to Godhood) the "worthy" (and married) Mormon male must be ordained to this higher Priesthood (Melchizedek). This Priesthood is excluded from all females. Thus for nearly 150 years, the Mormon Church taught that dark skinned people (partially Africans) could not gain true salvation, eternal life (i.e., Godhood in the highest heaven: the celestial kingdom).
2, Just as Isaiah, Ezekiel, Peter, and Paul were actual prophets and apostles, in LDS theology the titles, "Prophet" and "Apostle" are literal. Thus, Mormons say that when they are giving sermons they are in fact, speaking for God.
3, Concerning the "decrees" of God, LDS Apostle Mark E. Peterson stated: "And it is the decree of God that [the] mark should remain upon the seed of Cain, until the seed of Able shall be redeemed, and Cain shall not receive the Priesthood until the time of that redemption" (Race Problems-- As They Affect the Church, address by Mark E. Peterson at BYU; emphasis added; see above).
Copyright:©2003 Department of Christian Defense, all rights reserved
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Mitt Romney was a LEADER in this filthy cult that has the unmitigated GALL to call itself a "church" and he should be kicked out of the party unless he "repudiates" the views of his church, much less running for president of ANYTHING.
Look everybody, a religious
December 10, 2007 - 17:19 ET by Airforce_5_OLook everybody, a religious bigot using a bigoted site. Just amazing!!!!!!
According to Helen Thomas and Professor Truth I am the Most Dangerous and Psychotic Individual on the Net. Airforce_5_O
Kicked out really?
December 10, 2007 - 17:28 ET by MightyMouthShould the conservative Agnostics and Athiests be expelled from Kieth's party as well?
Why so angry Kieth? You sound bitter about something.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
MM
December 10, 2007 - 17:33 ET by Airforce_5_OThis guy has been a hate monger from day one. Just a plan out and out bigot.
According to Helen Thomas and Professor Truth I am the Most Dangerous and Psychotic Individual on the Net. Airforce_5_O
Yeah...
December 10, 2007 - 17:40 ET by MightyMouthI've noticed that Hatemongers and Bigots also have ZERO sense of humor!
It's almost as if he as version of the bible that says "go forth and spread my word using hatemongering and bigotry".
A Fake as far as I have seen.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Racism and Mormonism
December 10, 2007 - 14:28 ET by Conservative VoiceLet me first put the priesthood issue to bed. Is the Bible considered a racist book because only a few people could have the Priesthood? How about those religions who only allow men to have the priesthood, are they sexist?
Second, the Romneys have a strong record with treating Blacks and minorities fairly and equally. So sick of people who have their prejudice against Mormons, that they can't view Romney fairly. There are plenty of things to challenge Romney on, his religion is not one of them.
I don't see what's so wrong
December 10, 2007 - 14:38 ET by LeonI don't see what's so wrong about calling Mormonism ridiculous.
Mormons wear magic underwear.
I repeat, magic underwear.
That is all.
funny leon, he doesn't
December 10, 2007 - 14:59 ET by Conservative Voicefunny leon, he doesn't understand religious symbolism, only liberal symbolism.
How does the fact that it's
December 10, 2007 - 15:18 ET by LeonHow does the fact that it's symbolic make it any less ridiculous?
Seriously, it's the silliest religious practice I've ever seen.
I say the samething about
December 10, 2007 - 17:43 ET by Conservative VoiceI say the samething about liberal symbolism....especially when its symbolism over substance...go figure.
Seriously, Socialism / Global Warming / with abortion as the sacrament is the silliest religion practiced I have ever seen.
There is no such thing as
December 10, 2007 - 15:31 ET by tracheostomyThere is no such thing as symbolism for it's own sake. Symbols are there to point to something believed to be true.
You just downplayed the emblems of your own faith, CV.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Really trach? So symbols
December 10, 2007 - 17:47 ET by Conservative VoiceReally trach? So symbols point to something believed to be true? I never knew that! /sarc.
And I'm not downplaying anything, I just prefer not to go into it with people like you or Leon.
You prefer not to go into
December 11, 2007 - 06:23 ET by tracheostomyYou prefer not to go into it with me, but you absolutely have to have the last word all the same.
Why do you defend yourself with nothing but empty hit and run statements that you weren't previously able to do with pure reason?
Because you are unable to reason. You don't like to think about the issue. It hurts you and your pride. Cognitive dissonance is putting in overtime at CV's keyboard. Nevertheless, you are obligated to defend it all the same.
Keep running, CV. You're showing your loyalty to the prophet in spades now.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
You cannot defend your
December 11, 2007 - 06:19 ET by tracheostomyYou cannot defend your religious symbolism to Leon or myself from a standpoint of vague; empty mysticism. Either defend it with courage or let him continue to think the symbols are ridiculous.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07