Update | 10:25 AM -- Zogby says Penn should know better . . . Clinton campaign #1 user of Zogby results. See entire Zogby response at foot.
Presaging the kind of press control a President Hillary Clinton might try to impose, a member of her inner circle scolded Joe Scarborough today for having the audacity to mention a poll with results unfavorable to Clinton.
Yesterday, Zogby International released a new poll indicating that in a general election head-to-head match-up, Hillary Clinton would lose to all of the leading Republican contenders by a 3-5% margin. Even worse from the perspective of Clinton heading into the Dem primaries, the same poll shows Barack Obama beating each of the Republicans by 5-7%.
Chief Clinton strategist Mark Penn was a guest on "Morning Joe" during today's 7:30 ET half-hour. Nothing could be more natural than for Scarborough to raise these newsworthy results. But Penn wasn't pleased.
View video here.
JOE SCARBOROUGH: Hillary Clinton, we've all said it here, and a lot of people have said, she's really run a flawless campaign. She got into some trouble two, three weeks ago and now suddenly we have polls coming out like the Zogby poll that you saw that everybody's talking about this morning that shows that she's losing to all of her Republican contenders, John McCain beating her 42-38%, Clinton losing to Giuli --
Penn could be heard laughing off-camera, and Joe picked up on it.
SCARBOROUGH: And by the way, if I were you, I'd be laughing too. These polls, schmolls. Romney 43-40%. My favorite is Huckabee beating her by five points. What's going on here?MARK PENN: That was Zogby's first interactive, on-line poll ever. The Gallup poll that came out also yesterday showed Senator Clinton five points ahead of Giuliani and double digits ahead of some of the other possible Republican nominees, and showed that if Barack Obama were the nominee it would be dead even. That's a real poll. that's got 50 years of history. This is the first time Zogby has done something online. It's a meaningless poll, and really, frankly, shouldn't even be on your show.
Penn's comment was fundamentally misleading. While this might have been Zogby's first use in this election cycle of an online survey of the presidential head-to-head matchup, the firm has been successfully conducting online polls for some time. For example, in 2006, according to Zogby, its online polling division, Zogby Interactive:
Correctly identified the winners in 18 of 19 Senate races. And the only race that Zogby did not pick correctly – the McCaskill/Talent race in Missouri – was still well within the margin of error. Zogby Interactive had Talent winning re–election by a single percentage point, instead of losing by 2%.
As per the notes at the foot of yesterday's Zogby release, the margin of error in the current presidential poll is only 1%. This compares to the 3.1% margin of error in the July head-to-head matchup, conducted by phone, presumably reflecting the much greater number of participants in the online poll, 9-150, versus 1,012 in the earlier phone survey. In other words, if anything Zogby is saying that the current poll should be more accurate than its previous one.
Note also that the Gallup poll was conducted November 11-14. The more recent Zogby poll, conducted November 21-26, may have detected some subsequent erosion in support for Clinton.
Sure, it's the job of campaign aides to talk up the positive and discount the negative. But for those concerned with press freedom, there was something chilling about hearing a key Hillary insider tell a network host that a poll the Clinton camp didn't like "shouldn't be on your show."
Update | 10:25 AM. I contacted the Zogby firm seeking a reply to Penn's comments. Here is the response from Zogby Director of Communications Fritz Wenzel [emphasis added]:
Mark Penn is one of the best in the polling business, which is why he works for such high-level clients as Hillary Clinton. But he should know better than almost anyone that Zogby has long been doing online polls, and doing it with as much accuracy and success as anyone in the business. How should he know this? Because no political campaign requests copies of our polling results more often than Mark Penn's office.
As Newsbusters mentions, Zogby International's online polling division has nearly a decade of experience and is a leader in identifying a reliable and accurate methodology that matches the changes we see in how our society communicates. The vast majority of likely voters today uses the Internet to express their opinions. We are there to accurately capture those opinions.
Note: Zogby's Wenzel has posted an item about the incident at the firm's site:
Mark Penn: Buckling Under the Pressure of an Unfavorable Poll
—Mark Finkelstein is a NewsBusters contributing editor and host of Right Angle. Contact him at mark@gunhill.net.





















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Not reported
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 09:22 ET by JDWZ- The Mrs Clinton camp never reported being upset about;
It's far from a meaningless poll.
JDW
Sen Clinton: Distinguished Founder of Media Matters
I've been a respondant to
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 09:34 ET by BruzillaI've been a respondant to Zogbi Interactive polls for a couple of years now. Every poll starts with your party affiliation, how likely you are to vote, who you voted for in the last election, and who you're liking in the next election. So I know someone over there's been tracking this data for a while.
Same Here
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 13:05 ET by Del DolemonteThey also ask all sorts of non-political questions, like how big the town and city you live in are, and on some of the polls they even throw in some pretty wild questions-as I recall one of the questions on one of the ZOg Interactive polls was who was the better band, the Beatles or the Rolling Stones?
Zeig Heil!
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 09:37 ET by mattmStrange, I don't remember W's people, or any other republican, trying to tell the press what to do. Looks like Hitlery's little flock of Goebbelses are out in force.
This proves that the Dems use polling to influence opinion, not gauge it.
Meanigless poll
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 09:40 ET by iveseenitallIt's a meaningless poll, Joe. How dare you! Wait until Chairwoman Hillary is President. You'll be imprisoned for bringing something like that up.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
Kinda shows you how wildly
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 09:56 ET by Dan The Man 2Kinda shows you how wildly these polls differ. And there is only one poll that counts.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Of course I agree that the
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 10:00 ET by JimboOf course I agree that the only poll that counts is the one on election day. I think the point here is that this is yet another (overt) attempt by the Clinton Machine to control the media. I can only wonder what kind of threats went on behend the scenes after this network dared show a potential crack in the Queen's armor.
Leon says "By the way, I'm not afraid of fat people, I'm repulsed"
Truth Monger Says - "Both are religions [Christianity & Islam], yes - with the same percentage of terrorists."
Flawless??
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 10:09 ET by NoMoreClintons"we've all said it here, and a lot of people have said, she's really run a flawless campaign."
Really, Joe? Flawless? According to whom? Haven't you heard about the myriad of questionable fund-raising (should-be) scandals this woman is up to her eyeballs in? Does Mr. Hsu's name ring a bell? Heard about those Chinese dishwashers yet? Does Alonzo Cantu ring a bell? If not you should look his name up. More sleaze from the Clintons. Have you heard about the planted questions from "average" citizens? What about her famous flip-flop on the illegals getting driver's licenses? Or maybe you didn't hear about the not so subtle threats made to Wolf Blitzer by the Clinton police force to go easy on their girl. Guess what, it worked and he chickened out by not asking her any real questions. Do you really think that this all adds up to "flawless"? And I've even left out a few things, I'm sure.
Who are you trying to con here, anyway? Or were you just sucking up to Mark Penn like the rest of the liberally biased media?
Nobody who knows what's really going on thinks that she's run a flawless campaign - far from it. You might think you can influence the opinion of the hoi poloi with ridiculous remarks like that but it's not gonna happen in this day and age. Don't be such a wimp and do some real reporting, instead of just being a Clinton sycophant all of the time.
Showing her true colors...
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 10:11 ET by taterIf this guy said something to the effect that this is a meaningless poll and our campaign doesn't look into it this would be a non-issue. Telling Joe that this shouldn't be on his show...well let's just say Hil is taking a page out of Hugo Chavez's book.
Do you realize how much it costs to run for office? More than any honest man could afford. -Montgomery Burns
This extra long
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 10:12 ET by MidAmericaThis extra long presidential campaign, started because the dems couldn't wait to make GWB irrelevant, is going to end up hurting hillary. A short campaign would have been a referendum on the Bush administration but two years of getting to know the candidates makes it about them. Two years of hillary before the election gives the country time to think, do we really want these two back in our lives every day for another four years or do we want to move on to another direction.
Watch out Joe!
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 10:20 ET by c5thenYou are guilty of blasphemey when you point out flaws or inconsistencies about Hillary (her Majesty). They will go after your show and anchor position with the executive leadership of NBC.
With the onset and wide use of caller ID, the only people who respond to the "traditional" telephone polls are those that want to, same as the on-line polls. the poll with the most responders is going to be more accurate.
The day that "politician" became a career choice is the day we started losing the Republic. Let's get it back! Fred08.com
Hillary
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 10:41 ET by 10ksnookerThe truth challenged candidate, and it's beginning to show. She is neither as good a liar, not as intelligent, nor as talented a performer as BJ.
EXACTLY...
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 13:01 ET by danybhoyThis is what so many people don't understand. Bill is still the best pure politician on the left. You did leave out 1 or 2 things though,
Bill was at least likable on some levels. To me, Bill is like GW Bush, he would be fun to hang out with at BBQ, a ball game, or on the golf course. He seems like a guy who like to have a good time. Hillary, is NOT likable, she is more polorizing, & a total killjoy. Look, should Bill have been cheating on her over the years? Nope, but when you listen to Hillary go off on 1 of her many rants, can you blame him?
Hillary's negatives are too great for her to be elected to the Oval Office.
"Some of us are wise, some of us are otherwise" Mark Levin
Twice less than 50
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 18:19 ET by ThisnThatIf Bill was such a good polititian, then why didn't he win at least 50% of the vote twice in a row? Why was he impeached? Why is he so polarizing?
We are living in an era of revisionist history, I'm afraid. The MSM, in their efforts to re-elect Hillary, are forcing everyone to drink the coolaid. They're doing this by re-packaging a flawed product, and positioning the bad side against the wall of silence so no one can notice it.
___________________________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
I would tend to believe an
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 10:56 ET by FishFace222I would tend to believe an on-line poll where people actually go to a site and provide their opinions. The gallup poll was conducted through telephone interviews. In those cases, they can call areas that tend to vote left and eliminate areas that tend to vote right--obviously skewing the results.
Rasmussen tends to be more accurate than Zogby and Gallup from what I've seen.
skewed poll results
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 11:36 ET by Andanteby FishFace222
"I would tend to believe an on-line poll where people actually go to a site and provide their opinions..."
-------------------------------------------
Nah, the results would still be skewed towards the left. Most Republicans have real jobs. They are too busy working to respond to polls and they don't have the time to post opinions. My excuse for posting here....I'm a kept man ;-)
That's How Zogby's Online Poll Works
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 13:03 ET by Del DolemonteI was one of Zogby's online poll sample for a couple of years, and what they do is send you an e-mail whenever they're doing a new poll. It includes a hyperlink to their specific website for that poll, and it takes you betweem 10 and 15 minutes to complete.
In the past, Zogby has admitted doing telephone polls on certain days of the week in order to favor Democrats.
Clintons=shut down free speech
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 12:28 ET by celatorOne of the first mandates dictators employ when they achieve power is to immediately shut down free speech/press. Even a cursory historical review of dictatorships and fascist governments clearly illustrates this. Mzzz Hillary, who certainly is a socialist dictator at heart, understands that and will do all she can to eliminate the free flow of information from the marketplace of ideas. Mark Penn, one of her many well-paid attack dogs, now illustrates the concept for all to see. Note that he is not in the least embarrassed about his action.
Remember a few months ago when Mzz Hillary was overheard commenting to a colleague in the halls of Congress, "We've got to do something about this internet thing"? She's talking censorship of all citizen opinions she doesn't like.
Be on guard.
Actually
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 13:00 ET by Del DolemonteShe was saying the same thing in the 1990s, when she advocated a "gatekeeper function" for the internet.
"The Laugh of Doom"
Tue, 11/27/2007 - 12:54 ET by Chris Norman"Penn could be heard laughing off-camera, and Joe picked up on it."
Scarborough very well had better "pick up on it", for a laugh from Ms. Clinton or her campaign is "The Laugh of Doom"...