Ana Marie Cox: 'I Know Mitt Romney Is Not Himself Christian'

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UPDATE: Video here.

Ana Marie Cox: not just a snarky ex-blogger turned Time editor anymore -- now a theologian who has pronounced Mitt Romney not a Christian.

The former Wonkette is all over MSNBC today. Early today on "Morning Joe," Cox cattily swiped at Katie Couric, surmising that the CBS Evening News anchor was traveling to the Middle East because she needed rugs. She has since claimed to have intended no slight to Katie or Middle Easterners. Right. Screencap from MJ after the break.

This evening, Cox appeared on "Countdown" to discuss the Larry Craig matter with Olbermann. Talk turned to the way Mitt Romney (R-Mass.) has dealt with the situation. The Idaho senator had served as Romney's co-chairman in the Senate. Romney was quick to disassociate Craig from his campaign, and Tuesday referred to Craig's behavior as "disgusting

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ANA MARIE COX: [Romney] has inserted himself into this story several times. I think the smart political thing to do would have been to get rid of the guy from your campaign staff, maybe take the [Craig endorsement] video down, but why would you perpetuate the story, why would you involve yourself in this? It really just seems politically inept in my opinion.

KEITH OLBERMANN: Are we again missing something here? Is there some base that he's appealing to by being cruel to somebody's who's in trouble? I'm quite serious about this.

Olbermann lamenting cruelty toward Craig? That's really just too rich. Olbermann is of course reveling in Craig's disgrace, going so far as to have produced and played on this evening's show a mocking "Dragnet" re-enactment of the restroom scene.

COX: I think that his understanding of even the conservative base is rather incomplete. I think that someone like Sam Brownback, you may disagree with him, but you really cannot doubt his social conservative credentials, at least has the strength of character to extend Christian mercy.

That's when Cox ruled Romney off the Christian reservation.

COX: I know Mitt Romney is not himself Christian, or [trying to retrieve herself] that's a point of debate, but to show some kind of compassion for somebody who at least there family is going through something really terrible, I think it smacks of opportunism for him to, you know, throw the guy aside.

I wonder if "Time" endorses the view of its Washington editor of Time.com questioning Romney's Christianity?

—Mark Finkelstein is a NewsBusters contributing editor and host of Right Angle. Contact him at mark@gunhill.net.


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I have got to ask.  Who

I have got to ask.  Who dresses these reporterettes?  Talk about a homely waif . . .  It is just that it is hard to take anyone serious that has issues dressing themselves. 

I guess she is better than that ugly one with the bad teeth that you have been showing pictures of lately. Althouth she is even less bright than this one. 

Also, please stop showing pictures of that one (now identified in a tell all as a sl*t) that always looks like a deer in head lights . . . Katie something or other.

Thank you.    

jd, I love a man with a

jd,

I love a man with a sense of style!

Nicely done. 

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

I agree; in the other

I agree; in the other "Wonkette" thread I posted this:


As an aside: is that a photo of Cox? I thought she was supposed to be
the "hot babe" of the bloggers. She looks downright dowdy in that
photo...ruffled shirt and cardigan sweater (Robin Givhan, call your
office!). Maybe working for Time has toned down more than her
attitude??

Is my memory correct? Didn't she used to be touted as a "hot chick"?

Also, what's with this:

I think it smacks of opportunism for him to, you know, throw the guy aside.

Is she seriously saying Romney should not have gotten rid of him?  Oh, right, he should keep him on, so she and his other critics could have a field day with it.

 

I am constantly amused by

I am constantly amused by the double-think of microcephalic bigots like Uberdork and Cox.

"I think it smacks of opportunism for him to, you know, throw the guy aside."

Translation: Romney, no matter what he says or does will never be a "Christian" (which Cox knows that he isn't) because he is Mormon.

If Romney disassociates himself from Craig, it is opportunism. If he allies himself with Craig, he will considered a confederate of deviancy.

The political and religious insight of Uberdork and Cox is a credit to all of us U.S. Americans. Sarcasm off.

Liberal: a power worshipper without power. George Orwell

Typical lib think

And of course, Cox is never identified as a liberal nor is she interested in being fair in the general sense.

Take Time Seriously?

It is no secret that so many of the mainstream pro-democrat media come from bonafide liberal backgrounds. Bill Moyers, George Stephanopoulis, Chris Matthews, Tim Russert and now...Ann Marie Cox, formerly known as the Wonkette. From liberal blogger to editor at Time confirms (as if any more evidence is needed) that Time has shifted far away from it's original stature of reasonable journalism to a complete and utter journalistic joke.

From liberal blogger to

From liberal blogger to editor at Time

She was also at one time an editor for a radical left/socialist online magazine that originated out of Berkeley.

Although I guess by the standards of Berkeley, it was considered hard right.

SMG 

 

Catty Cox in glass green frilly blouses shant toss stones

I always find it bizarre in the bazarre of liberal rug sellers how a rather ugly high lit blonde with a uggo too small brown sweater poured over her neon frilly green blouse that looks like it came off of a 70's version of Soul Train can always find an Olberman to find her an expert on anything, but how to make men wince "at what is that".

Catty chics like this need a brain for one thing and for 2 thing a fashion miser and for 3 thing she needs make up or a skin cutter to fix her aging neck.

Nope not a Katie Couric fan, nor a Romney nor a Craig fan any more...........but am wondering why is it that Craig if he is homosexual is all of a sudden a pariah to Liberals?

If Larry Craig is judged by his wanderings, than the interesting stories on Janet Reno liking leather and little girls to Hillary swinging both sides of the gender are fair game now too.

Was it not Democrats parading gayly in debate before the same gay groupings who everyone knows who lives in a big city can find screaming into the night in public parks having battery sex on each other in sodom revelation, to the recruitment brigades which fan out to clubs introducing young kids to the ecstasy of ecstasy and booze as they pass out raping them into their first "experience" to the wonderful growing lawyer money pit of "divorced gays in mass who were married in massachoosettes"........were not Obama, Edwards, Clinton and company all telling us what goes on behind closed doors is nobody's business?

I do believe Larry had the potty door closed, so according to Phil Donahue all his wankerings are Clinton amnesiac "I did not have sex with that woman Monica Lewinski".

It would be wonderful if Newsbusters just kept a running tally of Letterman, Cox, Oblerman, Matthews and friends to prove exactly what I exposed long ago.........the biggest homophobes in the world are liberals. If you go on Huffington you soon see the biggest sin and insult they will level at Bush is his being homosexual. The featured blogger Robert Shearer did unfunny satire on it concerning Bush and Rove.

So how is what Craig did a bad thing when Democrats court and promote this activity all the time? One would think Cox would be applauding the RNC for expanding it's gay horizons..........

Unless Cox is exposing she hates gays like all Democrats hate gays just like they talk about in their private parties.

Where is Hollywood coming to the aid of a gay male under attack by the liberal press? It sure isn't right bashing gays in this one.

 

*HIC IACET ARTORIVS REX QVONDAM REXQVE FVTVRVS

Yeah she should probably

Yeah she should probably just wear black cocktail dresses, 24-7. :-D 

Careful, Bal

We all know you've dissed Anne for doing the same.

You must admit....Anne looks much better on TV than this lime green & brown, um, person.

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

On cocktail dresses

And what can possibly be wrong with a black cocktail dress? 

(unless it's long, in which case there is much wrong with it)

:-) 

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

Nuttin' wrong with that.

Nuttin' wrong with that. Cox looks like she's buying from the Ashley and Mary Kate Bag Lady Collection. Not a fan.

Geesh

Maybe because the ratings are so low, and thus there's not much of a budget, the wardrobe lady has to steal from "The Golden Girls" archives.

Don't think so, Felicity.

Don't think so, Felicity. ALL of the Golden Girls dressed better than that!

Also, what you guys up above are calling Ann's cocktail dress, isn't. It's a plain black sheath. No glitz, no glamour. What used to be called the "little black dress" that no woman could do without, because it could be worn anywhere, dressed down, or up.

The fact that it shows Ann has legs "up to here" is what has everyone in a dither. Only Katie Couric is allowed to show off her gams.

 

In MSM, it's always OK to question a conservative's faith

"I wonder if 'Time' endorses the view of its Washington editor of Time.com questioning Romney's Christianity?" 

Mark, with all due respect, that's a silly question.  If someone casts himself/herself as a sincere Christian with conservative political views, the MSM will always question their faith.  Cox is being unusually charitable letting Sam Brownback off the hook.  To the MSM, the only legitimate Christians are those who are liberal politically and theologically.  In other words, not a threat.

If someone challenged Cox about her faith, whatever it may be, she'd probably squeal like a stuck pig.

When you put the clowns in charge, don't be surprised when a circus breaks out.

Christian?

As for Cox, those of us who really are Christians will take care of her, so no need to worry.

/spoken through a megaphone

Really are Christians?

A debate on the subject with a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and a paid minister is found at the link below.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/blogalogue/2007/06/who-gets-to-define-christian.html

LOL!  Another hit and run

LOL!  Another hit and run pasting.  I also love the passive-aggressive use of "paid minister" there. 

Does this link of yours include the comments pasted below it?  Namely, the D&C citation where Jesus Christ allegedly told Joseph Smith that "Every other religion is an abomination in the sight of God." 

Is that true Daniel?  If it is, then it actually does separate the LDS from all other Christian denominations.  This leads one to ask, "Who was making the divisive comments to begin with, Cox or the D&C?"

And since were throwing "ahem" debate links*, this debate on YouTube just happens to be a favorite of mine.  It doesn't talk over anyone's head and deals with specifics, like the stark difference between the God of the Bible and the God or Mormonism.  I don't expect you to actually watch it though.  It would just cause you too much discomfort. 

Further, I have had previous debates with LDS members both here and on other boards that would admit (when pressed) that the LDS are not followers of traditional Christian orthodoxy.  I can deliver the complete quotes with member name, date, and post anytime. 

Those encounters were not the norm, sice Mormons are actually taught to be evasive and/or deceptive about their faith as a rule,   

So let's quit with the distortions.  Please. 

-PJ 

*To be fair, you'd have to read the previous editorial that led to Daniel's link to get a fair account, correct?

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07 

Here's a quote that lives

Here's a quote that lives next door to the link that Daniel Baker just cited.  I think it's very relevant to this discussion.

"We are not talking here about the postmodern conception of Christianity that minimizes truth. We are not talking about Christianity as a mood or as a sociological movement. We are not talking about liberal Christianity that minimizes doctrine nor about sectarian Christianity which defines the faith in terms of eccentric doctrines. We are talking about historic, traditional, Christian orthodoxy."  -Al Mohler 6/28/07

If Mark Finkelstein wants to use the broader definition of Christianity, then so be it.  It will only serve to confuse the issue.

-PJ

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07 

pj, you are definately

pj, you are definately smarter than Debra Smith, and not as much as a wack job, but your obsession over my religion and somehow proving it to be wrong ( as if that made yours right ) is right up there with her obsession, and it is getting annoying.

pj, you are definately

pj, you are definately smarter than Debra Smith, and not as much as a wack job, but your obsession over my religion and somehow proving it to be wrong ( as if that made yours right ) is right up there with her obsession, and it is getting annoying.

How self-centered of a comment is that?  Surprise CV, I'm an equal opportunity nitpicker here, with a track record that I can point to.  If you recall, I even debated you on right alongside an Evangelical, remember?  

I think this all should have been totally obvious to you a long time ago.  Heck, I've even gone after the denomination I currently attend! Remember the position I took when Falwell died?  I just got done going after a Roman Catholic who posted a 21 point diatribe denying sola scriptura! 

So it's crystal clear that I have only one agenda here, and it's pretty much wrapped up in that Mohler quote above.  IMO, America is made up of a large majority of ChrINOs.

But I think CV just wants to hang an "anti" label on me.  All I gotta say to this is, if you want to garner some sympathy--you'll have to get in line with all the other "victims."

Unbelievable!

-PJ  

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07 

Trach: You wrote "I have

Trach:

You wrote "I have only one agenda here, and it's pretty much wrapped up in that Mohler quote above. IMO, America is made up of a large majority of ChrINOs."

I understand and respect people's fervent religious beliefs. However, the "agenda" of NewsBusters has to do with combatting liberal media bias, not serving as a forum for heated religious debates. I would respectfully ask you and others to conduct such debates via private emails or in other forums rather than on these threads.

Sincerely,

Mark

No problem.  As a matter

No problem.  As a matter of fact, I make the majority of my religious posts in the OT board. 

Could you do me the fair favor of telling the others as well?  Many others here don't seem to get it.

And lastly, you'll have to admit that you opened this can up yourself.  Since Cox put the theologian hat on and you took her to task for it.  Why am I not allowed to defend her from a conservative POV as a religious conservative myself?

-PJ

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07 

Thanks, Trach. You wrote:

Thanks, Trach.

You wrote: "Could you do me the fair favor of telling the others as well? "

I did state "I would respectfully ask you and others to conduct such debates via private emails or in other forums rather than on these threads."

By singling out the always

By singling out the always fashionably late reactionary. 

:bows:

That spotlight's kinda warm y'know.  >;)

-PJ 

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07 

There is no question, Mark

Mark, it's actually a simple matter--honestly, I don't understand why people get so up in arms about a factual statement.

There are a lot of denominations, sects, and groups that legitimately can be said to be Christian, but the Mormon religion is not one of them.

An example, if I may: Christianity, by definition, is Trinitarian, affirming the Biblical revelation of one God in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.  Mormonism does not affirm this Biblical truth, and considers the triune God to be, instead, three separate individuals.  That simple difference is enough to put Mormonism outside the big tent of Christianity, but they didn't stop there.  

Mormonism teaches that the present-day god of Earth was, in the distant past on some faraway planet, a man who achieved godhood by listening to his deity.  Fortunately, this newly-minted god was able to bring his wife along for the ride, and all past, present, and future inhabitants of our planet are a result of this god and goddess' rabbit-like reproduction.  If we listen to Earth's god, according to Mormonism, we can also have the opportunity to become gods of our own respective planets!

And that's just a sliver of their belief system, one that is far closer to Scientology than to Christianity.  However, if the Washington editor of Time.com questioned Tom Cruise's insistence that Scientology was really a Christian denomination, I doubt anyone would do a double-take, much less express outrage.

Mr. Romney self-identifies as a Mormon, so by his own admission, he is not a Christian.  If you'd like to discuss this in more detail, Mark, just follow the link below.

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

I was holding my breath

I was holding my breath with each posting, hoping I wouldn't see any more Mormon bashing...and then you went there.

I am a Mormon, and you sir are not in a position to claim that I don't believe in Christ, or don't believe in the Bible, and hence not a Christian...now can we not turn this into another anti-Mormon thread?

Thankfully, one can't hold one's breath long enough to do damage

I "went there"?  Where's "there," exactly?

How is it "bashing" to make true statements about the Mormon religion?  If anything I said was incorrect, please make the appropriate corrections.

Is Mormonism Trinitarian?  What does Mormonism say about Jesus' identity and origin?  What does Mormonism say about the afterlife?  Aside from certain terminology, Mormonism has virtually nothing in common with Christianity.

I'm not claiming you're not a Christian--by identifying yourself as a Mormon, you do that yourself.  Now, I would much rather you be a Christian than be a Mormon, but the choice is ultimately yours.

Again, if I've published anything that isn't factual, please let me know.

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

You claimed I am not a

You claimed I am not a Christian, that is where you went.  Again you aren't the authority on who is Christian and who isn't.  If you want to continue being a jerk about it, that choice is ultimately yours.

Take unsane's advice and worry about your own religion, because being a so called expert on mine doesn't by default make yours more "Christian".

On Romney

Maybe you are better off worrying about your own faith rather than telling others what they do and do not believe.  But that's just me.

Romney's religion is as immaterial as Kennedy's was.  (Remember how many people were trembling over his Catholicism?) 

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

Regarding Mr. Romney and Mr. Kennedy

If an individual's belief system is immaterial, what does that say about the individual?

And I'll ask you the same question I've already posed: What did I post about Mormonism that was inaccurate?  I'm not "telling others what they do and do not believe," I'm listing what the Mormon religion says about itself from its own literature and its own teachings.

I don't think we want to get started about JFK, since his private life showed that his being a member of the Catholic denomination didn't translate as well as it should have.

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

Clarification

What a person does/does not believe, so long as no harm is done to me, is 100% immaterial. 

For the record, I am an atheist.  Does that somehow degrade my posts here on NB?   

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

Romney is a Christian

Romney recognizes Jesus as his Savior, and has lived a life in service to others. He headed congregations of Christians and has gone door to door teaching that only through Christ could man be saved.

The liberal media wants to start a fight about Romney's beliefs among the right. They want to make us look hypocritical in our religous bigotry.

Which Jesus?

"Romney recognizes Jesus as his Savior".

The individual called "Jesus" in Mormonism is not the Jesus of Christianity.  (If you'd like, we can examine the differences--and there are more than a few.)  So, if Mr. Romney says he is a Mormon and says he recognizes Jesus as his Savior, he's either referring to the "Jesus" of Mormonism or he's a very confused individual.

And, please, explain to me what I've said that's bigoted.

Regarding Ms. Cox's statement, the only bigotry that might be in danger of surfacing is the bigotry which insists that even when a liberal says something that's true, the liberal can't be listened to. 

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

and let the religious war

and let the religious war begin.  First off, he didn't call you a bigot.  Second off, you are not the authority of who is Christian and who isn't.  It is your opinion.  Mormons believe in Jesus Christ to be their Savior, their God, and believe in Heaven and Hell and the whole nine yards.  Just because we don't believe exactly as you do doesn't mean we aren't Christian.  I don't care if there are vast differences in our religions, for there are vast differences in all the various sects of Christianity and Religion.  I don't pray to Zeus, to Allah, to any of the hindu Gods, to Al Gore...the God of Global Warming, to Baal, etc. I pray to my Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ, and that makes me a Christian.

I am so sick of this argument.  And for the last time, Romney is running as President, not Sunday School President, but President of the United States of America.

Who's mongering any war around here?

A few points:

1) I didn't say "he called me a bigot."  I asked him to identify what statement I made that was bigoted.  There's a difference.

2) I haven't, for a picosecond, presumed to be a personal authority on who is, and who isn't, a Christian.  God has already made the parameters more than clear, so the argument is with Him, not me.  Please don't use that "who made you an authority" dodge again, all right?

3) Let me say this again, for clarity's sake: The individual called "Jesus" in Mormonism bears only a passing resemblence to the Jesus of the Bible.  Key differences include Jesus' position in the Godhead, the events surrounding both His spiritual origin and His physical conception, His relationship to Satan, and the efficacy of the cross.  I've asked for people to provide information that would illustrate that the "Jesus" of Mormonism is the same Jesus of Christianity, but no one has yet to give any specifics.

4) It's a red herring to pretend I'm saying you have to believe exactly as I do, so please don't use it again.  There is an objective set of standards as to what does and does not make a sect, denomination, or group Christian.  I've illustrated several ways in which Mormonism does not meet the objective standard with regard to the fundamentals of the Christian faith.

5) Folks, when a liberal says something that's accurate, the conservative response cannot be anything other than a fact-based response.  Sometimes, it means admitting that, in this instance, the liberal got her facts right.

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

Mormons Rock in my American fundie book

Respectful exchange of faith differences is a must for fundies like me...

Mormons are a valued cultural ally of mine and outstanding champions of good and decency in our country. Is my claim on Christianity any better than theirs in the eyes of God?

Only God can answer that. So why should we beat each other up on this?

If you must disagree then it works much better done with a glad heart...

 

thank you tm, and likewise.

thank you tm, and likewise.

See me smiling?

All I'm doing is asking questions and stating facts.  For that, I'm a "jerk." 

Which is a fine response, except that it doesn't answer any of the questions I've asked or address any of the facts on the table.  Other than that, it's great.

"Is my claim on Christianity any better than theirs in the eyes of God?"

Depends upon the basis for your claim.  If your claim is a personal, saving relationship with the Jesus of Christianity--the second Person of the Trinity, Son of God and God the Son, the Word made flesh--then yes, indeed, since that's the only "claim" that's valid.  If your claim is grounded in someone named "Jesus" mentioned in Mormonism--someone who's Satan's spirit-brother, who came into physical being when the god of Earth had sex with Mary, whose death was insufficient to save you from your sins, who represents a religion that promises you, too, can be the god of your own planet when you die--then your claim has no merit in the eyes of God.

And I'm still amazed that precious few around here can string together the words "This time, for whatever reason, the liberal got it right."

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

...look man I've gone your

...look man I've gone your route before...

And technically I believe the exact same things...

I just don't express it this way at all - just check out my surrounding posts for my approach to the exact same message you have...

Just some free advice for ya...

a few points

1. ok, but he wasn't talking to you so why ask the question in the first place?

2. According to you and how you interpret the scriptures...get over yourself.

3. Yep there are differences...doesn't mean we aren't Christian. We claim to be Christians, we preach of Christ, we worship Christ, and everything in our church is done in the name of Christ. You on the other hand assert that I am wrong, I am not a Christian because I interpret the Bible differently. If you are God himself, I am all ears, otherwise its your opinion and belief that we aren't Christian, and mine that we are. I think it is funny and annoying that you and others feel such a need to judge my religion.

4. Don't care if we are 99.9% different, I know that I am Christian, and you keep trying to assert that because I am 99% different must mean I am not...how silly...let me flip it...you aren't a Christian...I know your priest and parents and all those who go to your church say you are, but I say you aren't...end of argument.

5. Accurate to whom? To you the almighty Mike, the final judge on who is a Christian and who isn't? It is inaccurate to claim a religious belief as fact, which is why she was quick to back peddle.

I call ya a Christian,

I call ya a Christian, CV:)

I'm Lutheran. Please call me one too

absolutely :)

absolutely :)

A few more points

1) So you are suggesting that I'm not a bigot?  That's very kind.

2) Again, you're avoiding the obvious by insisting I'm engaging in subjective assertion rather than an appeal to an objective standard.  You couldn't be more wrong.

3) Claims don't equal facts, do they?  And I see that you've yet to answer any of the comparisons regarding the differences between the "Jesus" of Mormonism and the Jesus of Christianity.

4) I'm just going by what you say, so there's no need to be hostile.  You assert that you are a Mormon; since Mormonism and Christianity are 100% mutually exclusive, it is impossible for you to currently be a Christian--and I'd really like for you to be a Christian.  And since you gave no objective proof to support your "flip," it was an ineffective rhetorical device.

5) Accurate to the objective standard.  Again, you're engaging in personal disparagement instead of addressing the issue at hand.  Hardly a conservative response, is it?

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

1. Can 2. You 3. Maybe

1. Can

2. You

3. Maybe just

4. Lighten up

5. The tone

...a bit? then people will be more inclined to see your invaluable insights much more often:)...

Ah, it's so light and breezy in here!

Yes, when some people are tossing around pejoratives like "jerk" and "bigot" the way other people toss Frisbees, I really should relax.

No, seriously.  I really should!  Thanks for the reminder.

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

 

turn the other cheek - it's

turn the other cheek - it's all good

pick up a cross and carry it

try the crown of thorns - it's so you

count the cost, it takes a while

I was thinking along these lines...

...though the remarks tossed my way hardly qualify as persecution:

Matthew 5

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.  12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

So, yes, I should be glad.

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

 

yes and he also cautioned

yes and he also cautioned using his name in vain. I think it is funny when people like you act all high and mighty get called on being a jerk claim victimhood and use this scripture to justify their actions.

Victim?

You must be confusing me with someone who gets his feelings hurt at the drop of a hat. 

And if you'll notice, I observed that the liberal tactic of attacking the person rather than debating the issue hardly qualifies as persecution.  Now, would it be possible for you to rein in your misguided enthusiasm?

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

 

you are confusing me with

you are confusing me with someone who has misguided enthusiasm. I will observe it is a liberal tactic to claim victimhood to avoid accountability.

-

Yawn. 

The Constitution makes it impossible for the President to impose his religion, whatever it is.  End of story. 

This is a media and political blog.  Please stay on topic - in this case,  the biased, nasty comment of a poorly dressed non-expert "editor".  Thank you.

On topic

When the comment is accurate, labeling it as "biased" and "nasty" is not a legitimate response--and certainly isn't indicative of an interest in measured debate.

This is a media and political blog.  The day faith can't be openly discussed on a conservative-leaning blog is the day conservatism itself is in trouble.

And since this is a media and political blog, the various insubstantial comments about the clothing choice of the quoted editor don't really give the discussion any more in the way of gravitas, do they?

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

-

And let us not forget her self-immolation during the Imus incident.

I'm embarrassed to admit that it took Imus' saying something so devastatingly crass to make me realize that there just was no reason beyond ego to play along. I did the show almost solely to earn my media-elite merit badge.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1609447,00.html

Mormons are not Christians

Mormons are not Christians.

Mormons believe what is written in the Book of Mormon. 

Christians don't.

Okay, is this an example of

Okay, is this an example of religious debate or not? 

He could very likely be agreeing with Cox, only from a non-liberal POV.  After all, look at the topic tags below the blog. 

See, I agree that bringing up religion on an off-topic thread is hijacking; in some cases it can even be seen as trolling. 

But this is on-topic.  I don't see how it possibly couldn't be.  It's not an actual report per se.  It's more like a two-person Sunday opinion panel.  I can see the case for why the line between commentary and reporting is being blurred on the MSM, but this doesn't look like news at all.  It looks like commentary.

Someone help me out.  I'll give a cookie to the first one that helps me untangle this mess.

-PJ

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07 

It's on topic, but these people are disgusting

...the smug, self-satisfied bigotry these people display is disgusting.  

If they're not liberals (a suspicion I harbor), they might as well be.  There's no difference in their self appointed God-like powers of determining what or who is or is not a Christian than there is in Cox...or Bill Moyers. 

Are you sure?  Do you

Are you sure?  Do you realize how close that statement is to an absolute assertion?

We can't all be right, but we can't all be wrong either.

-PJ

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07 

If you mean

If you mean is this on topic, absolutely.  ;^>

don't like Ana Marie Cox

don't like Ana Marie Cox but technically Mormonism is not Christianity.  While most Mormons like to be branded as a denomination (the only true one), in reality their theological positions on the most critical aspects of who God, Jesus, and man is (and how the Bible alone is insufficient) push Mormonism outside orthodox Christianity and into cult status. 

 Still, I like Mitt Romney and have no problems voting for the man who has shared family values.  Ironically I'd rather have a Mormon in office than a person claiming to be a Southern Baptist (Hillary). 

Actually Hillary is

Actually Hillary is Methodist. Bill Clinton is Southern Baptist.

Maybe we we Christians

Maybe we we Christians should be called "Biblians" instead?

Christ called himself "a Jew"

}}---> Gesundheidt

 

~LYDSEXICS UNTIE!~

"Speaking for God"

On this board, I've seen posters from all variety of Christiandom go against each other, each swearing that they were the only "true" church of Christianity, and that all others were fakes. 

Those who think they speak for God and claim to "know" that Mormons are not Christians are bigots...period.

Those who think they speak for God...are bigots...period.

RJ, the facts...

According to the CIA World Factbook, the U.S. is 78% Christian and 10% no religion, while other religions comprise 12% of the U.S. population. In descending order, the largest identified religious groups are Protestant (52%); Roman Catholic (24%); Mormon (2%); Buddhist (2%); Jewish (1%); and Muslim (1%).

 

So non-Mormon Christians out number Mormons about 40 to 1.  And most non-Mormon Christians would not agree with you as their stated doctrine would preclude any Mormons from their faith.

 

"…you are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts." -the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

didn't realize religion

didn't realize religion doctorine could be decided democratically...so if the majority of Christians believe and thereby claim I am not a Christian it must be so.

except our founders just

except our founders just loved to frustrate the majority:)

Christianity by most defintions

Christianity by most defintions are faiths that believe that Jesus is the Christ, Lord and Savior.  Since we do not believe in the same Jesus, we should not be calling ourselves the same thing....so if you want exclusive rights to "Christian", fine, just call me "Believer".  Works for me.

"…you are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts." -the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

Is that really the best response you have?

I've listed critical differences between Mormonism and Christianity.  They're not up for debate.  They exclude Mormonism from the big tent of Christianity.

Now, did you want to continue to misrepresent people like me and call me schoolyard names, or were you interested in a discussion?

This time, the liberal got it right.  It makes you no less a conservative to admit when a liberal is telling the truth, just as appealing to facts doesn't make someone a bigot.

Ellipse... Period.

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

I don't really care what your OPINION is Mr Bratton,

...or how carefully you justify your claims about who is or is not a Christian.  Bigotry is bigotry.

oy vay:(

oy vay:(

LK - we've been down this road before...

Not sure Mike knows what he is up against...I think I will just watch for awhile.

v

vrwc...

huh?

[ I am staying out of this. ] 

The Bible is not a

The Bible is not a striking tool, is it:)?

Please use a hammer

Mike's doing a fine job, I

Mike's doing a fine job, I am just happy to be represented here.

v

i'd say he's doing a "bang

i'd say he's doing a "bang up" job myself...

ouch

His salvation message hurts like hell! thank you Jesus...

By all means

And Mike's had these sorts of discussions since long before NewsBusters was around, so don't worry.  (Sorry... I hate it when I refer to myself in the third person.)

The discussions are usually more than "You're a jerk" or "You're a bigot," though--but I am hopeful. :)

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

big hug and high

big hug and high five:)

Jesus rocks!

it's "Good News"

let's deliver accordingly

Mr Bratton, we've had bigots like you here many times

You remind me of one in particular named DebraSmith.   She had a bigot-blog too, and she carefully constructed her bigotry, just like you do.  You ought to check her out.

I thought you were done?

Apparently, "respecting someone else's wishes" doesn't last as long as it used to.

And if the best you have, RJ, is to use the emotional, liberal tactic of repeating the same lies about someone over and over again rather than engaging their ideas, you've come to the table unprepared.

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

 

Well, Mr. Bratton, I had hoped that others

would agree with me and stop, but it seems the conversation continued, as did your attacks. 

I think it's great that you've been so enthusiastic about providing a clear example of your version of proper Christian behavior.  You certainly are accomplished at arrogantly condemning those who disagree with you.  I assume it comes from long experience.  

I have no need to "be prepared", or to use "tactics" or "emotion."  Nor am I a liar as you call me with such a practiced and facile tongue.   I'll leave all that behavior to you, where it has, obviously, found a comfortable home. 

No, the only thing I need is the ability to recognize bigotry when I see it...and I have.

To coin a phrase...

So, if others jump off the nearest cliff, you'll join in the festivities?

Hey, you said you were bowing out of the thread--I was merely observing how quickly you went from "respectfully" bowing out to bowing right back in.

RJ, let me ask you a question, and at the same time pose it to others who respond similarly.  What motivates you to make anonymous, pugilistic posts to people you've never met?  I've asked more than one substantive question on this thread, and the best response you've had (so far) is to erroneously call me a bigot. 

Please, tell me that's not all you bring to the table.  Tell me there's something more to your dialectic than "that's your version" and "I'm rubber and you're glue".  Simple manners would preclude your talking that way in public, so why do you type that way in private?

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

Thank you Mr Bratton, for your concern.

Apparently, in your overarching need to control, you've added Mommy duties to your responsibilities.   "Jump off a cliff if others do it?"  Heh. 

As I said, you may believe you've cloaked yourself in invincible "justification", but bigotry is still bigotry: 1)strong conviction or prejudice, expecially in matters of religion, race....etc.  2) a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion" (my favorite in your case, but #1 also fits well)

Attack and denigrate others all you wish, Mr. Bratton, but you can't change the definition of the word.

It's so easy

Being a man, it's "Daddy" duty--and being a father of two who's heard the type of argument you favor more than once, I have no problem identifying it when people such as your own self use it in lieu of actual debate.

And yes, there's the supposedly ironclad, if unsophisticated, appeal to the dictionary.  But what did you leave out of the definition you chose, hmm?  What was lost to the ellipse?  How did you attempt to "change the definition of the word"?  Let's see: "A person of strong conviction or prejudice, especially in matters of religion, race or politics, who is intolerant of those who feel differently."

Please, show me just how intolerant I am.

Who did I attack?  Who did I denigrate?  Have I called Mr. Romney a "jerk" for being a Mormon?  Have I suggested there be Mormon-only restrooms or water fountains?  Have I suggested those Mormon "zealots" wear a paper "M" pinned to their clothing?  All I've done is cite an achingly simple theological truth--that Mormonism is not a Christian denomination, regardless of protestations to the contrary.  I'm just reporting the information; how other people decide to process it is entirely up to them.

The only real intolerance demonstrated in this thread has been found in bellicose, empty remarks from people who want to label rather than discuss.  The political bigotry, noticeably absent from your edited definition, lies in taking any candidate at his or her word on any issue because you might consider that candidate to be "the one," to be electable, to be enough in agreement on issues meaningful to you that you'll ignore any glaring weaknesses, such as inconsistency in his or her voting record or disingenuousness regarding his personal beliefs, and attack others in writing with words you wouldn't dream of using face-to-face.

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

Mr Bratton, you can't possibly be serious

On second thought, you probably are serious.  

You ask who did you attack or denigrate?  Everyone, Mr Bratton, everyone.  Mr Romney, other posters, anyone who doesn't fit your version of "truth."  Why, it's your speciality.   It's an integral part of your writings.  You shouldn't hide your talent behind false humility.  Be proud of something you do so well.

Um, change the definition of bigot?  One must be all of those things to be a bigot?  Ha.  I didn't add "politics" to the definition because it's irrelevant.  I'm calling you a religious bigot, not a political bigot (I probably should have left off "race", too, since I'm assuming you're not a racial bigot).  As for "those who feel differently", it's obviously covered in #2.  Strange how you manage to ignore that, when I made an issue of how well it fits you.  Tsk, tsk, Mr Bratton. 

Now, I assume you'll proclaim that "politics" MUST be included in this little conversation, but that's a false addition to the point we've been discussing, and a transparent attempt to dilute my focus on religious bigotry. (And, yes, I would say any of this to your face.)

I find it bizarre, Mr Bratton, that someone like you can attempt to tear at the core of another's religion, while proclaiming that you've not attacked them, denigrated them, or exhibited intolerance toward them.   Equally bizarre is that someone with your big, growling keyboard personality isn't self-confident enough in your position to just stand up and admit to what you do. 

I am serious, and don't call me Mr. Bratton

That's my father--I'm Mike.

You say things about me, yet you don't support them, except to reinforce the notion that those who preach "tolerance" the loudest are often those who have the most problem with it.

If you're not big into doctrine and theology, that's no crime. The problem lies in suggesting that those who do have more experience in the area can't possibly know what they're talking about--that, rather than appealing to objective theological truth, they must be garden-variety bigots ready to ride to Mitt Romney's next campaign stop and burn a few crosses.

As with your friend CV, I invite you to reconsider your lack of interest in the issues brought up in this thread; if you become interested in substantive discussion, just send me a message.

I hope you have a marvelous weekend and a great holiday.

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

"objective theological

"objective theological truth"

LOL!

I ignored that line the first few times, but I just can't stand it anymore.

Objective implies that the "truth" would be the same no matter who was doing the viewing.  Just try proving that you have the same definition in your mind of the word "God" as your nieghbor Christian has in his mind.  It can't be done in this world. Words about intangible theological concepts like "belief" will ALWAYS have subjective differences inside the minds of individuals.  Look at the way you've used "believe" above.  To paraphrase - 'He might say he believes in Jesus, but he doesn't believe the right way, so he's not a Christian.'  Your definition of the "truth of belief" is completely subjective. 

What "is and isn't Christian" may seem subjectively true to you and others of like mind and that's fine, perception is reality, but please don't insult everyone's intelligence with the absurd notion that you're being objective.

Khyris, your arguments have been excellent,

...logical and on point.  (Formidable, as the song by Charles Aznavour goes.) 

I'm sure however, that Mr. Bratton will reject them, as he's rejected all arguments that disagree with what he "knows" to be the "truth."

-----------------------

Mr. Bratton, I've backed up everything I've said here.  In particular, I've shown that, by definition, you're a bigot.  Frankly, in my opinion, people like you are worse than bigots, because of the need to aggressively attack the religious beliefs of others.  People like you instigate religious wars.

As to your insistence that you do not attack and denigrate others, I suggest you take the time to thoroughly re-read the threads and then try to tell me that with a straight face. 

Ok, you just stated you have two kids.

After you state you have 2 children, you object to being called Mr. Bratton, and claim that's your father.

 LOL - Now that was rich.

OK, respecting Mark's request

I'm done here.

RESPECTFUL REQUEST TO

RESPECTFUL REQUEST TO ALL:

It's entirely understandable that this thread would promote debate on the underlying theological issues. Please understand that such debates, while interesting and important, are unrelated to the mission of NewsBusters and are likely to stir discord among our valued members. I would ask that should people wish to pursue them, they do so via private messages, emails, etc., but please not to do so on this thread.

Sincerely,

Mark

another suggestion

Take it to the Woodshed!

TO THE

TO THE WOODSHED!!!

(howard dean voice) YEEEAAAAHHHH!!!!!!

Respect-laden request right back atcha, Mark

Ms. Cox got it right. Is it possible for you to admit that your assertion might not be an accurate one, based on the information you've received in this thread?

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

As mentioned, I'm asking

As mentioned, I'm asking that this thread not become a forum for religious debate. Please desist from these kinds of posts.

Amen!

:-> 

"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...

MM...Amen is a religious

MM...Amen is a religious statement.  You bad.

v

I agree. This argument over

I agree. This argument over whose religion is more right and wrong is inappropriate here.

Some of us weren't arguing.

And still aren't. 

Is there any subject, CV, to which you appeal to an objective standard?

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

not sure what you meant by

not sure what you meant by that Mike, but it is amazing to me that even though you come across as somewhat intelligent do not grasp the difference between religious belief and opinion and actual fact.

If the reporter were to say "some feel Mormons aren't Christian, though The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ( the Mormons ) insist that they are..." that would be a factual statement.

But to say "Mormons aren't Christian" or to say "Mormons are Christian" are religious opinions...to further claim "I know Mitt Romney is not himself a Christian" is not a fact, it is a religious opinion...as only God can declare Mitt to be a Christian or not. And she knew it, which is why she started to back peddle.

Belief in fact

I don't know... I thought it was a pretty clear question.  Is there any issue where you appeal to an objective standard?

And with regard to religious opinions, they actually can (and should) be grounded in facts, else they can be blown around by the slightest wind. 

For example, the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ is a fact.  It isn't up for debate, and it has survived numerous attempts at being disproved.  This is a good thing, because if the facts of the Resurrection were somehow dismantled, the words written by the apostle Paul would be true, and those of us who are Christians would be "of all men most miserable."

Christianity is constructed upon such a foundation of facts.  Those facts, rather than personal opinons, eliminate Mormonism from the body of Christ.  And to ascribe motive to Ms. Cox is misplaced--we don't know why she put it in reverse.  Perhaps she didn't want to be called a "jerk" or a "bigot"?

But I still would like to know if there's any issue, any area in which you do appeal to an objective standard?  If you'd like, feel free to e-mail me.

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

not sure what you meant by

not sure what you meant by objective standard.

The physical resurection of Jesus Christ is a religious belief, there is no proof that Christ even existed, or Moses, or Noah, or Abraham, or Adam etc. Christianity wasn't constructed on a foundation of facts, it was constructed on the faith in Jesus Christ and faith that the Bible is the word of God, and faith that your church's understanding of the Bible is the correct way of thinking.

You are confusing religious facts the same way global warming zealots confuse scientific consensus as fact.

It's a shame I'm not a betting man

Quite an honor to hit the trifecta all in one thread, with "jerk," "bigot," and "zealot."

So the existence of Jesus isn't a historical fact? Fascinating...

How are your responses, CV, in any way illustrative of someone who has a "conservative voice"? I have to ask, because conservatism is very much about the give-and-take in the arena of ideas, a realm you've studiously avoided in this thread. Why is that?

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport...

first I haven't called you

first I haven't called you a bigot or a zealot...I compared you to global warming zealots and I have called you a jerk.

as far as being able to give and take in the arena of ideas, I'm still waiting for an idea of yours dealing with government...last time I checked religion doesn't fall under the catagory of ideas.

 

That's interesting

"Religion doesn't fall under the category of ideas."

Christianity is the single most influential idea in the history of the planet, but it doesn't pass muster with you?

Whew...

I was remarking on the sum total of thoughtful counterpoint on this now-passing thread, so don't think I was lumping everything on you--but you could at least claim both your slurs, rather than qualifying one of them.

Like your friend RJ, you've come to the discussion unequipped.  Perhaps next time you'll bring more to the table?

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

So are you saying that

So are you saying that because I am a conservative I need to be open to your interpretation of religion and what it means to be a Christian? I am certainly open to your freedom of religion, but I do not accept your definition of Christianity nor do I need to be open to other religious ideas in order to be considered a conservative.

You are really reaching, but at least you can feel better about yourself by saying I am ill equipped.

I really expected more

Talk about a cognitive disconnect... my goodness.

What I've said--more than once, now--is that you (and the poster "RJ," as well) are apparently unprepared (or, perhaps, unwilling) to talk about ideas, and that discussion of ideas is a hallmark of American conservatism.

Name-calling?  You're prepared for that.  Deflection?  You're good to go.  Answering direct questions and engaging in a dialogue?  Not so much.

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

It it helps you sleep better Mike

The only name I called you is a Jerk, it fits. Now as far as discussing ideas...it is you who fails to recognize opposing ideas and has his fingers in his ears saying LaLaLa I can't hear you, and cries foul because I compared you to a zealot and called you a jerk, and RJ called you a bigot. So brother, go take care of that beam of yours.

I rather be called those things than to be accused of not being a Christian or Conservative. Like I said Mike, if that helps you feel better, you go ahead and claim victory and claim I am unprepared...holds about as much water as the claim I am not a Christian and not a Conservative...man am I thirsty!

Victory is... not even on the agenda.

You've been asked questions, and you've avoided discussion in favor of personal disparagement.  If you're interested in changing your tactic, I'm at your disposal.

Have a great weekend, and enjoy your holiday!

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

 

what questions have I

what questions have I dodged?

Skankette Cox is wearing Jerry Seinfeld's Pirate Shirt!

...except it looks more like a lettuce leaf from the Jolly Green Giant's loincloth! "Hey, I've got nothing against the press...they wouldn't print it if it wasn't true..." -- Joe Jackson, "Sunday Papers"

NOTE TO ALL

NOTE TO ALL: I will now begin deleting posts by people who ignore my polite request to take their theological debate elsewhere.

Mark

The M.F. Veto authority strikes....

Actually, I think NB provides for such "discussions" to take place elsewhere in the Forum.....   

What good is a Free Press, if it is a False Press ?   David Foote  GoE

With all due respect

With all due respect Mark.  Given the subject of this thread, this is one of the few times that a theogical discussion comparing and contrasting what Mormons and Christians believe is quite relevant.

"Fighters are fun but bombers make policy"

maybe it would have helped

maybe it would have helped for my fellow fundies to keep the gloves up higher:(

I agree with Buff.  As the

I agree with Buff.  As the saying goes.  If you can't take the heat. . .don't serve Mexican.

-PJ

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07 

I think it is important to

I think it is important to remember she is a reporter, not a representative of a Church. Remember, reporters are suppose to be unbias. Saying I know he isn't a Christian is not an unbias statement. You guys like to jump the shark and say her religious belief is fact, so it isn't bias. Since when is a religious belief fact? I agree with Mark on this, the mission is to show media bias...not to somehow prove the impossible that Mormons aren't Christian, and thereby not only offend a good portion of members here, but get sidetrack from the original mission of NB.

If she were to say "Some people don't see Mormons as Christian, though Mormons claim they are" that would be factual and unbias, and I wouldn't have any problem with her statements. And she knew it, which is why she was quick to back peddle.

Regardless of the side

Regardless of the side argument here and returning to the topic at hand....

Does anyone here know if Romney considers himself a Christian?

If he does, wouldn't that by DEFAULT make a flippant, absolute, and unsupported claim to the contrary a very irresponsible position for a journalist to take?  When I say unsupported, I merely refer to her not supporting her claim in this instance... a claim which is "not obvious" to a significant number of people.

I feel the nature of the remark, not the veracity of its content, is what makes this a very relevant NB post.

Well, Khyris, they celebrate Christmas...

...if that helps.

Either way, you've asked a very good question and put up a thoughtful post.

What RJ doesn't understand

What RJ doesn't understand is that I once considered myself a Christian about 12 years ago and rather naively labeled myself as such.  I figured belief = "assent" and sincerity was a good substitute for orthodoxy.

Then one day my presuppositions were challenged in light of history, theology, doctrine, and the very book that we tend to denigrate in one form or another (by either stacking many other volumes on top of it, or throwing it out altogether).  I think I've seen RJ do it once or twice.  What'd he call me again, "a bookist?" LOL!

So I'm saying that 12 years ago I was running around with my own fingers in my ears thinking I was a Christian when I was only one in the sociological/pop cultural sense.  

There are core guidelines that go beyond mere discipleship, sometimes where the whole of Christianity is just so unbearable that many actually chose to abandon Him for good (John 6:65-67). 

There were groups in the NT that labeled themselves part of Christianity that both apostles Paul and John vigorously opposed.  You gonna call them bigots?  

Thank you Pastor Tom James wherever you are.

-PJ  

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07 

My goodness, trach

I was trying to get away from these "no you aren't/yes you are" posts and answer Khyris' very good query about Cox, but you guys just won't let it go. 

I'm glad that you feel you've found what you consider to be the only truly acceptable path.  

As I said earlier, I've seen many on this board, from Roman Catholics to Evangelicals, claim the same about their particular wing of religion. 

And, yes, those folks all fit the definiton of bigot, as I posted above to Mr. Bratton.

Interestingly, as I observe the never-ending bigotry on this board over Romney, it makes me doubt he could ever become President.  I'm not sure I would have voted for him for other reasons, but it's sad to see Religionistas stop a possibly good man.

 

RJ

Interestingly, as I observe the never-ending bigotry on this board over Romney, it makes me doubt he could ever become President.  I'm not sure I would have voted for him for other reasons, but it's sad to see Religionistas stop a possibly good man.

Not one word could I have said better when it comes to Romney.

He has always been my second choice since Thompson got in the mix....who knows I may end up voting for him anyway.

Too early to tell.

Just wanted to thank you.

LOL, BT

It's like DebraSmith has been reincarnated into Mr. Bratton.   He exhibits the same smug, self-satisfied qualities of the original Church Lady.   ;^>

me too Trach...goats and sheep

I grew up in a "Christian" home and by way of my churches confirmation went on my merry way.  Christian I am said I.  ChINO as someone coined yesterday.  At 39, after two years of hard Bibilcal truth, I believed.  Now Trach, I can say with out a doubt, I am a one of His.

v

I don't understand how

I don't understand how "knowing" now is any more valid than "knowing" before... maybe in 2 more years you'll "know" something else. You can't know what you don't know, or you'd know it, you know?

The only Biblical truth is that you will "know" nothing until you are dead, if even then. Until then there is only belief and faith.

But trying to drag this thread kicking and screaming back to the topic one last time...

If Romney "knows" he is a Christian at least within the confines of his own mind ... whether everyone else in the world thinks him wrong or not...  Shouldn't that preclude a responsible journalist from contradicting him without presenting any kind of case whatsoever? Yes or No?

A question

Regarding this phrase, "If Romney 'knows' he is a Christian at least within the confines of his own mind," where else is such subjective rationale encouraged?

Is it all right if President Bush "knows" he's strong on border security "within the confines of his own mind"?  Is it a good thing if Ted Kennedy "knows" he's a good driver "within the confines of his own mind"? 

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

Answering your question...

"where else is such subjective rationale encouraged?"

 I think if I tried real hard I might be able to find some examples on MSNBC and other MSM sources where they take someone who "knows" that they are homosexual at their word, even when what makes one a homosexual has been debated (not making a judgement, just stating a fact). I think the double standard between defineing one as a homosexual being based upon one claiming the title and Romney having to fight tooth and nail to be able to label himself a Christian beliefs is very interesting. I know the comparison isnt perfect but it does demonstrate a point about media bias. 

 

I'm glad you asked that

I'm glad you asked that question... the answer is of course Religion and Philosophy.

If a man claims he knows he is the reincarnation of Napoleon, who is a journalist to say as fact that he is not?  I'm not saying the public has no place forming an opinion, I'm saying the journalist has a responsibility not to promote one.  Just report "The man claims to be the reincarnation of Napoleon." and leave it at that.

I'll ask you the same question... how do you yourself "know" you are a Christian other than from the faith and belief which, by their nature, are within the confines of your own mind?  The idea that you "know" that Romney believes in "the wrong Jesus" is a joke at best.

The problem with your examples is that they're viewable, tangible, real-world evidential actions and what you are arguing over is ethereal, unsubstantial, faith-based concepts and constructs.  But even in your examples, you ask are they "all right," and "good," which are also subjective concepts. 

It's like the old question, is someone with a mixed set of parents black?  The answer is subjective.  In the old days, for many, one drop of black blood was all it took to make you the same as wholely black.  What the child considers themself to be is also subjective.  There is no scientific metric on degrees for what is essentially a social construct.  While we do not disagree that opposing extremes CAN exist, and that degrees of difference are comparable, an artificial binary-black-and-white dividing line in such a matter can ONLY be set subjectively. 

Catholics called the original Lutherans non-Christians in part because they had this new book that was written in German instead of Latin... were the Catholics right?  If they weren't right, how is your argument any different?  It's only different in degrees and semantics, but the argument is the same in nature: wholey dependent upon the arguer.  There is no objective scientific metric for determining what is Christian "enough" to be called Christian.  Theological, yes. Philosophical, yes. Subjective, yes. Scientific and objective, not during anyone's lifetime.  You setting that line, in your own mind, due to how you INTERPERET  ink on a page into words, sentences, concepts, for yourself is fine.  But recognize that it is subjective because you can not provide tangible real-world evidence that your unique interpretation is identical to others, let alone correct.  Not without cracking your skull open and plugging your brain into some concept-comparison machine to be evaluated against another's interpretation.  If that line is not set in the same place by others, viewing the same "data," then some subjectivity is involved because that's what the word subjective means.

Given that it is the journalists' supposed duty to maintain objectivity, they should pass no such judgement off as "fact."

Khyris

What if we define our terms?  The historic Christian faith has certain beliefs that are affirmed by believers.  One such affirmation would be the Nicene Creed.  I would say that someone who affirms those beliefs held by the Christian community for the past two millenia self-identify as Christian.  Those who do not affirm the beliefs held by the Christian community for the past two millenia self-identify as not Christian.

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.  

Really, I'm not trying to

Really, I'm not trying to be combative...

There's nothing wrong with how anyone chooses to define the word Christian as far as I'm concerned.  Adherence to the Nicene Creed is as good as any...

but it does say in it:

"And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church."

Subjectively, any Catholic may interpret that to mean that a non-Catholic is non-Christian, whereas a protestant may interpret that to mean that all Christians (of any denomination) are within one Church of God.  Heck, they DID interpret it that way when Marin Luther was excommunicated.

Also, consider that the very choice itself to use the Nicene Creed as THE litmus is a subjective choice.

I've got no problem with people having subjective opinions, or making subjective decisions.... 99% of them have to be, as we are all opinionated people and not robots.  I ask only that they recognize them as such.  I have subjective philosophical ideas all the time.  Subjectivity isn't a dirty word, except when journalists are SUPPOSED to strive for objectivity.

I'm really not trying to argue that Mormons are or are not Christians...  I'm just trying to help people see the unavoidable inherent subjectivity in religious subject matter.

No worries Khyris

holy--set apart

catholic--universal

apostolic--based on teachings of those 12 chosen of God

yes there must be some point at which we define (and that can be subjective) it's why i was careful to phrase it as those beliefs affirmed by........

I didn't subjectively choose this test it can be demonstated over the course of history as the creed agreed upon by the majority of those identifing as Christian.

We can find subjectivity in all subject matter.

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.  

Spot on, and I agree with

Spot on, and I agree with almost everything you've presented.

In addition to holy, catholic and apostolic, though; it does also say "one," which subjectively, I found to be the most relevent word for the example at hand.  Lol, it is ironic that subjectively we each put such different priorites on the words of such a short sentence.

You are right, there must be some point at which we define, or all words lose all meaning.  But "they" have a nasty habit of having their own definitions.  It is only through our subjectivity on a matter outside the realm of physical observation that we view our definitions as correct and theirs as false.  We must realize that in matters of faith, we can only define for ourselves.  What is "good?"  What is "true evil?"

Please don't misunderstand me, the Nicene Creed is an excellent and informed choice for a litmus.  I agree wholeheartedly it is as apt if not moreso than any other.

In the era of Martin Luther, Protestants believed they followed it and were Christians... yet Catholics did not believe Protestants followed it... so how can they both be right, if we suppose as you do, that the use of the Nicene Creed as a litmus is not subjective?  Or was one of them objectively wrong?  Even if we decide one was wrong... how can we hope to claim objectivity in that verdict?

It stands to reason, that either

A) Catholics are not Christians

B) Protestants are not Christians

C)The Nicene Creed was/is subjective

I am totally open to a D) if you can think of one...

the meaning of words:)

things that significantly vary the meaning of the same words you say and hear day after day:

Your family history, your personality type, the town, state, region, and country you grew up in, your schooling, what you watch on tv, the sports you play, the hobbies you have, your friends, your spouse, your kids, all of the above regarding them, what you ate today, what you ate yesterday, whether it was cloudy today or not, raining or not, snowing or not, whether your sick today or not, whether your tired or wide awake, happy or sad, comfy or irritated, male or female, young or old, the color of your hair, and skin, your shoe size, the time of day, the day of the week, the day of the month, the year, the decade, the century - just to scratch the surface and name a select few... 

so while we're still WAITING just to progress to THE DARK AGES when it comes to communication...

...lets all try to explain God with our ability to make fire and our basic cutting tools:)

D)

there were other issues that caused the division

Papal Authority

Trans-substantiation

Indulgences

Puguratory

Sola-gratis  Sola-fideas  Sola-scriptora (re-hash papal authority)

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.  

that is the point is it

that is the point is it not? You claim that one has to believe in the Nicene Creed to be a Christian, I do not...I simply hold the belief one must be a follower of Christ to be a Christian...which holds in the general sense of the word. Who is correct, who gets to be the judge on who isn't Christian and who is? A reporter? Like I said she knew she was busted which is why she backed peddled. It would of been factual to say "Some view Mormons as non-Christians, however, Mormons see themselves as Christian" And that is what she should of said.

As far as who is the judge, the answer is the person and God. Because even a faithful church goer can be a someone who Christ will not recognize on judgement day.

I can safely say Muslims are not Christian, because even though they believe Christ exist, they don't see him as divine ( in general...there are closet muslim christians who fear their life ). They aren't followers of Christ, nor do they claim to be. On the other hand I consider myself a Christian, and consider it to be highly arrogant to hear someone tell me what I believe.

that is the point

is it not?  Yes to a point.  What has been the historical majority view?  Are you saying the majority of Christians who have affirmed the Nicene Creed for 1700 years are wrong?  (that is possible)  How else would we define our terms? 

Has someone in this thread told you what you believe? 

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.  

Well, here's an interesting

Well, here's an interesting question for both of you...

Can you think of reasons why Mormons do, or do not fit the Nicene Creed?

Interesting Question....

But I suspect you ought to take it over to the Forums...

Thx.  :)

David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive

 

A substantive question deserves a substantive answer (or two)

Using the above reference to the Nicene Creed thusly, and like so:

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

Mormonism defines "God" as someone who used to be a fellow on another planet (paging L. Ron Hubbard), someone who followed his deity's teachings closely enough to achieve godhood.  The god of Mormonism is not the Creator of the universe--or much of anything except lots of "spirit children" by his goddess wife.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God.

Mormonism believes Jesus to be a created being,

Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father,

a separate being from the "Father" god of Mormonism, 

by whom all things were made.

who had no part in the process of creation, since they believe him to be a created being, a "spirit brother" to Satan. 

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man;

Mormonism believes Jesus to have been incarnated as a result of intercourse (fornication, since the two were not married) between the "Father" god of Mormonism and Mary. 

Hope that information helps.

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

Well who likes to pretend

Well who likes to pretend to know all about my religion and doesn't know anything at all. Its amazing to me on how many experts there are on anti-mormon half truths and full on lies.

And how many Mormons who post on NB post anti garbage on Catholics, Baptists, Jews, etc? None. Yet on top of having to defend my religion constantly, I have also defended Catholics, Baptists, and Jews ( oh though more so Catholics, because some "Christians" don't see them as Christian either...go figure ).

If you want to know what I believe here is a link

http://www.lds.org/p....

Maybe instead of feeling the need to tear down my religion so that somehow you look better, you should focus on your own religion.

Who's tearing anything down?

Certainly not me.  But though you deflect, let me ask even more directly: Are the differences I cited correct or incorrect?  And if they're incorrect, why are they incorrect?

Oh, and for the record, your LDS website answers exactly none of the references from the above-quoted portion of the Nicene Creed.  Why did you reference it, since it isn't germane to the conversation?

--Mike

www.thebrattonreport.com

 

that link is a resource that

that link is a resource that should answer any questions you may have. you aren't worth my time or effort, nor anyone else's to go through piece by piece and how you are wrong. I'm not going to change your mind...my original point was you like to pretend you know all about my religion...and maybe you should apply the golden rule...that is you wouldn't want me to go all anti whatever religion you are right? Especially if I started claiming things that aren't true.

"Has someone in this thread

"Has someone in this thread told you what you believe? "

not sure what you are trying to imply with this botg.

"Are you saying the majority of Christians..."

are you saying that doctrine can be voted on? Are you saying that all Christian churches are the same as yours? Or do you hold that your church is true and all the others are wrong? The difference is, I don't go on political boards and post anti-Catholic, or anti-any religion. I don't tell others what you believe, especially in a hostile manner.

Indeed CV

there are those who do that (tell you what you believe), you were expressing that others did that in a post in answer to my post.  So i take by this latest post you were commenting on a behavior which has been exhibited here all too often in the past.  So i agree with you on that.

I believe that doctrine is something agreed upon by the members and historically the Nicene Creed has been agreed upon as composing essential christian doctrine by the majority of the Church.  Now it is okay to dis-agree, just as i hold my beliefs as being true, you are free to hold yours.  I do not think our beliefs are the same in this matter.  I could be wrong.  In the end God will judge.

Supreme Court,  National Security,  Borders,  Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.  

God is a bigot? Looks like it:)...

big·ot (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[French, from Old French.]
Word History: Bigots may have more in common with God than one might think. Legend has it that Rollo, the first duke of Normandy, refused to kiss the foot of the French king Charles III, uttering the phrase bi got, his borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression by God. Although this story is almost surely apocryphal, it is true that bigot was used by the French as a term of abuse for the Normans, but not in a religious sense. Later, however, the word, or very possibly a homonym, was used abusively in French for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay sisterhood. From the 15th century on Old French bigot meant "an excessively devoted or hypocritical person." Bigot is first recorded in English in 1598 with the sense "a superstitious hypocrite."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bigot

Cox and Udderman

What a pair sweet Ann Marie and Keith Udderman make. She is a twit and he is a certified loon. Time, like the NYT is becoming more and more irrelevant because of its hard-left tilt and MSNBC isn't even on the ratings radar, so no one ever hears Udderman's maniacal rants. (If a crazy man babbles in the forest and nobody hears him, does he actually make a noise?) It is hilarious how seriously he takes himself.

Maybe he should go on Letterman and they both could have a real cerebral conversation about how terrible conservatives are and how meaningful their insights are. 

As if these two

As if these two jackasses actually know what a Christian is and isn't? Olbermann's a communist and Cox's just a bimbo! Lol.