Say goodbye to the Great Green Hope. Biofuels are on the endangered list, although the media in America won't tell you that. Reuters reported in its September 26 article that Jane Goodall, the internationally famous primate scientist and environmental icon who presented at Al Gore's Live Earth, added her criticism of vegetable-based biofuels to a growing list experts.
On Wednesday, Goodall, best known for her chimpanzee research and media appearances, said “on the sidelines” of the Clinton Global Initiative that growing crops for vehicle fuels is endangering rain forests in Asia, Africa and South America and adding to anthropogenic global warming (bold mine throughout):
We're cutting down forests now to grow sugarcane and palm oil for biofuels and our forests are being hacked into by so many interests that it makes them more and more important to save now.
If only Reuters had acknowledged the other scientific findings that show biofuels produce more greenhouse gases than oil and gasoline, as NewsBusters has documented. But at least Reuters noted Goodall's narrow criticism about destroying rain forests.
Green activists and agribusiness have promoted vegetable-based biofuels as a solution to global warming and alternative to pricey foreign oil, but many experts have listed problems with the product.
Because of the environmentalists' push for an alternative to the fossil fuels that they say cause AGW, many countries see economic opportunity and are quickly planting crops that can be turned into biofuels. Brazil and Indonesia are growing sugar cane for ethanol and palm oil for biodiesel.
Reuters explained the crux of the Goodall's displeasure:
The United Nations' climate program considers the fuels to be low in carbon because growing the crops takes in heat-trapping gas carbon dioxide.
But critics say demand for the fuels has led companies to cut down and burn forests in order to grow the crops, adding to heat-trapping emissions and leading to erosion and stress on ecosystems.
Reuters continued:
“Biofuel isn't the answer to everything; it depends where it comes from," she said. "All of this means better education on where fuels are coming from are needed."
Goodall said the problem is especially bad in the Indonesian rain forest where large amounts of palm nut oil is being made. Growers in Uganda -- where her nonprofit group works to conserve Great Apes -- are also looking to buy large parcels of rain forest and cut them down to grow sugar cane, while in Brazil, forest is cleared to grow sugar cane.
As with most in the American media, Reuters didn't explain the other problems with biofuels.
NewsBusters' Noel Sheppard pointed out that scientists such as Prof. Keith Smith of the University of Edinburgh found that “rapeseed and maize biodiesels were calculated to produce up to 70 percent and 50 percent more greenhouse gases respectively than fossil fuels.”
Not only that, but “biofuels released twice as much as nitrous oxide as previously realised” through the nitrogen in the fertilizer.
More damning, Dr. Dave Reay found that with those findings and “the US Senate aiming to increase maize ethanol production sevenfold by 2022, greenhouse gas emissions from transport will rise by 6 per cent.
Then there is the disruption in the world food supply, “surging food prices and the potential destruction of natural habits.”
It's a start that Reuters and Yahoo ran the article in the US. It looks like the anti-biofuel information blackout is cracking.
Lynn is a contributor for NewsBusters and can be reached at tvisgoodforyou2 AT yahoo DOT com















Editor at Large
Comments Policy
why isn't someone pointing out the great stooopidity
September 28, 2007 - 08:55 ET by lunaticcringeradiobiofuels, like mtbe, the kyoto treaty, gun control, raised taxes,
and how many other knee jerk non thinking reactionary steps are proof
of how liberals make decisions based on emotions and not thinking
things through with facts and reason. this is a story that we as
individuals need to push, since the media will ignore it, as another
example of liberal incompetence to make an informed decision that we
all have to suffer.
i want to hear from that scarecrow sheryl crow, because she's got that big
caravan of tour buses filled with folks with cranky ass for using only
one sheet of toilet paper, i want her wonderful insight on this now.
because obviously she had all the answers when she was pushing this
agenda only a few weeks ago. now that this topic is proving to be a lie
where is she. why isn't she speaking about this? oooooooohhh yeah i
forgot, liberals aren't held accountable like conservatives are for
their words and actions.
lunaticcringeradio
also if
sheryl crow enforces a biofuels tour, i want to see the accountability
report on the one sheet of toilet paper rule she is enforcing on her
crew also. i know it has to exist because she expected the rest of
america to follow her recommendation so i know she's setting the finest
example and it will be reenforced with accountability reports.
fact
did you know that we could curb greenhouse gases significantly enough
to completely reverse global warming in a matter of days if liberals
and socialist were to hold their breathe for 10 minutes each day. that
is if global warming really existed.
it's a quick and easy solution that i'm sure they can get behind.
Other than riding around in
September 28, 2007 - 09:23 ET by danboOther than riding around in the bio bus for publicity. I thought she only used it to get to private jets.
"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT
For a side so convinced of
September 28, 2007 - 09:05 ET by Hero SquadFor a side so convinced of their "consensus" status, there sure seems to be a lot of disputing going on in the AGW camp.
*****
"I heart famous people."
Who will be The Church Of
September 28, 2007 - 09:55 ET by drillanwrWho will be The Church Of Global Warming's Martin Luther, and split from the church to build their own GW church and doctrine?
Everyday, it seems, this whole GW cult movement is being shown for the sham and scam it is.
I suppose Ms Goodall will
September 28, 2007 - 09:09 ET by dscottI suppose Ms Goodall will become persona non grata in the green world for this most inconvenient revelation. On hopes this will redirect money to more promising options such as conversion of sewage into biodiesel. http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html , A NZ company is doing this http://www.ecosherpa.com/green-energy/algae-biofuel-from-sewage/
When you feel you have to walk on eggshells to avoid problems with the MSM you are being codependent, the cure is to stomp on the eggshells
I am really getting confused
September 28, 2007 - 09:14 ET by msh1973I am really getting confused by the enviromentalist...what do they want? Oil, coal bad, now biofuels bad. Someone please tell me what these people want. (tongue in cheek)
What they want? You and me
September 28, 2007 - 09:27 ET by danboWhat they want? You and me to walk or ride bikes as they ride by in their limos. That way they feel they're saving the world from their own crimes.
"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT
the proof in that is
September 28, 2007 - 09:59 ET by lunaticcringeradiothis silly scheme of buying carbon offsets. if the global warmists
actually cared about
the environment they wouldn't be doing things to cause carbon
emmissions in the first place and thereby paying expensive carbon
offset fees. that is the proof of the hipocracy in this scam. they
don't really care, they care about making you miserible and guilty like
they feel.
if they really cared
about the environment they would also be pushing the big polluters of the
world like china instead of exempting them and making excuses for them.
global warming environmentalists are frauds.
lunaticcringeradio
if they really cared about
September 28, 2007 - 10:13 ET by drillanwrif they really cared about the environment they would also be pushing the big polluters of the world like china instead of exempting them and making excuses for them.
This shows one of the basic major flaws in the whole GW movement ... Countries, such as China and India, are "exempt" because they are considered "developing" countries (although, as I have stated before, countries with enough nukes to push the world into REAL global warming via their nukes ... and I don't care about the whole indoor plumbing thing ... just because a country's priorities are screwed up does not make them of developing status) ... Anyhow, if these countries really ARE developing, the pressure on them to make the adjustments during their supposed developing stages should be done NOW ... NOT EXEMPT them! ... where as, what is being asked of industrially established countries have to make such conversions at great economic cost.
But then, the GW Cult's strong point, if any, has NEVER been common sense ... Instead of carbon offsets/credits these people should be buying common sense offsets/credits ...
danbo, Won't
September 28, 2007 - 10:05 ET by msh1973danbo,
Won't that conflict with their jetset lifestyle?
they want to knock america down
September 28, 2007 - 09:53 ET by lunaticcringeradiothe global warmists are socialist, being socialists they hate
capitolism, america is the shining example of capitolism that shows
that socialism sucks, so the socialists employ useful idiots such as
popular celebrities that make decisions based on emotion to sell this
pakage of global warming(socialism) that is designed to take america
down economicly. environmentalism, global warming, are all just
different wrappers on the same old package of socialism. the true
believers which are just plain idiots(see the self hating guilt ridden
white guys who don't bathe and have dread locks who are "in touch man"
at any local college) they want us all to covert to a basket weaving
society and we all live eat and sleep in a great commune as we all farm
and love each other and mother earth as we only bathe once a week and
women don't shave their legs. because anything less than that you just
want to destroy and oppress everything and everyone on the planet. that
is straight from a true believer telling me this crap this week as he
griped at me for taking a week to get down to tucson and fix the ac on
his dorm at the university in tucson. i actually added the once a week
bathing and women not shaving their legs part.
one thing though i don't believe farming communes have ac, you have to sweat it out.
lunaticcringeradio
Ya gotta love it. The fraud
September 28, 2007 - 09:29 ET by danboYa gotta love it. The fraud is falling apart.
"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT
bio fuels
September 28, 2007 - 09:50 ET by WR JonasTo New The answer to your question is
, fairyfarts and moonbeams. Liberals only feel they don't know anything.
Carbon offsets are a big joke
September 28, 2007 - 11:00 ET by tpmintxDown here in Texas, we all know that carbon offsets are a great big joke. In fact, there are groups in Texas who are selling carbon offsets because they need to use CO2 in the production of hydrocarbons! This means that the green weenies are helping to fund the hated OIL INDUSTRY!
Irony is a wonderful thing.
If the green weenies really and truly cared about the environment, they would be out there protesting and pushing for a resumption of nuclear power plant construction in the US. What is cleaner than a zero-emission power plant?
There are 2 different constituencies that want to see the USA return to the stone age. The Enviro-wackos, and al-Queada. As far as I am concerned, both groups should get the same treatment.
The best "carbon offset" joke
September 28, 2007 - 11:15 ET by RJis the t-shirt advertised on eBay:
"Will trade carbon offset credits for sex"
This means that instead of getting scr*wed for carbon credits, you can get scr*wed for carbon credits.
;^>
Don't you just love the law of unintended consequences?
September 28, 2007 - 11:26 ET by Dave in TexasIn addition to rainforests being plowed under for biofuels, the tree-huggers have another problem to worry about that may be 100 times more horrific. It's actually causing Europeans to think like capitalists: Set aside suspended by European Union
"European Union agriculture ministers have today suspended a controversial Brussels subsidy that pays farmers for not growing anything in an attempt to bring down soaring wheat prices."
Oh mercy. Now the farmers might be plowing over the natural habitat of the red speckled fever mosquito. :)
Oh the irony! The Rocky
September 28, 2007 - 11:38 ET by wiwfOh the irony!
The Rocky Mountain Collegian: Illustrating Idiocy
The Biofuels Scam
September 28, 2007 - 11:43 ET by PopularTech"There is no sound public policy reason for mandating the use of ethanol.” - Hillary Clinton, 2002
Alternative Fuels Comparison Chart (PDF) (Popular Mechanics)
Biofuels could lead to mass hunger deaths: U.N. envoy (Reuters)
Carbon Mitigation by Biofuels or by Saving and Restoring Forests? (Science)
QUOTE (Science)
The carbon sequestered by restoring forests is greater than the emissions avoided by the use of the liquid biofuels.
Ethanol And Biodiesel From Crops Not Worth The Energy (Science Daily)
QUOTE (Science Daily)
Turning plants such as corn, soybeans and sunflowers into fuel uses much more
energy than the resulting ethanol or biodiesel generates, according to
a new Cornell University and University of California-Berkeley study.
Fuel Comparison Chart (Community Fuels)
QUOTE
Diesel = 128,000-130,000 BTUs, Gasoline = 109,000-125,000 BTUs, Ethanol = 80,000 BTUs
OECD warns against biofuels subsidies (Financial Times, UK)
Rapeseed biofuel ‘produces more greenhouse gas than oil or petrol’ (Times Online, UK)
Top scientist says biofuels are scam (Times Online, UK)
Biodiesel - Biodiesel Won't Drive Down Global Warming (Science Daily)
QUOTE (Science Daily)
EU legislation to promote the uptake of biodiesel will not make any
difference to global warming, and could potentially result in greater
emissions of greenhouse gases than from conventional petroleum derived
diesel.
Biodiesel - Orang-utans home destroyed for bio-diesel (Telegraph.co.uk)
Ethanol - Myth: Corn Ethanol is Great (Video) (5min)
Ethanol - Clearing the air on ethanol (Environmental Science and Technology)
QUOTE (Environmental Science and Technology)
New research predicts that E85 vehicle emissions could cause just as many deaths as gasoline, or more.
Ethanol - Ethanol: Myths and Realities (BusinessWeek)
QUOTE (BusinessWeek)
Ethanol can't travel in pipelines along with gasoline, because it picks up
excess water and impurities. Also, ethanol contains less energy than
gas. That means drivers have to make more frequent trips to the pump.
Ethanol - Fuel Ethanol Cannot Alleviate U.S. Dependence On Petroleum (Science Daily)
Ethanol - Study: Ethanol Won't Solve Energy Problems (USAToday)
QUOTE (USAToday)
Ethanol is far from a cure-all for the nation's energy problems. It's not as
environmentally friendly as some supporters claim and would supply only
12 percent of U.S. motoring fuel even if every acre of corn were used.
Ethanol - Test results: E85 vs. gasoline (Consumer Reports)
Ethanol - The ethanol myth (Consumer Reports)
QUOTE (Consumer Reports)
E85, which is 85 percent ethanol, provides fewer miles per gallon, costs more, and is hard to find outside the Midwest.
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
Seinfeld moment
September 28, 2007 - 12:14 ET by Hero SquadHave you no heart? When you show the liberalati how the sausage is made, you're taking away their right to "feel" like they're making a difference.
Relatable "Seinfeld" moment from "The Non-Fat Yogurt":
Just make the subject "biofuels."
*****
"I heart famous people."
Popular Tech Q...
September 28, 2007 - 12:22 ET by Clear thinkerI have had a problem with the corn idea for a long time. Would Kudzu work?
Just curious.
Get Email updates from Fred http://socialnet.imwithfred.com/email_alert_july_26.html
Kudzu wouldn't work
September 28, 2007 - 12:44 ET by RJHow can they subsidize something that grows, prolifically, all by itself?
LOL, good point! Get
September 28, 2007 - 12:46 ET by Clear thinkerLOL, good point!
Get Email updates from Fred http://socialnet.imwithfred.com/email_alert_july_26.html
I actually saw The Food
September 28, 2007 - 12:54 ET by drillanwrI actually saw The Food Network's Alton Brown eat kudzu on his show where he travels across the nation sampling regional dishes.
He and his crew were on motorcycles and had pulled off the side of the road, in Georgia I think, and made a salad of sorts out of the stuff.
Now, having a sister living in Georgia, I have seen the infamous kudzu ... (sort of reminds me of Stephen King's story in the Twilight Zone movie of several years ago ... just look it up) Kudzu shows NO MERCY to whatever it creeps and crawls onto and completely overtakes ... trees, fences, utility poles, buildings hillsides ... So, if it really is edible why isn't it a common side dish in the South East like hush puppies???
It's alien flora, I tells ya!
You mean "Creepshow." His
September 28, 2007 - 15:49 ET by Hero SquadYou mean "Creepshow." His was the best segment of the four. "Aw, meteor s%#t!"
*****
"I heart famous people."
OMG! Yeah! Sorry. Got the
September 28, 2007 - 18:44 ET by drillanwrOMG! Yeah! Sorry. Got the two flicks mixed up. Creepshow also had the story of the college professor with the beast in a crate under the stairs that eventually got his big-boobed, loud-mouthed wife ... "Henry!"
Now that would be an
September 28, 2007 - 13:28 ET by danboNow that would be an ecological useful project.
Ask Auburn. Didn't they introduce it?
"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT
Not Sure
September 28, 2007 - 21:58 ET by PopularTechBut my problem is with Ethanol in general. The lower BTU rating means you will always get less mileage per gallon and thus it must be sold significantly cheaper then gas to make up for this. Even still the lower MPG will be a public relations nightmare to deal with.
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
I HATE ethanol.
September 28, 2007 - 22:28 ET by RJIt's subsidized, it's mandated, it's harmful in many ways to the environment, it makes lousy fuel, and it screws up the world food chain.
All in all, a politican's dream.
Every Report Quoted Above Traces to the Globalists
September 28, 2007 - 13:13 ET by Lame CherryEvery report above traces exactly to the Globalists. The Orang issue was happening before bio fuels even were present, because poor people were cutting down trees to survive. It only became bio fuels when the banking oil cartels started loosing their vampire death grip on oil profit monopoly funds.
I have addressed all of these issues "posted as fact" on this site in other areas and it is disgraceful how all of this is left up here without being refuted by Newsbusters.
*HIC IACET ARTORIVS REX QVONDAM REXQVE FVTVRVS
Yeah ok
September 28, 2007 - 23:30 ET by PopularTechSo now Consumer Reports, Science Daily, Reuters and USA Today are all part of the "Globalists"?
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
More Lies Posted Here
September 28, 2007 - 13:08 ET by Lame CherryThe problem with the above is not just Jane Goodall lying, because her focus is protecting JUNGLES AS THAT IS WHERE HER MONEY TRAIN MONOPOLY IS WITH PRIMATES........but with the comments posted here and others like this Dr. Reay which is left as fact when he is lying.
FOR THE RECORD, there is not any way emissions from transportation can rise 6 percent from bio fuels BECAUSE THE CORN AND BEANS have to be transported for livestock or refined processing in the first place. If one adds the palm and sugar cane transport, they are more than offset BECAUSE TREES PRODUCE MORE "polluting" gases than agriculture does.
Next, ships burn huge amounts of diesel transporting oil along with the burn off of refineries of propane. Dr. Reay is lying through his teeth in his "figures" as they are just as bogus as Roger Hedgecock and Rush Limbaugh's figures on bio fuels "which are from the oil industry and actually factor in the costs of production for drilling oil in the middle east to run tractors".
The family farmers who are spread from Asia to America are producing a renewable product. No bio fuels are not the answer for world fuel needs, but they are a means of stretching that fuel so wars do not arise and forcing up prices so Iran will be bankrupt as well as China who are anti American.
None of the editors posting here have apparently no idea of the market value for Americans this is stimulating. Poverty states like South Dakota, Nebraska etc... are now having jobs created from products they only had pennies before in. FOR THE RECORD, farmers and ranchers SPEND MONEY THEY MAKE. They always do as they need tax deductions in being a business and they have always invested in their communities.
WHAT THIS MEANS TO NEWSBUSTERS and those complaining here is simple:
A farmer buys local goods which are imported from your states. This fuels the local economies which causes a rise in purchasing appliances, wood for new homes, cars etc... The transportation people then have jobs and so do the service sectors all across America.
The money is no longer flowing out of the United States but turning over in the United States creating wealth. THAT IS A GOOD THING.
It is one thing for a communist earth hugger like Goodall to spew this stuff, but I have yet to see one economist nor editor here start explaining what bio fuels actually do and how it will drive the American economy FOR ALL AMERICANS and not just the select bankers. Warren Buffet or Bill Gates.
I will ask Newsbusters once again to explain this or at least get informed on the Franklin economics this promotes. Just because wacko environmentalist are for bio fuels does not make it something to attack, because the oil industry and the cartel bankers are spreading the propaganda that Newsbusters is biting into.
OH AND I SUGGEST NEWSBUSTERS start checking out if bio fuels are so "bad" as the oil industry cartels and bankers are telling us........WHY IS IT THEY HAVE STARTED on the sly buying up bio fuel plants??????
The reason it is "bad" is they are monopoly controls of energy and it will be "good" when they drive out the private owners and can rape Americans again in fuel prices.
Newsbusters can check to how the oil and banking industry are deliberately driving up ethanol prices in California, Illinois etc... to make consumers believe it is more expensive "using the shipping" excuse which you notice Reay was chiming in on in lying to people.
This site usually does quite well, but in this issue it has the most uninformed and people posting repeating absolute lies.
Ask yourself why is it global greenists who are supported by banking oil cartels who support communism are the only ones against this?
Follow the money....even into conservative camps and you soon find book deals from the cartels and ad rates from the cartels all spreading the influence which spreads the lies.
*HIC IACET ARTORIVS REX QVONDAM REXQVE FVTVRVS
Reality
September 28, 2007 - 22:26 ET by PopularTechWhat is the BTU rating of Ethanol?
Can Ethanol be transported in Pipe-lines?
How much of our oil use can be substituted by Ethanol?
Are you seriously trying to sell these comments:
"TREES PRODUCE MORE "polluting" gases than agriculture does."
"FOR ALL AMERICANS and not just the select bankers. Warren Buffet or Bill Gates."
"...they are monopoly controls of energy..."
You do realize that pricing is controlled by supply and demand if no one wanted to buy oil or gas prices would go down. If gas prices went up enough on there own competition would jump in to take advantage and if they went up high enough Ethanol would become viable without government intervention. Ethanol currently has to be subsidized because its BTU rating (MPG) means it needs to be sold much cheaper then gas to compete.
Give me a break - Oil Prices (Video) (5min) (John Stossel, 20/20)
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
Interesting but shallow - shall we embargo Indonesia?
September 29, 2007 - 11:06 ET by BlindSightThis might be a new story for you and your readers, but it`s not. A Google search for biofuel and tropical forest turns up 631,000 results, many by enviro groups - and one of the hacks at Planet Gore just took a whack at this last month, based on this story in the Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.... Perhaps it`s been uncovered in the US - but in any case, it involves a number of important issues, so you do everyone a favor by bringing it more attention.
My take on this - the developing world is a mess, to which both indigenous growth and demand from Western markets have contributed by providing incentives to further strip out resources that are not effectively owned (either by natives who cannot protect their traditional rights, or by governments, which are unwilling to protect these resources from exploitation by kleptocratic elites). It has long been well-known that corruption and lack of private property rights (backed by "states" that have been determined to benefit one ethnic group at the expense of others) are the true hindrances to development of wealth.
And you and others want to blame environmentalists for the lack of property rights in the third world? Or do you want to blame them and the EU governments for not being more paternalistic, by refusing to accept biofuels from tropical countries? So that means you are IN FAVOR of the US protectionism that puts high tariffs on Brazilian ethanol?
While no doubt new EU measures that mandate greater use of biofuels will help increase the demand for palm oil, you missed the most fundamental point - to protect a resource, it needs to have an owner whose property rights are enforceable.
You might not have perceived this, but you have in a perverse sense adopted the enviros` traditional position - that the reason why environmental destruction occurs is not because of lack of effective ownership of the resource, but simply because of demand from the capitalist countries, in which case the answer isn't to improve and enforce property rights in developing countries, the oceans or what have you
(the free market enviro position), but to save the resources that we value - like tropical forests - by "reforming capitalism" or tampering with demand in or supply to the market economies.
Like many enviros, the implication from your piece is that the best way to protect the environment in developing economies is to beggar them and make sure there is no international demand for their products.
The real solution to solving problems in the developing world has to be on stopping the kleptocracy by elites in the guise of governments by protecting traditional and private property rights.
And just how interested are you in addressing THAT problem, rather than simply bashing enviros and the press?
Sincerely, 20/20
"I do not know what is true. ... But in the midst of doubt ... I do not doubt that the faith is true and adorable which leads a soldier to throw away his life in obedience to a blindly accepted duty."
- Oliver Wendel Holmes, Jr.
More 20/200 BS from BS
September 29, 2007 - 13:31 ET by RJWe've actually discussed this a number of times, but you must be too blinded by your own self-adoring narcissism to realize it. "I'm a liberal and I'm smarter than you, so I don't have to have facts....my feelings are good enough."
"My take on this - the developing world is a mess..."...because of....wait for it...demand from the capitalist countries. Surprise! But it's not surprising that the rest of your post is more of the same trite and simplistic big-government socialism BS that you people think passes for deep thought.
For example: yes, demand IS the primary problem with biofuels. And where does that demand come from? Mandating it's use due to feel-good environmentalism. So, we have a problem created by enviros that you want to "fix" with socialism and more government intervention.
See, Mr 20/200, the REAL problem is that ethanol is harmful to the environment in many ways, makes a lousy fuel, and is only able to maintain a place in the market because it's subsidized and mandated.
In other words, it's just another example of dumb leftist "feel good activism" creating a problem and then trying to fix it politically.
RJ, so property rights and free markets are BS?
September 30, 2007 - 01:40 ET by BlindSightOr do you simply have trouble reading with your neocon glasses on?
As I`ve made clear, the absence of property rights in developing countries IS the real problem.
It is beyond irony that you`d rather focus on my further contention that this problem is compounded by Western demand and say that this is the "same trite and simplistic big-government socialism BS that you people think passes for deep thought" while IN YOUR VERY NEXT BREATH you AGREE that "yes, demand IS the primary problem with biofuels"! (Except of course it is not the primary problem, but the most prominent secondary aspect.)
But - assuming you and others care about the loss of tropical forests (you enviros!) - we can`t solve that by beggaring third world countries by telling them that they have no rights to them cut them down in order to produce things to sell us, or by telling them that we will embargo their products - which is the implicit message in this thread.
That is not MY message, but the message of those who say the answer is not to focus on property rights problems in the third world, but on tamping down domestic demand - which can easily be done, either by removing our ridiculous subsidies to ethanol or by embargoing biofuels from tropical nations. While the first I wholeheartedly support, the latter would be more pork barrel for domestic corporates.
So yes, enviros deserve some grief for pushing for government mandates for biofuels (but don`t forget to blame ADM and others as well), but enviros are NOT reponsible for creating kleptocracies in the third world - kleptocracies that continue to be fueled by the demands of domestic and international markets for goods produced from resources that have no effective private owners.
By the way, Brazilians and others have been producing ethanol for years, wihout any interference or subsidies from the West. And can you show me the big Western purchases of tropical biofuels so far, or our investments that are stripping out tropical forests?
By the way, these last three paragraphs I agree with wholly. As someone just said, "you must be too blinded by your own self-adoring narcissism to realize it." It`s the same blinding narcissism that makes you think that those who have a slightly different view from you must be self-adoring, narcissistic (but do I repeat myself?) liberals.
Perhaps the problem, RJ, is that you simply can`t stand it when you agree with me. That`s why you`re so disagreeable and too blinded to see.
More BS from a "liberal" paleocon
"I do not know what is true. ... But in the midst of doubt ... I do not doubt that the faith is true and adorable which leads a soldier to throw away his life in obedience to a blindly accepted duty."
- Oliver Wendel Holmes, Jr.
No, BS, I don't "agree with you"
September 30, 2007 - 12:48 ET by RJIn spite of your narcissistic view that you are enlightening the rest of us, your post is a "Johnny come lately" to the ethanol problems that we've been discussing here for some time. That makes you in partial agreement with us. Glad to see it.
However, you seem unable to grasp what I said. Read this as often as necessary to understand it: The PRIMARY problem is the false "demand" created by enviros. If it weren't for subsidies and mandates, there would be no "demand" to begin with. Your "property rights" argument is just something socialists are trying to piggy-back onto that. (read and re-read until you understand)
The solution for this specific problem is to remove the subsidies and the mandates, not impose some kind of "World Court" property rights reform, which will do NOTHING to resolve the environmental problems created by the phony demand for ethanol.
I love it that you claim to agree with me saying: "In other words, it's just another example of dumb leftist "feel good activism" creating a problem and then trying to fix it politically." ...but that you want to fix it politically.
If you want to pursue your socialistic ideals, go ahead but at least be honest enough to admit that you're just trying to use this as another "reason" for doing so.
Finally..."embargo?" Please point out to me where I or anyone else here wants to embargo anyone over this. You're the only one I can see discussing that. It's just another dishonest BS attempt to put words in the mouths of NBers.
As for the US embargo of Brazil's ethanol, it wasn't done for environmental reasons, but to avoid competition and to "encourage" more US ethanol producers to get on the ethanol money train.
Do a little research, BTW, and you'll see that Brazil isn't the ethanol success story the enviros make it out to be....for just ONE example, they've been burning their oceans and oceans of cane fields every year, which has produced more pollution than their ethanol saves.
RJ is an astute (if narcissistic) reader
October 1, 2007 - 00:23 ET by BlindSight- That's why it isn't good enough that I agree that Western governments should not be subsidizing or creating mandates for biofuels - since he has concluded on some mysterious basis that I must have and be pursuing "socialistic ideals".
- That's why he thinks that when I say that the real problem with tropical deforestation is a lack of clear and enfoceable property rights in the forests themselves (my first post: "the most fundamental point - to protect a resource, it needs to have an owner whose property rights are enforceable"), I must have "socialistic ideals" - since he has astutely concluded that socialists are more concerned about property rights than capitalists!
- That's why he jumps to the conclusion that, even if we remove the subsidies and the mandates for ethanol, my pointing out that problems relating to tropical forest destruction will persist due to the lack of clear and enforceable property rights in the third world MUST be part of an agenda to "impose some kind of "World Court" property rights reform". And just as clearly, the US Business Roundtable and others who point to the kleptocractic nature of third world governments and lack of property rights infrastructure as the key problem with underdevelopment and environmental mismanagement must all be socialists yearning for world government.
- That's why he asserts without substantiation that "PRIMARY problem is the false "demand" created by enviros" and wants to ignore other key influences on whether tropical forests get destroyed - such as whether anyone effectively owns the forests before they are destroyed (and why he assumes that recent ethanol mandates in the US and EU have been driving tropical deforestation up to now).
- That's why he asserts that demand-side changes in the West are the ONLY solutions, and when I note that other demand-side remedies such as import restrictions and tariffs may also be likely (in fact, already in place) - and implicity called for (Lynn quotes with approval Goodall saying "Biofuel isn't the answer to everything; it depends where it comes from") - he says that I'm the "only one I can see discussing that. It's just another dishonest BS attempt to put words in the mouths of NBers."
- That's why when I point to ADM or the other corporate welfare queens who actually profit from these programs - and are the ones who lie behind the high tariffs on Brazilian ethanol (and foreign sugar) - he continues to focus his blame on artificial demand created by "enviros", even as he later repeats, without noting my earlier agreement, that our anti-import measures for ethanol have been implemented "to avoid competition and to "encourage" more US ethanol producers to get on the ethanol money train".
- That's why he considers my willingness to present the flip side of the coin by talking about property rights - despite his hostility - must be a result of a "narcissistic view that [I am] enlightening the rest of us" (as it goes without saying that I simply could NOT have a useful point worth mentioning or discussing).
- That's why he assumes I don't have any clue that "Brazil isn't the ethanol success story the enviros make it out to be".
Guys like RJ are just too astute for me - they've already considered everything I might say, and they disagree with it even if they agree.
But because I'm a persistent cuss, I'll continue to post, just not in response to him. The unrelenting hostility interfers with my insidious socialist agenda.
Blinded by the light
"I do not know what is true. ... But in the midst of doubt ... I do not doubt that the faith is true and adorable which leads a soldier to throw away his life in obedience to a blindly accepted duty."
- Oliver Wendel Holmes, Jr.
Good to hear
October 1, 2007 - 07:37 ET by PopularTechSo you are:
1. Anti-Government Subsidies on BioFuels
2. Pro-Private Property Rights
3. Anti-Socialist
The problem with your posts is they are overly wordy and not clear on your points but then you state things that are contradictory:
You make this statement:
"And you and others want to blame environmentalists for the lack of property rights in the third world?"
This is a contradiction. If you can please show me the links to where environmentalists are endorsing private property rights I am interested in reading it. All the environmentalists I have read and talked to endorse bigger government property protection and government ownership as the only way to save the environment.
"You might not have perceived this, but you have in a perverse sense adopted the enviros` traditional position - that the reason why environmental destruction occurs is not because of lack of effective ownership of the resource, but simply because of demand from the capitalist countries, in which case the answer isn't to improve and enforce property rights in developing countries, the oceans or what have you (the free market enviro position), but to save the resources that we value - like tropical forests - by "reforming capitalism" or tampering with demand in or supply to the market economies."
No one has adopted the position here to "reform capitalism". You created a strawman to push your point. Reforming capitalism is a socialist/communist ideal. You could have simply presented your point as your solution is to promote private property rights instead of implying that we are not and instead adopting anti-capitalistic ideals. Which is nonsense. Read this post. The only point made is the hypocrisy of the environmental movement of pushing Biofuels by ignoring their negative environmental effects. Then some come out like Jane Goodall saying exactly what we have been. Our question is what should we use?
"Like many enviros, the implication from your piece is that the best way to protect the environment in developing economies is to beggar them and make sure there is no international demand for their products."
None of this is implied in the NB post. You created a strawman. What are you reading? Please quote where this implication is made in this post?
You then end with this...
"The real solution to solving problems in the developing world has to be on stopping the kleptocracy by elites in the guise of governments by protecting traditional and private property rights.
And just how interested are you in addressing THAT problem, rather than simply bashing enviros and the press?"
No one is arguing AGAINST private property rights! No one even brought it up but you. Why not just offer this as a solution instead of dishonestly claiming it was implied when it was not?
I see the problem, you are unable to understand the context of the NB post and imply things that were never stated. NB clearly made the case why they bashed enviros and the press none of which has anything to do with your post. It is like you are reading some completely other post and commenting here.
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
It is not the reform of
October 1, 2007 - 09:41 ET by dscottIt is not the reform of Capitalism that is at issue here. In fact, it was government meddling (reform) in the form of sudisidies that got us into this particular situation. It is Socialism that needs to be reformed or more accurately, abolished. This is but one more proof of why subsidies need to be outlawed. A subsidy is nothing more than a government sponsored bribe to alter the behavior of a business or industry. If bribing a government offical is wrong, then the converse should also be wrong. If there is no underlying reason for a business or industry to engage in an activity, then in most (not all) instances there is no bonified sustainable reason to do it. People who push subsidies fail to understand that Capitalism is a self regulating system of economics. Whenever you interfere with the self regulating mechanism of supply and demand an adverse distortion of the market with negative consequences will occur.
When you feel you have to walk on eggshells to avoid problems with the MSM you are being codependent, the cure is to stomp on the eggshells
dscott, I agree. The government NEVER "knows best"
October 2, 2007 - 00:21 ET by BlindSightExcept I don't see subsidies so much as socialism as a sick dynamic that reflect both the ability of influential corporate insiders to pick the public pocket and the desire of government gatekeepers to strengthen their own positions by having more pork and influence to dispense.
The answer has to be to hack back government. Funny how that, and insistence on Constitutional government, appears to be on neither party's agenda.
"I do not know what is true. ... But in the midst of doubt ... I do not doubt that the faith is true and adorable which leads a soldier to throw away his life in obedience to a blindly accepted duty."
- Oliver Wendel Holmes, Jr.
PT, thanks for the straight comments
October 2, 2007 - 00:01 ET by BlindSightI agree that some of my posts are convoluted, but my first and second were rather direct. It doesn't help when the reflexive responses of others are hostile (knee-jerk assumptions of "socialism" and then bizzare accusations of narcissism) even when there is much common ground.
- 1,2 & 3: yes, yes, yes.
- The lack of property rights in the third world is the key cause of resource destruction there. "Free market enironmentalists" know this, as it is axiomatic. Property rights make the market and wealth-creating transactions possible, and where there is no clear or enforceable property right we have resource abuse, "tragedy of the commons" situations and/or theft. Terry Anderson at PERC (http://www.perc.org/) in Bozeman, Montana is now the leading figure in this movement, but there are plenty of others, largely on the conservative, libertarian, small-government right (see e.g. Roy Cordato: http://www.mises.org...).
- Lynn and others here like to bash enviros; even though I think many enviros deserve criticism for not understanding why environmental problems arise and for promting "solutions" that actually create more problems, the enviros themselves are not responsible for the underlying property rights failures of most problems - which is why I was trying to turn attention from enviro-bashing to the key problem. BTW, in the US, historically rent-seeking by powerful industry groups often got the ball started by seeking legislation when the common law supported those suffering damage to person or private property, and various citizens groups emerged as a political counterbalance. As a result, enviromental issues have too often been forced into politics where both sides fight over rules, rather than letting common law rules and practice evolve via private disputes and transactions.
- I said clearly that "reforming capitalism" or tampering with US markets in response to environmental problems abroad is a traditional enviro position. My follow-on point was that those anti-enviros who don't understand property rights end up sounding just like enviros, like the assertions on this thread: enviros are responsible for rain forest destruction because they have created domestic demand for biofuels that tropical countries are destryong their forests to produce. There may be something to this, but it's too facile, largely uninformed and fails to discern the real causes or the difficulties in addressing them.
- I concede that I may have overstated that the implication from Lynn's piece is that "the best way to protect the environment in developing economies is to beggar them and make sure there is no international demand for their products". But she and others here show no interest in real underlying causes and, like the enviros, simply assume that if we reduce demand from our markets the problem of tropical forest destruction will go away.
You are right - the NB post and other commenters here are clearly interested only in bashing enviros and the press. Is there no room for expressing how this is superficial and understanding other key dynamics?
"I do not know what is true. ... But in the midst of doubt ... I do not doubt that the faith is true and adorable which leads a soldier to throw away his life in obedience to a blindly accepted duty."
- Oliver Wendel Holmes, Jr.
Then you need to be more clear from the begining
October 4, 2007 - 20:41 ET by PopularTechIf you continue to be unclear from your first post you will continue to receive the responses you do.
You are being contradictory. You admit that enviros deserve criticism then try to excuse it by saying it is because they do not understand the issue you believe to be the real problem! That does not work. You must address our criticisms and we have every right to make them. You are welcome to address what you think is a problem but your cannot claim our criticisms are invalid without addressing them or making excuses for the enviros.
I have never heard enviros mention property rights issues. Regardless we constantly point out issues that the environs do not understand. That is the point of these posts!
Please quote the person here who was arguing against enviros that did not understand property rights? You created a strawman argument because no one said this, only you did!
"like the assertions on this thread: enviros are responsible for rain
forest destruction because they have created domestic demand for
biofuels that tropical countries are destryong their forests to
produce."
What? The assestion of Lynn's post is that the liberal media is ignoring the pollutoin problems of biofeuls and that they are now admitting to something we have been complaining about regarding environmental concerns over biofuel production.
But yes this point is one point we make to show the irony of endorsing Biofuels. So while you may say that the enviros may not wish for environmental damage by endorsing biofuels, we say they are idiots because they did not try to think outside of simply doing everything possible to get rid of oil usage or the implications of doing so. So yes by enviros endorsing biofuels they are in a sense hurting the environment! And when someone like Jane comes out about it we laugh because not only did we try to bring this to everyone's attention we now ask so what should we use? And that is the real problem because enviros want us to go back to some pre industrial state of living.
"You are right - the NB post and other commenters here are clearly
interested only in bashing enviros and the press. Is there no room for
expressing how this is superficial and understanding other key dynamics?"
Wait a minute, I did not agree with this. NB is about exposing liberal media bias and they clearly did with this post. Bashing enviros is simply par for the course and they deserve IMO every ounce of criticism they get.
You wanting to understand other key dynamics could have been addressed by simply bringing that point up. No one here is arguing private property rights are not a good thing.
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
Must have touched a nerve, eh, BS?
October 1, 2007 - 10:47 ET by RJYou'r a hoot, BS. Your post is so target-rich with misrepresentations, I almost don't know where to shoot first. Let's start with the fact that I pointed out that it was narcissistic of you to claim that NB posters were finally catching up to you...when we've been discussing the issue for awhile now....and your response? "Well (whine) you're narcissistic, too, RJ." Good one BS. Way to be original.
----- (ten minutes later) You know, Popular Tech pointed out that you're conradictory and way too wordy....and you are. But you're also so convoluted, and possess such little observable ability to understand what you read, that it's just not worth wading through your latest post. I began with the idea of pointing out each of your misrepresentations, but after wading through ten minutes of your tortuous writing, I decided it's just not worth my time. If you want to post again, more clearly articulating your points, I'll take a look. Otherwise....(shrug)
The Myth of Brazil’s Ethanol Success
September 30, 2007 - 14:07 ET by PopularTechPlease stop mentioning Brazil as some panacea.
Ethanol - The Myth of Brazil’s Ethanol Success (Energy Tribune)
"First, Brazil is a developing country whose consumption of crude oil is actually minuscule, 10 times less than the U.S. Interestingly, for the last 40 years, the energy consumed in Brazil as crude oil has been less than the total calorific value of corn grown in the U.S.!
Second, if one divides the total energy of ethanol consumed in Brazil by the energy of crude oil consumed there (crude oil is used for many things other than gasoline) the ratio is a mere 8 percent.
Third, Brazilians use twice as much diesel fuel as gasoline. The ethanol the country gets from sugarcane has added 40 percent only to the country’s gasoline supply.
Fourth, Brazilians are now almost self-sufficient in crude oil thanks to their oil company, Petrobras. Thus, they are selling sugarcane ethanol to Sweden, the U.S., and other countries, while driving on petroleum products at home.
Therefore, we should stop deceiving ourselves about the possibility of duplicating Brazil’s model unless we are prepared to do the following here in the U.S.
•The U.S. must cut its oil consumption by a factor of 6 in order for its per capita oil use to equal Brazil’s.
•To achieve this, all non-personal U.S. vehicles could be driven only one day per week.
•And all passenger cars and SUVs could be driven only one day every two weeks."
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
Speaking of the real story of ethanol in Brazil
September 30, 2007 - 15:29 ET by RJHere's another fact to chew on: a few years ago a prolonged drought and cold weather caused a 20% drop in Brazil's sugar cane crop.....and they had to purchase ethanol from the US to make up the shortfall.
So what happens to the supply chain when natural disasters, dropping aquafiers, pests, etc destroy the ethanol crops? If the left complains about the possibility of disrupting the oil pipeline now, wait until ethanol is a significant part of world-wide fuel usage.
Exploited Workers
September 30, 2007 - 14:54 ET by PopularTechEthanol - Brazil - Brazil Ethanol Boom Belied by Diseased Lungs Among Cane Workers (Bloomberg)
"From 2002 to 2005, the most recent years for which complete statistics are available, 312 sugar and ethanol workers died on the job, and 82,995 suffered accidents while working in cane fields and ethanol plants, according to Brazil's Social Security Administration."
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource