During live MSNBC coverage in the 9AM EST hour on Monday about the murder of abortion doctor George Tiller, guest Dr. Warren Hern, a fellow abortionist and friend of Tiller, declared: "Dr. Tiller's crime was that he helped women and the man who killed him tried to kill an idea. The idea is freedom. So we don't have to invade other countries to find the terrorists. They’re here killing doctors who do abortions. The difference between – the main difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles." Instead of challenging such an incendiary statement, correspondent Monica Novotny simply concluded the segment: "Dr. Warren Hern, thank you for joining us today. We appreciate it." [audio available here]
Earlier in the interview, Novotny asked Hern: "You were quoted as saying that Dr. Tiller's death was ‘predictable.’ What was your reaction when you heard and why do you say that?" Hern explained his statement: "This was not the act of a lone deranged gunman. This is a result of 35 years of relentless and merciless anti-abortion harassment, violence, and intimidation, hate speech and violent rhetoric, and this is the absolutely predictable consequence of that kind of mindless harassment and fanaticism."
Novotny followed that tirade by asking Hern: "Doctor, you’re facing similar threats, I know. Do you fear for your own life?" Hern replied: "Well, we’ve lived with these kind of problems for 35 years or more...And the – the anti-abortion people have made attempts on my life, threatened my life thousands of times. Every doctor who does...abortions in this country is – is under this kind of threat." Novotny continued: "But do you find yourself more fearful today in light of what's happened to your friend?" Hern exclaimed: "Well, I think that – clearly the anti-abortion people will stop at nothing, including assassination, to impose their will on other people." Novotny’s response: "Yeah."
Hern appeared later on MSNBC via telephone during the 3PM EST hour, talking with co-anchor David Schuster. The doctor offered a similar rant, referring to pro-life advocates as "terrorists" and "Fascists." He also spoke of the Republican Party "exploiting" the abortion issue.
Here is the full transcript of the exchange:
9:37AM SEGMENT:
CONTESSA BREWER: The murder of Dr. George Tiller is the first of a so-called abortion doctor in more than a decade. Now U.S. Marshals are stepping up security for others who may be targets. Let's go Monica Novotny following this for us, Monica.
MONICA NOVOTNY: Contessa, the U.S. Marshals wouldn't say who was the subject of that increased security. But Dr. Tiller was one of only handful of doctors who performed controversial later-term abortions. Dr. Warren Hern now says that he is the last doctor in the U.S. who -- who also does -- who also perform the same procedures. He is the founder and director of the Boulder Abortion Clinic, he was also a close friend of Dr. George Tiller. Dr. Hern, we appreciate you joining us, as I said, you were close friends, we’re sorry for your loss today. You were quoted as saying that Dr. Tiller's death was ‘predictable.’ What was your reaction when you heard and why do you say that?
WARREN HERN: Thank you for inviting me, Monica. Dr. Tiller’s death is a profound tragedy for his family and his friends and his medical colleagues. He's very much a beloved person and among us, those who work in this field and provide these services, he was a dedicated and conscientious physician and very courageous because he survived other assassination – another assassination attempt in 1993.
NOVOTNY: That’s right, he was shot – he was shot in both arms.
HERN: This was not the act of a lone deranged gunman. This is a result of 35 years of relentless and merciless anti-abortion harassment, violence, and intimidation, hate speech and violent rhetoric, and this is the absolutely predictable consequence of that kind of mindless harassment and fanaticism.
NOVOTNY: Doctor, you’re facing similar threats, I know. Do you fear for your own life?
HERN: Well, we’ve lived with these kind of problems for 35 years or more. The – when I first started doing abortions in Boulder, Colorado, at a non-profit clinic, I started getting obscene death threats in the middle of the night within two weeks after we started. And the – the anti-abortion people have made attempts on my life, threatened my life thousands of times. Every doctor who does-
NOVOTNY: But are you – but are you more fearful-
HERN: -abortions in this country is – is under this kind of threat.
NOVOTNY: But do you find yourself more fearful today in light of what's happened to your friend?
HERN: Well, I think that – clearly the anti-abortion people will stop at nothing, including assassination, to impose their will on other people.
NOVOTNY: Yeah.
HERN: And clearly-
NOVOTNY: Was this something Doctor, that the two of you had discussed?
HERN: -I'm alarmed and my family is alarmed.
NOVOTNY: Was this something that the – that the two of you as doctors, given the threats that you were facing, was it something that the two of you discussed?
HERN: Oh, we talked about it all the time, sure.
NOVOTNY: Yeah, and was there anything that Dr. Tiller said that remains with you today? Was he fearful that this would happen?
HERN: What can I say? We’re good friends. We call each other all the time to talk about cases, about patients. About our families. And about things of common interest. We had a good relationship. He invited me to his daughter's wedding. We skied together. This was a tremendous loss for his family and for our society. He was a – a wonderful person who was very dedicated and – this shouldn't happen. Dr. Tiller's crime was that he helped women and the man who killed him tried to kill an idea. The idea is freedom. So we don't have to invade other countries to find the terrorists. They’re here killing doctors who do abortions. The difference between – the main difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles.
NOVOTNY: Dr. Warren Hern, thank you for joining us today. We appreciate it.
HERN: Thank you.
NOVOTNY: And police have been slow to release details about the man soon to be charged in Dr. Tiller's murder. We will get more on the suspect from former FBI profiler Clint Van Zandt. That’s just a few minutes away.
—Kyle Drennen is a news analyst at the Media Research Center.




















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It's hard to be moderately pro-life:
June 1, 2009 - 16:46 ET by Chris NormanWhat don't they get about this? If murder is wrong and many people think that abortion (especially late term) is murder, how can there be a "middle way" for those people?
The "Mainstream" Media: By liberals. For liberals.
Chris
June 1, 2009 - 16:49 ET by NorthCoasterPoint well made! I thought of that issue with the "middle ground" proposed by Obama at Notre Dame. Extinguishing life is murder anytime after conception.
Granted, Chris...and as
June 1, 2009 - 19:40 ET by JerGranted, Chris...and as NorthCoaster points out below, it becomes "murder" from and at all times after the instant of conception. So for prolifers, that's the end of the debate and there is no room for compomise with that positon.
Jer
edit: "below" should read "above"
The logic is supposedly that
June 1, 2009 - 16:51 ET by GrannyGrump42The logic is supposedly that our "rhetoric" -- that abortion kills babies -- is "terrorism" because it "incites murder". One murder in ten years.
Well, what of prochoice rhetoric? That abortion is benign. That it is a fundamental right. That it frees women. That there is no rational reason to object to abortion. That abortion is good for women and families. That all women embrace abortion as a right. That abortion does not kill. That abortion saves women and families. That abortion is the responsible thing to do.
How many murders have been incited by THAT rhetoric?
Murder is the most common cause of death among pregnant women. Many of those women are murdered for refusing abort -- to to do the "reasonable", "responsible" thing that there is supposedly no reasonable reason to object to.
Has anybody done the math and figured out how many women's murders have been incited by abortion rights rhetoric?
Excellent
June 1, 2009 - 19:08 ET by KC MulvilleWell said, well said!
Great, but the problem is
June 2, 2009 - 12:50 ET by mattmGreat, but the problem is that the pro-aborts aren't instersted in right or wrong or plain common sense based on facts. They just want what they want, and anyone who disagrees with them is a crazy evil murdering tyrant.
This kind of thinking applies to other issues as well. They raise a huge stink if a homosexual is killed, but they spike any stories of gays victimizing others. They cry "greed" at corporate profiteers, yet they excuse government profiteers like Franklin Raines, Chuck Schumer et al. They have a fit over bible-study groups at schools, but barely blink an eye at muslim charter schools which get direct government funding. And on and on it goes.
And even if you point out this inconsistency to them, they can't see it, or they refuse to see it.
Oh cry me a river here...
June 1, 2009 - 17:25 ET by bigtimer"Dr. Tiller's crime was that he helped women and the man who killed him tried to kill an idea. The idea is freedom. So we don't have to invade other countries to find the terrorists. They’re here killing doctors who do abortions. The difference between – the main difference between the American anti-abortion movement and the Taliban is about 8,000 miles."
What despicable, filthy, filthy thing to say.
Real piece of work this guy Hern is.
msnbc has no shame, let alone class.
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
Tiller kept his supposedly
June 1, 2009 - 18:36 ET by GrannyGrump42Tiller kept his supposedly deathly ill patients in a motel with their third-trimester babies rotting inside them -- a practice that caused the death of a mentally disabled teenager.
He did abortions on women who hadn't given consent, at the behest of their parents or boyfriends.
He left a baby blind, paralyzed, and mentally retarded by injecting formaldehyde into her brain.
Nobody was trying to kill an idea. Somebody was trying to kill a man. A man who did heinous things on a daily basis.
Diversion
June 1, 2009 - 19:12 ET by KC MulvilleNever let a crisis go to waste, they reason. This is the only chance an abortion doctor can go on TV and act righteous, so they take the opportunity.
That's okay, "Dr." Hern
June 1, 2009 - 17:32 ET by R D Helm...because I am comparing you and your fellow travelers to someone else who had a "Dr." in front of his name, just like you do.
His name was Dr. Joseph Mengele.
You remember him, don't you, "Dr." Hern?
He once worked for Adolf Hitler.
And I am having a really hard time coming up with anything more "terrorizing" than tearing the limbs from an unborn child, poking a whole in their skull and sucking their brain out.
And don't even try to tell me they don't feel it.
-Dave
What was that line?? "Above
June 1, 2009 - 19:29 ET by USA4freedomWhat was that line??
"Above all do no harm"
Ronald Reagan, 1962: I did not leave the Democratic party, the party left me.
Insert: your name, 2008, and the Republican party.
No right to moral outrage
June 1, 2009 - 19:34 ET by nkviking75Mr. Hern ("doctor" is too dignified a title), a man like you who has exploited countless young women and destroyed so many lives, not all of them unborn, you long ago sacrificed any right to moral outrage. Your industry operates in deep shadows, vitually immune from government regulation. Your industry has maimed and killed a number of young mothers, yet the liberal establishment in government and the MSM has gone to great lengths to cover those facts up.
Shut up.
When you put the clowns in charge, don't be surprised when a circus breaks out.
Amen! Nothing more
June 1, 2009 - 19:40 ET by pahuberAmen! Nothing more sickening than a murderer of babies acting so self righteous and smug. I do believe the MSM is rejoicing over this.
Ed Schultz ranted and played
June 1, 2009 - 19:38 ET by GregEEd Schultz ranted and played examples also of why Bill O'Reilly's words in recent months on Tiller "the baby killer" were so outrageous and dangerous and nearly crossing a free speech line.
GregE.... Figures doesn't
June 1, 2009 - 19:48 ET by bigtimerGregE....
Figures doesn't it?
Anything to use as an excuse to shut up the right side of the aisle...no matter who it is that disagree with their agenda in life...Fairness Doctrine they are just trying to rack up score points and examples for....everyday...working hand in hand with Soros and team.
Thinly veiled disguise....and Pelosi won't let Pence and his bill he wants brought up for them to vote against this....she has stopped this for 2 years now.
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
Yeah, reminds me of Mengele also...
June 1, 2009 - 19:38 ET by GecksBut I have question. Maybe the PRO CHOICE people can answer this. Why is it ok to abort a fetus because it is inconvenient for the mother, but if that same woman decides to have the baby, and say 3-4 years down the line, the child becomes inconvenient, and decides to drown him/her in in a lake, (i.e. Susan Smith)they charge her with murder? Isn't that being just a little hypocritical on the pro choice side? And the little Anthony girl. Why do we even bother charging her mother with anything? Obviously, she didn't want her anymore.
Destiny rarely calls on you when it is convenient!
Because they're not the same
June 1, 2009 - 19:40 ET by balboaBecause they're not the same thing. Having an abortion is not murder.
If you mean it's not
June 1, 2009 - 19:55 ET by GregEIf you mean it's not murder, as murder is defined by US federal law, you are correct, of course. No one would argue with that, provided you are speaking directly of the law in the use of the term. Moral and ethical grounds take it in a completely different direction, hence the discussions on the matter and disagreements with the law.
I don't like abortion. I
June 1, 2009 - 20:02 ET by balboaI don't like abortion. I don't want women to have them except under extreme circumstances. However, I think the government shouldn't have a say in what a woman does with her own body. It's a very complicated issue that's never going to be completely resolved.
→ bal
June 1, 2009 - 20:10 ET by Cool ArrowIf it's not murder, and it's not illegal, why don't you like abortions?
If it's something that's going to improve quality of life, like removing a mole, or a tonsilectomy, seems like it would be something you'd like.
Guarantee you, if I didn't think it was murder, I'd be so reprobate as to call it the "off the hook procedure".
I don't like it because it's
June 1, 2009 - 20:16 ET by balboaI don't like it because it's an extreme measure, ending the possibility of a life. I don't think it's "like removing a mole."
...,ending the possibility
June 1, 2009 - 20:19 ET by pahuber...,ending the possibility of a life."
Just say murdering a life.
Repectful disagreement here
June 1, 2009 - 20:17 ET by Lord ErondAttempted suicide is illegal too. Should we legalize that since people should have a right to do what they want with their own bodies?
I'm sorry but I don't buy the whole 'keep your laws off my body' argument. We have laws that regulate other personal behavior, so why not pregnancy?
When we learn to stop thinking of the fetus as an amorphous lump of cells no different from an appendix or a gallbladder, we will hopefully see a drop in abortions. Until then, women who wish to screw around need to start having some respect for the consequences
"Let him who would move the world, first move himself." -Socrates
"We sit together, the mountain and I, until only the mountain remains." -Li Po
But abortion is something a
June 1, 2009 - 20:24 ET by GrannyGrump42But abortion is something a woman does to somebody else's body -- her baby's.
Not worthy of you, Bal - you can do much better
June 1, 2009 - 19:59 ET by SickofLibsYou are either correct, or you're getting very, very sloppy.
Of course 'having an abortion is not murder", because the person agreeing to it is not the one being killed.
So it's being murdered vs being killed, and since it's legal it can't be murder.
Cmon, I'd like to see you spin this to the point where you can rationalize that no one dies in an abortion.
I don't know what you're
June 1, 2009 - 20:05 ET by balboaI don't know what you're driving at...?
but why are they not the same Balboa?
June 1, 2009 - 23:01 ET by GecksIf a partial birth abortion involves delivering a baby to where just the head is out of the birth canal, and then jabbing something sharp into the back of the skull to kill the baby, what is the difference between abortion and murder? Is it murder if the baby took a breath? That argument doesn't fly even for Libs because there are pleanty of abortions that end in a live birth of a premature fetus. When is it murder Balboa?
Destiny rarely calls on you when it is convenient!
Yea, I've mentioned things
June 1, 2009 - 19:45 ET by GregEYea, I've mentioned things like that to an abortion supporter. They aren't very good at maintaining a civil tone at that point.
It morphs into all kinds of things. Scott Peterson was charged with two murders...........one of his wife, and one of his unborn child. Figure that one out. I've asked why was he charged with the murder of the baby. The reply is that Lacy Peterson wanted the baby. So had she not wanted it, it wouldn't have been a second murder charge on him? What about chronological order of death? If Lacy died first, then isn't the baby at that point unable to be wanted or not wanted by Lacy, the mother? I know that sounds bad, but it is what it is. The abortion supporter will also tell you that it's a woman's body, and they'll lose civility when you say it's not. Her arm is, but a baby is not. If she cuts her own arm off, no other human is harmed.
I don't at all mind a conversation of the topic, but I also know that if I get into one, I have to be prepared for civility to be gone once I bring up one of several things, though it need not be. It just tends to go that way.
Re Fourth to Seventh Trimester
June 1, 2009 - 20:06 ET by slickwillie2001Already in the works poster; this is from a few weeks ago: Texas Infanticide Bill Would Decriminalize Murdering an Infant: http://wizbangblog.com
Taliban?
June 1, 2009 - 19:43 ET by Michael257That would be the left wing nuts. They have taken over the goverment, media and force the will on the people through aggression. If you don't agree with a left wing nut, it becomes character assassination time. Tiller was responsible for 60,000 abortions. Late term abortions isn't murder? I'm confused. Obama is trying real hard to turn us into Russia before Reagan. When that happens it won't be just conservatives who can't practice free speech. You got that left wing nut comrade.
Oh "Doctor", really poor choice of analogies, there, pal
June 1, 2009 - 19:49 ET by SickofLibsOh "Doctor", really poor choice of analogies there, pal.
The Taliban behead people with rusty knives, and you use sterilized stainless steel forceps at the base of the child's skull. Big difference, huh?
Calling these abortionists "doctors" is an insult to the Hippocratic Oath. They're not saving anybody, quite the contrary.
At abortion clinics, abortions are virtually the only thing they do, day in, day out, year after year. That's why they are known as ABORTION CLINICS for crying out loud.
Nice try Dr. Hern but you're a frigging idiot
June 1, 2009 - 20:12 ET by Lord ErondHow many abortion doctors have been killed since Roe V. Wade?
How many babies and lives have you snuffed out and killed?
Wanna guess how many people have been killed in the 'glorious name of Islam and the Taliban? (Go here...http://www.thereligionofpeace.com)
Are you actually a real doctor or do you just play one on TV?
You make it very difficult to pray that something as horrible that happened to Dr. Tiller doesn't happen to you.
"Let him who would move the world, first move himself." -Socrates
"We sit together, the mountain and I, until only the mountain remains." -Li Po
The basic problem with the liberal argument
June 1, 2009 - 20:35 ET by Lord ErondLiberals think that in the process of regulating ANY type of human behavior that said regulation will lead to some type of incipient fascism. That seems to be what the liberals fear most. That they will be oppressed and put into death camps just like the Jews if they aren't guaranteed abortion on demand, unlimited health benefits for the rest of their life and free marijuanna. If I were Jewish I'd be offended by an ideology that equates laws against getting an abortion with Nazi fascism. Modern liberalism has more in common with totalitarian dictum than conservatism, that's for certain.
"Let him who would move the world, first move himself." -Socrates
"We sit together, the mountain and I, until only the mountain remains." -Li Po
And the right thinks that
June 1, 2009 - 20:40 ET by balboaAnd the right thinks that allowing any type of human behavior will lead to a United States of Caligula.
It's a fun cycle!
US of Caligula!
June 1, 2009 - 21:35 ET by nicholas nicklebyNice one, Bal.
Oh and one other thing 'Dr.' Hern
June 1, 2009 - 20:37 ET by Lord ErondPolitical leaders are assassinated.
Private citizens are murdered.
Just a point of sophistication I wouldn't expect from a baby killer like yourself.
"Let him who would move the world, first move himself." -Socrates
"We sit together, the mountain and I, until only the mountain remains." -Li Po
Besides greed, why in the
June 1, 2009 - 20:45 ET by mostlymoderateBesides greed, why in the hell would anyone want to be an abortion doctor? Even if you are pro-choice and a flaming liberal, why would you want to be an abortionist?
mm... Well...I guess a
June 1, 2009 - 20:53 ET by bigtimermm...
Well...I guess a cool million a year was enough for Tiller the Baby Killer.
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
you said it yourself
June 1, 2009 - 21:38 ET by nicholas nicklebyBesides money, someone might decide to provide abortions because they believe in a woman's right to an abortion; also, they might decide to provide abortions because they might be so angry that some people (like Scott Roeder) try to intimidate them.
so besides greed
June 1, 2009 - 21:43 ET by botgthey may support infanticide or just plain be angry leftists?
nice
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -- Chief Justice John Roberts
Nice one, botg! lol
June 1, 2009 - 22:01 ET by pahuberGeeez this place has been ooozing with the libtards today and yesterday. Predictably they want to cash in on tiller the killer's death.
Bruce, please don't feed the monkey,
June 1, 2009 - 22:02 ET by RESTLESS 1it only encourages him.
"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
R1
June 1, 2009 - 22:09 ET by botgdidn't realize i was feeding thought it more of an apocolypso (unveiling)
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -- Chief Justice John Roberts
→ botg
June 2, 2009 - 12:44 ET by Cool ArrowIn that case, quit apocolypso-ing him.
"The only reason Clarence Thomas is on the court is because he's black". - Joe Biden
well botg, some people have beliefs that they care about
June 1, 2009 - 22:35 ET by nicholas nicklebyyou may not like those beliefs, botg, but that doesn't change the fact: people care about their beliefs.
If you care about your beliefs, you should work on making clear why your beliefs are better than theirs. Because--and if you remember back to your elementary school days, you'll see what I mean--sometimes pushing people around doesn't work to make them fall in line, it only makes them push back.
But we all keep dancing around the issue: why do you think abortion is infanticide?
Supposedly Tiller found out
June 1, 2009 - 21:42 ET by GrannyGrump42Supposedly Tiller found out after his father died that Daddy Dearest had been an abortionist, so he picked up the mantle.
Wouldn't Daddy be proud of his little boy?
Yep...heard about that
June 1, 2009 - 21:51 ET by bigtimerYep...heard about that too...I heard his mom was included too...should look it up some more in a bit.
You know...like a son trying to out-do his Dad, he gave it his best...as the defenseless went silently...and Tiller's numbers increased.
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
Where does he get off? Oh, that's where.
June 1, 2009 - 21:46 ET by nicholas nicklebyMy God, to think that Dr. Hern is comparing one group of people who use violence and intimidation to force their moral and religious beliefs on people who don't agree with them with another group of people who use violence and intimidation to force their moral and religious beliefs on people who don't agree with them.
The main difference, however, is that Scott Roeder--while he may have been encouraged by the rhetoric he heard from Operation Rescue and O'Reilly--acted alone. The best thing pro-life people can do is make the American people know that this sort of violence is unacceptable.
Women have a right to do with their own bodies
June 1, 2009 - 21:51 ET by botgwhat they want.
Of course a simple DNA test will confirm that the baby is NOT part of her body.
Also what would the left say should be done with a woman who say cut off her arm? I'm sure they'd lock her up for her own good of course.
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -- Chief Justice John Roberts
I thought the Taliban (aka
June 2, 2009 - 00:48 ET by RR GOPI thought the Taliban (aka 'freedom fighters' or 'alleged terrorists') were heroes to the Libtards?
I'm so confused by these people..
One of the 34% who thinks George W. Bush was a great President. One of the 61% who wants to bring back the stock and pillory (yep...approval for Congress now at 39%...do you believe that!?).
Tiller
June 2, 2009 - 04:42 ET by trhugT.R. Huggins
What happened to Tiller was not murder- it was a "late term abortion".
Doesn't anyoine else....
June 2, 2009 - 08:17 ET by taocpafind it ironic there is no moral outrage from the left over the shooting at the military recruiting center? No surprise there, I am sure they approve of that shooting.
I saw this guy Hern on CNN last night and he was despicable. He just was over-the-top. Anderson Cooper, for a change, seemed a little squeamish about the late-term abortion procedure.
The thing I also find amusing too about libtards is these same self-righteous morons were the ones calling for the assassination of Bush, the hanging of Cheney, etc. and are outraged over this killing. There's a huge double standard for you.
When will the madness end? Hopefully, January 20, 2013.
Tom
HMMMMMM
June 2, 2009 - 12:37 ET by rick007Of course this nut job could equate Pro-Life with Jihadists.
Jihadists kill mommas pappas and babys. (everybody) because they think Allah wills it. "GOD DOES NOT"
So how do you equate this to one that cherishes life at the momemt of conseption??????
Boy the Left ( Satins Army) is a screwy bunch.
Tiller
June 2, 2009 - 05:42 ET by trhug
T.R. Huggins
What happened to Tiller was not murder- it was a "late term abortion".
Late in life Infantisize because thats ok with "O" Dumbo ears.
tiller
June 2, 2009 - 15:51 ET by ledgerhedgerLet's see 1 doctor dead vs. 20,000,000 kids dead. Yep, the press treatment of 6000 articles to none fits.
Abortion doctors kill
June 2, 2009 - 17:24 ET by rbosqueAbortion doctors kill children at the altar of political correctness. The most heinous crime is that of killing 40 million children then calling it a service to mankind. I have been through the Constitution and I have yet to find that right anywhere on that document. The crime of spilling innocent blood always cries out to heaven. I pity the monsters who have to account for these atrocities when they finally face God.