CBS ‘Early Show’ Offers Opposing Side in Global Warming Debate

Photo of Kyle Drennen.

Still Shot of Daniel Sieberg, May14 In a rare case of balance, Wednesday’s CBS "Early Show" highlighted both sides in the debate over declaring the polar bear an endangered species due to global warming as correspondent Daniel Sieberg declared: "They're at the top of the food chain at the top of the world, but their future is at the center of a political tug-of-war over drilling for oil versus protecting their habitat."

Sieberg began his report with a dire prediction: "There are an estimated 20,000 - 25,000 polar bears in the Arctic region, but environmentalists warn that rising temperatures and disappearing sea ice will cause a 30 percent decline in their population over the next 50 years." He also played clips of liberal California Senator Barbara Boxer and John Kostyack from the National Wildlife Federation.

However, Sieberg also provided perspective from the Heritage Foundation:

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SIEBERG: But the research and educational institute, The Heritage Foundation, argues that listing the polar bear on the endangered species list might do more harm than good.

BEN LIEBERMAN: There's a real question whether the polar bear is threatened in the first place, and the Endangered Species Act, the way it would work, would actually do quite a bit of economic damage, and may or may not actually impact the bears.

Surprisingly, Sieberg did not provide the usual "conservative" label to Heritage in his "Early Show" report, but the story posted on the CBS News website did refer to it as a "conservative think tank."

Sieberg went on to further highlight the concerns of opponents to listing the polar bear as endangered: "The polar bear would be the first animal to be listed endangered or threatened as a result of global warming -- which could mean two things. One -- some northern exploration for oil could be stalled, possibly leading to even higher energy prices at home. And two -- environmental groups could be empowered to sue any company or governmental agency contributing to the increase of greenhouse gases."

When co-host Maggie Rodriguez asked Sieberg at the end of the report: "The opponents feel strongly that this is not about the bear, that this is about limiting oil and gas production in the arctic. Are there more opponents or supporters?," Sieberg replied:

You know, it really is split. I mean, the polar bear is such an iconic symbol of the Arctic. And so, in some ways, critics are saying, it's just being used to try to limit greenhouse gases. But environmentalists are very outspoken. They say it is absolutely essential to look at this issue and to try to do something about their habitat, which is the disappearing ice.

Here is the full transcript of the segment:

7:11AM TEASER

JULIE CHEN: Coming up, polar bears caught in the battle over global warming.

7:14AM SEGMENT:

MAGGIE RODRIGUEZ: The heated debate over global warming has snared an animal that can survive in the world's harshest conditions -- the polar bear. CBS News Science and Technology correspondent Daniel Sieberg is here with more. Good morning.

DANIEL SIEBERG: Yeah, good morning Maggie. The Department of the Interior has until Thursday to rule on whether or not the polar bear should be listed on the Endangered Species List. It's a debate more complicated than you might expect. They're at the top of the food chain at the top of the world, but their future is at the center of a political tug-of-war over drilling for oil versus protecting their habitat.

BARBARA BOXER: The Bush administration has its legal obligation to finalize its decision on the polar bear and we all have a moral obligation to see that they do it.

SIEBERG: There are an estimated 20,000 - 25,000 polar bears in the Arctic region, but environmentalists warn that rising temperatures and disappearing sea ice will cause a 30 percent decline in their population over the next 50 years.

JOHN KOSTYACK: We are now beginning to see declines in a number of populations of polar bears, and that's because of global warming. Effectively, the polar bears are starving.

SIEBERG: But the research and educational institute, The Heritage Foundation, argues that listing the polar bear on the endangered species list might do more harm than good.

BEN LIEBERMAN: There's a real question whether the polar bear is threatened in the first place, and the Endangered Species Act, the way it would work, would actually do quite a bit of economic damage, and may or may not actually impact the bears.

SIEBERG: The polar bear would be the first animal to be listed endangered or threatened as a result of global warming -- which could mean two things. One -- some northern exploration for oil could be stalled, possibly leading to even higher energy prices at home. And two -- environmental groups could be empowered to sue any company or governmental agency contributing to the increase of greenhouse gases. But the National Wildlife Federation disputes this theory.

KOSTYACK: What we're expecting the Endangered Species Act to be used for is something that's much more direct, which is these immediate threats to the polar bear in their habitat from oil and gas development.

SIEBERG: So at least for now the fate of the polar bear is up in the air. A decision is expected tomorrow from the Department of the Interior. But anything could happen, it could be listed or not, or it could just be thrown back for more research.

RODRIGUEZ: The opponents feel strongly that this is not about the bear, that this is about limiting oil and gas production in the arctic. Are there more opponents or supporters?

SIEBERG: You know, it really is split. I mean, the polar bear is such an iconic symbol of the Arctic. And so, in some ways, critics are saying, it's just being used to try to limit greenhouse gases. But environmentalists are very outspoken. They say it is absolutely essential to look at this issue and to try to do something about their habitat, which is the disappearing ice.

RODRIGUEZ: And we'll know tomorrow? Maybe?

SIEBERG: We should know something tomorrow, possibly. It's been delayed for a long time.

RODRIGUEZ: Alright, Daniel Sieberg, thank you very much.

SIEBERG: You bet.

—Kyle Drennen is a news analyst at the Media Research Center.


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Our country has lost it's

Our country has lost it's collective mind!

We are so lacking in real leadership. Why can't just ONE prominent Republican stand up and call bull$hit?

Instead, we get the ex-Speaker of The House playing footsie with the current one over this insanity.

It's time we DEMAND term limits, and time we clean house, and start over!

ex-Speaker of The House playing footsie

...and the current GOP prez candidate. Maybe that's why CBS is willing to show a little balance - this must be confusing to them.

Seriously though, I think it shows that they people are politicians first, businesspeople second, and statesmen last.

I agree we need leaders ... not politico's!

Gary, I agree with your assessment, but term limits are not the solution. The issue is power, which is constitutionally derived by allowing our legislators to make their own rules on conducting our business. A simple change in the rules would restore power to the electorate. Current rules allow the controlling party to stack the deck in legislative committees. Commitees control what goe to the floor for a vote. If it can't get out of committee, it is impossible for it to become legislation.

If you want to be on a committee, you must suck-up to the party leaders (mostly a bunch of power-hungry $hitheads) who derive their power through "seniority." Committees and committee chairpersons are the special interest targets so it pays really well to be on certain committees that control mega taxpayer dollars. Now the solution!

All committee make-up, including chairmanship, will be based on random number generators for each congressional session. Freshmen politicians will then have power that is equal to "senior members" of Congress. The parties will have no control and by rule, politico's are not allowed to serve on the same committee for more than one successive term. This debases the party and seniority derived power and effectively puts all of the polico's on equal footing every congressional session. There may be imbalance for one session, but the law of averages eventually balances things out. It then is simple to vote in a new politico during each election cycle without fear of losing clout (pork) because seniority has no clout. Special interests would in effect have to buy all of congress each year which might become cost prohibitive. Fear of easy removal from office might cause the politico's to work for the people instead of special interests who pony up the money to help their bagmen get re-elected. The Dems should love this since the libs are all about "fairness!"

Kick in the Fair Tax, Torte reform, a Balanced Budget Ammendment, and an end to financial support of unconstitutional federal agencies like Energy, Environment, Education, Labor, Housing and Urban Development, etc. and we're on our way to a great restoration of power to the people!

Where's the libs concept of

Where's the libs concept of Darwinism and survival of the fittest. If the polar bears are dying because of not enough ice...just evolve into a bear that can live without it.

Eh doesn't matter the sea ice is making a comeback anyway...polar bears will be just fine.

"They need to have a course in college called common sense and everyone should take it. Problem is there isn't too many people that could pass or teach it." -my grandfather

Polar Bears have survived for over 100,000 years

The fact is that the Polar Bears have survived for over 100,000 years and should have no problem adapting to any future changing climate like they have in the past.

Ancient 110,000-130,000 Year Old Polar Bear Jawbone Found (BBC)

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Population going up?

Aren't there more polar bears now than there were 30-40 years ago?

Consideably more if memory serves...

Yes - Polar Bear Populations have been going up.

Yes they have been going up - the fact that the public does not know this is beyond maddening!

ESA Listing Not Needed for Polar Bears (The Heartland Institute)

"Since the 1970s, while much of the world was warming, polar bear numbers increased dramatically, from roughly 5,000 to 25,000 bears, a higher polar bear population than has existed at any time in the twentieth century."

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

PT... Serious

PT...

Serious question... You may or may not know the answer to this but I thought I would try. Now that Polar Bears are going to be on the endangered list, will the bears be tagged for tracking purposes?

"Abstain from McCain"

That I haven't heard

Though I doubt it as environmental groups would probably consider that "harmful".

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Pop Tech... I may have

Pop Tech...

I may have messed up by using the word 'tagged'. I meant to ask if they would be fitted with something like a radio collar so they could be tracked. 

"Abstain from McCain"

No I understood

Which is why I said environmental groups and not polar bear biologists or other wildlife officials. Regardless I have not heard anything about them being tagged with radio collars.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

They are already being

They are already being tracked with radio collars.

Not what he meant

I believe he wanted to know if more would be do to this legislation. 

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

You can track currently tagged Polar Bears online

 

You can track some of the currently tagged polar bears online. - Very exciting stuff.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

You skimmed one of my more

You skimmed one of my more amused arguments against atheistic neo-Darwinists who still try to preach environmentalism. If humans are simply products of nature, everything we do is inherently "natural". Thus, all effects of our actions are part of natural selection, and the typical econut basis for railing against them disappears. In short, atheism and fanatical environmentalism are conflicting ideals.

www.rhjunior.com Great comics with a hefty dose of Christian and anti-nutjob goodness.

"With your mind as high as Mt. Fuji you can see all things clearly. And you can see all the forces that shape events; not just the things near to you." -Miyamoto Musashi

The field data say the Polar

The field data say the Polar bear is thriving, not diminishing!  What is this 'dying' crap?

Silver Lining?

Just maybe the silver lining in all this is that finally there would be a path to Federal Lawsuits on the "Supposed Global Warming".
Environmentalists will have to "Prove" in Court that there is such a thing as Manmade global warming before they could get judgement to stall exploration.
While they may have gotten away with this scam, the commercial entities that will have to fight this will have the resources to birng this to court and make these wacko's put up or shut up once and for all!

Well the decision has been

Well the decision has been made...hope all enviro's are happy, including McCain...there goes drilling in Ak. thank another repub for this to-boot.

I wished Inhofe was younger and could of run for President.

I have had it with the repub. party.

"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill

This may be worse than the

This may be worse than the 1970 Ruckelshaus decision to ban DDT use in the US. Both are political - not scientific - decisions.

And that was during another Republican administration!

So does this mean we won't

So does this mean we won't be able to make ourselves more energy independent? Thanks a lot congress.

mjg... Besides the

mjg...

Besides the link I posted above about the disgusting decision here today... here are one or two more...I was shocked that Kempthorne did this, being from my husbands home state of Id. a state I lived in a lot of years and still do business with, my next door neighbor yet as I live right on the Id. Mt. state lines, I suppose anything under pressure for can happen, I just have had it myself... the link about the Bush administration plus now this must make McCain grin from ear to ear since he has worked hard against drilling in Ak over the years....it all makes me sick to my stomach...it is nothing but one big farce...at our expense here in the US.

"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill

Well now we'll really be

Well now we'll really be dependent on the very people who hate us and want to do everything in their power to destroy us and make us very dependent on their whims. Again, I say thanks a lot Congress, I'll remember what you did come november.

What

What as$hats!

I dream of a day where Bobby Jindal, Sarah Palin, Duncan Hunter or some other reincarnated Reagan (or Buckley) will ride on an iron horse into the White House with a conservative-controlled congress (3/4 of each house consisting of conservatives) and reverse the impending mess that has already started to become reality.

 

------------------------------------------------------------

Grizzly Bear '08

Polar Bear insanity - This is Madness!

I've never seen anything like this before in my life, they are listing something as endangered who's population has been increasing!

ESA Listing Not Needed for Polar Bears (The Heartland Institute)

"Since the 1970s, while much of the world was warming, polar bear numbers increased dramatically, from roughly 5,000 to 25,000 bears, a higher polar bear population than has existed at any time in the twentieth century."

If we are not making decisions anymore based on logic and reason then there is no hope left. The damn "study" they cite is using a freakin computer model that simulates less ice = less polar bears! There is no empirical evidence!!! This is madness!

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Bear Rugs?

It may be time to start a Polar Bear Rug business. 

"Abstain from McCain"

What, you expected leftists

What, you expected leftists to judge causes based on facts and merit? Silly PopTech.  Don't worry, it's only going to get worse in the next 4 years no matter who wins...

www.rhjunior.com Great comics with a hefty dose of Christian and anti-nutjob goodness.

"With your mind as high as Mt. Fuji you can see all things clearly. And you can see all the forces that shape events; not just the things near to you." -Miyamoto Musashi

PT... They, meaning the

PT...

They, meaning the Bush administration and Kempthorne fish and game ect listed it as threatened...not endangered...I don't know if read my links above.

No big difference though for the greenies or algore/McCain and all their ilk...they have to be happy about this...this will shut down any chance of drilling there for years with law-suits if even tried now.

I am past furious.

"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill

bt... I concur. Do you

bt...

I concur.

Do you think we will ever have a leader with the guts to do the right thing and tell the enviros to go pound salt? 

"Abstain from McCain"

Ct...I'd like to say

Ct...

I'd like to say hope springs eternal here...but even that in the mood I'm in it doesn't seem plausible at the moment.

I am so frustrated and mad. 

"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill

I hear ya friend! I

I hear ya friend!

I wonder if the president has the power to sign an executive order banning enviro groups from tying us up in the courts.

WE NEED A LEADER! 

"Abstain from McCain"

Ct...he will not do

Ct...he will not do that...I put a link in up above, I think it was this thread...the President agrees with this...here it is again..by the way even if he did the next Pres. would undo it with the three lovely leftist choices we have.

I do not think people realize the importance of this decision at times. 

"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill

bt... Like I said.... WE

bt...

Like I said.... WE NEED A LEADER! 

"Abstain from McCain"

CT - too many people will

CT - too many people will vote for McCain, so we can't force the issue.

 

McCain is just an older male version of Hillary but without the drug -using, adultering spouse.

Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!

Free... I absolutely

Free...

I absolutely agree. That's why I'm screaming.... WE NEED A LEADER! 

"Abstain from McCain"

I'm ready to start discussing who we can elect in 2012

I'm ready to start discussing who we can elect in 2012

  • Rice
  • Kasich
  • Watts
  • Palin
  • Steele

 

"Don't forget to vote this fall. Not for McCain, not ever, but there might be a Conservative Rep or Senator that Needs Your Vote" --Free Stinker

The Polar Bear Propaganda has begun...

They are already declaring that we listed them as endangered

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

PT...I see what you are

PT...I see what you are saying...believe me it wasn't like that about three or four hours ago...no difference whatsoever anyway for the outcome of drilling now.

ABSOLUTE MADNESS by the republican party...I HAVE HAD IT!

"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill

It's all emotional propaganda now the Polar Bears must be dying!

Arguing with these idiots about their emotional position is futile. Not one of these idiots would bother to look at the actual facts - they just believe the bears are dying because they have seen Gore's movie or hear it repeated on the news. You could get these idiots to believe anything at this point.

Drilling in Alaska is another emotional position, the oil companies have long ago been labeled evil. That propaganda has worked all too well. So many people are literally brainwashed that they think drilling in Alaska will turn it into a toxic wasteland. Fighting emotional positions is literally futile, people are just dumb.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

PT... Thank

PT...

Thank you.

Sometimes I just lose control...people really need to wake up...I give up.

My husband worked at Prudoe Bay before road and pipeline was built, he helped open it...along with other friends and relatives still there too...we lived in Ak. for nine years later on...I am just beyond mad...this is pure madness what we are doing here...unless you go to Ak. and see for yourself and live it...you do not know what you are talking about..I am only talking about the global warming nutcases...especially the likes of McCain...who I despise.

If I was younger I would move back there in a minute flat at times...I know a lot of people there that are mad they became a state instead of remaining a territory...can you imagine the oil that would of already been coming down here and to other places if they had...and they have discovered plenty of other places that hold tomns of oil there since then. 

Unbelieavable...all of this.

I do not want to hear another person bitch about the cost of gasoline....contact your congress critter. 

"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill

The reason they increased

The reason they increased starting in the 70's is because they were horribly over hunted for the first half of the 20th century. 5,000 is a drastically low population. In 1965 the first international accord was signed banning unauthorized hunting. Since then the polar bear population rebounded, peaking in 1998 according to estimates.

The increase is not an indication that bears are doing great in warmer climates, just that we've stopped killing all of them! 

well except for the

well except for the Inuit

  i am the quixotic botg and i approved this message”   

botg... Shhh....you don't

botg...

Shhh....you don't want to metion the natives there...not fair...doesn't count.

"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill

Right. As I said, they

Right. As I said, they banned unauthorized hunting. There is still a yearly harvest.

The reason you don't make any sense

If banning hunting has proven effective in increasing their population numbers despite "climate change" then it is clear hunting is the polar bears greatest threat not "global warming". The fact that their numbers keep INCREASING sure as hell means they are doing great in a "warmer" climate!

Bjorn Lomborg: Save polar bears by not shooting them (The Daily Telegraph, UK)

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Hunting is definitely the

Hunting is definitely the greatest threat. I mean, if you take any species that is involved in environmental issues, going out and shooting large numbers of them is always going to be the fastest way to kill them off! It does not logically follow, however, that because direct execution has the greatest effect then the indirect effects must be unimportant.

The global population is not currently increasing, not according to the IUCN which coordinates the international polar bear regulations. It is stable. What is tough about polar bears is that different populations have very different lifestyles, some are increasing and some are decreasing. The worry is that all of those populations are reliant on sea ice, and that the ones that are decreasing are the southernmost populations that are feeling climate change effects sooner.

Bears may be able to adjust, but try asking someone in Churchill, Canada how they feel about having more hungry bears wandering around looking for new sources of food to exploit. Polar bears are the largest land mammal on earth, and they actively hunt everything in their environment. In at least some areas polar bears are surprisingly resistant to human encroachment. Humans, on the other hand, turn out to be not so resistant to polar bear encroachment :)

There are a lot more issues at work here than just global warming, and there are a lot of things that have changed since the last time polar bears survived a warmer climate. They also haven't been around that long, evolutionarily speaking. About 200,000 years.

"Hunting is definitely the

"Hunting is definitely the greatest threat."

An unsubstantiated conclusion.  The rest of your statement is speculative bulls**t.

"The global population is not currently increasing...It is stable"

Precisely why no protection is required.

"The worry is ... "

The worry is based entirely on a prediction of future weather conditions that is highly suspect.  Intelligent people call this a scare campaign.  You appear to call such baseless speculation fact.

"Humans, on the other hand, turn out to be not so resistant to polar bear encroachment "  

Correction:  Humans forbidden by government morons from shooting dangerous bears.

 "there are a lot of things that have changed since the last time polar bears survived a warmer climate."  

Like what?  The last interglacial warm period was much warmer than the present.  How can warmer climate be the threat you claim it is if the bears survived?

My whole point is that

My whole point is that humans are now here and we won't allow the bears to move into areas we occupy in order to adjust to any changes they have to face.

The idea that species survived something before so they must be able to survive it again is only true if other conditions are also the same. Which they are not. Most large land predators are confined to small islands of habitat surrounded by human development. They are no longer able to move to adjust to changes in their environment.

As for whether hunting is a threat, that's a pretty easy one to prove. Fewer gunshot wounds equals more bears. Unless the population gets above its carrying capacity, less killing of animals is almost always going to result in more animals. Is your suggestion that instead they have increased their population size by five times because warm temperatures are better for them? What evidence do you have for that?

Polar Bears have plenty of space

Polar Bears have more land area unoccupied by humans then any other animal outside of penguins. The reason they are coming into areas with human settlements is because of the easy food sources such as garbage dumps.

We have no idea what the Arctic conditions have been over the last 100,000 years so you cannot make a statement that the current conditions are abnormal. We barely know what they have been like since 1970.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

You have a point?  Not

You have a point?  Not hardly.

I'll agree you have a misinformed opinion!

Let's talk about Polar Bear mortality.  At present, the aggregate Polar Bear population is thought to be static at approximately 25,000 individuals, depending on who is doing the counting.  How these experts know this, I cannot fathom, since no one of them covers all the known ranges and at least one of the known ranges, that in Northern Siberia, has no accurate census taken at all.

The average life expectency of a Polar Bear in the wild is thought to be about 20 years.

The annual mortality due to human harvesting is about 500-700 individuals.  Mosty of these, around 400, are carried out by the Inuit.

The total annual mortality of of adult bears has to be around 1250, otherwise the population would be growing.  If the average annual human harvest is 600, the natural mortality of adult bears has to be about 650.  This ignores infant mortality, which is known to be considerable in this species.  It is easy to see that Human hunting at the present levels is not dominating natural mortality in just the adult population and is nowhere near dominant when infant mortality is considered.

Remove Inuit hunting of Polar Bears altogether and the population will increase until food supplies are exhausted and the population collapses.  This is a well known fact and has been PAINFULLY demonstrated by past well-intentioned government meddling.

"The policy of destroying predators on sight continued until 1931 (Wallace 1972, 56). As a result, mountain lions and bob­cats were greatly reduced in number, wolves were extirpated, but coyotes continued to flourish. The Kaibab herd of mule deer, spared from most predation, increased from 4,000 in 1906 to an extreme estimate of 100,000 in 1924. They ate every green thing they could reach, and the forest took on the appearance of a clipped city park. The forest service inaugu­rated limited hunting, fawns were captured and transplanted, and there was a bumbling attempt to drive deer across the canyon by trail to the South Rim, all to little avail (Hughes 1978, 90). During the severe winter of 1924–25, tens of thou­sands of deer died of starvation"

That was a very well

That was a very well thought out post in response to a point that I wasn't making at all! Now I feel bad :) I wasn't saying that current hunting levels are a threat. Someone else stated that hunting was the biggest threat and we had curtailed it. I stated that I agreed, hunting had been the biggest threat but that that didn't mean indirect mortality was unimportant. Someone else started to argue with me about whether or not hunting was a threat at all. Which I thought was silly, and which was why I stated that killing animals with guns is a pretty clear source of mortality.

I wasn't, however, arguing that the current harvest was too high. The stable population is a clear sign that the harvest is appropriate. I don't have a problem with the number of polar bears being killed by native groups.

Nice post though :P

I'm curious where your number for annual mortality comes from?

Cleverpig you have long stopped making sense

The empirical evidence shows that Polar Bears have increased from 5,000 to 25,000 since the 1970s - you started crying that this was due to hunting restrictions yet you ignored the reality that their numbers have increased as the climate "warmed". So clearly a "warmer" climate is NOT a "threat" to them. CAN YOU COMPREHEND THIS?

You admit that hunting is their biggest threat but they are currently stable and the current harvest is ok. Yet you want them on the endangered species list? Why? So you "feel" better? What will listing a thriving/stable Polar Bear population accomplish?

Please start making sense.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Using all caps is not going

Using all caps is not going to give me any special revelations that I wouldn't already get just by reading the words you are typing.

As I think I stated pretty darn clearly, the fact that there are much more terrible things you could do to polar bears than melt their ice does not change the fact that melting their ice will be bad. We don't only list species who are suffering every possible indignation they can at our hands, we list species that we think are in trouble.

We also, if anything useful is to come of this at all, ought to list them before their fate is sealed, when possible damage can be prevented, rather than just made up for afterwards.

Scientists have made predictions about what they think is going to happen to the polar bear in the future. Not what is happening now, what is going to happen. We see signs and precursors now, but the real concern is the future. Using the resources available to species on the ESL they can now go to work trying to prevent that damage from occuring.

Anyway, you all should stop freaking out-- given the stipulations put on the ruling it currently can't be used to regulate any of the industries you are worried about.

So quit crying already!

 

Getting through to people with emotional delusions

1. What evidence do you have that Polar Bears cannot adapt to a reduced SUMMER ice minimum? Acting like the ice is gone forever is a lie. What you stated is NOT a fact but propaganda:

Arctic Winter Ice 1979-2006 (Animation) (NASA)

2. How will listing them as "endagered" stop them from going extinct?

3. How will this imagined "damage" be prevented?

4. Are these predictions using computer models?  

5. Should other thriving or stable species be listed as "endangered" so you can "feel" better? 

You cannot back any of your emotional propaganda up with ANY empirical evidence! You ignore reality and have gone mad. I don't care what you "think" or "feel" or ANYTHING about your worthless emotions on a scientific matter. You have not been able to make a scientific case for your delusions.

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Honestly, I don't think

Honestly, I don't think anything I could post at this point would convince you to stop yelling that I'm insane and my feelings are worthless.

To recap, here is the point I'm trying to make:

We don't know polar bears are in trouble. We think they are in trouble. This is based on predictions about how the arctic is changing. It is not just about feeling that polar bears are in trouble!

The changes we see are more than just polar bears drowning. It is about a change in their energetic economy-- swimming after seals instead of ambushing them, swimming to get places instead of walking, foraging for small units of food in a very sparse enviornment. All this has to do is decrease the reproductive success of the bears in order to have a negative impact on their population.

Thus they were listed as threatened. Not endangered, threatened. It means we will continue monitoring them and trying to figure out how we can prevent declines if they start to happen.

It's getting a little tiresome to continue trying to make these points while being told that I'm a mentally deficient crazy person whose feelings you don't care about (and yet continue to rail against with great gusto). So... thanks for the talk :)

»→ Get serious Cleverpig

Are their numbers growing or shrinking?

Don't hide behind "We think they are in trouble" when the copulation population says otherwise3.

Well, at least you aren't able top hide your true intent in this Polar Bear boondoggle.

You want to hermetically seal the arctic, and the polar bear is a means to that end.

♣ a seal - starve a Polar Bear

No one cares what you "think"!!!

Your "feelings" are utterly worthless to the science of Polar Bears. I only care about empirical evidence. Is that clear?

Your "thoughts" are IRRELEVANT!!! NO one cares what you "think"! Are the damn bears dying? If they are prove it! You CANNOT PROVE ANYTHING! Yet you keep making your irrelevant "points".

Yes, yes the maritime bear swims which is what they do! If their reproductive success is decreasing then PROVE IT ALREADY! Stop talking out your ass.

You just ignored and refused to answer these questions:

1. What evidence do you have that Polar Bears cannot adapt to a reduced SUMMER ice minimum? Acting like the ice is gone forever is a lie. What you stated is NOT a fact but propaganda:

Arctic Winter Ice 1979-2006 (Animation) (NASA)

2. How will listing them as "endagered" stop them from going extinct?

3. How will this imagined "damage" be prevented?

4. Are these predictions using computer models?

5. Should other thriving or stable species be listed as "endangered" so you can "feel" better?

You cannot back any of your emotional propaganda up with ANY empirical evidence!

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

Found it!

USGS report

Here are your numbers. This is specifically for the region that involves alaska, for obvious reasons. The report finds decreased cub survival and smaller juveniles. These are exactly the changes that were seen in the populations that have declined, and they showed up before the decline happened. Therefore the scientists think (not I think, I get by now that you don't care what I think. The USGS thinks) that these findings will be followed by a drop in the number of bears, which is why they recommend "conservative management of the population". This is not the only paper out there, I'm sure, but it's the one I could find.

Your questions:

1) Reduced summer ice means longer spent on land during the summer fasting. Make sense? Therefore they will have fewer reserves for breeding or surviving harsh conditions. There are some populations that historically stay on the ice year round. I have no idea what they are supposed to do when the ice retreats farther and the distance between safe ice flows increases more than usual.

2) They haven't been listed as endangered. ;)

3) I don't know how the damage will be prevented. A listing on the ESL doesn't come with a grocery list of things to try. We'll have more money to study the problem and more legal power to do something if we can find something useful to do. If we can't find something useful to do, then you're out a few million for polar bear research and it won't really affect much else.

4) Predictions of sea ice decline are based on computer models, as well as data from years past. Predictions of survival are based on a previously seen association. So yeah, real data.

5) This has nothing to do with how I feel.

Empirical evidence provided, though I'm sure it's just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. Please take back all spurious accustions of insanity!

The USGS report is based on MODELS - Not empirical evidence!

I already know about the USGS report!

"the best fitting capture-recapture model provided estimates of total apparent survival"

Again meaningless numbers. If there are all these other reports out there why can you not provide them?

1. A reduced summer sea-ice minimum means that there is less ice for a set amount of time in the summer, nothing else. It does not mean that Polar Bears will be unable to adapt to this. These bears live in one of the most un-hospitable locations on the planet and have for over 100,000 years. Thinking they cannot adapt to a changing climate that has always been is naive. You talk about Polar Bears as if they are locked into a certain behavior and cannot adapt or change, by that logic they would have died out along time ago - which is nonsense.

2. How will listing them as "threatened" prevent them from going extinct?

3. So the listing is effectively meaningless and a waste of money but we should just accept it because it is only a few million dollars of tax payer money, no big deal. Unbelievable!

4. The "predictions" are modeled! All of them. Computer modeled results are meaningless to empirical evidence.

You did not provide empirical evidence. The report clearly states:

"Because precision of earlier estimates was low, our current estimate of population size and the earlier ones cannot be statistically differentiated."

Then concludes:

"our best estimate of the current size of the population does not show a statistically significant decline"

This is called MADNESS!!!

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

They are ecological

They are ecological models.

Do you know how recapture models work? The premise is that you cannot count every single bear because they won't line up for you to do so. Therefore, you capture them, mark them, then recapture and look at how many are marked. Based on that there is a calculation that allows you to figure out how many bears of your original capture survived.

These guys are obviously using calculations more complicated than the ones I understand, but this is how ecology works! All of ecology! You can't ever actually know the total population size of anything. Even our estimates of human population size are based on models. There is nothing dodgy or unusual or suspect about using models to try and figure out how many polar bears there are and how many are surviving.

There is no other way to do it.

If you are proven right, and polar bear numbers increase or stay stable, you will be proven right by the exact same models because an actual total count is impossible.

I have no idea what you could possibly want for empirical evidence if basic ecological methodology won't suffice. And I never claimed that this was evidence of a decline in population. I have never, once, in all this interminable argument, stated that I think polar bears have declined. I said it was evidence of demographic changes that precede decline, exactly as the paper said.

It's a nice debate tactic, to keep railing against a point I never made because you know you can win, but it is underhanded and extremely annoying to keep correcting. So stop.

So explain, genius. How would you count the polar bears?

"How would you count the polar bears? "

Incredible!

I wouldn't count the freakin' P-bears for some BS feel-good liberal non issue.

Here's the skinny - the P-bears are just the same as humans and have no choice but to conform with the Darwinian absolute -

ADAPT OR DIE!

Unless, of course, you can count on Big Gove, The Goracle, The Sierra Club and Greenfleece.

Poll the bears, silly

Just send out a bunch of Bear Pollers

  • Ask 'em if they're Arctic citizens.

  • How many live on the same floe

  • How often do they eat pig (clever or not)

Da Bears

And, how do they vote?

Better, to which Party do they contribute?

Polar Bears

Well, they are white and uneducated, so I would guess Hillary?

Cool... Now that's

Cool...

Now that's funny! 

"Abstain from McCain"

I think there are a lot