American freedom is under assault within the scientific establishment and the academic community where the proponents of Intelligent Design (ID) theory are being silenced and marginalized at the expense of research that could potentially expand human knowledge and boost medical research, according to a new documentary that raises questions about Darwinian assumptions.
A growing number of scientists with expertise in biology, chemistry, physics and astronomy have encountered a level of complexity in the observable universe that in their estimation cannot be sufficiently explained by a random, directionless process. For this reason, they are compelled to offer up alternative theories for biological and astronomical objects that appear to be carefully calibrated and finely tuned by way of an intelligent agent.
Unfortunately, scientists in the United States who offer up Intelligent Design as a possible alternative to Charles Darwin’s 150 year old theories about the origins of life and the evolutionary process often find they cannot speak out without jeopardizing their careers and professional reputations.
“Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed” calls attention to the plight of highly credentialed researchers and scholars who have been forced out of prestigious positions. Instead of entertaining a free, unrestrained open debate on the merits of competing theories, the scientific establishment has instead moved to suppress the Intelligent Design movement in a “systematic and ruthless” fashion at odds with America’s founding principles, the film asserts.
Although America was founded with a distinctive worldview that acknowledged a creator, today’s government agencies and publicly funded institutions are very much weighted in favor of methodological naturalism that presupposes life on earth is the by product of undirected, purposeless evolutionary forces. Moreover, the film strongly suggests the scientific establishment has very little appetite and patience for fully engaging in a debate with ID proponents.
There is a paradox at work here that is not lost on Ben Stein, a former presidential speechwriter who serves as the film’s narrator. On the surface Darwinian scientists appear supremely confident in their position. Nevertheless, they are reticent to allow for unfettered research and inquiry that takes ID into account. Stein, who is now an actor and political commentator, sees sociological, psychological and ethical factors at work.
“If they are Darwinists and they owe their jobs to being Darwinists, they are not going to challenge the orthodoxy because that would challenge the whole basis of their jobs and their lives,” he said in an interview.
“So they are not going to challenge the ideology that has given them lush positions in real life. That's one thing. Second thing, once people are locked into a way of thinking, they are unlikely to change. Third is, if they acknowledge the possibility of intelligent design and that intelligent design is God, then they may think God has moral expectations of them and they may be falling short of those moral expectations, and they may be worried about some sort of judgment upon them.”
Toward the end the film Stein interviews a Polish official who tells him there is more freedom and latitude in his former communist country to pursue certain avenues of scientific inquiry than there is now in the United States.
“Censorship is stronger in the U.S. than in Poland because you have political correctness,” he observes.
Stein has his own take on the erosion of American freedom that seems to be occurring while Eastern European countries move in the opposite direction.
“I think there is this kind of Marxist establishment in this country that has been overthrown in other countries, but not overthrown here,” he said. “There is a very powerful Marxist establishment within the intelligentsia that does not allow questioning of its premises.
“Expelled” is set for release this coming Spring though Premise Media Corporation, a company that finances and produces independent films. The documentary begins and ends with a plea for greater freedom in academia from Stein. The ability to question conventional wisdom and to raise new ideas that run counter to the consensus is in great peril in his view.
“Freedom of inquiry is basic to human advancement,” Stein wrote in a his own blog introducing the film.
“There would be no modern medicine, no antibiotics, no brain surgery, no Internet, no air conditioning, no modern travel, no highways, no knowledge of the human body without freedom of inquiry. This includes the ability to inquire whether a higher power, a being greater than man, is involved with how the universe operates. This has always been basic to science, always.”
—Kevin Mooney is a reporter with CNSNews.com












Comments Policy
You actually believe...
January 28, 2008 - 11:23 ET by Syrius...in intelligent design? How about some excellent points made by a leading Astrophysicst Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson in this youtube video...
http://www.youtube.c...
Get back to me when you actually view it. I'd love to discuss each of the points made by Dr. Tyson.
Also, one word on creation theory- "Fossil".
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
Syrius - why don't you address the points made in this blog?
January 28, 2008 - 11:27 ET by Dee BunkIs it because you can't?
Gott Love Syrius
January 28, 2008 - 11:27 ET by candanceInstead of commenting on the actual subject of the article, he just looks around and says "People still believe this stuff?"
Motherbelt's Santa Claus analogy fits him perfectly.
Candance - looks like we had the exact same thought at the same
January 28, 2008 - 11:30 ET by Dee Bunktime. Jinx!
Intelligent design?
January 28, 2008 - 11:33 ET by SyriusCandance,
Were shall we begin?
Ben Stein is a hoot as an actor and politico type. Not really seeing the creds on his scientific background.
First, do you believe in intelligent design?
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
No Syrius
January 28, 2008 - 11:38 ET by candanceYou're not going to hijack this thread into a religious debate. YOU are trying to change the subject and I don't like that. When the mods post an article about the basic merits of ID then we can talk about that.
This article is about censorship. That's what we are here to talk about.
It's simple, really
January 28, 2008 - 12:12 ET by Hero SquadIf you are secure in your beliefs, then you should welcome debate, not attempt to surpress it.
*****
" People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will
absolutely - if ID is so
January 28, 2008 - 12:55 ET by TruthMongerabsolutely - if ID is so stupid and idiotic they should be more than happy to slap it down in all kinds of public debate - yet they seem to fear any kind of ID discussion at all...
A debate would be tough.
January 28, 2008 - 12:59 ET by balboaA debate would be tough. After all, everything on the ID side could just be explained as "That's part of the design", couldn't it?
"Explain the duck-billed platypus."
"Part of the creator's design."
Perhaps. But this is in the
January 28, 2008 - 13:14 ET by Hero SquadPerhaps. But this is in the court of public opinion, primarily. If it looks too much like your dodging a question or taking the easy way out, you lose credibility.
The ID side would probably need to focus on poking holes into the Darwin side of the debate. ID merely needs to get people thinking "Well, that certainly could be plausible."
*****
"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will
yes debate on this would
January 28, 2008 - 13:26 ET by TruthMongeryes debate on this would probably be tough - I would love to at least see or read about some something like this - anyone with vested interests on either side would likley be exposed, IMO...
Irreducable complexity -
January 28, 2008 - 17:45 ET by Lord ElicaniIrreducable complexity - one of the fundimental theories of Intelligent Design - was first accepted by one Charles Darwin in the Origin of Species. He states that there might come a time where systems are found that could not have possibly come from natural selection.
"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which
could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight
modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
Now, in Darwin's time, no such case was found. Now, however, it seems to be different.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra? Quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet?
No Balboa - ID does not rule out evolution - it's completely
January 28, 2008 - 13:26 ET by Dee Bunkcompatible with it. Nothing in ID says that things don't evolve only that everything can't be explained by evolution. ID says that there had to be something to begin with. Things can't evolve from nothing. How was that first thing created and was that first thing "designed" to evolve? No one can know for certain and until someone can prove otherwise science should allow for the possibility.
"After all, everything on
January 28, 2008 - 15:43 ET by Chris Norman"After all, everything on the ID side could just be explained as "That's part of the design", couldn't it?
Yes. Much like cold weather/hot weather/drought/excessive rain is explained away in the Church of Global Warming...
I'll take the bait...
January 28, 2008 - 12:33 ET by tnculpSeriously weak arguments. Tyson is simply preaching to the choir,
pointing out things which he deems to be "stupid design." (a lot of
which are theories about our unvierse that he makes but can't
prove...the universe is going to destroy itself...at some
point..probably trillions of years in the future...which is convenient
because our history will probably be eliminated from record by then,
making his theories useless.)
His entire position can literally be summed up like this:
Things can kill humans therefore there is no god. Or:
Humans aren't immortal therefore the universe is not built for us, and if it was, whatever did it, is an evil SOB.
That video in and of itself exemplifies the attitude of the left that
there is no other opinion. He makes it quite clear that he doesn't want
a religious person working in science. I'm sure Einstein (who wasn't a
Christian but believed in some sort of creator...kinda like ID...)
would have a few words for this guy.
In the end, it's the arrogance factor. This guy is so dilluted by
his own self-loathing that he can't even explain why certain things are
the way they are, that he has to blame someone else for his own
imcompetence. Which translates into:
I hate God because I can't beat him.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is
blind."
- Albert Einstein (Intelligent Design Advocate, Moron)
Einstein quote is bogus
January 28, 2008 - 13:18 ET by kd5463Actually that quote is taken way out of context. I suggest reading http://www.snopes.co....
I have the essay which it
January 28, 2008 - 17:48 ET by Lord ElicaniI have the essay which it was taken out of. It's not taken out of context - the entire essay is about the reconciliation of science and religion.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra? Quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet?
This is the sort of
January 28, 2008 - 12:42 ET by CortillaenThis is the sort of arrogance I've come to expect from people who simply hate the concept of God. He's making assumptions with utterly insufficient evidence right from the start. He assumes that all life in the universe will be life as we know it, assumes to know the history of all life in the universe, and assumes that a "creator" would be actively tinkering with his creation. His entire argument against an intellect being involved in creating the universe revolves around repeatedly saying that the universe is inefficient and that most of it is hostile to our concept of life (misspelling "crocodiles" didn't help his presentation much). Contrary to his clear belief, a higher being may not be interested in making a perfect universe devoid of anything opposing life. In fact, anyone who understands the biblical reasons for our existence knows that such an act is utterly contrary to God's intent.
Syrius, I'm not going to go any further on this tangent here, but if you want to create a forum for it, I'll happily deconstruct everything wrong with this guy's arguments. I'll even explain my view of our existence and creation for you.
www.rhjunior.com Great comics with a hefty dose of Christian and anti-nutjob goodness.
"With your mind as high as Mt. Fuji you can see all things clearly. And you can see all the forces that shape events; not just the things near to you." -Miyamoto Musashi
Syrius, I watched the video.
January 28, 2008 - 14:30 ET by lotrSyrius,
I watched the video. While he is entertaining, he has not convinced me that life is anything but a conundrum, one I find difficult to explain soley by forces that tend toward randomness. Life, by its very nature, is aimed at survival, and Darwinian evolution is based upon this purpose (to survive, to work against the natural forces directed toward randomness). His arguments about the Universe being a hostile place for life are quite valid, but only seem to add to the conundrum: Here we are, alive on a planet perfected for sustaining us, "self-aware" and capable of grasping an "objective" description of natural mechanics (which "we" affectionately call laws -- how quaint), while the Universe is inherently hostile against such a possibility. The premise that all of this, including the good professor's lecture, this blog, Number Theory, Topology, the Theory of Relativity, Beethoven's Ninth, the Sistine Chapel, the pyramids, the Taj Mahal, the Moon Landing, tea roses, puppies, love, etc., are merely solutions to a magical (for it is mysterious) Equation -- well, forgive me, but I'm a skeptic.
True, true...
January 28, 2008 - 15:32 ET by Syriuslotr,
Me, too. The only thing we can believe in is change. As theories manifest themselves and are proven or disproven, we will still be mesmerized by the unknown, the mysterious, and the unexplained. There is no need to shut down and bury our heads in the ground. We must have a process in explaining the world around us and try not to kill ourselves along the way. This has been a very enlightening discussion and one that will continue well beyond our time until we all become cosmic particles or angels once again...
Cheers,
Syrius
"Make everything as simple as possible but not simpler."-Einstein
Thanks for your response to
January 28, 2008 - 15:58 ET by lotrThanks for your response to but one of many posts (thought mine would be lost in the shuffle)... While I disagree with the atheistic world view, I am very pro-science and do respect intellectual honesty.
Lord of the Rings- your
January 28, 2008 - 16:09 ET by CapitalismRulesLord of the Rings- your comments did not get lost in the shuffle, not on me at least. You have always been even-tempered, balanced and accomodating to most involved in heated threads like this one. Your ability to find common ground is matched only by the way......ah the hell with it, good post, dude.
Thanks for the kind words
January 28, 2008 - 16:40 ET by lotrThanks for the kind words CR. Cheers brother.
The main problem with both
January 28, 2008 - 17:51 ET by Lord ElicaniThe main problem with both ID and evolution as scientific theories is that they can't really be ultimately proven. Also, the followers of both routinely get the arguement into religion, which isn't that good for what should be a scientific debate.
That being siad, I have the utmost respect for Dr. Tyson's work.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra? Quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet?
I'm thrilled that Ben Stein is doing this film
January 28, 2008 - 11:29 ET by Dee BunkHe's a funny guy and more conservatives need to make these type of documentaries.
Darwinists won't let
January 28, 2008 - 11:31 ET by mattmDarwinists won't let opposition into the debate because they're afraid they might be shown to be wrong and will therefore have to acknowledge the possibility of a Divine Source for their own existence.
They refuse to do this because in their religion, they are god, and they won't relinquish that throne.
I wonder if PBS will broadcast this documentary. After-all the "P" stands for "Public" doesn't it?
Matt
January 28, 2008 - 11:35 ET by candanceThat's one of the big problems with the left in America. If they were so sure of themselves and their knowledge, they would let dissenters blather on knowing there's no competition.
Instead, the left always feels in danger of dissent and seeks to censor it - from global warming to evolution to abstinence education - they assure that their views are promoted as truth while dissenters are treated as lunatics.
Which is a sure sign that
January 28, 2008 - 11:39 ET by mattmWhich is a sure sign that they are probably wrong about everything.
Lol, Syrius hit the nail on
January 28, 2008 - 11:44 ET by ThoughtPoliceLol, Syrius hit the nail on the head.
He told you to watch a video on Dr. Tyson (to which you all didn't) then come back and say "yes, but you didn't answer the post." Well, what question was posed in the post??
It seems that Ben Stein (a scientist all of a sudden??) hasn't read anything by Dr. Tyson or my personal favorite Richard Dawkins. I just finished Dawkins latest book "The God Delusion." Not unlike his other books, it basically tears intelligent design a new one.
The funny thing is, Dawkins argues the opposite that Reason and science are not to be found in Religion and when he tries to debate a theologian they usually deploy the same "yes, but the scriptures say so!" tactic.
Stein doesn't want us to believe in a 150 year old theory but DOES want us to believe in a 5,000 year old fable? Haha..
If your still wanting Syrius (or myslef now that I am in the debate) to counter any creationist diatribe, please ask away.
Thought Police
January 28, 2008 - 11:50 ET by candanceIf your still wanting Syrius (or myslef now that I am in the debate) to counter any creationist diatribe, please ask away.
Let me explain this very slowly. No one wants you to counter creationist diatribes. No one watched Syrius's link because we specifically asked him not to change the subject.
We want you to discuss the charge of censorship found in the article.
ThoughtPolice, your name fits you.
January 28, 2008 - 11:59 ET by mattm"He told you to watch a video..." I don't do what Syrius tells me to do.
What's funny is how all you anti-religionists can't even see that your own viewpoint is based on a religious idea - the non-existence of God. You are just as religious as any Theist.
In actual fact, Intelligent Design has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with looking at the scientific evidence in a different way. - this is something open-minded people do.
The point of Stein's documentary, is that the religious dogmatism resides with the Darwinists, not the IDers, and that this dogmatism is antithetical to scientific pursuits.
I watched the trailer...
January 28, 2008 - 12:43 ET by Syriusmattm,
Are you scared of watching Dr. Tyson's video?
The trailer for the film was funny beyond belief. I'll classify the film in the same category of 'This is Spinal Tap' by Rob Reiner.
Syrius
"This pretentious ponderous collection of religious rock psalms is
enough to prompt the question, 'What day did the Lord create Spinal
Tap, and couldn't he have rested on that day too?'"- This is Spinal Tap.
Nice deflection...
January 28, 2008 - 12:53 ET by mattmNice deflection...
For thoughtpolice
January 28, 2008 - 15:33 ET by futbolisgreat1Thoughtpolice.... I see you are a fan of the atheist Richard Dawkins, an intellectual light weight and a dishonest man who hates with a passion the Roman Catholic Church.
I would suggest that you read the book "God is no delusion: A Refutation of Richard Dawkins" by Thomas Crean.
To use your words, it tears a new one into Richard Dawkins "logic".
and unlike you havce asserted, the book uses simple human logic to show how dishonest and how illogical and emotional Rirchard Dawkins is.
If you are truly open minded, thoughtpolice, I suggest you pick this book up and see how without quoting scripture, as you claim all theologians do to debate Richard Dawkins, this author slaps Dawkins simple mindness and hatred around.
Futbol, I would not throw
January 28, 2008 - 18:42 ET by ThoughtPoliceFutbol, I would not throw around the term "intellectual light weight" so sparingly. Dawkins has more than just a few books on the matter and has devoted his life to the scientific understanding of life (since religion can't give us an understanding at all).
Dawkins latest book is 420 pages. This Crean characters "rebuttal" book is 160. Not that this is a measurement of how solid an argument is, but it does show how much time/emphasis was invested in the research.
I will gladly and willingly read this book, will you do the same for Dawkins? I'm about to order it from Amazon...
Debate is critical.
January 28, 2008 - 12:03 ET by Syriusmattm,
Critical thinking is always needed in any debate. When it comes to the scientific community; theories, statments, proofs, scientific methods are the key to unlocking mysteries and expanding our knowledge of the world around us. Blind belief may help you in getting through your life but doesn't answer others quest for knowledge and understanding in their own lives. There are plenty of theories that are proposed every day some are refuted and some are proven. Just because we don't understand something today doesn't mean we won't understand it tomorrow. To end the discussion and debate on an unproven theory and just go on with our lives is clearly for fools. There are problems with the theory of evolution and natural selection as Darwin himself confessed, "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable
contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for
admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of
spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural
selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."
Being able to understand what a theory is and what it isn't helps in formulating more understanding. Absolute proof may take time, possibly longer than you care to think.
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
Syrius
January 28, 2008 - 12:08 ET by OldSailor88Point made. This still doesn't have anything to do with censorship.
Stultus est sicut stultus facit
The scientific community...
January 28, 2008 - 12:16 ET by Syrius...is brutal in it's simplicity and logic of refuting and proving theories. It's not censorship to them for them to refute papers and discussions presented to the scientific community. You may want to believe it's censorship but it's a process that is beautiful in its simplicity. I can tell you one theory I will not refute- gravity.
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
Yes, but to the best of my
January 28, 2008 - 12:27 ET by Hero SquadYes, but to the best of my knowledge, no one is being stifled for believing that gravity does not exist.
And would there be someone that challenged this theory, the scientific community would need not shy away from such a debate.
*****
" People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will
The best way for the...
January 28, 2008 - 12:35 ET by Syrius...scientific community to debate and stifle the person for believing that gravity doesn't exist is to throw the person off of a very high cliff. rofl!
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
Precisely! So when the
January 28, 2008 - 12:50 ET by Hero SquadPrecisely! So when the scientific community is secure in it's theories, it says without hesitation, "bring it on."
It's when they are less secure that, suddenly, "debate is over"-type statements are tossed about.
*****
"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will
Hero, I believe that Syrius
January 28, 2008 - 15:41 ET by futbolisgreat1Hero, I believe that Syrius has not comprehended that it is not that they have disproved Intelligent Design, like any scientist can disprove a person that denies gravity, but rather that the scientific world is silencing through threats, any professor or scientists that dare speak against the THEORY of Evolution.
The scientific world is NOT ignoring ID, they are destroying the life of any scientist that dare speaks their mind about Evolution and ID, well obviously, any scientist that dares goes against Evolution.
Hey Syrius, if Evolution is so correct, why is it that it has NOT become a Scientific Fact, Law? Like Newton's Laws of gravity? ever ask yourself that?
I find individuals like Syrius and Thoughtpolice to be quite the commedians. There they are desperately trying to disprove religion and the existance of God, right? yet they themselves have their gods and religion.
Science is their religion, scientists their priests and Scientific books their Bible and if anyone dares question their science, they will make any attempt to humiliate them. They are completly closed minded to thinking that maybe they are wrong.
You know I ask individuals like them if they are smarter than people like the person who maped the human genome, an atheist who converted to Catholicism after seeing the complexity of the human body and who saw that it was impossible that the human body happened by chance.
"Blind belief may help you
January 28, 2008 - 12:10 ET by mattm"Blind belief may help you in getting through your life but doesn't answer others quest for knowledge..."
Which is EXACTLY the point of Stein's documenatry.
Blind belief in Darwinism is stifiling the quest for knowledge.
It is your own strict adherence to your particular dogma that prevents you from seeing that it is YOU who are blind.
I've looked at both sides of the debate, have you? Or do you use the religion excuse to close your ears and eyes to a side of the debate that makes you uncomfortable?
Or maybe
January 28, 2008 - 12:17 ET by sarcasmoBlind belief in socialism on the part of the left and the right when it comes to education stifles that quest in favor of central control. Maybe an actual free education marketplace ("actual" means less government spending at vote-time, not conservative-sounding platitudes around election-time) would treat all sorts of ideas more-fairly. Don't like the ideas served in one place? Buy elsewhere.
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul. (All purpose anti-slander-link, sadly-needed these days...)
Lighten up. Francis...
January 28, 2008 - 12:29 ET by Syriusmattm,
The point of Stein's film is MONEY. It's going to put money in his pocket and the creators of the film. He's not doing this for free. So, save your coins and go see it. I'll wait for your review.
As for my dogma...it's to question the unknown in a hope to a better understanding of the world around me. I'm not uncomfortable with religion at all. I believe people can be moral and just with or without it. I believe in a sense of community for everyone. To understand different religions, philosophies, writings and teachings can only help in our overall understanding of ourselves and of each other. How could that be closed-minded?
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
If that's the case, then
January 28, 2008 - 12:29 ET by Hero SquadIf that's the case, then maybe Stein's also hoping that he'll win a Nobel Peace Prize in the process.
*****
" People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will
Miracles happen right?
January 28, 2008 - 12:36 ET by Syrius"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
So... would that prove to
January 28, 2008 - 12:52 ET by Hero SquadSo... would that prove to you the existence of God? :- )
*****
"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will
You don't think Darwinists
January 28, 2008 - 13:02 ET by mattmYou don't think Darwinists are protecting their turf for fiscal as well as philosophical reasons? Do you know how much competetion there is for grant money? Do you know how much harder it would be for the current intelligensia to maintain their grip on the business end of science if the dogma they've been pushing for over a century were to be demonstrated to be false, or at least highly questionable?
Money is as much, if not more, of an issue for the Priests of Darwinism as it is for the IDers.
"So they are not going to
January 28, 2008 - 11:44 ET by JasonC"So they are not going to challenge the ideology that has given them lush positions in real life."
This has interesting parallels to Capitalism vs. Marxism, another ideologically-charged opposition that almost always, at least in casual conversation, relies more on instinctive notions of what's right rather than what makes sense. In the case of this article, Darwinians are accused of not giving ID a second thought because evolutionary theory has given them grants and fellowships and prestige. Not biting the hand, and so forth.
Likewise, just as those who accept evolution can hardly even allow the possibility of ID, if only because they have been so well-conditioned to believe in evolution, those who are capitalist subjects, that is, their lives are inextricably tied up in the capitalist system (through mortgages, investments, bank accounts, credit card debt, and of course, the purchasing of commodities) generally cannot even conceive of its absence. And, of course, those who benefit from this system have an obvious vested interest in maintaining it.
Bear with me a momemnt: Now and then a conversation here on NB will mention how Star Trek is ideologically suspect because it showed a society flourishing sans financial institutions of any kind. Now, a person on the lookout for leftism in culture might notice this, but the average trekkie, who can tell you, off the top of his head, like how many Season 2 episodes involved Klingon attacks, never notices this.
My point, simply, is that there are some commonly accepted ideas that cannot be changed, not just because of their ideological appeal but because it is nearly impossible to conceive of it any other way. In the Capitalism/Marxism example, of course, the leftist is the marginalized one. In Evolution/ID, it is the conservative.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte
No Jason -it's not the same
January 28, 2008 - 11:53 ET by Dee BunkNo one tries to silence people who don't support capitalism. In fact it's the opposite. People who support Capitalism are portrayed as selfish and in it for themselves. No one ever looks at it as Capitalists feel it's the best way to raise the most people out of poverty.
The problems with Capitalism are highlighted on a daily basis without context. If you compared socialism accurately against Capitalism, no one would be for socialism/communism.
This correlates directly to
January 28, 2008 - 11:59 ET by OldSailor88This correlates directly to the AGW debate and scientists tied to money. The only way to get a grant is to support AGW. If not, you're outside the mainstream and considered a hack. The scientists stay where the grant money is. The point being made here is the same. Intelligent Design scientists can't break through and are being silenced because the Darwinian theory is where the money lies. In my humble opinion I think that the ID people are also shunned because the Darwinians are afraid of religion.
UPDATE: Here's an interesting article about the censorship that their documentary is talking about.
Stultus est sicut stultus facit
Observation v. Conclusion
January 28, 2008 - 11:58 ET by pilsenerThe problem with most of the Intelligent Design materials I have read is that rather than stopping with "a level of complexity in the observable universe that in their estimation cannot be sufficiently explained by a random, directionless process", they carry on to the conclusion of a Creator.
In my estimation, many of the questions asked by Intelligent Design are reasonable and valuable, but don't fully support the idea of God as Creator. Most proponents of Intelligent Design can not imagine separating the observations from the conclusion.
pilsener - please link to something that has been proposed
January 28, 2008 - 12:10 ET by Dee Bunkthat concludes that. From what I've read on ID it doesn't conclude either way. It allows for the possibility that there is a creator rather than Darwinism which concludes that there is not one.
Just because some people have a religious belief that God definitely exists does not mean that they have concluded it on a scientific level. Supporters of ID can believe in God, Jesus, Buddha, or Greek Mythology for that matter. The ID theory doesn't say anything about who the creator is.
In the beginning there was.....
January 28, 2008 - 12:03 ET by PawpawNThis is a fill in the blanks: In the beginning there was ______________________________________________________
And you can say what you think.
ID
January 28, 2008 - 12:09 ET by pwozID is NOT science.
Neither is Evolution
January 28, 2008 - 12:17 ET by mattmNeither is Evolution
A
January 28, 2008 - 12:30 ET by cvgbuckeyeA couple of quick points to all of the so-called atheists:
1. You are bent on conducting a scientific debate when Christianity is based upon the supernatural.
2. What parts, if any, of The Bible have you ever read and what parts do you disagree with?
3. Show me the link (fossil) from which humanity made the jump from ape to man. Hint: None exists.
4. What matter has science been able to create out of nothing? With all the great scientific advancements, shoulda happened by now; don't you think????????
5. NOTHING from Darwinism has been furthered by discoveries in the last 150 years.
6. There have been 642 archeological discoveries since 1948 that support various portions of the Bible and just short of 500 that are in the proofing process.
7. AND FINALLY: I,M AFRAID THAT YOU MAY NEVER EXPERIENCE THE REAL PROOF OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD AND THAT IS THAT THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT RESIDES IN ME, I KNOW MY GOD. I AM VERY SORRY FOR YOU.
i don't know
January 28, 2008 - 12:39 ET by pwozwhat I believe in. I couldn't care less.
I think that perhaps it all began with some kind of intelligent force, but it stopped there.. meaning:
Some life force began everything, set it into place, and billions of years later, he we are bickering about where we came from. Who cares?
I believe that the Bible is a great piece of work, but I, in no way, feel it should be taken literally. I have read it so many times, and my honest interpretation is, "Wow, Jesus was a cool guy. He was so nice to everyone, maybe I should be as well." That's it.
a cool guy:)
January 28, 2008 - 15:32 ET by TruthMonger"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. I am the ultimate night club bouncer - you must be on my list - no exceptions:)..."
-Jesus
well if nothing else, Jesus
January 28, 2008 - 16:21 ET by CapitalismRuleswell if nothing else, Jesus was either crazy, the world's biggest liar of all time, or God incarnate- one has to take a pick. And to be honest I don't think "cool" people are insane or liars and I certainly do not model my life after them.
i do concur and He IS
January 28, 2008 - 16:59 ET by TruthMongeri do concur
and He IS STILL cool:)
Can we get an amen? Also,
January 28, 2008 - 17:58 ET by Lord ElicaniCan we get an amen?
Also, can we get an evolutionist to explain the Cambrian Explosion?
Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra? Quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet?
All Good Points
January 28, 2008 - 12:45 ET by CapitalismRulesAs a Christian, I do agree that intelligent design is not science, and I would convey to all those who believe that evolution is gospel are very misguided at best. Evolution is a theory just like quantum physics string theory. Very few scientists doubt that "string theory" is a done deal in terms of investigation, yet many scientists, bolstered by media-types are quick to present evolution as the best explanation for biological existence. Very few are so quick to offer string theory as a unified field explanation because they will readily admit there is so much they do not know yet, so many problems with this theory. Strange that this same type of admission is not applied to evolution despite numerous problems with it..
Personally I believe that it takes a TON of faith to say humans are accidents of nature and I believe that the reason scientists put forth evolution and why so many are quick to embrace it is beacuse it releases them from personal accountability. We can act like animals, because we in fact are. There is something morally liberating about this very odd illusion.
I agree with several points...
January 28, 2008 - 13:02 ET by SyriusCR,
I enjoyed reading your comments. I've tried to explain theories are theories and not yet laws. Your statement "they will readily admit there is so much they do not know yet..." sums it all up for both sides to a certain degree. A bold statement would be for me to say the scientist lives in the present trying to understand the current state of which we live in and the true believer wants to believe in a better life than what they have for God rewards the good and punishes the evil.
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
There is much to be agreed upon
January 28, 2008 - 13:17 ET by CapitalismRulesI see in several posts you were being jabbed into trying to explain censorship in regards to ID, but a firm understanding of the nature and principles of ID and evolution are needed before any argument about cencorship in this instance can begin. No sense in arguing with someone who does not understand scientific theory, faith-based explanations or the origins thereof.
CR
January 28, 2008 - 13:09 ET by candanceThis is when you know evolution has become a religion to them. They literally put their faith in science that it "must be right" and oppose any argument with the assumption that science will one day explain it.
Just as the Christian says "I don't know everything about God but I know what the Bible tells me."
an atheist says "I know I don't have an answer for everything, but I know what science has proven and one day the truth will be revealed!"
They put their faith in science above the debate at hand and then ridicule Christians for doing the exact same thing.
You tell me...
January 28, 2008 - 14:00 ET by SyriusCandance,
As you walk along a street, a part of an aircraft falls out of the sky and hits you on the head creating a big bump. Science or God? Lawsuit or Act of God?
Syrius
"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or
has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I
nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his
physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish
such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life
and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the
existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a
portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in
nature."
- Albert Einstein, The World As I See It
Thats a hard-hitting, $1M question
January 28, 2008 - 14:27 ET by CapitalismRulesBut I will go ahead and take a stab at it. Obviously you have mechanical engineering failure subject to the scientific laws of gravity and air friction. Then exactly where the object lands is a matter of statistcal probablility/ improbability. Then the biological reaction to the object's blunt trauma to the head creates a bump due to broken blood vessels.
Okay let's stop there for a minute- sounds very scientific based on what's going on. Could the airplane be aloft if not for human mastering of flight and from where did humans originate? Could the bump on the head not occur if not for the complexity of the human circulatory system and from where did that "evolve" from? Can we not have God "in" all things but not necessarily "controlling" everything? If my older son accidentally drops a Match-Box car on my younger son's head and creates a bump, could one "blame" me or call it an act of negligence on the part of the dad for not watching out for my kids or raising them properly? Or would it be more appropriate to punish (lawsuit- in human terms, I suppose) the responsible party while recognizing the role dad plays. I may have a hand in the type of physical and emotional behavior of my kids, but I do not control (free will in the physical and psychological worlds) what they do, when they do it and the physical properties that result from their actions.
One might argue that since God can control all things, the question then is should He (She).
Right CR
January 28, 2008 - 15:08 ET by candanceIn cases like this atheists tend to apply an all-or-nothing mentality. If God be there....then He must be involved in every detail of human activity and should be blamed for all that goes wrong.
It never occurs to them that God created us and then mostly put us on autopilot to do as we please.
In the the premise you describe above, I would fault man for not properly inspecting the aircraft or not knowing how to fly it. Why did God allow it to hit me? Why should God go out of His way to keep it from hitting me? Perhaps if I had not been standing there, someone else would have and maybe they would not have been healthy enough to survive. Maybe God just needs to knock me over the head to get my attention.
You don't want to credit God for sophisticated creation but have no trouble blaming Him for freak accidents.
This is akin to .......
January 28, 2008 - 15:35 ET by LCT688This is akin to liberal theory on government, othewise known as "stateism". God cannot exist because the state is god. Because the state is god it is responsible for all citizens welfare and must protect them from themselves. "Everything is in the state. Nothing is outside the state, or beyond the realm of it's control." This is EXACTLY how Mussolini difined fascism and totalatarianism. It was he who coined the word totalitarian after all. Lifelong socialist that he was.
"A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master and deserves one."
Alexander Hamilton
and finally, modern science
January 28, 2008 - 15:35 ET by TruthMongerand finally, modern science requires alot more faith than Christianity does...
There is a type of
January 28, 2008 - 15:38 ET by CapitalismRulesThere is a type of hypocracy that is used in many athiest circles that certainly backs that up. And it really is no mystery why. I think that with each scientific discovery, God is more revealed and man is even less important- that's just raw emotion there, but my personal belief nonetheless. Can God control gravity or defy it? Of course. But again, as you mention above, should God manipulate physical laws based on some cosmic game of proof of his existence? This tends to mock the nature and awesomeness of what I believe is the character of God.
If my son breaks his toy train and then says, if you can fix it, you must be my real dad and I will only admit that you are my real dad if this toy train is fixed. Sure I could fix it for him, but I would be terribly saddened that my son had such a narrow focus of what I have done for him or what I can do for him if this narrow range of present action was his litmus test for who I am.
Regardless, those who do not believe in God have very good reason for doing so- they want proof and understandably so. Sadly it is this very narrow-minded (I know they often say believers in God are narrow-minded, we've flip-flopped in this case) view of existence that will keep science guessing until the end of time.
God wants us to believe in
January 28, 2008 - 17:02 ET by TruthMongerGod wants us to believe in the ridiculous - walking on water, calming storms, turning water into wine, raising the dead...
He deliberately makes it difficult to believe...
must be a purpose for that...
I'll take the bait...
January 28, 2008 - 12:33 ET by tnculpWas supposed to be in response to Syrius
Seriously weak arguments. Tyson is simply preaching to the choir, pointing out things which he deems to be "stupid design." (a lot of which are theories about our unvierse that he makes but can't prove...the universe is going to destroy itself...at some point..probably trillions of years in the future...which is convenient because our history will probably be eliminated from record by then, making his theories useless.)
His entire position can literally be summed up like this:
Things can kill humans therefore there is no god. Or:
Humans aren't immortal therefore the universe is not built for us, and if it was, whatever did it, is an evil SOB.
That video in and of itself exemplifies the attitude of the left that there is no other opinion. He makes it quite clear that he doesn't want a religious person working in science. I'm sure Einstein (who wasn't a Christian but believed in some sort of creator...kinda like ID...) would have a few words for this guy.
In the end, it's the arrogance factor. This guy is so dilluted by his own self-loathing that he can't even explain why certain things are the way they are, that he has to blame someone else for his own imcompetence. Which translates into:
I hate God because I can't beat him.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is
blind."
- Albert Einstein (Intelligent Design Advocate, Moron)
Einstein
January 28, 2008 - 13:05 ET by iveseenitallGlad you quoted Einstein, tnculp. True geniuses like him and Rene Descartes figured this out long before a phony like Tyson. And they, unlike him, were humble people, not sarcastic "liberal" charlatans. He's a modern mountebank, who so easily fools the weak minded, whose intellect he is ever so slightly above .
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
Are you sure you want to be quoting Einstein?
January 28, 2008 - 13:07 ET by SyriusI'll quote him, too...you may not like what you see.
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
Einstein
January 28, 2008 - 13:17 ET by iveseenitallEinstein (and Descartes)believed in God ( or at least a "hgher power", if you want to play the semantics game).Now YOU, as well as Tyson, are smarter than they were? WOW!
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
Not Einstein...but you, maybe...
January 28, 2008 - 13:26 ET by SyriusQuotes, you wanted them...
Einstein responds to the accusation that he was
converted by a Jesuit priest:
"I have never talked to a Jesuit prest in my life. I am astonished by
the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit
priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist."
Syrius
"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott
Exaclty
January 28, 2008 - 13:44 ET by iveseenitallExactly. He was criticizing the Jesuits, the Catholic church, not anyone's belief in God. Read your history, the church vs. science debate is much more complicated than who or who does not believe in God. Just as many, if not more, scientists have believed in a higher power as have not. Yet they still disagreed with the chuches. Descartes ( who used mathmatics to demonstrate his belief in God) had to carefully word his vortex theory in order to avoid Galileo's fate. You are mixing apples and oranges.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
His words not mine...
January 28, 2008 - 13:49 ET by Syrius"During
the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution, human fantasy
created gods in man's own image who, by the operations of their will
were supposed to determine, or at any rate influence, the phenomenal
world... The idea of God in the religions taught at present is a
sublimation of that old conception of the gods. Its anthropomorphic
character is shown, for instance, by the fact that men appeal to the
Divine Being in prayers and plead for the fulfillment of their
wishes... In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion
must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that
is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such
vase power in the hands of priests."
"Thus I came...to a deep
religiosity, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of 12.
Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached a
conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be
true....Suspicion against every kind of authority grew out of this
experience...an attitude which has never left me."
All Einstein.
Syrius
None of that contradicts a
January 28, 2008 - 14:14 ET by Hero SquadNone of that contradicts a belief in a supreme being, however; merely that the had a question about the characterization of God made by man.
You can believe there are not actual "hands of God," and still believe in God.
Surely there must be an Einstein quote in there somewhere where he actually says, "I do not believe in God."
*****
"People only insist that a debate stop when they are afraid of what might be learned if it continues." - George Will
You're right, Hero Squad
January 28, 2008 - 14:48 ET by OldSailor88Here's an even better one;
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."-Einstein
Being an alcoholic, I spent a long, long time with religion and theism. I read a lot of Einstein.
Stultus est sicut stultus facit
Okay, it's time to agree with you...
January 28, 2008 - 15:15 ET by Syrius...but, before I do. One question...
Which God did Einstein believe in? Yours or his?
From http://skeptically.o...
"We
all know Albert Einstein as the most famous scientist of the 20th
century, and many know him as a great humanist. Some have also viewed
him as religious. Indeed, in Einstein's writings there is well-known<