MSNBC.com, But Not MSNBC, Runs Local Affiliate Story Showing Neighbor Defending Zimmerman
Jeff Burnside of Miami NBC affiliate WTVJ has a brief story accessible on MSNBC.com in which a fellow neighborhood watch volunteer defended George Zimmerman, who claims to have shot teenager Trayvon Martin in self-defense late last month. While the MSNBC network has been keenly following the Martin shooting -- Politics Nation anchor Al Sharpton is even planning to host a protest rally tomorrow at a Baptist church in Sanford, Florida -- it appears the network has not yet aired Burnside's minute-and-a-half long story this morning. [see video after page break]
Burnside's report focused on the perspective of one Frank Taaffe, a neighbor and friend of George Zimmerman's. Taaffe noted that there had been eight burglaries in 15 months, most committed by young African-American males.
"The stage was already set. It was a perfect storm," Taaffe said, explaining that Zimmerman was suspicious of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in light of that rash of burglaries in the racially-diverse Twin Lakes neighborhood. For his part, however, Taaffe didn't fully excuse his fellow security patrol member, admitting that Zimmerman was unwise to carry a weapon on his security patrols and that he was overzealous on that fateful rainy night.
"Taaffe says he splits the blame between Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman," Burnside noted, "Trayvon should have just explained who he was, he says, and Zimmerman shouldn't have had a gun."
Given how there's a rush to paint Zimmerman as motivated by racial animus, Taaffe's perspective is an important one for news consumers to hear. It's a shame if MSNBC opts to not air it in order to give its viewers a different, less judgmental perspective on Zimmerman.
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Comments
It's time to hold the race whore responsible for his failures
Submitted by Willis_Leon_Johnson on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 6:57pm.
Little al, the race whore, has always used racism as his only avenue to riches and fame.
It is past time to start asking ALL the race whores to HOLD THEIR PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE for their actions.
"whitey" does not owe them anything that they do not EARN.
sharpton owes it to his race to tell them if they don't like living as a second class citizen, then stop acting like one, get an education, a job and EARN YOUR WAY.
BTW, Mr. Zimmerman looks quite Hispanic, yet he is presented by the media as an angry, hate-filled, racially biased White European Male type.
Will the Hispanic community rise up and complain?
End 'gun violence in America' - Require training and MANDATORY "Shall Carry" by every Citizen.
If harry reid is the best person to lead the senate, what does that say about the other 99 senators?
➚ Won't happen, Willis
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Sat, 03/24/2012 - 12:26pm.
So intrenched in their belief that African Americans are hierarchically less evolved than Whites, why would Liberals expect anything other than the "pull the Democrat lever and get back to the plantation"
Who knows
Submitted by HockeyKid on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 12:45pm.
what actually happened? Certainly not most of the parties who are rabidly focused on it.
I'd be curious to find out if Zimmerman carried under permit every day, though. In my experience, people who carry under permit are the least likely to overreact because they've taken the time to carefully consider the consequences of their actions. On the other hand, there have been cases of "Dirtyharryitis" since the very beginning of neighborhood watch programs--and they are the last people who should be on a neighborhood watch. They also tend to be the people who shouldn't be carrying.
If Zimmerman carries daily, I think it's more likely that the situation called for the action he took.
"Beauty is only skin deep, but liberal's to the bone." - me
I'm glad there's a grand jury
Submitted by Ken Shepherd on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 12:51pm.
I'm glad there's a grand jury investigation into this. I just wish MSNBC would, you know, attempt to be a news channel and give all the sides of the story and then go to various folks for comment and analysis, rather than hyping one side of the controversy and pushing their preferred storyline.
I so agree!! This tragedy
Submitted by equusarts on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 6:07pm.
I so agree!! This tragedy isn't liberal or conservative but the MSNBC and their footsoldiers are certainly politicizing it. How sad.
That's OBE, Ken
Submitted by Galvanic on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 3:59pm.
Overcome By Events. MSNBC knows what the Truth is, and they're talkin' Truth to Power. Evening host and race-profiteer Al Sharpton is reportedly organizing some sort of march in protest.
MSNBC is beyond the point of no return on this one.
10 killed, 30 wounded in Obamaland last weekend
Submitted by frank14 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 1:23pm.
Yet MSNBC and Sheppo have decided this is more important.
Perhaps there is a reason
Submitted by Dan The Man 2 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:05am.
Perhaps there is a reason Time Warner Cable has not fixed Shep's internet yet?
Goes without saying...
Submitted by Dave the mailman on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 1:49pm.
Had the roles, um..the races, been reversed, none of us would have even heard about it.
As a non-white person, I can say this to other non-whites: when something happens between caucasions and other races, do not assume the white person is automatically at fault.
IF this guy is found innocent, I hope he sues Al Sharpton using whatever excuse he can find. THAT would be justice....
I would be more interested IF
Submitted by Willis_Leon_Johnson on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 2:46pm.
A hand picked jury by sharpie and his attorneys finds the race whore guilty to the tune of a few hundred million dollars.
End 'gun violence in America' - Require training and MANDATORY "Shall Carry" by every Citizen.
If harry reid is the best person to lead the senate, what does that say about the other 99 senators?
Wow, a new low to hit MSNBC and Al Sharpton
Submitted by vaboxrboy on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 3:50pm.
http://rickeysmileymorningshow.com/breaking-news/rickeysmiley/what-every...
The above link has the most complete and up to date facts from several sources. Please focus on that and not MSNBC's coverage. This is a terrible tragedy for the family and that community. Treat as such and not something that gives you fodder for your own agenda.
Newsbusters is not a crime blog. Or a news outlet.
Submitted by SickofLibs on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 3:59pm.
So let's hear why you think MSNBC is not reporting this particular angle of the story on cable, but did on their website.
Easy
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 6:38pm.
This isn't news. It's a neighbor trying to say the victim and the shooter are both to blame. What exactly does this add to the story?
⇒ A corroborative voice?
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 6:42pm.
Just sayin'. But your mind is obviously already made up, isn't it?
But how does it help advance the story?
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 7:37pm.
He doesn't exactly defend Zimmerman. He even says he shouldnt have had a gun.
Advance the story
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:09pm.
How does MSNBC leading a protest advance the story?
MSNBC becomes a story. Is that how you get your news?
delete
Submitted by motherbelt on Mon, 03/26/2012 - 10:18am.
delete
Be interesting to know the victims crime record
Submitted by Boudin on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 7:22pm.
Here in N.O. they started printing the victim police recored, so folks would see most murders are being done by other undesirables.
But, then a good guy Dad, stopped a car-jack, got dead for his efforts, but was busted for dope as a kid. Put all the libs down here in a quandary.
I have no idea what your post is trying to say about a
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 7:39pm.
good guy dad.
But, to your other point, I'm not sure I understand why the victims crime record is relevant.
Unless you think its ok for people with crime records to be gunned down.
I doubt it's
Submitted by Boudin on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 7:49pm.
My fault
~I can't find anything tht says the shooting victim
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 7:41pm.
was ever in trouble with the law, but the shooter has been arrested before. Here's his mugshot..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2116972/Trayvon-Martin-shooting-...
Something fishy here
Submitted by Boudin on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 7:55pm.
shot in a gated community
Gated communities where I live would have real problems with (Zimmerman reportedly phoned authorities 46 times) security problem such as this.
~Lots of fishy things
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:01pm.
Apparently Zimmerman called police over things like open windows. This guy was like the classic nosy little old white lady peering out of her blinds with binoculars, except for the whole armed, aggressive, confrontation seeking male part.
I like Nosy neighbors as long
Submitted by Dan The Man 2 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:09am.
I like Nosy neighbors as long as they dont get into my business. Nosy neighbors make for good crime watch.
Was I addressing you, Sweetheart?
Submitted by SickofLibs on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:45pm.
.
Zimmerman was described by
Submitted by tobiasdog on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 4:20pm.
Zimmerman was described by the police as white. According to his family he is also Hispanic.
He is NOT white.
hmmm so the police is kinda
Submitted by GreenTea on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 4:41pm.
hmmm so the police is kinda at fault for the uproar about the so-called racial aspect of this case? Yeah not even Al knows all the facts about this case yet he's going over there to protest because he thinks a white guy killed the teenager...racemonger
Call me crazy
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 5:50pm.
But I don't see how the neighbor helps the case. He just says the kid should have identified himself.
I'd like to know how an unarmed man poses a threat.
Depends sirdamage*
Submitted by cajun2 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 7:38pm.
First, what is a threat? Depending on where you live, the crime rate, drug use, poverty, may have effects on behavior that is viewed as a "threat". Read this excellent article about changes to a large city. The citizens no longer know themselves what or where is safe. Chaos and a society without boundaries will distort many of our views of the world.
http://theadvocate.com/news/1446948-123/high-homicide-rate-plagues-baton...
I won't call you crazy, either stupid or hopelessly naive
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:48pm.
How do you ever know if someone is unarmed or not on the street.
Have gun, DO travel: I have a CHL and never confirm nor deny when I am packing heat. The only people who could know I am armed are cops because they know what to look for.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
This tragedy should not have
Submitted by equusarts on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 6:05pm.
This tragedy should not have happened. Even if there had been 100 break-ins in the past week, that still did not give that man the right to shoot and kill an unarmed kid just because he didn't say who he was????
This Zimmerman, regardless of what his race is, seemed to have taken his "position" a little too zealously and I for one hope he is charged with murder because the facts definitely DO NOT point to self defense of any kind.
Since you are passing judgement
Submitted by Willis_Leon_Johnson on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 6:56pm.
Does this mean that you have all the facts to support your judgement?
End 'gun violence in America' - Require training and MANDATORY "Shall Carry" by every Citizen.
If harry reid is the best person to lead the senate, what does that say about the other 99 senators?
An unarmed boy was shot dead
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 7:06pm.
and the shooter is just being arrested now?
In what world is that A-ok?
In the reasonable world dipstick..
Submitted by sentry_99 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 7:11pm.
The one where all the facts are gathered and examined before action is taken? Why do you want the world to run on emotion? Why do you hate information and facts?
Let's not defend Zimmerman here
Submitted by dave_worrell on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 6:55pm.
In our haste to decry the news making into a racial and gun issue, let's not jump in here and defend Zimmerman. All he had to do was not follow this kid after the police told him not to. There was no perfect storm.
Is it within the realm of possibility that after Zimmerman followed him and approached him that Martin initiated some sort of physical contact? It's at least feasible. Those high pitched screams for help that ended after Martin was shot to death could have been from a 28 year old man with the gun.
But whoever initiated any physical contact, Zimmerman never had to leave his car. He never had to follow the kid. He never had to approach the kid.
Let all the facts be heard in court and let justice prevail, but you can only do that if the guy is arrested and the charges are brought against him. The police should have arrested him on the spot. It wasn't until all this outrage and these portests that the prosecutors even brought the case to the grand jury.
That is just flat out wrong. Race shouldn't even be brought into, but justice shouldn't be left out of it. If what this man is belatedly accused of doing happened, he needs to do jail time. A kid is dead, for goodness sake! A kid that did nothing wrong except "suspiciously" buy a snack and walk home.
Dave, I agree with nearly everything you said
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 6:57pm.
But, why do you think this guy was being followed in the first place?
Are you saying BrainDamage...
Submitted by sentry_99 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 7:07pm.
that this Hispanic man was a racist? Are you racist against Hispanics?
To the first question, yes, I am saying that
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 7:26pm.
To the second question....what?
Is that the new conservative standard? To call someone racist, is to be racist?
The cops told him not to pursue the kid, he did, and then he shot him. You don't think that deserves a charge?
Don't recognize yourself VD?
Submitted by sentry_99 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:34pm.
I'm simply copying your habit of asking stupid questions. Annoying isn't it? Maybe you get a small idea of how the rest of us feel about you.
I think all facts relevant should be investigated before action is taken. You think otherwise?
Sentry
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:35pm.
Nicely done!
But thats exactly the issue
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:40pm.
The police took no action, because they "found no evidence" that the shooter did not act in self defense, despite the 911 calls that suggest otherwise.
The man was not charged or investigated, but they made sure the victims body was tested for drugs. How could you justify this?
Why can't you read?
Submitted by sentry_99 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:44pm.
I don't think I've stated anywhere how I feel about this issue so how could I "justify this" one way or the other.
bkeyser has an excellent post below, READ it.
You claim he was not charged OR INVESTIGATED. That's crap. He was and most likely IS being investigated. Just because the police didn't immediately act according in the emotional, knee-jerk manner that you would approve of, doesn't mean they are not doing their job or there is some racist conspiracy taking place.
He's only being investigated now because this has
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:11pm.
become a national embarrassment. The shooting was a while ago. The police refused to investigate. The police did not do thier job, and thats why there is controversy now.
Okay...source it.
Submitted by sentry_99 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:26pm.
Please provide proof of your claim that the police "refused to investigate".
He's looking for it, Sentry.
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:22am.
As soon as someone posts a youtube video,he'll be right on it.
His other option is to get his marching orders from the Puffington Ho's or AC360.
You think what the police did was right?
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 7:34pm.
"Police in Sanford, Fla., declined to charge George Zimmerman, 28, saying they lack evidence refuting his claim of self-defense in the fatal confrontation. Under the 2005 law, called Stand Your Ground, Florida residents can use lethal force against an attacker if they believe their life is threatened, regardless of the location.
In recorded calls to police, Zimmerman describes following Martin in his car and calls him 'suspicious.' A dispatcher tells him not to pursue Martin, but Zimmerman persists. In statements to police, Zimmerman claimed that Martin then attacked him and he shot the teenager in self-defense, police said."
You think its ok to not persue this man?
Why do you hate law VD?
Submitted by sentry_99 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:36pm.
Do you hate police? You must hate Florida too right? You still going to keep asking stupid questions?
What source are you quoting, there, VD?
Submitted by UpNorth on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:48pm.
Is that a quote from a youtube video? An online article from MMoA? A reputable news source?
You don't mind my asking, given your penchant for making crap up on the fly, do you?
And, whatever your own source is, you might want to study the last sentence in your first paragraph.
Huffington Post
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:03pm.
I don't make anything up.
Here's a better source, containing the 911 phone calls:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/21/ac-trayvon-martin-t...
Damn, I called you an idiot, below
Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:35pm.
and then I saw YOUR link. You've got one woman hanging her entire theory on the hearsay evidence of a girlfriend of the victim and a supposed cell phone call, and the other guy saying, in effect, that's ludicrous. Brilliant way to stand on your position. You give idiocy a new definition.
I was going to call you an idiot, but BK beat me to it.
Submitted by UpNorth on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:47pm.
The alleged phone call, which didn't come to light until much later in the narrative, after the family and g/f had time to get their stories straight? And she "heard" Zimmerman push Martin? Not even to mention your reliance on Puffington Ho's and AC360? Time and again, you just have to prove that you aren't to be taken seriously.
Line to call VD an idiot starts
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:53pm.
Here.
VD is an idiot.
Next.
Vd is an Idiot.
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:23am.
Next.
Times ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 4:20pm.
infinity.
MD
VD is an idiot*
Submitted by cajun2 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 4:29pm.
NEXT!
Sorry cajun
Submitted by sentry_99 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 4:31pm.
I was going to get in line but MD broke out the infinity and I don't feel like waiting that long to get my turn.
*VD is an idiot. Any he hates puppies and rainbows.
LOL sentry*
Submitted by cajun2 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 4:47pm.
STAND YOUR GROUND....;-)
VD will still be an idiot when its your turn
So, where is it ok to hear the 911 calls?
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:22pm.
What sources are verified ok for your consumption?
Approved sources? Anything appearing at weaselzippers,
Submitted by Jer on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:32pm.
Ace of Spades, or Atlas Shrugged...including the comments.
Them's the rules.
Jer
Really, Jer?
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:27am.
I'd thought better of you, sad to see you taking up for VD, of all things.
Puffington Ho's is one of your "approved sources", right?
Knee jerk; he can't ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 4:25pm.
help himself because he is a lefty fighting for truth, justice, and the American Way against a swarm of conservatives.
You would think after all this time he would realize he was out swarmed.
That said, his lawyer life did kick in, as I saw a remonstration to VD and dave-worrell to 'wait until the facts were in'.
MD
Oh, lighten up, UpNorth...
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 6:44pm.
You should be able by this point to distinguish my good-natured jabs from more serious comments.
Jer
I guess I missed the smiley face.
Submitted by UpNorth on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 11:23pm.
Oh, wait...
Well UpNorth
Submitted by sentry_99 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 11:33pm.
Jer does not believe in smiley faces. I believe he told me once he does not have the time or inclination to interpet them or something. Help me out here Jer.
I do not believe in smiley faces or any other overt displays
Submitted by Jer on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 11:45pm.
of mirth.
:-(
Jer
Come on Uncle Jer
Submitted by sentry_99 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 11:44pm.
Get with the times man. OMG...LOL.... : )
Smiley faces is off the chai........you know what, you are right.
You and me, sentry...The Bah Humbug Club
Submitted by Jer on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 11:57pm.
But I'm President. And you're a dues-paying member.
BTW, they're overdue.
Jer
I demand a recount Jer
Submitted by sentry_99 on Sat, 03/24/2012 - 12:14am.
And I'm not paying anything until I get a hat. I cool one like the Shriners or the Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes.
Demand all you want, deadbeat...
Submitted by Jer on Sat, 03/24/2012 - 12:39am.
Pay up in full...plus late fees...and then my wife will send you an official Humbug beanie with a neat little propeller on top.
President, CEO & Armed Sergeant,
Jer
Armed eh?
Submitted by sentry_99 on Sat, 03/24/2012 - 12:51am.
You liberals and your violent imagery. However, I will never pass up a beanie with a propeller so....yes sir, the check is in the mail.
And my wife wonders why I ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Sat, 03/24/2012 - 4:50am.
sit in front of my computer and laugh, chortle, and guffaw.
Funny stuff, you two.
MD
Yep funny stuff*
Submitted by cajun2 on Sat, 03/24/2012 - 11:27am.
Well, we do need a laugh now and then to turn our heads from the crumbling world around us...You know things are weird when Jer makes us laugh.....;-)
Listened to the clip
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:09pm.
How do you hear someone pushing someone else? Particularly through a cell phone?
This is why the police hate to give details. This will be much better if it doesn't play out in the court of public opinion.
My fault
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:40pm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju3XIpipHBU
I posted the wrong video. Hear the tapes, not the analysis and hearsay.
I knew it, you never fail to measure down to expectations.
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:27am.
.
Why do I think he was followed?
Submitted by dave_worrell on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 7:36pm.
I think he was followed because an overzealous butthead thought he was gonna be Superman and catch a burglar.
I don't think Zimmerman was looking to go shoot somebody or else he wouldn't have bothered calling the cops in the first place.
I haven't seen enough to believe it was racially motivated. He told the police at first he looked black but he wasn't sure. By the time he let loose with the racial epithet, he knew he was black, but I think the overarching motivation was fear/anger at the previous crimes and wanting to be a hero.
He should still be in jail.
~Based on what I've read
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 7:44pm.
especially the part about Zimmerman approaching, accosting, and then running after the kid, I think Zimmerman was an overzealous jerk who chased, assaulted, and killed an unarmed boy. The kid obviously wasn't looking for a confrontation.
Maybe Bru, maybe not
Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:14pm.
Couple things come to mind. And let me begin by saying I know a lot about the potential of this kind of behavior from a teen.
One, the police did not make an arrest even though they know who the shooter is. Why? They obviously investigated the matter to some degree. It's possible they're building a case and an arrest is likely sometime in the future. It's also possible more has been found than has been reported.
Apparently this guy is well known by the local police and has been credited with helping solve several crimes and helping to preserve the peace in the neighborhood. Believe me, if he's made the number of calls to police as the article in your link above implies, they know him well. They obviously have some level of trust in him given their past cooperation.
Also, the fact that the dispatcher told the guy not to pursue the teen is not an indication that the guy was overzealous; more likely, the dispatcher was advising him to hang back for his own safety. That would be proper protocol for the police in a case like that. It's being portrayed in the media as a factor indicating guilt, but that's surely not the case and the State's Attorney knows that.
I would not be surprised to learn that the teen fit the description of at least one known criminal. He's 17 and shown in a football uniform in your link, so I would assume he was not a small kid, and in a hoodie, it would be impossible for the shooter to determine the kid's age. Especially at night. How many people might a "5'-10" to 6'-0" black male in jeans and a hoodie" description fit in a town that is 30% black? 50? 100? And how many of them might be known by the local police?
There are several conflicting points in that article. One shot? Two shots? Begging for his life? All of this supposedly heard by witnesses and heard on the 911 tapes? They also claim that a struggle was taking place prior to the shooting. How do we know this kid didn't attack the shooter? Maybe he was being hounded by the shooter, and then decided he'd had enough and attacked him. Believe me, this is possible. A 17 year old in this country KNOWS he won't face serious repercussions for something like an assault- he's a minor and if he's a thug, he's knows the deal.
Then again, this Hispanic being portrayed as a white racist could simply have overreacted as you indicated. But I place ZERO credibility in the family and surrounding community which is clearly framing this as a racial issue. That is always a clue. And they better hope that if this kid was completely innocent and the guy was overzealous, all this protesting doesn't lead to a rush to judgement; it'll probably backfire. I don't know anything about that town. I don't know what kind of crime they have there. But if it's anything like 9 out of 10 towns in America, the generalities I noted above are likely fairly accurate.
~Here's my take
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:38pm.
1, Based on the info I've found, the kid wasn't even jaywalking when Zimmerman confronted him. Apparently he was walking down the sidewalk with an iced tea, a bag of candy, and a cell phone. This means that Zimmerman confronted someone who was engaged in no criminal activity, and exhibiting no aggression.
2. What was said between them is unknown, but we do know the kid fled. Running away is not an act of aggression.
3, A neighbor said that Zimmerman was seen 'on top' of the boy and screams for 'Help' were heard. Now, does an armed man who accosts, pursues, and jumps someone scream for help? Or does someone who is being chased and tackled scream for help?
My first thoughts on hearing this story were along the lines of what you just posted, but after reading up on it I have no problem believing that Zimmerman went after that kid vigilante-style and the kid panicked and ran from a nutjob. Regardless of how things ended up, the kid did not provoke a confrontation.
It does look to me like that parents are going to milk this, and all the race hucksters will too, but that doesn't mean that Zimmerman didn't shoot an innocent kid.
Bru, I'm surprised
Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:13pm.
1. It was determined afterward what the kid had in his possession. How do we know the kid didn't drop a weapon during his run?
2. Who said he ran away, the girlfriend on the phone with him? NEVER take a teenager at face value, initially.
3. A neighbor responded to the noises and then saw a man on top of the kid. Maybe the kid jumped him from the rear and the guy overpowered him? He did say he acted in self defense. And when a kid threatens an adult, and then is put in his place by the adult, he will naturally scream for help. It's ingrained.
Again, it's possible the guy is what you believe him to be -I'm not his defense attorney- but I have personal experience with kids, including my own, and they way they act when their in trouble. Everything I've read, including your link (as I mentioned above) is indicative of a kid doing something he's not supposed to be doing. NOT THAT HE WAS, I don't know that. But his actions are not 100% indicative of innocence; it depends on your perspective.
There's another element possible here too. Kids are inherently smart assess. Maybe he didn't have a weapon. Maybe he wasn't someplace he shouldn't have been or doing anything wrong. But maybe when Zimmerman confronted him, the kid tried to pretend he was a thug. Maybe he was being a smart ass. Not a crime for sure. Certainly shouldn't have resulted in his death. But what if he acted as though he had a gun? Pointed the cell phone toward the guy from inside the pocket of his hoodie? Said or did something threatening? Once it became physical, for whatever reason, confusion and anxiety could have led to the gun shot. All I'm getting at here is the guy shouldn't be convicted before trial. We need to treasure our youth, but don't be fooled into believing they're all sweet kids. A lot of them aren't. I've got a 19 year old son. He's been in trouble. I know what I'm talking about.
Wow
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:20pm.
A new low for this site, I'm sure.
No one wants the guy convicted before a trial. They want him brought to trial. There is plenty of evidence for that.
Besides your plea for justice, the rest of your post is a strange defense for shooting an unarmed teen.
Hey, idiot:
Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:28pm.
what were the results on the tox screen for this kid?
Hey BK
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:42pm.
How is it relevant?
Come on
Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:51pm.
you're not that f'n dumb are you? If this kid was on crack, is it possible he wasn't the sweet, scared kid you and others are making him out to be?
Look, I'm not saying the kid was on crack or skittles. All I know is that an investigation is underway and there are a significant number of people convicting this guy Zimmerman purely on emotion -NOT on facts as you and judge and jury Dave_W(something) claim. The reaction is purely race-related. Black kid, no arrest, has to be racism. You may not admit it, but that's what's going on here. We need to let the facts play out. As I said to Bru, if the State rushes to charge this guy without a viable case, based purely on pressure from the community, they might blow it and let a guilty guy off. A slick defense attorney will embarrass them in court. If Zimmerman hits the road, we'll know, won't we? If not, then let the investigation continue.
If police actions become influenced by community pressure, objective, forensic law enforcement will go by the wayside. Do you want to be subject to those conditions?
thank you Bk*
Submitted by cajun2 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:57pm.
Your post is exactly my thoughts but said a lot better than I could. We must have faith in the justice system. We cannot allow "justice" to be decided by race baiters for the purpose of creating further divide in this country for political purposes. Justice should NEVER be based on politics or race.
ooh ooh I know this one! Call on me call on me!
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:02pm.
Yes Van is this f'n dumb. In spades.
You're embarrassing yourself
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:11pm.
I dont understand why you're trying desperately to shatter the "sweet scared image" you think the media is giving this kid. All they say is that he had no weapons or drugs on him.
Even if he was on crack, does that mean he deserves to be shot? How is it relevant to getting shot?
The facts don't really stand up to Zimmerman's claims. The death of a young unarmed man is certainly emotional. And the racial implications can not be ignored.
I'm not sure what part of this is not a viable case to you. The media response is what started the investigation in the first place.
Community pressure should influence police action. What do you think 911 calls are?
Do NOT feed the troll.
Submitted by NC Cop on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:24pm.
Do NOT feed the troll.
What's Zimmerman's race?
Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:50pm.
A 911 call is community pressure? (And I'm the one embarrassing myself...sheesh.)
The media response started the investigation? So what you're saying then is, a 17 year old teen was shot resulting in his death. Calls were made to the police and they did what? Nothing? Not respond? Conducted no investigation?
Then there's the call from Zimmerman. Here he is, stalking this kid, waiting to blow his head off and what does he do? He calls the police! That makes sense. Where was he, geographically, when he made the call? Do you know? Where was he relative to the physical altercation and the shooting? A half a mile? Or 20 feet? Tell me, idiot, what does the evidence say? Maybe the guy stopped following the kid when he was told to. Maybe the kid circled back and threatened the guy. Maybe then the guy tried to restrain the kid and the kid slipped away, running into the nearest backyard. Maybe then the guy caught him and in the struggle the kid went for the gun. Maybe then the guy, fearing for his life, wrestled the gun from the kid and shot him. But you know for a fact, based upon late-arriving eyewitness 911 calls, that none of this could have happened because ________ (← this is where you fill in the blanks.)
So, I guess we should rely on the media, which contradicts itself on multiple occasions AND who was not a witness to the incident, to pressure law enforcement into arresting someone. How many times do we hear of an overzealous police force arresting people without cause? Now they're not quick enough to put some guy in jail? In this country, at least for the time being, you're innocent until proven guilty.
Contradicting reports - nothing to see here
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:53pm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Rf4G0JOOk&feature=related
Boy , this is wayyyy too complicated. So many questions, not enough answers.
Well, guess I'll go home for the day.
I know this is complicated
Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:23pm.
but I already replied to this video where you posted it earlier. It hurts your case; it doesn't help it. You hear what you want to hear; you're ignoring the numerous contradictions. What the Police have an obligation to do is weed out the contradictions and get down to what really happened.
By the way, you didn't answer the one question I asked in the subject line: What is Zimmerman's race? I ask because you said, "the racial implications cannot be ignored." So, what races are we talking about here? What traditional stereotype are you promoting?
Just because I don't post every four minutes
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:40pm.
it doesn't mean im running , Copper.
The police aren't weeding out anything. They gave Zimmerman a pass because he said the words "self-defense"
His race is irreleveant. Why did he go after this kid? How many unarmed kids of other diverse backgrounds did he shoot?
Your initial instincts were correct, Vandamage..
Submitted by Jer on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:44pm.
Time to call it a day.
Jer
I appreciate your concern , Jer
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 6:19pm.
But I can take care of myself
That's very gratifying, Vandamage...
Submitted by Jer on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 11:10pm.
The uncharacteristic hostility in your post last night ("It doesn't mean I'm running, Copper") combined with its obvious misplacement--your response was clearly intended for NC Cop rather than bkeyser [a detail to which you remained utterly oblivious]--suggested the alarming possibility of cerebral hemorrhaging.
Jer
Again, you're confused
Submitted by bkeyser on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:54am.
I'm not a police officer, though I did have some training in law enforcement in the Corps. I'm coming at this from the position of "innocent until proven guilty" and the understanding that the outcry is largely based on racial elements and emotion because the victim was a teenager. It's natural, to some extent, for some people to let their emotions get the better of their judgement, but I'm not usually in that camp.
His race is relevant, at least according to you, who said "And the racial implications can not be ignored."
I'll save you the legwork though; "George Zimmerman is Hispanic and grew up in a multiracial family."
So, I'll ask you again: Which racial implications are we talking about here?
Still missing the boat
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 1:17am.
"Innocent until proven guilty" usually implies a trial will take place. And before the trial takes place, someone is charged with a crime. We're still not there yet.
This outcry is based on the fact that a boy is dead. He was unarmed when he was shot dead. Thats a major detail, and that is why most people are upset. They are not upset that the boy was black. They are upset that the boy is dead, and he probably didn't have to die. If you are a robot, and are unmoved by the death of innocent people, then I understand. But yes, humans are bothered by senseless violence, and wish that those who do harm to others for no reason are brought to justice.
It doesn't matter what Zimmerman's race is. I want to know why he seemed to single out this one guy and call 911 on him, then proceed to follow him, and then shot him, even though he was unarmed. If this guy has a habit of doing this to people of all races, id be astonished.
Simple question
Submitted by Unsane on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 12:19pm.
How do you know if someone is unarmed on the street or not?
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
That's it, coward. Run, like
Submitted by NC Cop on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:27pm.
That's it, coward. Run, like you always do when you get pounded on this site, which is pretty much every day.
The Media Response is what started the ...
Submitted by NL207 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 10:06pm.
Duke Lacrosse prosecutions.
This witch hunt will produce no more real justice than did that one.
Sharpton, Farrakan & The Lynch Mob
Submitted by Blonde on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 10:17pm.
....are stirring the pot for all it's worth, while Obama turns up the heat.
But according to the newest resident leftist, HE'S GOT TO BE ARRESTED AND PROSECUTED BECAUSE IT'S A NATIONAL STORY!
This country has gone insane. And the media is pushing the insanity drug....lies, damn lies, and bull****.
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
~That's what I want to know
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:46pm.
They say one was done but don't give the results. I've heard it can take 4 weeks, but hasn't it been about that long?
Hmmm, by providing another possible version of events
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:28pm.
you think BK is defending an unarmed teen? I think he's asking us to consider alternate possibilities. No where in that post did BK say Zimmerman shouldn't be held accountable. He put himself in the possible mind frame of the victim.
I thought liberals were all for keeping an open mind? Maybe you should close yours a little because the wind is whistling right on through.
If only that were true
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:44pm.
BK seems to be defending Zimmerman.
Sure, you can take a trip down "what if the victim truly deserved it?" but, why would you want to?
Listen to the 911 calls before you answer.
Again, you try to make an argument with things I've never said
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:59pm.
BK never said anything about the victim deserving it. No where do I see BK saying that. Since no one has all the facts yet, they are trading ideas and hypotheticals. Real adults often do this.
Now sit down and listen to the adults have a grown up discussion. You might learn something.
vandamage*
Submitted by cajun2 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:18pm.
Bk is not defending a "murderer".. But he is trying to explain "innocent til proven guilty". What part of that dont you get?
I didn't say he was guilty
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:36pm.
I said he should be brought to trial. The guy still hasnt been charged.
Dainbramage -
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:01am.
...and as much as I realize you think the police in this country should behave more or less like the Vopos, unfortunately for you the police have to figure out what happened BEFORE they charge anyone with anything. If the cops don't think there's enough to bring a charge, there shouldn't be one. But if there is, OK, we can see about a trial then.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
So let the cops decide what they want
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:44am.
and no one should have any opinion on the matter? because the cops are always right and never make mistakes?
amazing vandamage*
Submitted by cajun2 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:53am.
Apples fall from the tree and you automatically prepare to make wine.
Dainbramage -
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 7:27am.
Um, if you bother to read my posts throughout the history of NB you would be aware that I'm not exactly the biggest fan of law enforcement. But this is where they make their money. Investigation is there thing.
Have opinions ALL YOU WANT but right now the controversy you are enjoying is only hurting things, not helping.
Besides, what truly angers you is that this country's laws are based on individual rights and liberties, a concept which you look upon with contempt as stupid and outmoded. What YOU want are "group rights".
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
....Group rights?
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 2:31pm.
What does that mean? Where are you getting this?
Dainbramage -
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 8:05pm.
You support group rights.
Where am I getting this? From you.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
OK Braindamage....I will explain
Submitted by BEGRUNT on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 4:30pm.
for simpletons like you.......
1) The police investigate, gather evidence, and produce a report, to see if they have the elements to file a case for an arrest. If the elements are there, the arrest is made. This sometimes takes a while.
2) The District Attorney receives the case, and reviews it for prosecution. If the DA feels the evidence can lead to a conviction, the decision is made to prosecute.
Is that SIMPLE enough for you!??!
"A nation can suffer it's fool's, but cannot survive the traitor"
Cicero
The DA didnt get involved until the community erupted
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 1:55am.
And many on this site are disparaging the community for acting on "emotion" as if emotion is inappropriate when a young man is gunned down like this.
The police don't turn the case over to the DA until
Submitted by Radical1979 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 2:20am.
It has enough weight to charge someone.
The issue is that people expect the police to act upon emotion. They must act on the facts and the law.
A homicide detective wanted Zimmerman charged
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Fri, 03/30/2012 - 9:11pm.
The DA didn't want to take up the case.
Clearly, many disagree.
Perhaps because the DA
Submitted by Radical1979 on Fri, 03/30/2012 - 9:34pm.
didn't think there was enough evidence to convict.
It really doesn't matter what "many" people think. It's what the people in the justice system, and ultimately, a jury, if it goes that far.
Why do you think the DA is right?
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Mon, 04/02/2012 - 6:07pm.
What is it about the DA's decision that you agree with?
What information do you
Submitted by Willis_Leon_Johnson on Mon, 04/02/2012 - 6:23pm.
What information do you possess that the DA does not have to indicates a higher possibility of guilt than is currently known to Law Enforcement?
You keep pretending to know more than anybody else, including the 'boots on the ground', why is that?
Have you decided that it's better to cave to radical racist nutjobs than to protect the innocent?
Have you started a legal defense fund for Mr. Zimmerman so he doesn't lose everything he, and his family/friends have accumulated over the years to defend himself from charges that are politically motivated instead of fact based?
Why do you keep making it easy for the rest of us to look so smart when compared to you?
End 'gun violence in America' - Require training and MANDATORY "Shall Carry" by every Citizen.
If harry reid is the best person to lead the senate, what does that say about the other 99 senators?
➚ VD is spreading!
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Mon, 04/02/2012 - 6:29pm.
Racist Vandamage is back in the proverbial saddle again.
Yea, I have a video of, other 5 second screwdriver uses.
Submitted by upcountrywater on Mon, 04/02/2012 - 6:48pm.
Hay VD this works on them new serpentine belts too.... he was enrolled in auto shop class right?
You Didn't Build That.
Do NOT feed the troll.
Submitted by NC Cop on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:20pm.
Do NOT feed the troll.
NC Cop
Submitted by amyshulk on Sat, 03/31/2012 - 6:10am.
Personally, I just skip vd's posts and read the responses - NB posters are *very* good at including context to their replies, so really, there is no need for me to waste my time.
Ronald Reagan
~BK
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:48pm.
1. Couple of things on this one.
A. I can't find any history about the kid that would indicate he would be likely to have a gun. He doesn't seem to have any priors.
B. No weapon has been found, and I can't find any suggestion that anyone thinks he was armed, neither the police nor the shooter have claimed it. (in any piece I've read about it, anyway)
2. Zimmerman said he ran away. The kid ran and Zimmerman chased him, according to what Zimmerman said in the 911 call.
3. If you're walking along and a guy comes up to you and behaves in such a way that you run, do you pause at some point and tackle him? Also, the context of the situation indicates that the boy didn't threaten Zimmerman in any way. Zimmerman himself said the kid was walking along and he went up to him. Zimmerman instigated the situation. The kid didn't start it, he ran away, he was chased, he was caught and killed.
4. Zimmerman hasn't claimed the kid pretended he had a gun, has he? I haven't read every single account out there, so I don't know, but it seems like that would be mentioned somewhere if he did. According to the shooter's own account the kid ran from him.
I'm completely open to any facts that I haven't come across yet; I initially thought some young punk got what he had coming till I read up, and what I think about it now is based on the evidence available. The biggest point for me is that this kid didn't seek out confrontation, fled from it, and ended up dead at the hands of a man who calls the police about people leaving their windows open.
Bru
Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:09pm.
1. You won't find a history on the kid, he's a minor. His name won't be in any newspapers or any public court reports.
2. Zimmerman claimed there had been several break ins in the neighborhood. Clearly not a crime-free zone. He also said the kid appeared to "be on drugs or something."
3. He was caught and killed? That's a little strong, don't you think.
4. I don't know what Zimmerman claims other than he acted in self defense.
Again, I want to be clear. I'm not calling this kid a punk, a thug, or anything else. It's a real shame he was killed. Even if he was a punk, thug, etc., 17 is too young to condemn his future. I'd guess there's a good chance Zimmerman either overreacted or took his "neighborhood watch" role too seriously. And while I don't know what your area is like relative to crime, I do know what bad crime areas look like, and what areas adjacent to high crime areas look like. Leaving windows open could mean a lot more than a reaction to the temperature.
All I'm saying is people shouldn't rush to judgement and we certainly shouldn't be swayed by the new, en vogue, community reaction du jour: protesting.
~Bk
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:00am.
1. Being a minor doesn't mean that he's got a juvie rap sheet, so presuming that he does is assuming the kid guilty until he's proven innocent.
2. No area is a crime-free zone; the kid lived in the neighborhood, according to my understanding, so it was perfectly natural for him to be there, and he wasn't up in someone's yard peering into their car or windows, according to Zimmerman. The only justification (stated so far) for approaching him was the fact that he was there, walking. "On drugs or something" is about as vague as it gets. What is that supposed to mean? It's a completely subjective statement of perception that isn't backed up by any details, like a description of aggressive, erratic, or bizarre behavior of some kind. I'd like to hear exactly what Zimmerman meant by that.
3. "Caught and killed" seems like a bald statement of fact to me, since the kid obviously didn't get away and he's dead. Zimmerman called the police saying "he ran" and pursued him saying something along the lines of "These a-holes always get away". Get away from what? The kid wasn't doing anything worthy of pursuit, according to the statements of the guy who pursued him. He didn't say the kid was armed, carrying stolen property, trespassing, or that the kid had attempted to harm him at that point. So what reason did he have for confronting and then pursuing him? Suspicion that he might be up to no good at some point in the future? It doesn't make sense.
Also, if you're accosted by an aggressive, much older man, you run, he chases and tackles you, are you going to lie there cowering or struggle? What could be more natural than struggling and screaming for help? At 17, unless the kid was a hardened gang member inured to violence, a 30 year old man getting in your face, out of the blue, is frightening.
I haven't read the whole thread yet, 98 new comments since last night, but I've seen "innocent until proven guilty" several times so far, but it's only being applied to Zimmerman. It seems to me that provoking a confrontation with someone who isn't breaking any laws and then pursuing that person is a pretty good example of presuming guilt until innocence is proven. Zimmerman, from his own account and words at the time, presumed that kid guilty of something, without any evidence that has been given so far, and now the kid is dead.
It's a damn shame that there are people who would use this kid's dead body as a platform to push their own agenda, but that's no reflection on the kid's guilt or innocence. That idiot VD troll's self-righteous posturing doesn't mean squat, either. Let's not stick up for Zimmerman solely because the rabid Left is making hay out of the situation. There are a number of things about this that don't pass the smell test, and I sincerely hope that the people in charge of investigating this do a thorough and conscientious job.
He had a gun. The kid is dead.
Submitted by dave_worrell on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:42pm.
The kid had skittles and iced tea. Dude outweighs the kid by a hundred pounds. You can hear a high pitched voice screaming for help in one of the 911 calls. You hear the shot. You hear no screams after the shot.
There was no need at all to shoot this unarmed kid. The guy should have been arrested and booked.
He shot an unarmed kid.
Thanks judge.
Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:13pm.
Should we string him up now?
No, we arrest him and try him.
Submitted by dave_worrell on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:44pm.
Novel idea, huh? Arresting a guy who shoots an unarmed teen. Putting him on trial for taking an innocent kid's life.
What if the current evidence
Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:09pm.
doesn't support an arrest? Should he be arrested because the kid is 17? Should he be arrested because the kid is black? How about because Dad is in New York marching on the street? Good enough reason? Or, maybe the local police should contact you for your blessing?
The current evidence
Submitted by dave_worrell on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:19pm.
The current evidence is that a man with a gun followed an innocent unarmed kid against the advice of the police and shot the kid dead.
Yeah, I think that supports arresting him and trying him. And I didn't need to know either race of either party. I didn't need to know what his dad was doing. Didn't really need to know the age.
Unarmed guy gets shot by an armed guy who followed him against the advice of the police. That's a clear arrest in my book.
And that was before hearing the incredibly damning 911 calls.
As has been said, not all crimes can be solved in 60 minutes
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:27pm.
The intricacies charging and having enough evidence to convict might have caused the police to not charge the shooter. Hopefully they were continuing to investigate before the protests.
Police work should not be based on whichever interest group protests the loudest.
Well said, Rad.
Submitted by NC Cop on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:29pm.
Well said, Rad.
Not well said, Rad
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:48pm.
Please, watch the local news on this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Rf4G0JOOk&feature=related
The police REFUSED to charge this man. Thats why its a national news story now!
Good try, Van!
Submitted by NC Cop on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:57pm.
Did you actually watch the video link you posted? Because what I heard was a "witness" who was quoted as saying that she "believed" a lot of things, but only saw and heard very little.
Keep trying.
NC
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:03pm.
And she already had her mind made up about what should happen. I thought it was weird to refer to the victim as a boy. He was 17, most people don't refer to a 17 year old as a boy.
We see this a lot. People
Submitted by NC Cop on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:10pm.
We see this a lot. People start to see and hear a lot about a high profile crime and decide what should have happened based on emotion, not facts.
As police you sift through to find the facts..
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:13pm.
the media sifts through to find the emotion.
People seem to forget that
Submitted by NC Cop on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:20pm.
People seem to forget that the news is a business, like any other. When they sensationalize things, it's for a reason. If this guy is guilty of a crime he will be charged and punished.
Hello? Does the Duke Lacrosse rape case not ring a bell??
I'm betting the media will do their best
Submitted by Willis_Leon_Johnson on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 12:00am.
to instigate more racial tension in hopes of another riot.
The media has been fomenting racism and race riots since Detroit, Watts and various other cities including the "rodney king" episode.
The media discovered their ability to jack the prices for airtime commercials and have worked diligently ever since the early '60s to push discord and animosity.
sells printed papers too.
End 'gun violence in America' - Require training and MANDATORY "Shall Carry" by every Citizen.
If harry reid is the best person to lead the senate, what does that say about the other 99 senators?
Not to mention witnesses that appear
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 1:38am.
out of nowhere, who turn out to have been at work, at the bar, or or at home.
So on the basis on this woman's testimoney he should have
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:02pm.
been arrested? Is it possible the police were checking out the veracity of what she said? She obviously had an agenda.
I'm not saying that she's lying, I'm saying that we need to let the police to do the investigating.
....Agenda?
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:18pm.
Yea, wanting murderers locked up is a pretty good agenda, in my opinion.
The point is, there was no investigation. A un armed man is dead and nothing was done about it until the media picked up the story.
Something tells me if an unarmed Tea Partier was shot by an Acorn Employee, you guys would suddenly have a different perspective on adequate police work.
You don't see how that piece betrays your theory?
Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:05pm.
This guy chased this kid down? This 17 year old athlete?
She says "no punching, no hitting, no wrestling", yet other reports say the guy was on top of the kid and the kid was screaming for help. What?
Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head- according to the police. Self-inflicted, I suppose.
Then you've got some legal analyst throwing out the legal statute for not making an arrest on a supposition. Yet, there is a legal statute for not making the arrest and apparently, in the judgement of the investigating officers, the events met the guidelines of said legal statute. Now, maybe their judgement was wrong, but you're certainly not qualified to make that determination.
See, you're letting emotion guide you. I hope you never end up in front of an emotional judge.
You've got to stop linking stuff; you destroy your own arguments every time you do.
~I've wondered about that part
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:06am.
Zimmerman looks pretty hefty, not exactly your classic runner's physique, but then the pic I saw of him was 5 years old, too.
Anyway, where are the details about how he caught him? Did the kid run down a dead end? Trip? Is Zimmerman a runner? How long did he chase him? Virtually no evidence of any importance is being reported, and what is being reported doesn't make sense.
Personally, I think the media should have reported the bare facts and summed up with "An investigation is currently underway" and then STFU until there was something of substance to report. They're just fanning the flames like they did with that preacher who was going to burn the Koran on 9/11.
Yeah Bru, that was my point last night
Submitted by bkeyser on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:40am.
On one of the FNC shows last night -might have been Hannity- some woman was arguing for Zimmerman's head (of course) and described him as being 'like 500 pounds'.
Here's the first part of a burglary report from the same area filed Feb 6th:
This why I was advising caution last night- there's just a lot that we don't know and based on what the police were able to find out, they and the States Attorney detemined was not worthy of bringing charges.
Another tidbit I haven't heard reported: Zimmerman was not acting as Neighborhood Watch at the time of the incident- in other words, this reference to vigilantism or overzealous in the performance of his self-appointed duties is a wild mischaracterization. According to police,
A lot can be learned right here, but people need to filter out the media's agenda and biased reporting and instead look at the facts as they occurred.
~Another puzzling thing
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:05am.
"Observed him in the community and called the police".
Did Zimmerman report every young black male walking on the sidewalk? Why would you call the cops on someone who isn't skulking around in someone's yard or otherwise acting in a suspicious manner? If the kid was acting strange, or Zimmerman already knew the kid as a troublemaker, why doesn't Zimmerman say something specific about it?
"Hey, this kid I've seen near the scene of previous break-ins is skulking in the shadows in old lady Peterson's yard" or somesuch.
If there is something like that in the 911 call, it wasn't in the transcript I read, and I haven't listened to the tape because hearing it would get my pregnant lady emotions involved. So far I'm going on what I've read, and the whole story seems shot full of holes on a variety of levels.
Bottom line, the freakin' press sucks. The sorry SOB's are just looking for juicy details that get people riled up and get them some notoriety, and to hell with the truth. If they keep going this way they're going to get some riots going and people will end up dead. Talk about obstructing justice and disrupting the peace..
The entirety of Zimmerman's 911 call
Submitted by bkeyser on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:14am.
Remember, the context is a "spate of break ins" in the neighborhood in which he lives:
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/911-calls-paint-picture-of-chaos-af...
7:09 p.m. ET
Dispatcher: "Do you need police, fire or medical?"
Zimmerman: "We had some break-ins in our neighborhood ... and there is a real suspicious guy. ... This guy looks like he's up to no good, he's on drugs or something. It's raining, and he's walking around looking about. "
Dispatcher: "Is this guy white, black, Hispanic?"
Zimmerman: "He looks black."
Dispatcher: "Did you see what he's wearing?"
Zimmerman: "A dark hoodie, grey hoodie, jeans or sweatpants or white shoes. He's walking around staring at the houses. Now he's just staring at me."
Dispatcher: "Location?"
Zimmerman: "He's near the clubhouse right now. Now he's coming towards me. He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male. Something's wrong with him. Yep. He's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Send officers over here."
Dispatcher: "Let me know if he does anything else."
Zimmerman: "These a**holes, they always get away. When you come in go straight to the left ... when you pass the clubhouse ..."
Dispatcher: "Clubhouse?"
Zimmerman: "Go straight in. Oh, s***. He's running ... down towards the other entrance of neighborhood."
Dispatcher: "He's running? Which way is he running?"
Zimmerman: "Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood."
Dispatcher: "Which entrance is that, that he is running towards?
Zimmerman: "The back entrance."
[inaudible]
Dispatcher: "Are you following him?"
Zimmerman: "Yeah."
Dispatcher: "OK. We don't need you to do that. What's your name?"
Zimmerman: "George. Zimmerman."
Dispatcher: "Do you want to meet with the officer ..."
Zimmerman: "Tell them to come past the clubhouse and make a left then past mailboxes and they will see my truck ..."
Dispatcher: "What's your apartment number?"
Zimmerman: "It's a home. ... I don't want to give that out. I don't know who this kid is."
Dispatcher: "I will let them know where to meet you."
Zimmerman: "Have them call me, and I will let you know where I'm at."
~Thank you!
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 2:05pm.
That one is the most complete I've seen. So, according to that call, the two did not speak to one another out there on the sidewalk. That answers one of my questions.
Here's my take on the above scenario.
"Walking around looking about" ≠ on drugs, or criminal intent. On their initial meeting, Martin started to walk toward Zimmerman, stopped, then ran. So you're walking, it's dark, it's raining, and a truck stops in the street near you and a man gets out.
A woman in that case would probably take off running immediately, because she's psychologically prepared to be a target in that kind of situation. Someone with a guilty conscience, or already fearful about something like a gang hit or mugging would also be prepared for flight at the slightest sign of being watched or pursued.
A guy walking home through his neighborhood, not worried about anything in particular, could assume that a friend was stopping to offer him a ride home out of the rain. Until he got a closer look and realized that a complete stranger has stopped his vehicle solely for the purpose of approaching him.
I can't imagine any mindset in which being on foot, alone, in the dark, being approached by a stranger who has gotten out of their car in the rain just to walk up to you wouldn't be cause for alarm.
Zimmerman refusing to give his address, saying "I don't know who this kid is" suggests to me that he was close enough to the kid at that point to be in easy hearing range, and that he had no deadly intentions at that point.
sorry dave w*
Submitted by cajun2 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:34pm.
I hope you are not a member of the grand jury that will hear this case. Do you ever watch Law And Order?
The police must do numerous official interviews taking statements from potential witnesses. Rumor and gossip is not considered official statements. Then those statements must be transcribed. Reviewed carefully. Forensics takes longer than most people think. The DA then must review all evidence available. All evidence must then be presented to the grand jury. The jury will then decide, self defense, murder 2, or manslaughter, could be other charges depending on the laws in Fla. for possessing a firearm, discharging a firearm and so on. There may then be need for warrants and supoenas. Then there is a lengthy process to provide all this information to the defense attys, pre trial hearings, bond hearings, etc. Then they must select a jury and trust me, that is not as simple as it sounds.
Throughout this process, information is gathered along the way. Changes can occur at any time if that information changes the direction of the investigation. Premature action by the DA could result in a non conviction of a "macho" guy in the neighborhood who may have needlessly killed a young boy. Do you want that to happen? No, no one does.
Arresting the guy does not mean he doesn't get a fair trial.
Submitted by dave_worrell on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:51pm.
If there's an unarmed kid lying dead and an armed man who shot him, arresting the shooter is a reasonable pursuit of justice. It doesn't preclude him from getting a fair trial. It doesn't preclude a grand jury from assembling and submitting a true bill for trial.
I've been on a federal grand jury. Nobody who was arrested whose case came before us was denied due process because they'd been arrested.
If you guys have looked at the witness statements in the news and listened to the 911 calls and think an arrest isn't warranted, there's just no talking to you.
I simply want the guy arrested and tried for killing the kid. If he's found not guilty, then the system worked. But you shouldn't be able to pursue and gun down an unarmed, innocent person without being arrested for a crime.
Charge?
Submitted by Unsane on Mon, 04/02/2012 - 8:36pm.
How do you know if someone is armed or not on the street, or anywhere else?
P.S. The cops can't just arrest people as they damn well please. If you want cops to do that, I would suggest the United States isn't for you.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
You're no longer
Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:44pm.
worth responding to. Join a militia.
Join a militia?
Submitted by dave_worrell on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:54pm.
An unarmed, innocent kid gets who ran from an armed man gets shot by that armed man. I suggest the armed man should have been arrested. Not denied a trial, not arbitrarily punished, not summarily declared not guilty. Simply arrested.
And that's a radical idea in America?
What's the charge?
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 7:29am.
This will come as a shock to you, but no police officer can arrest anyone without something called a charge.
Seems to me that you are angry this is America and not, say, the Soviet Union.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Bk?
Submitted by Willis_Leon_Johnson on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 12:09am.
You realize that he has seed it all on the TeeBee box, an' he noze how it all wirks and da cops can doo all dis 'vestigatin' in less than 39 minutz, an' da trial and udder stuf onlee takes anothur 21 minutz?
Any word on where the entry wound is? front or back? How close to the victim when the shot was fired? Angle of penetration?
That might be an indicator of self- defense.
End 'gun violence in America' - Require training and MANDATORY "Shall Carry" by every Citizen.
If harry reid is the best person to lead the senate, what does that say about the other 99 senators?
WLJ
Submitted by bkeyser on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 12:21am.
Haven't seen anything at all on the wound. I'm guessing either the autopsy report hasn't been completed or is being withheld, maybe since Martin was a minor. It would be interesting to know though, wouldn't it. If its back of the head, then we've got an execution; if its in the chest, whole different story - especially if it exits higher than the entry.
bk..
Submitted by Jer on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 12:29am.
I definitely read--although I don't know where--that it was a chest wound. I don't recall any mention of the exit point, if indeed there were one.
Jer
"That's a clear arrest in my book"?
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:44am.
Good thing you do whatever it is you do, rather than law enforcement. Your city, county or state couldn't afford to keep you on the department, the costs in false arrest suits would rival Baracka's deficits.
And, the 911 calls aren't "incredibly damning".
I don't know what this jurisdiction's dispatch arrangement is, if the folks on the phone are actually officers, or civilians. So, you don't know either, whether Zimmerman was told by "the police" or by a civilian, that he shouldn't follow the kid. Yet, you're entirely comfortable saying, not once, but twice, that Zimmerman followed the kid "against the advice of the police". But you won't cut Zimmerman any slack, as far as his side of the story goes? Like I said, no police department or sheriff's department in the country could afford to have you on the force.
Still missing the point
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:53am.
He followed the kid, and he had a gun. The kid was being followed by Zimmerman, and was unarmed. Why should I cut Zimmerman slack, again?
I would love to hear Zimmerman's side of the story. Thats why I want a trial. But as it stands, this doesn't add up to a simple case of self defense.
Speaking of the Fifth Amendment,
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 1:14am.
what makes you think you'd hear a thing from Zimmerman?
I"m not a lawyer, but I've faced a lot of them over the years. And, I'd bet you any amount of money you'd be willing to lose, that maybe 1 or 2 of them would be dumb enough to even think of putting Zimmerman on the stand. Because, there's no way, with the relevant law involved here, that guilt of murder, beyond a reasonable doubt, can be proved.
No weapon was found? Meh, I've put men, and women, in prison for armed robbery, and they never carried a weapon. They DID create the fear in the minds of their victims that they were armed, a few without even saying they had a weapon.
You're proving my point
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 1:26am.
Why should I believe Zimmerman acted in self defense?
Who gives a flying F what you believe?
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 1:45am.
Seriously, are you really that dense? Never mind, we all know the answer to that question..
Jeez................this dope
Submitted by killa37 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 1:59am.
Jeez................this dope is STILL around??? I've had three long days in a row, and when I finally get home and cleaned up and ready to relax and catch up - all I see is this moron farting and stinking up all over the threads!!! And he claims to 'have a life'??
He actually claimed that he didn't post 'every four minutes'.................yeah, more like every THREE minutes!!! But what is worst is that - regardless of the subject matter or the topic or the direction of the conversation , he is ALWAYS the stupidist AND least qualified guy in the room................a whole lot like his Boy Baraka Hussein Sheik Yer-Buti Osama Obama!!!
Hey, Vacant Dummy - did I make a 'racist' comment just now????
Van?
Submitted by bkeyser on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 1:18am.
Did you actually read the transcripts of the 911 calls?
First, there were zero eyewitnesses. Second, there was only one gunshot, while the family of the victim is claiming there were two. Third, Zimmerman's shirt was wet on the back and covered with grass indicating he was on his back in a struggle. Not exactly the position of dominance unless you're a Gracie disciple. Finally, Zimmerman was arrested. He was placed in handcuffs and transported by police for questioning.
More info: Martin, 6'-0", 160lbs. Zimmerman, 5'-9", no weight given.
From the police report:
Update #2 from Sanford PD:
I'm sure you would love to hear Zimmerman's side of the story. And, maybe someday you will. But neither he, not the Sanford PD or States Attorney's Office is obligated to provide that information to you. Instead, maybe you could do your own research of the available facts rather than simply listen to the conjecture of an agenda-driven media and pols looking for a political edge. This will not go without the obligatory "gun control" calls from the left, which is surely the reason behind the sudden interest by the Feds.
Hmm, Bk 9 hours later, and crickets from our troll.
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:00am.
Whenever he's presented with facts, he runs. Maybe he's looking for the latest youtube presentation of "facts"?
Yea, I'm running
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:11am.
from the Internet.
None of that explains how an older, bigger man with a gun felt threatened by an unarmed man to the point that he had to shoot him.
Nice of you
Submitted by cocodrie on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:15am.
Nice of you to convict him without evidence or facts. Do you have a hot line to the investigating team?
We have plenty of evidence of your stupidity.
Jesus Loves You so much He died for you
I have no gun
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 2:25pm.
So come shoot me. I'm unarmed.
I'm not convicting anyone.
vd, That's good news, very GOOD news.
Submitted by upcountrywater on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 3:43pm.
In the history of the 911 call center, anywhere in the country EVER suggest, that anyone GO AFTER THE PERP?
Is the crime rate, up or down in that gated community?
One thing's for sure the shooter, will be WIPED OUT, financially.
You Didn't Build That.
So, brain dead,
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:28am.
how did Zimmerman get injured? Did he fall chasing the unarmed man? Did the ejected cartridge hit him in the nose? Did Martin assault him?
Go back and read what Bk posted about the police report, then, if you can, make an intelligent response....never mind, I'm asking you to do something you aren't capable of doing.
Cajun is confused as usual*
Submitted by cajun2 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:41am.
May be you guys can help out. I have read 3 articles this morning about this shooting. All three articles referred to Zimmerman at least 3 times as a "white hispanic"...What is a white hispanic???
If mixed race gets a color reference why is Obama called a black man? Should he not be called a white african american? He does like to brag about his Irish heritage.
Cajun is confused.../s
But cajun, you can't be confused....yet
Submitted by Willis_Leon_Johnson on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 12:19am.
If the idea of a 'white hispanic' gets to you, consider this,
obamas skin color/tone and facial bone structure look more like Anwar Sadat that any negro i have ever seen.
How come they don't call him and Egyptian Arab?
End 'gun violence in America' - Require training and MANDATORY "Shall Carry" by every Citizen.
If harry reid is the best person to lead the senate, what does that say about the other 99 senators?
Should we at least
Submitted by NC Cop on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:23pm.
Should we at least investigate first, Dave? Or do we throw that away because some people are up in arms about it?
Police investigate on the spot. That's what they do with a body.
Submitted by dave_worrell on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:42pm.
They get 911 calls, they show up, they see an unarmed dead kid and they see an armed guy who shot him. They interview the witnesses. They look for weapons. And when you find out the armed guy followed the kid and then shot him, you arrest him and enter him into the justice system.
This is how it should be done. It shouldn't need a protest to get an investigation.
People should be up in arms over a kid getting shot and killed and nobody arrested for it.
A just investigation would have him charged and booked, released on bail, and providing him a chance to defend himself. That's due process. That's not bowing to the pressures of protests or outrage. That's literally doing the least that should be done for justice.
Is this from your extensive
Submitted by NC Cop on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:02pm.
Is this from your extensive law enforcement career or just what you see on CSI?? I've been involved in many homicide investigations and you better damn well make sure you have a thing called EVIDENCE when you make those charges. Others, people like you would be screaming about false arrest.
Still not on board
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:14pm.
The story is that the PD has concluded that it was self defense, and refused to make an arrest at all, despite the overwhelming evidence that suggests the attack was unprovoked.
Then please show me the news
Submitted by NC Cop on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:47pm.
Then please show me the news story that quotes the police as saying it has been officially ruled self defense and the case is closed. Thanks.
No one ever gives me sources
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:53pm.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/03/trayvon-martin-case-timeli...
Why don't you guys provide a source once in a while?
Surely. What would you like
Submitted by NC Cop on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:07am.
Surely. What would you like a source of? That police need to be sure and use evidence to convict someone? All your source did was give a timeline of events that we already know occurred.
All anyone is saying is get ALL the facts before charging someone. Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend?
Perhaps you missed this little gem from your "source":
"The state attorney in Seminole County, Fla., announces that a grand jury will review the evidence of the case on April 10."
Whoa! Imagine that! A grand jury will review the evidence! Sure sounds like the way the justice system works in our country. Get a clue.
No, I didn't miss it
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:19am.
March 12: ABC News uncovers questionable police conduct in the investigation of the fatal shooting of Martin, including the alleged “correction” of at least one eyewitness’ account.
Sanford Police Chief Billy Lee said there is no evidence to dispute Zimmerman’s assertion that he shot Martin out of self-defense.
A week later, because of the backlash, it was announced that a grand jury wil review the evidence.
That is how justice works.
Dainbramage just flapping his gums for the sake of it
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 8:15pm.
You know what is amusing? You're all bent out of shape that Mr. Zimmerman isn't already in the slam. The way you talk now, you seem to be of the mind that the cops should have simply unloaded their magazines into Mr. Zimmerman on sight.
BUT YET, if the cops DID do that, you'd be the first person SCREAMING about how evil cops are, and how they are nothing but thugs and bullies.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Living up to your name
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Fri, 03/30/2012 - 9:09pm.
I didnt suggest the cops should execute Zimmerman. Now, you're somehow trying to call me a hypocrite, because of the non-existent views that you tried prescribe to me.
Take your medication.
WoW, FrEsH, off a bender, Mr 190 + postster...say sumthing new
Submitted by upcountrywater on Fri, 03/30/2012 - 9:18pm.
come on, tell us that the head wound really wasn't wasn't photoshopped er some such,drivel.
Hard charging no gun boy.
You Didn't Build That.
Yes!
Submitted by Unsane on Fri, 03/30/2012 - 9:26pm.
You are so sweet, saying I am living up to my name!
(SMOOCH!)
Now, what medication do I need?
(You have given every indication that you are angry that ZImmerman is not going to be arrested until the cops think they have enough evidence to pursue a charge. So hell yes you want Zimmerman strung up. And if the cops just blasted Zimmerman on the spot, you would have been cheering.)
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Now THIS is 'reporting....
Submitted by Willis_Leon_Johnson on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 12:26am.
"ABC News uncovers questionable police conduct"....
"Questionable" in whose opinion? abc news? Hardly reliable to question anything other than did they put it away before or after they were done in the bathroom.
From the 'Way Back machine":
The Carrier Fleet and all supporting vessels docked in a port in Egypt for Christmas. Scheduled date to put to sea was Jan 12th.
After an uneventful 2 weeks of R&R over the holidays, the fleet readied for sea and set sail as scheduled 6 months in advance.
As it was reported on the national networks?
"The fleet SUDDENLY LEFT PORT TODAY!"
And you believe anything the media 'reports'?
Oh you are a silly childlike creature....
End 'gun violence in America' - Require training and MANDATORY "Shall Carry" by every Citizen.
If harry reid is the best person to lead the senate, what does that say about the other 99 senators?
NC Cop. Some sources say Zimmerman was bleeding
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 1:02am.
from the back of his head and from his nose. What is the police protocol in such cases other than noting it in the investigative report?
Jer
Jer, if it were me, I'd photograph him.
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 1:19am.
And, urge him to get treatment. He doesn't have to, I'm sure you know. But, it should have been noted by someone at the scene.
Jer
Submitted by bkeyser on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 1:22am.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ken-shepherd/2012/03/21/msnbccom-not-msnbc-...
Thanks, bk...
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 1:32am.
Jer
And UpNorth, too.
Jer,
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:30am.
The police report excerpts that BK posted covered it quite well. The injuries have been documented.
Ah, the police report
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 2:20pm.
which also explicitly states that Zimmerman was not questioned about the incident.
That sound right to you?
You MUST be kidding....or retarded.
Submitted by sentry_99 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 2:29pm.
bkeyser linked to the report above you idiot. You should read it. In fact, I'll post what it says.
"Zimmerman was placed in an interview room at SPD, where he was interviewed by Investigator D. Singleton." Is that explicit enough for you. I'm now starting to wonder if you are really this dumb or if you are just a flat out liar.
I'm shocked!!!
Submitted by NC Cop on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 11:14pm.
VanDamage is once again proven to be uninformed so he ignores this fact and moves on.
How typical.
Wow! That has to be a highly edited timeline!
Submitted by bkeyser on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:32am.
Purely agenda-driven. You shouldn't be upset at the police if this timeline is true, you should be upset with the Office of the States Attorney.
Sometimes, you have to be smarter than the 0's and 1's on the page.
Agenda- driven
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:37am.
You think people wanting a murder investigated is an agenda?
Why should I be upset with the Office of the States Attorney?
How do you know there is no investigative file on this?
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:48am.
Who showed you that the officers on scene just showed up, bagged and tagged, and just made a note of the occurrence on their daily log?
Read about the police response
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 1:03am.
I'd give you a source, but you would tell me my sources are biased.
So find your own sources. I already linked to some. If you don't want to read them, find your own sources that say the police investigated this right away.
It's extremely hard to read a Youtube video, VD.
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 1:22am.
But thanks for playing, you have no sources, you have no facts, other than an ABC timeline, which just "happened" to discover a girlfriend who was on the phone that night, but waited almost a month to come forward, at the urging of the family lawyer. IOW, you got nothin'.
Facts
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:03am.
An unarmed teen is shot dead, and the killer remains free. And in the world you live in, thats perfectly ok.
~More BS conjecture
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:19am.
So you're a mind reader now? Oh my, thank you for sharing your insights. You should stand up when you speak so your voice isn't muffled; we wouldn't want to miss any of these gems of wisdom.
The point is that the shooting should be thoroughly and dispassionately investigated without bias, so you can put the rope down and go home, dipwad.
Thank you Bru*
Submitted by cajun2 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:57am.
All of my posts last night are summed up in your last sentence. Should have waited for you. Well done.
~My pleasure, cajun
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:26am.
I think VD has thoroughly worn out his welcome. Have fun with him; I'm off for a bit to get lunch and put the boys down for their naps.
Thanks, Bru
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 2:16pm.
It seems like most of your posts don't favor Zimmerman. But I'm the bad guy for not favoring him?
I don't appreciate people telling me I have no facts or sources, and that somehow this is a big national story based on some "agenda."
I'm not trying to hang anybody. I'm simply suggesting this man should be brought to trial. I've made that clear throughout this thread.
~Take the blinders off
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 2:28pm.
This story is being used by the hard Left and their race huckster minions to promote their agenda. Why do you think this guy is being portrayed as white when he's not?
All you've done here is whine and make asinine, racist assumptions about people.
because in your mind , black people deserve to be arrested in thier own home?
Except you, who apparently think its perfectly reasonable to arrest black people if they say mean things about you.
Go gnaw circles in a meadow and keep away from me with both feet.
Those quotes are out of context
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 2:02am.
and context is everything.
No one can explain why Gates deserved to be arrested.
And no one can explain why Trayvon Martin had to be shot.
But certainly, when black people ask for justice, its just an emotional agenda. Nothing to worry about, go back to your homes, folks.
braindamage LIES again.
Submitted by The Vet on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 2:07am.
braindamage2000: No one can explain why Gates deserved to be arrested.
LIE. It is the law in this country that you must be informed of the charges against you and told of your rights. The arrest record listed EXACTLY why he was arrested.
Oh you mean here troll? Yeah, trolls have a right to be told every little thing they demand. That is teh interwebedness law. We so sorry for breaking it.
The Dainbramage view
Submitted by Unsane on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 12:22pm.
Gates didn't deserve to be arrested because Gates (in your view) has many more rights and privileges than others. The cop who was doing his job should have been summarily executed for not recognizing the concept of group rights.
Anyone who even looked at Martin wrong should likewise be summarily executed (in your view) due to the concept of group rights.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
My last effort vandamage*
Submitted by cajun2 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 2:35pm.
Nowhere in my posts or others do I see support for Zimmerman. What I see is support for the legal system to bring justice. Justice should never be due to emotional rants, riots, or bias.
Posters have been trying to explain to you the proper police protocols and the judicial criminal process. IF there is not sufficient information for an arrest, which may be different from state to state, the DA takes the case before a grand jury. The jury decides a charge then the DA must prosecute.
The police reports are turned over, police and witnesses can testify before the jury. In fact, the jury can supoena witnesses and evidence independant of the police dept investigation. Better to follow the prescribed letter of the law and legal process to make sure that there will be no errors. If it is then determined that Zimmerman caused a needless death, then he should and will be punished.
A tragic death of a young man is difficult to bear. There is no clear evidence against either the boy nor Zimmerman at this point. But the demonization of one or the other without clear and distinct evidence of a crime is unacceptable. If distortion of truth is the method of obtaining a predetermined rule of justice then our justice system isnt worth do-squat.
Ahh, the justice system
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 3:39pm.
I noticed a pattern with conservatives and crime. I even wrote a chant about it.
"Acorn...GUILTY!
Voters without photo ID...GUILTY FRAUDS!!
Climate Scientists.....LIARS!!!
George Zimmerman....Hey, let's wait to see what the facts are, because you never know, we would hate to rush to judgment and hurt the feelings of an innocent person, let's just take a step back and let the justice system run its course , ok everyone?
Derrick Bell....DEAD RACIST PROFESSOR!!!"
The VD in your brain...
Submitted by sentry_99 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 4:07pm.
has made you delusional.
Acorn had funding cut, they weren't prosecuted. Has nothing to do with the justice system. Many wanted it to be INVESTIGATED further but....didn't happen. Fail
This is that making s&%t up thing I mentioned a moment ago. Please clean your hands after pulling this out of your....anway, Fail.
George Zimmerman shouldn't have the same rights as say MUMIA...FREE MUMIA and all right?? Well Mumia did get a trial and many appeals. Old George should get the same right? Why do you hate white hispanics? er...Hispanic whties?? Either way....Fail
Derrick Bell gets you partial credit VD in that you are correct. He is in fact dead. Good job. I'm taking extra credit since this again has nothing to do with the justice system. Fail
This is really pathetic VD. In a funny way though. Enjoy
Warped hero worship
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 8:18pm.
I have no doubt Dainbramage looks at Mumia as some sort of hero. "Hey, he whacked one of the pigs, man!"
From what I see of the posts here the only thing the cops can do to win Dainbramage's approval is to shut down their departments and disband entirely.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
You don't think Acorn should be investigated further?
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Fri, 03/30/2012 - 9:05pm.
Yes, I do want Zimmerman to get a trial. Thats the whole point of this controversy.
I'm not sure how no charge for Zimmerman is justice to you.
No, VD, that is NOT the whole point of this ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Fri, 03/30/2012 - 9:15pm.
controversy.
Your side feels Zimmerman should be arrested and tried; reasonable people feel there should be an investigation in order to determine whether or not Zimmerman should go to trial.
MD
~Dipwad
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 4:13pm.
See here.
The Police investigate
Submitted by bkeyser on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 1:24am.
the SA issues charges based on their assessment of the investigation.
I expect not many people here are law enforcement
Submitted by dave_worrell on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:24pm.
One person asks if I watch Law & Order and one asks if I watch CSI. (Neither, as it turns out.)
How many of the homicide investigations you've been involved with included an armed man admittedly intentionally shootingtand killing an unarmed man outside? Of those, how many of the admitted intentional shooters were not taken into custody within three days of the shooting. Within a week of the shooting?
I mean, if this happens all the time and there's a complete snowjob by the media where they refuse to acknowledge it's common practice to not arrest an armed man who admits to killing an unarmed kid, I'm completely prepared to admit I'm simply ignorant of procedure.
But I'm still trying to figure out how thinking an armed man who pursued, intentionally shot, and killed an innocent and unarmed kid should be arrested and tried is a radical idea in the United States of America.
No, not many are law
Submitted by NC Cop on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 11:38pm.
No, not many are law enforcement. The difference is they're calling for a thorough investigation. You're calling for a knee jerk reaction based on the evidence given to you by the media who do NOT have all the facts. They're right, you are wrong,
Your idea is not radical, just ignorant. You have no idea what transpired during that incident and we may never know. However, investigations can take days, even weeks, some years before enough EVIDENCE is uncovered to make a charge. It's the difference between real world and tv world police work.
Law and Order Dave*
Submitted by cajun2 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:03am.
There was a reason I suggested LnO. Just to give you an idea of the complexities involved in a criminal investigation. There are several posters here that have experience in police work. I was not a police officer but did work in "enforcement" and was an investigator for 30 years. The criminal statutes in every state are different. The protocols for law enforcement however are much the same. And there is a reason for that commonality. There must be clear objective methods of gathering information to avoid emotional outbursts with the intent to influence outcome. Emotional reactions to tragedy will occur since we are human. But that is why the laws are clearly written to be objective and accurate in order to obtain justice.
Several posters have tried to explain that to you Dave but you seem to continue to miss the substance and far reaching implications of that information. As other posters have stated, how would you feel if police arrested you in a rash move before proper investigation was done?. Innocent til proven guilty exists for a reason...
BTW ...I conducted about 14 fatality investigations, about 9k overall investigations, testified before criminal court juries about 1000 times, testified before grand juries about 100 times, and have worked with State Police, local police, Sheriffs Dept, US Marshalls, FBI, Prob and Parole, DOJ, state dept Atty Generals Office, etc. My remark about you watching Law and Order was my attempt at snarky.
Interesting to note, we have a lawyer as a member of NB and he has refrained from posting...trust me if he had, you would be even more dismayed.
Hopefully, you have learned something. Not all conservative sites are filled with ignorant toothless yahoo rednecks. Next time, come better prepared.
A few words for the liberal "jump to conclusions" crowd:
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:23am.
Brawley, Tawana
Duke Lacrosse
Loughner, Jared
Wait on the facts.
Jer
Casey Anthony OJ Simpson Just
Submitted by Dan The Man 2 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:26am.
Casey Anthony
OJ Simpson
Just to add a few more.
Not all conservative sites
Submitted by Dan The Man 2 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:24am.
Not all conservative sites are filled with ignorant toothless yahoo rednecks.
So I am the token ignorant toothless yahoo redneck? Dang thats good ta know.
Funny Dan the Man*
Submitted by cajun2 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:45am.
Cajun never quite pictured you that way...;-)
Lets look for the token ignorant toothless...ya know
I'm not dismayed and anyone who wants to post is welcomed.
Submitted by dave_worrell on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 1:17am.
Just to clear up a few things that seem to have slipped by you.
1)I'm a conservative.
2)This is the main conservative site I frequent, although I rarely post. I'm well aware of the level of discourse here, both positive and negative.
3)I may not watch Law & Order, but I do have a basic idea of how the legal system works.
4)Disagreeing with a point or that point's use in a discussion does not equate to missing a point.
5)I made many of the same points you guys made until the evidence, real evidence that hasn't been denied by the police or Zimmerman, was too much to ignore.
6)If police arrested me after I chased an unarmed kid against their recommendation and shot him dead, I'd feel like I shouldn't have chased an unarmed kid down against police recommendation and shot him dead.
And if a man shot my unarmed, innocent son with skittles and iced tea on him and the police didn't arrest that man or do a proper investigation based on the obvious facts in front of them? Well, you didn't ask, but I'd be a little miffed.
7)I want an investigation. I'd love a real investigation. An investigation on facts and evidence. Not phantom evidence that might pop up years from now if anyone ever actually looks, mind you. Not fantasy what-if fairy tales about things that might have happened except woe is us we just don't know. A real investigation that starts out with the guy who admitted to shooting an unarmed kid is arrested for shooting an unarmed kid.
Of those 14 fatality investigations, how many included an armed person shooting an unarmed person outside and admitting he did it? Of those, in how many was the shooter not taken into custody within a day? Within three days? Within a week?
See, people keep talking about how they don't want to make a knee jerk reaction and investigations take weeks and months and sometimes years. But the investigations of specific types of cases don't take years or months. Or even weeks.
A crime that is committed where a dead body is found and a live man is found over him with a gun and he admits to killing him, that's typically not a case that's going to take years of investigation. If you actually investigate.
You interview witnesses, you review the 911 tapes, you look for any physical evidence in the area, you do an autopsy and blood work for the shooter and the victim. (Except they didn't do any bloodwork for the shooter. Oops.)
After that, you're not likely to get brand new evidence. Blood work will take a while to get back, or so tv and books tell me. But they're not likely to be waiting for a clean result from Martin before arresting Zimmerman. Autopsy might take a few days, but when the cause of death is known and admitted to, that's probably not something that's holding them back from an arrest. You might find extra witnesses later on, but that's not going to keep you from relying on the ones you have, and they aren't saying it was self defense. The 911 tapes have a high pitched voice screaming for help until the shot rings out and the cries for help stop. Other 911 tapes clearly have a police officer recommending Zimmerman not pursue Martin and Zimmerman himself saying Martin is running and trying to get away.
All of that is evidence. And it's evidence that doesn't look good for the armed man who shot an unarmed kid. You can claim there are reams of evidence that made these police officers decide it was a self defence shooting, but the police themselves aren't even hinting that such evidence exists or that they're conducting an ongoing investigation. By all appearances it was based on his claim and a couple wounds that didn't require hospitalization. You can claim there are reams of evidence that go beyond what's apparent, but that's complete conjecture that the police and Zimmerman don't support.
Arresting Zimmerman based on the known evidence that neither the police or Zimmerman himself have contradicted isn't close to a knee jerk reaction. It's not emotional. It's based on evidence, logic, and a firm grasp on reality, not what-if scenarios that have no evidence or on fantasy evidence that might somehow turn up years from now.
I'm happy to say I expect justice will prevail in this case. I'm sorry to say it will be in spite of the police.
And I get to go to bed tonight knowing I'm supporting justice and a real investigation into the case and not paying lip service to it while turning a blind eye to the tragic death of an innocent unarmed kid.
No, dave_worrell, you are not supporting ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 2:49am.
justice and a real investigation; you are merely providing your opinion of what you feel should have happened at the scene; and how you feel about what did transpire based on info that is not necessarily 100% accurate at this time.
Just because you throw out the phrase "tragic death of an innocent unarmed kid" over and over and over does not prove the kid was unarmed; it most certainly doesn't prove he was innocent; and doesn't really establish that as a seventeen year old, he was actually a "kid".
While he likely was 'just a kid', chronologically speaking, your insistence on using the word "unarmed" to describe him is fatuous.
You weren't there, and you don't know whether he was armed or not.
You are entirely too quick to place credence in what you believe happened, while at the same time denigrating what others here have said.
Your prefacing 'the tragic death of an innocent unarmed kid' with "while turning a blind eye to" bespeaks someone who has issues with law enforcement.
If that is not the case, then you appear to be coming across as more of an opinionated bleeding heart liberal type.
MD
Wow, Matt
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 2:35pm.
"Just because you throw out the phrase "tragic death of an innocent unarmed kid" over and over and over does not prove the kid was unarmed; it most certainly doesn't prove he was innocent; and doesn't really establish that as a seventeen year old, he was actually a "kid"."
How are we going to discuss this story if we can't get the basic facts right.
There was no weapon found on him.
And, what word do you prefer they use, if not "kid"? Is "teen" better?
And yet, you ignore one of the laws of Florida?
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 11:39am.
A law that states no one has a duty to retreat? And you call selectively choosing which laws apply in this case is you "supporting justice and a real investigation"? From what I've read, you don't really care about the relevant laws, you just want Zimmerman arrested, the facts and circumstances be damned.
But, don't worry, Eric Holder will ride to the rescue and charge Zimmerman with a "hate crime", or a civil rights violation.
Stand Your Ground is not being ignored
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 3:46pm.
It's being debated now, and should be repealed.
How safe do you feel, knowing someone can shoot and kill you, and can go free if the state can't prove it wasn't self defense?
According to the phone call, he didn't have to confront the guy, but did anyhow. Doesn't sound like self defense...
Yes, of course stand your ground should be repealed
Submitted by Radical1979 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 3:53pm.
Americans should be forced to flee in the face of home invaders. Why should we be allowed to defend what is ours? Retreat, run away! Hasn't that been the clarion call of Americans since the beginning?
To borrow a Matthew Dean phrase, what a putz you are.
Gee
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 4:24pm.
I didn't realize the teen was in George Zimmerman's home.
Well he was, as far as I can tell from the reports
Submitted by Radical1979 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 4:32pm.
Inside a private, gated, community. No that in and of itself does not mean the victim should be shot. My comment is in regards to the stand your ground law.
I'm not concerned about rights of home invaders
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 4:40pm.
I'm waiting to hear why this guy had to be gunned down.
~You miss the point even when you're impaled on it
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 4:43pm.
Impressive.
Bru
Submitted by Radical1979 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 4:50pm.
This guy is really making me laugh. He brings up a topic like the stand your ground and then looks around in bewilderment when it's being talked about like a kid with crumbs all over his face denying he was in the cookie jar.
~Must be his first venture outside the lib echo chamber
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 5:03pm.
They're used to nods and grunts of agreement around the nonfat vanilla chai soy latte machine.
Ah, so you criticize a girl for "hearing" someone being pushed
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 4:06am.
and then you describe a person on an internet site "looking around in bewilderment"?
What does that mean?
Stand Your Ground is being blamed for the lack of action from police, and is being debated in Florida now.
Under Stand Your Ground, Florida becomes the Wild West.
Correction, VD, Stand Your Ground prevents ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 4:28am.
Florida from becoming the Wild West.
"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."
MD
Who? Huh? Wha? Hun?
Submitted by The Vet on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 4:29am.
But what does it mean? Poor trollie. Looks like you will never get your question answered. Big Bad Word Bullies don't even care.
Interesting...
Submitted by Unsane on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 12:29pm.
Really? TX has similar laws and it is far from being the Wild West.
You may want to look at a weird, yet nasty, fact: places where the citizenry are allowed to exercise their right to self-defense have a lower crime rate. DC and NYC look far more like a 21st Century Wild West, and they have some of the strictest gun-control laws in the country.
Did you know that in Switzerland, every male is required to own one of two types of firearms? So, why is crime a rarity there? Why isn't Switzerland the Wild West?
Face it, Dainbramage: the one thing the cops are indisuptably good at is the investigation of crime. They can deter crime to an extent but they cannot prevent it and are not designed to intervene as crime occurs. Within those gaps you have the citizenry, and it is better to have them armed to the teeth so that they can defend themselves if need be.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
And that reply, VD, to Rad, demonstrates precisely why ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 4:50pm.
you are a putz.
MD
In praise of good law
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 8:26pm.
Negative. Stand Your Ground is an AWESOME law. TX has something similar called "the castle doctrine".
You hate cops anyway, and yet, you trust them with everything. Strange. Anyways, even if I thought the highest possible thoughts and respect of cops (they threw that out the window when two dectectives thought that lying to my face was great police work 15 years ago, but anyways), they are not going to be here at the exact instant I need them. If someone kicks down the door at my apartment, the SOB is going to face a hail of 9mm hollow points.
And, according to TX law, I have no duty to retreat. The cops will come by and do an investigation - which will be easy, for in this example they get to look at a busted door frame, and a dead perp on the ground, with a guy who lives there having squeezed off the rounds. Easy enough to figure out. They take a statement, the SOB gets tagged and bagged, and all is good with the world.
I have no interest in ceding my right to self-defense to the cops just because of mealy-mouthed whining infants like you. As the Koreans say, "The law is far, the fist is near." Or, as we say here, "When seconds count, the police are minutes away."
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Unsane...Maybe you and TX could lend FLA a hand...
Submitted by Jer on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 5:24am.
because the folks there evidently don't know their ass from page eight. The law is a freakin' mess, the cops don't know how to interpret it much less enforce it, nor do the prosecutors, many of whom were and still are opposed to "Stand Your Ground". Murdering gang thugs have gotten a pass because of this pile of legislative mush. Basically it allows--at least in effect if not intent--an individual involved in an argument which perhaps escalates to a punch to pull out the heat he's packing and blow his "assailant's" brains out...and then claim he was in fear of a violent felony being committed against his body.
From the Orlando Sentinel:
The decision on whether Zimmerman will be charged with murder, manslaughter or exonerated for killing 17-year-old Martin will be made by Seminole-Brevard State Attorney Norm Wolfinger, who joined other prosecutors in lobbying against passage of "stand your ground" six years ago.
Wolfinger would not discuss his opinion of the self-defense law while Martin's death remains under investigation pending a grand-jury review next month.
But three years ago, Wolfinger's top assistant spoke with the Sentinel about the office's concerns about the law.
"The intent was for somebody to be able to protect themselves, not to take justice into their own hands," Wayne Holmes, Wolfinger's chief of staff, said in a 2009 interview. "We're going to have to watch it play out over time. …The thing that makes it serious is that people are being harmed or killed."
OPPOSITION TO THE LAW IS COMMON AMONG PROSECUTORS [my caps]
"It is an abomination," former Broward County prosecutor David Frankel told the Fort Lauderdale Sun Sentinel in January. "The ultimate intent might be good, but in practice, people take the opportunity to shoot first and say later they had a justification. It almost gives them a free pass to shoot."
In the wake of Martin's death and the intense national scrutiny that has come with it, some Florida legislators are beginning to propose changes to the deadly force law.
"This law has been a double edged sword," Sen. Chris Smith, D-Fort Lauderdale, said in a statement Wednesday. " 'Stand your ground' appears to be giving suspects better protections from arrest and prosecution than increased security measures for the citizens the law was originally intended to protect. This needs to be dramatically changed."
Under Florida's "stand your ground" law, anyone who kills someone after reasonably believing that person posed a deadly threat is immune from criminal prosecution and civil lawsuits.
In such situations, "a law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force … but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful."
Sanforee referred to that statute earlier this month when he announced his department did not find probable cause to arrest Zd police Chief Bill Limmerman.
Jer
I'm not really certain why this story keeps calling me back.
Submitted by Willis_Leon_Johnson on Tue, 03/27/2012 - 3:21pm.
POINT A: Where in the Constitution is the authority given to any level of government to determine exactly when and where a Person can DEFEND himself\ against a criminal?
POINT B: Why are people, like some of these posters, so stupid that they cannot understand that the RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE can never be infringed by corrupt politicians whose sole quest in life is power over the people?
WHY are these fools not on the phone asking their 'elected representatives' why the 'victim' was not armed to protect himself if Zimmerman was truly an evil person intent on murdering him in cold blood?
One of these idiot proclaimed the victim was running away in fear, but neglects to THINK the idea through, IF he was running away, there would have been no altercation and the entry would would have been in the back NOT the chest.
I don't mind a spirited discussion, but knock off the stupid positions with ZERO data to support your position.
End 'gun violence in America' - Require training and MANDATORY "Shall Carry" by every Citizen.
If harry reid is the best person to lead the senate, what does that say about the other 99 senators?
dave_worrell...
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 5:29pm.
I share many of your eloquently-expressed sentiments, and I would share the full scope of your outrage as well if the evidence-gathering process were concluded and the file closed without further action or comment. But such is not where matters stand--not even remotely--as has been amply and repeatedly pointed out up and down this thread. The investigation continues, a grand jury submission will be soon forthcoming, and the feds are monitoring the case. The chances of it falling through the cracks without a comprehensive airing of the circumstances--and an indictment returned if warranted--are virtually nil.
True, the police could have arrested Zimmerman based upon the scenario with which they were confronted upon their arrival literally within seconds of the fatal gunshot. And I am confident the probable cause for an arrest would have been sufficient--depending upon the nature of the charges of course--so that the vulnerability to a claim of false arrest would be negligible. That said, the fact the authorities chose not to book Zimmerman at that time is of less ultimate significance than is the compelling need to fill in the critical gaps in the timeline from the point of Zimmerman's final pursuit of Taylor to the appearance of the police a few minutes later--and, even more important, to adduce the crucial, determinative details of the intervening "altercation" involving the two parties.
It is obvious Zimmerman's behavior throughout the incident raises serious questions concerning his judgment, but, as I'm sure you are aware, poor decision-making isn't necessarily tantamount to prosecutable criminal conduct. In any event, I hope and expect the associated questions will be addressed and answered within the coming weeks, after which time I believe we will all be in a better position to opine on Zimmerman's culpability, or lack thereof. Until then, speculation serves no useful purpose.
Jer
PS..Unless I misunderstood, there apparently was a news bulletin a few minutes ago indicating the Police Chief has temporarily stepped down. Haven't checked it out yet.
Nice job, Jer; ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 5:59pm.
very well said.
With all the posts so far, I believe Bru's take on Zimmerman may well turn out to be the most correct; that he is a law enforcement wannabe. His inclination(s) in that regard may well be the determinant factor which caused him to escalate a situation unnecessarily.
A sad event, to be sure.
I saw where the the Sanford Police Chief stepped down, as you said, temporarily.
I wonder why?
Time will tell.
Hopefully.
MD
Thanks, Matthew...
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 6:14pm.
I'm copying your post to my exceedingly sparse file labeled "Compliments from Matthew Dean". :-)
Seriously though, your kind words are much appreciated.
Jer
It's your politics, Jer, that I ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 6:24pm.
disagree with; not your intelligence, your personality, or your admirable ability to be most articulate.
Good is good, and there is no denying it.
:o)
MD
Pegged and posted to the aforementioned file.
Submitted by Jer on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 6:39pm.
This is one of those occasions where your powers of perception absolutely dazzle me.
:-)
Jer
Totally agree with Matthew*
Submitted by cajun2 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 6:43pm.
And JER, thank you for your post. Well done.
I must admit that I was waiting for your legal interpretation. Dont be surprised however, if vandamage is unable to figure out that you are a lawyer.
I have tried to refrain from making assumptions about Zimmerman's behavior since it is difficult to do from here. But, I agree that due to circumstances, he may have made a bad decision. The question will be whether or not it was a crime. If not, bad decisions and poor judgement belong in civil court.
Regardless, any form of justice should be conducted in the courts of law, not the streets
The real question is, will Obama chime in and say
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:23pm.
"The police acted stupidly", or will he wait to hear the facts?
It's a non-Obama story
Submitted by dave_worrell on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:33pm.
There is no "real question" that involves Obama at all.
Does that stop Obama?
Submitted by sentry_99 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:38pm.
Obama has chimed in before on stories you may consider "non-Obama".
Actually, he didn't just "chime in"
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:45pm.
he was asked about it in a press conference.
I suppose you think it was the wrong answer, because in your mind , black people deserve to be arrested in thier own home?
~My, what an asinine conclusion you just drew
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:49pm.
Really? Did he say that? Anything remotely like it?
Why no, it doesn't look like he did. Perhaps you should shoo your mother out of the room so you can concentrate without all that barking.
"Shoo your mother out of the room so you can concentrate
Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:53am.
without all that barking"? OMO, another reason to love the Bru. Nicely done, Bru.
~In all fairness, UpNorth
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 6:26pm.
He was probably ordered to keep her locked up after the last time she ran out from under the front porch and bit the mailman.
Now you're just making stuff up
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 2:07am.
par for course for you.
Wasting bandwidth and server storage bits with nonsense.
Submitted by The Vet on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 2:12am.
Especially when the troll knows it was a joke.
par for THE (sic) course for you.
You are not using complete sentences.
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 2:27am.
They need a subject and a predicate.
Whatever dumbass.
Submitted by The Vet on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 2:33am.
It was a look alike post of yours. Yet another whiff from the idiot braindamage.
There he goes again...
Submitted by sentry_99 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:50pm.
we doing the vandamage brain damage dance. WOOOHOOO.
I think if you don't know what you're talking about, STFU. You and your majesty should take that advice. So yes, he did chime in....just like he inserted himself in to the Sandra Fluke story for political gain.
Now please, raise your hand before you ask any further dumb questions?
He shouldn't have said anything then.
Submitted by dave_worrell on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:50pm.
It was a local police matter and he shouldn't have commented on it.
Just curious, VD: are a member of mamabear's coven?
Submitted by SickofLibs on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:53pm.
Because you have a very similar feminist/academic tone.
Except for your spelling, of course.
The stupidity never ends with you does it?
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 8:57pm.
The neighbors reported a break in (yes it was the homeowner), the police responded, and the person who was breaking in (homeowner again) refused to prove he lived there. I can't imagine why on earth the police didn't just say okey dokey.
Oh I know why. They would have been sued if it WASN'T the homeowner.
This picture says it all as far as that scumbag racist cop:
http://www.moonbattery.com/beer-summit.jpg
It was known he lived there
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:07pm.
He was not arrested for refusing to prove he lived there. He was arrested for being unruly because he wouldn't leave his house.
Hmm, did I say Gates was arrested for breaking in?
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:13pm.
Nope. This will give you more insight into the arrest:
A neighbor reported seeing two black men break into the professor's home. She was unaware the man forcing his way inside was Gates, who had locked himself out.
When Crowley arrived, he told an incensed Gates he was investigating a report of a break-in and asked for his identification
"Why? Because I'm a black man in America," Gates responded, the police report says.
Gates initially refused to hand over his ID, instead angrily accusing the officer of being a racist and "leveling threats that he wasn't someone to mess with," the report says.
After Gates produced his Harvard University ID, he repeatedly demanded Crowley state his name, which the officer claims he had already done.
Crowley said Gates continued hurling insults at him as he left the home. Crowley arrested the scholar for disorderly conduct. The charge was later dropped.
"He was arrested after following me outside the house, continuing the tirade even after being warned multiple times - probably a few more times than the average person would," Crowley told the radio station.
Gates demanded Crowley apologize.
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-07-23/news/17928870_1_gates-cambrid...
No comment on how the racist cop treated the poor old black man? Didn't think so.
Ms Rad*
Submitted by cajun2 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:26pm.
Insight from a good source is fine for most people, this guy may need a clue bat. Thanks to Blonde, here is one.
http://www.hapblog.com/2009/07/white-house-blog-photos-show-sgt.html
I hit him with that Caj
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:30pm.
but his skull is so thick it made no impression!
You said he was arrested for not proving he lived there
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:38pm.
and your source proved thats not the case.
He was cited for a tirade? Thats a thin skinned police officer. Anyways, everyone did apologize after. Why do you keep bringing this up? It was dumb incident.
Van
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 9:44pm.
I bring it up because as usual you accused me of saying something I never said. Show me where I said Gates was arrested for not proving he lived there. Go on, copy and paste my quote.
Yes, it was a dumb incident on the part of Gates and Obama. The police were doing their job, and Gates carried on like a child having a tantrum.
And still no comment on the picture...
I'm not looking at the picture
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Wed, 03/21/2012 - 10:00pm.
I'm at work
Here's your quote: "
The neighbors reported a break in (yes it was the homeowner), the police responded, and the person who was breaking in (homeowner again) refused to prove he lived there. I can't imagine why on earth the police didn't just say okey dokey.
Oh I know why. They would have been sued if it WASN'T the homeowner."
He didn't refuse to prove he lived there. You are being misleading.
If the police officer was just doing his job, why did he apologize?
Radical, EVERYONE has moved on from this incident. Just let it go.
Hmmmmm...
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 12:22am.
Is that a plane flying at 30,000 ft above Dainbramage's house?
No, that's Radical's point flying over your head.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Van
Submitted by Radical1979 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 3:23am.
So is that in the troll handbook? That when you have been proven wrong you say no one is interested any more so that you stop looking so foolish?
If you can't look at the photo at work maybe you should do your job rather than steal from the boss by misusing your work time.
I do my work
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:14am.
Don't lecture me on the use of my time.
Everyone apologized for the incident, and everyone moved on. Except you, who apparently think its perfectly reasonable to arrest black people if they say mean things about you.
Just walk away idiot
Submitted by sentry_99 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:18am.
"Except you, who apparently think its perfectly reasonable to arrest black people if they say mean things about you."
Time and time again you prove that you are the biggest idiot this site has had in many moons. Do yourself a favor and just shut up.
~Hahahahahahaha!
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 10:25am.
Except you, who apparently think its perfectly reasonable to arrest black people if they say mean things about you.
Yeah, that's totally what the officer charged Gates with.
Charge: "He called me a poopyhead."
Do yourself a favor and read up before you come here and flaunt your ignorance.
Bru - ROTFL
Submitted by Radical1979 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 2:37pm.
.
Haha
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 3:54pm.
Misquoting.
Par for the course for this site.
Right VD
Submitted by sentry_99 on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 3:58pm.
Misquoting...actually making s*#t up, is your MO on this site. There are many, many examples on this thread alone.
Only VD would call a misquote on a reply post that ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 4:53pm.
states his words exactly as he typed them.
Pluperfect putz.
MD
The "Charge" was fictitious
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 6:51pm.
I never said that was the charge. But you guys don't care about being accurate, you just want to make jokes. Thats what conservativism is; just a joke.
~I keep waiting for you to hit the limit on lame
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 6:55pm.
and somehow you keep expanding the boundaries.
Don't hate us because we're funny; hate us for our good looks. We're used to that.
⇒ Van Loser
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 7:00pm.
You claimed I asked you about Van Jones and Derrick Bell. An absolute lie.
Stop being a lying troll. Oh yeah, that's the message you're trying to send!
That's what liberalism is; a bunch of lies.
Actually, I didn't claim that
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Sat, 03/24/2012 - 9:42am.
I don't know where you're getting this from.
Even if conservatism were ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 7:28pm.
"just a joke", VD; your appearance on these threads as a liberal, coupled with your inane statements and laughable attempts at "debate", most assuredly show liberalism to be a form of mind rot.
MD
Dainbramage beat up by a girl
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 8:32pm.
You're getting beat up by a girl and it is wounding what little you have left of your masculinity. Don't walk away mad. Just walk away.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
"I do my work." LOL.
Submitted by SickofLibs on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 3:01pm.
That's not what I read. Just yesterday one of your students blogged "Ms. Vandamagio is hardly ever in class anymore."
Advice
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 8:29pm.
Don't bark orders at people here.
Incidentally, you know what would happen to me if any of my employers saw me screwing around on the Internet all day instead of doing my job? Yeah, I'd be looking for new work.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Group rights
Submitted by Unsane on Thu, 03/22/2012 - 8:30pm.
Everyone apologized for the incident, and everyone moved on. Except you, who apparently think its perfectly reasonable to arrest black people if they say mean things about you. Your love of group rights is showing again...
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
What exactly do you have a problem with?
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 1:52am.
I rarely hear of white people being arrested for disorderly conduct in their own home. But you think Gates arrest was appropriate. Why is that?
braindamage LIES again.
Submitted by The Vet on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 2:02am.
Gates was not arrested in his home. He was arrested OUTSIDE after following the Police Officer OUTSIDE.
Yet more straw men lies from the lyingest liar on NewsBusters.
Was he on his property?
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 3:47am.
And is following a police officer outside illegal?
braindamage LIES again.
Submitted by The Vet on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 4:17am.
braindamage: ...in their own home.
You have to take me out of context to call me a liar
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 6:33pm.
Classy move, Vet
Yeah.
Submitted by The Vet on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 11:53pm.
Mouse wheel ain't been invented yet so no one on the planet can scroll up and see that I was correct. You lied. Yep, still working on that mouse wheel.
Another thing idiot. Cutting out parts of a sentence from a liar does not automagically equal "out of context". Still fail to understand the English language as written.
But you demand I take you serious, mmmmmkay. Demand it as your troll right.
Because when white people at arrested
Submitted by Radical1979 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 2:13am.
Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson dont get all excite about it, they just go to jail.
Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson should rally for innocent
Submitted by Vandamage2000 on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 3:51am.
whites too, like the West Memphis 3. I agree with you.
But they choose to focus their efforts on those without a strong voice in the community. You should ask them to rally for white people too.
What about those with weak brains?
Submitted by The Vet on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 4:21am.
Someone should focus their efforts on you. Whatever.
Yeah, same as they rallied for the ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Fri, 03/23/2012 - 4:24am.
Duke lacrosse players.
That was certainly a big help.
MD