Time's Grunwald: Florida Gov. Scott Slaughtered Federal 'Gift Horse' of High-Speed Rail, Sent 'Corpse Back to Washington'

By Ken Shepherd | February 16, 2011 | 17:34

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"It's one thing to look a gift horse in the mouth. It's quite another thing to slaughter a gift horse and send its disemboweled corpse back to Washington."

That's how Time magazine senior correspondent Michael Grunwald characterized Republican Florida Governor Rick Scott's decision to spurn a federal Department of Transportation high-speed rail grant for the Sunshine State.

"This was the nation's most shovel-ready high-speed project, and the state wasn't required to spend a dime to build it," Grunwald noted in his February 16 Swampland blog post.

In fairness, Grunwald did note that the economic feasibility of Tampa-to-Orlando was "actually a tougher call" than other commuter rail and mass transit projects Scott has opposed.

What's more, Grunwald noted that Scott suggested it would make more sense for the Department of Transportation to spend money on "port deepenings in Jacksonville and Miami and highway widenings on I-95 and I-4."

Of course, the high-speed rail money is a take-it-or-leave-it proposition. The $2.4 billion in money for that project cannot be reallocated to port deepenings or highway improvements, even though there's an argument to be had for "investing" in expanding that existing infrastructure as opposed to taking a huge gamble on the dubious economic returns of a high speed passenger rail project.

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Bears repeating

Submitted by jon_torlin on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 5:40pm.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. (It's in the form of a question, but more of a statement)

What is it with dictators and trains?

You know....like Mussolini.

(yes, liberals, I'm calling the Chairman a dictator. He's shown that's what he is)

-Jon

I think it's a Dr. Zhivago thing

Submitted by gwalt on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 5:54pm.

In that movie as the Commies were taking over, they had lots of train scenes.

"A lot of briefing for a 2 hr. special with Dan Rather. Saw the show & wonder why we bothered". Ronald Reagan

jon, Dictators like trains because they are an efficient way...

Submitted by Dave. on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 7:13pm.

...to transport uncooperative dissidents to the gulags when the time comes.

High speed rail only means they can do it faster.

-Dave

Vote for the American in November

Agree! need trains to pack us into... off to detention camps!

Submitted by MaximusBraveheart on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 11:29pm.

Obama's HHS Is Bigger Than LBJ's Government --- good read:

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/article/jeffrey-socialisms-trajectory-...

-- Maximusbraveheart -- Is TRUTH knowable? Moral Relativism is the abandonment of Truth. Truth is knowable. Truth conforms to Reality. Reality is observable by evidence & witness in this day & from history. Relativism is Sesame Street play land.

Absolute ignorance

Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 5:40pm.

There never was a "horse"!!!!!

There was talk about forcing a deal on a horse, but there wasn't any d@mned horse.

Doesn't the new owner of said "horse" get stuck with feeding it?

and...

Submitted by almostacowboy on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 6:10pm.

Cleaning up after them. Ask me. We've got two horses now and have as many as 4.

But, but, but...everything

Submitted by FishFace222 on Thu, 02/17/2011 - 9:40am.

But, but, but...everything from the fed govt is a gift, isn't it?

In Florida, we don't want it, we don't need it

Submitted by Blonde on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 5:44pm.

....and we certainly don't want to pay forever into the future to subsidize its operation.

I cheered when I heard this announced this a.m. on Fox (I put it up on the OT)....and as a Floridian, I would say to Michael Grunwald "kiss my grits, get out of my state, and don't let the door hit you on the way out".

Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)

You mean to say.....

Submitted by almostacowboy on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 5:58pm.

...that what's popular in the northeast corridor isn't good for the rest of the known universe?????

Here in the Peoples Demokratik Republik of Kalifornya the feds want to give us 59 miles of high-speed rail. Where? in the San Juaquin Valley where population density is about like a BB in a bushel basket.

Amen....

Submitted by nonncom on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 6:23pm.

Go back to wherever he came from and never cross the state line again.....idiot.....just what we needed....let's see, drive to Tampa, find a place to park, wait to get on the train, take train to Orlando, figure out how you are going to get around once there....all to avoid a 90 minute drive?....LOL....this had to be concieved in Washington.....spend the damn money to 10 lane I-4....

Exactly

Submitted by Blonde on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 6:34pm.

Same deal for Miami to Orlando. I can get to Orlando from Ft. Lauderdale in 3 hours (well, I kind of scooch the speed limit a bit).

Tampa to Miami isn't even an hour flight, if you have no bags, it's up and down.

Governor Scott was correct, we'd be a whole lot better off with beefed up port facilities. But NOOOOO, Obama & BiteMe want trains. Screw their trains.

Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)

malfunction junction

Submitted by Agnostic on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 10:16pm.

They can't figure out what to do with malfunction junction in Tampa but they know they can put a train through.

The trolley system that services Tampa (if still operational - it has been a while since I've been over there) had routes and stops set up to drop people off at business of those who where supporters of the then mayor. Otherwise it would still be an idea waiting for funding.

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid

Sweets for the sweet

Submitted by Pilgrim1949 on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 5:49pm.

Or, in this case, Florida severed the back end of the horse and returned it to the Feds who so pompously sent it to them.

Saves the Feds the time of looking in the mirror!

Kind of cheeky, actually! :)

"Ye canne change the laws of physics....." but some politicians believe that with the right legislation you can pretend they don't really apply to your own pet projects...

I don't get the fascination

Submitted by Ken Shepherd on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 5:52pm.

I don't get the fascination with high-speed rail. It makes perfect sense for Japan and Europe but very little sense in the U.S. Maybe in the Northeast corridor, but even there it's going to be costly. It's never going to be profitable.

If you want to amp up rail investment, fine, do so in our cargo network. Take more tractor trailers off the highways, put more cargo on fuel-efficient freight trains. Frees up room on our interstates for passenger and commuting traffic. Gets goods from place to place faster and cheaper.

Here's what one of the

Submitted by jdhawk on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 6:05pm.

Here's what one of the editorial writers for Investment Business Daily had to say today on this subject:

The Enemies Of Good Government

By ROBERT J. SAMUELSON
Posted 02/15/2011 05:53 PM ET

View Enlarged Image

Vice President Joe Biden, an avowed friend of good government, is giving it a bad name. With great fanfare, he went to Philadelphia the other day to announce that the Obama administration proposes spending $53 billion over six years to construct a "national high-speed rail system."

Translation: the administration would pay states $53 billion to build rail networks that would then lose money — not a little, but lots — and, thereby, aggravate the budget squeezes of the states or federal government, depending on which covered the deficits.

There's something wildly irresponsible about the national government's undermining states' already poor long-term budget prospects by plying them with grants that provide short-term jobs. Worse, the high-speed rail proposal casts doubt on the administration's commitment to reducing huge budget deficits. How can it subdue deficits if it keeps proposing big new spending programs?

High-speed rail would definitely be big. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has estimated the administration's ultimate goal — bringing high-speed rail to 80% of the population — could cost $500 billion over 25 years. For this stupendous sum, there would be scant public benefits. Precisely the opposite. Rail subsidies would threaten funding for more pressing public needs: schools, police, defense.

How can we know this? History, for starters.

Passenger rail service inspires wishful thinking. In 1970, when Congress created Amtrak to preserve intercity passenger trains, the idea was that the system would become profitable and self-sustaining after an initial infusion of federal money. This never happened. Amtrak has already swallowed $35 billion in subsidies, and they're increasing by more than $1 billion annually.

Despite the subsidies, Amtrak does not provide low-cost transportation. Longtime critic Randal O'Toole of the Cato Institute recently planned a trip from Washington to New York. Noting that fares on Amtrak's high-speed Acela start at $139 one-way, he decided to take a private bus service. The roundtrip fare: $21.50.

Nor does Amtrak do much to relieve congestion, cut oil use, reduce pollution or eliminate greenhouse gases. Its traffic volumes are simply too small to matter.

Consider. In 2010, Amtrak carried 29.1 million passengers for the entire year. That's about one-twenty-fifth of annual air travel (2010 estimate: 725 million passengers). It's also roughly a quarter of daily automobile commuters (124 million in 2008). Measured by passenger-miles traveled, Amtrak represents one-tenth of 1% of the national total.

Rail buffs argue that subsidies for passenger service simply offset the huge government support of highways and airways. The subsidies "level the playing field." Wrong. In 2004, the Department of Transportation evaluated federal transportation subsidies for the period 1990-2002. It found passenger rail service had the highest subsidy ($186.35 per thousand passenger-miles) followed by mass transit ($118.26 per thousand miles).

By contrast, drivers received no net subsidy; their fuel taxes more than covered federal spending. Subsidies for airline passengers were about $5 per thousand miles traveled. (All figures are in inflation-adjusted year 2000 dollars.)

High-speed rail would transform Amtrak's small drain into a much larger drain. Once built, high-speed rail systems would face a dilemma. To recoup initial capital costs —construction and train purchases — ticket prices would have to be set so high that few people would choose rail.

But lower prices, even with favorable passenger loads, might not cover costs. Government would be stuck with huge subsidies. Even without recovering capital costs, high-speed rail systems would probably run in the red. Most mass-transit systems, despite high ridership, routinely have deficits.

The reasons why passenger rail service doesn't work in America are well-known: Interstate highways shorten many trip times; suburbanization has fragmented destination points; air travel is quicker and more flexible for long distances (if fewer people fly from Denver to Los Angeles and more go to Houston, flight schedules simply adjust). Against history and logic is the imagery of high-speed rail as "green" and a cutting-edge technology.

It's a triumph of fancy over fact. Even if ridership increased fifteenfold over Amtrak levels, the effects on congestion, national fuel consumption and emissions would still be trivial. Land use patterns would change modestly, if at all; cutting 20 minutes off travel times between New York and Philadelphia wouldn't much alter real estate development in either. Nor is high-speed rail a technology where the United States would likely lead; European and Asian firms already dominate the market.

Governing ought to be about making wise choices. What's disheartening about the Obama administration's embrace of high-speed rail is that it ignores history, evidence and logic. The case against it is overwhelming. The case in favor rests on fashionable platitudes.

High-speed rail is not an "investment in the future"; it's mostly a waste of money. Good government can't solve all our problems, but it can at least not make them worse.

It appears if Samuelson has it right and I think that he does, that the enemy of good government is indeed duhbama and his administration and not the Governor of Florida.

Or put another way, high speed rail is the gift that keeps on giving in the form of ever higher taxes without end as it ALWAYS runs in the red while ripping off the customers that it is intended to serve with outrageously high prices as compared to other forms of transportation.

Acelor train = one way $139

Same trip but round trip on a bus = $21.50!!!

jd, Welcome to Gary Hall's Pesky Fact Club

Submitted by Blonde on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 6:37pm.

As recording secretary, I'll make sure your certificate of membership is in the mail tomorrow morning.

Great stuff!

Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)

who pays

Submitted by Agnostic on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 8:21pm.

When the construction estimates are found to be far below actual cost - does the state pick up the difference?

Indulging in a conspiracy theory: If Florida would have taken the money and within two years they find that they had blown through a large chunk of the money before construction had even started on legal fees for trying to build on land that is home to the no-see-ums and when every politicians state and local gets a cut from federal as well as state money - would we be hearing around election time how Florida has to vote for President Obama or there won't be any more federal money and the state of Florida will have create an income tax. President Obama or an Income tax is a real win-win for the Democrats.

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid

Federal Gov't Kick Backs as Well

Submitted by Boil It Down on Thu, 02/17/2011 - 9:10am.

What percentage of this high speed construction miracle would go into the environmental impact studies, which take a very long time? That's just throwing money into the Federal wind with nothing to show for it. It's all a brand new open door for government corruption, like we don't have enough now.

Boilt It Down

Submitted by Agnostic on Thu, 02/17/2011 - 3:39pm.

environmental impact studies - is a nice way of saying EPA kickbacks.

I'm going to have to watch Back To School again just to hear the rant the Rodney Dangerfield's character goes on about all the costs the academic missed while calculating the cost of starting a business.

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid

There's been a whole lot of

Submitted by johnsonl on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 6:07pm.

There's been a whole lot of shoveling going on since this administration took office.

What is it with Obambi?

Submitted by Newsbubba on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 6:30pm.

He wants us to blow off our current power sources and return to the days of clothes lines (solar power) and wind mills (wind power). I remember that crap, and personally I prefer good new fashioned oil, coal, and nuke generated electric power, and hog, gas burning muscle cars.

Now we return to the good old days of transportation; flocking trains! He calls high speed, 35 miles an hour up and down the eastern seaboard? How about we just skip straight to stage coaches and wagon trains so we can actually use a "gift horse," you jack wagon!

Oh yeah. This rat bastard fascist SOB fails to ever mention that Japan's really high speed rails are NOT run by the government. It is private enterprise. Maybe that's why it actually works?

As a tax paying Floridian, I'm damned glad that we won't have to go broke in the future paying for the operation of this boondoggle "gift" from the government.

Comrade Bubba

Bubba

Submitted by Blonde on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 6:40pm.

When we were in Costa Rica, I used a clothesline (for the first time in my adult life!) to dry stuff, I really liked it for the king sized sheets, making everything really easy to fold, and no wrinkles from the laundry basket. I'd forgotten I wanted to put up a line here for that, so thanks for the reminder!

Other than sheets, though, the dryer is much preferable, and I have no intention of giving up my dryer in some idiotic effort to be green.

Two big thumbs up to your last sentence, fella.

Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)

You're right. For a guy so

Submitted by Free Thinker on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 6:47pm.

You're right. For a guy so interested in "investing" in the future he sure does advocate alot of outdated stuff from the past. I mean, trains? Really?

This is the problem of letting the government plan an economy - massive spending on something nobody wants or would use. It works in Japan because there is demand due to a population half the size of America living in an area smaller than California.

Outdated stuff

Submitted by jon_torlin on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 7:50pm.

That's the Muslim in him pushing the outdated stuff because that's what Muslims want to do, make everything outdated but under their control with no room to improve anything.

Everything he's been doing(unConstitutional all of it) does nothing but pushes this country backwards in so many ways.

Huge debt that can never be taken care of.

Killing our energy abilities by pushing for these lame-ass chargers for electric cars while at the same time, pushing windmills and punishing coal/other power plants or not allowing any to be built(through EPA).

Social programs that are fit for Communist countries.

Surrendering to the enemy.(at the same time, killing our alliances or trying to)

Killing the economy with increasing unemployment(through aforementioned social programs) and taxing everyone no matter what.

And on and on.

None of these things improve our situation, but they sure as hell will kill us.

-Jon

I don't know about all this

Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 7:27pm.

I don't know about all this choo choo stuff, but I do know one thing for sure; this kind of rhetoric is sure to inflame disembowelers all over the Florida peninsula. It's dangerous and careless language, Mr. Grunwald -if that is your real name- and I sugest you bottle it up, and apologize before tanned, gizzardless bodies start showing up in Union Station.

Truly despicable! I mean, in this day and age! Sheesh.

Shovel ready jobs?

Submitted by kareling on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 8:16pm.

Didn't Grunwald get the memo from on high? There's no such thing as shovel ready jobs!

Or did The Current Truth change without notice again?

The terms and phrases....

Submitted by GregE on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 10:13pm.

....change so often, even the insiders' heads' spin.

Obama is so not with teh

Submitted by Dan The Man 2 on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 9:20pm.

Obama is so not with teh times. We really need to be building personal rocket transport.

Nuke em til they glow; then shoot em in the dark

Mandate

Submitted by GregE on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 10:15pm.

Maybe Obama will try and get a mandate passed, forcing states to accept his choo-choos.

"This was the nation's most shovel-ready high-speed project, and the state wasn't required to spend a dime to build it"

.......because everyone KNOWS that maintenance and upkeep costs nothing at all.

Yea yea yea, dump it on a state, tell them it's free, courtesy of the family of four in Nebraska, the single mother in Idaho, the 18 year old newly married struggling couple in Virginia, the widower with 5 children in Colorado who all have zero say-so in the matter. Free huh? Won't cost Florida a dime huh? Idiots!!!

Then hold the free choo choo over Florida's head for eternity as having come from the god called Federal Gummit.

Interesting it's Florida, a state that matters to them politcally. Every breath is about flippin politics.

"Free"

Submitted by MaximusBraveheart on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 11:32pm.

GregE: Great post on things being "free!" They are STEALING OUR MONEY! What a bunch of first class crooks.

Florida could use a high-speed rail

Submitted by Moonliner on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 10:28pm.

but they put it on the wrong side of the state. It was a case of politics over purpose. A high speed rail between Port Canaveral and Orlando (including the airport and theme park area) would be highly traveled and could make money, but this should be a business decision by those players in the game and not government. The state can contribute through easements and tax deferments, but the capital should be private. Just my thoughts.

Sorry, moon,

Submitted by UpNorth on Thu, 02/17/2011 - 1:57am.

but I beg to differ. High speed rail will not ever be profitable. Estimates on the cost of a mile of rail about 10 years ago was a million dollars a mile, I'd bet it's considerably higher now. That's just to lay the rail, that wasn't the purchase price of the land. You won't be able to crowd enough people on the cars to make it pay, with all the people pushers in Japan. Unless the tickets are prohibitively expensive, which defeats the purpose of having "high speed rail" in the first place. And, has been mentioned upthread, maintenance, salaries, and investment do cost money, who pays when the feds walk away with their dollars.

Here's a hint, take a look at the medicaid programs and what shape they are in.

To re-elect Obama would be like the Titanic backing up and hitting the iceberg again.

high speed fail

Submitted by wizardjr on Thu, 02/17/2011 - 9:33am.

The other idiotic rail disaster is 'light rail'. The assclowns in Mineapolis took Federal money to build a leg here from the airport to Mall of America. Now at least it continues on to downtown Minneapolis.

You can see all three riders on it when it clogs up the street in passing by. If it was ten times bigger, route wise, it might be useful for work commutes. Of course it'll be twenty years before that can happen by which time demographics will have changed such as to moot those routes.

Don't ya just love how government just constantly keeps right up to date like that? I mean it only cost the taxpayers a few billion dollars so far. No problem-oh right? I'm sure the 375 riders a year really appreciate what the government's doing for them.