Katie Couric Paints Gov. Jindal, State of Louisiana As Foes of 'Scientific Community'

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"Well, the saints might go marching into New Orleans, but the scientists are marching right on out. A group of more than two thousand biologists have decided NOT to hold their 2011 annual meeting in the Big Easy," "Evening News" anchor Katie Couric noted at the open of her  February 18 video blog entry.

Couric proceeded to turn a biologists convention's PR stunt into evidence that Gov. Bobby Jindal (R-La.) is an enemy of the "scientific community.":

The reason? Louisiana has a law that allows teachers to use supplemental materials in science class - things other than the state approved curriculum. Republican-up-and-comer Bobby Jindal signed it last summer after it passed the state legislature with overwhelming support. 

The scientific community says the law is nothing more than a free pass for the teaching of creationism, and that religion has no place in a biology class. 

In closing, Couric noted that the Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology (SICB) was moving its 2011 convention to Salt Lake City before joking:

Salt Lake City is more progressive than New Orleans? Now there's a clear argument - that evolution exists. 

Okay, so Katie's no comedian, but she is a master at packing a dense amount of bias into a short news item. Consider that in a one-minute video brief she:

  • panned as scientifically bankrupt religious conservatives who believe that God created the universe
  • painted potential GOP presidential hopeful Jindal (R) as an enemy of "the scientific community"
  • made a joke that slammed both Utah and Louisiana as backwards, albeit the former less so

—Ken Shepherd is Managing Editor of NewsBusters


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Closed Minded

These so-called "scientist" are the most close-minded people.  They have to grandstand to get their athiestic way, like little children.

 Their is no law that says you can't be a faithful Christian AND a competent scientist, but I am sure these people will make it so, if they have their way. 

You know what's weird?  Us

You know what's weird?  Us Conservatives who differentiate ourselves from Liberals because we use logic and reason to solve problems.  Yet within our ranks exists the enclave of the religious right, and from within that dwells a crowd who absolutely reject reason and logic in favor of creationism.

I can't bash ABC on this one (which is rare for me to say).  The scientists are right.  Allowing a loop-hole for the inclusion of creationism in science is akin to allowing alternate math in math, or revisionist history in social studies.  All praise the FSM!

Louisiana's inclusion of 'alternate teaching methods' may or may not have been intended to allow creationist junk science into the classroom, but it's a consequence.  If it was intentional, it's nothing short of appeasement, which is still wrong on several levels.  It's got little to do with critical thinking (unless they're debunking it).

Religious Right did not write or pass this law all by themselves

"Jindal signed it last summer after it passed the state legislature with overwhelming support."

Who controls the state Legislature in Louisiana?
House: 51 Democrats; 50 Republicans; 3 Independents
Senate: 22 Democrats; 15 Republicans

It was obviously not a party line vote. 'Overwhelming support' would tend to make one think it was a sizeable majority that voted for it.

But Jindahl signing it makes him the scapegoat for a leftist attack and evidence of his neanderthal Republican conservatism. How convenient, Ms. Couric.

BTW, isn't it still the "Theory" of Evolution?

CPT_Claw, You

CPT_Claw,

You ask:

BTW, isn't it still the "Theory" of Evolution?

Yes. And Einstein's major work is still called the Special "Theory" of Relativity. So what?

The particular label used for a given model ("Theory", "Law", whatever) is more a historical thing than anything else. The label typically has little to do with how well supported the model is by evidence or how widely accepted it is.

Evolution is junk science.

Reason and logic are abandoned by evolutionists in their unproven and unprovable presumption of naturalism. 

 

Evolution was not a scientifically arrived at conclusion, it was a presumption based on the premise of atheism, thus making it every bit as “religious” as creationism is made out to be.

 

There is absolutely no inconsistency between “creationism” and science.  But the entire “theory” of evolution is based on a philosophical presumption.

 Anyone interested in this subject should see the videos available here: 

http://www.illustramedia.com/productions.htm

Sigh

"Evolution was not a scientifically arrived at conclusion, it was a presumption based on the premise of atheism, thus making it every bit as “religious” as creationism is made out to be. "

I need to get out the hip waders because the B.S. is getting deep.

If anyone is trying to equate a belief in evolution with atheism it's ID proponents.

The public-relations successes of what's being widely called "ID" reflect the skillful way in which its proponents have framed the debate to place God and Darwin in direct opposition. As Phillip Johnson, the movement's most respected leader, has candidly described it, the principal strategy followed by the "design" movement "is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God." That, the ID folks are convinced, is a winning argument, at least in the United States.

 The Catholic church has said that evolution is compatible with christianity.

http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news/bulletin_mag/articles/33-2_miller.html

mattm, You

mattm,

You said:

There is absolutely no inconsistency between “creationism” and science.

Well, you know, except for the fact that science (that's all of science) rejects the use of supernatural agents in its models whereas, a supernatural agent is at the core of creationism.

But aside from that little difference, yea, you're right.

We argued this befor.

Tell me, Hydro, what is the defenition of supernatural?

"Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces."

Humm, that sounds a lot like Dark Energy, doesn't it?

The key here is "seems to."  You know, like how magnetism was once considered supernatural is it seemed to violate known the properties of physics for centuries.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities
of Citizens in the several States.

The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus.
The US Supreme Court

CobraMan, OK. I'll tell

CobraMan,

OK. I'll tell you what that term means in science - a supernatural agent is an agent which, by its very definition, has unknowable empirical properties.

I would count God as a supernatural agent. Would you?

And since dark energy is a form of energy, it has knowable empirical properties. It can be incorporated into and be a consequence of scientific models. Within a given model, it will have certain properties and consequences which can be potentially verified empirically.

So, no. Dark Energy isn't supernatural.

By contrast, if I incorporate God into a scientific theory, how exactly do I derive unique empirical results from that theory? I'd love to know.

Again, you seem to confuse "supernatural" with "unknown" or "unverified".

Nope

"I would count God as a supernatural agent. Would you?"

Nope, I would strongly disagree.  You see, if God did create the universe, he would necessarily be part of the natural forces of the  universe that he created, otherwise he could not have created it. That makes God a NATURAL force and not a supernatural force.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities
of Citizens in the several States.

The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus.
The US Supreme Court

Wow

How can God be part of something that didn't exist until He created it? Those natural forces did not exist until creation.

Not to mention that according to the bible God and Jesus reside in heaven, which is clearly not a part of the natural universe.

What you are proposing is contrary to christian theology.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/xdimgod.html

 

How can you be part of a baby making process?

"How can God be part of something that didn't exist until He created it?"

How can you be a part of the baby making process when that baby didn't exist before you and the opposite sex created it?

"Those natural forces did not exist until creation."

Yes, they did, or God couldn't have used them to create the Heavens and Earth.

"Not to mention that according to the bible God and Jesus reside in heaven, which is clearly not a part of the natural universe."

Heaven IS the universe.  The term Heaven was, and still is, used to describe the stars (the stars in Heaven, you know), the observable Universe outside of the earth.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities
of Citizens in the several States.

The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus.
The US Supreme Court

LOL

So at this point you are suggesting that God isn't Divine, only a being of very high technological advancement (and still using natural laws of physics) who we will eventually come to understand scientifically.

Not a new theory but definitely interesting.

http://www.netscientia.com/sumerians.html

mvfreeman, Well, I'm sure

mvfreeman,

Well, I'm sure CobraMan can argue that since God is all powerful, he can choose to not be Divine when it comes to the workings for the universe.

Or something.

Some of the stuff he says

Some of the stuff he says is so nonsensical I feel like I'm being trolled.

Here is a verse from Hebrews I checked out.

By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=KJV&b=Hbr&c=11&v=1&x=0&y=0#vrsn/3

Another example

"How can God be part of something that didn't exist until He created it?"

How can you be part of the thought making process if that thought didn't exist before you created it? The mere fact that you created it make you part of that process.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities
of Citizens in the several States.

The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus.
The US Supreme Court

CobraMan, OK. What are

CobraMan,

OK. What are God's empirical properties?

I ask, because if I want to incorporate him into my naturalistic theory and use that theory to make some predictions so I can check to see if my theory is empirically valid, I'm going to have to know.

I look forward to your list.

There it is

"potentially verified empirically"

There it is, Hydro,.  You keep talking about  "empirical properties" and  "empirical data" yet even you must admit that these "empirical properties" haven't been observed.  By your own standards, then, dark energy, since it has yet to be proven by "empirical " evidence, MUST be supernatural in nature.

One can argue just as reasonable that God also has properties that can be "potentially verified empirically."  Correct?

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities
of Citizens in the several States.

The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus.
The US Supreme Court

CobraMan,  Wow. If I

CobraMan, 

Wow.

If I put forth a theory that something I call "dark energy" exists, I posit a set of naturalistic properties that this form of energy has and work that into a naturalistic theory which I can then use to make unique predictions. Those predictions may or may not be verified empirically, but either way, "dark energy" starts off as a naturalistic agent.

Now explain to me how I incorporate God into a naturalistic theory? I'll need to know his empirical properties, so (as in another post) I'll ask you what they are.

What if...

...the agent at the core of creationism is not supernatural and is just beyond our comprehension? Are things beyond our current comprehension an impossibility? Rejecting thought and discussion of what is now impossible to prove either way, hardly seems advantageous if we want to further evolve our understanding of all that exists. I choose not to be so narrow minded, but to each his own.

 

Karma, I'm pretty sure it

Karma,

I'm pretty sure it is a stated assumption within creationism that there is a supernatural creator.

Scientists acknowledge that they don't understand how the universe was created and debate it - a lot. So I don't know what your point about "narrow minded" is.

Unless your point is that science should include supernatural agents. But that undermines your initial statement.

Your assumed assumptions aside,

you still failed to answer any of my questions.

Unless your point is to ignore the questions as stated. Which points to my point about narrow minded.

Do these discussions serve a purpose? If not, why do you participate in them? If so, why would you preclude others, including students, from enjoining?

 

 

Sorry Karma, I thought I

Sorry Karma,

I thought I had addressed your point. Let me try again.

What if the agent at the core of creationism is not supernatural and is just
beyond our comprehension?

In other words, what if the universe has a natural origin? I'm pretty sure that's what science assumes so it wouldn't be called "creationism", it would be called "science".

Are things beyond our current comprehension
an impossibility?

No. Assuming that what isn't currently known can be know is what keeps scientists in business.

Rejecting thought and discussion of what is now
impossible to prove either way, hardly seems advantageous if we want to
further evolve our understanding of all that exists.

I don't recall rejecting "thought and discussion". What I was saying is that science doesn't incorporate supernatural agents since they don't have knowable empirical properties (by definition). That's sort of a problem if you're a scientist and your whole shtick is to try to explain things from a purely naturalistic standpoint (which is what science tries to do).

That might not seem "advantageous" to you, but unless you can explain to me how to incorporate a supernatural agent consistently into a theory and derive unique results from it to test it, the point is moot. No one knows how to do that. 

I choose not to be
so narrow minded, but to each his own. 

It's easy to view scientist as "narrow minded" when you aren't the one who would have to figure out how to get around the problem I pointed out above.

Try as you might, you will fail.

And that's ok, hydrodynDM. The one assumption I will make is that you seem to be a very good person.

You state:  "It's easy to view scientist as " narrow minded"  when you aren't the one
who would have to figure out how to get around the problem I pointed
out above."

You're correct. I don't have to figure out how to get around your problem. Neither do you. Who know's how many more years, perhaps millions or more, we have to advance our knowledge into our origins. My guess is you won't even come close in your lifetime. Don't lose sleep over it. You're only human like the rest of us in this amazing nature we observe.

I read this here for the first time, and he does a good job at conveing some of my views on this. Of course, in his present state, he doesn't have to worry about the problem you have either. Rest assured, someone else will carry on. Thanks for the discussion. You're a great asset here at NB.

Karma, Thanks for the

Karma,

Thanks for the discussion as well and the compliment.

I don't think people who use evolutionary theory lose much sleep over this. That is, I don't think they spend much time worrying about how their work will be viewed by those who don't accept evolution to begin with.

By contrast, a lot of people of faith seem upset that science doesn't want to take their views into account. A lot of my posts on this site are about that - and trying to get across the idea that science doesn't use supernatural agents because it doesn't know how to - not because scientists hate religion or are narrow minded or whatever.

I'm not sure I've managed to convince anyone, but I keep trying :)

You know what's weird?

 You know what's weird? That you're just as intolerant as the people you demean in your post.

You claim that Conservatives allow for reason and logic as part of Conservative ideology but then tell us that there "exists the enclave of the religious right" and claims that there is a sub-group wit them "who absolutely reject reason and logic in favor of creationism" without even realizing that there are a LOT of non-religious people, like myself, who use reason and logic to find fault with Evolutionary theory. 

It seems to me, that you are just as unwilling to accept that basic fact as the"enclave of the religious right" as you have conveniently labeled them, are "unwilling" to accept your views on the subject.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities
of Citizens in the several States.

The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus.
The US Supreme Court

didn't you know Cobra

When it comes to identifying the beginning of life, the debate is over. Accept what your school teacher tells you or else. 

 

But acts of kindness and generosity must be free and voluntary; no man has a right to compel another to follow his conscience. This is a concern which lies between a man and his God.

-Richard Fuhrman, pro slave advocate, 1823

The debate is not remotely over

And no one here has suggested otherwise.

There are numerous hypotheses about abiogenesis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life

exLib, I'm curious. If a

exLib,

I'm curious. If a religious organization decided to move a meeting because the original city it was to be held in had recently passed a law that they viewed as anti-religious, would you consider that "close-minded" or an act of "grandstanding"? Would you view them as acting like "little children"?

No. I'm pretty sure you would consider it a decision based on principle.

The vast majority of all "so-called "scientists"" don't view creationism as a science. This isn't a decision motivated by a hate of religion or a desire to push atheism (which would be odd, since many scientists are people of faith). It's a decision based on the view that creationism, as a theory, doesn't follow the rules of science. Plain and simple.

But please - continue to hold to your cartoon view of scientists as amoral religion-haters.

I'd ask you back up your view scientifically, but I'm sure you would have no idea what I'm talking about.

So you're saying since these

So you're saying since these scientists packed up for Salt Lake over N.O. because they do believe in the ancient spirit of Moroni and his golden plates?

SickofLibs, Um,

SickofLibs,

Um, no.

Let's focus here.

The issue was how N.O. passed a law that affected how science is to be taught in the class room.

Did Salt Lake pass a law like that?

And you problem is?

"The issue was how N.O. passed a law that affected how science is to be taught in the class room"

And your problem is, what?  That a State has passed legislation as to how the the children of the citizens of that state will receive classroom instruction on any given topic?  What's wrong with a state, any state, setting standards as to how that schools within that state will teach children? Sates do this all the time.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities
of Citizens in the several States.

The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus.
The US Supreme Court

CobraMan, Again, let's

CobraMan,

Again, let's focus.

I was pointing out why the SICB made the decision that it did. I wasn't arguing the merits of the SICB decision.

It also allows

for the teaching of something other then Global Warming too.  I'll also be interested to find out if this is the only reason that was given for the move.  If there is was this the real reason and the media just twisted someones words for this story.

Just looked into it.  This is definately the reason.  Undoubtablely they didn't read the bill.  The bill said in part that placing all differing views in science is designed to promote critical thinking skills in students.  Imagine Louisiana actually wants our children to hear all arguments and then make up their own minds.  I didn't realize that that was backwards.

Hmmm

What scientifically valid competing theory to evolution is there?

(Crickets chirping.)

Didn't you link an article

about other theories of the beginning of life in an earlier post.  Under this law that could be introduced into the classroom also.

Hi sdan

You're probably right about that.

I haven't taken a biology class in over 20 years so I can't say exactly what current curriculum are.

One thing I can recall from college biology is that philosophical aspects of any theory weren't discussed. That's what philosophy classes are for.

Also, abiogenesis and evolution are two different things.

In the natural sciences, abiogenesis, or origin of life, is the study of how life on Earth could have arisen from inanimate matter. It should not be confused with evolution, which is the study of how living things change over time

After several beers and listening to the new Buckethead cd I'm ready to call it a night.

Have a  good one.

Hi sdan

You're probably right about that.

I haven't taken a biology class in over 20 years so I can't say exactly what current curriculum are.

One thing I can recall from college biology is that philosophical aspects of any theory weren't discussed. That's what philosophy classes are for.

Also, abiogenesis and evolution are two different things.

In the natural sciences, abiogenesis, or origin of life, is the study of how life on Earth could have arisen from inanimate matter. It should not be confused with evolution, which is the study of how living things change over time

After several beers and listening to the new Buckethead cd I'm ready to call it a night.

Have a  good one.

I just can't help but think of what

 Camille Paglia said about Couric, every time I see her. Seriously, how dumb do you have to be, to be considered the dumbest interviewer, ever? The most shallow and uninformed? No wonder the eyeball channel is going down the tubes. Whatever they are paying the affable Eva Braun, it is way, way too much.

 

All a Democrat needs is the upper-story window of public attention and the chamber pot of rhetoric. How else to explain the rise of Joe Biden?  P.J. O' Rourke

is it me...

or does her new haircut make her look like she has a more masculine jaw?  She swapped her Cute Katie look for the Granite-Jaw Katie, the butchy UFC fighter look.

"Not to be a republican at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head." - Francois Guisot

Katie's new look

I think miz, that K-K-Katie is trying to look more like Chris Matthews. Perhaps a desperate search for gravitas.

→ Maybe not slick

Suze Orman, maybe?

  • When Liberals raise the bar, expect The Limbo

Big Deal.

     No one ever heard of the Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology until Katie darlin' had to make a big deal about them changing their venue.  Honestly, this isn't even news.

"Not to be a republican at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head." - Francois Guisot

Exactly. But Couric wants it

Exactly. But Couric wants it to be news because it fits a left-wing meme about Republican pols and the Republican Party base: anti-intellectual, anti-scientific, yada yada.

 

 

More Yada

Don't forget gun totin', pickup with a gun rack in the back drivin', NASCAR watchin', racist, homophobic, womanizin', woman hatin', bible totin', clingin' hayseeds. 

"The future is not set.  There is no fate but what we make for ourselves."

michaelyon-online.com

Couric sure has a way to

Couric sure has a way to twist the truth into something unrecognizable.

She could use a man. Then she wouldn't twist pretty women too. 

"Forget change, I want improvement!"

I am sure this is just the

I am sure this is just the beginning of the "Jindal bashing" that is to come.  The left knows he is one of our leading GOP presidental contenders so they are going to try and tear him down as much as possible from now until 2012. 

It's not just the left

People on the right aren't too happy about this either...

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32774_Louisiana_Reaps_What_It_Sowed

oh the horror!

Kids given access to more than one philosophy so they can make up their own minds? That must be stopped!! 

 

 

 

But acts of kindness and generosity must be free and voluntary; no man has a right to compel another to follow his conscience. This is a concern which lies between a man and his God.

-Richard Fuhrman, pro slave advocate, 1823

They all think they're rocket scientists

Did you ever notice how semi-literate, left-wing loons like Couric all think they're brilliant scientists? Katie Couric couldn't see the "scientific community" with the Hubble telescope.

Another self-anointed seer, Jeanine Garofalo, was quoted in NewsBuster the other day saying,  "The reason a person is a conservative republican is because something is wrong with them. Again, that’s science – that’s neuroscience."

Neuroscience! Like Garofalo knows from neuroscience! If she has more than an eighth-grader's understanding of science, I'd be sorely surprised.

And then there are the "truthers," with their retarded,  pseudo-scientific explanations of how the Trade Center's collapse HAD to be from controlled detonation, because, as one particularly egregious bird-brain said, a building goes "clunkety-clunk, clunkety-clunk, clunkety-clunk..."a hundred times, and she times the clunks, and etc., etc.

Imbeciles posing as Einstein! They not only think they're "holier than thou," they all sincerely believe they're "smarter than thou."

 

I'd paint the biologists as a bunch of racists...

I'd paint the biologists as a bunch of racists... I was just down in NOLA. Every day, 3, 4 or sometimes only 2 people - mostly blacks by blacks - were murdered. According to Time Mag. "Before Katrina, New Orleans had a murder rate 10 times worse than the US average."

It's back. 

The biologists are simply afraid to go there. Perhaps, as AG Holder stated yesterday, they are simply a bunch of cowards.

Very keen observation Gary

 As a Buddy Roamer once said, "There's New Orleans, and there is the rest of the State". Meaning, that NO sucks up most of our States social resources.

 

"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg

Hey General Co.

Thanks... Yea - I have strong memories. Right out of HS one of my dearest best friends chose Tulane U. Was shot and killed - from a window above, simply walking down the street one night. No motive was ever found. Was not robbed, nothing. Just murdered by someone he apparently never saw. Perhaps Nam would have been a safer choice. gary

The reason? Louisiana has a

The reason? Louisiana has a law that allows teachers to use supplemental materials in science class - things other than the state approved curriculum. Republican-up-and-comer Bobby Jindal signed it last summer after it passed the state legislature with overwhelming support.

This sounds like democracy in action and giving the local school district teh flexibility to vary teh curriculum a bit.  The locals have teh control just like our founders envisioned.  I think its great.

The local school board has teh ability to hire and fire who they wish and teach what they want.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

Yes, we must stop any kind of non-lemming lockstep

 immediately! Cease and desist! Resistance is futile! What utter horse hockey. Everyone knows that the words "flexible" and "varied" and "competitive" aren't allowed in the government indoctrination centers. Someone might get a varied thought or a off the wall idea. That might be considered some sort of unfair advantage. And whoever said that this is just a begining of the attacks that will start on Jindal, knowing he is considered a favorite in the Republican party. Great observation. I agree. Start early, stay persistent.

 

All a Democrat needs is the upper-story window of public attention and the chamber pot of rhetoric. How else to explain the rise of Joe Biden?  P.J. O' Rourke

Jindal Vulnerable

I'm no fan of K-K-Katie, but on the other hand Jindal is vulnerable on this issue. I'm all in favor of teaching both sides of any science, but creationism is not science. If Jindal ever intends to go national, he needs to clarify his beliefs and intent on the teaching of creationism. If not he limits himself to less than half of the Republican base.

Louisiana's bill sounds fairly innocuous however, but so does some of the junk in Obama's porkulus bill. It all depends on how it gets implemented as it trickles down to the civil servant level.

Hold on a sec.

     You're under the assumption that Jindal allowed creationism to be taught in school.  You know that can't happen in public schools because the ACLU will be on Louisiana like a plague of locusts.  I can't say for certain what the supplemental information would be, but we would be hearing an uproar if it was actually creationism by now.

"Not to be a republican at twenty is proof of want of heart; to be one at thirty is proof of want of head." - Francois Guisot

Miz, well your sorta right?

They are, our local school system has been sued 8 time in the last 11 or so years. But this law leaves it in the discretionary hand of the teachers,,,,the teachers mind you. Jindal is a class act, either way you beleive, you have to admit it doesnt make one an evil person? So why would anyone care? BTW you know how many cases the aclu have actualy won? None

 

"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg

Republican-up-and-comer

Republican-up-and-comer Bobby Jindal signed it last summer after it passed the state legislature with overwhelming support.   I am confused, if he had overwhelming support in a heavy democratic state, how is this bad for his future?   Bobby Jindal also back down on pay raises for government employees, after a huge public outcry……..  In my opinion, he is one of the few that listens to everyone in his State.   Just my two cents, but Obama's bill has a lot more junk in it than bobby’s allowing teachers the option to teach more than one view of science.    I guess in the end, we will find out what the MSM deems to matter if he choices to run.

What is unscientific about observing the obvious?

The level of complexity of a single cell is greater than every machine built by man put together.

It's so obviously desigened by something...maybe not God, but certainly no one can look at an eye or a bird (billions of times more advanced and complex than the space shuttle) and say there is no design....

Maybe it was Fred Flintstone, or Goldilocks (if you can't stomach the thought of a Creator) but something designed these systems!

 

political maven, The same

political maven,

The same type of complexity arguments were made in the past with regard to the motion of the planets. But once we understood gravity, that complexity could be explained naturally.

I don't see any reason to think that, at some point in the future, scientists won't be able to explain the complexity you refer to in natural terms.

But that's just an opinion - as is the view that complexity points to a creator.

We undestand gravity?

We understand gravity?  We understand why, for example, that the galaxies are moving apart at an accelerating rate in direct opposition to gravitational theory?

We understand how an asymmetrical universe formed from a single release of energy into an empty space (Big Ban Theory, remember?), when that release should have been symmetrical due to the fact that there was nothing there to resist expansion and cause asymmetry?

Face it, Hydro, we don't understand the universe nearly as much as you like to think.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities
of Citizens in the several States.

The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus.
The US Supreme Court

CobraMan, So, we don't

CobraMan,

So, we don't understand anything since we don't have an understanding of everything?

Go it.

OK, let me rephrase what I wrote originally - after science created an empirical model which did a pretty good job of explaining and predicting the motion of the planets, the complexity of that motion no longer seemed so "complex" and didn't need to be attributed to the gods.

How's that?

And I've never mentioned my opinion about the state of cosmology. But go ahead and keep viewing me as some arrogant scientist who thinks that science can and does explain everything.

Don't be foolish, Hydro

"So, we don't understand anything since we don't have an understanding of everything?"

Don't be foolish, Hydro, and stop putting words in my mouth.  I never said that. I said that we don''t understand nearly as much as you think we do.  How did you twist that to mean I believe that we don't understand anything at all?

 "After science created an empirical model which did a pretty good job of
explaining and predicting the motion of the planets, the complexity of
that motion no longer seemed so "complex" and didn't need to be
attributed to the gods.
"

Hydro, how did that motion begin? How did the mass in the universe start moving around itself?  What is the process that explains the initial motions of the galaxies? Can you explain this with current theory?

Gravitational theory only describe the EFFECTS that gravity has on the universe, it doesn't explain what gravity is, or what the true process is that affects the curvature of space time. Correct?  You use only part of an answer to explain the question.   But you think that a partial answer is good enough to negate any other possible answer? That doesn't compute.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities
of Citizens in the several States.

The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus.
The US Supreme Court

CobraMan, My original

CobraMan,

My original point was that once a naturalistic model was developed to help explain the motion of the planets, the "its complex and so much be because of a God" argument lost its impact.

You are saying that since our understanding of gravity or mass or galaxy formation or whatever is incomplete, then we must still entertain the idea of a supernatural agents.

Well, that's a nice argument. Since science will never have a completely naturalistic theory of everything, there's no way to prove you wrong.

Intolerance on Parade

"creationism is not science"

Every time I see this I am reminded of how some supposedly open minded  minded people are actually closed minded when it comes to nature and "science."   What makes your "scientific" assumptions as to how the universe began and works any better, or even slightly different, from any religious assumptions?  Where you actually around when the Universe was created, or when the first cell formed, so you have some first-hand knowledge as to what happened, or is it all guess work?

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities
of Citizens in the several States.

The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus.
The US Supreme Court

Bobby must be doing

Bobby must be doing great........... the msm is attacking him!  I have been watch him since his election and have been impressed ever since!

I agree with

Seashell the story is about Coursic beating up on Jindal.  The winner here is the LA economy, where there is now an opening for a conference to any group that will be more exciting and fun then a bunch of nickel and dime Scientist.  How about filing the date with the TOPGUN Conference.

O's last day 1-20-2013

The perky airhead vs. the intellectual heavyweight

Its funny to even think of Jindal being discussed by that pea-brain.

 

Maven

I watch a lot of old movies on TCM about gangsters and that period in US history. First thing that comes to mind is the term "dumb broad" when I think of Katie.

Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same. RWR

Now that the attacks on

Now that the attacks on Governor Sarah Palin are in full force, secondary targets such as Jindal, Pawlenty, and Romeny will begin. 

 

 

"Gov. Palin has been subjected to one of the most massive and dishonest pile-on smear attacks in the history of liberal media."  -- Lowell Ponte

→ Couric is a RACIST!

Remember Barack Obama claiming he had accepted Jesus as his Lord?

Sounds supernatural to me.  Why didn't Katie call Obama on that?

I can only conclude Katie is attacking Bobby Jindal because of his Indian heritage.

I don't think she's ever attacked blacks or whites for this, so she must have a special hatred for Indian Americans.

There!  See how easy it is to spot the racist?

  • When Liberals raise the bar, expect The Limbo

All Theories Have Holes

Folks, you can point out holes here and there in the theory of evolution all day, it means little.

The absence of evidence for Theory A is not in itself evidence of Theory B.

Governor Jindal knows a little about science...

Bobby Jindal is probably a better scientist than most of those criticizing him.  I gathered some info on his parents and his own educational qualifications. 

Bobby Jindal was born in Baton Rouge in 1971. Jindal's parents came to this country for advanced education. His father, Amar Jindal, is a civil engineer. His mother, Raj Jindal, is an information technology specialist who is assistant secretary of the state Labor Department. Jindal's IQ tested at 146 as he went through the gifted program in the East Baton Rouge School System.
He went to Brown University, where he was an honors student in biology and public policy. A Rhodes Scholar, he was admitted to the medical and law schools of both Harvard and Yale—but chose Oxford instead.

Jindal's wife chose Tulane University, where she lived on campus, and studied chemical engineering, as her father had done. After earning a bachelor's degree, she went on to get a master's in business administration there and most of a Ph.D. at Louisiana State University, where she completed everything but her dissertation in marketing.

It is not hard to have intellectual objections to macro-evolutionary theory.  Basic changes within species occur as certain traits are favored or selected against over time...many examples (the finch beaks) are offered as evidence.  However, these examples are wholly inadequate to explain the appearance of new animals or the "genesis" of life itself.  How many "fruit flies" have been irradiated and mutated in experiments?  Many changes have been observed, but they've still always remained flies.

How many of you believe that everything in the universe was once contained in a space the size of the period at the end of this sentence as current cosmology suggests in the Big Bang theory?  Believing that takes faith!

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wyogator, You can criticize

wyogator,

You can criticize and point out the problems with macro-evolution all you want (and many of those criticisms are quite legitimate) but that will never make ID or creationism or any other supernaturally based theory true by default.

So what exactly is your objection to Big Bang theory? That it's weird and so can't be true? You will have to give me a little more to work with here. Is belief in Big Bang a form of faith? Well, since no scientific theory that uses inductions can be proven true, then yes it is. But it's faith in a naturalistic origin, not faith in a supernatural one. That's kind of an important distinction between science and a theory based on religion. Simply slapping the word "faith" on both doesn't make them the same.

Note: This is an excerpt from a IM sent to wyogator in response to their sending me an IM with this post in it.

I finally got around to reading...

 Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe.  I would highly recommend it to people unsure about evolution.  In it, Behe shows that biomechanical machinery in your body could not evolved the way that Darwin insists they must...through "slight successive variations".  Darwin didn't know about these machines existed because he couldn't see them.  Darwin has made positive contributions to science, but common descent in not one of them.  I challenge these so called scientists to go down to Louisiana and explain to the school children how blood clotting in the human body "evolved".  Prove your evolutionary theory if you're so sure.  I've followed the debate over ID...the Darwinists are scared as hell.  They've smeared and lied about Behe all over the internet.  Their end is coming.

 

http://tinyurl.com/4agrt

Why is criticism smears and lies?

Any new theory or hypothesis is going to get peer reviewed eventually.

There seem to be valid objections to Behe's conclusions:

Biochemical structures and pathways are not built up one step at a time in linear assembly-line fashion to meet some static function. They evolve layer upon layer, contingency upon contingency, always in flux, and retooling to serve current functions. The ability of life to evolve in this fashion has itself evolved over time. Detecting IC does not indicate design, and therefore Behe's hypothesis collapses. H. Allen Orr says it best in his perceptive review:

"Behe's colossal mistake is that, in rejecting these possibilities, he concludes that no Darwinian solution remains. But one does. It is this: An irreducibly complex system can be built gradually by adding parts that, while initially just advantageous, become-because of later changes-essential. The logic is very simple. Some part (A) initially does some job (and not very well, perhaps). Another part (B) later gets added because it helps A. This new part isn't essential, it merely improves things. But later on, A (or something else) may change in such a way that B now becomes indispensable. This process continues as further parts get folded into the system. And at the end of the day, many parts may all be required."

"The point is there's no guarantee that improvements will remain mere improvements. Indeed because later changes build on previous ones, there's every reason to think that earlier refinements might become necessary. The transformation of air bladders into lungs that allowed animals to breathe atmospheric oxygen was initially just advantageous: such beasts could explore open niches-like dry land-that were unavailable to their lung-less peers. But as evolution built on this adaptation (modifying limbs for walking, for instance), we grew thoroughly terrestrial and lungs, consequently, are no longer luxuries-they are essential. The punch-line is, I think, obvious: although this process is thoroughly Darwinian, we are often left with a system that is irreducibly complex. I'm afraid there's no room for compromise here: Behe's key claim that all the components of an irreducibly complex system 'have to be there from the beginning' is dead wrong." [*]

http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Catalano/box/behe.shtml

It's not that easy...

This kind of dismissiveness of the inherent design and complexity of even the simplest life forms is breathtaking.  In these scientists' view, very specific structural additions with very specific purposes insert themselves into the organism, randomly through mutation, adding complexity and advancement to a higher evolutionary plane.

Keep in mind that Behe has described in detail all of the parts along with the precise operation of these structures and how the absence of any one part makes it disfunctional.  Sometimes very specific enzymes must be released to trigger certain actions.  The manufacture of these specifically purposed enzymes is also a complex process that must exist within the organism.  His critics basically tell a story, offering no observed examples, of how a mechanism can gradually grow more complex.  They have a religious faith that if we wait long enough, Darwin fixes everything.  If these structures could have developed incrementally, then Behe's critics should at least be intellectually creative enough to offer a breakdown of the specific steps by which one of these biological machines could have created itself.

 Also keep in mind that the simplest change in design of an organism requires a very specific DNA instruction that won't interfere with other functions.  It may also require complimentary changes or additions for it even to be functional (enzymes, etc). 

 Again, belief in Darwinian evolution requires more faith than belief in an intelligent designer.

Learn about my daughter's Ugandan home for orphans with AIDS at
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Regarding coagulation...

E-GULF

A small part of the evolutionists' problem is that hard objects are never observed spontaneously to transform themselves (on their own recognizance) into abstract ideas. The sun cannot sky-write the fact that it is about 93,000,000 miles from the earth. Neither do events transform themselves automatically into propositions. The meteor that collided with the earth leaving the crater out near Winslow, Arizona, cannot appear on CNN to tell of its journey, or to announce how hot it got streaking across the sky. Nor do space-time relations perceive, define, or narrate their unfolding over time. Events and relations between objects in time and space do not come stamped with date, time, and place of manufacture. While the earth may be affected by the moons of Jupiter in ways that science might detect, a planet is no more able to announce its age or recount its history, or declare the forces to which it is subject, than a dog can recite his pedigree or pronounce his mother's name. But all of the foregoing is hardly apt to be seen as a great difficulty to the lumbering clumsy logic that evolutionists typically apply. Nevertheless, Einstein's Gulf is hard to get around. For any materialistic theory of evolution—i.e., the kinds espoused by Darwin, Freud, Marx, Hitler, Stalin, Sagan, Gould, etc.—all of which propose that non-living chemicals sprang to life which eventually evolved abstract thought, Einstein's Gulf produces a logical burden under which they collapse. All those theories fail to show in a comprehensible and plausible way how it is possible for inert matter to cross Einstein's Gulf.

(GRINS)   kilrod

Remember, only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier

kilrod, "Einstein's Gulf"

kilrod,

"Einstein's Gulf" seems to be an idea based on an observation made by Einstein (and certainly not unique to him) that science is a man made creation - an attempt to model what we perceive with our senses - which is distinct from nature itself.

It seems to me - and correct me if I'm wrong - that Dr. Oller (the guy who wrote what you posted - and by the way, unless that's you, you should probably provide a citation) has taken this idea and somehow twisted it into an idea about inanimate objects having to somehow transcend a "gulf" to become animate.

This was Einstein's original quote (reproduced here):

We have the habit of combining certain concepts and conceptual
relations (propositions) so definitely with certain sense experiences
that we do not become conscious of the gulf—logically
unbridgeable—which separates the world of sensory experiences from the
world of concepts and propositions (1944, p. 289).

Am I missing something here?

Dr. Oller

 Yep, i need to give credit to Dr. Oller and his organization, so here it is;  As follows,

This article was originally published September, 2000. "Einstein's Gulf: Can Evolution Cross it?", Institute for Creation Research, http://www.icr.org/a... (accessed February 20, 2009). 

(© 2009 Institute for Creation Research. All Rights Reserved. http://icr.org) Dr. Oller is a Proffessor of Communicative Disorders at the University of Louisiana.

The point you evolutionist miss is that your theory of evolution, that you can't prove, is from the outset an insult to my God, my beleif, and my faith. You don't hesitate to insult me, and insist that your unproven theory is the only theory that should be taught, why should i hesitate to contradict you?

kilrod

Remember, only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier

kilrod, OK. You didn't

kilrod,

OK. You didn't address my comment about the quote that you dug up, but whatever.

So, us "evolutionists" are missing the point that evolution isn't proven. Interesting. If you bothered to actually ask one us dumb ass scientists, they would tell you that any theory that uses inductive reasoning (like most scientific theories do) can't be "proven". But I'm sure you knew that.

Why don't you start taking digs at Relativity or Quantum Mechanics while you're at it? Technically, neither of those are "proven" and both have their problems.

I'm sorry if you are insulted by scientists and their attempt to explain things from a purely naturalistic view. Although, I'm thinking part of the reason you are insulted is because you fail to understand that since science can't comment on God, it can't affirm or deny God's existence. So technically, science has nothing to say about your faith or beliefs. So why be insulted?

And to clarify, most scientists think evolution should be taught in science class since it's the only scientific theory regarding the origin and development of life around. We have no problem teaching creationism or ID in school - just not in a science class because - and call me crazy here - those aren't scientific theories.

But saying that something isn't a scientific theory isn't the same as saying it isn't true. Many (if not most) scientists know that. Maybe you should keep that in mind next time you want to go off on "evolutionists".

Katie

  katie-couric-paints-gov-jindal-state-louisiana-foes-scientific-communi

Katie couric cannot even paint her fingernails correctly.

 

What a dweeb!!!

misterb... LOL...I imagine

misterb...

LOL...I imagine she pays for someone else to do that for her too!

Aaaaaah---so now they're

Aaaaaah---so now they're getting around to criticizing Bobby Jindal.

Pretty obvious who should be the GOP frontrunners...just look at who the MSM jumps on...they're the ones they're most frightened of and want to discredit.

All we have to do now is hope these 'independents' won't throw too big of a monkey wrench in the state GOP primaries...like last time.

One of the 24% who thinks George W. Bush was a great President. One of the 89% who wants to bring back the stock and pillory.

Religion and Science

God is sitting in Heaven when a scientist says to him. “Lord, we don’t need you anymore.  Science has finally figured out a way to create life out of nothing.  In other words, we can now do what you did ‘in the beginning’.”
 
“Oh, is that so? Tell me…” replies God
 
“Well,” says the scientist, “we can take dirt and form it into the likeness of you and breath life into it, thus creating man,”
 
“Well, that’s interesting.  Show me.”
 
So the scientist bends down to the Earth and starts to mold the soil.
 
“Oh no, no, no…” interrupts God, 
  
 
“…get your own dirt.”

A good scientist can be a believer...

Isaac Newton believed that he could determine formulas for the motion of planets and the calculus and optics and so on because he believed in a God who created an ordered universe and that all he had to do was discern and discover God's laws.  He was a devoted Biblical scholar who believed the Bible was literally true and wrote a book titled "Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse of St. John."

Dr. Werhner von Braun was the Director of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center and the architect of the Saturn V moon rocket.  During a debate in California (1972) about whether to teach creation along with evolution as a possible explanation for the origin of life, he wrote this letter:

  Dear Mr. Grose: In response to your inquiry about my personal views concerning the “Case for DESIGN” as a viable scientific theory or the origin of the universe, life and man, I am pleased to make the following observations.

For me, the idea of a creation is not conceivable without evoking the necessity of design. One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be design and purpose behind it all. In the world round us, we can behold the obvious manifestations of an ordered, structured plan or design. We can see the will of the species to live and propagate. And we are humbled by the powerful forces at work on a galactic scale, and the purposeful orderliness of nature that endows a tiny and ungainly seed with the ability to develop into a beautiful flower. The better we understand the intricacies of the universe and all harbors, the more reason we have found to marvel at the inherent design upon which it is based.

While the admission of a design for the universe ultimately raises the question of a Designer (a subject outside of science), the scientific method does not allow us to exclude data which lead to the conclusion that the universe, life and man are based on design. To be forced to believe only one conclusion—that everything in the universe happened by chance—would violate the very objectivity of science itself.

Certainly there are those who argue that the universe evolved out of a random process, but what random process could produce the brain of a man or the system or the human eye?

Some people say that science has been unable to prove the existence of a Designer. They admit that many of the miracles in the world around us are hard to understand, and they do not deny that the universe, as modern science sees it, is indeed a far more wondrous thing than the creation medieval man could perceive. But they still maintain that since science has provided us with so many answers the day will soon arrive when we will be able to understand even the creation of the fundamental laws of nature without a Divine intent. They challenge science to prove the existence of God. But must we really light a candle to see the sun?

Many men who are intelligent and of good faith say they cannot visualize a Designer. Well, can a physicist visualize an electron? The electron is materially inconceivable and yet it is so perfectly known through its effects that we use it to illuminate our cities, guide our airlines through the night skies and take the most accurate measurements. What strange rationale makes some physicists accept the inconceivable electrons as real while refusing to accept the reality of a Designer on the ground that they cannot conceive Him? I am afraid that, although they really do not understand the electron either, they are ready to accept it because they managed to produce a rather clumsy mechanical model of it borrowed from rather limited experience in other fields, but they would not know how to begin building a model of God.

I have discussed the aspect of a Designer at some length because it might be that the primary resistance to acknowledging the “Case for Design” as a viable scientific alternative to the current “Case for Chance” lies in the inconceivability, in some scientists’ minds, of a Designer. The inconceivability of some ultimate issue (which will always lie outside scientific resolution) should not be allowed to rule out any theory that explains the interrelationship of observed data and is useful for prediction.

We in NASA were often asked what the real reason was for the amazing string of successes we had with our Apollo flights to the Moon. I think the only honest answer we could give was that we tried to never overlook anything. It is in that same sense of scientific honesty that I endorse the presentation of alternative theories for the origin of the universe, life and man in the science classroom. It would be an error to overlook the possibility that the universe was planned rather than happened by chance.

With kindest regards.

Sincerely,

Wernher von Braun

Learn about my daughter's Ugandan home for orphans with AIDS at
www.africaourownhome.org