Update at bottom of post.
Leave it to CNN to worry that the Colombian government committed a war crime in its recent rescue of FARC hostages, including former presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt.
This morning in the Latest News menu on CNN.com, I found this teaser headline (shown in screen capture at right): "Did Colombia skirt law in hostage rescue?"
My curiosity piqued, I followed the link to an article by CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul entitled "Colombia military used Red Cross emblem in rescue."
That clever ploy could constitute a big no-no under the Geneva Conventions, Penhaul insisted, citing an international law expert:
BOGOTA, Colombia (CNN) -- Colombian military intelligence used the Red Cross emblem in a rescue operation in which leftist guerrillas were duped into handing over 15 hostages, according to unpublished photographs and video viewed by CNN.
Photographs of the Colombian military intelligence-led team that spearheaded the rescue, shown to CNN by a confidential military source, show one man wearing a bib with the Red Cross symbol. The military source said the three photos were taken moments before the mission took off to persuade the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia rebels to release the hostages to a supposed international aid group for transport to another rebel area.
Such a use of the Red Cross emblem could constitute a "war crime" under the Geneva Conventions and international humanitarian law and could endanger humanitarian workers in the future, according to international legal expert Mark Ellis, executive director of the International Bar Association.
"It is clear that the conventions are very strict regarding use of the symbol because of what it represents: impartiality, neutrality. The fear is that any misuse of the symbol would weaken that neutrality and would weaken the [Red Cross]," Ellis said.
"If you use the emblem in a deceitful way, generally the conventions say it would be a breach. [Based on the information as explained to me,] the way that the images show the Red Cross emblem being used could be distinguished as a war crime, " he added.
Penhaul then noted that CNN did not buy the material their confidential source wished to sell, and hence was unable to independently verify the allegation.
Yet even if the allegation is true, so what? The hostages rescued were, well, civilian hostages, held for years by FARC, a narco-terrorist outfit that has plagued Colombia for years. Even if the letter of Geneva was violated, how does it violate the spirit of the international conventions?
Hostages were rescued without a shot being fired. Turning a successful, bloodless rescue operation into an occasion to criticize the Colombian government of a "war crime" is sensationalistic at best and encouraging to terrorist sympathizers at worst.
Update (17:05 EDT): Colombia President Alvaro Uribe conceded that one soldier involved in the hostage rescue slapped on a Red Cross insignia during the operation out of fear for his life. Bloomberg has the story:
July 16 (Bloomberg) -- Colombian President Alvaro Uribe apologized to the Red Cross after a soldier used the agency's emblem when he was pretending to be an aid worker earlier this month during the rescue of 15 hostages held by guerrillas.
Uribe said the soldier attached the insignia to his jacket because he feared for his life. The soldier saw a great number of Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia fighters as he climbed down from the unmarked helicopter, Uribe said.
Government troops on July 2 rescued Ingrid Betancourt, three U.S. Defense Department contractors and 11 military personnel by tricking two commanders of the FARC, as the drug-funded group is known, into believing an international aid mission had been sent by the guerrillas' leadership to retrieve the captives.
—Ken Shepherd is Managing Editor of NewsBusters
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Hmmm, putting on my
July 16, 2008 - 10:20 ET by Dan The Man 2Hmmm, putting on my asbesteos suit here. Use of the Red Cross is a problem because they are protected under the GC. It is not a war crime but if captured they may be spies and sabotuers under the GC. Of course the FARC are also spies and sabotuers so therin the delima.
I am glad teh FARC no longer has those hostages and from what I understand there were no blood spilt. So the legalities aside is it ethical to use a recognized emblem for a cover backstory for teh rescurers? Since they are not Americans it doesnt matter to me.
But, if we get all hot and bothered at Palestinains and Hezbollah using those types of covers should we not get such at any time? Just an ethical question and thank God I dont have to skirt such issues in my work.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
It'd clearly be a violation
July 16, 2008 - 10:34 ET by Ken ShepherdIt'd clearly be a violation if Colombia sent in commandos dressed as Red Cross volunteers and they up and opened fire and gunned the whole damn FARC nest. That's not what happened.
These guys, as I understand, were unarmed. It's unlikely that Intl. Red Cross assented to or cooperated in the ruse, if in fact the Colombia govt. deployed this ruse as the CNN source is suggesting.
Plus even if the letter of Geneva were violated, the spirit was not. Rescuing hostages from a terrorist outfit using nonviolent subterfuge does not a war crime make.
Holding civilians hostage for four years, that's more like a war crime in my estimation.
Thje Red Cross used was England national flag
July 16, 2008 - 10:50 ET by Jack BauerKS -- besides, the Red Cross organization does NOT have a monopoly on the symbol of a red cross on white.
It is the national flag on England and has been for a quite a few hundred years before the Red Cross stole it for itself.
As a free born Englishman, I hereby grant RETROACTIVE permission to the Columbian government to use the official symbol of the English nation for the power of good.
easy to say when you AREN'T a full-time red cross worker...
July 16, 2008 - 17:29 ET by abeautifulperson...working in various war zones or places of conflict.
the whole point of NOT impersonating a red cross worker is to ensure that in the future when they are in a hot zone, they don't get shot. if it becomes known that militants, mercenaries, military or whoever are using this international symbol as a shield, it makes all red cross workers, targets.
early in iraq in a safe area, a couple unembedded canadian media came upon 2 other men with dark sunglasses, "press" on their flak jackets and on their vehicle. when the canadian media introduced themselves to their fellow media personnel, they were abruptly told to get lost and then realized they had stumbled upon a military reconnaissance.
impersonation of these types end up hurting innocents and diminish trust of non-military organizations. how many innocent press or other civilians have been killed because this underhanded tactic is used on both sides of the iraq conflict?
ABP as usual your grasp of
July 16, 2008 - 17:53 ET by Dan The Man 2ABP as usual your grasp of real world is at best limp. Anytime a country sends spies into a hostile area they are camouflaged, either military type or as locals or as reporters. If caught they are spies and that is the thrust of the GC. I have no problem with this type of subterfuge and expect the outcome either way.
Personally I believe media is not protected as the Red Cross is. In addition the Red Cross is not used by normal US military. Also the bias of the reporter assumed he stumbled onto military recon. We should possibly shoot all media anyways.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
dan boy
July 17, 2008 - 05:18 ET by abeautifulpersonyou are as predictable as the rising sun. shoot all media. now we know how you really feel with freedom of the press. don't report what you like to hear, shoot 'em.
You're the predictable one.
July 17, 2008 - 07:01 ET by dvdaughtryYou're the predictable one. We know we will hear news we don't like. However, most of us want the truth and a little common sense--something our media doesn't do while hiding behind "freedom of the press."
You trying to say Jesus Christ can't hit a curveball?
Abeautifulperson. What i
July 16, 2008 - 18:02 ET by BDAbeautifulperson.
What i take exception to is that the press is getting worked up about a guy placing a red cross pin on his jacket as a possible method of subterfuge, for which the Columbian Government has already apologized and admitted that the soldier in question did not have any authroization to do so.
Our enemies regularly butcher thousands of innocents, beheads civilians and captive military people as they kneel before them, and shelters in mosques, churches, and civilian homes and the press presents it as a ho-hum story if they notice at all.
What kind of therapy does it take to get to this position? I really need to know....
i hear ya. it was a faux pas to be mentioned at all.
July 17, 2008 - 05:27 ET by abeautifulpersonsometimes, the media needs to keep their yaps shut. it was wrong to have been done (using the patch). but once done, reporting it puts all legit in all red cross workers under suspicion and in danger.
the only point reporting it would make is to begin illustrating the possibility that pretending to be red cross workers is done all the time. in that case it IS news.
too bad dan the boy doesn't know the difference between impersonating civilians or military personnel and impersonating an officially neutral organization.
btw. your enemies chop the heads of innocents. their enemies drop missiles from miles away and have hair triggers when passing through intersections. to someone standing back, doesn't look much different either way. people are dying needlessly.
btw. your enemies chop the
July 17, 2008 - 06:46 ET by Karmabtw. your enemies chop the heads of innocents. their enemies drop
missiles from miles away and have hair triggers when passing through
intersections. to someone standing back, doesn't look much different
either way. people are dying needlessly. (abeautifulperson)
I would suggest that they (you) stop standing back so far and take a closer look. Then the difference is stark. You even used the keyword in your first sentence.
btw. your enemies chop the
July 17, 2008 - 09:30 ET by BDbtw. your enemies chop the heads of innocents. their enemies drop missiles from miles away and have hair triggers when passing through intersections.
abeautifulthief
July 16, 2008 - 21:23 ET by UnsaneYet NOT ONE PEEP from you about the FARC taking hostages.
The FARC can do whatever the hell it wants, but heaven help us if the armed forces of a representative democracy does something to defend itself or to protect/defend its citizens. At which point, you pitch a b!#$h. (Freedom is 100% FREE and EASY to attain in the world in which abeautifulthief lives...)
"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." - from the Bhagavad Gita, quoted by J. Robert Oppenheimer at 0530 MST on 16 July 1945
Unsane, perhaps ABP would feel better if the hostages...
July 16, 2008 - 22:55 ET by R D Helm...were returned to their captors.
It is APB, and people of similar ilk, that are dragging us all toward the abyss, due solely to their utter stupidity.
-Sorry, but I can think of no other word here. The word "ignorance" just doesn't cut it. This is nothing less than rampant stupidity.
The left, whose collective (God I hate that word) hatred for true freedom is so evident for all to see, has brainwashed so many into mindless subservency.
Of course, what can you expect from lefties like ABP, who literally stood up and cheered when Janet Reno, with the full blessings of B.J. Clinton, executed a kidnapping for Fidel Castro when they returned Elian Gonzales to that hell-hole known as Cuba.
The truth is insensitive. - Neal Boortz
→ ergo?
July 16, 2008 - 23:30 ET by Cool ArrowDoes it necessarily follow that a favorable result is proof the means were justifiable?
Would a policeman be justified in wiretapping a confessional if he reasonably believed a serial rapist frequentd that church?
People perceive varying degrees of what is sacred.
And maybe Janet Reno's behavior somehow excuses the tactics in this incident, though I don't see it.
From a Geneva Convention standpoint I don't see a connection, though I do think there are legitimate questions as to the ethical use of a proclaimed neutral organization and its symbol.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
pffft
July 17, 2008 - 05:31 ET by abeautifulpersondon't change the subject. a common tactic when someone makes a point: assume, because an action from side is disapproved of that all actions from the other side are approved. lame lame lame.
(why do i respond to such unworthy comments?)
Because you have a
July 17, 2008 - 05:44 ET by Jack BauerBecause you have a pathological need to have the last word. It's a well-documented lieberal condition.
Just like you will be unable to resist answering this post with some boring, irrelevant comment.
For abeautifulthief
July 17, 2008 - 06:42 ET by UnsaneUnworthy comments? abeautifulthief, your Socialist agitprop and your lame attempts to bark orders at me are indeed quite unworthy.
And do you actually think you are somehow smarter and better than the rest of us here? Just to remind you of what you are up against, remember your chirping about how perfect Canada was, and how you got slapped around for it, AND how fast you ran away. Your silence on that subject still deafens.
Finally: changing the subject? Hardly. Here you are bitching about how the hostages got rescued by the terrorists, and I merely made the point that the last thing on your mind are the hostages and their rights; which you have once again illustrated.
Whoever casts a vote for Barack Obama is nothing more than a common thief. Whoever fails to vote against him is nothing more than a moral coward.
whoosh - (the sound of a point blowing over your head).
July 17, 2008 - 09:46 ET by abeautifulpersonran away? >chuckle< my life doesn't revolve around newsbusters.
you think far too much of yourself. my 'silence' is me doing other things.
up against? umm... i do picture a blurred face which is foaming at the mouth, when i read your text.
hostages rescued by terrorists? old man, you're confusing me with someone else. smarter? perhaps. more on the ball? definitely.
more stupidity
July 17, 2008 - 22:58 ET by Unsaneran away? >chuckle< my life doesn't revolve around newsbusters Coulda fooled me. Dying to have the last word on this post is proof positive that your life indeed DOES revolve around NB. (The only reason I know about your post is my "track" feature.)
you think far too much of yourself. Speak for yourself and ONLY for yourself. my 'silence' is me doing other things. Like evading points and questions after getting smacked around because you have nothing with which to argue but agitprop and Socialist talking points..
up against? umm... i do picture a blurred face which is foaming at the mouth, when i read your text. Well, my mouth better be foaming. On occasion I do answer posts when brushing my teeth. :-) In your case I picture someone who will violently, savagely beat anyone who dares disagree with your Socialist view of the world in the slightest.
hostages rescued by terrorists? Huh? Put the drugs away... old man damn, what did a thirtysomething do to deserve "old man"?, you're confusing me with someone else. Nah. Dealing directly with YOUR posts. smarter? perhaps. hardly. more on the ball? definitely not.
.Whoever casts a vote for Barack Obama is nothing more than a common thief. Whoever fails to vote against him is nothing more than a moral coward.
i've been to colombia
July 17, 2008 - 09:20 ET by abeautifulpersoni've hiked the colombian jungles and connected with colombian people. have you?
again with the lame absolutes. because i disapprove of the red cross patch being used, i must approve of the FARC. you guys are like a broken record with the absolutes.
abeaut
July 17, 2008 - 09:55 ET by bassndudeIn a word...yes. I have even gone with Colombian soldiers on patrols, looking for FARC. I have seen the results of FARC raids on a small jungle village. Have you?
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
yes. i've seen what FARC can do. that's 2 of us.
July 17, 2008 - 10:15 ET by abeautifulpersonbut this thread isn't about how bad FARC is. EVERYONE is in agreement at how the so-called rebel group has denegrated into a criminal organization. why does it keep coming up?
this thread is about how impersonating a neutral organization that helps millions of people in the worst situations, can cause more harm than good. reasonable people see how wrong it is. uribe does.
anyhow. i'm going to run away now. i do this when threads slide into a muddle of hurling insults, which i am also responsible for. i don't like doing it and i actually apologize for it. its not the reason i offer views which many don't agree with. believe it or not, sometimes i do learn from these threads. its not all about just jabbing you guys. it is ssad when the sharp sticks come out. but hey, i expect it. comes with the territory.
oh and next time i travel and am not sitting at my computer, i will be silent. while it might be some people's wet dreams picturing me in a fetal position, sobbing under my computer in defeat, its not the case.
catch you on another thread.
nuff said.
this thread is about how
July 17, 2008 - 10:19 ET by BDthis thread is about how impersonating a neutral organization that helps millions of people in the worst situations, can cause more harm than good. reasonable people see how wrong it is. uribe does.
You are the one that
July 17, 2008 - 10:23 ET by bassndudeYou are the one that brought it up. With you smug little way, "I have..." assuming that we have never traveled, nor have the vast worldly experiences you have had. Boy, I was traveling the world while your mama was still thinking about her next class.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
FARC & RED CROSS in cahoots for years?
July 17, 2008 - 04:36 ET by Jack BauerYou are arse about face.
It was the terrorists who automatically accepted the Red Cross as a trusted NGO there to assist them in moving innocent people they had kidnapped, tortured, and imprisoned for years.
Why would they trust the Red Cross? Why did the commie terrorists fall for that ruse?
Easy! FARC and the RED CROSS had clearly been in cahoots in the past to transport these poor people from one cage to another. That's why.
So, what did the Colunbian government owe the Red Cross in this case where the RC had obviously assisted the terrorists in the past? Absolutely NOTHING. Say it again.
The Red Cross has VIOLATED its own reputation.
i wonder if you asked Ingrid Betancourt...
July 17, 2008 - 09:24 ET by abeautifulperson... what she would say? would she have wanted the red cross checking up on her health throughout those years of captivity or prefer no neutral organization checking at all.
do you think she feels they were in cahoots?
Amazing. You REFUSE to
July 17, 2008 - 12:30 ET by Jack BauerAmazing. You REFUSE to consider the obvious, then ask a question about what Betancourt "might" say.
I have no freakin' idea. But I'll guess: she'll say thank god you did it. There, I answered your rhetorical question. Happy?
Ken, I agree if they were
July 16, 2008 - 11:14 ET by Dan The Man 2Ken, I agree if they were commandos, which they likely were and armed. However the problem lies in teh accepted use of such a symbol and the nuetrality it implies. In the world today we cant trust anyone at anytime, which is sad, but the Red Cross is able to get into areas of conflict and not molested because they are not part of the combat. Like I pointed out the Islam facists ar using these very types of symbols and that makes them terroists. A modern ethics problem, how low do we go. Limbo now.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Im sorry Ken, but the only
July 16, 2008 - 12:23 ET by bassndudeIm sorry Ken, but the only way to make this right is to go back in and do it again, but this time kill FARC and torture any that suvrive the initial attack. After all, the real red cross needs something to do.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Morality
July 16, 2008 - 12:00 ET by KC MulvilleThese are standard philosophical ethics questions.
Should you save lives now, even if it will increase the risk to other lives? As a rule, we don’t compare the value of lives. Two people who die today are as important as two later on.
There is the issue of numbers. Maybe saving these ten will put a hundred at greater risk next time. Problem: how can you compare the actual freedom of ten to the increase of risk for a hundred?
Apparently, we’re taking for granted that the future terrorists will retaliate against future Red Cross workers. But think about that. How would they retaliate? Would they murder workers in revenge? Highly unlikely, since one terrorist group doesn’t care about what happens to other terrorist groups. It’s not like terrorists feel they need to uphold the honor of their fellow kidnappers. More likely, they will simply refuse any RC workers from coming into their defense area. That means the Red Cross workers will have to guarantee their identity. (Am I to understand that these terrorists saw the emblem and that alone convinced them? Not very bright.) That means that you have to compare the probability of freedom now against the probability of loss of Red Cross care.
By the way, have any terrorists ever used deceptive means to infiltrate a secure area? If you don't play by the rules yourself, you lose the right to expect others to play by them.
From the Red Cross’ point of view, it’s curious. They want to help the hostages, but they don’t want to help free them.
Then there is the issue of information. The risk to future hostages may be increased, but only if the future terrorists know about this little trick. If you use the trick and don’t tell anyone, maybe the next group won’t know about it. Let’s just hope no one is stupid or selfish enough to broadcast this trick to future terrorists … oh yeah, right … the media’s already done that.
So, if the “public’s right to know” will endanger them by the sheer fact of their knowing it, is it moral to publish or broadcast it? And does the media’s right to free speech trump the safety of future hostages? (It seems clear that the media’s public questions about the morality of a Red Cross deception are at least as dangerous as the deception itself.)
Especially since the Red Cross workers weren’t trying to kill anyone, I’d have certainly chosen to allow it. No question.
Use of Red Cross Symbol
July 16, 2008 - 12:00 ET by merlin61Instead of this needless commentary caused by CNN, lets ask those who were rescued if they
cared if the Red Cross symbol was used. Seems
to me five years of captivity and loss of family
and all other indignities they were caused outweighs
any of this conversation.
Answers
July 16, 2008 - 12:16 ET by cassrat1. Use of the Red Cross is a problem.
WRONG! the real answer is: The Red Cross is a problem period.
2. I understand there were no blood spilt.
Answer: There should have been blood. All of the FARC goons should have been killed.
3. But, if we get all hot and bothered at Palestinains and Hezbollah using those types of covers should we not get such at any time?
Answer: NO!!! The Palestinians and Hezbollah use the cover of the red cross and crescent to KILL people. There is a difference between Killing and Rescueing.
reasonable point imo
July 16, 2008 - 12:27 ET by DaMavCalling this a "war crime" is a little overblown, regardless of the technical classification, and the Big Liberal Media is no doubt up to its usual tricks in trying to discredit a valiant and brilliant hostage rescue that made some far left dirtbags look like idiots.
Nevertheless if the Red Cross symbol was used it was a mistake to use it imo, because it places Red Cross workers lives in danger if it becomes commonly viewed as subterfuge. The emphasis should be on why CNN makes a big deal out of this only when it can be used to sully a victory against terrorists, and rarely if ever when it is used by Palestinians etc etc.
I'd call it a minor error which should not be repeated; hardly a big deal but certainly not justifiable when they could have just used an Opossum presidential seal and gotten the same results.
reasonable point imo
July 16, 2008 - 12:27 ET by DaMavCalling this a "war crime" is a little overblown, regardless of the technical classification, and the Big Liberal Media is no doubt up to its usual tricks in trying to discredit a valiant and brilliant hostage rescue that made some far left dirtbags look like idiots.
Nevertheless if the Red Cross symbol was used it was a mistake to use it imo, because it places Red Cross workers lives in danger if it becomes commonly viewed as subterfuge. The emphasis should be on why CNN makes a big deal out of this only when it can be used to sully a victory against terrorists, and rarely if ever when it is used by Palestinians etc etc.
I'd call it a minor error which should not be repeated; hardly a big deal but certainly not justifiable when they could have just used an Opossum presidential seal and gotten the same results.
Seriously...
July 16, 2008 - 10:31 ET by blogonatorYet even if the allegation is true, so what?
Ask the people working for the Red Cross in war zones. This should not be condemned because it's a sneaky tactic. Far worse is done in the name of war. This should be condemned because it destroys the integrity of the Red Cross emblem and encourages warring factions to distrust and/or attack people working for the Red Cross.
Unwise perhaps, but not a
July 16, 2008 - 10:54 ET by Ken ShepherdUnwise perhaps, but not a war crime, at least not in the spirit of the Geneva Conventions, which was never designed to extend safety to terrorist entities that take hostages.
Remember, this wasn't FARC capturing Colombian troops after a battle in the jungles of Colombia, this is the terrorist outfit holding for years on end civilians.
Insofar as a violation of the Geneva Conventions
July 16, 2008 - 11:04 ET by blogonatoris a war crime, this was evidently a war crime.
I've seen some posts here already insinuating holding the Columbians responsible for this alleged misuse amounts to protecting the FARC. No. It protects the people working for the Red Cross. When the Red Cross is no longer trusted to act impartially in the interest of the wounded on both sides, it will cease to be able to function. Misusing the red cross for purposes such as these will destroy that trust.
And if the Intl. Red Cross
July 16, 2008 - 11:16 ET by Ken ShepherdAnd if the Intl. Red Cross wants to sue the Colombian govt. in Colombia's courts, it should feel free to do so.
But regardless, it's notable that CNN would fixate on this being an alleged war crime when it's pretty obvious that FARC has committed far worse violations of Colombian and international law.
Now that's a different subject
July 16, 2008 - 11:58 ET by blogonatorAnd that gets to the stated reason for this website to exist.
What is news and how should it be packaged?
Is it news that the FARC likes to take hostages and hold them captive indefinitely in the jungle for ransom or just for the heck of it? Maybe the first couple times it happens. After a while though, not so much. Certainly not to the average American I would argue.
Now is it news that the Columbian government may have committed a war crime in it's daring hostage rescue operation? I think you could make a strong case that it is. I don't have the impression that Columbia is in the habit of violating the Geneva Conventions. Furthermore, this piggybacks nicely on the broader story of this rescue operation and draws that story out over a longer time frame. Milk it for all it's worth.
So I'd argue this is newsworthy from the standpoint of an editor. Is it newsworthy for a conservative media watchdog website? Eh, I'm not so sure. This story wasn't being trumpeted as the "story of the day." It's so subdued in actual context that you had to circle it lest it be missed entirely. The article wasn't painting el FARC in a particularly sympathetic light either.
That doesn't make me want to take the FARC's side.
But it does have the red meat your audience craves: war crimes! Somebody violating the Geneva Conventions in their battle with terrorism! And you don't have to look too far here to see the knee-jerk reactions to that subject matter.
News
July 16, 2008 - 12:59 ET by KC MulvilleBlogonator, I'll argue that you have it exactly backward. It wasn't that Ken was trying to throw out red meat to the NewsBuster audience, to prompt knee-jerk reactions. Ken's report is exactly the opposite. He was pointing out that CNN was sensationalizing a nonviolent infraction by calling it a possible "war crime." If there's any sensationalizing going on here, it isn't by Ken.
The liberal bias in the media doesn't only come in big, whopping, Dan Rather-ego-size bombshells. Those come along every so often, sure enough. But it's the drip-drip-drip erosion of all these "little" zingers and comments that, over time, do far worse damage. Of course this was a comparatively little item, but it's just as dangerous. It adds up. The liberal media constantly diminishes respect for anything conservative or Republican, not in big chunks, but in the sheer volume of small slashes.
I disagree
July 16, 2008 - 14:10 ET by blogonatorIf CNN wanted to sensationalize this story, they could have done a better job such that Ken wouldn't have had to circle the link, don't you think? A link which, by the way, doesn't even mention "war crimes." Imagine the headline for this story if it was linked from the Drudge Report. That ought to give you a good idea as to how subdued the CNN presentation in context actually is. In fact, compare the link from NewsBusters:
CNN: Did Colombia Commit War Crime in FARC Hostage Rescue?
to what you saw at CNN:
Did Columbia skirt law in hostage rescue?
Who's really doing the sensationalizing here? I don't think I need to answer that question.
I recognize my analysis doesn't jibe with the conventional wisdom and biases around here, i.e., CNN is a shamelessly liberal media outlet that "constantly diminishes respect for anything conservative or Republican." So be it.
As for your bullet points, they're irrelvant to what I wrote at the outset. The hostages and what they must be feeling is not the story here. The story is the alleged misuse of the red cross emblem within this broader hostage rescue story. What constitutes misuse and why is misuse unadvisable / illegal? The article does a fairly good job answering those questions if you actually bother to read it. As for Guantanamo news, when the story changes, when a new revelation comes up about this or that, it becomes news again. You'll probably not find a reporter from any news organization on assignment at Guantanamo. They have pretty much have forgotten it. Look, there goes Madonna and A Rod!
I disagree.....Now there's
July 16, 2008 - 14:25 ET by bassndudeI disagree.....Now there's a shocker. Only you could get Madonna and A Rod into a rescue mission from terrorists.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
You can't get much better than this
July 16, 2008 - 14:34 ET by CobraMan"If CNN wanted to sensationalize this story, they could have done a better job."
The CNN headline says: “Colombian military used Red Cross emblem in rescue.” You can’t get much better than that.
Maybe we have different definitions of "better job"
July 16, 2008 - 14:47 ET by blogonatorHere's sensational:
War Criminal Columbian Military Utilizes Illegal Tactics Against Honorable Freedom Fighters
Sensational and clearly biased, everything that CNN headline and linking text is not. The CNN headline didn't even use an adjective for goodness sake.
Reply
July 16, 2008 - 14:34 ET by KC MulvilleThe text of the link may not have said "war crimes," but the article it links to did (which I read, by the way). "Such a use of the Red Cross emblem could constitute a "war crime" under the Geneva Conventions ..." First sentence, third paragraph.
As for my point about how the captives feel, it was simply to appreciate that the hostages were returned to freedom. To magnify, therefore, a nonviolent infraction is the definition of sensationalizing the issue. As for Guantanamo, if freshness justifies reporting, then there should never have been any stories about Guantanamo after 2003. But the liberal media, including CNN, has filed dozens of reports. That means it isn't about news judgment, but political bias, that's driving the reporting -- which is what this site complains about.
It's disingenuous to claim that the reason anyone disagrees with you is that you're not part of the NewsBuster herd mentality. If that's how you perceive this audience, why bother posting anything? The fact is, most people here enjoy debating different points of view, but only if you can defend it. If you're just going to toss off smart ass insults, yeah, you get a bunch of smart ass posts in return. But my experience is that if you give people here a reasonable argument, you get respect in return, even if they disagree with you.
Is 'war crime' on the NB list of banned terms for the MSM?
July 16, 2008 - 15:29 ET by blogonatorI see no problem with calling a spade a spade. It's usually the adherents of the "politically correct" philosophy that want to shift away from uncomfortably honest terms like this one.
I think I've done a pretty good job explaining my position. The text of the links is not my focus, but it is a very convenient supporting point.
Allow me to take it one step further. Posts like this are not constructive. If you see evidence of unvarnished media bias, go ahead and point it out. This CNN article is clearly not an example of that. And for the people who don't take the time to actually read the article, you can see how the presentation here has enhanced their ignorance. The article wasn't about how the FARC is being protected by the Geneva Conventions. It wasn't about how CNN wants to defend the FARC. It wasn't about how the Red Cross is in bed with the FARC. Yet a few twirls of the scroll wheel will show you those take-away opinions being voiced right here.
And I don't think your claim that CNN is magnifying this story holds any water. Ken himself inadvertly demonstrated how obscure CNN's placement of the link to the story was. Now here's the link to CNN's stories about FARC. Now check this out, a simple Google search for CNN and FARC. The CNN story does not appear on the first page, except as a link from RIGHT HERE on NewsBusters! No sign of it on page 2 either, execpt as a link from Digg by someone else with an ax to grind. Here's the Google News search results. Again, nada. Now who really is 'magnifying' this story? I would argue it isn't CNN.
CNN is reporting an auxiliary story to the main story of the rescue of these hostages which they obviously have gotten a lot of hits out of. They are not promoting this story as anything other than that. Looks to me that the people who are promoting it are, oddly enough, NewsBusters and their ideologically similar crowd.
Which is why I've never made that claim. I post here because I find it an educational experience, as I've already told my friend BD. I've got some family members that would probably buy what NewsBusters is selling, but I don't see them often. My friends and associates are frequently more liberal than me. Even though internet debate is a pale, pale comparison to face-to-face conversation, I find it useful to at least be aware of the ideas being peddled here and elsewhere. So ignore me if you like. But if you engage me, I'll probably not back down in the face of name-calling and dismissive labeling. You better be ready to grapple with my ideas.
Aaron Brown, is that you?
July 16, 2008 - 16:02 ET by Ken ShepherdAaron Brown, is that you?
I say have a do-over. The
July 16, 2008 - 16:15 ET by Roger the ShrubberI say have a do-over. The poor freedom fighters did not have a fighting chance. I say we return the hostages and start over.
Happy to oblige
July 16, 2008 - 19:30 ET by KC MulvilleBut if you engage me, I'll probably not back down in the face of name-calling and dismissive labeling. Excuse me for pointing out that you were the one who described the NewsBusters audience as a herd, when you wrote: “I recognize my analysis doesn't jibe with the conventional wisdom and biases around here.”
You better be ready to grapple with my ideas. Unfortunately, you don’t present anything to grapple with. Here’s an example: “If you see evidence of unvarnished media bias, go ahead and point it out. This CNN article is clearly not an example of that.” That isn’t an argument. That’s a conclusion.
Your actual argument was that the taking of hostages isn’t a fresh item, so it isn’t newsworthy. But it’s newsworthy to include the sensational accusation that the rescuers were guilty of a war crime? Because they committed a nonviolent infraction to deceive kidnappers? What kind of news judgment is it to include that accusation if it isn’t newsworthy to mention the kidnapping?
That, by the way, was Ken’s whole point. Why was it included at all? It doesn’t matter that it wasn’t a major part of the story. Why was it any part of the story? Your argument was that it was a small, "subdued" item that was somehow newsworthy because of the seriousness of the accusation. Your argument tries to have it both ways. It was a serious charge and therefore important enough to mention, but you want to deflect any objections by claiming it was a minor item.
I hope you won’t leap to any conclusions if I mention one of Rush Limbaugh’s signature lines: With liberals, what matters is the seriousness of the accusation, not the credibility of the evidence. CNN proved that here, and you defended it.
In your first post, you write that Ken posted this story because it had red meat for the NewsBusters herd. But it does have the red meat your audience craves: war crimes! Somebody violating the Geneva Conventions in their battle with terrorism! Surely you understand that Ken didn’t write that. CNN did. The idea that someone would violate the Geneva conventions to fight the war on terror, making themselves war criminals in the process, is what the nutcase liberals have been howling about for quite some time. If anyone was guilty of playing to the crowd, it was clearly CNN. This isn’t Ken tossing out red meat for conservatives. This was CNN tossing out red meat for liberals.
And for the people who don't take the time to actually read the article, you can see how the presentation here has enhanced their ignorance. Sure, if they only read one article out of context. But that’s exactly what you did to Ken. You made a fuss out of the fact that he gave a headline that included the inflammatory phrase “war crime” that wasn’t in the text of the link. But Ken wasn’t pointing to the link, he was referring to the actual article. You took him out of context.
I find it useful to at least be aware of the ideas being peddled here and elsewhere. I’m so glad you could grace us with your presence.
I think I've done a pretty good job explaining my position. But of course you do.
Please follow the thread
July 17, 2008 - 07:53 ET by blogonatorAnd don't put words in my mouth. You are the one using the word 'herd.' Conventional wisdom, biases and prejudices are everywhere. To deny their presense here is silly.
That isn’t an argument. That’s a conclusion.
When you grab my conclusion and berate me because it isn't my argument, well... I just don't know how that serves to prove your point.
What kind of news judgment is it to include that accusation if it isn’t newsworthy to mention the kidnapping?
I am beginning to question whether you really did read the article. You try to write that story without mentioning the whole thing is predicated upon rescuing people who have been kidnapped. Seriously, what do you want from CNN? Should they spend 90% of the article outlining the evil activities of the FARC? They're a news operation. They're not writing a book on the FARC. Furthermore, they've told that story already.
I think Ken did a fine job speaking for himself. Go back and read my first post and our little back and forth.
It was a serious charge and therefore important enough to mention, but you want to deflect any objections by claiming it was a minor item.
Have you ever picked up a newspaper and noticed how it doesn't end at page A1? Not everything that is news belongs on the front page, but not everything that isn't worthy of page one isn't worthy of mention. That's what all the pages behind A1 are for. The claim being made here that CNN is somehow "fixating on" or "sensationalizing" this story is absurd for the reasons I gave in my previous posts.
With liberals, what matters is the seriousness of the accusation, not the credibility of the evidence. CNN proved that here, and you defended it.
Please scroll up and read the update Ken added to his original post.
This isn’t Ken tossing out red meat for conservatives. This was CNN tossing out red meat for liberals.
That claim would carry a lot more weight if you ignored this paragraph in my previous post:
Conservatives, like most people, like to believe they're right. But, like most people, sometimes they're wrong.
You made a fuss out of the fact that he gave a headline that included the inflammatory phrase “war crime” that wasn’t in the text of the link. But Ken wasn’t pointing to the link, he was referring to the actual article. You took him out of context.
He was pointing to the link. What else was this? Then he gets into the article proper and makes the mistake of assuming the only actors with any stake in what happened were the FARC and the hostages. Then I pointed out, no, the Red Cross has every right to be furious about this, and that there are very good reasons to not have the red cross emblem abused in this manner. Then, blah, blah, blah... Scroll up and read the thread.
I’m so glad you could grace us with your presence.
My sarcasm meter is redlining at that statement.
Reading
July 17, 2008 - 10:28 ET by KC MulvilleAsking to "read the thread" is not an argument. It's a rhetorical maneuver in which you say the equivalent of: "You're disagreeing with me, therefore you must have misunderstood me."
I understood your argument. I just disagree with it.
You conveniently skip over the core of my last post, which is the question: Why was this included at all? You claim that it's a sidebar to the main story, a minor issue to be mentioned but not focused on. And if CNN had constrained themselves to simply saying, by the way, the rescuers exploited the Red Cross emblem and the Red Cross is upset about it ... you'd have a fair point. But Ken's point, and now mine, is that CNN didn't limit themselves to that simple story. Instead, they called it "war crime." Ken's point, very clearly, is that using the phrase "war crime" is sensationalizing. "War crime" is an inflammatory and loaded phrase. For your argument to make sense, you have to hold that a "war crime" can be just a minor sidebar issue.
It must be obvious that there are two trails to this discussion. The first trail focuses on the details of the issue. But the second trail is concerned with your perception of the NewsBusters audience, and your own belief about what you're contributing to it. You insinuate that everyone here is unable to think for themselves, and that's why I use the term "herd." I know you didn't use that word, but it precisely captures the idea that you think the audience here cannot think for themselves.
You see your contribution, then, as a breath of fresh truth. It isn't. It's insulting instead of informing this audience. That's just hubris.
Why this was included at all...
July 17, 2008 - 11:53 ET by blogonatorIt's news. They're calling a spade a spade. What terms would you prefer to "war crime?" "Violation of the Geneva Conventions?" Really, this sounds all very politically correct to me.
More to your point, it is a sidebar issue here. Now if the FARC downs the next Red Cross chopper it sees flying overhead, then we've moving this particular sidebar issue into the main story category. This is why you need to read past the headlines on NB. If all you read was the NB headline, you'd think that's all the article had to say, but this was an 1,800 word article where the term "war crime" was included exactly three times. Not in the headline. Not in the link. Not in the tags. Again I say the only people sensationalizing and fixating on this story are NB and ideologically similar people. Not CNN. Lots and lots of smoke here... no fire.
As to your bullets, if I thought you were right, if I thought your claims were valid, I'd tell you. If I think bad ideas are being peddled, I'll say that. If I think someone is unable to think for himself, I'll say that too. If I don't say that, then it's you just insinuating and generalizing. In the end this isn't about me. If you want to move onto personal attacks, you'll be going there alone. It would be better if you stuck to the content of my arguments.
Blog, after a careful
July 17, 2008 - 12:01 ET by bassndudeBlog, after a careful review of the Geneva Convention, including Protocol II, I find no violation of the Geneva Convention in this act. Had the Columbians initiated a raid, and killed members of FARC, attempted to capture or otherwise hurt or harm FARC members, that would have constituted a violation. However, in their actions, they did not violate the the conventions, nor the Protocols and in reality, fulfilled a function of the Red Cross mission.
I failed to find where Geneva was violated.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Not buying it
July 17, 2008 - 13:19 ET by KC MulvilleThe infraction itself was a sidebar. "War crime" is sensationalizing it. Again, the phrase "war crime" is inflammatory, not merely descriptive, whether it's used once, twice, or many times. And besides, no one is fixating on it. Ken gave it a post, that's all. You didn't see him bewailing the end of world -- it was a single post. You objected to Ken mentioning it. I disagreed with your objection. Big deal. I'm sure you and I are the only ones caring about it at this point, and I care only barely.
The only reason I'm continuing is that you inserted a number of condescending and insulting comments into your discussion.
When I objected to those comments, you treated my objections as "personal attacks," and warned that I should stick to the arguments. You insulted the people here, but then warned that no one should personally attack you. I can only assume that you're unaware of the condescension in your comments.
Ah well. I forgive you.
I direct your attention
July 16, 2008 - 12:50 ET by BDI direct your attention once again to the principle of justifiable repriasal.
Impeach the Columbian President
July 16, 2008 - 10:39 ET by garyganuI is a good thing that George W. Bush and the US marines didn't recue those hostages, other wise they would be blamed for violating international law. The liberals would have called for the Marines to be arrested and prosecuted and also called for the impeachment of Bush. After all, using a Red Cross insignia to fool the enemy puts all of our legitimately wounded troops in danger.
Doesn't that argument sound silly? Well, that is the exact same argument that the left uses against water-boarding terrorists with critical information. I don't know how people can take them seriously.
I wonder how McCain feels about this issue?
Well now
July 16, 2008 - 10:39 ET by americaneagleIf the Red Cross wants to complain about the "misuse" of their logo in this operation, then I can understand that, but where does it violate the Geneva Conventions? As I understand it, the GC is in place to set up "rules of war" between warring nation/states, not to put constraints on the hands of governments fighting terrorist insurgencies bent on overthrowing lawfully elected governments. Since FARC wasn't a nation/state the last time I looked, I kinda don't think the GC was meant to protect them. Besides, isn't holding prisoners for ransom outside of the spirit if the GC?
CNN is an ongoing, 24/7 War Crime itself
July 16, 2008 - 10:56 ET by SickofLibsGood thing it wasn't a CNN field crew being held; CNN would be negotiating to return them to captivity, right?
Like the liberal judges setting confessed criminals free on a technicality to commit more crimes; we are merely animals if we don't follow the rule of law.
What no one has asked and I
July 16, 2008 - 11:19 ET by Ron was RIGHTWhat no one has asked and I am surprised: Up until the point that the ruse was revealed, the terrorist thought that he was going to move the hostages on a red cross helicopter. He was perfectly comfortable with this. Does the international red cross move hostages for terrorists? If so then that is obviously a huge problem. If the terrorist thought that it was a red cross helicopter stolen by FARC or a helicopter owned by FARC but disguised as a red cross copter then no GC was violated by Colombia because the terrorist didn't believe that the copter was neutral.
The International Red Cross is a leftist organization
July 16, 2008 - 11:58 ET by jefflebowskiIn fact, I read somewhere last week that the hostages told of direct cooperation of the Red Cross aiding the FARC.
Liberals care more about protecting murderous thugs by twisting our laws than doing the right thing. It is not the govenrnment of Colombia's fault. They weren't the ones who kidnapped and tortured thousands of people. It is the evil FARC and they must be exterminated!!!
I lived in Colombia and visited 4 times last year. My wife is Colombian. I was there for one of the Colombians worldwide marches against the FARC. The Colombian people dispise the FARC and love their President Uribe...who is a great leader!
People like the lib poster in this thread who ask about the use of the Red Cross flag make me want to puke! You should be ashamed of yourself! What if one of the hostages was a member of your family? Would you want them still in the jungle enduring torture??
Why is Uribe enjoying 80+% popularity in Colombia? Because he is strong and unbending and is killing FARC guerillas. Our "leaders" could learn much from him!!!
Also, it is COLOMBIA, not COLUMBIA.
Jeff Lebowski
www.angrywhitedude.c...
BINGO, JEFF...
July 16, 2008 - 15:53 ET by danybhoyThis is a part of the story that will go unmentioned. The Red Cross, & almost ALL NGOs(non governmental organizations) are left of center by their very nature. That is probably why the FARC trusted what they were doing. I also noticed a few years ago when the terrorists in the Palistinian territories used ambulences to sneak terrorsts in & out of the Gaza Strip. I think the Red Cresent was used for that, but I'm not 100% sure. Not much outrage by CNN or the rest of the MSM either, bias anyone?
1 thing the MSM does'nt tell us when reporting on this conflict is that the FARC are a MARXIST NARCO TERROR REVOLUTIONARY REBEL ORGANIZATION. For the dim that means the FARC are trying to overthrow the popularly elected gov't of Colombia with the use of terrorism against the civilian population, financed by drug trafficking & by foriegn marxists like Hugo Chavez.
Just another thing about Colombia fight...
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=289786626246641
...I have post this before, & there are more questions because there are reports that the names of several Dems in Congress have been conected to the story because of the data that was pulled from the laptops of Raul Reyes, who was FARC's #2 guy when Colombian special forces killed him in a cross border raid into Equador. Names like Nancy "Stretch" Pelosi-D/CA, Nadia Velezquez-D/NY, Edwin Markie-D/MA, Melvin Watt-D/CA, Linda Sanchez-D/CA, Robert Menendez-D/NJ, Bernie Sanders-I/VT, & Jim McGovern-D/MA have all been reported to be connected to this story, because their names were on the Reyes laptop. The FARC leadership are betting on dealing with an Obama administration because Bush has supported current Colombian gov't & President Uribe. Remember this when you watch the Colombian Free Trade debate, this is why the traitor(in my opinion) Nancy Pelosi has busted her butt to kill that deal.
Don't think the "progressives" have not noticed...
http://mediamatters.org/items200807030009
...their posters are pissed about this story. I love reading their site BTW, it is amazing you can wake up that pissed off everyday. I'm assuming bands like Rage Agaist The Machine & System of A Down are in their I-Pods as well, pure leftist political anger set to music.
This story really needs further investigation & I am hoping that it gets the coverage it should by more powerfull media outlets.
"...it's still We The People, Right?" Megadeth
Rescue
July 16, 2008 - 12:07 ET by cassratExcuse Me! When did FARC sign the Geneva Accords. Since they nor the Columbian government (as far as I know) signed the documents, they are not required to follow them. DUH!!!
Ask the Islamo goons who are beheading hostages and the Hammas terrorist who just returned the bodies of captured Israelie soldiers about the Geneva Convention.
Never try to teach a Liberal. It wastes your time and annoys the Liberal
Colombia signed Geneva in
July 16, 2008 - 12:18 ET by Ken ShepherdColombia signed Geneva in 1949, I believe the article mentioned that.
FARC is a terrorist insurgency, it claims to be a rebel faction fighting a civil war, but that's a thinly-veiled excuse for its narco-terrorism. Hole up in the jungle and traffick in narcotics, kidnap civilians, make demands of the legitimate government, spew left-wing political garbage. That's basically the M.O. of the operation.
Hugo seems to be partial to
July 16, 2008 - 12:24 ET by bassndudeHugo seems to be partial to FARC...he sends them money.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
The concern is that the Red Cross become a target
July 16, 2008 - 12:49 ET by DaMavIf their ID is being used for operational subterfuge they will become a justifiable target of all sides. Not that it isn't already being used by terrorist groups, and not that the media isn't trying to blow this specific case out of proportion. The fact remains that if it becomes acceptable to send military agents disguised as the Red Cross into combat situations the terrorist can argue that it is reasonable to shoot anyone with a Red Cross symbol.
As if these CNN libtards
July 16, 2008 - 12:07 ET by mattmAs if these CNN libtards give a crap about the law. They only care about their pro-commie agenda. Law, schmaw.
Isn't it ironic?
July 16, 2008 - 12:13 ET by CobraManIsn't it ironic that CNN would choose to question if the Colombian government violated the Geneva Conventions through the use of the Red Cross symbol when FARC violated the Geneva Conventions when it never allowed the Red Cross to visit the "prisoners of war" they held illegally for years?
Let's get something straight, these people were NOT prisoners of war who captured on a field of battle. They were civilians who were KIDNAPPED and held ILLEGALLY by FARC, which a criminal act and not an act of war, so the Geneva Conventions DOES NOT APPLY to them or any means used to free them. This is just a means of giving legitimacy to a criminal organization call FARC and to apply international standards of decency to illegal activities on their part. It’s really sad that CNN doesn’t realize this.
Thanks CobraMan
July 16, 2008 - 13:24 ET by ahusserI was trying to draft a reply that was essentially what you said but you said it much better. CNN is attempting to insert the GC where it does not apply. Is this ignorance on the writer's or editor's part or were they trying to make a lefty point? I recall, (very vividly as a VN vet) that in Viet Nam we always had to make war with the insurgents and the North as if they were under the GC. Yet they were under no constraints whatsoever and made war as they pleased. This state of affairs was always enforced by the lefty press at the time. The communist insurgents could slaughter and torture as they pleased but woe to any U.S. military individual or group that strayed across the line.
Leave it to CNN to find
July 16, 2008 - 12:14 ET by ConservativeRexLeave it to CNN to find any excuse to prop up the communistas. I understand the commandos wore Che Guevara T-shirts not Red Cross emblems. I suppose CNN would next find that Cuba has a grievance with Columbia.
Another tempest in a tea-pot designed in the most despicable manner by CNN. I believe CNN is intentionally lying, and this is nothing more than a propaganda ploy by a known anti-American entity (CNN), in favor of known Western Hemisphere communist who know how to use their propaganda arm in the United States. All one has to do is ask CNN to provide proof. Simple really. Short of that they are lying.
Intentionally lying?
July 16, 2008 - 15:27 ET by Toomhttp://www.tri-cityh...
BOGOTA, Colombia
Colombia's president says a Red Cross symbol was worn by a member of
the military rescue mission that freed 15 hostages from leftist rebels.
President
Alvaro Uribe says his government has apologized to the International
Red Cross for the incident, which he said was not authorized.
A
team of Colombian military intelligence agents posing as members of a
fake international humanitarian group airlifted the hostages to safety
on July 2. Those rescued included French-Colombian politician Ingrid
Betancourt and three U.S. military contractors.
Uribe said in a speech Wednesday that a single member of the rescue
team got nervous and affixed a cloth International Red Cross symbol on
his vest.
Doesn't there have to be a war?
July 16, 2008 - 12:27 ET by iconoclastIsn't it a "war crime" only if there is a declared international war? I'm pretty sure one hasn't been declared, therefore, no crime exists.
It's the same argument the left uses for Iraq. They claim that Iraq prisoners haven't been treated according to the Geneva Convention, which I think applies during wartime, yet on the other hand, they claim the Iraq action isn't a war, so the prisioners should be treated as law violaters. Makes my head swim.
Need to find the dark cloud in the silver lining
July 16, 2008 - 12:58 ET by Kenny BunkportThe media is just irritated and retaliating because, once again, the appeasement and negotiation approach was trumped by decisive action.
Every time you prove a liberal policy wrong, the media will stay up all night looking for a downside. Then they'll fixate on that and blow it out of proportion. [Think Abu Graib here]
A gun in your hand beats a cop on the phone.
We'll keep this in mind the
July 16, 2008 - 13:06 ET by greenfairieWe'll keep this in mind the next time somebody kidnaps a CNN journo and holds him hostage. Oops, can't go rescue him , it's a war crime!
Why risk lives mounting a
July 16, 2008 - 13:19 ET by KarmaWhy risk lives mounting a rescue?
CNN could send Lara Logan to "negotiate" their release.
It is also a war crime to
July 16, 2008 - 13:13 ET by jdhawkIt is also a war crime to pose as a reporter and then gather intelligence as an intelligence operative. Our media would never do that - perish the thought.
Instead, they aide and abet the enemy every day by touting their "side" of the story when it is nothing more than our enemies' propaganda. And, of course, they neither verify nor even get the story themselves, but use stringers with questionable loyalty and background.
Meanwhile, where was the outrage when the PLO faked injury and death to win sympathy and UN censure of the Israelis by using actual International Red Cross personnel while doing it?
How do you commit a war
July 16, 2008 - 13:47 ET by NL207How do you commit a war crime when you are fighting unlawful combatants?
Whiffle ball out of the park
July 16, 2008 - 21:29 ET by UnsaneThat's easy. As the FARC is fighting for peace and social justice, they are free to do anything they want. If they are opposed in any way, shape, fashion or form by a legitimate government or a representative democracy, heaven help them for daring to do that.
Just look at abeautifulthief and blogonator on this thread working overtime to be the chief FARC apologist on NB!
"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." - from the Bhagavad Gita, quoted by J. Robert Oppenheimer at 0530 MST on 16 July 1945
Farc is a criminal organization.
July 16, 2008 - 13:51 ET by IamTinmanThey commited a criminal act and the military were conducting a police action. In this country and around the world, police commonly use disguised vehicles and false uniforms to conduct raids and apprehensions.
It's both legal and ethical especially if the desired result is saving lives. Mark Ellis is one example of why people hate lawyers!
can liberals really be this ignorant?
July 16, 2008 - 13:59 ET by wizardjrI see it over and over again. Inflating a few thousand deaths into a million. Calling the Iraq operation illegal. Hauling out the Geneva Convention time after time where it does not, nor was it ever meant, to apply. Have any of these dipsticks ever read the damn thing? How about the Cliff Notes version at least?
According to this buttwad's logic all police officers must now stop sting operations. I mean, if disguising as someone you're not is a war crime when dealing with criminal narco terrorists and kidnappers, then obviously all our cops are now criminals - so STOP COP! </sarc>
As to the Red Cross/Crescent. They lost all legitimacy decades ago. Go ahead and make them targets. Many of them deserve it.
Fictional News Flash
July 16, 2008 - 14:25 ET by AmericanEnergist"Terrorists Strap IED to Mule and Kill 2, Injure 100. PETA Outraged!!"
www.ArmchairEnergist...
What War???
July 16, 2008 - 16:14 ET by richb313The Geneva Convention does not apply to internal conflicts, especially with organizations that have a criminal enterprise as thier major source of funding. The use of the Red Cross was outlawed by the Geneva Convention so that COMBAT TROOPS could not hide under its protection.
The major idiocy of this entire premise is that a War Crime was possible at all. WHAT WAR!!! There is no war in Colombia. There is definitely a problem with drug cartels and the FARC which has close ties to the cartels. FARC does not even come close to a Government which is required in order to be covered by the Geneva Convention.
It does not matter how the Colombian authorities represented them selves. The Geneva Convention does not apply to internal conflicts anyway. This just goes to show the lengths that the left will go to to undermine any thing that they did not think of themselves.
→ It is questionable
July 16, 2008 - 16:23 ET by Cool ArrowDonning the traditional garb of an established charity insitution for purposes of deceiving an enemy is wrong. It puts future efforts of that charity at increased risk.
The Red Cross has a reasonable expectation their neutrality will be honored by all sides of a conflict.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
what "enemy"?
July 16, 2008 - 17:38 ET by wizardjrthese are criminals, there is no "enemy"
you talk about "neutrality", that's truly a political term that does not apply to criminals or the police that go after them
stop trying to conflate war with criminality
→ war vs criminality?
July 16, 2008 - 17:55 ET by Cool ArrowDid I say "war", or did you insert your assumptions into my post?
Can I conclude from your post that violent criminals are not your enemy? Pedophiles?
Can I further conclude since they are not your enemy, you sort of have a "live and let live" attitude towards them?
Taking such license would be, indeed, scurrilous. But you're welcome to express such opinion if you wish.
OK, let's just see how depraved you really are. Suppose violent captors are holding hostages and one of them is near death. The captors allow for a priest to enter to administer last rights and hear the man's deathbed confession.
You send in a lone commando dressed as Friar Tuck?
I'm thinking at least one institution might have a problem with the hijacking of that which they hold most sacred.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Cool....
July 16, 2008 - 21:20 ET by Clear thinkerTry explaining that to the Palestinians.
45 Communist Goals for America http://www.nationmakers.com/com_goals.htm
→ I see your pont Clear
July 16, 2008 - 21:50 ET by Cool ArrowI'm back online after a transformer exploded in the hood.
I remember well the use of UN and Red Cross Vehicles in Palestinian attacks on Israelis. I think Michell Malkin reported it a couple of years ago.
Opinions can differ as to whether it's ok to use the disguise of an avowedly neutral cause to engage in armed confrontation, but I would expect the same understading the next time a group of missionaries is slaughtered of captured.
The Red Cross I've dealt with are locals. Should be suspicious of them?
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Only if they are
July 16, 2008 - 22:04 ET by Clear thinkerOnly if they are liberals!
45 Communist Goals for America http://www.nationmakers.com/com_goals.htm
One thing for sure, cnn is
July 16, 2008 - 21:14 ET by general companyOne thing for sure, cnn is disappointed that the hostages were released. Must be because the story is done, and they have to move on. Who knows, maybe they were paying farc for stories also.
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
FARC
July 16, 2008 - 22:03 ET by easygoerHark 'em, park 'em and FARC 'em!
Cool, what if the Red Cross
July 16, 2008 - 22:24 ET by jefflebowskiis assisting the FARC as the allegations have been made? Why would the FARC just hand over their most prized hostages if they thought that the Red Cross could or would hand them over to the government.
The Int'l Red Cross is a very liberal organization.
Jeff Lebowski
www.angrywhitedude.c...
→ Good question Jeff
July 16, 2008 - 23:05 ET by Cool ArrowDo we have sufficient evidence to link FARC and the Red Cross?
I can't bring myself to embrace this hypothetical simply for purposes of justifying a happy ending.
I've made no such public commitment that I would refrain from chopping off someone's appendages to secure the release of my family from terrorists. The Red Cross has.
Cool,
July 16, 2008 - 23:15 ET by RESTLESS 1Good point. The ends don't always justify the means. We as should conservatives should know that as well or better than anyone.
Edit: That being said, the Americans that were freed spent some time here at BAMC. It was heartwarming to see them reunited with their families. I believe one of them met his child for the first time, so I am glad they are home.
"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
→ No argument there
July 16, 2008 - 23:38 ET by Cool ArrowThat interview where they were talking about comforting each other during their cativity brought tears to me.
I don't know how I'd handle having 5 years taken away from me like that.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
I doubt I would handle it
July 16, 2008 - 23:43 ET by RESTLESS 1I doubt I would handle it as gracefully as they have.
"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
Cool, Red Cross and FARC
July 16, 2008 - 23:17 ET by jefflebowskiCool, I read something last week I believe was from one of the american hostages released that said that the IRC had given a great deal of support to the FARC. I think more will come out.
To me, the end does justify the means getting the hostages back from those brutal narco-terrorists. I hope President Uribe continues to kill them all.
Jeff Lebowski
www.angrywhitedude.c...
I did too Jeff...believe it
July 16, 2008 - 23:32 ET by bigtimerI did too Jeff...believe it or not I got rid of the link a couple of days ago...
I had it saved for here, but so much was already said by me and others with other links/posts.... I never used or saved it.
I may look tomorrow if I have time...
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
→ Any Chance
July 16, 2008 - 23:50 ET by Cool ArrowIs there any chance the Red Cross colluded with the Colombian Government and has no choice but look like the offended party?
Is the Red Cross complaining? That would be interesting.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
If a Colombian soldier wore
July 17, 2008 - 12:13 ET by Roger the ShrubberIf a Colombian soldier wore a Red Cross emblem while rescuing those hostages, what is Colombia supposed to do?
Should reperations be made to FARC for freeing the people KIDNAPPED?
Could FARC go the International Court of Justice in The Hague and sue Colombia? Perhaps go to civil court in, say, the 9th district?
Should the hostages be returned?
Reading the back-and-forth about the poor FARC rebels being stupid enough to lose their hostages is making me chuckle.
All this outrage by the Left! None to spare, I guess, for all those ambulances used by the PLO and Hamas to fight the hated Jooos, or for shooting at Joooo ambulances. No outrage left for Al-Qaeda attacking our troops from mosques.
It's all because Colombia is an ally of Bush.
Remember, being a Liberal means standing on your head and telling the world it's upside-down.
The bad guys have been wronged! This must be rectified!
Rog, I checked. First, FARC
July 17, 2008 - 12:19 ET by bassndudeRog, I checked. First, FARC in not a signitory of Geneva, nor have they ratified the Geneva Convention Protocols.
Second, if it was a soldier, and not a Red Cross worker that wore the symbol, they did not violate the mission of the Red Cross. There was no killing, capturing or harming of FARC members. In fact, they kept well within the operating mission of the Red Cross.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Thankfully, no FARC members
July 17, 2008 - 13:23 ET by Roger the ShrubberThankfully, no FARC members were forced to wear underwear on their heads.
That is a War Crime,
July 17, 2008 - 13:32 ET by Jack BauerThat is a War Crime, rightly punishable by death.
So yes, that is a blessing!
Jack, Sub section 4/viii,
July 17, 2008 - 13:35 ET by bassndudeJack, Sub section 4/viii, only applys to women panties worn on the head/face area and only applys to unwashed panties. The section your looking for is Sub section 4/viiii.
It is a common mistake.:-)
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
bass -- I'd bow to your
July 17, 2008 - 13:46 ET by Jack Bauerbass -- I'd bow to your superior knowledge of legal briefs pertaining to International Panty Law, but that sound kinda pervy. And possibly kinky.
July 17, 2008 - 13:50 ET by bassndudebass -- sorry, you were
July 17, 2008 - 13:51 ET by Jack Bauerbass -- sorry, you were slightly off-brief here. It's subsection IX and not VIIII.
Damn those tricky latins, and all praise the Persians and their numerals.
Well Darn Jack! My memory
July 17, 2008 - 13:55 ET by bassndudeWell Darn Jack! My memory must be going.
What were we talking about?
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Well, Jack...we used to use
July 17, 2008 - 13:49 ET by bassndudeWell, Jack...we used to use "used unwashed" panties on our prisnors to get information...seems when you take the unwashed and replace them with washed, the guys would tell you what ever you wanted to know. As long as they got their unwashed panties back for the torture sessions. Seems they are habit forming...:-)
Either that, or we had a very perverted crew of POW's.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
You said "legal briefs"! Har
July 17, 2008 - 13:52 ET by Roger the ShrubberYou said "legal briefs"! Har har har har
thank you for noticing
July 17, 2008 - 13:55 ET by Jack Bauerthank you for noticing shrubbhead! I know... terrible, old gag.
Hey, watreboard me! But no panties.
How about a thong? I
July 17, 2008 - 13:56 ET by bassndudeHow about a thong? I understand they get into the tight places.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
I guess, for all those
July 17, 2008 - 12:26 ET by Jack BauerAhhh, I was trying to remember where I'd heard something similar. Thanks fo0r the h/t shrubbo.
I get back to a point made on the day by commendtators How come the terrorists felt so comfortable in allowing the Red Cross to trasport the hostages to another FARC camp?