What's your nomination for today's Dumb Headline of the Day?
Here's mine, from the August 27 blog entry by Chicago Tribune religion reporter/blogger Manya Brachear. The topic was Mother Teresa's diary and how some entries revealed a fear of being distant from Jesus:
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I agree - dumb headline
August 27, 2007 - 15:24 ET by whatajoyI agree with you. Mother Theresa was a human being. All human beings are sinners with doubts, fears, worries and lies being fed to them by satan. So it's very normal for anyone, a saint, a preacher, a nun, a cashier at McDonalds, anyone to have doubts. Satan knows how to push our buttons and fear things that God is controlling for us, and it's in our nature to sometimes forget that God is there for us and to put satan in his place.
Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven!
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Take it easy! We're not making a western here.
~ Uncle Junior (The Sopranos)
Been my experience that the
August 27, 2007 - 15:35 ET by bassndudeBeen my experience that the closer you get to God, the harder satan works aginst you. So I would assume that saints, do indeed have the worst days.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
All Saints
August 28, 2007 - 12:08 ET by cvgbuckeyeWhen the Bible refers to saints, it is referring to ALL CHRISTIANS. I know of nowhere in either Testament that refers to the making of saints after anyone's death OR anyone being VOTED into sainthood by any human beings.
If anyone can show me where that is found in the Bible, I would be glad to hear from them.
I'm waiting.
Canonization
August 28, 2007 - 12:16 ET by NBFCanonization is not "voting" someone into heaven. It is merely a recognition that someone is in heaven. People in the Bible recognized that certain historical people were God's friends. Miraculous events (such as the Transfiguration in the Bible) attest to that belief as authentic.
Did'nt say that
August 28, 2007 - 12:30 ET by cvgbuckeyeNBF; Didn't say "voted into Heaven", said voted into sainthood. Please show me sir, in the Bible, where it describes the process by which men will vote men into sainthood. As far as the Transfiguration goes, that was up to God as Jesus met with them. Man had nothing to do with it.
One of the problems with the Pharisees was that they developed all types and kinds of practices, and policies and LAWS that were described nowhere in the Scriptures and then ordained that all Jews and everyone else for that matter, must conform to them or suffer eternal punishment on top of earthly.
As I read the Bible, it tells me to follow IT and nothing else. I am instructed to take nothing away NOR ADD ANYTHING TO IT.
One would also have to believe in the tooth fairy to ascribe to some of the things that mortal men have added to the scriptures today. I need nothing but the infallible Word of God to guide me and make no allowances for man made creeds.
Different traditions
August 28, 2007 - 13:02 ET by KC MulvilleYou come from a different tradition, which I respect but don’t follow. I’m a Catholic, and we believe that the New Testament isn’t the exclusive source of faith. The New Testament wasn’t written until a generation after Jesus’ death, and the church itself was already hard at work. We believe that the church and scripture are both legitimate authorities on faith. One cannot be understood without the other, nor can they exclude the other. If a particular belief was present in the early church, but isn’t mentioned in the New Testament, that doesn’t bother us.
If you don’t believe that the church has equal authority than the scriptures, well, you follow a different tradition. It’s a great country, isn’t it?
Once again.
August 28, 2007 - 13:18 ET by NBFCatholics don't "vote" anyone into sainthood (in the sense of the recognition that someone is in heaven). Do you really think a ballot is sent out? :) In addition to a life of heroic virtue, miraculous confirmation (as in the Transfiguration) is needed.
As far as practices not in the Bible, the practice of "Going by the Bible Alone" is found nowhere in the Bible, is *condemned* by the Bible, and was invented just a few centuries ago.
1 Cor 11:2 - hold fast to traditions I handed on to you
2 Thess 2:15 - hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter
2 Thess 3:6 - shun those acting not according to tradition
Jn 21:25 - not everything Jesus said recorded in Scripture
Mk 13:31 - heaven & earth shall pass away, but my word won't
Acts 20;35 - Paul records a saying of Jesus not found in gospels
2Tim 1:13 - follow my sound words; guard the truth
2Tim2:2 - what you heard entrust to faithful men
2Pet 1:20 - no prophecy is a matter of private interpretation
2Pet 3:15-16 - Paul's letters can be difficult to grasp & interpret
1Tim 3:15 - Church is the pillar and foundation of truth
Mt 18:17 - tell it to the Church; if he refuses to listen even to the church treat him as a heathen and a publican (he doesn't get to start his own church).
Here are 21 reasons to reject the Protestant-era doctrine of Sola Scriptura:
http://www.geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/solascriptura21.html
Well, since you opened up
August 28, 2007 - 16:42 ET by tracheostomyWell, since you opened up the can. . .
http://newsbusters.org/forums/woodshed/taking-nbf-woodshed-15228
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
The Canon of Saints
August 28, 2007 - 12:47 ET by KC MulvilleOriginally, saints were the faithful. But living people can fall in or out of faithfulness. The early church quickly adopted the title of ‘saint’ for someone who remained faithful even unto death. Soon, the church used ‘saints’ to refer to those people who were heroically faithful, and that’s the sense we use it today. In the Catholic church, we canonize saints. Canonize literally means we include them in the canon of saints. A canon is a list, and the canon of saints is simply a list of people who we think are especially heroic.
We don’t control who gets into heaven. That’s between you and God. All we control is the list of people we consider role models and heroes.
The article isn't much better than the headline
August 27, 2007 - 15:38 ET by KC Mulville"Or perhaps the letters show that it does not take God to inspire good deeds but simply compassion for our fellow human beings." So, when Mother Teresa wrote about the agony of her spiritual life, and the sense of abandonment she felt herself while working among the abandoned poor ... what occurred to Brachear is that God might be optional?
Her questions for the day include: "Should it block her path to sainthood?" Block her path ... sheesh ...
Saints are, perhaps, one of
August 27, 2007 - 15:56 ET by drillanwrSaints are, perhaps, one of the most misunderstood elements of the Catholic religion. Saints are NOT such while here on Earth.
They are NOT ethereal beings mingling among us sinners in this world through the ages. They were/are completely human. Many, if not all, lived lives of sin, torment and strife and doubt, even crime. It was through such trial and tribulation that they somehow overcame their own pains and losses and short-comings to selflessly effect the lives in a more positive manner for others even more wretched than themselves. I am actually pleased (if I may insert that word) and relieved to hear of these writings of Mother Teresa. It proves to me the total humanity of her faith, and her disdain for her own failings as reflected in the works she provided. This made her even more Christ-like than anything completely joyfully faith-filled that she could have written, as we know Jesus Himself had moments of doubts and dread at the most trying times near the end of His life. Mother Teresa saw man's selfishness and self-righteousness, and perhaps recognized it within herself, no matter how hard she tried to rid herself of them. The fact that she even had these dark moments of doubt tore at her soul as selfishness and self-centeredness. Her expectations and hopes for man were horribly disappointed by the feeble cultures that kept people in the dirt, out of sight and out of mind, and such selfish abominations to life itself as in abortion.
``Abortion has become the greatest destroyer of peace. If we really want peace, if we're sincere in our hearts that we really want peace, we should make a strong resolution that we will not allow a single child to feel unwanted, to feel unloved.''
P.S.
August 27, 2007 - 16:25 ET by drillanwrAnd a reminder ... Many Saints died horrible, tortured deaths. Since grade school my personal Saint has been Joan Of Arc. In my adult years I have come to realize that with her fiery death France's "balls" were burned at the stake too, and they have since been cursed for abandoning her.
St. Crabbypants
August 28, 2007 - 13:08 ET by TruthMongerthat film with val kilmer - the saint:) good one
all of his identities were named after saints - they all had some kinda major flaw
one saint had some kind of great quote - "give me purity, give me chastity - but do not give it yet"
Something like that...
I feel that what she
August 27, 2007 - 16:57 ET by MidAmericaI feel that what she experienced was completely normal. Our minds do not like repressed or denied thoughts.
Anybody who has gone on a diet knows the power of the mind to make us think what we wish to deny. It's the same with a conscious decision to obey only what we know as good. Every ill thought you posess will come to haunt you. This is why so many religious leaders have been found to have a secret sinful life. They could no longer resist their personal demons that they had given strength to by trying to deny their existence.
This is the reason we pray for strength. We pray to a higher power to help us past these struggles. (or if dieting maybe go to a Weight Watchers meeting)
Most people just muddle around and are good sometimes and not so good sometimes thereby balancing the account. As the saying goes, we go to Church on Sunday to ask forgiveness for what we did on Saturday night.
Now for you atheists out there this is not religion. This is psychology. Even if Jesus was not God he was at least pointing the direction to a higher human potential.
The Godless live in a world of trees, rocks and critters. However none of these things exist without the human mind. The refinement of the human mind(spirit) beyond it's present state is the goal of all true seekers who have a 'call' in their heart for something they cannot explain.
Definitions
August 27, 2007 - 17:00 ET by mattmThe word "saint" simply means any believer in Christ. Paul addressed most of his letters "to the saints..."
The Catholic Church expanded on the biblical definition to apply special status to various "worthy" individuals who would become "Saints" to be prayed to and to ask for protection from, etc. This is an extra-biblical use of the term.
Either way, since the saints were warned that they would be the object of persecution, they should expect a bad day here and there, but never fear, it's only temporary...
“So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.” - Heb 13:6
From the Bible...
August 27, 2007 - 19:15 ET by NBFCatholics do not deny that different senses of "saints" or "holy ones" can be used. If you're in heaven, you're holy and can intercede for others:
This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Since the holy ones in heaven do not yet have their physical bodies, the only way they can "hold" bowls of the prayers of those on earth is mentally.
Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah's prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 - angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 - those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God
Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah & Moses
Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events
Rev 6:9-11 - martyrs under altar want earthly vindication
Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Lk 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Rev 20:4 - saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
Wis 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
2Macc 15:7-16 - the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews
Jas 5:16 prayers of righteous man
1 Cor. 13:12 - I shall understand fully
1 John 4: 20-21 - whoever loves God must love his brother
1 Cor 12:21 - parts of Christ's Body cannot say to other parts, "I do not need you".
NBF -
August 27, 2007 - 19:17 ET by drillanwrI agree with your explaination of "saints" in the Catholic religion. As a child I was mesmerized by stories of their lives and deaths. As a lifelong Catholic may I observe, seeing your explaination in text ... it almost seems as if saints are some form of celestial lawyers or lobbyists (LOL!!)
Wow, NBF! That is one of
August 27, 2007 - 22:48 ET by tracheostomyWow, NBF! That is one of the most brilliantly skewed uses of the Bible that I have ever seen here on NB to date.
To the less Biblically literate, this post is incredibly misleading if taken at face value. Nevermind the fact that most of those citations were requested by people who were still alive at the time the verse in question was written.
A few are only specific to the RCC's canon, and fail to cover Christianity as a whole.
The rest are all partial connections; either dealing with the dead, or the living, but not the connection between the dead and the living.
You got no case here, except with your example taking place on the mount of transfiguration. But that account needs to be read more fully. Jesus doesn't want us to build little tabernacles for Moses, Elijah, or any other dead prophet or apostle. Christ alone is to be venerated and held in reverence.
If you want to chase this further, go ahead and start a thread in the off-topic forum. I'll check in from time to time. Otherwise, I won't take it any further here.
I'll be waiting.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Nothing misleading at all. Read the context
August 28, 2007 - 11:41 ET by NBFI showed examples of people on earth praying for one another to show that intercession in general is good and indeed exhorted in the Bible.
Then, I showed from Rev 5:8 that those in heaven offer up prayers of those on earth, and, in conjunction with the Transfiguration and other verses, that those in heaven are aware of earthly events. In fact Moses & Elijah are aware of FUTURE earthly events (see Luke).
Once you get these two principles, you have it all. We don't stop loving one another once we are perfected in heaven. God sometimes waits to bestow blessings until we pray for one another. He does this to build up charity among members of the body of Christ.
Praying for one another and honoring one another does not mean we mistake each other for God.
...
August 28, 2007 - 12:50 ET by mattmExcept that in the context of Revelation, John - who was alive was seeing a vision of the future - the "Prayers of the saints" are the prayers of all believers throughout the history of the Church, made directly to God! The Apostles mentioned in that passage are NOT mediators, merely co-worshippers of the Lord.
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1Ti 2:5
Let's look at context.
August 28, 2007 - 14:54 ET by NBFYou are wrong about Revelation, as we can see from other passages that there are still people on earth (in fact the very perpetrators):
Rev 6: "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that ***DWELL ON EARTH***?"
Next, let's look at the rest of the context of the verse you cited, shall we?:
1 Tim 2: "I desire therefore, first of all, that ****supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour***, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:"
So, contrary to what you were asserting, we have mini-mediators, who act in a subordinate manner to Christ, but do not replace his role as the only Man-God who died for us.
Just as God is the only Creator, but he involves us in the creation of new souls in a subordinate sense. After all, I've never met a Christian who isn't willing to mediate for someone by way of prayer, have you? And nobody thinks that asking someone to pray for you is mistaking that person for God.
As stated before, you are
August 28, 2007 - 15:04 ET by tracheostomyAs stated before, you are welcome to take this to the OT forum anytime.
I showed examples of people on earth praying for one another to show that intercession in general is good and indeed exhorted in the Bible.
Here in this one statement alone you have (a.) people praying for one another, and then (b.) "intercession in general is good and indeed exhorted in the Bible."
In this case, "B" does not connect to "A" in that no one in the Bible ever prayed to the dead, or those in eternal life. The closest example I can think of is the OT account of Saul and Samuel, but he used a pagan methods and was rebuked for doing so in any case.
Then, I showed from Rev 5:8 that those in heaven offer up prayers of those on earth. . .
And then stretching it to mean that it means that this works both ways and to other "targets" of prayer other than God only. I get it. This is an old tactic. Just because the body prays for one another, doesn't mean we can pray to one another.
There's only one complaint department. Do you propose that the Father cannot be reached directly? Have you not read Heb 4:16?
and, in conjunction with the Transfiguration and other verses, that those in heaven are aware of earthly events. In fact Moses & Elijah are aware of FUTURE earthly events (see Luke).
Aware? Yes, of course.
Does this mean they therefore have license to act as "intercessors"? Absolutely not. See 1 Timothy 2:5.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
I don't understand your trouble.
August 28, 2007 - 15:28 ET by NBFI will not hide my defense in some off-topic forum.
Your objections to intercession in contrast to praying to "God alone" rings hollow, as you know well that all Christians pray for one another without someone reprimanding them to pray to "God alone".
We do have licence to act as intercessor, as the quote you made PROVES! See my FULL CONTEXT exposition of that very 1 Tim 2 quote above. I won't re-hash it.
So far you'd seem to agree that (if pressed):
1.The saints in heaven intercede for those on earth.
2. It is good and pleasing to God to pray for one another, to intercede for one another.
3. The saints in heaven are aware of earthly events.
4. Jesus committed no sin communicating with Moses & Elijah.
Taken together, what specifically do you find problematic about asking for what is possible (see 1 & 3) and pleasing to God (see 2).
Uh oh
August 28, 2007 - 15:39 ET by RJDid Tumbler and Debra sneak back in?
No
August 28, 2007 - 15:46 ET by NBFI'm new, and I know neither Tumbler nor Debra.
I sincerely don't want the thread to go off topic, but I'm torn as I'm not just going sit back while off-topic accusations go unanswered simply because they are off-topic. Those original accusations could have been made in a different forum. I at least hope my answers were concise and, as much as possible, shed more light than heat.
Sorry, you comments are
August 28, 2007 - 19:56 ET by tracheostomySorry, your comments are causing more confusion. And both of us can't be right. So then we must be appealing to different authority.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
NBF, it was a joke,
August 28, 2007 - 18:58 ET by RJbased on the intense religious arguments two posters named Tumbler and Debra had... ;^>
I will not hide my defense
August 28, 2007 - 17:19 ET by tracheostomyI will not hide my defense in some off-topic forum.
It shows up in recent comments either way. Besides, the Mother T thread will get buried eventually and the OT forum is a central hub of it's own.
Your objections to intercession in contrast to praying to "God alone" rings hollow, as you know well that all Christians pray for one another without someone reprimanding them to pray to "God alone".
You failed to comprehend my statement. I agreed that all Christians pray for one another, they do not pray to one another.
There is no need to make supplication for one already in glory. Therefore this becomes a question of who makes the final intercession? Why run to someone here when it's better to run to someone in heaven? And why run to someone in heaven when we are told we should rather run to only One in heaven?
Answer that.
We do have licence to act as intercessor, as the quote you made PROVES! See my FULL CONTEXT exposition of that very 1 Tim 2 quote above. I won't re-hash it.
Okay, let's examine that.
1 Tim 2: "I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:"
These prayers are done "for" others. But who is the recipient of the prayers? If I came up to you personally asking you to pray for me, does this mean that I made a prayer to you to then pray to God for me? Whaaa. . .?
So, contrary to what you were asserting, we have mini-mediators, who act in a subordinate manner to Christ, but do not replace his role as the only Man-God who died for us.
You just added that apart from scripture. PRAYER IS NOT A FOOTBALL. The mini-mediator does not have the ball hiked to them and then makes the pass to Christ. All of this is purely arbitrary, unbiblical, and unnecessary.
After all, I've never met a Christian who isn't willing to mediate for someone by way of prayer, have you?
"I'll pray for you." This doesn't mean that the burden is passed to the one who is better qualified to hear the petition. The message of the single burden is rather multiplied and sent to one mediator and intercessor alone.
So far you'd seem to agree that (if pressed):
1.The saints in heaven intercede for those on earth.
Correct.
2. It is good and pleasing to God to pray for one another, to intercede for one another.
"intercede" 1. To plead on another's behalf. 2. To act as mediator in a dispute.
"And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will." Romans 8:27
So then what is really being done here? Sure, memos are being sent to different departments, but who's getting it done? Who is the final arbiter? Can we agree that it is God? Therefore, why would I waste time asking anyone else to pray for me to begin with? A Roman Catholic reason might be:
(a.) If I thought they had special favor with God, or if I thought they had more merit.
OR
(b.) If I were petitioning a cry of greater numbers; an agreement where two or three are gathered in the name of Christ.
So then I would agree with B, but not A.
3. The saints in heaven are aware of earthly events.
This doesn't give them the ability to hike your ball about. If the prayer goes to heaven in the first place, why bother to run it around a saint. That is, unless you think God isn't listening, or that you can petition one of the departed with special "in club" privileges that you don't as a believer.
4. Jesus committed no sin communicating with Moses & Elijah.
That gives us the authority also? Jesus committed no sin in casting out demons or instituting the new covenant. Can we then do the same?
Taken together, what specifically do you find problematic about asking for what is possible (see 1 & 3) and pleasing to God (see 2).
A problem of twisted semantics to suit an extrabiblical agenda. Namely "saint", "intercede", "prayer" and "venerate".
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Clarification:
August 28, 2007 - 17:27 ET by tracheostomyThe saints in heaven intercede for those on earth.
I know I stated above that I agreed with this, but our collective definition of "saint" is incongruous. So while I do agree with it, it cannot support your thesis, as the bowls and the incense do not point to anyone dead.
The bowls could be a recepticle, just as a hypothetical example. Why would the prayers in Rev 5 be assumed to be absolutely limited to the dead saints only, if not for an incorrect presupposition that all saints are dead?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
No evidence
August 28, 2007 - 12:12 ET by cvgbuckeyemattm:
I am also sure that it is described NOWHERE in the Bible that we can communicate with anyone departed; including any saints who are simply ALL Christians. As a matter of fact we are instructed by the Bible to NOT communicate with the dead.
Accusing Jesus of Sin?
August 28, 2007 - 14:52 ET by NBFMk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
If all communication with the deceased is forbidden, I guess you're asserting that Jesus sinned when he communicated with Elijah & Moses. Ridiculous. Jesus plainly wasn't involved in necromancy, trying to gain future knowledge from demonic sources. Nor is that what happens when Christians ask the saints in heaven to pray for us.
I've already provided ample evidence from the Bible of the saints in heaven interceding for those on earth and that they are aware of earthly events.
If all communication with
August 28, 2007 - 17:38 ET by tracheostomyIf all communication with the deceased is forbidden, I guess you're asserting that Jesus sinned when he communicated with Elijah & Moses. Ridiculous. Jesus plainly wasn't involved in necromancy, trying to gain future knowledge from demonic sources. Nor is that what happens when Christians ask the saints in heaven to pray for us.
Oopsie. The Christian in your example just took the place of the Lord Jesus, who can talk to anyone He wants. Further, Jesus wasn't asking Elijah and Moses for anything. The prophets were present to confirm the deity of Christ and to establish Him as superior to the Law and the prophets which Moses and Elijah represented.
Read on further in the Luke passage. The glory of God Himself then overshadows them all, both living and dead and says. . .what? Listen to Elijah? No, try again. Listen to Moses? No, try again.
The spotlight and attention is on Christ alone.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
MSM reporting of the Crucifiction of Jesus
August 27, 2007 - 23:24 ET by Edward LeeIf our MSM had been around then -
"Jesus was reported to have said, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me' on the cross, leading to controversy about his fitness to be the Savior ... "
Is it really so surprising that Mother Teresa, witness to so much suffering herself, frequently felt the same way? Doubting what one is expected by all to believe without question is a sign of courage, not moral weakness.
Quote
August 28, 2007 - 12:15 ET by cvgbuckeyeEdward: What you will find is that Our Lord on the cross was quoting from Psalm 22. Read it and you will find the quote word for word, as written in anguish by David and quoted by the Son of Man.