Okay, we’ve all heard that hybrid vehicles are better for the environment. But how do they measure up when it comes to the green in your wallet?
Even starlet Paris Hilton has boarded the hybrid bandwagon, as reported by BPM Magazine.
“I came in a hybrid car because I think that’s the way to go – to save energy and to save our earth from all this – you know pollution so I think if everyone just takes the steps to do it will make a difference,” said Hilton.
However, Hilton probably wouldn’t be as concerned about the cost of owning one of these hybrids as average people. But you wouldn’t be aware of any higher costs after reading Chris Woodyard’s August 8 USA Today story.
“It’s not just good public relations,” wrote Woodyard. “Since the Supreme Court ruled earlier this year that the EPA can regulate greenhouse gases, General Motors, Ford Motor and Chrysler have joined the U.S. Climate Action Partnership, a coalition of corporate executives calling for CO2 restrictions.”
It would be even better public relations if hybrids made economic sense, but they don’t. It turns out hybrids cost more to maintain than regular cars.
According to Vicentric, a company that compiles and analyzes data on different automobiles. Over a five year period it is roughly 10 percent more expensive to own the 2007 Honda Civic Hybrid model over a similar non-hybrid model. That includes lower fuel costs and tax incentives of hybrid ownership.
That doesn’t even include the original cost of the vehicle and most people know that hybrids cost more right from the get-go. The version compared by Vicentric had a manufacturer suggested retail price of $22,600. The non-hybrid’s price tag was a much lower $15,810.
—Julia A. Seymour is an assistant editor for the Business & Media Institute.
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Funny you should post
August 8, 2007 - 18:54 ET by Chris NormanFunny you should post this. My "eco-friendly" neighbors just reported that, on their way home from the airport, today, every dashboard light on their one-year old Prius lit up like a pin ball machine. They had it towed to the dealer, who told them that if they had driven it any further, the car would have been completely fried. This is an example why it's always better to be on the trailing edge of new technology.
The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
- Arabian Proverb
The green effects of towing?
August 9, 2007 - 06:21 ET by ThisnThatHad to be towed, eh? With what? Probably a very non-green, gas-powered truck, which had to travel to the car, then travel back to the garage.
Pretty green trip, don't you think? Owner must be proud to be doing whatever he can for "The Planet".
Costs of driving a hybrid
August 9, 2007 - 10:41 ET by EllisWyattMy dad told me a story about his local Toyota dealer. The dealer's mechanic had to take him into the garage, and while he was there the mechanic pointed to several Prius' that were in the shop. The drivers had let the level of gasoline drop below a quarter tank. You cannot let this happen with hybrids, because the engine will be damaged if the fuel level gets too low. Most people don't realize this, probably because they didn't bother to read the owner's manual. I wonder if this is what happened to your neighbors, and I wonder if these kinds of human error costs are included in the cost calculations.
If you're not outraged at the media, you haven't been paying attention.
....severely limiting
August 9, 2007 - 11:10 ET by RJ....severely limiting the effective range of the vehicle.
.....(sigh).... These
August 8, 2007 - 19:14 ET by MidAmerica.....(sigh).... These things won't save one thimble full of gas. If you lower the cost per mile people will just drive more miles.
After "Just like Paris
August 8, 2007 - 19:31 ET by balboaAfter "Just like Paris Hilton," I was so sure that the next words were going to be "USA Today loves driving drunk and going commando."
"...to save energy and to
August 8, 2007 - 20:49 ET by Trix Rabbit"...to save energy and to save our earth from all this-you know pollution so I think..."
Now, stop right there, Paris. You think? Are you even capable of a cogent and coherent thought?
Fuhgeddaboudit.
Liberal: a power worshipper without power. George Orwell
WAIT! WAIT! What about...
August 8, 2007 - 21:28 ET by Special Kaythe interior lighting and the headlights? Are they FLOURESCENT!?
I'm still holding my sides over Paris the Airhead being quoted as some kind of EXPERT!!!
omg - my sides...
"Interum faeces et urinam nascimur"
has anyone even given thought
August 8, 2007 - 22:31 ET by Cape Conservativeas to what will happen when all of these special batteries become part of a landfill when the hybrid's life is over???
Talk about environmental concern!
But how much gas is used by
August 8, 2007 - 23:11 ET by KhyrisBut how much gas is used by the tow-truck? And what kind of mileage does that truck get with cargo?
That said, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that hybrids will be refined (someday) to the point where they actually do save gasoline usage. It's just like modern computers... there wouldn't have been the funding to develop the super-computers of today if no-one bought the vacuum-tube machines of yesterday.
I wouldn't discourage people from at least investigating the possibility of an energy conservation method just because the short-term isn't all roses. I don't yet see it as un-promising.
Heck, nobody expected perfect results in Iraq in the first week.... Peace in the middle east and Western values, an end to jihadism. We know these things are a long term (and expensive) investment.
The Truth about Hybrids
August 9, 2007 - 00:01 ET by PopularTechDo Hybrids Make Financial Sense Yet? (Edmunds)
"It takes the Prius a shocking 13.6 years to catch up with the Corolla." - Edmunds
EPA Lowers Prius Mileage Estimate (Consumer Affairs)
"the very same EPA that now says the Prius gets roughly 45 miles to a gallon praised the little car for topping the government mileage list with 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway despite protests from many Prius owners saying that just wasn't so." - Consumer Affairs
Hybrid cars and the vanishing tax credit (Consumer Reports)
Hybrid hype, and miscellaneous ramblings (Brock Yates, Car and Driver)
Hybrid issues, and a rising star at Indy (Brock Yates, Car and Driver)
"battery replacement will cost $5300 for the Toyota and Lexus hybrids, and the Ford Escape replacements run a whopping $7200." - Yates
New versus old EPA mpg (Consumer Reports)
Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage (The Recorder)
"When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer." - The Recorder
Savings at Pump Don't Offset Higher Purchase Price (Consumer Affairs)
"none of the six hybrids tested recovered its price premium in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership. In fact, the extra ownership costs over five years for those vehicles ranged from $3,700 to $13,300. Even when the analysis was extended to a period of 10 years and 150,000 miles, it was not possible to recover the price premium for a hybrid vehicle." - Consumer Affairs
The costly secrets of hybrid cars (MSN Money)
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
Education of those who believe in "Man-Made" Global Warming
August 9, 2007 - 00:05 ET by PopularTechThis works everytime...
Celebrities:
Alanis Morissette, High School Diploma
Alicia Keys, College Dropout
Alicia Silverstone, High School Dropout
Art Bell, College Dropout
Ben Stiller, College Dropout
Bill Maher, B.A. English (no science degree)
Bono (Paul Hewson), High School Diploma
Brad Pitt, College Dropout
Cameron Diaz, High School Dropout
Daryl Hanna, B.F.A. Theater (no science degree)
Diane Keaton, College Dropout
Drew Barrymore, High School Dropout
Ed Begley Jr., High School Diploma
George Clooney, College Dropout
Gwyneth Paltrow, College Dropout
John Travolta, High School Dropout
Jon Bon Jovi (John Bongiovi), High School Diploma
Joshua Jackson, High School Dropout
Julia Louis-Dreyfus, College Dropout
Julia Roberts, College Dropout
Keanu Reeves, High School Dropout
Kevin Bacon, High School Dropout
Kiefer Sutherland, High School Dropout
Leonardo DiCaprio, High School Dropout
Madonna (Madonna Ciccone), College Dropout
Matt Damon, College Dropout
Michael Moore, College Dropout
Nicole Richie, College Dropout
Olivia Newton-John, High School Dropout
Oprah Winfrey, B.A. Speech and Drama (no science degree)
Orlando Bloom, High School Dropout, B.A. Drama (no science degree)
Paris Hilton, High School Dropout
Pierce Brosnan. High School Dropout
Richard Branson, High School Dropout
Robert Redford, College Dropout
Sean Penn, College Dropout
Sheryl Crow, B.A. Music Education (no science degree)
Sienna Miller, High School Diploma
Willie Nelson, High School Dropout + College Dropout
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
Prius..the car for those who can't do math...
August 9, 2007 - 01:17 ET by Army BratMy lil' 2000 Toyota Echo gets 50 on the highway. This is about 4 more miles to the gallon than I've heard of or read about at the various chat rooms regarding same. The lil beggar will cruise right along at 105, if I could get away with it. No kidding. It comes outta 1st at 47, 2nd at 67, 3rd is good to 98 and the computer cuts it off at 112 in 4th whilst it's still accelerating briskly. (It's a 5 speed manual.)
The car cost me 10 grand in 2000, and is going strong. How long will a Prius owner have to drive his hybrid to break even? And everytime they get close to breaking even, they have to buy another 3 thousand dollar battery. Others have already posted info on that debacle. I didn't get my car to save the earth. I got it to save my money. Maybe the people that make a decison to buy a Prius or other hybrids, do so on the basis of how smug they get to feel when looking at someone in an SUV. Perhaps they actually think that their making a sacrifice of money is going to improve the environment by their taking it in the...by buying one. But if they think they're gonna save money or the environment, then they clearly suck at math. Happy Trails...
}}---> An echo in here?
August 9, 2007 - 01:21 ET by Cool ArrowNo fair, brat. My wife's Echo only gets about 34. She still wouldn't trade it in for a guzzler.
Nice
August 9, 2007 - 10:51 ET by PopularTech"Prius..the car for those who can't do math..." - I love it.
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
}}---> PopTech
August 9, 2007 - 01:18 ET by Cool ArrowAnd when Jackson Browne isn't slapping beautiful women around, he is an environmentalist and excellent musician.
Drop Outs
August 9, 2007 - 10:52 ET by EllisWyattDon't you know that they dropped out of college or high school because they were too smart for the rest of us? They know how to sing and / or act, and that is so much more important than aptitude in science or the ability to reason. Didn't Einstein say imagination is more important than knowledge?
If you're not outraged at the media, you haven't been paying attention.
We love our hybrid
August 9, 2007 - 02:01 ET by niner-four-whiskeyWell, we went from owning a VW diesel to a Lexus hybrid RX400.
Love it.
The cost differential wasn't that bad and my friends that have them have had no trouble at all with them.
At California gas prices, I figure less than 3 years to recover the price difference vs the gas-only version of the same car. We average about 26 in it mostly city, which is pretty darn good for a nice comfy SUV. It's a pleasure to drive too.
Are you sure you did the math?
August 9, 2007 - 02:29 ET by PopularTechHybrid issues, and a rising star at Indy (Brock Yates, Car and Driver)
"battery replacement will cost $5300 for the Toyota and Lexus hybrids"
Do Hybrids Make Financial Sense Yet? (Edmunds)
"The Lexus RX400h takes a whopping 13.6 years to break even with the Lexus RX350"
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
I'm quite certain of my
August 9, 2007 - 04:09 ET by niner-four-whiskeyI'm quite certain of my numbers.
Your article references are out of date by a couple of years by the way.
Edmunds numbers are old and presume no discounts on the hybrids. The "hybrid premium" is not that much anymore. Current pricing is far more favorable.
Plus from personal experience, the 350 doesn't get anything like it's estimated mileage in the city. Three years at current California gas prices. Maybe longer if it goes down, maybe less if it goes up.
I think global warming is a hoax. But don't see any reason to burn more gas than I need to or spend more money on the stuff.
All in all, its a fantastic machine. Quiet, plenty of power and it gets better mileage than anything else its size or comfort level. What's not to love?
From an engineering standpoint, hybrids are a great idea. Why not capture the energy wasted from braking and use it to improve economy?
PS: The battery is warranted for 10 years/100,000. Free replacement if it goes bad. It consists of a couple of hundred NiMH batteries. There will be a budding industry of battery rebuilders in a few years. I doubt it will cost anymore than rebuilding a transmission when it eventually is out of warranty.
2007 is out of date?
August 9, 2007 - 08:35 ET by PopularTechI had no idea 2007 model cars and their numbers were "years old". Did you even read the article? They are talking about 2007 model year cars!
Actually they did include the discounts:
"Calculations were based on Edmunds' True Market Value for each vehicle, 15,000 miles per year combined city and highway driving, the average national price of gas ($3 per gallon on August 14), rebates and 2006 federal tax credits"
California currently is averaging $2.90 per gallon for regular. Thus there information and numbers are accurate. So depending on how many miles you drive per year it will take you 8-13 years to break even with a non-Hybrid. Financially that makes no sense. What is there to love? Well you are spending more money then you need. Engineering ideas and financial sense are two different things.
The complaints that I have seen about the batteries occur over 100,000 miles and you have to drive your hybrid to 200,000 to break even.
Where is your evidence for battery rebuilders? This is a new one. Everything I have seen and all the numbers I have run show Hybrids to be a big waste of money.
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
The VW diesel got what for
August 9, 2007 - 09:55 ET by general companyThe VW diesel got what for fuel mileage?
When we looked into it, we could not have recuped the extra 7-10K in fuel before the warrenty is up, we looked at virtually all makes/models, although I must admit I did not even conceder the Lexus. Too much $, we are trying to save that.
Vincentric Data Misrepresented.
August 9, 2007 - 04:39 ET by niner-four-whiskeyJulia,
You mentioned, "Vicentric" and their data. However, the name of the research company is Vincentric.
Interestingly enough, they LIKE the hybrids.
Their list of best 2007 Passenger Cars includes hybrids in 4 out of 16 categories! In fact, they like the Prius so much that it took both spots in the mid size category. Also winners are the Civic Hybrid and the Lexus GS450h.
http://vincentric.co...
I'm calling you on the carpet. You've misrepresented the research published by Vincentric. The Civic Hybrid is their winner in the Compact, over $18,000 segment. A segment populated by a great many competitors.
The ONLY reason the 5 year cost of ownership is higher is because the standard Civic used in the comparison is a MUCH lower trim level!!!! NOT the cost of fuel and maintenance.
If like trim levels were compared, the Hybrid is certainly going to enjoy a far more favorable comparison.
The hybrid kicks the standard Civic's butt on fuel, consuming $1772 less gas than the entry level Civic DX.
Please, go to the Vincentric website and compare the numbers yourself.
Julia, I'm sorry, but this is the kind of shoddy journalism practiced by the left and MSM. I flat out expect better from conservative journalists.
Sorry your wrong
August 9, 2007 - 10:47 ET by PopularTechYOUR misrepresenting the data. What you linked to is listing cars at PRICE POINTS! The Civic Sedan and Hybrid are the same SIZE cars. A more expensive Hybrid car wins a category on Price over $18,000 while the SAME SIZE non-Hybrid car wins the same SIZE category except it is for under $18,000 and you claim fraud? Give me a break. Oh and the trim level argument is pathetic.
Wow a Hybrid beats a non-Hybrid in fuel economy! We had NO IDEA! Please.
Edmunds confirms how financially bad Hybrids are:
Edmunds Study: Do Hybrids Make Financial Sense Yet?
The Honda Civic EX takes 6.1 years to break even with the Civic Hybrid.
The only thing shoddy is those apparently unable to due the math on Hybrids. You didn't even bother to read the articles I linked too before, I am not surprised you were unable to understand the data here. Next you will be trying to dispute the fact that it does not really take the Prius a shocking 13.6 years to catch up with the Corolla.
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
Sorry, but you're WRONG the article is 2 years old
August 9, 2007 - 15:40 ET by niner-four-whiskeyThe Edmunds article is two years old. The Edmunds article presumes that the Hybrids are sold at full sticker and the non-hybrids at a dicount to sticker.
Even in Silicon Valley, hybrids are readily available at discounts off sticker today.
That wasn't true 2 years ago.
Stop Making Things Up!
August 9, 2007 - 18:52 ET by PopularTechWill you please stop making things up. The article came out less than a year ago! How do you think they are able to talk about the pricing of 2007 model cars?
Now you are simply lying. The Edmunds article clearly states:
"Calculations were based on Edmunds' True Market Value for each vehicle"
There is no biased comparison anywhere. The same pricing methods are used for each.
Now I see your problem, you simply assume because you did not see discounts off sticker two years ago that the article must be that old. That is ridiculous and proof of your poor analytical and researching skills.
"...rebates and 2006 federal tax credits."
They included the discounts!!! You keep making ridiculous statements and you still failed to read the article.
FYI the Tax Credit is disappearing:
Hybrid cars and the vanishing tax credit (Consumer Reports)
"However, if a manufacturer--not just a brand--sells more than 60,000
hybrids total, the credit starts going away. The credit has already
begun to phase out for Toyota and Lexus hybrids purchased after
September 30, 2006, and others will follow suit a they reach the sales
volume target. The 2006 Prius’ tax break, for instance, dropped in half
to $1,575 if it was purchased after that date, and it will split again
to $788 between April and the end of September, 2007. After that, the
Prius rebate disappears altogether."
Do I need to do all the research for you?
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
I did go to
August 9, 2007 - 14:27 ET by KhyrisI did go to the Vincentric website, and found their choice of "award" to be flawed given the data that they presented.
The data you linked to does indeed show the cost of ownership to be less for the hybrid than the civic when not accounting for starting point price. If you look at only repairs, maintenance, and fuel, (which are the only factors not related to starting price)
The hybrid = $6458 over 5 years
The DX = $8006 over 5 years
Even ignoring the fact that the hybrid includes a tax credit, that difference of $1548 does not make up for the difference in cost.
From Honda's site:
Fuel, maintenance, and repair costs for the EX should be the same as the DX since they share identical powertrains, but even comparing to the more costly EX as you requested for "trim level" purposes, the Hybrid still doesn't add up:
MSRP EX automatic: $19510
MSRP Hybrid: $22600
difference $3090
$3090 > $1548
If you factor in the difference in ownership cost for financing the more expensive hybrid, insuring the more expensive hybrid etc, the difference only grows.
That's not even comparing it to the $15010 DX
Even assuming a non-exponential increase in cost of owenrship, it would take 10 years for your hybrid to pay for the added sticker price above the EX. With accelerated depreciation it takes even longer.
It's good that you found the site and looked at their conclusion, but look at the data they presented and decide for yourself whether the conclusion was valid. I'd say it wasn't, without using any outside sources other than mfg msrp.
It's just like the IPCC report... you can believe the conclusion if you want, but the data it contains doesn't support itself.
Will hybrids be worth something someday? Most likely... Am I discouraging people from buying them? Absolutely not. Burgeoning technology requires early adopters in order to survive past infancy and make it to efficiency.
But don't claim this author misrepresented the current data.
Look, Vincentric picked
August 9, 2007 - 15:55 ET by niner-four-whiskeyLook, Vincentric picked hybrids in practically every category as best value. Yes, they pick them on price points. Price point includes TRIM level. Not just the size of the car.
The Civic DX is the base, model, a stripper is $15k. The LX and DX trim levels cost more. The hybrid Civic has a higher trim level in its base configuration and compares with the higher trim-level versions of the Civic. The difference is about $3000 when comparably equipped models are compared.
Here's Vincentric's own data:
http://www.vincentri...
They conclude the hybrid costs $483 more to own. However, they also use sticker price on the hybrid and a discount price on the EX. Presuming one can get a >$500 discount on the Civic hybrid (and one can these days), then the hybrid will cost less.
again, even on the data you
August 9, 2007 - 17:16 ET by Khyrisagain, even on the data you just linked to, their math is completely screwy:
Opportunity Cost
3870
4409
-539
why is the more expensive car going to SAVE you $539 in opportunity cost? That's absolutely backwards to the definition of what opportunity cost IS.
The comparison I did above DID account for comparable trim levels, and I even gave the price for an automatic (dunno why they chose the manual for this one) in the same price range: above $18,000 was the break point they chose.
I dunno, they can't seem to keep their numbers straight, I don't know why I'd believe Vincentric is a reputable source. Edmunds has been pretty reliable for a long time, and even two years old I'd be more inclined to believe them.
But approach the problem another way:
say you average 50 mpg (overestimated 0.02gpm) in the hybrid and 20 mpg (underestimated 0.05gpm) in the gas one.
Use the least expensive hybrid price, and the more expensive EX price, with a difference as above of $3090. Even at the inflated $3.24 per gallon they used, in order to save the difference in gas alone, you would not break even until you had SAVED 953.7 gallons. If you save .03 gallons per mile driven (.05-.02) then you would have to drive 31790 miles to break even, which is barely less than the equivalent of round trips to work 12 miles away 5 days a week for 5 years.
That still doesn't include elevated costs of ownership for insurance, financing etc.
If we were to make the comparison a little more realistic, and use 45 mpg, 25 mpg, and $3.15 per gallon, then the number becomes 55,179 miles, or with the same commute, 8.8 years.
Price Points = Trim Levels?
August 9, 2007 - 18:56 ET by PopularTechWhere do they state Price Points = Trim Levels?
FYI - the Edmunds Comparison went out of their way to make sure that each car had the same options:
"Where necessary, we added options, such as leather or a sunroof in the 2006 Toyota Highlander Limited, in order to make the hybrid-to-gas model comparison as close as possible"
The Anti "Man-Made" Global Warming Resource
" you know pollution"? My
August 9, 2007 - 09:03 ET by danbo" you know pollution"? My question to everyone who thinks carbon dioxide is pollution.
If you had the ability to rid planet earth of every bit of carbon dioxide? Would you?
"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Meteorology, MIT
Green My Butt
August 9, 2007 - 20:54 ET by compguytracyLiving in a cold weather state (WI) i know all about normal battery life, when it is below freezing, a car battery only lasts for roughly 3-5 years, now this is a normal cycle for them, when you have to replace a hybrid battery, i have heard anywhere from 5000 to 10000 dollars, is this actully a saving? what about recycling or disposing of these 300 plus pound batteries, is this good for the environment.