Although the cover of the April 21 Time magazine has gotten widespread complaints from the veterans and has been scrutinized by the media, a spokesman from Time offered no apology. The magazine had changed for their decision to use the iconic image of the Iwo Jima flagraising to promote global warming activism.
"TIME has the utmost respect for our nation's veterans and we well understand the power of the iconic image of the raising of the flag over Iwo Jima," Daniel Kile, associate director of public relations at Time, said in an e-mail to the Business & Media Institute (BMI). "We believe this is a respectful use of this symbol of American valor and courage and serves to highlight another great challenge facing our nation."
The magazine's cover replaced removed the flag in the famous photo and replaced it with a tree.
However, other Iwo Jima veterans that have stepped forward see it differently. Included below is some of the feedback the BMI has received from hundreds of upset veterans in wake of the Time cover:
"As a veteran who was at Iwo Jima before, during and after the invasion, I think anything about the World War should be off-limits to any form of non military promotion or advertisement, especially by any of the present generation of spoiled people few of who appreciate the services and sacrifices of the relatively few of that generation."
"I am a marine, 82 years old that landed on Iwo Jima Feb. 19, 1945. This crap you have on your magazine - you can put it where the sun does not shine."
"As a former Marine and survivor of Iwo Jima, I am canceling my subscription to Time magazine ungrateful bastards."
Time magazine is owned by Time Warner (NYSE:TWX).




















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Comments Policy
TimeThe savior magazine practices resurrection of a fallen tree
April 19, 2008 - 16:02 ET by upcountrywaterfelled by the EVIL logging companies.
Time SCREWS the Military, again and again and again!
Boycott is what i do, and am still happy in that choice.
<gaia/love>SAVVVE The Whales N' Earth; conserve N' recycle !
IranianUranium<sleep>New/Infrastructure/repair?/ROFLMAO
maybe thats why
April 19, 2008 - 16:34 ET by crosspatchI haven't purchased Time in over a decade.
No respect
April 19, 2008 - 16:43 ET by Jerry MackThe only thing these wimps respect is their agenda.
Editorial Policy
April 19, 2008 - 17:09 ET by BacchusTime Magazine prints offensive cartoons.
Agenda
April 19, 2008 - 19:47 ET by ThisnThatThat's all that Time has left -- an Agenda. They certainly don't have any respect for others. No understanding of history or sacrifice. They have no courage; no ethics; and no self-respect. So the only thing left to push is their agenda, which they pick up from the most radical of leftist radicals.
___________________________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
I wish
April 19, 2008 - 17:38 ET by BlondeYou'd replace that offensive picture.
Perhaps with the real one.
I'm sick of seeing such mockery by idiot media mutts.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
!
April 19, 2008 - 17:42 ET by DontFeedTheTrollsHey all you greenies out there, if you buy Time magazine you are killing Mother Earth! You will not be reincarnated.
D
Keep the ILLEGALS out, join NumbersUSA to send free faxes to your reps.
This guy is an SOB of the first order
April 19, 2008 - 17:53 ET by DelsaThis guy is out of his mind.
He is willing to have us all go to Heck in a hand basket for a TREE
Time rag? Surprise? Not hardly.
It is a shame to think our military have to protect these creep along withthe rest of us.
Maybe we could seperate them out and send them to their pals at Gitmo? Or build them a palace in Anwar. or....
Just get rid of them.
And STOP buying this awful rag!
He is willing to have us
April 19, 2008 - 18:50 ET by JasonCHe is willing to have us all go to Heck in a hand basket for a TREE
Where does it say that?
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Respect?
April 19, 2008 - 18:20 ET by mom_roxMr. Kile, you have got to be kidding. What's next? Solar panels on the Alamo? A wind turbine on the Washington Monument?
A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.
- George Bernard Shaw, 1944
Time Warner - Apologies for Thugs, but Not For Vets
April 19, 2008 - 18:24 ET by Free StinkerMeanwhile, another Time Warner owned property - CNN - is busy apologizing to Communist China after Jack Cafferty (correctly) called Communist China's rulers thugs.
But our vets? Oh no! No apology from Time Warner for them, just for the fascist thugs running mainland China.
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
This is just sad...no not
April 19, 2008 - 18:39 ET by JasonCThis is just sad...no not the Time cover, but your and the Vet's reaction to it. Iconic WWII imagery is used for non-military purposes all the damn time. Only when it alludes to a cause that you happen to be against is it suddenly this Seriously Offensive Problem.
If you want to critique those who have overdetermined the AGW issue, go for it. I'll be right there with you, in fact. But sweepingly condemning them for using WWII iconography that is constantly used in non-military contexts and acting like that very act alone is what's offensive - as opposed to a simple ideological disagreement - is transparent and shallow.
We believe this is a respectful use of this symbol of American valor
and courage and serves to highlight another great challenge facing our
nation
Personal beliefs about the validity of Global Warming notwithstanding, this is a perfectly legitimate explanation. I'm quite certain that when WWII imagery is deployed for conservative purposes, you all wouldn't have such a problem with it. Just admit that your indignant outrage is not about use of this image, but about use of this image by a cause you perceive as liberal. That's all I ask.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Jason,My problem with
April 19, 2008 - 19:24 ET by fitzfongJason,
My problem with this cover is that it trivializes the sacrifices made by our men and women in combat by putting it on a moral equivalence with the actions of self-described environmentalists. True, I'm dubious to many of the predictions (not to mention the motives) of those who identify with the environmentalist movement, but I don't believe it helps their cause having a publication like Time put their actions in the same stratosphere as those of our Veterans. Frankly, it makes the environmentalists and Time Magazine look absurd. Off the top of my head, I don't recall any similar uses of iconic military imagery for commercial or even political purposes...though I don't dispute your suggestion that it has been done (perhaps many times) before. But, to me, this cover suggests a certain cynicism and manipulation...presumably much of the enviromental left is anti-war, so it strikes as rather convenient that a war analogy/justification would be used for this purpose. Just a thought.
-fitz
Fair enough, Fitz. Though
April 19, 2008 - 19:39 ET by JasonCFair enough, Fitz. Though I do think that problems of environment and resources could very well become a monumental challenge that we will have to face some time this century. And while it may not be the same sort of challenge as the eradication fascism, it seems to me that this cover is positing that the American people's longstanding ability to unify over such challenges could become necessary once again. I am not an environmentalist or a big AGW believer, but I found this image to be not only appropriate but rather poignant.
My big problem with regards to the hypocrisy of some posters on this site and their purporting to be stoic advocates of veterans and the troops, is the way in which this support vanishes when it's not ideologically expedient. See for instance Warner Todd Huston's article last week about the girl in Maine and her art project with flags on the floor. The girl's father, a Vietnam veteran, said he thought it was an interesting and legitimate project, and several posters on here immediately suggested that he was one of the malignant few veterans (like Kerry, of course) who came home hating America, that he's obviously not a "real" vet, and so forth. Sickening.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Evidence?
April 19, 2008 - 20:23 ET by PopularTechDo you have any evidence that the environment and resources will become a "problem" this century? Because all I here are emotional arguments and beliefs but absolutely no facts.
I am slightly disturbed that you find this image "appropriate" or "poignant". The only thing it is "poignant" to is those who buy into the current irrational eco-hysteria going on or want to. Which makes your comments a contradiction.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
That's like me asking you
April 19, 2008 - 21:48 ET by JasonCThat's like me asking you if you have any evidence that another major terrorist attack might happen.
I am not an AGW fantatic by any means - hell, I forget to recycle half the time. But it is a major contemporary issue, and you can be certain it will shape the next several decades of political discourse and policy.
I maintain that hysteria over use of this iconography has nothing to do with its use per se and everything to do with the particular ideology behind those who happened to use it.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Evidence is everything
April 19, 2008 - 22:47 ET by PopularTechWe have already had a major Terrorist attack = 9/11. So taking precautions to prevent this from happening again is logical. I mean now you are using Gore talking points to argue for a scientific issue.
Your statements have nothing but emotion behind them, especially when you say it is a "major contemporary issue"? How? Where is the evidence?
"Though I do think that problems of environment and resources could very well become a monumental challenge that we will have to face some time this century."
What makes you think this? What evidence do you have for this? Because this is a significant statement that without evidence is irrational.
The concern over the image has everything to do with it's use since those upset with it feel it is disrespectful and an insult to those who served during WWII.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
ScoreCard
April 19, 2008 - 22:53 ET by Free StinkerPopularTech: 1
Asshat: 0
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
We have already had a major
April 19, 2008 - 23:18 ET by JasonCWe have already had a major Terrorist attack = 9/11. So taking
precautions to prevent this from happening again is logical. I mean now
you are using Gore talking points to argue for a scientific issue.
That's why I said "another." Haven't seen or read anything by Gore, I don't think he's qualified to do much more than advocate politically for environmentalism. His pretending to be a climatologist is embarassing. My analogy was simply that given the plethora of science pointing toward future climate problems (tenuous and flawed as SOME of it may be), it will surely be an issue in the future.
Your statements have nothing but emotion behind them, especially when
you say it is a "major contemporary issue"? How? Where is the evidence?
I'm not a fervent AGW believer but I'm not going to dismiss it outright as liberal nonsense either. When people do that, they sound like 9/11 Truthers, simply refusing to entertain an idea that doesn't square with their radicalism. But seriously, how is it NOT a major contemporary issue?! The very fact that it causes such debate and argument proves that it is! Again, that would be like me saying Iraq isn't an issue simply because I don't believe in the purported reasons for the invasion.
What makes you think this? What evidence do you have for this? Because
this is a significant statement that without evidence is irrational.
Lots and lots of scientific research that may indeed be flawed; but preparing for possible problems and doing environmentally responsible things that, really, can only help, hardly seems like an outrageous proposition.
The concern over the image has everything to do with it's use since
those upset with it feel it is disrespectful and an insult to those who
served during WWII.
Yeah, OK, fair enough. But again, my only point is, would this be so outrage-inducing if it wasn't in the service of a "liberal" cause?
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Scientific Method?
April 19, 2008 - 23:51 ET by PopularTech"My analogy was simply that given the plethora of science pointing toward future climate problems (tenuous and flawed as SOME of it may be), it will surely be an issue in the future."
What "plethora" of science pointing towards future climate problems?
"I'm not a fervent AGW believer but I'm not going to dismiss it outright as liberal nonsense either. When people do that, they sound like 9/11 Truthers, simply refusing to entertain an idea that doesn't square with their radicalism."
I am glad that you are "open minded" but this is science we are talking about here. Prove to me AGW using the scientific method. You seem more concerned with being labeled then being interested in science. The 9/11 Truthers don't have any science either just wild delusional fantasies.
"But seriously, how is it NOT a major contemporary issue?! The very fact that it causes such debate and argument proves that it is! Again, that would be like me saying Iraq isn't an issue simply because I don't believe in the purported reasons for the invasion."
It is a manufactured issue blown WAY out of proportion thanks to Al Gore and all the scientific and computer illiterates in this country who don't have the brain power to demand proof for action based on supposed science for they don't want to risk being labeled "dumb".
"Lots and lots of scientific research that may indeed be flawed; but preparing for possible problems and doing environmentally responsible things that, really, can only help, hardly seems like an outrageous proposition."
Really? Where is all this scientific research that proves AGW via the scientific method? Can you show it to me?
Should we prepare for an alien invasion?
Do you consider taxing CO2 "environmentally" responsible and why?
So everything that is done with the air of "environmentalism" is "good"?
Why do you answer everything I asked with emotionally loaded and unverified replies?
"Yeah, OK, fair enough. But again, my only point is, would this be so outrage-inducing if it wasn't in the service of a "liberal" cause?"
I argue that you show me where we have been hypocrites on this image for partisan reasons. Evidence? I'm still waiting.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
I argue that you show me
April 19, 2008 - 23:58 ET by JasonCI argue that you show me where we have been hypocrites on this image for partisan reasons
As I've said, the very fact that the one WWII image-alteration for non-militaristic purposes that gets its very own NB story happens to be one about AGW. I realize this doesn't constitute proof, and I apologize for the inflammatory nature of my very first post, but I am simply asking people whether they would be as upset over such an alteration if it didn't embody liberal politics.
As to the basic line of questioning in your other remarks: I know there's no "proof." There's also no "proof" that another terrorist attack will happen, but that's no reason to let our guard down. And you know as well as I do that there is a ton of research out there demonstrating malignant climate change. The fact that it's not proven beyond the shadow of a doubt doesn't make it a big lie. The issue of climate change doesn't begin and end with Al Gore.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Ridiculous Argument
April 20, 2008 - 00:16 ET by PopularTechFor your complaint to be valid you need to establish precedence since your implication is that we would be hypocritical if there were not partisan reasons also involved. That is fine just show me the evidence of this, especially with the WWII Iwo Jima Image otherwise your whole point has no grounds.
This is simply an Al Gore Talking point. Terrorism is proven to exist thus action. AGW is not proven REMOTELY thus no action needed. There is no "beyond a shadow of a doubt" there is literally no application of the scientific method to AGW.
I know there is climate change research out there but there is no "ton" of it being "malignant". That is another fallacy. There is a ton of media related reporting that propagandizes this notion.
Climate Change and AGW are two different things.
The issue of climate change begins and ends with science and you have yet to show me ANY.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
Jason,I'm sorry it took
April 20, 2008 - 02:23 ET by fitzfongJason,
I'm sorry it took so long for me to respond...though it looks like you were pretty occupied and I doubt you were holding your breath waiting for my reply.
Anyway, I think this TIME cover is a perfect example of the type of reckless, counterproductive hyperbole so often employed by the environmentalist movement. Even if the editors at TIME believe AGW to be one of the crucial issues facing us in the coming years, they certainly aren't advancing their position with the kind of ludicrous overstatement this cover makes. No matter how stongly environmentalists believe their cause is justified, they're not selflessly putting their lives on the line for others like these Veterans did...so the comparison is frivolous and offensive. If TIME had used another iconic image...say the Moon Landing, replacing the flag with a tree...you would have heard some groans and seen some rolled eyes over the exaggeration, but I don't believe the level of anger would be as high as it is now. In my opinion, it was a thoughtless and/or arrogant call by the editors of TIME.
As for the flags on the floor story, I haven't had a chance to read that one...but I'll try and check it out tomorrow.
-fitz
Fitz, no worries. Thanks
April 20, 2008 - 07:03 ET by JasonCFitz, no worries. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. You might say I was holding my breath waiting for someone to say something of substance. Though I should have checked myself on my initial post, which was admittedly nasty in tone and asking for trouble.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
No Jason...it is wrong,
April 19, 2008 - 21:50 ET by JerNo Jason...it is wrong, utterly and indefensibly wrong. That this and other military iconography may be commercially exploited simply debases those who do so. It does not justify this callous and repellent cheapening of the most inspirational and memorable moment in American military history--a moment when embattled warriors in a stinking corner of hell in the Pacific, a godforsaken island of steaming volcanic ash already drenched with the blood of heroes, briefly paused from the awful business of killing and dying and looked up to gaze upon the defining event of that battle...of that war...of perhaps any war. And then they continued with the killing and the dying.
The photograph which captured that moment--the flag-raising at Iwo Jima--not only gained instant fame while transfixing and rallying a war-weary nation, but was said to guarantee a Marine Corps for the next five hundred years.
Yet, sixty-three years later, a news magazine has thoughtlessly insulted millions of Americans and surely a majority of the remaining World War II veterans whose numbers dwindle by the thousands daily, and sullied the memory and valor of those heroic few of Mount Surabachi who no doubt would rather have died a thousand deaths than surrender the flag on that or any other day. Now, Time has snatched the banner from their hands when they have long since been alive to defend it. And has replaced it with...a...tree!
It is wrong...utterly and indefensibly wrong.
Jer
Yeah Jer, I'm just gonna go
April 19, 2008 - 22:06 ET by JasonCYeah Jer, I'm just gonna go ahead and disagree with you. But as I've said, decrying the use of WWII iconography for any non-military purpose is fine. But picking and choosing what sort of representations are or are not OK based on personal politics is hypocritical. And hiding behind emotionalism about the significance of the original photo (the significance of which I was aware before your recap, thanks) only makes things worse.
If you find the parodic use of military images to be wrong fine. But whether its altered in the service of environmentalism or anything else should not increase or decrease the severity of distaste. It's so painfully obvious that most of the posters here are just seething with rage at what they perveive to be enviro-fascism and are trying to make it all seem worse by throwing the whole "It's disrespectful of the veterans!" meme into the mix.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
How typical Jason
April 19, 2008 - 22:14 ET by BlondeOf you, to just toss out everything that has gone before. The sacrifices of our parents / grandparents.
This just shows your total lack of respect for everything about this country that is fine and good.
Personal politics? This cover of Time rag has insulted an entire generation.
You, sir, are an asshat!
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
An asshat, Blonde? I don't
April 19, 2008 - 22:27 ET by JasonCAn asshat, Blonde? I don't much care for namecalling and will be sure to bring this to the moderators' attention.
Seriously though, my point just sailed right over your pretty little head, didn't it?
Try reading slowly: "If you find the parodic use of military images to be wrong fine. But
whether its altered in the service of environmentalism or anything else
should not increase or decrease the severity of distaste."
Maybe I should have put a comma between the words "wrong" and "fine". Would that have made it clearer. I am not criticizing people who are upset at the cheap use of war iconography for non-war purpose (for the 5th time in as many posts). I am criticizing those who use such purported affrontery as a front for their unbridled anger at AGW activism.
Please, show and explain how I insulted veterans and/or the Greatest Generation.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Fine, Jason, Please do.
April 19, 2008 - 22:29 ET by BlondeNothing you wrote sailed right over my "pretty little head".
I know you, perfectly, you unappreciative liberal. You think it's all well and fine to use one of the most sacrosanct images in our history to frame an apocryphal story. And then defend the idiots who do such a gross thing. No worries, mate....you're the one who looks stupid here, not me.
P.S. An "asshat" is a military term. Just so you know, before you report me. It means....well, I'm sure you can imagine. But if not, why don't you ask some of your military friends? Hmmmm.
P.S.S. Maybe you should stick the comma, you know.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Blonde, I don't have an
April 19, 2008 - 22:55 ET by JasonCBlonde, I don't have an opinion on the Time cover one way or the other. I would have barely noticed it on a store rack. But since it's apparently a problem for some, I'm throwing in my $.02
To summarize:
The veterans, and non-veterans, have every right to be offended by it and to vocalize that offense, obviously.
The editors at Time have every right to use it, as the image is, I'm sure, public domain.
Perhaps the editors at Time should have said something like "we apologize if this has upset people, but..." in addition to the statement they did make, which was "We believe this is a respectful use of this symbol of American valor
and courage and serves to highlight another great challenge facing our
nation." And while I may not agree that AGW is a huge problem facing the nation (though the politicization of it on both sides surely is) I think the first half of that statement is perfectly legit.
My stance, and what I've wanted to put out there from the beginning, is that iconic images of war have been commercially appropriated for a long time. By the logic of some, the opening D-Day scene of Saving Private Ryan should be equally offensive, since it was made in the service of putting together a Hollywood film. And indeed, some people did have a problem with it. Great, fine, that's their right. But what I want to know is whether people are upset with the very idea of using war images in other contexts, period, or if the anger is at the fact that this one happened to be in the service of a vague, more or less benign environmental message (something along the lines of, "Hey, let's rally around this divisive issue and get things done the way the vets did at Iwo Jima"). Now you still might find this message offensive, based on either your belief that iconoclasm should not extend to images of military history or your belief that AGW is total bunk. But I do take issue with those who take the stance of the former as a veneer over the latter.
I'm not sure what you mean by apocryphal. Didn't Time Magazine make this image and its accompanying story?
Is an insult with military etymology any less of an insult? I'd say it's more of one, soldiers are known for very creative, colorful, and efficient insults. I was of course kidding, though, a person would have to be pretty pathetic to go crying to the mods.
P.P.S. But where...?
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Jason
April 19, 2008 - 22:59 ET by BlondeMany fancy words for that back-pedal dance of yours.
P.S.S. I think you know.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Fancy words? Like what?
April 19, 2008 - 23:03 ET by JasonCFancy words? Like what? And it's not backpedalling at all, in fact. It's just putting into no uncertain terms what I've been saying all along. I defy you to pick out one thing in this post that contradicts something I've said elsewhere. Much easier to just accuse me of being ungrateful and ignorant I suppose?
P.P.S. Yeah, that was the joke.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
No opinion? One way or the other?
April 19, 2008 - 23:16 ET by BlondeFor someone with no opinion, Jason, you certainly defended a gross and disgusting use of one of the most sacred images in our country's history. No uncertain terms? Certainly not. We all understand your POV. Anything goes. Nothing is sacrosanct.
But keep it up.
Why don't you reread your comments....I've merely pointed out to you your overly elitist use of the English language here.
Hmmm...did that land a little close to home?
P.S.S. I'm glad you got it.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
An opinion about the cover?
April 19, 2008 - 23:26 ET by JasonCAn opinion about the cover? Not really. About the angry and politicized reaction to it? Yes, that I have an opinion on.
Things can be held sacrosanct by some and not by others. Unfortunately, none of us have the right to not be offended, right? Or to have our sacred cows be afforded special protection over others'?
And when one person's sacred cow is tipped over, and the person gets offended, well then we get to have these wonderful discussions about the nature of icons and sacrosanctness (definitely not really a word, but you see what I mean). But geez, don't act like I'd say "yeah, whatever, it's just good ol' iconoclasm" if they'd painted swatztikas on the soldiers or something similarly horrible. I do have my limits as to what I find offensive too.
So you get to use words like apocryphal and sacrosanct, but I'm the showoff?
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Precisely.
April 19, 2008 - 23:34 ET by BlondeI get to use those words, because I'm not an "elite" member of academe. I use these words in the real world...you know, where we conduct business and make money.
Kindly prove how the image of the Iwo Jima soldiers is not a "sacred cow". And yes, I absolutely object to it's being tipped, for whatever reason.
Or, Jason, am I under the mistaken impression that this image is a national treasure?
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Blonde, it is of course
April 19, 2008 - 23:46 ET by JasonCBlonde, it is of course absolutely your right to feel offended by this, and yes, it is a national treasure. I never suggested it wasn't. I suggested that we don't have the right to demand protection for what we regard as treasure or as a sacred cow.
Whatever. We're totally arguing in circles. All I wanted to know was whether you'd be offended at any misrepresentation of the Iwo Jima photo or if this one is particularly infuriating because it promotes a Green agenda. Geez, it seemed like an interesting point at the time.
Three things.
1. So only people in certain lines of work are allowed to speak and write properly with close attention paid to usage and grammar? Now who's the elitist?
2. Why do you mock academia? I know you've been to college since your alma mater is all you can talk about during football season.
3. Do you really use the word "apocryphal" in your line of work? What on earth do you do?
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
I'd be offended at any misuse of this image
April 20, 2008 - 00:00 ET by BlondeLike, for instance, selling candy bars.
Okay, that having been said:
1). I don't ordinarily use "big" words on the boards.....only with snobs, like certain academics, who throw them around to try to impress mere mortals.
2). Why do I mock? Surely you jest.
3). Yes, I do...when appropriate. Gee, Jason, I've even used the word "juxtaposition" in a sentence this week. And if you don't know what I do by now...I'm not going to tell you. Better work on that reading comprehension, there, academic dude.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
"I'd be offended at any
April 20, 2008 - 00:03 ET by JasonC"I'd be offended at any misuse of this image"
All I wanted to know. Thank you.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
All I wanted to know. Thank
April 20, 2008 - 12:38 ET byAll I wanted to know. Thank you.
you have now reached the zen
any further interaction will ruin your cosmic balance throwing you into a hopeless spiral to oblivion
“i am the quixotic botg and i approved this message”
Blonde Once again the
April 20, 2008 - 12:21 ET by ahusserBlonde
Once again the trolls (who now are pretty close to taking over this website), with their illogical, irrational, liberal knee jerk responses to every posting show their true yellow colors, their total lack of respect for any previous sacrifice any veterans have made. Their total lack of comprehension of what these sacrifices were. Their ability to continue to defend the indefensible. The contempt they show and the pretzel logic they use to justify their Anti-American, hatred of this country, it's institutions and it's history, it's people and beliefs always show through their snide, smug, self righteous rhetoric. Their utterly total lack of understanding of history never deters them from spewing their contrary crud. To me these individuals are the real flat earthers and deniers. I am sorry if you all are offended or just smirk at my remarks. But in my world you are more of a collective threat to this country than any Muslim terrorist could ever possibly be.
ahussar
April 20, 2008 - 12:42 ET by BlondeI'm in agreement with everything you wrote, except I'm not so sure I'd call JasonC a troll, but rather an unmitigated liberal. I find it incredible that anyone would think the use of this image to promote the "war" on Global Warming is just fine and dandy.
This Time rag cover created quite a commotion over at Blackfive, as well.
Jer, OTOH, who we all know has liberal leanings, has written a beautiful takedown of this idiotic Time cover.
I read another poster's comment that time lost 1/6 of its subscribers last year....here's hoping they lose another half over thier latest disgraceful contribution to "journalism".
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Aw, ahusser, I'd love to
April 20, 2008 - 13:37 ET by JasonCAw, ahusser, I'd love to argue with you but you still haven't even replied to the thread where I called you out on your BS last time.
http://newsbusters.o...
Now, for what it's worth, I happen to think that people with your attitude are a threat to America. Though not worse than a Muslim terrorist, of course, that would just be a stupid thing to say. You're more like a threat of shrill bombast and irritation.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Again Evidence
April 19, 2008 - 22:53 ET by PopularTechWhere have we defended some offensive use of the WWII Iwo Jima image because of personal partisan politics? It is one thing to make the accusation it is another to back it up.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
I didn't say anyone
April 19, 2008 - 22:58 ET by JasonCI didn't say anyone "defended" it, and my comments are not limited to Iwo Jima. I'm basing this on the elephant in the room, the fact that it's awfully suspect that of all the decontextualized WWII iconography in popular culture, the one with ties to AGW is the one that gets a NB story, especially since some are acting offended by the use of any such representation.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Please present the evidence...
April 20, 2008 - 00:22 ET by PopularTechYou need to make your case here, show me evidence for our alleged "hypocrisy" on this image:
"decrying the use of WWII iconography for any non-military purpose is fine. But picking and choosing what sort of representations are or are not OK based on personal politics is hypocritical."
Obviously you have evidence of our hypocrisy? Please present it.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
There is that favorite word of braveheart's -
June 19, 2009 - 09:43 ET by JWFdecontextualized
Whip it out. Throw it on the table. Bask in the glow.
Too bad he could not fit in an Ann Coulter reference or compare someone to banned users. A perfect trifecta.
Jer
April 19, 2008 - 22:10 ET by BlondePerfect.
Thank you.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Well stated, Jer. I don't
April 20, 2008 - 02:35 ET by fitzfongWell stated, Jer. I don't believe TIME generates the desired sympathy for environmentalists by trivializing the sacrifices of our Combat Veterans this way. If anything, the cover generates repulsion for the environmental movement.
Thanks, fitz...seeya
April 20, 2008 - 02:45 ET by JerThanks, fitz...seeya later.
Jer
I agree, fitzfong
April 20, 2008 - 06:27 ET by sarcasmoIf Time didn't think they'd offend, they're history-challenged. But if they knew, that's even worse, and not just for the Marines. For their own adopted 'green' cause, unless they think pissing-off the US Marines is somehow a good idea, perhaps on the "any press is good press" theory.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Well written and elegantly
April 20, 2008 - 05:39 ET by Jack BauerWell written and elegantly expressed righteous indignation. Kudos.
Iwo
April 19, 2008 - 18:53 ET by jaywlAs a boot Marine in 1965 learning the history and traditions of the Marine Corps, I and my fellow recruits could only hope that when the time came we could uphold legacy given to us by those men on Iwo Jima. Those four men represented the thousands beneath that summit, the dead and living. A survivor told me that all who landed were causualties and heroes, except of course himself. Men like him always say something like "I hid as much as I could". Ask about their wounds and you'll get a "Just stupid, I stuck my...".
It is because of all this that the editors of Time cannot have any appreciation of the meaning behind that picture. If they did Time would not have equated that battle and its dead heroes with a crisis that may not be a crisis. Even if valid, it may a natural climatic variation the human race will have to adjust to or another short term flucuation. Time could lead a crusade to stop the evironmental disaster in China, but because those ruthless, self-interested communists might ban the magazine, Time will not. In any event, the cover shows Time's ignorance of Mainstream America, again.
Disrespecting the veterans of Iwo Jima
April 19, 2008 - 20:13 ET by williamkingTime's cover is a disgrace and disrespectful to our veterans...those we lost at Iwo Jima are rolling in their graves right now.
Exploitation for Propaganda Purposes
April 19, 2008 - 20:20 ET by PopularTechThe propagandists at Time Magazine have no shame and will exploit anything to advance the eco-hysteria. My grandfather lost a hand and an eye fighting in the Pacific and to see Time Magazine disgrace what he did is appalling.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
Jason Doesn't Want To C
April 19, 2008 - 20:37 ET by Intellectual HonestySee for instance Warner Todd Huston's article last week about the girl in Maine and her art project with flags on the floor. The girl's father, a Vietnam veteran, said he thought it was an interesting and legitimate project, and several posters on here immediately suggested that he was one of the malignant few veterans (like Kerry, of course) who came home hating America, that he's obviously not a "real" vet, and so forth. Sickening.
I've read enough about the "artist" from University of Maine (I believe that was the school) to note that I've never seen a quote from the father directly. The "artist" also noted that she was a Republican. I've seen no verification of that in any article either.
What I did see is how this "artist" claimed she was stunned by the response and in fact was suprised to see how upset people many people were with the isea of multiple US flags placed on the floor for anyone to walk on if they wanted to. Even if her father approved it would seem that he would be well aware and would pass on the fact of the angry reaction forthcoming. And as a Veteran he would also know that flag protocol dictates that a flag that has touched the ground is to be disposed and the protocol of how to do as such.
It goes without saying that the veteran father would know that it is a complete violation of flag protocol to deliberately place a flag on the ground/floor AND directly in the path of traffic, pedestrian or vehicle.
Since it is a fact that the "artist" claimed she spoke to her father about the project and that he approved, it is beyond belief that he would not have made it very clear that his point of view, particuarly among veterans, was in the most miniscule minority.
Therefore if some posters, maybe with less tact than JasonC would like, derided the father's patriotism by comparing him to the opportunist likes of John Kerry and his Winter Soldier/Jane Fonda ilk, it would seem that with the facts available there can be no other conclusion.
As to JasonC's claim that conservatives have used or supported the alteration of the ORIGINAL image (political cartoons are reproductions and thus have more brevity): Please show the proof and don't just make confident assumptions.
As to Time: Their editor, as noted on Newsbusters and other sites, professed that they were acting as advocates because they are "experts" on the issue. That is not the role of journalism. Their lofty claim of touting America's ability to lead on such big issues attempts to give equal relevance to a factual event as to a theory that's current proof is very much in question and current predictions are very much to be proved.
Did you see this link? Bush
April 19, 2008 - 20:44 ET by balboaDid you see this link?
Bush dececrates flag...
Balboa
April 19, 2008 - 21:30 ET by Intellectual HonestyThe first thing I noticed about the site you linked with the two pics where President Bush "dececrates" (sic) the flag is that in the seven examples accompanied with photos only two are apparently done with an intent to disrespect or desecrate the flag. That would be the one where a bar displayed the Mexican flag above the US flag and the protestors of "federal funding" (for whatever) that flew the flag upside down.
Of the two where the President is involved one is on an apparent carpet (or doormat) and the other where the President is signing a small flag.
In the photo involving the carpet (doormat) it should be noted that the message is one of respect for the nation and the victims of 911. There is no background to the situation other than the President and First Lady being in Manhattan on 9/11/06. An image of the flag being placed on the floor is a protocol violation but can not compare to the actual act of laying regulation flags on the ground. A slight gray area. Fault first the designer, then the manufacturer, then the purchaser and THEN the President and First lady.
The photo of the President signing the flag again shows a circumstance of respect even if protocol is being violated.
Bottomline Balboa: The examples you point out to make a claim of hypocrisy are without merit.
Thanks for the response. I
April 19, 2008 - 21:35 ET by balboaThanks for the response. I wasn't sure what the reaction would be to that photo. The link was pointed out to me.
Intellectual Honesty...I
April 19, 2008 - 22:49 ET by JerIntellectual Honesty...I had originally posted the link and used the term "Bush desecrates flag" which bal passed along. I really didn't consider Bush's actions to be actual desecration--and they were obviously unintentional as well. But I did believe it was noteworthy to link the photos inasmuch as the young lady who was conducting the "experiment" as part of a class project was being unmercifully excoriated for behavior which I consider hardly more egregious than Bush's. She appeared to have no intention of consciously disrespecting or desecrating the flag.
With respect to the authenticity of the Bush photos, I really can't say. Both have attributions to news services and photographers, however. And the website certainly seems legitimate and committed to encouraging respect for the flag. It also has a page for emails and inquiries.
Jer
Unconfirmed
April 19, 2008 - 21:30 ET by PopularTechCan you provide a link to news outlet confirming this because otherwise I suspect photoshop as I could find no news stories relating to either picture.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
A Thought I Had Too
April 19, 2008 - 22:06 ET by Intellectual HonestyCan you provide a link to news outlet confirming this because otherwise I suspect photoshop as I could find no news stories relating to either picture.
I was going to point out my doubts on the photos themselves but decided to address the content shown and give the benefit of the doubt to their validity.
The first photo seems to have a very definite possibility of being photoshopped. It just seems strange that in what is apparently a very large room that the President and First Lady would walk directly on the carpet. It's not a photo of the two stopping on the carpet so it just seems weird that they would therefore decide to walk directly on it. It's like a car hitting the only tree in a field. The shading/tone of the President and First lady also seems off.
The second is shot from behind and what stood out for me was that the President's supposed writing on the flag is very light and almost indistinguishable. Still much more easy to believe that this was a case of the President possibly not thinking of the protocol or not wanting to disappoint a person's request.
The Photos
April 19, 2008 - 22:10 ET by Intellectual HonestyHere's the link to the page with the photos for anyone wondering:
http://www.ushistory.org/BETSY/flagetiq.html
I don't buy the photos they are bogus
April 19, 2008 - 22:17 ET by PopularTechThere is no mention of this in any news article I could find nor on any of the popular liberal sites just on some random blogs so I suspect they are bogus. The left's exploitation of this would be deafening if it really happened.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
Deafening exploitation--the
April 19, 2008 - 23:49 ET by JerDeafening exploitation--the absence of which suggests bogus photos?
I'm not so sure. The comments accompanying the second photo [Bush autographing a flag] note that the photo had made the rounds on the internet at one time. It would seem that either the "deafening exploitation" by the left, or the exposure of the photo's phoniness by the right, would have occurred at that time.
Jer
I've read enough about the
April 19, 2008 - 22:16 ET by JasonCI've read enough about the "artist" from University of Maine (I believe
that was the school) to note that I've never seen a quote from the
father directly. The "artist" also noted that she was a Republican.
I've seen no verification of that in any article either.
Beside the point. The issue was not whether the father really did or did not say those things, but the immediate knee jerk response from conservatives who immediately decided he couldn't possibly be a "real" soldier.
And as a Veteran he would also know that flag protocol dictates that a
flag that has touched the ground is to be disposed and the protocol of
how to do as such.
As a former Boy Scout, I know that too. But knowing flag protocol and being a veteran doesn't necessarily make one an automaton who can't think for oneself about what is or is not offensive and/or wrong in the way of more or less inconsequential undergrad art projects.
Therefore if some posters, maybe with less tact than JasonC would like,
derided the father's patriotism by comparing him to the opportunist
likes of John Kerry and his Winter Soldier/Jane Fonda ilk, it would
seem that with the facts available there can be no other conclusion.
No, sorry, that's just stupid. You have no clue about this man, his politics, his service, or his thoughts on much of anything. Bottom line: He said something that didn't square with the conservative notion of how a veteran ought to think, so he's labeled a traitorous, spineless anti-American.
As to JasonC's claim that conservatives have used or supported
the alteration of the ORIGINAL image (political cartoons are
reproductions and thus have more brevity): Please show the proof and
don't just make confident assumptions.
My comment was not just about Iwo Jima, it was about all WWII iconography. And, come to think of it, any war iconography period. Now, are you really truly going to claim ignorance as to parodies, imitations, tributes, and other forms that have reconfigured or spoofed iconic moments in military history? Let me quote the first veteran quoted in this story: "As a veteran who was at Iwo Jima before, during and after the invasion,
I think anything about the World War should be off-limits to any form
of non military promotion or advertisement." Now, that's a perfectly legitimate attitude to have. But picking and choosing based on what ideological force happens to be behind the reproduction/spoof is what I am taking issue with.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
Blowback
April 19, 2008 - 23:10 ET by Intellectual HonestyBeside the point. The issue was not whether the father really did or did not say those things, but the immediate knee jerk response from conservatives who immediately decided he couldn't possibly be a "real" soldier.
That was YOUR issue. If you want to quote some specific posters, fine. I did not. I simply pointed out that the father's opinion, if true, was via his daughter's statements. The daughter claims she has always voted Republican. She claims this as to color her intentions, ie. a Republican would never do this "project" in a fashion of disrespect. It's convenient for her and convenient for the school since they both know conservatives/Republicans will be upset. A simple review of voting/registration records would be a basic step for any real journalist but there is of course no interest in checking the veracity of her claims.
As a former Boy Scout, I know that too. But knowing flag protocol and being a veteran doesn't necessarily make one an automaton who can't think for oneself about what is or is not offensive and/or wrong in the way of more or less inconsequential undergrad art projects.
This wasn't an "inconsequential art project" but a consequential "art project" that comfortably used the one symbol that exists in this country that has outlined protocols for some inane sociological rationale that boils down to "how will people react?" You simply ignored my assertion that for the "artist" to claim that she never thought she would see/hear such reaction as she has from veterans and citizens alike shows a lack of commonsense. To think her veteran father would approve but not warn her of the reaction is simply unbelieveable.
No, sorry, that's just stupid. You have no clue about this man, his politics, his service, or his thoughts on much of anything. Bottom line: He said something that didn't square with the conservative notion of how a veteran ought to think, so he's labeled a traitorous, spineless anti-American.
No, he didn't say anything as far as I am concerned. His daughter RELAYED his supposed comments. Show me some direct quotes from him. Even if he did you couldn't disprove the fact that he is out of the mainstream of a vast, vast, vast majority of veterans in regards to the flag. IF he supported the project then he is a veteran that supports desecrating the flag for the most inane rationale that even his daughter can not convincingly describe.
My comment was not just about Iwo Jima, it was about all WWII iconography. And, come to think of it, any war iconography period. Now, are you really truly going to claim ignorance as to parodies, imitations, tributes, and other forms that have reconfigured or spoofed iconic moments in military history? Let me quote the first veteran quoted in this story: "As a veteran who was at Iwo Jima before, during and after the invasion,
I think anything about the World War should be off-limits to any form of non military promotion or advertisement." Now, that's a perfectly legitimate attitude to have. But picking and choosing based on what ideological force happens to be behind the reproduction/spoof is what I am taking issue with.
First, I stated about using the ORIGINAL image. I noted about the difference between a political cartoon which is generally a form of satire. I should have expanded the list to include "parodies, imitations, tributes" so I append my original post. For many conservatives the issue is not just the use of the most iconic photo because that can be debateable as to which images are being used in bad taste. That is subjective. But I, like many others, do not agree in the attempt to use the ORIGINAL photo and alter it in an attempt to morally equivilate one of the bloodiest battles in WWII (and all the actual historical fact of an empirical nature) that was an fight for the very basic idea of freedom to the political battle that is global warming.
Time admits they are advocating because they are experts. That is not journalism, the image is misused (but not illegal) as far as many of us conservatives are concerned.
Your criticism of some of the posters here's absolutism is fine and dandy but you give, in my opinion, unjust creedence to the motives/proof of the "artist" in the same way as you do Time's stance on Global Warming, their admitted advocacy, and their tatsteless use of an iconic photo for irrelevant and vapid justifications.
This is a good and thorough
April 19, 2008 - 23:33 ET by JasonCThis is a good and thorough post, but I am packing it in for the night and will have to try to return to it tomorrow. Indeed, challenging the pretense of absolutism was my only goal. Frankly, I disagree that WWII and AGW are actually on the same scale, but I respect Time's belief that they have the potential to be so, and I thought their explanation was perfectly acceptable.
Just one quick thing: A simple review of voting/registration records would be a basic step
for any real journalist but there is of course no interest in checking
the veracity of her claims.
Could they really legally find out who she voted for? I'm not a big expert on laws pertaining to polling, but that sounds shady.
Who can revolt if man has become a simple conglomerate of organs, a person barely free enough to use a remote control to choose his channel? -J. Kristeva
More sophmoric journalism
April 19, 2008 - 23:56 ET by JPR1Dad was an Army medic. 96th Infantry, Letye and Okinnowa. He was never a big fan of the Marines but this would have really pissed him off. He passed away a few years back; I'm glad he didn't have to see this s#*t.
I once knew a veteran of
April 20, 2008 - 00:00 ET by NL207I once knew a veteran of Iwo Jima, for most of his life and the vast majority of mine. He would be appalled and disgusted at this were he able to see it. The gob-shites at Time magazine have neither respect nor scruples. They aren't fit to carry his dirty laundry.
JasonC just doesn't get
April 20, 2008 - 02:31 ET by DJEddleJasonC just doesn't get it. Using this picture to promote the anthropogenic global warming agenda is in fact the reason why it is offensive and it is entirely legitimate for anyone to be offended by its use.
Comparing the Battle of Iwo Jima, or any battle from WWII (or any military battle period), with the AGW movement is utterly asinine on multiple levels. Not being able to recognize this does not make what Time did acceptable.
First of all, the Battle of Iwo Jima was a real battle that cost many American lives. It was one of many battles in which we fought to preserve our country and our freedoms. The picture that was taken highlighted the defining moment in the Pacific front. It became an icon immediately after it became public and is still an icon over 60 years later. It represents real life struggles and victory. It encapsulates our perceptions of the determination and triumph of the American military.
The use of the picture on the cover of this magazine is representing a political issue. It is not real...at least not in the sense that it is factual. There is no evidence that we will be facing "another great challenge" allegedly posed by global warming. There is not even evidence that we are responsible for it. And it is not a great concern to the American people (despite the attempts by Al Gore and the media). A new ABC News poll shows just how insignificant the subject is among Americans.
This causes Time's use and alteration of the photo to become a very polarizing issue for not just military veterans and their families and friends, but it also creates hostility among the people who recognize the blatant propaganda being pushed by this magazine. And all the opposing groups are justified. It is also irrelevant whether or not they oppose other misuse of iconic military images. It does not make anyone a hypocrite to point out the propaganda of Time and to be offended by it. If the misuse of pictures has been done by others, shame on them...but it neither negates the utter stupidity of this magazine and their stated advocacy of the political issue of AGW, nor does it justify the absurd use of an iconic picture to equate AGW alarmism with the war against Nazism and Imperialism during WWII.
Using an image that represents something as emotional as this image conveys is not only irresponsible if using it unaltered to prove a non-related political point, but when the image is altered to advocate a certain position for something as divisive as the global warming issue - which is entirely political at this point - it becomes little more than cheap political propaganda at the expense of those emotions and the ones who are emotionally touched by its original significance.
It doesn't matter why people find this offensive and not another misrepresentation of similar images. If this was the only instance in which they were offended, it would still be justified. Arguing about whether or not they are hypocrites or if they ought to be offended is simply a distraction from the real issue...that this image is in fact offensive for many reasons in both the personal and public view.
So, JasonC, your argument misses (or dismisses) the entire point. The problem here is double-edged. We should be offended that the iconic image of war heroes is being misused for a political issue AND because it is being used to advocate a propagandist agenda. Either one by itself would be enough to stir negative emotions, but the two combined are a recipe for considerable outrage.
*If you like the comments, check out the articles.
IWO JIMA - Ignorance or deliberate
April 20, 2008 - 08:16 ET by davodTime managing editor Richard Stengel said "People trust us to make decisions. We’re experts in what we do..." Fir those of you who remember the Get Smart TV series - Why does Maxwell Smart come to mind - "Trust me. I know what I am doing."
IWO JIMA 26,000 US casualties, 6800 dead. The picture should have never been considered for publication. That it was is more than just callous and indifferent, it is part of an effort to hide or demean US history.
A similar incident occured recently which got less of a hearing - Obama Insult Comparing the Campaign to the Bataan Death March. http://www.taylormarsh.com/archives_view.php?id=27392
There are those who may consider discussing the Obama insult to be bringing partisian politics into the equation, but I do not see it in this light. Is it ignorance or a deliberate attempt to distort history. Obama (and his campaign chair - see article) are either ignorant of the history, are relying upon voters ignorance, or do really consider their trivial sacrifices on the camaign comparable to the privatations that occurred during the Bataan Death March.
Par for the course for Slime Magazine.
April 20, 2008 - 12:07 ET by R D HelmThis is the same anti-American rag that printed articles about the Haditha affair based solely on lies supplied by people friendly to our enemies.
To Hell with Time.
Theme for Election '08: Who cares?