'Evening News' Showcases War of the Greens: Trees vs. Solar Panels

Photo of Jeff Poor.
By Jeff Poor | April 8, 2008 - 11:07 ET

Suppose you had trees on your property that served as a privacy barrier and provided shade for your home. Then imagine your eco-minded neighbor installs solar panels and demands you cut down your trees so sunlight can reach his panels.

You might think: It's my property! The problem is - your neighbor has the law backing him up, according to the April 7 "CBS Evening News." Sounds like a case of environmentalism gone wild, right?

"Richard Treanor lives across the fence, drives a hybrid car," CBS correspondent Ben Tracy said. "Ten years ago he planted these redwoods to provide privacy. Now they had his neighbor seeing red."

"He called us over to the fence one day and said ‘I am going to be installing solar panels and therefore you have to take your trees down,'" Treanor explained.

And thanks to California's 1978 Solar Shade Control Act, the trees had to go. Failure to comply is a criminal offense.

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"As it turns out, the law was on the side of the sun," said Tracy. "The California Solar Shade Act requires homeowners to keep their trees from shading more than 10 percent of their neighbor's solar panels between 10:00 a.m. and 2:00 p.m. The experts determined that 15 percent of Mark's solar panels were being shaded by those trees. That meant the trees were in violation and the neighbors that owned them - criminals."

In addition to the personal property violations, the law effectively mandates an energy source that isn't yet affordable - a point completely ignored by "Evening News." Even Anne Thompson, NBC's chief environmental affairs correspondent, reported March 14 it would require a cap-and-trade to make the unaffordable affordable when it comes to solar power.

Eventually as solar power is becomes affordable and mandated, more of these conflicts will arise, predicts a legal scholar. "As solar panels become more and more cost effective, you're going to see more and more disputes between homeowners of this nature," Barton "Buzz" Thompson, a law professor Stanford University, said to CBS.

"But that, of course would require an inconvenient truce," Tracy added.

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No wonder CBS is in the tank

I heard about the battle of the treehuggers about two months ago and CBS is just reporting it now?  Forget subbing out to CNN, just call me, Katie.  For a nominal fee I'll tell you what you need to know.

Incomplete story

I saw the story myself this morning, and it didn't seem so much biased as simply incomplete.  This may be due to the limitations of a typical story on the evening (or morning) newscasts.

If I were the homeowner with the trees, I'd consider appealing a law that requires me to cut down trees that had been there for quite some time because the neighbor wants to use solar panels.  It doesn't seem right that your neighbor can make a unilateral decision that forces you to cut or trim your trees whether you want to or not.  The story didn't explore whether there were alternate ways of installing the solar panels on the property that didn't encounter interference from the trees.

The way the story was worded, it didn't seem to me that Mr. Solar Panel made any effort to negotiate a compromise.  If that isn't liberalism at its finest, I don't know what is. 

When you put the clowns in charge, don't be surprised when a circus breaks out.

Do you think laws like this

Do you think laws like this on the books are helping to fuel the exodus from California? 

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."  - Sir Winston Churchill

Hunter12

Those exiting California because of crazies like SolarPanelMan are only slightly less crazy than him and they bring that mental illness with them to where they relocate. Be afraid. Be very afraid of transplanted Californians. They may look "normal" but none are.

What's sad is the solar

What's sad is the solar panel guy doesn't realize all the gains he gets from his panels will probably go into cooling his house once he looses the shade his neighbor's trees provided. 

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."  - Sir Winston Churchill

But he...

...can beat his chest knowing he has the "power" to run rough shod over his neighbor; the peaceful, liberal way of course.

Sounds like the religion of liberalism is as peaceful and loving as Islam. Maybe we're on to something here...

Forced to cut down trees for neighbors solar panels

What a crazy infringement of property rights! The trees were there first even. Unreal! What part of the meaning of PRIVATE property has the law forgotten? If you do not want the trees, BUY the neighbors property at HIS ASKING price! Very clear that he can then be free to cut them down. Liberal government at its worst.

that's what it's all about

Socialism is all about 'nothing is yours'. Everything is for the common good. The concept of private property is one of the very first things to go. Welcome to lefty America. The libs are always crying the the fascist conservatives will want to force them to do this or that. In fact it is virtually always the lefties who turn fascist because they are True Believers.

elitist

I think this is more of an elitist thing than socialism. There's no "common good" even for SolarGuy. He's less "green" now because of all the toxic processes to make the panels. There's less oxygen because the trees are gone. And, it's unlikely he'll ever recoup the cost of the panels before they degrade.

By "elitist" I mean stupid. It's about telling others how to live while you're screwing everything up. SolarGuy needs to move his house underground and put a 300ft windmill above for power. Now that would be "green" but the view would suck.

if the tree falls onto his roof

Go ahead and cut the tree down, making sure it "accidently" falls onto the neighbor's roof. Then install mirrors on your roof, reflecting the sun onto the side of neighbor's house so that his solar panels provide only enough energy to cover the cost of air condidtioning....

If the tree falls onto his roof...

...and he's not home...does it make a sound?

 

Solar Energy: not as Green as you would expect

I've always chuckled at the promotion of solar panels as a "Green" alternative for electricity generation. Do you know how much energy it takes to produce solar panels? Far more than any panel can ever produce in return.

The main component a solar panel is the “cell “, which is made primarily from monocrystalline silicon. This is a highly purified form of silicon that doesn’t exist in nature. You don’t just pick up silicon and spread it out to make solar cells; it requires semiconductor silicon crystals, similar to the silicon wafers used in microprocessors. This form of silicon is produced by melting and purifying the silicon and cooling it in such a way that the desired crystalline structure is produced. That requires enormous amounts of heat and a carefully controlled cooling process to produce the appropriate crystalline structures and create just one component of the cell.

The cells produced are not very efficient, rarely achieving 10 percent efficiency rates. That’s mean only 10 percent or less (usually a lot less!) of the available sunlight is converted into electricity. Each cell can only produce a small amount of current, so it takes a lot of cells chained together to generate a significant amount of useful energy. Because of the inefficiencies of solar cells and the high energy requirements need to create them, it would take thousands of years for a solar panel to generate the equivalent amount of energy that was required to produce that panel and reach the break-even point.

In other words, by using solar panels instead of conventional energy sources like coal or gas, you’re actually wasting thousands of times more energy that you can possible save and you end up using far more fossil fuels that you normally would otherwise. Instead of producing less pollution, you’re producing hundreds of times more. Just how “Green” is that?

Solar panel energy payback about 4 yrs.

FYI, not confirmed but I did find reference that solar panels DO produce more energy than they cost to produce.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V50-439MD43-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=db18b025a880f5550c31450b0358233c

Abstract

Energy payback time is the energy analog to financial payback, defined as the time necessary for a photovoltaic panel to generate the energy equivalent to that used to produce it. This research contributes to the growing literature on net benefits of renewable energy systems by conducting an empirical investigation of as-manufactured photovoltaic modules, evaluating both established and emerging products. Crystalline silicon modules achieve an energy break-even in 3 to 4 years. At the current R&D pilot production rate (8% of capacity) the energy payback time for thin film copper indium diselenide modules is between 9 and 12 years, and in full production is 2 years. Over their lifetime, these solar panels generate 7 to 14 times the energy required to produce them. Energy content findings for the major materials and process steps are presented, and important implications for current research efforts and future prospects are discussed.

Thanks for the link.

Thanks for the link. I have been looking into the payback rates for solar cells and I'm always interested as to what the final results are for each particular study. I’ve seen payback rates that spread from 2 years to never, and that's for several different types of cell. Unfortunately, your link doesn't provide any real data and is just an abstract so it isn't much help.

I was considering installing them myself but others who had them installed told me that they don’t work well here in Minnesota, especially in the winter when the angle of the sun is so low and the amount of sunlight available at this latitude is greatly reduced for most of the year. Every one I know here that had them installed was deeply disappointed in them and had them removed within just a few years.


From what I was able to discover in my inquires, most of the claims for 4 years or less are made for cells that use scrap silicon crystals recovered from the manufacture of microprocessor substructure and those studies did not include the energy consideration of the original crystal manufacturing process and, therefore, do not give an accurate picture as to the payback rates.

Since none of the studies that I've been able to access have included estimates about the energy requirements that is needed to produce the panel’s mounting and support systems (the equipment needed to mount the panels to your roof, for example) and the ancillary equipment needed for solar panel power generation (like voltage regulators, the dc to ac power converters, the additional wiring, the battery storage systems, etc), plus the energy required to transport and install them, the energy required to maintain them, and other energy related factors inherent with the use of solar panels to generate electricity, I still stand by my initial estimate that payback will never occur until a more efficient means of manufacturing them is developed.

So, my conclusion is that solar panels are not “Green” alternative to conventional sources of electrical power generation like so many people claim. That may change in the future, but it’s not happening now. It’s a good idea that does not work well at this time.

(on edit: happening and not happing. Like my daughter just said, "what does happing mean?" Thanks honey!)

Solar Panels are the most expensive way to generate electricity

- Solar Power is the most expensive way to generate electricity (the levelized cost of a kilowatt hour is 3.53 cents for coal, 5.47 cents for gas, 5.94 cents for nuclear, 6.64 cents for wind and 35-50 cents for solar unsubsidized) (Source)
- Commonly available solar panels are only 12% efficient (Source)

Solar - Cloudy Outlook For Solar Panels: Costs Substantially Eclipse Benefits, Study Shows (Science Daily)
Solar - Expert Foresees 10 More Years Of Research & Development To Make Solar Energy Competitive (Science Daily)
Solar - Solar Power Problems Part 1 - Solar Power Presents Many Hurdles to Consumers (The Heartland Institute)
Solar - Solar Power Problems Part 2 - Home Solar Power Fails Due to Practical Difficulties (The Heartland Institute)
Solar - Solar Power Problems Part 3 - Inefficiencies Deter Widespread Use of Solar Power (The Heartland Institute)
Solar - Solar-Powered Welfare (Cato Institute)
Solar - The False Promises of Solar Energy (Michael R. Fox, Ph.D. Physical Chemistry)
Solar - The Problems With Solar Power (Worcester Business Journal)

The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource

This is the unvarnished

This is the unvarnished truth about solar power.  It is not now nor for the foreseeable future be a cost effective alternative to Nuclear power or fossil fuels.

thanks

Thanks for the info. I wasn't interested in the time it took for an "energy" payback. Home owners want to know when they'll get their money back and in the case of solar panels that appears to be never.

Solar payback

Yes I agree it makes no financial sense/payback unless you have no choice like a remote cabin or home; or live in CA where you get huge rebates due to PC incentives.  We use about 4500 kwh/mo. and according to this solar calculator

http://www.gosolarpv.com/index.php?/estimator.html

We would need a 30kw system costing $284K @ $9.50/watt installed.  Invest the $284K @ 4.5% CD you get $1065/mo. Less tax @ 35% = $692/mo.  With our current electric rate, the bill for 4500 kwh is about $500. 

 In CA however, this calculator is showing a 30yr savings of $730K assuming energy cost infation of 6% and getting a home equity loan of 7% for the install.  DEMS in control = 6% annual energy cost inflation! 

 Anyhow, "fossil" energy IS solar energy collected a long time ago.  This is a plain FACT.  Ethanol is from solar collected now.  What the heck is the difference?  Plain crazy not to use oil till the alternatives are cost effective.

Another solar calcuation PV

Another web solar calculator came up with this @ $9/W installed; a 36kW system.  I used 5% electric rate increases & 3% time value of money.

About 38 yr. payback w/no incentives.  About 28 yrs @ $6/W doing the work yourself.

 

http://www.infinitepower.org/calc_pv.htm

And what about the fact

And what about the fact that trees provide shade, and in California I'd guess that would be a good way to save on air conditioning costs. Not to mention that trees provide oxygen and reduce CO2 in the air.

These environmentalists are totally schizophrenic. Not to mention short-sighted and just plain stupid. When people start regulating where the sun shines - well, you can guess how I feel about that. Typical libs. Think that they're in charge of everything including who gets to have sunshine and who doesn't. All in all a delicious conundrum.

P.S. Thank you for your information, Cobra. But for the lib environmentalists it's more about feeling good about what you're doing than it is about actually accomplishing the goal. 

I am the exotic Queen Mum, and I approved this message.

In at least one FL community

It's literally illegal to cut down your own trees without permission from the government. A conflict between this law and that would be hilarious, IMO.
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

Gore anyone?

This thing is like Alberto Gore who uses more energy than any 200 of the rest of us, but who insists that it is us who must, shall, will buy carbon credits from him in order for us to allay our, not his, environmental sins.

These people are nuts, and if we are lucky, will eat each other before they kill the rest of us off.

Endangered species?

I know that there are some species of redwood trees that were considered endangered (eg, the "Dawn Redwood").

Wonder what Mr. Solar would have to do with his panels if the tree won? Store them "where the sun don't shine"?

I seriously hope ya'll are

I seriously hope ya'll are saving some of these freeze-frames of Katie Couric with that "Greener Than Thou" inset- you could post them again years from now when it is discovered how much of a fad this whole thing was, so the world could have a good laugh. 

 

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Grizzly Bear '08

Wind Turbines vs. Open Space

Wind Turbines vs. Open Space (or Kennedy's view)
Trees vs. Solar Panels

I love it when liberal environmentalists are faced with politically correct dilemmas...

Hopefully the trees in

Hopefully the trees in question were California Redwoods or some endangered species.  Anybody got a pair of spotted owls to lend the homeowner?  An expanded environmental impact statement could take a couple of decades to resolve.

"Fighters are fun but bombers make policy"

→ Come to Texas

For those companies who don't feel like paying Los Angeles' proposed Global Warming Tax might I suggest you relocate to Texas.

Isn't it about time businesses make some practical decisions?

♣ a seal