Salon.com blogger and author Glenn Greenwald is unlikely to become a fan of former Vice President Dick Cheney, safe to say.
But Greenwald's loathing for Cheney occasionally gets the better of him, as occurred on MSNBC's "The Rachel Maddow Show" Wednesday night.
Maddow and Greenwald were discussing news of Cheney warning that President Obama risks letting terrorists strike with a biological or nuclear weapon if Obama reverses Bush-era policies for combating al Qaeda.
Greenwald compared protective measures ordered by Bush and Cheney after 9/11 to the worst civil liberties abuses in our nation's past (follow this link for video of the segment) --
And I think what's so vital to point out is that if you look at American history, the most disgraceful and regrettable acts, the acts that most people consider to be quite awful that we've done in our history, haven't been because we've been insufficiently aggressive about dealing with external threats, it's been the opposite, because we've allowed the government to exaggerate external threats and drive us to embrace very radical overreactions, whether it's the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II or the McCarthyite witch hunts of the 1950s or the censorship laws in the late 18th century or even at the end of World War I, it's Dick Cheney fear-mongering that has driven us to do the things that we end up regret doing and it's the responsibility of the citizenry not to let a government do that.
In other words, with Greenwald's first example above in mind, the United States had been sufficiently "aggressive" in thwarting "external threats" when President Franklin Roosevelt rounded up Japanese-Americans? At least this is what I think Greenwald is saying, as I cut my way through the thicket of his lawyerly discourse.
But as Greenwald is surely aware, Executive Order 9,066 mandating the internment was signed by FDR in February 1942 -- only the three months after the sudden Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor and an ill-prepared United States became a combatant in World War II.
To suggest the US was sufficiently "aggressive" in defending itself from "external threats" in late 1941 is preposterous. Looking back at what occurred between Pearl Harbor and Roosevelt's executive order shows how preposterous.
Within days of decimating the US Pacific Fleet at Oahu, Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong, the Philippines, Guam and Wake Island. On Dec. 10, Japanese warplanes sank the new British battleship Prince of Wales and battlecruiser Repulse in two hours ("In all the war," Churchill later wrote, "I never received a more direct shock").
That same day, Japanese forces landed in Malaya and the Philippines. By Christmas, the British at Hong Kong had fallen, Guam and Wake Island were lost, and Japanese forces were advancing toward Singapore, with its immense harbor situated astride one of the most strategic shipping lanes in the world.
On Feb. 15, the British surrendered Singapore and 130,000 troops were taken captive, the single most catastrophic defeat in British history. In the Philippines, American and Filipino forces held out a few months longer. Tens of thousands eventually perished in Japanese captivity from wounds, abuse and neglect.
Most of what I've described occurred between Pearl Harbor and Roosevelt ordering the internment of Japanese-Americans.This was the chilling context in which FDR made his decision. And according to Greenwald, not only had the US been sufficiently "aggressive" in countering "external threats," Roosevelt's government also chose to "exaggerate" the threat from Japan. Which leads to an inevitable question -- how would it be possible to exaggerate a succession of such devastating news?
And Greenwald is stating this in the context of his criticism of Bush-Cheney policies in the War on Terror, implying here as well that the US was sufficiently "aggressive" in countering "external threats" leading up to the cataclysm that gave rise to these policies -- 9/11.
For Greenwald, in other words, it is only acceptable for the United States to become sufficiently aggressive toward external threats after we've been attacked. Bush and Cheney, on the other hand, don't have to get sucker-punched more than once to appreciate the need for avoiding this to begin with.
Maddow presumably doesn't part company with Greenwald over whether the US was sufficiently vigilant against external threats prior to Pearl Harbor and 9/11, since she didn't challenge him on it. And her introduction of Greenwald could hardly have been more appropriate, considering what he was about to say. After playing clips of Cheney's remarks, Maddow repeatedly took megaphone in hand and pronounced in mock terror,"They will slaughter us all!"
Where have I seen this before, I wondered. Then it came to me -- back in 2000, the September-October issue of Mother Jones magazine and its cover story, "The Phantom Menace." And the external threat Mother Jones was confident did not exist? "A doomsday attack by foreign terrorists."




















Editor at Large
Comments Policy
MSNBS
February 8, 2009 - 13:15 ET by jdubyaThis is what happens when the average idiot wants to view a perceived section of society rather than get the facts. I have listened to Maddow only in small amounts, just as I do to Blabbering Olberman. They are both retards with little tangeable intellect. But this is what happens when you apply social engineering, tolerance, and affirmative protocols to a free market structure- crappy journalism that is more aesthetics and appearance, mixed with cliches and dribble.
Having access to these communication networks is not free and simple, as me starting up my own blog to dispense my own brand of thought. This is costly stuff; all that makeup to spackle maddow's hideous maw, the right gloss of shellac for Keith's Kwaf (sp), high priced suits, and a flashy stage set for each idiot to feel important.
Now all of us get a bunch of these crap channels when we purchase cable or sattelite programming. But here is an idea that I think will literally prove the point:
In these critical times of financial uncertainty, and in an effort for cable companies to hone in on the right markets, they should break these news companies into individual purchases.
This would mean that you select all or a few of these networks, say FOX, CNN, ABC, etc. Each one is a monthly fee, say $1.
It will provide some interesting things:
People will buy the SERVICE they support. Adding more value and credibility to their products.
Advertising will improve. Tired of seeing Billy Mays all the time?
Services will improve as cable companies know what is making them $$$ and what is making sense.
Shareholders in these companies will also see improved dividends, or else the Board Members will be bagging groceries.
People like Olbermann, Matthews, Couric, etc. will be seeking new business opportunities in the janitorial or colostomy bag testing industries. Guaranteed.
Bad Side:
Typical Liberal Meltdown. You think talk radio was the bain on Liberal Radio? I will bet dollars to donuts that Liberal Cable Programs would also go the way of the dodo.
Fairness Doctirne applied to Cable?
That is my bet.
Or better yet, maybe we should have these people tested in civics, history, logic, legal issues. Most of these hacks are just faces that have wormed their way up the food chain through attrition or fellating.
Mr. Bill
February 8, 2009 - 17:50 ET by thebutlerdiditThe sad part is, Rachel Maddow is well-educated. She matriculated at an Ivy league school, and went on to be a Rhodes Scholar. Of course, this is where she formed her views, and she lets her political ideology get in the way of seeing what is the truth. She is a person of obvious low self-esteem, and that, I think, is what drives her to say what she does. She likes being on tv. She likes her big paycheck, She is more than willing to follow party line in her radio program, and in her tv show. It is really all about her.
All a Democrat needs is the upper-story window of public attention and the chamber pot of rhetoric. How else to explain the rise of Joe Biden? P.J. O' Rourke
Curious
February 8, 2009 - 13:22 ET by klchadwickI'm ery curious about something here. Greenwald stated that after the first WTC bombing in 1993 and Clinton decided on how to prosecute, there weren't any more attacks on the US during his administration. Huh? What about:
1995 bombing of US run Military Training Center in Saudi Arabia (five Americans killed)
1996 bombing of Khobar Towers which housed US military personnel in Saudi Arabia (nineteen Americans killed over 300 more wounded)
1998 bombins of US Embassies in Nariobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam (Two hundred and twenty four killed and five thousand wounded)
October 2000 bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen (seventeen sailors killed and 37 more wounded)
So there were no further attacks, huh? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading this stuff! (those were just the ones I could think of off the top of my head....maybe there's more?)
i THINK he meant
February 8, 2009 - 13:39 ET by ironchefofmunchiesThat there were no more attacks INSIDE the U.S. after the first WTC attack in 1995.
The rest were all on overseas targets.
Just shows that Greenwald learned that you always place a kernal of truth in a lie if you want people to accept it. It's basic Propaganda 101.
Greenwald just let his racism peek out with that statement
February 8, 2009 - 13:42 ET by ironchefofmunchiesExcept of course for the attack on the Branch Davidians in Waco-but since it was the government carrying out that attack (instead of terrrorists) that probably makes it ok.
I'm not sure why Greenwald doesn't count the Oklahoma City bombing as a "terrorist" attack though. Unless Greenwald ONLY CONSIDERS MUSLIM ATTACKS TO BE 'TERRORIST ATTACKS'?
Even if that's what he meant
February 8, 2009 - 16:56 ET by ArminiusMr. Lispy has apparently forgotten that the 9/11 Commission determined that 9/11 was planned during the latter months of 1998 and the early months of 1999 (i.e., at the very same time Clinton launched a preemptive attack on Iraq and an illegal war of choice on Kosovo). The 9/11 pilots were in this country before Bush was even sworn in as president.
So, obviously, Clinton's law enforcement route was not effective in stopping terrorism. In addition, one terrorist from the first WTC bombing fled to Iraq and was never prosecuted.
If the Dems dismantle our
February 8, 2009 - 13:36 ET by dscottIf the Dems dismantle our protections, the GOP needs to go on the offensive by saying at the first domestic terrorist attack it will introduce an impeachment resolution against Obama for malfeasance in office. When the Dems block that resolution, the GOP then should proceed to try Obama in the court of public opinion. When the public gets upset enough, Pelosi and Reid will run for cover and toss Obama under the bus.
Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
what was the worst US defeat then?
February 8, 2009 - 13:47 ET by ironchefofmunchiesAs a student of history I was wondering after reading about the surrender of Singapore being the worst defeat in British history, what would "the worst defeat in US history" be?
We hear alot about Pearl Harbor and the destruction of the Pacific battleship fleet, but the carriers survived and the death toll was 3,000 sailors-which while tragic is hardly a catastrophe in terms of war.
So what would the "worst' US defeat be then? The surrender in the Philipeans in 1942? Or am I missing an obvious one here.
ICOM
Some folks in my neighborhood
February 8, 2009 - 14:08 ET by dervishwould say "Gettysburg."
"Liberals have many tails, and chase them all." H.L. Mencken
True
February 8, 2009 - 14:23 ET by ironchefofmunchiesLOL. True-just about any battle in the Civil War would probably qualify-especially one like Antiem.
From Dallas here-you?
...
February 8, 2009 - 15:10 ET by dervishJawja.
"Liberals have many tails, and chase them all." H.L. Mencken
As of 1942, it was Pearl Harbor
February 8, 2009 - 14:26 ET by Jack ColemanAs of today, 9/11
Interesting question
February 8, 2009 - 15:33 ET by KC MulvilleIf it's sheer numbers, you'd answer one way. If it's military or strategic importance, it'd be another way. It's a measure of what you measure.
The curious thing, of course, is that the war we "lost" (Vietnam) featured the biggest setback (the Tet Offensive) ... but we won that battle.
It's so hard to answer historically. The success or defeat on the battlefield is always relative to the political effect that follows, and especially to the public confidence. Pearl Harbor was devastating, moreso than 9/11 in my opinion, because in 9/11 no one believed that the attack would cause us to surrender to anyone; but in Pearl Harbor, people were legitimately afraid that the Japanese might force America to surrender. But by that standard, history would probably judge the Revolutionary War to have more damaging defeats, because the defeats led much of the public to question whether the nation could survive. Same for 1812.
We've been lucky, haven't we? Almost every other country in the world has been conquered at one time or another, except us. (OK, Canada, too, and probably you could count Australia - but they depend on whether you count them as part of the Brtisih Empire at any given time.)
I'd have to say that the
February 8, 2009 - 17:57 ET by ironchefofmunchiesI'd have to say that the British burning the capitol during the War of 1812 would have to be in the top 3, if not #1.
You don't get a much bigger defeat than that (unless you're counting by dead soldiers).
what was the worst US defeat then?
February 8, 2009 - 13:48 ET by ironchefofmunchiesdupe post
It's all dick to Biden
February 8, 2009 - 14:06 ET by Jack BauerMORE
"It will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama ... Remember I said it standing here if you don't remember anything else I said. Watch, we're gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis...
"I can give you at least four or five scenarios from where it might originate ... and (the actions Obama takes) it's not gonna be apparent initially, it's not gonna be apparent that (he's) right."
Dick Cheney, Oct 19, 2008... oh I'm sorry, I meant JOE BIDEN, Oct 19, 2008
It's called Covering Your
February 8, 2009 - 14:24 ET by ironchefofmunchiesIt's called Covering Your A*s 101.
Now Biden will say "see, i told you so"
We should be grateful that
February 8, 2009 - 14:51 ET by eaglewingz08We should be grateful that Greenhorn didn't mention the Oklahoma City bombing and Maddow is too stupid to remember it. If they had they both would have dismissed islamofascism and claimed the only real threat to the US comes from committed Christians (because they would repeat the lie that the Oklahoma bombers were evangelical christians and then go into abortion clinic attacks which stopped about ten years ago as well and would then go into the false black church burnings and then repeat the Byrd and Matthew Shepherd's deaths) but would not dare focus on the real groups that have committed tens of thousands of attacks during the past ten years in the name of the Caliphate.
Hmm..
February 8, 2009 - 17:23 ET by Sergeant ROCK.. is that a brown shirt that he's wearing?
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012