It's no secret that women's magazines promote liberal agendas but "Glamour" magazine's March issue features a blatant abortion propaganda piece.
Billed as "The Serious Health Discussion Women Aren't Talking About," the article attempted to go beyond the political aspect of the abortion debate and delve into the personal side of the issue. The sub-head stated, "Whether you're pro-life or pro-choice, now is the time for more openness and understanding."
Author Liz Welch wrote, "Every woman who faces that abortion decision deserves a friend's arms around her - as well as factual, unbiased information about what lies ahead. Let the plainspoken stories and advice on these pages open the dialogue."
The stories and advice are clear: abortion is an a-ok option.
For starters, the article featured no women who chose to carry their pregnancies to term despite difficult circumstances such as health risks, likelihood of birth defects, bad timing or lousy relationships.
The 10 personal stories highlighted throughout the piece all centered around women who chose abortion. One woman told "Glamour" that she had "no guilt" after her abortion. Another, who is currently pregnant, said she doesn't "have any regrets" about her two abortions. Yet another said she is "wistful about losing the physical sensation of being pregnant" and that she and her husband "want to have a baby one day - but it will be planned."
Only four women featured acknowledged the emotional fallout from their abortions. One told "Glamour" she felt "like a murderer" after aborting her pregnancy for health reasons and admitted that "emotionally, it was hell." Welch briefly related how another woman's two abortions led to drug abuse, depression and regrets. It was through an "abortion recovery bible study" that she "came to a place of acceptance."
Welch set the tone of her piece by describing 25-year-old Anna's abortion experience. Afterward, Welch wrote that Anna smiled "a bit" and said, "That was not nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be."
Dr. Deborah Oyer, who performed Anna's abortion, told Welch, "I hear that refrain almost daily when I perform abortions. It's as if women expect me to come at them with whirling knives."
Oyer also portrayed pro-life activists as hypocrites."I've seen every type of woman in my office, from Catholics to Muslims to mothers with three kids," she said. "I've even seen someone I recognized - because I'd seen her before, protesting outside my clinic."
Welch noted that many organizations offer counseling for women who are thinking about abortion or who would like to talk about their experiences with abortion. However, Welch failed to disclose that these organizations, Backline, Hope Clinic, Faith Aloud and Exhale, appear to have close ties to abortion activists groups. Each organization provides links to chapters of Planned Parenthood, the nation's largest abortion provider.
Welch might have mentioned Care-Net, "the largest network of pregnancy centers in North America," an organization that that seeks to help women through unplanned pregnancies. Among post-abortive organizations, she might have listed Rachel's Vineyard, a ministry of Priests for Life that hosts weekend retreats for women and men to work through their post-abortive feelings.
"Glamour" has a pattern of simply accepting the agenda of abortion supporters. Back in October 2008, "Glamour" interviewed presidential candidates Barack Obama and John McCain about their stances on various issues, including abortion. McCain was grilled about his pro-life stance in the following questions:
I want to ask about reproductive rights. Twenty-three percent of your pro-choice female supporters believe that you are for a woman's right to choose abortion, which is not accurate. Can you explain your position on abortion? Do you believe Roe v. Wade should be overturned?
If Roe v. Wade were overturned and the decision went back to the states, and some of the states criminalized abortion, in the case that an abortion is performed, who should go to jail, if anyone?
Last year you said that the Republican platform on abortion should change so that it did include an exception for cases of rape and incest and to save the life of the mother ... Is that still something that you believe?
Would you encourage that platform to be changed this summer at the convention?
One reader noted that you've called abortion a "human tragedy," and you've proposed strengthening organizations that provide services and support to pregnant mothers in need. If elected president, do you have a specific plan to do that?
Obama, who supports abortion, got these softballs:
Is support for Roe v. Wade a litmus test for you in appointing a Supreme Court justice?
I read that 51 percent of women in battleground states say they don't know enough about John McCain's position on abortion to decide if they agree with them. Will you be publicizing his views?
Post-abortive women should be able to talk about their experience and should be treated with compassion, as Welch notes repeatedly in her article. But compassion can be found in pro-life organizations as well as those with pro-choice ties.
And if "Glamour" was serious about "opening the dialogue," about abortion, it might have given at least some space to the blessings that can result from an unexpected pregnancy.
"Glamour" shortchanged its readers by only providing one side of this issue.
—Colleen Raezler is a research assistant at the Culture and Media Institute




















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Comments Policy
My skin is crawling at the
February 12, 2009 - 14:53 ET by HockeyKidMy skin is crawling at the "doctor's" remark about whirling knives. I guess he just can't imagine that a woman might consider things from the baby's perspective.
"Beauty is only skin deep, but liberal's to the bone." - me
Romancing the Curette
February 12, 2009 - 14:59 ET by allanfIt is not Pro-Choice. It is Pro-Abortion. These people want to romanticize it.
We, as the adult---
February 12, 2009 - 15:05 ET by misterbillWe, as the adult--- members of our species have the responsibility of protecting our young- for many reasons. I do not believe that because we are an "enlightened" society that gives us the right to use murder as a method of preventting birth.
If abortion was a-ok
February 12, 2009 - 15:33 ET by Southern voterthen why do you suppose these magazines or Planned Parenthood never prints any graphics or pictures to show exactly what happens to these tiny babies during an abortion ....the pictures where the doctor takes all the little pieces and places them on a side table like a puzzel to make sure he (the murderer) has removed everything from the babies mother...
Society accepts the most detailed graphics and pictures of every part of a man or womens' body in order to sell magazines and to fund the porn industry but how many people that fight for 'a womens right to choose' have ever actually googeled 'abortion pictures'...Until we all see abortion ...abortion will never end...show these same women pictures of what happened to their baby and then ask them if it is still a-ok !!!
Southern Voter--
February 12, 2009 - 15:53 ET by misterbillYou are right--we hide our hiorrific sins behind a curtain. As a free society, (so far), we then sit and discuss issues without the evidence in front of us.
I am one of thsoe who , in spite of many years on this planet, is still so highly impressed with the miracle of birth that it adds to my belief in a Supreme Being.
Where's all the gore from
February 12, 2009 - 16:55 ET by guttermouthWhere's all the gore from the Iraq war then?
guttermouth
February 12, 2009 - 17:03 ET by misterbillSorry --I cannot play today. My horrorscope told me to avoid people like you---------
Fine, you have no answer.
February 12, 2009 - 17:08 ET by guttermouthFine, you have no answer. You could have just said that.
gutter-
February 12, 2009 - 17:20 ET by misterbillReally -- you should try to control that "get the last word" impulse that you have. This is mine on this subject.
"I have no answer." (For you!)
Ta!
Hey, I can understand your
February 12, 2009 - 17:23 ET by guttermouthHey, I can understand your embarrassment for being called out for this, but seriously - what's the difference? Why should they have to show aborted fetuses and not show all the dead bodies in Iraq? It's an honest question based on your comments.
Honest answer--
February 12, 2009 - 17:42 ET by misterbillI agree.
They should show one if they show the other. I do see a difference in that the death of our soldiers in Iraq is the result of an honest and honorable effort on their part. They died fighting for what most of us believe has been an honorable cause, (as witness the second round of free elections in Iraq recently). Being the sort of person that I am, even in the privacy of my home, I would stand as a matter of respect for our fallen warriors if it was presented on public television. They have my love and respect.
The deaths of the fetuses, on the other hand, is the result of a dishonorable act by those who have no respect for life. People whose bacchanalian life styles and loose code of morals allows them to use murder to resolve an accidental pregnancy after a session of unguarded personal satisfaction.
I trust you see the difference.
We live in an electronic world where simulated death and destruction is seen and participated in daily. The dulling of our senses, (niot mine), to the reality of death and pain is the result of that (over)exposure. As a result, this old man believes that those who wilfully participate in such an event should have the privilege of seeing, in real life, so to speak and with real victims, the results of those choices.
PS Thank you for being embarrassed for me. I hadn't noticed that I was.
Okay, but there's more than
February 12, 2009 - 17:49 ET by guttermouthOkay, but there's more than the death of American soldiers that the media won't show. How about the 90,000 or so dead Iraqi civilians? Seems that the fewer we know about, the easier it is to ignore.
Gutter
February 12, 2009 - 18:12 ET by NorthCoasterWhat was the carnage of human destruction from the reign of Saddam and his son's? Do those people count?
NC... That never matters
February 12, 2009 - 18:14 ET by bigtimerNC...
That never matters to the left...they always just skip right over little facts like that.
tinytime
February 12, 2009 - 19:04 ET by guttermouthDo people read the entire thread or just the last entry? The simple point I was trying to make, which was in response to señor bill's post, is if it's okay to show the gore of an aborted fetus to make a point, why then isn't it okay to show the gore of the Iraq war? My comment has nothing to do wanting America to look bad or trying to open a dialogue about the war. I'm guessing this site is 100% pro war anyway, so it's not a discussion I feel like getting into today.
But as usual I'm happy to take on any attacks you people have for me. I especially like the names like little one, buttermouth, and the fact that no one here even knows if I'm a guy or a girl, black or white. And I really love it when you guys say things like I'm getting spanked, smacked, stomped...whatever makes your day I guess.
~Question
February 12, 2009 - 19:11 ET by choselife3xBy 'gore of the Iraq war', do you mean the injuries caused by suicide bombers, car bombs, roadside bombs, vidoes of people being beheaded by Islamic fundamentalists, or just injuries caused 'our side'?
(in the interests of full disclosure, I did not want us to invade Iraq at the time)
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Holy #$%^#%$ SH*T!!!
February 12, 2009 - 19:20 ET by guttermouthKnockedup3x and I agree on something! See, we can be friends after all!
Look, there are a lot of casualties from the war. Yes, suicide bombers, car bombs, roadside bombs, crazy f#@king Iraqi insurgents, insane Al Qaeda jihadists, AND friendly US fire have killed 90,000 Iraqi citizens. It's a simple point I've been trying to make - that it's much easier to pretend that it's not happening when we don't have to see news coverage of it. And (sigh) fine, same goes for dead babies.
Just freakin' perfect
February 12, 2009 - 19:32 ET by BlondeWhine on, gutter.
I especially like the names like little one, buttermouth, and the fact that no one here even knows if I'm a guy or a girl, black or white.
And in response, you post "Knockedup3x".
You are too pathetic for words. You're the first one here to sling around names and accusations, yet YOU PROTEST SO LOUDLY when other posters do the same to you.
I could hardly care less who are what you are....other than an annoying pimple on the boards.
We need a better class of troll, here. ©
Oh Blondie
February 12, 2009 - 20:02 ET by guttermouthI see you're still upset about yesterday. Get over it. Obviously you care a whole lot about me. Otherwise you wouldn't be responding to all of my posts. Geez, what day was it last week where you raced around to every post I made just so you could be the first to talk trash? Mature.
What on earth are blathering about?
February 12, 2009 - 20:25 ET by BlondeGet a grip, trollboy.
BTW....your continued cries about me chasing you are patently silly.....I'll call your stupid troll butt any time I see fit.
So keep up the whining...it's sooooooo cute.
You confuse me, guttemouth
February 12, 2009 - 19:34 ET by CobraManYou confuse me, guttermouth. You seem to display genuine concern for innocent civilians who have been killed in Iraq, and I commend you for that but you don't show any concern for the 35 MILLION, or more, innocent babies that have been aborted in America over the last 40 years. Where's your concern for those innocent babies? Do you even have any concern for the innocent lives that have been lost to abortions?
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
That's easy, Cobra
February 12, 2009 - 19:49 ET by BlondeBabies don't count in the liberal mind.
Never mind that they are the most innocent of the innocent.
It's the same old...some sort of "moral equivalency".
Liberals are dumber than a box of hammers....as this gutter thing continues to display on a daily basis.
This is just a subject you
February 12, 2009 - 20:00 ET by guttermouthThis is just a subject you and I disagree on. Think of me what you will, but I don't feel the same as you do about abortion. I don't see the problem with an abortion during early parts of the term. It takes 21 days for the heart to begin beating. 40 days for brain activity. I see no problem with abortions up to this point. It's 20 weeks before the fetus can survive outside the mother. I don't support abortion as birth control, I don't support late term abortions. And I certainly don't support telling a woman what she can do with her body. I know the counter argument is that the fetus is not part of her body, but that's an opinion I disagree with.
You don't see, period.
February 12, 2009 - 20:15 ET by CobraManYou don't see that they are human. That's the problem, guttermouth. When you ignore someone's humanity, the decision to kill them is very easy, isn't it?
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
guttertroll
February 12, 2009 - 20:27 ET by lotrIf the fetus is a part of her body, then just exactly what part is it?
Gosh, all that biology and anatomy that I learned in college, for the life of me (no pun intended) I don't remember ever hearing about the "temporary fetal organ" in women.
Sorry, but it's not a matter of opinion. A fetus/embyro is a separate individual human being, albeit at a very early stage of development, one that is distinct from either of the parents.
And sorry, but you can also tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her body, especially when that "telling her what to do" is simply to do nothing. Pregnancy is a natural organic forcing -- I know propagandists like you like to make it sound otherwise, but sorry, men didn't invent pregnancy. Ashley Judd wants to tell Sarah Palin that she cannot use her hands to pick up a gun, and her finger to pull the trigger to kill wolves. There is no universal moral principle that says "Thou shalt not restrain others from killing others."
And one by one dropped the revellers in the blood-bedewed halls of their revel, and died each in the despairing posture of his fall. -- Edgar Allan Poe
Except the US SUPREME
February 12, 2009 - 21:59 ET by guttermouthExcept the US SUPREME F@#KING COURT!!!
Keep trying to change everyone's minds on this issue. You'll never have your way.
"Respect maah authoritah!"
February 12, 2009 - 22:47 ET by lotrNo shit, Sherlock. Tell us something we don't know. We are all painfully aware that in AD 1973, an oligarchy decided for We the People. Well, golly, it must be so -- the SCOTUS decided it! Two words in response to this sophism: Dred Scott.
But perhaps guttermouth is right about abortion-on-demand being here to stay. I'm not God. Maybe we will always be "blessed" with legal abortions by the tens of millions. I don't take it for granted otherwise, as there has always been atrocities and injustices in this world. But, regardless if it were true that "we'll never have our way," and regardless if it pisses likes of guttermouth off (judging by his tone), I (and millions of others) will indeed continue to try to change minds and hearts on this issue by exposing it, one soul at a time.
And as a final note, for someone who likes to stomp around here "calling people out," I'm frankly dissappointed in guttermouth's inability to engage intellectually.
And one by one dropped the revellers in the blood-bedewed halls of their revel, and died each in the despairing posture of his fall. -- Edgar Allan Poe
~So
February 12, 2009 - 19:50 ET by choselife3xHow many innocent civilians died in, say, the Vietnam war? How do the numbers for previous wars (WWI and II) compare to the Iraq war? Did the US do a *comparatively* good job at limiting civilian casualties in this war?
Also, how many innocent Iraqi civilians were being murdered every year by Saddam's regime?
(I'd Google it, but I'm a STARK RAVING homophobe.)
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
gm: I'd think the difference
February 12, 2009 - 19:29 ET by QueenMumgm: I'd think the difference should be obvious. But if one ascribes to the pro-choice point of view, I imagine it's hard to understand. War is hell. No one can deny that in war innocents are killed. But the purpose of war is different from the purpose of abortion. And the American military does not seek to purposely kill innocent civilians, as do the likes of the Taliban and alQaeda. And the pro-choice argument is that the unborn child is not a person and therefore we should not be concerned about its death. In war, we realize that the innocents who may be killed are persons and we mourn their loss. In the case of abortion, pro-choice advocates do not mourn the loss of a life. In fact, they're more concerned about the social and emotional well-being of the mother who will go on with her own life after her child is disposed of. That's the way I see it. But since you like to deal in moral equivalency, I'm sure you won't be satisfied with my response. That's okay. Others may better be able to provide you with the debate you seek.
While I agree with most of
February 12, 2009 - 19:29 ET by guttermouthWhile I agree with most of what you're saying, I still have to disagree with your broadness of war. This being such a controversial war, based on false intelligence, and a whole lot of bullsh*t sold to us by the government (both sides, from everyone who voted for this war), is not a typical war. Most of the world was against the invasion. Even most of our allied armies have since left Iraq. We were promised things about this war that never happened, and now we're stuck spending stimulus package-type dollars on the war.
What it comes down to is the purpose of THIS war, against a country, as it turned out, that wasn't a threat to US. Those 90,000 had no choice in this either.
gm: Stay tuned. I'm
February 12, 2009 - 19:46 ET by QueenMumgm: Stay tuned. I'm confident that sometime in the near future, you and other doubters will be convinced that the war in Iraq had a purpose. Not just to free a people from tyranny, but to establish conditions which will weaken the influence of Islamo-Fascists in the region. I'm sure you've been exposed to point-by-point arguments of your assertions re: "false" intelligence (there's a difference between "false" and inaccurate) and b.s. Iraq was just as much a threat as any other dictatorship that has declared its hatred for America. If you think that Saddam was just blowing smoke, you've forgotten or ignored some recent history. There were no other attacks on American soil after 9/11. G.W. Bush kept America safe as he promised he would. I choose to conclude that he knew what he was doing when he chose to go into Iraq. But if you choose to ascribe to the belief that we should wait until the enemy is in our own backyard, then you won't be convinced of the purpose of the Iraq war.
The pre-war setup never
February 12, 2009 - 20:16 ET by guttermouthThe pre-war setup never mentioned freeing their people from tyranny. No one ever mentioned Islamo-fascists. If I'm wrong I'm sure you can provide some reputable backup to this argument. I'm also aware that Bush 41 as well as Clinton agreed that Saddam needed to go. Not arguing that here.
However, when you say Bush kept us safe after 9/11, you act as if we were constantly being attacked by foreign terrorists on a regular basis. Do you know how many foreign terrorist attacks there were on the US before 9/11?
Do you know which terrorist plots Bush stopped? Is it at all possible that given the number of attacks on the US in the past that the reason we haven't been attacked since 9/11 could actually be that no attacks have been planned?
Yes, it was
February 12, 2009 - 20:49 ET by CobraMan"The pre-war setup never mentioned freeing their people from tyranny."
Yes, it did. You just don't want to admit it.
Gore, Clinton, Kerry, and many other Democrats all described Saddam as a tyrant and all stated their desire to free the Iraqi people from Saddam's tyranny. They just wanted to use a different method other than an invasion of Iraq.
But not even a tyrant like Saddam allowed 35 MILLION of his own citizens to be nonchalantly killed while in the womb.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
Yes, we do
February 12, 2009 - 21:20 ET by CobraMan"Do you know how many foreign terrorist attacks there were on the US before 9/11?"
Yes, we do, and so do you. The FIRST Trade Tower attack in 1993 was just one of them. There were several others, as you well know.
So, I wonder what your point really is? Do you believe that a few attacks is ok, as long as only 5 or 6 people die? Or do you believe that ANY attack is wrong, and that we need to do something to stop those attacks before they can occur?
So, tell me, guttermout, what the hell is your point?
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
My point is, Bush sure blew
February 12, 2009 - 22:10 ET by guttermouthMy point is, Bush sure blew it on that one, huh? If your argument is that he kept us safe after 9/11, you are directly implying that he DIDN'T keep us safe ON 9/11. That was a pretty big deal, don't you think? A pretty big day not to be keeping us safe, you know???
strawman argument gutter -
February 12, 2009 - 22:31 ET by Dee Bunkmedia and libs went nutzo on Afghanistan and Iraq and the Patriot act after 9/11 - what do you think they would have done before 9/11? Clinton and the media never let anyone know the extent of the danger.
Are you stupid?
February 12, 2009 - 23:06 ET by CobraManAre you stupid? How could have Bush stopped that attack? The laws PREVENTED the free flow of information between the various investigation and enforcement agencies that would have lead to the discovery of the impending attack. It wasn't until AFTER 9/11 that Bush was given the tools necessary to keep another attack from happening.
You're about as on target with THIS argument as you are about the abortion argument, you keep shooting yourself in the foot. That's GOT to hurt!
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
What laws CobraMan? And
February 12, 2009 - 23:23 ET by JerWhat laws CobraMan? And if there were such laws, why did neither the Republican majorities in Congress nor the Bush administration seek to change the law--particularly after the repeated warnings of escalated terrorist activity in early 2001 and continuing through the summer prior to 9/11?
Jer
Read the 9/11 Commission Report
February 12, 2009 - 23:29 ET by CobraManRead the 9/11 Commission Report. It's all detailed in that report. Then you come back and tell me which laws I am referring too, ok?
As to why Bush didn't change the laws, He wasn't in office long and he couldn't get the Democrats concerned enough to act. Those laws were all enacted when the DEMOCRATS were in the majority and Clinton was President. Don't try to lay the blame on Bush, it wasn't his fault.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
I have read the Commission Report. Have you?
February 12, 2009 - 23:58 ET by JerI have read the Commission Report. Have you? Why is it my obligation to guess at which laws you have in mind? I'm not interested in playing "I've Got A Secret" about some mysterious legislation enacted in the first two years of the Clinton presidency. State your case.
Jer
Yes, I have
February 13, 2009 - 00:23 ET by CobraManAnd if you can't see the evidence presented in that report, them you're ether blind or are refusing to accept the truth. Ether way, it doesn't matter, because at this point, Bush is no longer in office, we haven't had another attack since 9/11 and abortions (you know, the original topic) STILL occur without restraint, just like they did before 9/11.
You're strawman argument is burning, I suggest you just walk away before you get scorched.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
Scorched? Funny, I don't
February 13, 2009 - 00:33 ET by JerScorched? Funny, I don't feel any heat. Sounds like you're strong on allegations--weak on proof.
Jer
And impervious
February 13, 2009 - 00:41 ET by CobraManAnd I'm impervious to non-relevancy. Try as you might, Jer, but I'm not going to play your game. Blame Bush all you want, it doesn't matter to me at all. I'm tired of arguing the point.
Thanks for playing "What Topic is it Anyways." Your consolation prize is awaiting you backstage. Have a nice day.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
Don't want to "play"?
February 13, 2009 - 22:56 ET by JerDon't want to "play"? That's your prerogative. But, with respect to the topic, for the record, I merely responded to your assertions.
Anyway, nice dancing, Mr. Astaire....You may keep my prize.
Jer
Cobra gave me the same
February 13, 2009 - 17:21 ET by guttermouthCobra gave me the same answer: none.
35 MILLION
February 12, 2009 - 19:47 ET by CobraMan"Those 90,000 had no choice in this either."
But the mothers of the 35 MILLION who aborted their babies DID have a choice. They could have kept the babies. Those babies weren't the victims of "collateral damage." They weren't the victims of "friendly fire." The weren't the victims of terrorist attacks. They weren't even enemy solders killed in battle. And they were not a threat to anyone. How can you compare the situation in Iraq with abortion?
35 MILLION Americans killed by their own mothers, legally! Let that number sink in a little bit, guttermouth. Then come back at tell me about the moral comparison between the Iraq war and abortion.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
Hahahahaha
February 12, 2009 - 22:05 ET by guttermouth35 Legally - now think about all the illegal, back alley, coat hanger abortions!
My comparison still stands as strong as when I first posted it. Showing gore to deter people from having abortions is the same as the government keeping the Iraq War images away from us. If dead Iraqis and dead soldiers were shown on the news every day like they are in the mideast, you can damn bet a whole lot of americans would start to think twice about it.
Whice was illegal
February 12, 2009 - 22:31 ET by CobraMan"35 Legally - now think about all the illegal, back alley, coat hanger abortions!"
Yo may have forgotten, but he doctors who perform those abortions were put in prison for MURDER. Just how many of those abortions were performed and how many women died during the procedure? Just how many MURDERS of this type actually occurred?
Now, compare that to the 35 MILLION human beings that were "legally" killed by abortions since 1975." Tell me, guttermouth, how can ANYONE justify the killing of 35 million babies over a 40 year period?
"Showing gore to deter people from having abortions is the same as the government keeping the Iraq War images away from us."
Your analogy is FALSE! Abortion has NOTHING to do with war, you twit! We already know that war is ugly and that people die. The difference is that mother's don't travel to a war zone and kill their own children on the battlefield! Releasing those photographs won't stop a mother from doing something she wasn't doing in the first place! All it will do is increase her grief.
Now. compare that to what happens when photographs are released about the INHUMANE treatment of animals. Public opposition to that inhumane treatment grows quickly to the point that this treatment STOPS and those responsible for that inhumane treatment usually ends up in jail, correct?
THAT is what would happen if people actually seen the inhumane treatment babies receive from doctors, those who are supposed to SAVE lives, when they are WILLINGLY aborted BY THEIR OWN MOTHER.
Abortion is not only immoral, it is INHUMANE! We treat our FOOD SOURCES better than we treat an aborted fetus. What does that say about those, like yourself, who support aborting an innocent human child?
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
The fact that women acted like whores and took
February 14, 2009 - 22:03 ET by thebutlerdiditclothes hangers to themselves is supposed to be an excuse for having legal murder? GMAFB.
All a Democrat needs is the upper-story window of public attention and the chamber pot of rhetoric. How else to explain the rise of Joe Biden? P.J. O' Rourke
coat hangers......
February 14, 2009 - 22:31 ET by porpoiseboytake that coathanger myth somewhere there are a bunch of gullible people. it ain't gonna fly here. it's been debunked too many times.
liberal = someone who's mind is so open, that their brains have fallen out.
Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left
http://www.youtube.com/wat
~PPB
February 14, 2009 - 23:24 ET by choselife3xI don't know about women doing it to themselves, I find it hard to imagine that anyone would have the *ahem* stones to do that. I do however know someone (over 70) who survived his mother's assisted attempt to abort him in that fashion.
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Little one... I read the
February 12, 2009 - 19:29 ET by bigtimerLittle one...
I read the thread.
You did what all the leftist critters do when it comes to the subject of abortion...you bring up the war, especially Iraq.
This obvious tactic is immature and getting rather old.
Continue on with your job....derail the thread.
Troll on trollster...
bigtimer
February 12, 2009 - 19:47 ET by Sergeant ROCKAnother thread hijacking?
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Howdy Rock... Hey, he's
February 12, 2009 - 19:54 ET by bigtimerHowdy Rock...
Hey, he's just doing his job....he should be getting a raise.
Answer this then. Why
February 12, 2009 - 20:03 ET by AmaliaAnswer this then. Why don't they show the carnage Saddam and his sons were responsible for?
You didn't answer it the first time because you want to make us all out to be hypocrites...we don't have control over what teh MSM shows regarding fallen soldiers or fallen civilians, and this wasn't even part of the original discussion. So it's obvious that you want to make us look bad.
My money is that you'll continue to avoid answering that question like the coward you are, while calling US cowards at the same time.
SHOW IT ALL
February 12, 2009 - 20:18 ET by guttermouthI have no problem seeing what's really happening. Do you? I'm not avoiding your question, just responding to better ones first. I'm all for seeing everything Saddam did. I'm happy we got to see his hanging (almost).
Pest.
Then show abotion
February 12, 2009 - 20:39 ET by CobraMan"I have no problem seeing what's really happening."
Then you should have no problem with showing a woman who is considering having an abortion a recorded view of an actual abortion, allowing her to see what happens to the fetus during and after the procedure, and allowing her to wait 24 hours before her abortion is performed, correct? You should have no problem with PBS showing a live abortion ether, right?
Somehow I don't think you'd like that very much.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
If she chose to watch it,
February 12, 2009 - 22:15 ET by guttermouthIf she chose to watch it, absolutely. But that's your whole problem here in the first place, right? Freedom of choice?
No, it's Liberty
February 12, 2009 - 22:53 ET by CobraManNo, my problem is a lack of Liberty. You see, a fetus has no liberty in your world. According to you abortion supporters, that innocent fetus is not a human being, and, therefor , has no rights. Not even the FATHER has rights over that innocent child, those rights are only reserved for the mother. And you don't see a problem with this?
Even our greatest enemy on the battlefield have more rights than a human fetus has right here in America. When it comes to liberty, when it comes to freedom, that fetus has NONE. THIS HAS TO END!
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
You're the one that's the
February 13, 2009 - 00:28 ET by bretzysdudeYou're the one that's the pest, b!tch.
My comment has nothing to
February 13, 2009 - 00:27 ET by bretzysdudeMy comment has nothing to do wanting America to look bad or trying to open a dialogue about the war.
Really, don't you get tired of trolling on people and getting all defensive about it? You're a broken record.
Why don't you-
February 12, 2009 - 18:26 ET by misterbillWhy don't you- get involved in what is shown on the news. I have seen quite a number of pictires and videos from around the world, of death and destruction heaped on the heeads of innocents as well as those of the predators. Did you really want to see Danie Pearl getting his head cut off?? I could not watch it, but when I was younger, I could volunteer to go over and try to slay those animals who killed him. It is known as just retribution and protection of the weak. If I had died doing so, it would not have bothered me if you viewed my casket onTV.
You are dancing your ass off here to get some kind of message across, but you are dancing so well I am focused on your feet and not on whatever point you are trying to make.
What have you ever done to protect the weak or those who have been assaulted, attacked and generally abused by terrorists??
How many of the 90,000 were killed by us?? How many by terrorists. Do you care or do you only want to hear about cases of collateral damges?? Do you want America to look bad?? Do you want us to look like aggressors , bullies, with no regard for anyone else's regard?
What the hell is your goal???
IMPORTANT: JUST THE BEGINNING
February 12, 2009 - 18:44 ET by QueenMumExcuse the interruption. When I went to the DoD website to check into statistics on the Iraq war, I found that the website has been changed dramatically. Links to info on the Iraq war used to be on the Home Page. Now there is no obvious reference to the Iraq war, photos, or statistics. The website has been dramatically revamped. Anyone who has ever accessed the website while Pres. Bush was in office should take the time to notice the changes. An obvious clue as to how the Obama administration will be handling Defense Dept. news. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Now more than ever, our military need our support. They won't be getting much from the Marxist-in-Chief, other than some misguided pity.
QM... Oh wow...now
February 12, 2009 - 18:49 ET by bigtimerQM...
Oh wow...now doesn't that just figure!
Just like them coming out today saying that the global economic war exceeds the war on the terrorists world-wide.
Lovely.
bt: The site is now so
February 12, 2009 - 19:04 ET by QueenMumbt: The site is now so disorganized and hard to navigate that one can only conclude that this is part of an effort to diminish the DoD.
Queen.... ROFLMAO! You
February 12, 2009 - 19:49 ET by bigtimerQueen....
ROFLMAO!
You got that right!
Here's the difference, guttermouth
February 12, 2009 - 19:04 ET by CobraMan"Why should they have to show aborted fetuses and not show all the dead bodies in Iraq?"
The difference is that out solders volunteer for service knowing that they may get killed in battle. But those solders do have a fighting chance. The families of those fallen solders also know that they may lose their loved ones, and the grieve when that loss occurs. Why further the grief by displaying the loss? It's not going to affect the choices of the solders, they already know they are risking thier life.
The aborted babies, on the other hand, don't have a choice. That choice is made for them. They don't have a fighting chance, none at all. The don't know whay may happen, don't know that their life is in danger. They are also killed without remorse or grief from the mother. By showing the rsults of an abortion, some other mother may think twice about kiling her baby. The child now has a chance, something that child didn't have befor.
If you can't understand the difference between the two situations, then you are truly lost.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
Clarification
February 12, 2009 - 19:07 ET by guttermouthI'm not just talking about US soldiers. 90,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed, and it's pretty safe to say they didn't have a choice either. It's something the news conveniently leaves out every day.
Who killed those civilians?
February 12, 2009 - 19:19 ET by CobraManYou asked about war dead, not those killed by terrorists. The civilians how have died were NOT killed by Americans, were not killed in an act of war. They were killed by the criminals called terrorists. What justification can you use for displaying pictures of those dead bodies? It won't stop terrorism, and it won't even end the "war."
In the abortion situation 35 MILLION babies have been killed their OWN MOTHER! That's something you conveniently left out. By showing pictures of those dead bodies, the lives of millions of innocent children could very well be saved.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
Why so much anger?
February 12, 2009 - 19:42 ET by guttermouthOn your first point, you're wrong. While there is no exact number, as you can read here:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
Iraqi civilians were killed in many ways, and yes, by American fire.
On your second point, do you really think that showing aborted fetuses will deter MILLIONS from having abortions? Ever see a cow get slaughtered? Pretty disgusting, but I still eat steak.
See below
February 12, 2009 - 19:47 ET by BlondeYour argument is evaporating in smoke and mirrors.
So sorry, try again.
Blondie
February 12, 2009 - 20:21 ET by guttermouthDo you actually have something to contribute today? You can tell me I'm losing the argument as many times as you want. It certainly doesn't mean I lost.
I have something..
February 12, 2009 - 20:24 ET by Sergeant ROCK... you're an IDIOT!
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Good evening Guttermouth
February 12, 2009 - 21:12 ET by cocodrieI read the whole thread and you appear to not understand two important facts.
An abortion is the murder by torture of an unborn human child.
The terrorists are using Iraqi civilians as human shields and are totally responsible for their deaths.
Now, lets hear your deliberately obtuse asinine excuses for your beloved liberal friends.
Jesus Loves You
You sure know how to stir
February 12, 2009 - 19:49 ET by QueenMumYou sure know how to stir the pot, gm. It seems you now equate a human life with that of livestock. Hannibal Lechter would be proud.
Mum... Like I told him
February 12, 2009 - 19:51 ET by bigtimerMum...
Like I told him yesterday...he really does his job well, Soros needs to give him a raise.
buttermouth
February 12, 2009 - 19:55 ET by Sergeant ROCKlol! Why not just cite Daily Koz??
Btw.. this has nothing to do with abortion you idiot.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Get wise, guttermouth.
February 12, 2009 - 20:01 ET by CobraManWomen are never told about the human effects of abortion. They are told that babies are 'just tissue." If those women received accurate "intelligence" about what a fetus really is and what the procedure involves, they may actually understand that a fetus is a human being and that their actions is going to KILL a child. They just may decide to keep that child. That could very well save millions of innocent lives.
It's analogous to what happened to the Jews during WWII. Most Germans never saw the suffering that the Jews were subject to during WWII. They never saw the millions of Jews who were being killed, never saw the pictures of the dead bodies being tossed into incinerators, being burried in mass graves.
How many Jews would have survives the Holocaust had the German people SEEN what was happening to the Jews? Had those people seen the atrocities that was occurring, those people would have been so horrified at what was happening that they would have done something to stop it. The Nazi's would have lost support, and the killings would have stopped. But that didn't occur because the people didn't KNOW!
I have no doubt that millions of Jews would have been saved, if only the people had seen what was happening. The same is true for abortion. I have no doubt that abortions would stop, if only the people actually SEE what is happening during an abortion, actually SEE the results, actually SEE the dead babies.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
I dunno about that,
February 12, 2009 - 20:59 ET by 5kidsnadogI think we've created a nation of sociopaths who really don't have the ability to feel bad about much. They want what they want, and anything that gets in their way should promptly remove itself. I had a friend who was pregnant at the same time that I was with my first baby. My husband and I didn't see them over the winter, and the following summer came upon them walking by the side of the road - babyless. So my husband, not getting, asks "Where's the baby?" and the wife launches into this whole explanation about how they found out that the baby's urethra never differentiated into a tube, and that while they could shunt the urine out of the baby's bladder until he was born, there was still the chance that he would have had kidney damage, so they aborted him at about 6 months. She told us all about the labor and delivery, and about how she held him after the birth, and on and on.... "but you can understand why we wouldn't want a baby with problems, right?" I was so horrified that this woman could sit and talk about how she killed her baby because there was a chance that he wouldn't be perfect. It was like she had dissociated herself completely from the cause of his death. In her head, it was unavoidable and completely within reason. I think we're at that point with a great number in his country -- they see it as something inevitable, necessary, and almost out of their hands.
I truely hope they don't find some way of testing for stupid or obnoxious, or the rate of abortion will exponentially increase.
Killing the kid to cure the cold
February 12, 2009 - 21:14 ET by CobraManKilling a baby for it's own good. That's one "rationality" that I could never understand. Not only is it counter to logic, it shows the person using that rationality as, well, stupid!
It's what I call: "Killing the kid to cure the cold." With all the advances in modern medicine, this excuses has to be the worst yet.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
So, babies are now food?
February 12, 2009 - 20:06 ET by CobraMan"Ever see a cow get slaughtered? Pretty disgusting, but I still eat steak. "
Guttermouth, nobody EATS an aborted HUMAN. You might as well mention that wolves eat their prey while they are still alive or that a shark tears it's prey to pieces. Those are "pretty disgusting" images too, aren't they? It doesn't make any difference as it isn't RELEVANT.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
Mmmmm Fresh Fetus!
February 12, 2009 - 20:17 ET by Sergeant ROCKlol.. these comparissons buttermouth comes up... geez.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Actually, I did see a cow get slaughtered,
February 12, 2009 - 20:47 ET by 5kidsnadogand I went and threw up and never ate beef again.
Of course I'm angry!
February 13, 2009 - 00:50 ET by CobraMan"Why so much anger?"
35 MILLION dead innocent Americans, 35 MILLION murders, and no end in sight, That should be enough to get EVERYONE angry.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
I hate to do it, because
February 12, 2009 - 19:52 ET by JasonCI hate to do it, because guttermouth is not generally someone with whom I wish to be associated, but I agree with the fundamental point about visual stimuli and personal codes of morality. If a person is pro-choice, he/she should, one would think, have put enough serious thought into it to recognize that, indeed, there are unsavory elements involved in the abortion of embryonic life. To see such a picture and say "Oh, that's what it looks like? Well damn, I'm pro-life now" is to alter your ethics based on whether something is gross or sanitized. It's not unlike the much-lauded scene in Juno in which the otherwise-precocious heroine is talked out of getting an abortion by the suggestion that it might have fingernails; as if fingernails confer an ethically-defined threshhold of human development.
As to this story in and of itself. Why shouldn't Glamour regard abortion as an a-ok option. That final word, option, is the key word. Under Supreme Court decision, women have the right to abort if they so choose. To say that a women's magazine should offer a counterpoint to this would be like saying Guns and Ammo should offer counterarguments to the sanctity of the 2nd Amendment. Glamour is not about political and cultural debate, it's about women's health and lifestyle. It goes without saying that if you are opposed to abortion, you may disregard the information in this article.
Let me add that I am
February 12, 2009 - 19:57 ET by JasonCLet me add that I am emphatically declining to weigh in on this Iraq/abortion analogy. It is an old, lazy liberal equivocation. There are moral issues between the two that overlap, but many more that do not. Let's not go there, gutter.
Oops, guess I did weigh in.
Jason, see the inhumanity
February 12, 2009 - 20:30 ET by CobraManJason, babies are allowed to be aborted because too many people don't think of them as humans. If more people actually SEE that a fetus is a human being, and, more importantly, what happens to that human DURING the abortion procedure, it's a good bet that a lot of young women would have second thoughts about having a human being ripped out of their wombs. As far as the young women are concerned, a fetus is nothing more than a kind of tumor that is being surgically removed, that the fetus is being removed in a humane manor.
Those children are not being surgically removed, they are being torn apart in a very inhumane process. We treat our FOOD animals with more concern for humane death then we treat our own children!
You can't look at that kind of carnage and not be affected by what you see. If you see that carnage happening to another human being, MILLIONS of human being every year, you not only become upset by what is occurring, it's a good bet that you'll do something to make it stop.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
A challenge, Jason
February 12, 2009 - 20:42 ET by QueenMum"To say that a women's magazine should offer a counterpoint to this
would be like saying Guns and Ammo should offer counterarguments to the
sanctity of the 2nd Amendment. Glamour is not about political and
cultural debate, it's about women's health and lifestyle. It goes
without saying that if you are opposed to abortion, you may disregard
the information in this article."
The point is that women's magazines such as Glamour are popularizing abortion in articles likes this. You are correct in that they don't have to provide counterpoint. Since, as you say, Glamour is about women's health and lifestyle, shouldn't they put as much effort into providing informational articles about other ways to deal with unwanted pregnancies? If not, then you must admit the bias. Actually, Glamour has always been considered more of a fashion and lifestyle magazine. The women's health aspect was added to compete with the many other publications that have begun to focus on losing weight and having and enjoying sex. Abortion on demand is now legal in the U.S. But there are just as many, if not more, who see that Roe v. Wade was a mistake. To use a timeworn analogy, slavery was once legal in parts of the U.S. I'm not sure about the age range of Glamour's readership. But I would guess it's between 13-25. Articles like this become teaching tools when a 13-year old is reading it. I think it irresponsible to deal with such a serious subject in a fashion magazine - as if it's no more of a big deal than getting a manicure.
QueenMum...Abortion on demand
February 12, 2009 - 22:46 ET by JerAbortion on demand is now legal in the U.S.
I think it would be more correct if stated "subject to various legislative and judicial restrictions, abortion on demand is legal is the U.S."
Jer
Yet it's still legal
February 12, 2009 - 23:57 ET by CobraManI m glad you brought up "subject to various legislative and judicial restrictions" argument.
Despite the protections as outlined in the Constitution ("nor shall any person... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"), millions of innocent children have been deprived of their life, all without Due Process. Where's the due process in an abortion? Where the trial by jury, the incitement, the actual crime? I don't know if you're aware of this, but being conceived is not a crime.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
Clearly, that's where we
February 13, 2009 - 07:53 ET by JasonCClearly, that's where we enter the thorny territory of whether a fetus is in fact a person; and whether that fetus is subject to any sovereign law or protection other than that which the mother chooses.
This may not be philosophically perfect, but it is, I think, what pro-choice advocates (like myself) are bound to believe.
As for the pictures issue you raise above, about making people see the fetus as a person: I still disagree that any reasonable person could be swayed by this sort of propaganda. As I said, a person who is pro-choice has made a conscious decision - and hopefully thought it through carefully - that the will and agency of the mother trumps the quasi-personhood of the fetus. But be aware, pro-choice advocates on the whole are not encouraging or Glamour-izing abortion. Speaking only for myself, I simply reject the idea that the federal government ought to be legislating on the matter. I think women should have the choice; but if the rate of actual performed abortions crept steadily down to 0% I would be thrilled.
Being apprised through grisly photos that the actual process of abortion is unpleasant and messy should not a) come as any real surprise and b) actually persuade anyone who has put more than a passing moment's thought into their position.
I am more likely
February 13, 2009 - 10:18 ET by Southern voterto believe that perrsons who have had an abortion or who have participated in someone elses decision to have an abortion NEED to belive the fetus is not human ...how else could you or they live with the fact that you/they murdered their own child...that, in my opinion, is the reason Sarah Palin is such a threat to pro-choice/pro-death proponents ...she makes those who chose death to their own very uncomfortable....it is far easier to justify the 'choice' if you can promote the notion that the fetus is just a glob of tissue than it is to actually look at an ultra sound or pictures and see that that tiny little person is real...
Indeed, there are surely
February 13, 2009 - 13:37 ET by JasonCIndeed, there are surely people who, upon choosing to get an abortion, force themselves to rationalize a pro-choice position. But there are still others, lots of us, who are emphatically pro-choice and have no personal investment in it (i.e. no immediate need to avail that service). And still others who are pro-choice but would choose not to actually have one; which is, in my view, the most ethically-sound stance on the issue.
I don't understand why Sarah Palin should make pro-choice people or those who have had abortions feel uncomfortable. Because she "chose life"? How would she make anyone any more anxious in this regard than anybody who has kids? But then, there's a lot I don't understand about either Palin's appeal or that liberals are supposedly "afraid" of her.
JasonC
February 13, 2009 - 14:27 ET by lotrAnd still others who are pro-choice but would choose not to actually have one; which is, in my view, the most ethically-sound stance on the issue.
I hope you are aware of the self-contradiction in such a statement. If the "choice" of abortion is an ethical one, then what difference does it make whether you choose to have one or not? On the other hand, if it is an unethical choice, then it is ethical to oppose it.
I would not say that liberals "fear" Sarah Palin; "despise" is much more accurate, and the reasons behind it are multi-faceted.
And one by one dropped the revellers in the blood-bedewed halls of their revel, and died each in the despairing posture of his fall. -- Edgar Allan Poe
My point is that it's a lot
February 13, 2009 - 14:30 ET by JasonCMy point is that it's a lot easier to be pro-choice if you have something to gain from it; if, for instance, you would have one yourself in a certain situation. I think the most ethical position is to allow that others should be able to make the choice themselves, even if you personally would not make the same choice.
I did not mean that choosing to have an abortion is the ethical choice.
That's a valid point
February 13, 2009 - 15:27 ET by lotrThat's a valid point (personal interests influencing one's judgement on an ethical matter), and I can see where you are coming from, but I still disagree (objectively, i.e., disregarding my own position in the matter) that the most ethical position is "to be personally against abortion, but still be pro-choice." I just think that when you get down to it, such a statement is self-contradictory. Of course, I've made an assumption in my reasoning, namely that to be "personally against it," one must somehow find something unethical (or immoral) about it. If one then believes it is unethical, then the ethical thing to do is to oppose it on ethical grounds. That's what "ethics" are all about. Note that when I say "oppose it" that does not necessarily mean "using a iron hand in outlawing it" either.
And one by one dropped the revellers in the blood-bedewed halls of their revel, and died each in the despairing posture of his fall. -- Edgar Allan Poe
I take your point lotr, but
February 13, 2009 - 15:56 ET by JasonCI take your point lotr, but I think we have to be careful of semantics here. "To be personally against abortion, but still be pro-choice" is indeed a paradox. Being personally against abortion, after all, makes one by definition pro-life. But let's keep in mind that there's a difference between recognizing that abortion is an unfortunate necessity, but being in favor of people choosing on an individual basis (this, I think, is the ethical position I'm talking about) and being pro-life in the traditional sense.
Put it this way: I think everyone ought to be against abortion in some sense. But being against abortion and against the right to choose it are entirely distinct, especially since being against the right to choose it generally involves marshalling legislative powers; and then we fall into the bumper sticker cliche about "keep your laws off my body".
I think I've addressed your points, but if not, please let me know what I missed.
I like your tagline. Is that from Masque of the Red Death?
Ahh, that illuminates things a bit
February 13, 2009 - 22:08 ET by lotrPhrased that way makes a lot more sense, and is much more defensible, to me anyway. I mean, one can empathize with those facing unwanted pregnancies, and thus not want to criminalize what may be seen as a "solution," even if it's a "suboptimal" solution. Obviously the pro-life view has a different take, but at least this position is something that is understandable. So yes, it's fair to say that you've addressed my points.
And correct you are: The quote is from "The Masque of the Red Death." One of my favorite short stories, it's just dripping with allegory (whether the author intended it or not).
And one by one dropped the revellers in the blood-bedewed halls of their revel, and died each in the despairing posture of his fall. -- Edgar Allan Poe
JasonC: You've touched on a
February 13, 2009 - 18:13 ET by QueenMumJasonC: You've touched on a point I agree with. Although I don't agree with your particular pro-choice point of view, I also don't see that because Sarah Palin chose to have however many children she has, she is somehow the poster girl for the right to life. Well before Roe v. Wade women were having lots of children. Women who want children can still have as many children as they want. Legalizing abortion did not take away that right. And there are lots of women who give birth to Down's Syndrome babies every day. These are not things that make Sarah Palin anything special. Sure, she makes a good spokesperson. But I don't see how this adds to her resume' as a potential V.P. or President. And if pro-choicers weren't "uncomfortable" about abortion before we all got to know Sarah Palin, I doubt that she changed any minds. She didn't have anything new to say that hasn't been argued before.
nor shall any person... be
February 13, 2009 - 16:14 ET by Jernor shall any person... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"....Where's the due process in an abortion?
Your question would be better directed to the Founding Fathers and the architects of the Constitution inasmuch as they were the ones who chose not to confer personhood upon zygotes, embryos, and fetuses.
Jer
Jer, Tell me more about
February 14, 2009 - 00:42 ET by KarmaJer,
Tell me more about our founders.
Do you believe their discussions included: "We choose not to confer personhood upon zygotes, embryos, fetuses and anysuchnamefuturegenerationsdeemtoidentifydevelopingyetunbornhumans."
Do you believe they even considered, in their wildest dreams, that future generations would even be having such a discussion?
I may be wrong, but my guess would be that the Founding Fathers would have instituted special punishments for the participants in the "medical practice" that we speak of here.
I yearn to learn. Tell me what their opinion was on abortion.
No representation, without taxation!
Okay, Karma... But this
February 14, 2009 - 01:45 ET by JerOkay, Karma...
But this time you get a short answer. My extended response to your recent questions about the role and size of the federal government died on the vine. :-)
In this case, I was merely making the technical point that neither the drafters of the Constitution nor prevailing opinion at the time considered the 'unborn' to be separate "persons" and thus within the purview of the due process clause of the document. CobraMan appeared to be making the case for their inclusion and therefore entitled to the legal protections guaranteed by the clause.
Jer
Uh, yes they did....
February 14, 2009 - 09:04 ET by lotrWe the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
I guess "our posterity" is one of those umbras (in the Preamble no less) that the enlightened 1973 SCOTUS considered "overshadowed" by the unmentioned penumbra of individualist sovereign privacy.
Now, I know the Constitution doesn't say "embryos/fetuses," those clinical terms used intentionally to dehumanize the object (were such terms even in English usage back then?), but rather used that "highfalutin" word "posterity." No doubt, however, that men and women of the era would've referred to pregnant women as being "with child" (and they didn't even have ultrasounds!) and that the intentional killing of that child would have been unthinkable.
And one by one dropped the revellers in the blood-bedewed halls of their revel, and died each in the despairing posture of his fall. -- Edgar Allan Poe
~AMEN
February 14, 2009 - 09:24 ET by choselife3xAs another poster has said "if that ain't a baby, you ain't pregnant!"
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
choselife...
February 14, 2009 - 20:33 ET by JerI would likewise welcome any legal precedent supporting your views on constitutional due process/Fourteenth Amendment protections vis-a-vis "personhood". Just saying "amen" hardly qualifies.
Jer
~Jer
February 14, 2009 - 20:56 ET by choselife3xI was agreeing with his entire post in general (ourselves and our 'posterity') and his use of 'unthinkable' in particular.
I believe that the framers of the Constitution would have been absolutely horrified at the thought of officially sanctioned abortion.
They didn't put an 'abortion clause' in the Bill of Rights for the same reason they didn't put in one for murder. It simply never occurred to them that they needed to state something so obvious.
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
choselife...
February 14, 2009 - 21:27 ET by JerIf you read about the historical views, practices and laws regarding abortion--much of it recounted in the Roe decision itself--it might not be quite so obvious as you think.
Jer
Help me out, lotr... Is
February 14, 2009 - 18:38 ET by JerHelp me out, lotr...
Is your argument based on judicial authority or is it creative advocacy? If the former, citation please.
Let me be very clear about this: I am not debating 19th century views on abortion, but rather addressing the limited issue of the applicability of the due process clause to a human organism within the womb at any stage of development before birth.
Jer
lotr: further amplification and language from Roe v. Wade
February 14, 2009 - 21:18 ET by JerThe following is a quote from the majority opinion in Roe v. Wade which bears on the issue which CobraMan raised and to which I was specifically responding:
"The appellee and certain amici argue that the fetus is a 'person' within the language and meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. In support of this, they outline at length and in detail the well known facts of fetal development. If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant's case, of course, collapses, for the fetus' right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the Amendment....the appellee conceded on reargument that no case could be cited that holds that a fetus is a person within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment.
The Constitution does not define 'person' in so many words. Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment contains three references to 'person'. The first, in defining 'citizens,' speaks of 'persons born or naturalized in the United States.' The word also appears both in the Due Process Clause and in the Equal Protection Clause. 'Person' is used in other places in the Constitution: [recitation of sections omitted]. But in nearly all these instances, the use of the word is such that it has application only post-natally. None indicates, with any assurance, that it has any possible pre-natal application.
All this, together with our observatrion, supra, that, throughout the major portion of the 19th century, prevailing legal abortion practices were far freer than they are today, persuades us that the word 'person' as used in the Fourteenth Amendment, does not include the unborn...." [my emphasis in bold]
The complete Roe case is easily accessible. The foregoing is from Section IX of Blackmun's majority opinion around the half-way point of the published decision.
So, then, simply stated, the Constitution is what the Supreme Court says it is--according to its interpretation of the provisions of the document at any point in history, unless and until subsequently modified or contravened. Again, if you have later authority which overrules, implicitly or explicitly, Blackmun's findings on this issue, I would certainly reconsider my earlier posted remarks.
Jer
R v W
February 14, 2009 - 21:38 ET by thebutlerdiditThe worst decision in the history of this country. It makes you wonder why they tried Scott Peterson for murdering his unborn son. After all, we're told those aren't babies. So, why Peterson? Why not the rest of the people who kill those faux infants?
All a Democrat needs is the upper-story window of public attention and the chamber pot of rhetoric. How else to explain the rise of Joe Biden? P.J. O' Rourke
Jer
February 14, 2009 - 23:22 ET by lotrOK, point taken. I typically browse quickly through threads and will often respond to specific statements when they "raise a red flag." Thus I wasn't responding specifically to your argument about the due process clause, but rather cuing in on the following:
"I was merely making the technical point that neither the drafters of the Constitution nor prevailing opinion at the time considered the 'unborn' to be separate 'persons'"
In response to this, I pointed out text from the very Preamble of the Constitution that suggests otherwise. I also went on to argue what the "prevailing opinion at the time" would've been on "the unborn" (aka, "our posterity"). I'm not a lawyer, so I can't speak to judicial authority.
And one by one dropped the revellers in the blood-bedewed halls of their revel, and died each in the despairing posture of his fall. -- Edgar Allan Poe
Yes you can, lotr.
February 15, 2009 - 00:04 ET by KarmaYour statement: I'm not a lawyer, so I can't speak to judicial authority.
You are qualified to be on the supreme court. Being a lawyer is not a prerequisite. You can speak to any authority you like. Your opinion is just as valid as any passed down by any judge. The only difference is that their opinions temporarily become the rule until other opinions temporarily change it. My opinion is Jer's camp will eventually lose their battle on this issue. Just a couple more like me on the Supreme Court and persons of all stages of life will have rights. For a time being, anyway.
No representation, without taxation!
lotr... I have read many
February 15, 2009 - 02:58 ET by Jerlotr...
I have read many of your posts and have always been impressed by your analytical and reasoning abilities and your capacity for clear expression--skills which would be the envy of any lawyer. In fact, I had always assumed you most likely are--or were--a lawyer.
You can take the last part of that statement any way you wish, but it is intended as a compliment. :-)
Jer
flattery will get you everywhere, Jer...
February 15, 2009 - 15:17 ET by lotrHere I am on a roll and then you go and throw me off with kind words.
Full disclosure: I'm a research scientist, but obviously I take the compliment as intended. I was just acknowledging that you had a valid response that required me to define better where I was coming from.
Echoing KC, it's threads like this that really make "blog-time" worthwhile.
And one by one dropped the revellers in the blood-bedewed halls of their revel, and died each in the despairing posture of his fall. -- Edgar Allan Poe
LOTR
February 15, 2009 - 15:42 ET by botgi like this referance for the Constitution since it links to hundreds of other documents from the time.
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/tocs/toc.html
“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.” -- Chief Justice John Roberts
Excellent resource --
February 15, 2009 - 20:58 ET by lotrExcellent resource -- thanks!
And one by one dropped the revellers in the blood-bedewed halls of their revel, and died each in the despairing posture of his fall. -- Edgar Allan Poe
Research scientist, eh? I
February 15, 2009 - 22:23 ET by JerResearch scientist, eh? I suppose that would account for the "impressive analytical abilities which would be the envy of any lawyer."
Later, Jer
botg...
February 15, 2009 - 22:28 ET by JerI agree with lotr [this time]. Thanks for the link.
Jer
Whoa there, Jer
February 14, 2009 - 21:34 ET by KC MulvilleThe fact that the Founding Fathers didn't specifically identify the unborn as persons is disingenuous. Logically, you can't construe the absense of identification as the identification of absence. The fact that they didn't specifically mention fetuses as persons is not proof that they thought the unborn were not persons.
The whole notion of legal person, as you know, is at the heart of the abortion debate. It's far from an agreed assumption.
I'm enjoying the discussion so far, but it's important to make that distinction. The Founding Fathers didn't consider abortion at all when they wrote the language of the constitution. It's unfair to draw conclusions about their attitudes on any modern debates based on language they wrote when they weren't aware how their language would be used.
KC: It appears that
February 14, 2009 - 23:51 ET by stratmanKC:
It appears that anti-abortion laws were strengthened in the 19th Century before a loosening in the 1960's and then their essential removal in 1973.
Previously, fetuses were "abortable" (my word) if "quickening" (fetal movement felt by mother at 13-24 weeks) had not yet occurred. Murder could be charged if the pregnancy was terminated after the occurrence of quickening or if the baby was "fully" formed, something that was only discovered after the death of the child. Since there was no way to provide proof of fetal life prior to quickening in centuries past like we can do now with ultrasound and fetal heart monitors, the law dealt with the situation as best they could provided the limited data they could glean.
I will presume that alterations in menses was not then, as it still is not now, a reliable indicator of pregnancy, let alone a viable pregnancy.
According to http://www.ewtn.com/library/PROLIFE/LIFBFROE.TXT, as medical knowledge increased in the 19th Century, laws were expanded to protect fetal babies. Even the AMA was against abortion in the 1800's and the majority of the 1900's! Social mores also began to loosen concerning punishment for sexual activity - whipping/jailing/stocks/fines - resulting in more women keeping their babies instead of attempting abortion and infantcide.
A fascinting account of abortion and murder as seen through the legal system of the 1700's can be found at http://northwesthistory.blogspot.com/2008/03/not-northwest-history-colonial-abortion.html. The author of the page, Larry Cebua, Professor of History, uses a transcript of the Grand Jury proceedings. Dr. Cebula also links to another account by another Professor of History, Dr. Woody Holton, who amazingly published the same story, albeit in a more accessible format.
KC...The fact that the Founding
February 15, 2009 - 01:45 ET by JerThe fact that the Founding Fathers didn't specifically identify the unborn as persons is disingenuous. Logically, you can't construe the absense of identification as the identification of absence. The fact that they didn't specifically mention fetuses as persons is not proof that they thought the unborn were not persons.
"Disingenuous"...how so? The Constitutional non-identification of the unborn as "persons" may not be dispositive of the issue, but determining the intent of the drafters by examining contemporaneous attitudes and practices, related language within the four corners of the document itself, and historical judicial interpretation is not only not disingenuous, but is also the very analytical methodology routinely employed by courts of review. Thus the "absence of identification" is merely the starting point--not the end point.
Both English common law and colonial law broadened the concept of person rather than restrict it. "Person" as legal concept refers not just to individual humans, but also to corporations and governments, so that they can possess property and serve as parties to lawsuits.
The manner that any concept of "personhood" was extended to entities such as corporations and governments was by creating a legal fiction which recogized that these entities, while inanimate objects, for certain limited legal purposes would be regarded as a "person" such as for the service of lawsuits. In fact, I'm not sure it is entirely correct to say corporations are regarded as persons even in the strict sense to which you and I allude. The person who accepts service of a lawsuit is merely acting as an agent for the corporation. Moreover, if there is criminal or fraudulent conduct, or the corporation is merely a sham, the corporate veil may be pierced to impose personal liability. In any event, the analogy sheds very litttle light on the abortion debate in general or on the question of who is or is not a "person" in particular. Nor would I think the average pro-lifer would be entirely comfortable with the comparison of the unborn to unliving legal constructs.
What made Roe v. Wade and such decisions new (i.e., not based on precedent) is that they used the concept of person to narrow the definition. Like with slavery, their argument depended on the idea that a living, breathing human being wasn't a full "person."
The only two cases of lawyers arguing that a living human being is not a full person are (1) to justify slavery (2) to justify abortion. Not great company, is it?
You interpret Roe and related decisions as "narrowing" the concept of "person". The Roe majority and judicial scholars supporting Roe on that issue would counter that the decision instead resisted the effort to improperly and illogically expand the constitutional definition of "person" to embrace pre-natal beings. Early Supreme Court decisions considered slaves to be mere chattel--a very restrictive view of personhood indeed. Fortunately, Constitutional amendments and an enlightened judiciary eventually corrected that sorry chapter in American history. Perhaps, the Supreme Court will someday view questions such as when life begins and the legal underpinnings for abortion rights differently and further modify Roe or overturn it altogether. But, that part of the decision which examines the issue of "persons" within the context of relevant constitutional provisions concerning due process protections, the intent of its drafters, and surrounding circumstances seems to me to rest on fairly solid ground--at least as it may apply to the very early stages of gestation.
It's unfair to draw conclusions about their attitudes on any modern debates based on language they wrote when they weren't aware how their language would be used.
Why not? It's done all the time, and rightly so. The gun rights advovcates--as well as their adversaries--rely heavily on such attitudes, whether inferential or expressed. And the Founding Fathers may not [and could not] have foreseen precisely how their language might be used in a distant future, but the framers clearly were aware that it would, in fact, be used. On that point, I'll gladly echo lotr's reference in the preamble to "posterity".
Jer
The fabulous Jer
February 15, 2009 - 03:21 ET by KC MulvilleSee, this is what happens when you discuss things with a sane person - you get a good debate. Jer, you're wrong in every respect, of course (wink), but it's certainly interesting.
Here's what's wrong with your analysis of the Founders: they didn't address the issue. Therefore, they don’t matter in this discussion. We don’t look to the Founders because they were gods in mortal form, dispensing angelic wisdom. We look to them only to discover what they thought they were agreeing to when they wrote the laws. But since they didn’t address abortion, they never came to an agreement about the issue, and wrote no constitutional principles about it. Therefore, what they thought – good or ill – makes absolutely no difference. Therefore, in turn, you can’t use them to prove any point about the abortion debate. They have no authority in that debate.
That covers your first and last objection. As for personhood … Corporations and governments aren’t entities; i.e., they’re not inanimate objects. Instead, they’re collections of real people, i.e., living human beings. They aren’t legal fictions; they’re groups of people acting en masse. The proof is in the fact that only living human beings have civil rights. Collections of dogs have no civil rights. Collections of bricks have no civil rights. Only collections of real, live human beings have civil rights. That’s an important distinction because with all the things that have civil rights, whether it’s one individual or many, they are all composed of living human beings. Corporations and governments are still made up of human beings.
This matters because all pro-abortion decisions refuse to define what a person is. Why not? Because as soon as you get into the debate, you realize that the only things that legal personhood requires is (a) being human and (b) being alive. That's it. And since the fetus is human and alive, you have to include them. That's why pro-abortionists desperately want to avoid defining person, because the moment you try, you're forced to concede that a fetus is one.
So let's ask. Fetuses are human and alive. What else is needed?
Oh, don't get me wrong. Pro-abortionists try very hard to define something else as the third ingredient to personhood. Funny, though, they each have a different third candidate. Some pro-abortion people answer that they’re not sure, but they know it’s something. Great. What? They can’t say.
Is it intelligence? Viability? Birth? What?
More important, you can't just randomly pick a third ingredient. You also have to explain and defend why that ingredient makes a difference. And the arguments are, shall we say, debatable at best.
If you want the basic disagreement between pro-lifers and pro-abortionists, it comes down to that: is the fetus a person? A pro-lifer, in my view, has the easiest argument: Like a born human being, the fetus is alive, and it’s human. Don't need anything else. The burden is on the other side to come up with something else the fetus needs in order to be judged a legal person with civil rights. As of yet, they’ve just skipped over that question.
KC...
February 15, 2009 - 03:44 ET by JerI was trying to post a very minor edit [of a single word] before calling it a night when your almost simultaneously posted reply prevented me from doing so.
Once again, I have stayed up way too late. Hopefully, I'll have the opportunity sometime Sunday to respond further.
Later, Jer
P.S. Dammit...was I really wrong in every single respect?
You're too good
February 15, 2009 - 03:56 ET by KC MulvilleIf I gave you an inch, you'd take a mile. Can't afford to give anything away for free!
See you in the threads - and remember, this doesn't have to be the end-all of debate. Conversation is better over time.
An observation
February 15, 2009 - 09:26 ET by Sergeant ROCKSo, the abortionist is claiming that the Founding Fathers didn't specifically state that a 'fetus' was a person, so abortion is thus Constitutional. And at the same time, because the Founding Fathers didn't specifically state that abortion was a 'right', it is assumed nonetheless?
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Says you, gutter.
February 12, 2009 - 19:46 ET by BlondeSo...why don't you provide the breakdown for us?
Killed by U.S. Troops?
Killed by Al Quaeda terrorists?
Killed by other Iraqis?
You are painting with a broad brush, as usually is done by left wing whackos......sorry, not buying it.
So, time for you to put up or shut up.
Then we'll compare numbers...how many babies aborted by American mothers.....hmmmm.
Well said, Blonde. I offer
February 12, 2009 - 20:02 ET by QueenMumWell said, Blonde. I offer this link for informational purposes and point out, as you say, that the number that gm cites includes civilians killed by Saddam loyalists, terrorists who came into Iraq to engage in the battle and intimidate the population, and Iraqi police. I don't think any of us would deny that there were civilian deaths that resulted from coalition action.
The difference being
February 12, 2009 - 20:10 ET by Sergeant ROCK.. that abortions are deliberate, civilians casualties are not. So, his attempts at moral equivalency between the two are just ignorant.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Rock... Exactly! All
February 12, 2009 - 20:22 ET by bigtimerRock...
Exactly!
All lefties do this.
Old, tiring tactic.
Like I said, he managed to derail the thread.
Pathetic.
Boxers or Briefs?
February 12, 2009 - 21:28 ET by Sergeant ROCKThe topic could be about underwear and he would somehow reason that this is related to Iraq and further compound his ignorance by citing that anti-war website as though that's legitimate information.. lol
What a maroon!
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
I was issued boxers
February 12, 2009 - 21:44 ET by CobraManYou need to follow liberal logic.
The topic is underwear. Our troops are issued underwear, troops fight in wars, it's difficult to get to the laundromat during a war, a lack of laundromat's are causing troops to wear their underwear longer than usual, there was a war in Iraq, Bush started that war, therefor it's Bush's fault that the troops are not being issued enough clean underwear!
Isn't that how it works, guttermouth?
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
Boxers are for murderers!!!
February 12, 2009 - 21:48 ET by Sergeant ROCKNow it all makes sense.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
The Boxer Excuses
February 12, 2009 - 21:55 ET by CobraManBoxers resemble diapers, babies wear diapers, fetuses don't wear diapers, therefor a fetus can not be a baby!
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
Cobra... Your post is
February 12, 2009 - 23:01 ET by bigtimerCobra...
Your post is Priceless.
The sad part
February 13, 2009 - 00:16 ET by CobraManThe sad part is that's how they actually think.
Guttermouth even said as much in one of his posts. A fetus doesn't have a heartbeat prior to 12 weeks of life. All living humans have a heart beat, therefor a fetus, since it doesn't have a heartbeat, isn't a living human being! That's insane!
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
Cobra... I know. ...I
February 13, 2009 - 00:30 ET by bigtimerCobra...
I know. ...I agree...pure insanity as far as I am concerned.
If you follow the time stamps I have been here from early on...the posts get all mixed up in sequence time-wise as you well know, sometimes it makes me sad, because some points are lost, others have already made earlier, although it doesn't show until later on down the line, well, I hope you know what I mean.
I've been following this on and off when I can in between doing things here at home...a few times I wanted to say something here and there, but with gm...what is the use when it comes right down to it?
Heck, he has a job to do...and he is doing it well.
A fools errand
February 13, 2009 - 00:36 ET by CobraMan"Heck, he has a job to do...and he is doing it well."
Only if that job is to make a complete fool of himself.
"the posts get all mixed up in sequence time-wise as you well know"
Not only that, but the reply layout makes it rather hard to actually read some of the posts. I have my resolution set to max, but I sill have problems reading a post that is only 7 or 8 charters wide.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
"Like I said, he [guttertroll] managed to derail the thread."
February 13, 2009 - 13:26 ET by lotrGood observation.
Memo to guttermouth: Graphic "medical" photographs of bloody dismembered bodies lying twisted on cold white tables aren't going away. Sorry. The old adage "a picture is worth a thousand words" couldn't be more true.
And one by one dropped the revellers in the blood-bedewed halls of their revel, and died each in the despairing posture of his fall. -- Edgar Allan Poe
The worst part
February 12, 2009 - 21:53 ET by CobraManThe worst part of that is the fact that the liberals don't even see the
illogical contradiction inherent in that argument. None of them seem
to realize that mother's don't travel to the war zone and kill their
children who are fighting that war. You can't say the same about
abortions.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
Thanks QM
February 12, 2009 - 20:33 ET by BlondeThere are some interesting things to be gleaned from that paper.
The point, though (as usual) is that liberals make some sort of ludicrous moral equivalency argument....and when called on it, they "cut and run".
Combat deaths are as tragic as death from abortion. Having said that, though, those who are in combat chose to be there....the dead baby never had a chance. So the equivalency is just sick....I can't think of anything else to say about it, other than that.
Actually Blonde, I don't
February 12, 2009 - 20:47 ET by QueenMumActually Blonde, I don't think that all libs who put forth this argument actually believe there is a moral equivalency. I think they just like to try to hang the "hypocrite" label on conservatives. I think we whupped guttermouth pretty soundly.
Not sure, QM
February 12, 2009 - 21:04 ET by BlondeI have to think that, given the frequency of the argument, that they really do believe there is a moral equivalency between abortion and the GWOT in Iraq.
Of course, I could be wrong. I really don't have any capacity whatsoever to discern what lurks in the liberal mind. They seem to feel the only thing worth fighting for is a "woman's right to choose". Other than that, they don't seem to feel anything is worth fighting for.
Guttermouth is just one in the latest line of trolls to show up here....it'll soon be gone, just like the rest of them. They can't stand up to cogent arguments, facts (and links), nor conservative thought.
Do you seriously not get it
February 12, 2009 - 20:41 ET by 5kidsnadogor are you just playing dumb? Soldiers sign up for service knowing that they may die defending fools like you so that you can spout your idiotic beliefs freely. They do not sign up to have their pictures in death displayed so that fools like you can hold them up as symbols of your version of peace and justice, possibly while protesting what they fought and died for. You may not get it because you are, again, a fool, but the families of these fine service people also do not wish to have fools like you viewing even the toilet paper that they used, let alone their heroic bodies in death.
Think about this
February 13, 2009 - 00:58 ET by Southern voterWhen a women learns she is pregnant.... she doesn't say to herself, her partner, her friends, her doctor " I am having a fetus !!! it is ALWAYS....... " I am having a baby !!!! and when she decides to 'choose life vs death' she should have all the facts....and that is the point with choice ....this is 2009 ....we have access to ultra sounds ....photos...videos of what an abortion actually is.........make that available to every women who faces this choice ....it's all about education ...and if she is prevented from seeing or receiving the facts she should ask herself WHY??? there is no other surgical procedure that requires so little information to the patient ....the reason should be easy to understand ....Planned Parenthood and the abortioist are in this for the $$$$ ...don't want the little lady having the ability to think for herself or to say no to the death of her child...
Choose Life
February 15, 2009 - 00:35 ET by TN MomWe hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” - Declaration of Independence
More than 40 million innocent American children have been denied their fundamental American right to life. And even though most Americans oppose abortion on demand, they sit silent, tolerating that which they childishly thought, would never affect them personally…
Yet, if your society will not respect and defend an unalienable right to life, then you have no rights at all, beyond those temporarily afforded by your rulers, used only as a disposable tool of political gain.
Canada Free Press, 2.14.09
I have watched good decent folks
February 12, 2009 - 20:25 ET by traditionalistof better conscience than I make the attempt at removing your head from your behind. However, I will the opposite tack. I have watched your simpering about this war long enough. I am a PROUD veteran of the GWOT and have seen enough death to last me a lifetime. You cite Soros connected websites and demand to taken seriously. Not a chance. Others here talk about the taste of freedom that you and your ilk take for granted. We don't show Iraqi dead due to Conventions restrictions and we don't show our dead out of respect (something your kind don't get). I have had trash like you attack me in my wheelchair (I am a multiple amputee due to service). ENOUGH OF YOUR GARBAGE! You have a lot of nerve attacking someone like choselife3x. You should be grateful that your mother and her have the same thing in common : THEY CHOSE LIFE!! AND THAT MAKES THEM WORTH MORE TO THIS WORLD THAN YOU OR ME! NOW YOU SHOULD CALL YOUR MOTHER AND THANK HER AND STOP BEING A PINHEAD!
20 Jan 09: The day the Republic died
Traditionalist
February 12, 2009 - 20:25 ET by sherylsimsThank you. You speak for me as well.
Thanks Traditionalist
February 12, 2009 - 20:31 ET by dark_dsThanks Traditionalist for your service to your country ... many of us greatly appreciate it.
Also thanks for you comment to Jabba the Mouth ....whether IT is women or man, black, white, red or yellow ... I find IT disgusting...IT enjoys the attention... IT is a childish swine
Water Boarding is illegal but Koolaid Boarding is still an option... dark_ds said that
Thanks traditionalist
February 12, 2009 - 20:36 ET by 5kidsnadogfor explaining things to guttermouth, but don't expect it to help. GM seems to be aptly named.
~5kidsnadog
February 12, 2009 - 20:44 ET by choselife3xI almost called myself 3kidsnadognacatnabird, but it took to long to type!
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
I always feel guilty
February 12, 2009 - 21:06 ET by 5kidsnadogfor not calling myself 5kidsnadognahusband -- my husband is jealous of the dog (my running with the dog, apparently, shows preference for the dog over him), but you're right, the name gets a little long after a while. Wish I could have the cat and the bird too, but the dog drops enough fur to create tumbleweeds that will bowl you over.
I've used your tag line.....Love it.
A salute to you, traditionalist...
February 12, 2009 - 21:04 ET by JerWhatever your physical loss, it pales in comparison to the "wholeness" of your mind and spirit.
Jer
Thank you for your service.
February 12, 2009 - 21:05 ET by CobraManThank you, traditionalist. I have a nephew who has served in Iraq and I understand what the risks were that you and the rest of our troops have faced.
You not only faced great risks, you performed great feats of courage, all to protect another people in another land. There can be no higher example of the believe in the sanctity of human life and the defense of human liberty. You're dedication to not only American public, but the citizens of the entire world, is highly commendable. You, and the rest of our troops, are true Hero's, by anyone's definition. I shall never forget your heroism.
Obama: My job is above my pay grade
~Traditionalist
February 12, 2009 - 21:17 ET by choselife3xI notice you are a new member. I don't know if anyone has already said this, but welcome to Newsbusters. We are honored to have you here.
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Guttermouth, are you
February 12, 2009 - 20:21 ET by JerryGuttermouth, are you freaking serious???
Babies are getting killed every day because people like you don't believe they are human. Showing pictures of the dismembering would expose that LIE for what it is.
Soldiers, on the other hand, are getting killed because they voluntarily put their lives on the line for the cause of freedom, liberty, and justice. Showing their pictures would only serve to disrespect them and their families.
Seriously, the lengths liberals will go to try and justify the snuffing out of the most innocent among us just boggles the mind.
When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).
Another Perspective...
February 12, 2009 - 15:34 ET by CapeCodScott"A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more."
Matthew 2:18
(It's not Galmour, Just God's Word...)
www.ScottOnCapeCod.com
"Most men lead lives of quiet desperation"... until they get fed-up enough to finally say something about it!
What's so "Glamour"es about abortion?
February 12, 2009 - 15:43 ET by QueenMumI quit reading or buying so-called "women's" magazines a long time ago. The choice is either: All recipes and home decorating, or all weight loss-body shaping, fashion and makeup, or all sex - how to get it, how to have it, how to determine if you're crazy if you don't want it, etc. These magazines do nothing to elevate the role of women in our society. On the contrary.
Gloria Steinem....
February 12, 2009 - 19:16 ET by dborschjr68I cannot remember the exact quote, so sorry, but I distinctly remember her saying something along the lines of:
A woman should get pregnant to establish her femininity, and then get an abortion to establish her feminism.
Like I said, I cannot remember it verbatim. I'm sure I could always Google it. I do remember thinking to myself, "If abortion proves a woman's feminism, what does a man need to do to prove his masculism?" But now I'm off-topic.
The great lie is that women are being told that abortion is normal and a woman's issue alone, and it's hip, now, and cool. Last I knew, it takes two to make a baby, and there are some of us men who believe in the sanctity of life above convenience. But I'm archaic at best.
"Liberate tutume ex inferis, liberal puppets." Me.
dbor: You bring up a good
February 12, 2009 - 20:19 ET by QueenMumdbor: You bring up a good point. Where are the voices of the men in the abortion debate? I don't mean those who are publicly vocal; but those who are pushed aside when the decision is made, despite the fact that if a pregnancy is carried to term, they become legally responsible for supporting that child. And as regards Ms. Steinem's quote, her view of feminism is pretty much out of fashion with young women today. Young women today are returning to their femininity while enjoying their equality in the workplace and all levels of society. So I'm optimistic that it's simply a matter of time before it becomes obvious that abortion is anti-woman. Women deserve better than to have to believe that abortion is the only choice for them when faced with an unexpected or "unwanted" pregnancy. Or that the "right" to abort somehow makes them equal to men.
What we take for granted
February 12, 2009 - 15:56 ET by KC MulvilleThat's where bias can be the most deadly - in the assumptions that we take for granted. The writer of this article simply takes for granted that abortion is morally and legally legitimate, and the only remaining question is how to manage it.
I believe in caveat emptor - let the buyer beware - because these hidden assumptions are exactly what you need to be wary of. Political talk carries assumptions that others don't share, but shallow writers and reporters plod on, mindless that others don't think exactly like them.
"...the article attempted
February 12, 2009 - 16:03 ET by Smartypants"...the article attempted to go beyond the political aspect of the abortion debate and delve into the personal side of the issue."
Whenever anyone in pop cultur or the media attempts to move "beyond politics" in some forum, invariably what follows is nothing more than a political diatribe. Moving beyond politics is just a buzzword for saying that what I am about to say cannot be disputed. They're trying to paint global warming as "beyond politics" for the same reason, to silence any opposition.
I remember listening to some young brainwashed PETA girls on the radio several months back. They were going to strip naked for some cause and parade around the street. They were spewing what was obviously a rehearsed speech when the radio host asked them something about PETA's political agenda. They immediately sprung into some drone mode, and chanted in unison how PETA was not a political organization. Right.
"The race is not always to the swift nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet."
Glamour and all their ilk
February 12, 2009 - 16:18 ET by bigtimerGlamour and all their ilk are just doing their very best to try to change how the country has been going regarding abortion, arm in arm with the pro-kill-the-baby-whenever we feel ike it critters...always using various excuses for doing this.
Through all the new information one can learn, let alone see the visuals as the baby is forming from the beginning etc...the polls nation-wide have more and more people going against abortion.
Unfortuantely...people like Planned Parenthood, NARAL, NOW and all their ilk are in bed with the msm for the most part, and the congress-critters on the left, this is all beyond sad, has been since I've been listening/watching this in my early teens...they have an agenda to reverse the polls and keep the $$$ coming in.
One day I hope life wins.
There is only one side -
February 12, 2009 - 16:28 ET by mattmThere is only one side - theirs.
Abortionist Oyer asserts
February 12, 2009 - 16:31 ET by TEAbortionist Oyer asserts "I've seen every type of woman in my office, from Catholics to Muslims to mothers with three kids. I've even seen someone I recognized - because I'd seen her before, protesting outside my clinic."
Without fail, every time I read something said by an abortionist, the abortionist is always claiming that he has even performed abortions for women who have been protesting in front of his abortion mill. Conveniently, no actual evidence to support said allegation is ever offered. Given how they are in the business of killing other human beings, I don't think there are any abortionists who would ever have any problem with telling a lie.
TE
February 12, 2009 - 16:56 ET by NorthCoasterI thought that the doctor's comment sounded like some of the fake comments about others that get spouted regularly such as:
Some of my friends are;
Black, Gay, Foreign, Illegal Aliens..... and they have no problem with......XYZ.
I'm never really sure if the speaker is just blowing smoke or not. Usually I just assume that they are making a point using a generality.
Why abort? If ...
February 12, 2009 - 17:12 ET by SentryDanWhy abort? If the mother and child are healthy there is no reason for an abortion. However, many abortions are performed on healthy women with a healthy fetus.
So, why is it done? How about the child being inconvenient? How about the child being from a man whom the woman has now divorced?
Years ago, there was a movie called "The Cardinal", where a priest's sister was in delivery with complications. He had a choice to make, let the doctor kill the baby and to save his sister or save the baby and let his sister die. Care to guess what his decision was?
Remember folks, Freedom isn't Free. It was bought with the blood and sacrifice of the men and women who are serving and who have served in the U.S. Armed Forces.
For those who fought for it, Freedom has a flavor that the protected will never know.
Also remember folks, that the way to SUPPORT THE TROOPS is to support their mission. Anyone who says that they support the troops but don't support their mission is lying about supporting the troops. And if you want to know, yes I do have a dog in the fight, he is a United States Marine.
"So, why is it done? How
February 12, 2009 - 20:30 ET by Jerry"So, why is it done? How about the child being inconvenient?"
As der furher said.... "I don't want my daughters punished with a baby..."
When asked if he went to war with Iraq to derail the impeachment vote: “I don’t think any serious person would believe that any President would do such a thing." - President Clinton (Dec 1998).
If the majority of women didn't have problems about
February 12, 2009 - 18:23 ET by katiejaneaborting their young they wouldn't need "more openness and understanding." Behaviors that are so clearly right don't require moddly-coddling.
To quote Jerry
February 12, 2009 - 19:32 ET by JasonCTo quote Jerry Seinfeld:
"Glamour?!"
Wow
February 12, 2009 - 19:56 ET by AmaliaI am definitely never reading 'Glamour' again. Besides, it's always been kind of boring.
And as for abortion protestors going to her for abortions? I think that's a lie.