The liberal media just can't get over the way Democrat Michael Dukakis lost to George H. W. Bush. The Times proved it in Sunday's Page One "Political Memo," an analysis by Robin Toner, "In '88, a Lesson on Using Symbols as Bludgeons."
Toner portrayed Democrats as victims of Republicans challenging their patriotism (without showing any actual examples of such) from Dukakis in 1988 to Obama now. In '88 the unfair attack aimed at Dukakis's position on the Pledge of Allegiance in schools; in 2008, the target is Obama's flag pin.
Sometimes, as Senator Barack Obama seemed to argue earlier this year, a flag pin is just a flag pin.
But it can never be that simple for anyone with direct experience of the 1988 presidential campaign. That year, the Republicans used the symbols of nationhood (notably, whether schoolchildren should be required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance) to bludgeon the Democrats, challenge their patriotism and utterly redefine their nominee, Gov. Michael S. Dukakis of Massachusetts.
Columnist Charles Krauthammer pointed out that Obama is the one who made a political issue out of the flag pin, by suggesting that it had become a substitute for "true patriotism."
The memory of that campaign -- reinforced, for many, by the attacks on Senator John Kerry's Vietnam war record in the 2004 election -- haunts Democrats of a certain generation.
The 1988 campaign was, in many ways, the crucible that helped create Bill Clinton's centrist philosophy and his fierce commitment to attack and counterattack, which drove the politics of the 1990s.
Senator Barack Obama has promised a different politics, one that rises above the fray and the distractions of wedge issues. As Glenn Greenwald, a columnist for Salon, recently put it, "The entire Obama campaign is predicated on the belief that it is no longer 1988."
But is that true?
....
Even with so many big issues at stake this time around, the race between Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton has often been focused on questions of values, background and character -- witness the recent fixation on Mr. Obama's ties to the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., or the continued unfounded rumors that Mr. Obama is a Muslim.
Like Mr. Dukakis in 1988, Mr. Obama is relatively new to the national scene, and thus vulnerable to being defined by Republican attacks. And like Mr. Dukakis, Mr. Obama lacks experience with the politics of wedge issues on a national stage.
For "wedge issues," you can read "any issue that benefits the GOP." Toner again defensively insisted without evidence that attacks on Obama equated to attacks on his patriotism.
Attacks on a presidential candidate's patriotism, are hard for many politicians to take seriously. "Unless you're talking about the Manchurian candidate, the idea that someone who put their heart and soul into running for president didn't care deeply for their country is kind of ridiculous," said Drew Westen, a psychologist and political consultant.
"The GOP is attacking our patriotism!" is a running talking point among poor-me Democrats around election time, one reliably amplified by the party-helpers at the Times. Rarely is any actual evidence offered to accompany the accusation.
Toner even engaged in some post-post-mortem defense of Dukakis - his liberal take on schoolchildren saying the Pledge of Allegiance was based on advice from his crack team of Harvard lawyers, you see. Yet that invited a "contemptuous question" from George H.W. Bush:
Michelle Obama has already drawn conservative fire for declaring that, because of her husband's success and the voters' hunger for change, "For the first time in my adult lifetime, I'm really proud of my country." And Mr. Obama has been questioned about why he does not wear a flag pin every day.
In 1988, one of the central attacks revolved around the Pledge of Allegiance. Mr. Dukakis, as governor, had vetoed state legislation in 1977 that required teachers to lead their students in the pledge. He did so on the basis of an advisory opinion from the state court, which said the legislation was unconstitutional.
Mr. Dukakis, a Harvard lawyer surrounded by other Harvard lawyers, believed himself on very firm ground. But by August 1988, his Republican opponent, Vice President George H.W. Bush, was rousing huge crowds with a contemptuous question: "What is it about the Pledge of Allegiance that upsets him so much?"
Mr. Dukakis, Mr. Bush said, was "out in deep left field on these issues." He was also "a card-carrying member of the A.C.L.U.," more concerned with giving furloughs to criminals -- like Willie Horton -- than upholding national values, the vice president asserted.
—Clay Waters is the director of Times Watch, an MRC project tracking the New York Times.
















Editor at Large
Comments Policy
Liberals
May 5, 2008 - 20:59 ET by jefflebowskiMaybe if Libs would take a position on the side of the United States once in a while they wouldn't be labelled (rightfully) as unpatriotic. Deep down, I believe all libs hate the US.
I know I do. Stupid #1
May 5, 2008 - 21:05 ET by balboaI know I do. Stupid #1 country...
Oh, Bal, admit it. You're a
May 5, 2008 - 21:13 ET by Chris NormanOh, Bal, admit it. You're a liberal in crisis. More like a moderate conservative in denial. :)
I don't know what I am, but
May 5, 2008 - 21:18 ET by balboaI don't know what I am, but I swear every time someone starts with "All liberals..", I rarely fit into what comes next.
It's not that I condone fascism. Or any ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in The Beatles, I just believe in me."
M*A*S*H
May 5, 2008 - 21:29 ET by Free StinkerI think of you as more of a M*A*S*H fan than a Liberal, but that's just my opinion. ;-)
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
I discussed this with Mr.
May 5, 2008 - 21:44 ET by Chris NormanI discussed this with Mr. Bauer the other night and now I'm a member of the Whitney Houston Party, where we believe the chidren are our future...
Oh "hell to the naw"!
May 5, 2008 - 21:48 ET by balboaOh "hell to the naw"!
Chris
May 5, 2008 - 22:06 ET by shawn228Do you also believe to teach them well and let them lead the way? Also don't smoke crack.
Balboa,
May 5, 2008 - 21:28 ET by jefflebowskiPlease prove me wrong....when have libs supported any military action that was for the benefit of the US? Maybe a few supported Afghanistan but Balack Osama now wants to have campfire meetings with the Taliban?? I'd prefer that we kill the SOB's. After torture! Oh, sorry, didn't mean to offend you with the "torture" word. After all, libs don't believe it works and it's just plain old mean! Gitmo? Also bad...why keep those poor "liberation fighters" down there? Mean old USA. The rest of the world hates us. Boo hoo.
Do you see conservatives burning the flag? Protesting the military? blaming the US for 9/11? No, just you patriotic old liberals!
Can't argue with that
May 5, 2008 - 21:40 ET by balboaCan't argue with that logic.
Pursuing the truth further,
May 5, 2008 - 21:49 ET by Chris NormanPursuing the truth further, you were a liberal who's been run over by events and evidence that you are having more and more trouble denying. You're laying in the right middle lane, feebly flopping in protest.
In the middle ain't a bad
May 5, 2008 - 21:56 ET by balboaIn the middle ain't a bad place to be, despite the negative connotations some people give it. I'm lean left on a lot of things, but I do sway right on others.
I said "middle right", not
May 5, 2008 - 22:05 ET by Chris NormanI said "middle right", not "middle left". You're still in denial. Why do you hang around here and not Kos - you don't hang around there, do you? You like conservatives - you just can't bring yourself to think of yourself as one - yet. That's why you home in the some of the more red meat posts here - that's the kind of conservatives you're scared to death you'll be seen as - right (no pun intended yes it was)?
I hang around here because
May 5, 2008 - 22:09 ET by balboaI hang around here because it's more fun to be somewhere where everyone doesn't agree with me, to hear other opinions.
well said Bal
May 5, 2008 - 22:13 ET by shawn228Sometimes everyone agreeing on the same thing can be pretty boring.
Sometimes everyone agreeing
May 5, 2008 - 22:33 ET by botgSometimes everyone agreeing on the same thing can be pretty boring, he said agreeingly
“i am the quixotic botg and i approved this message”
What, you think
May 5, 2008 - 22:19 ET by Chris NormanWhat, you think Conservatives here all agree on everything? Have you read some of the arguments here between Conservatives regarding McCain? It's not like you can't go on Kos and admonish some of the rabid there to lighten up. I won't press it anymore, but I still think you're closer to conservatism than you'll admit.
No, but you all seem to
May 5, 2008 - 22:23 ET by balboaNo, but you all seem to agree that liberals are the harbingers of doom, which obviously I don't agree with. I think the looney left has gained too much power, though.
One of the best moments I've had on here lately was the catfight between bigtimer and Blonde. THAT...was entertaining.
Did somebody say catfight?
May 5, 2008 - 22:24 ET by Free StinkerDid somebody say catfight? ;-)
Down boy.
May 5, 2008 - 22:26 ET by Chris NormanDown boy.
Bal... I consider both of
May 5, 2008 - 22:28 ET by Clear thinkerBal... I consider both of the women good friends of mine, and for you to get some sort of pleasure out of them having a disagreement I find pretty disgusting. You have proven yourself to be a liberal, and a sad one at that, so take your beatings like a man. Or you could just GO AWAY!
"Abstain from McCain"
Oh settle down.
May 5, 2008 - 22:32 ET by balboaOh settle down.
Oh Puleez Clear Thinker
May 5, 2008 - 22:35 ET by shawn228With all due respect what a hyprocrite you are. I remember that night well, becaue I was the main reason they started to argue. Your the one that got in the middle and said Catfight. I believe you said nice fight ladies.
It is okay for you and fs to do it, but not bal? Very interesting.
shawn... With all due
May 5, 2008 - 22:40 ET by Clear thinkershawn...
With all due respect... you are an idiot!
I urged them to "fight nice ladies", NOT "nice fight ladies".
Leave it to a jerk (that would be shawn) to misquote me trying to make me look like an instigator.
"Abstain from McCain"
Okay Clear
May 5, 2008 - 22:49 ET by shawn228I admit it read the last part wrong, but you still said catfight and were clearly enjoying it.
Freestinker even has it on his profile
The Sunni List: (i.e. The Watch List)
I'm not blaming fs at all, because he is not being a hyprocrite. It is you.
Ok shawn... You have no
May 5, 2008 - 22:56 ET by Clear thinkerOk shawn...
You have no clue as to what you are talking about!
"Abstain from McCain"
then clear thinker
May 5, 2008 - 22:59 ET by shawn228you might want to explain it. You said catfight and said it in a manner, that you enjoyed their argument and it was entertaining you.
That is fine, if you find them going at it entertaining, i'm not one to judge.
Now you are criticizing Bal for doing it, Are you going to condemn fs as well, since he has it on his profile?
Its sort of like being a PETA member, then going home and eating a bucket of KFC.
I repeat... "You have no
May 5, 2008 - 23:01 ET by Clear thinkerI repeat...
"You have no clue as to what you are talking about!"
"Abstain from McCain"
Ok Clear Thinker
May 5, 2008 - 23:06 ET by shawn228Suit yourself, anyone reading can clearly see what you said. Unlike you, I was trying to defuse the situation and get them to stop fighting, that night.
Since they both are not here, it is not fair for us to talk about them away. I apologize to them both.
I'm walking away from this argument, your debating skills are too skillfull.
Uh, shawn... There was
May 5, 2008 - 23:11 ET by Clear thinkerUh, shawn...
There was nothing to debate. You were wrong!
"Abstain from McCain"
Don't go picking on finger linkin' good KFC
May 5, 2008 - 23:08 ET by Free StinkerHey! Don't go picking on KFC.
Just because they use genetically modified anaimals that the government does not allow them to call "Chickens" /ThoughtPolice Mode Off
Update: ;-)
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
lol free
May 5, 2008 - 23:10 ET by shawn228I had to give up KFC for a while because of Docs orders. I had my first bucket in 5 months last week. It was like heaven in a bucket. :-)
:-( Tasty Food:
May 5, 2008 - 23:13 ET by Free Stinker:-(
Tasty Food: 1
Doctor: 0
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
Shawn and Free
May 6, 2008 - 00:09 ET by Dee BunkDid you guys make peace? Or is it just my wishful thinking. : )
Interesting!
May 5, 2008 - 22:43 ET by balboaInteresting!
"the harbingers of doom
May 5, 2008 - 22:36 ET by Chris NormanWell, of course we do. If we didn't think they'd be all that bad, we wouldn't be conservatives. We live in a country that has been under the influence of liberalism for the last eighty years. When in power, Conservatives have slowed down the tide - a little - but left the machinery created by liberals in place. Overall, the governmental framework we live under was created and expanded by liberals. The courts are controlled for the most part by liberals. The education system is controlled for the most part by liberals. Our backs are up against the wall. We see Obama and Hillary as being unabashed liberals who will take us past the point of no return - if it's not too late already. With a Democrat-controlled legislature, we see this as the largest push by liberals since the Sixties. Now you know why there is so much strong language here.
Free... And liberals have
May 5, 2008 - 22:59 ET by Clear thinkerFree...
And liberals have been doing the dirty work for the commies for years.
For you libs that don't believe me... google "45 Communist Goals for America". Number 15 through 45 are perfect examples.
"Abstain from McCain"
Thank you
May 5, 2008 - 22:15 ET by jefflebowskiIt will save my fingers from typing all night.
The patriot card...
May 5, 2008 - 21:54 ET by JerI seem to recall Obama's policy statements being criticized by conservatives for being too agressive toward the Al Quaeda and Taliban leadership safely ensconched along the Afghan-Pakistan border.
I also remember a good many Republicans who ridiculed Clinton for attempting to blow bin Laden's brains out, for bombing Iraq in 1998, for launching air strikes in Kosovo, etc.
And of course, we can go back to WWII when conservatives were in the forefront of the isolationist movement which didn't consider Hitler a threat.
Jer
I seem to recall Obama's
May 5, 2008 - 21:57 ET by Free StinkerI seem to recall Obama's policy statements being criticized by conservatives for being too agressive toward the Al Quaeda and Taliban leadership safely ensconched along the Afghan-Pakistan border.
Do you mean when Obama was talking about invading Pakistan?
Great idea. Except that they have & would use Nukes on our troops there, meaning we'd retaliate and end up slaughtering tens of millions of Pakistani citizens.
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
Oh, please, F S...Obama
May 5, 2008 - 22:15 ET by JerOh, please, F S...Obama wasn't proposing we send a Marine division into Islamabad. I believe his position was [and is] that if we have actionable intelligence where bin Laden and his Al Quaeda cadre were located, and the Pakistanis failed or refused to take action, then we would launch limited surgical strikes to take them out. That hardly differs from what McCain has advocated, and is also consistent with the "Bush doctrine" promulgated back in 2001.
Jer
then we would launch
May 5, 2008 - 22:33 ET by Free Stinkerthen we would launch limited surgical strikes to take them out.
I'm pretty sure he said invade. Not quite the same meaning as "limited surgical strikes"
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
Thanks for the link,
May 5, 2008 - 22:33 ET by JerThanks for the link, Free...
Standing in front of a Stars and Stripes flag, Mr. Obama said: "There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered 3,000 Americans. They are plotting to strike again....If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will."
I believe that's pretty close to what I said.
Jer
Invaders
May 5, 2008 - 22:40 ET by Free StinkerFirst Paragraph:
Barack Obama, a leading Democrat candidate in the US presidential race,
provoked anger yesterday by threatening to send troops into Pakistan to hunt
down terrorists — even without permission from that country’s Government.
Sending in troops into a country without their permission? That would be an invasion. Did you also note The Headline?
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
Free...You said you were
May 5, 2008 - 22:55 ET by JerFree...You said you were pretty sure Obama said "invade". Where exactly did he say that? Or have you suddenly developed an affinity for European media spin?
Why not simply rely on Obama's actual words.
Jer
You're correct that he did
May 5, 2008 - 22:58 ET by Free StinkerYou're correct that he did not use that word.
He just declared that he favored an action that is defined as an invasion.
You got me.
On Substance Free: 1 Jer: 0
May 6, 2008 - 00:16 ET by Dee BunkIt's unbelievable that Jer could think he has a point when obviously sending ground troops means invade, not surgical strike.
Oh No Dee
May 6, 2008 - 00:24 ET by shawn228Not you too......I see Scoreboards, all the time....ahhhhhh!!
Shawn
May 6, 2008 - 00:38 ET by Dee BunkI see (I think) that you have calmed down on the subject and found some humor in it (I hope) ???
Dee
May 6, 2008 - 09:03 ET by shawn228I can find humor in just about anything. Not sure if i agree with your scorekeeping potential though ;-)
Jer made some pretty valid points. as did fs, but I would have called it a tie.
You're right, Dee...I lay
May 6, 2008 - 00:27 ET by JerYou're right, Dee...I lay prostrate and humiliated in defeat. Pointless....vanquished by Free Stinker. Head bowed, I now slink silently away, consumed with shame.
Jer
Actually, the stuff you
May 6, 2008 - 00:30 ET by Free StinkerActually, the stuff you post shames you just fine.
Think of the rest of us as a mirror.
Okay, Free, my embarrassment
May 6, 2008 - 04:18 ET by JerOkay, Free, my embarrassment has subsided. So, "the stuff [I] post shames [me] just fine". Example(s), please.
Regarding your "mirror" metaphor, the image is a bit fuzzy. Would you kindly clarify? Thanks.
Jer
You should Jer - I can't imagine that any liberal here would
May 6, 2008 - 00:33 ET by Dee Bunkeven defend your logic. Try better next time. Just because you made a really lame argument this time doesn't mean you can't make a good one in the future. I have hope for you.
Dee, if you intend to join
May 6, 2008 - 05:00 ET by JerDee, if you intend to join Free as an NB scorekeeper, I would suggest you amplify the guidelines you employ for awarding points. Your efforts in the present case were not particularly impressive.
Let's review:
1. I pointed out that, contrary to Free's suggestion, Obama did not use the term "invade" in the article he linked. Free subsequently conceded the point.
2. Whether or not the military action contemplated by Obama is an incursion, limited surgical strike, rapid force deployment, or may be technically considered an "invasion", it clearly does not envision a large-scale assault against the Pakistni military, or any effort to topple the government and occupy the nation. I stand by the assertion that what Obama hypothetically proposed was far closer to a "limited surgical strike" than a traditional "invasion".
3. As I pointed out to botg, I recognize the dangers of any unilateral action against Pakistan. I'm not simply reflexively endorsing Obama's contingency plans.
I respect yours and Free's differing views from mine. But thus far you have offered scant justification for the labeling of my argument as lame or illogical. However, to echo your words, "that doesn't mean you can't make a good one in the future. I have hope for you, too."
Jer
Nice try Jer put putting numbers next to your lame arguments
May 6, 2008 - 09:23 ET by Dee Bunkdoesn't make them any better.
Free conceded with sarcasm because whether or not Obama used the term "invade" isn't that big of a point in the argument. He made no implication that Obama said he wanted to topple the government. He was clearly talking about sending troupes vs your incorrect characterization of surgical missile strikes. You obviously lost the argument so you clung to some irrelevant point about the actual word used.
Dee...Where did I mention
May 6, 2008 - 12:58 ET by JerDee...Where did I mention anything about missile strikes? I suggest you worry about your own incorrect characterizations, instead of making false accusations about the words of others.
Why don't you take a breather, collect your thoughts, and then come back when you can make a coherent argument.
Jer
What a joke jer - it depends on what the definition of is is
May 6, 2008 - 17:52 ET by Dee Bunkyour context talking of surgical strikes implied missile strikes. Any idiot can see that. You are not impressing anyone with your lame technicalities. Everyone (including liberals) can see right through these stupid types of tactics.
I'd ask you to take time to collect your thoughts but that would take less than a second. You've had plenty of time and haven't come up with anything but more lame technicalities that mean absolutely nothing to the argument. I take that back, they do mean something they mean you are incapable of admitting that you were wrong no matter what the evidence.
Dee...
May 6, 2008 - 18:31 ET by Jer...your context talking of surgical strikes implied missile strikes. Any idiot can see that.
Are you sure you want to leave yourself open like that for the obvious rejoinder, Dee?
Look, tell me exactly how you believe I was wrong, and, if I erred, I will admit it. But. thus far, your contorted inferences and charges of lame technicalities are less than convincing.
Jer
of course they would be unconving to you
May 6, 2008 - 19:27 ET by Dee Bunkis that all you can do is parse words? I'm not leaving myself open to anything but the logic of a fool Why don't you describe your surgical strikes for us Jer. Are they the Black Hawk Down kind rather than the missile kind? If so, that is exactly what free said that Obama would do. I don't know of anyone who would refer to the Black Hawk Down situation as surgical strikes but please explain what you actually mean by surgical strike. That would be a good start to making some sense.
Be real careful of the words you use maybe I'll feel like playing your stupid game.
...
May 5, 2008 - 22:35 ET by Jer<double post>
really Jer
May 5, 2008 - 22:00 ET by botgi remember B-HO criticized for wanting to bomb an ally.
and are OBLs brains made of aspirin?
“i am the quixotic botg and i approved this message”
botg...I thought I posted a
May 5, 2008 - 23:21 ET by Jerbotg...I thought I posted a brief reply much earlier, but I just noticed it never showed up. It wasn't really very insightful anyway...something about the fact that regardless of whether or not the Sudanese facility was an aspirin factory, bin Laden's brains were elsewhere, and were separately targeted.
Jer
well Jer, OBL was offered
May 5, 2008 - 23:26 ET by botgwell Jer, OBL was offered but not accepted? and attacking Pakistan is bad on many levels.
“i am the quixotic botg and i approved this message”
botg...OBL was offered but
May 5, 2008 - 23:38 ET by Jerbotg...OBL was offered but not accepted.
Just because Sean Hannity has repeated a story 800 times does not necessarily mean its true. I'm not rejecting the possibility, but I have heard dramatically differing accounts.
Attacking Pakistan is bad on many levels.
It could be, and it certainly would be preferable to have Pakistan's cooperation. But, I can also envision circumstances where it may become necessary. [And I think the proposition would be more appropriately framed as "attacking Al Quaeda within the Pakistani borders."]
Jer
"And of course, we can go
May 5, 2008 - 22:38 ET by Chris Norman"And of course, we can go back to WWII when conservatives were in the forefront of the isolationist movement..."
By the same token, we might as well bring up the fact that many Democrat politicians were segregationist up until the Sixties as evidence of racism today. Nope, your argument just doesn't fly.
Why do you assume that conservatives think there is a direct correllation between military action used and patriotism?
I know of no Republican running for president who has ever questioned the Democrats patriotism. In fact, they have taken pains to stress that they aren't or else avoided the subject completely. It's your side who keeps bringing it up. Why?
Chris...do you ever notice
May 5, 2008 - 22:42 ET by JerChris...do you ever notice how often someone posts at NB questioning the patriotism of liberals and Democrats? I do...and it's done repeatedly week after week.
And, Republican presidential candidates needn't play the patriot card when they have the Limbaughs and Coulters around to deal it for them.
Jer
Jer, what are suggesting,
May 5, 2008 - 23:09 ET by Chris NormanJer, what are suggesting, that there's a conspiracy afoot here? Are you suggesting that McCain call Limbaugh and Coulter and tell them to shut up - under penalty of what?
There's something else going on here - something that really bothers you guys without anyone having to say anything. I've never questioned your patriotism. A lot of people here haven't. All I've ever noted was that many liberals seem to find overt expressions of patriotism hokey and unsophisticated. You tar everyone with the same brush - something you accuse people here of doing.
If you are secure in your patriotism, that's great - any accusations should just run off your back.
Chris...please reread my
May 5, 2008 - 23:12 ET by JerChris...please reread my post and explain how I am tarring "everyone with the same brush". I am not by any stretch of the imagination. [See the very first post on this thread for a clear example of such tarring.]
I know you and most at NB have never questioned my patriotism or that of Democrats in general, and I certainly haven't accused you of doing so. But some here have made accusations...frequently--not directed at me personally, but at Democrats and liberals as a group.
Jer
I'm pretty sure futty and/or
May 5, 2008 - 23:20 ET by balboaI'm pretty sure futty and/or SP question my patriotism, but that's because I think they've questioned and / or accused me of everything else, so why would patriotism be any different?
:D
But Jer, Democrats react
May 5, 2008 - 23:41 ET by Chris NormanBut Jer,
Democrats react to any criticism of their foreign and national security policy as being attacks on their patriotism. They use it as a bludgeon to turn off any criticism and put the other side on defense. It's getting tiresome. I don't think it's sincere - just a political tactic. Let's test this: I'll say I think Democrats, while patriotic, are weak on national defense and supporting American interests in the world. There. You can disagree with my opinion, but am I accusing Democrats of being unpatriotic?
Chris...In answer to your
May 5, 2008 - 23:50 ET by JerChris...In answer to your test: "No"
However, let me put it this way [as sometimes stated]--"even paranoiacs can have real enemies."
Maybe considering one of Coulter's book titles--Treason--would help illustrate the point.
Jer
...
May 5, 2008 - 23:52 ET by Jer<doule post again> Sorry!
Jer
The ones who are running for President don't have to...
May 5, 2008 - 22:46 ET by sarcasmoBecause of their surrogates, some of which might post right here on NB. I've seen BOTH sides bringing the subject up, which is probably why we're discussing it.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
"...the idea that someone
May 5, 2008 - 21:11 ET by Chris Norman"...the idea that someone who put their heart and soul into running for president didn't care deeply for their country is kind of ridiculous"
Not really. I'm sure many politicians run, not necessarily because of love for country, but for love of power and prestige. It's not necessarily patriotism-driven, but ego-driven.
The communist party of the USA
May 5, 2008 - 21:40 ET by ahusserThe CPUSA has been fielding candidates for President for ever. I realize they are fringies but I am sure they are for the overthrow of the constitutional government of the USA whether by violence or not. I wouldn't characterize their candidates as patriots or patriotic in any shape or form.
I am not only questioning Hillary and Obama's patrionism...
May 5, 2008 - 21:40 ET by R D HelmI am questioning their intelligence, as well.
I know there are libs who are patriotic, but I am getting pretty tired of many lefties who are, quite frankly, supporting our enemies, or at least those who wish this country harm.
Many on the left have supported the Lenins, Stalins, Maos, Castros, Hos and Osamas of the world for far too many years now.
Yet those who have done this wonder why the Americans who truly value freedom, question their patriotism?
What the American people are looking for is somebody who can solve their problems. - Barack Obama, April 27, 2008
SYMBOLS
May 5, 2008 - 21:42 ET by jaywlThe most effective symbol used against Dukakis was, as usual, one of his own doing. He or his campaign had the bright idea of showing General Dukakis driving a tank, the better to display his jock strap size. When the picture hit the media, the world noticed that his resemblance to a goofy World War tanker named Alfred E. Neuman was remarkable. That was the picture of him that stayed in the public's mind. And, the GOP had nothing to do with the creation of that idiocy.
Most Liberals imo love America
May 5, 2008 - 23:45 ET by shawn228If they do not agree with "The Iraq war, The Patriot Act does not mean they love America any less.
Yes they have their quirks, affirmative action, reverse racism etc, but that does not make them traitors either,
Racism in a "Quirk?"
May 6, 2008 - 09:10 ET by ChasvsSo Racism, reverse or just plain old racism is considered a "quirk"? No wonder you think Liberals are patriotic. Just shows what a flaming idiot you are. IMHO
I said reverse racism
May 6, 2008 - 09:14 ET by shawn228Not all democrats are guilty of that either. Just like not all conservatives hate gays.
It's funny how they
May 6, 2008 - 09:53 ET by mattmIt's funny how they complain about their country and assume it's wrong in any of it's dealings with other countries - unless giving taxpayer money away - and basically side with our enemies, and THEN cry foul when someone questions their patriotism!
They're not traitors, they're spoiled children.
You know mattm
May 6, 2008 - 10:43 ET by shawn228I agree with you on the spoiled children part. The one that whine about wanting to have the chance at a job or accepted to a school just because of the color of their skin and want the government to support them.
I however, do not agree with what you say about supporting the enemy. Disagreeing with the war does not mean siding with the enemy
I'm not talking about
May 6, 2008 - 13:31 ET by mattmI'm not talking about people who simply disagree with the war or the policy.
Show me a Democrat that truly believes in the America that Jefferson, Roosevelt, Truman and JFK believed in, and I might vote for him. Is there ONE Democrat who would say today "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"?
I'm all for policy differences and debate, but things like "Bush Lied - People Died", or "U.S. Out of here or there" or "God Damn America" have nothing to do with debate, or even protest.
When I see a Democrat with a flag, I look for the lighter fluid and the lighter. Sorry, that's just how I see it.