ABC's Charles Gibson, Jan Crawford Greenburg and George Stephanopoulos all stressed Thursday night how, Bush administration Justice Department memos clarifying what techniques interrogators could use with suspected terrorists, included what Stephanopoulos described as “torture with an insect” -- a method ABC failed to note was not ever employed. “Tonight, secret memos,” anchor Charles Gibson teased World News, “new documents reveal in vivid detail just how far the Bush administration went in interrogating terror suspects, using insects, confinement boxes, water-boards and more.”
Reporter Jan Crawford Greenburg characterized the memos as “chilling in their detail,” citing how “they approved prisoners placed in a cramped confinement box with an insect...” Following Greenburg, Stephanopoulos marveled: “Even some congressional officials who had the highest security clearances were surprised by some of the details today, especially that detail about the fact that Zubayda was tortured with an insect in a confinement box.” Let that formulation sink in: “Tortured with an insect.” The horror! (Audio: MP3 of the three insect comments)
Zubaydah, however, was never forced to spend time near a caterpillar, Pete Williams reported on the NBC Nightly News: “In the case of al-Qaeda figure Abu Zubaydah, who feared insects, interrogators were given permission to put a harmless one like a caterpillar in a box in which he was confined, but that technique was never used.”
(JPG image of the ABC News graphic shown in the video thumbnail.)
On the CBS Evening News, Bob Orr didn't mention the insect revelation.
The New York Times story posted late Thursday afternoon considered the insect information newsworthy enough to put into the second paragraph, but noted “the technique was not used.” From the top of the article, dated April 17 so likely how it will appear in the Friday newspaper, “Interrogation Memos Detail Harsh Tactics by the C.I.A.,” by Mark Mazzetti and Scott Shane:
WASHINGTON -- The Justice Department made public on Thursday detailed memos describing harsh interrogation techniques used by the Central Intelligence Agency, as President Obama said that C.I.A. operatives who carried out the techniques would not be prosecuted.From the Thursday, April 16 World News on ABC:
One technique authorized for use by the C.I.A. beginning in August 2002 was the use of “insects placed in a confinement box,” presumably to induce fear on the part of a terror suspect. According to a footnote, the technique was not used....
CHARLES GIBSON: They read like a step by step how to manual. How to extract information from high value terror suspects. The Obama Justice Department today released documents that lay out, in stark detail, the interrogation methods used by the Bush administration -- the techniques designed to stay just within what the administration said the law might allow. Today, President Obama called ita “dark and painful chapter” in our history. Here's our legal correspondent Jan Crawford Greenburg.GREENBURG: The memos released from the Justice Department today are chilling in their detail. Pages of legal analysis about specific CIA interrogation techniques used against top al-Qaeda suspects in secret prisons around the world. They approved prisoners placed in a cramped confinement box with an insect, the use of shackling to keep the detainee awake for up to one week, and top suspects repeatedly subjected to simulated drowning known as the water-board. The question the CIA asked the Justice Department, were those harsh methods torture? The answer, after pages of legal analysis, no....
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: Surprisingly, even some congressional officials who had the highest security clearances were surprised by some of the details today, especially that detail about the fact that Zubayda was tortured with an insect in a confinement box. That was surprising.
—Brent Baker is Vice President for Research and Publications at the Media Research Center
Editor at Large
Comments Policy
What's next? The startling
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 19:54 ET by hydrodynDMWhat's next? The startling revelation that terror suspects were tortured with frowns and dust-bunnies?
Ice mice and snow snakes....
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:28 ET by BDIce mice and snow snakes....
:-(
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 11:27 ET by DoktorFrankenHow can you torture an insect with an insect?
Wait a minute
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 12:37 ET by KC MulvilleDo you mean to tell me that while we were spending a billion dollars per plane, we could have defeated radical Islam with garden bugs?
Talk about cost-efficiency!
better yet...
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 13:50 ET by JmerkleWe should just tickle people to death. I know I have bad memories of an uncle who used this method on me.
A bug??
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 14:15 ET by grumpyoldbThat's not tourture.... Torture is being made to watch a movie starring Janeane Garofalo... Or worse yet, being put into a box with her and made to listen to her all day.... Yeecchhh.. I cringe at the thought of the mental damage......
They could have tortured
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:03 ET by the strugglerThey could have tortured them with 24/7 MSNBC
I'd be laughing myself
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:02 ET by bigtimerI'd be laughing myself silly with this pathetic leftist piddling propaganda if it wasn't so sad to see the level our country is sinking to with this BS...let alone all the other destructiveness the Justice Dept and O/Soros are doing by releasing any of this information...intentionally with purpose.
I, for one, am outraged and have been all day about this.
How the hell dare they do this...again/...only now they don't have to go through the NYTs or WaPo msnbc or CNN...they are blatantly doing this themselves.
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
This is what we can expect
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 06:17 ET by DontFeedTheTrollsThis is what we can expect from Obama, criminals in his cabinet, state secrets revealed to the enemy, true patriot citizens labeled a threat. I see the release of thae 'right wing threat' assessment as a prelude to suspension of the Constitution and declaration of martial law. Hope I am wrong.
Somebody said it last night on Fox, "Once is a mistake, over and over again is a pattern." Obama is doing it over and over.
D
Keep the ILLEGALS out, join NumbersUSA to send free faxes to your reps.
Toture by Insect
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:02 ET by richardOMG I'm glad they didn't flash him with a lightning bug, the poor bastard could have gone blind.
Gibson, Greenburg & Stepho - 3 A-Holes to the max.
I am glad this was posted
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:05 ET by jondelwichewe watched this on the news!, live
We were guffawing by the end, it was like an SNL skit.......
We wondered if it was us, or was this about the lamest story ever.
GAWD, how far the network news has fallen.
Tortured with insect's ?
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:11 ET by BlazerTortured with insect's ? LOL ! I guess every time a bee flies in my car window from now on I'll have someone frog marched in front of The Hague.
"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious. "
- Ben Kenobi on Liberals, and the MSM.
" The Cake is a lie."
They can't read
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:08 ET by KC MulvilleOne of these cannot be true. We call this ... reporting.
KC... We call this
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:21 ET by bigtimerKC...
We call this reporting...
I call them a Hornets Nest of propaganda.
Talk about torture...the majority of the msm is the perfect definition of torture..
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
How Dare They!
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:13 ET by BeresfordHow dare the CIA think about scaring these poor fellows with bugs and stuff?
As I recall, these fine fellows did nothing to deserve such treatment -- unless you count the killing of 3,000 Americans and plotting to kill thousands more as a bad thing.
Let us hope and pray that when the WTC towers fell -- that no insects were harmed in the process.
Monty Python redux:
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:20 ET by Trix RabbitWith apologies to MP, here's they probably tortured poor wretched Zubayda:
Zubayda:
I don't understand what I'm accused of.
Ximinez:
Ha! Then we shall make you understand! Biggles! Fetch...THE SOFT CUSHIONS!
(JARRING CHORD)
(Biggles holds out two ordinary modern household cushions)
Biggles:
Here they are, sir.
Ximinez:
Now, terrorist - you have one last chance.
Confess the heinous sin of heresy, reject the works of the ungodly - two last chances.
And you shall be free - three last chances.
You have three last chances, the nature of which I have divulged in my previous utterance.
Zubayda:
I don't know what you're talking about.
Ximinez:
Right! If that's the way you want it - Cardinal! Poke him with the soft cushions!
(Biggles carries out this rather pathetic torture)
Ximinez:
Confess! Confess! Confess!
Biggles:
It doesn't seem to be hurting him, sir.
Ximinez:
Have you got all the stuffing up one end?
Biggles:
Yes, sir.
Ximinez:
(angrily hurling away the cushions)
Hm! He is made of harder stuff! Cardinal Fang! Fetch...THE COMFY CHAIR!
(JARRING CHORD)
(Zoom into Fang's horrified face)
Fang:
(terrified)
The...Comfy Chair?
(Biggles pushes in a really plush comfy chair)
Ximinez:
So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put him in the Comfy Chair!
(They roughly push him into the Comfy Chair)
Ximinez:
(with a cruel leer)
Now - you will stay in the Comfy Chair until lunch time, with only a cup of coffee at eleven.
(aside, to Biggles)
Is that really all it is?
Strange that they get their collective panties in a knot over an insect yet they fail to regard Hamas' favorite methods of torture - pulling out fingernails with pliers or drilling into one's shoulder blades with a power drill.
For the MSM: In your pomp and all your glory, you're a poorer man than me. As you lick the boots of death born out of fear.
Ian Anderson "Wind up"
These boneheads just don't get it
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:27 ET by FastEdWorried about an insect and somebody who wants us dead, while the tentacles of the government reaching into the pockets of our future is ok! The total IQ of the present mainstream losers can't be over 10 - and the total number of them has got to be in the thousands - which makes them stupid? Cowardly? All contestants on Biggest Loser?
There is no sense in being stupid, if you can't prove it! - my dad V
Looked and sounded
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:28 ET by IamTinmanLooked and sounded like a bad Monty Python skit!
Hasn't the MSM embarrassed itself enough already?
Let's just hope that "Rescue
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:29 ET by balboaLet's just hope that "Rescue Me" doesn't try to "push" this notion...
Final word is: it never happened
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:32 ET by Scout FinchBut it would have been funny.
Zubaydah, meet Boris the Spider!
creepy...crawly, creepy...crawly, creey creepy crawly crawly....
If they would had used
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:50 ET by general companyA single fire ant, nobody would of had pity for the ant, but the terrorist would need a dab of Bactine.
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
The Butterfly Doc
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:35 ET by SeftonI saw this when it aired and seriously couldn't believe it. My first thought was that the CIA released this "Top Secret" document as a practical joke - (CIA dude: "Hey, Joe, let's have a little fun with the mainstreams and put out a document regarding some lame torture technique on terrorists by using butterflies or something..." - - - Joe: (laughs) "No, wait, a caterpiller would be better!").
I've actually always thought it would be hilarious if they would feed the MSM something like this. I mean, it would be too easy.
One time when camping
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:37 ET by MidAmericaOne time when camping as a Boy Scout I inadvertently laid my sleeping bag too near an ant hill and awoke around 2 AM with ants all over me and in my sleeping bag. (I survived)
Sick some TX Fire Ants on em
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:46 ET by MaximusBraveheartI've seen mounds over 3' high here out in the country. This was years ago & they don't seem to get as big now due to less food supply. Someone would be talking mighty fast if you tied them into one of those. Now that is torture. Down to the bones in a few days I would say. Then we may get those 3 ft. mounds again w/all that food. Note that this LOL comment is not an endorsement of true torture. M-B
~I was bitten by fire ants
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 14:25 ET by choselife3xIn 2001. You know how they swarm on something and then all bite at once? I had the better part of 100 bites on my left foot. Had a fever that night and was sick for 2 days. Those little buggers are evil.
Fire ants
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 14:29 ET by sherylsimsI got swarmed by fire ants two years ago. Fortunately my husband was walking by with a can of turpentine. Threw it on me (good thing neither of us is a smoker, eh?) It was still miserable. (Don't know if they would have hurt less without the immediate dousing of turpentine. Not recommending it though)
~Revenge is sweet
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 14:33 ET by choselife3xMix a shovelful of one ant hill with another ant hill and they war to the death. Highly entertaining from a safe distance. :-)
I've never seen another
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 14:38 ET by sherylsimsI've never seen another anthill like that before or since. (Except in cartoons) It does sound like you have an interesting life though. ("Hey kids! Let's go out with the binoculars and watch the ant wars!!!")
This is why you need TV!!!
In my business, Fort Hood
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:51 ET by BDIn my business, Fort Hood is famous for Chiggers which eat your ankles and waist alive unless you eat a matchhead. Scorpions which sting you in your sleep if you move incorrectly.
Fort Lewis is famous for its protected European Carpenter ants which chew you all night as you huddle to stay warm.
Fort Benning? Fire ants...
Fort Huachuca? Killer Bees....
Oooohhh, a bug in Abu Zubaydas cell... I am terrified.
Match head?
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:56 ET by MaximusBraveheartTell me more: What do you do? Normal pack of matches or the wood stick type? Safe and how long does it last? I know putting sulfer on works (besides deet) so does eating a little sulfer work? Chiggers suck (your blood). Can take over a month to heal...
M-B
We used to use the
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 21:52 ET by BDWe used to use the matchheads from the MRE packages which were specially produced to light in damp environments.
Each time we would eat we would drop one matchhead in with dinner and consume greedily. I don't think there was much sulphur in those matchheads.
We stunk, but it seemed to keep the chiggers away. I guess we must have been seating sulphur. It was a trick the old timers taught to the young guys.
We also used to send our girlfriends to the mall to purchase bottles of clear fingernail polish to cover the chigger bites with, SOmehow it made them feel better.
That and long soaks in heavy chloranated hot tub water also felt good, but that might have been a placebo.
Worst I ever saw was a guy who fell into some sort of nest or breeding ground and swelled up huge. We had to evacuate him and the medics injected him with something to counter it.
Real Torture
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:37 ET by slickwillie2001I would 'torture' them with creditreport.com jingles, played night and day. They'd break in a day or two.
Torture?
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 20:57 ET by Sergeant ROCKI would've kept in a pig pen until he talked.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
and in *1984*, it was just a rat
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 21:14 ET by nicholas nicklebyLet that formulation sink in: “Tortured with an insect.” The horror!
Brent, according to the memo, the CIA was using an insect because Zubaydah has a fear of insects.
Now, I'm not the first to make this comparison, but do you remember in George Orwell's 1984, when O'Brien prepares to torture Winston with rats? Why rats? Not because they're inherently dangerous, but because Winston has a fear of rats. O'Brien explains the standard operating procedure for the torture room:
"'The worst thing in the world,' said O'Brien, 'varies from individual
to individual. It may be burial alive, or death by fire, or by
drowning, or by impalement, or fifty other deaths. There are cases
where it is some quite trivial thing, not even fatal.'"
the CIA was using an insect
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 02:33 ET by Dan The Man 2the CIA was using an insect because Zubaydah has a fear of insects.
Yes and was it torture? No it is not torture as it does not harm teh person. Rats on the other hand are deadly especially if they are ungry.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
you miss the point, dan
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 12:50 ET by nicholas nicklebyDan,
Torture is defined--in the US Code ( http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002340----000-.html )--as inflicting physical or mental harm. The point of using a rat in 1984 wasn't that it was a hungry rat, but that Winston had a phobia of rats. When the CIA was considering using an insect, they weren't considering how physicall damaging it would be to Zubaydah--they were considering the mental harm it would cause him. That's torture--whether you use a rat or an insect, it's still torture.
So, if the detainee had an
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 13:11 ET by BDSo, if the detainee had an unrational fear of comfy pillows, soft chairs, and warm food we would be torturing him by providing those as well?
What YOU are saying is anything that puts stress on a detainee is a mental harm and should not be allowed. That position essentially undermines all but the most rare interrogation techniques and does away with about 80% of the standard approaches authorized by the US Army in the Interrogator school.
Such as (From the book "The Interogators" by Chris McKey:
Liberals depend on the classic "Direct approach" and hope that the detainee "Sees the light and sweetness of humanity". That and they do not really CARE if we get intelligence, frequently seeing us as the bad guy regardless of actions(ala Barack Hussein Obama.)
see the US Code (also, torture doesn't work too well):
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 13:55 ET by nicholas nicklebyBD,
Although you may think this is just my crazy interpretation ("What YOU are saying"), I'll point you again to the US Code:
(1)
“torture” means an act committed by a person
acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe
physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering
incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody
or physical control;
So, in answer to your first question, if someone had an irrational fear of comfy pillows ("a comfy pillow killed my father in front of my eyes!"), and you knew that, then if you gave that person a comfy pillow specifically in order to inflict mental harm on them, then, yes, according to US law, it would count as torture.
Now, you and I might like comfy pillows, but that's the point of the quote from 1984--each person may have different fears, and if you play on those fears, then you're probably committing torture.
(This whole conversation, by the way, sidesteps the question about why you would want to torture someone--especially considering how torture usually does not produce usable / accurate intel:
In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a
result of Abu Zubaida’s tortured confessions, according to former
senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations.
Nearly all of the leads attained through the harsh measures quickly
evaporated, while most of the useful information from Abu Zubaida —
chiefly names of al-Qaeda members and associates — was obtained before
waterboarding was introduced, they said. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/28/AR200903...).)
So, in essence, all
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 15:58 ET by BDso you're arguing both that a) it's not torture and b) it works?
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 18:16 ET by nicholas nicklebyBD,
I'm not a legal scholar, I'm only pointing out the obvious meaning of the US Code: inflicting mental harm (even if it's so peculiarly personal as an irrational fear of a comfy pillow) is torture.
You may say that only a liberal would consider putting an insect in with Zubaydah to be torture--except obviously someone at the CIA considered the possibility that this would be torture, or they wouldn't have asked the OLC for a legal memo on the issue.
(As for whether torture is a good way to get intel, please see my response below to UpNorth, which consists almost entirely of quotes from professional interrogators and military men who all agree that torture doesn't provide usable intel. Thank you for your hypothetical situation re: Abu Blood and Abu Johnson, but in real cases--like Zubaydah's--no useful intel has been produced by torture--according to the CIA. If you'd like to read more about how torture is not useful, I recommend John Conroy's book "Unspeakable Acts, Ordinary People"--particularly the chapter on the British torture of supposed IRA members.)
You are correct, it is
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 21:57 ET by BDYou are correct, it is neither torture in the commonly held sense and these actions are effective.
By these standards you set, anything can be considered a mental harm if the person it is inflicted upon does not like it.
Regarding the need for an Office of Legal Counsel Memo, sadly we have a too letigious society nowdays. Way too many lawyers about and they litigate EVERYTHING.
Regarding its effectiveness: You are now getting an answer from a trained Intelligence officer who has a specialty in this field. THe techniques discussed are effective if done correctly.
And useful intelligence HAS been collected from the three top AQ agents captured and these techniques have been used upon. Coutesy of the CIA.
I'm not setting the standards--this is the US law
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 23:02 ET by nicholas nicklebyBD,
I'm not setting the laws, I'm just pointing out what the laws prohibit: they prohibit inflicting mental or physical harm--regardless of the situation.
As for whether torture is effective, I know, you've been in three combat zones, you're a trained officer, etc., and thank you for your service. And, though I usually listen to anonymous posters on a website, I may have to believe ex-CIA director Porter Goss on this one.
So, I guess we will now
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 23:08 ET by BDSo, I guess we will now allow Charles Manson out of prison due to the fact that his incarceration has caused mental harm?
Why would you listen to someone who has NOT participated in the field to the exception of the role of apolitical appointee?
practicing interrogators agree: torture is counterproductive
Sat, 04/18/2009 - 08:08 ET by nicholas nicklebyBD, if you noticed, several of the citations I gave were to practicing interrogators, like Air Force officer "Matthew Alexander" and CIA interrogator Frank Snepp.
(Also, Goss, before he was CIA director, was a CIA agent. What org do you work for that you don't know this?)
Not this one. US Army.
Sat, 04/18/2009 - 08:30 ET by BDNot this one.
US Army. Military Intelligence Officer. 23 years service.
Once again, if the detainee is refusing to communicate with the interogator, how do YOU propose to force him to communicate?
Back when I first came into this business the prevailing thought was that our enemy at the time, the Soviet Union was going to field whole armies of drafted soldiers who had no desire to fight for their country in an offensive war and would be apt to surrender at the first opportunity.
It was thought at that time that the best approach for interrogation was the direct method. Simply ASK the detainee and if he will not answer simply get another of the endless stream to talk to. Someone will talk.
Our approaches and doctrine were shaped by this procedure and sadly interogation training was based on it for decades.
Enemies like AQ are totally different. Ideaologically motivated detainees will simply clam up, and the stream of detainees is not the endless column anticipated during the cold war.
and above all; INTEGRITY, for in truth lies victory.
Sat, 04/18/2009 - 09:19 ET by nicholas nicklebyBD,
Are you retired from the service? Because it seems like most of the people who work as interrogators now (see "Matthew Alexander") agree that torturing people doesn't produce actionable / accurate intel--but that it does produce lasting harm.
If you want to argue that we need to update our laws to deal with a new threat, you could make that argument--but you should start by agreeing with me that, yes, if someone has an irrational fear of comfy pillows, then presenting that person with a comfy pillow would count as torture. (That's where this whole argument started, with Brent Baker's casual dismissal of something because it doesn't register with him as a pain.)
Nickolas: SOON to be
Sat, 04/18/2009 - 09:47 ET by BDNickolas:
SOON to be retired if plans hold.
You can throw names of people who have said contrary things all morning long, but it does not change the fact that if a detainee is refusing to interact with the interogator in any way, you get ZERO intelligence.
If use of the more strenuous techniques causes the detainee to interact witht he interogator then it is a step in the right direction.
We captured the G-3 of the AQ network who had the maximum intelligence potential for any potential interogation. According to all accounts he sat there like the proverbial wooden indian ignoring anyone placed in the interogation room with him and would not interact. Intelligence value obtained ZERO.
Then a more strenuous technique was used and he began interacting with the interogators, actually providing them actionable intelligence that was able to be confirmed and denied by the intelligence staff. If the S-3 had provided inacurrate information, they could simply confront him with that (or not if that is the proper approach) and if he clams up, have simply threaten to re-run the strenuous technique on him again. Intelligence value obtained MAXIMUM.
Lasting harm induced by this process? Do you think the AQ S-3 hates us MORE?
Regarding the comfy pillows argument, it simply will not wash on a practical basis for the reasons I have previously specified.
logical problem
Sun, 04/19/2009 - 10:40 ET by nicholas nicklebyHi BD,
Good luck with retiring; I have the sense that we're not going to convince each other here, but I do just want to point out the logical problem you're going to run into if you make the arguments you have been making.
You've argued that a) what we did wasn't torture--that it's not intense or severe enough to merit the word "torture"; and you argue that b) without these strenuous (non-torture) techniques, we would never get a response from these people.
Do you see the problem? If Zubaydah and others have been "the proverbial wooden indian," but that our strenuous techniques have been effective at getting them to open up, then (it logically follows) that our strenuous techniques are pretty intense, are pretty severe--and that's part of the definition of torture.
You can't have it both ways (it's not torture and it works).
No logic problem. The
Sun, 04/19/2009 - 11:24 ET by BDNo logic problem.
The great motivator is fear, and in my own mind it is not the fear of a known, but rather the fear of the unknown that is the key.
The techniques are not intense if viewed in a dispassionate manner, but the fear of the unknown is what makes them worse than the actual activity itself.
If you read Chris MacKeys "The Interogators" which I highly recommend to you you will see that the most productive period in "Breaking" a detainee is the first few hours that he is in custody. One of MacKeys opening chapters deals with the processing steps the detainees went through as they were brought to the detention center at Bagram. The fear of the unknown that these detainees faced made them easier to "Break" and begin providing useful information.
THe actions taken at the detntion center were not actually designed to provide the appropriate stress to the detainee to provide for better interogation, they were actually oriented on safety precautions for the guards (Searches, blindfolding detainees etc).
But after the detainee had lost their fear of the unknown they did not stay broken long. Further interogation would need to use additonal techniques to provoke that fear of the unknown (See the approaches I listed from a previous posting) all of those would undoubtedly fail your test as provoking mental "Anguish" amongst the detainee even though the anguish would be oriented at the detainees former comrades or his own ego.
By the way, which do you desire more? 1.) Useful infomation that will provide safety and security to our people? 2.) A positive feeling that the detainee thinks you are a nice guy?
I know where I come down on this. If the US is at jeopardy from a potential attack (US elementray school targeted etc) and I have Abu Wooden Indian sitting before me with information about it that will prevent it, Abu Wooden Indian is going to have a VERY bad day.
NN,
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 16:41 ET by UpNorthnot a bad post, right up to the point you quoted and linked to the WaPo. Sorry, but they come in right behind the NYT in bending stories to fit their agenda, and, at times, making up their facts out of thin air.
other sources
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 18:07 ET by nicholas nicklebyWaPo may have been twisting the CIA report, so let's see if there's anyone else who says that torture doesn't work. Quotes from other sources agreeing that torture doesn't work:
1) from http://www.nationaljournal.com/about/njweekly/stories/2005/1119nj1.htm : 1a) Some perennially high-profile retired CIA officers like Bob Baer, Frank Anderson, and Vincent Cannistraro
recently spoke out to Knight Ridder about their opposition to torture
on practical grounds (Cannistraro said that detainees will "say
virtually anything to end their torment")
1b) Frank Snepp was the CIA's top interrogator in Saigon..."One of the big lessons for the agency was that the South
Vietnamese torturing people got in the way of getting information," he
says.
2) from http://www.military.com/news/article/exinterrogator-torture-doesnt--work... :
2a) Writing under the pseudonym of Matthew Alexander, a former special
intelligence operations officer... "It's extremely ineffective, and it's counterproductive to what
we're trying to accomplish," he told reporters. "When we torture
somebody, it hardens their resolve," Alexander explained. "The
information that you get is unreliable ...
3) from http://www.amnestyusa.org/war-on-terror/reports-statements-and-issue-bri...
3a) Rear Admiral (ret.) John Hutson, former Judge Advocate General for the Navy ... "Another objection is
that torture doesn't work."
Conclusion: They may be wrong, but there are a lot of people--people whose job it is to get information out of people--who say that torture is counterproductive.
---
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 21:08 ET by Kelly72From what I know of the subject, the more "strenuous" interrogation techniques have indeed been successful in getting information from certain people, especially right after 9/11. Such information has helped agents and operatives to stop planned attacks of various kinds and thus quite likely save a great many lives. I do think the issue is quite important, and certainly not to be taken lightly in any respect. Anyway, because of that, I've looked into it, as of course have many others. These interrogators are highly trained. They know what they are doing. For instance, they always keep asking questions to which they already know the answers... in order to make sure that the person is indeed telling the truth. I understand the concerns that some people might have... but, having looked into it, I have found a great respect in general for the agents and operatives who do the work that really, truly, genuinely does help to keep us all much more secure.
"strenuous"? if it's torture, call it torture.
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 22:40 ET by nicholas nicklebyI don't know how many professionals I should quote, but here are a few more (pay attention to the first, since he was a Republican Representative and CIA director):
"Torture "doesn't work.
There are better ways to deal with captives," CIA director Porter Goss
told the Senate Intelligence Committee on February 16. And a recently
declassified memo written by an FBI official in Guantánamo states
that extreme coercion produced "nothing more than what FBI got using
simple investigative techniques." The Army's own interrogation field
manual states that force "can induce the source to say whatever he
thinks the interrogator wants to hear.""(from http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050530/klein )
---
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 23:02 ET by Kelly72No need to do any more quoting. A hundred quotes would not change my point. Obviously, I could find quotes to say something different. Anyone could.
I deliberately did not call it "torture" because I wanted to be as accurate as possible. The word "torture" tends to evoke completely inaccurate ideas from a lot of people. That was my concern. That's all.
I'm not sure you could find a quote to say different
Sat, 04/18/2009 - 08:17 ET by nicholas nicklebyKelly,
If a guy has a phobia of insects, and you threaten to put an insect in a small, confined space with him--sure, you're not putting him on the rack, but why not call it torture? I mean, we were talking about a very specific situation here--what happened to Zubaydah--so there's no need to worry about what inaccurate ideas this word will evoke. I said you should call it torture because that's what it is; you haven't denied that what US agents did to Zubaydah is torture, only pointed out that it's not what we usually think of when we think of torture. Fine--but it's still torture. Do you agree that it's torture?
Second, as for finding quotes to support the position that torture works, I don't know that you could find many quotes to say differently--most interrogators agree that torture doesn't work (and that includes both working interrogators like Frank Snepp and "Matthew Alexander" and officers like Porter Goss and Rear Admiral Huston--all these people agree that torture doesn't work).
"All" these people? ;)
Sat, 04/18/2009 - 17:14 ET by Kelly72I understand your thinking, but as someone who has a phobia of spiders, and who has been forced to confront that phobia, I cannot call the insect method "torture". Certainly more strenuous on a person than just sitting in a chair answering questions, but not "torture". In addition, if there were the possibility that lives could have been saved by using that technique, I would be glad that they were authorized to use it.
Strenuous methods may not have worked on Zubaydah, but they did work on others, both al Qaeda and Taliban, and the fact that the agents were able to confirm the information they got by stopping the activities related to that information is the proof of that. Like I said before, well trained interrogators are quite impressive in what they can accomplish, with reasonable parameters, and the more I understand about it, the more I am grateful to them for doing it.
I know it can be a difficult subject, but, as for me, I knew I had to look into it with an open mind, and I learned a lot.
"Nonsense." LTC BD
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 23:05 ET by BD"Nonsense."
LTC BD MI.
We realize that if the detainee can game the interogator (Say what he believes the interogator wishes to hear), then he shall do so. But he shall do so in the normal eb and flow of ANY interogation regardless of technique so it is a moot point.
I again point out that any technique used in a vacuum is suspect. All sources must be used and are.
Once again you refer to a
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 23:01 ET by BDOnce again you refer to a technique used in a vacuum without corroboration and do not refer to the status of the detainee it is used on.
Is the technique fail safe? No.
Does the technique get recalcitrant detainees to at least talk ? HELL YES.
If the detainee refuses to even acknowledge you are in the room with him (A common stance amongts the harder corps AQ) you cannot gather intelligence from an interogation.
If the technique gets him to participate in the conversation, then you have a start. It is up to the Intelligence staff to either confirm or deny what the detainee is telling you.
Does he say that a car bomb will be placed in the garage dirctly beside the number 1 piller of the Gus Johnson Memorial bridge at rush hour? THen the Intelligence staff asks other sources to 1.) confirm there is a Gus Johnson memorial bridge. 2.) Does it have a garage beside a piller. 3.) does it ever have a rush hour.
When itis discovered the detainee is lying the technique can be applied again. THough that does not happen often.
THus endeth the lesson.
Severe, read what you posted.
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 23:36 ET by JWFThe key word is severe.
And the purpose is...?
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 21:31 ET by iveseenitallWhat is the end game here? Why would a government which purports to want to protect the country broadcast top secret memos to the world? Is there even a slight chance this might hurt the nation? Is there not a chance this might hurt our intelligence agencies? Just add this to a growing list of ways the Obama administration is telling the world, "Come and get us. Hate us, because we hate ourselves. We are a bad country.Let us show you how bad we are." Just more proof of the anti-American philosophy which permeates the left in America and around the world. This not even to speak of how this weakens the country ---far from protecting it. But now Barry can add this to his teleprompter.
Sickening, disgusting, anti-American, treasonous.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
Caterpillars! Why did it
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 21:22 ET by steve2526Caterpillars! Why did it have to be caterpillars???
The MSM have gone completely over the cliff with this one!
A member of the right-wing media
Heck, everytime I hear one
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 21:44 ET by jdhawkHeck, everytime I hear one of these drool-by media types I feel like I've been tortured with an insect - a mental midget insect . . .
Mosquito torture
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 21:59 ET by david999Growing up in Minnesota I was tortured. Years of torment.
Tucked into bed at night, the lights would be turned off, you start to drift off to sleep when a... thin and buzzy whine...whine...whine noise pierces the night.
Never knowing when it would descend and bite you... always that buzzing noise coming closer and closer until ahhh....
You swat at the noise wildly , it goes away or so you think as you again start to drift off to sleep only to hear that mosquito again....
You left MN? The mosquitos are wondering where you are!
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 22:20 ET by pahuber; )
pahuber in the TC.
land of 10,000 mosquitos breeding lakes.
LOL d999... With years of
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 22:27 ET by bigtimerLOL d999...
With years of experiencing the same little problem...
They are going to suck your blood...one way or the other....
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
Lucky Minnesota
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 00:55 ET by Scout FinchNow they've got that "big fat stupid idiot" Al Franken as senator. May the mosquitos dine off the rich blood that flows through his generous ass for the next six years. And then go hungry ever more.
Where's the blood on the floor?
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 21:50 ET by Red JeepWhat? No eye gouging? No electricity to genitals? No cigarette burns? No fingernails ripped off? No hanging by thumbs? No fingers cut off? No fingers smashed with hammers?….What amateurs. Bug in a box? Silly. Put some blood on the floor first and you will soon have bugs….
BRUTAL!!!! OH THE HUMANITY
Thu, 04/16/2009 - 22:52 ET by krendler...made public detailed memos Thursday describing brutal interrogation techniques used by the CIA...In dozens of pages of
dispassionate legal prose, the methods approved by the Bush
administration for extracting information from senior al-Qaida
operatives are spelled out in careful detail — from keeping detainees
awake for up to eleven straight days, to placing them in a dark,
cramped box, to putting insects into the box to exploit their fears.
Oh. The HUMANITY.
Kept from sleeping! My God! Cramped boxes. And....INSECTS!!!
LOL.
Of all of these, the one that would really annoy me (and that's the word: ANNOY. Nothing more. Nothing less) is keeping me from sleeping. The others I could care less about. I'd be like "Oh, no! Don't throw me into the briar patch!!!! Or that cramped box with the cricket inside!!!"
I wonder if they got a good yelling at, too?
And what kind of insect? A mealworm? Wooly catipillar?
Brutal, I tell you. Brutal.
Somewhere out there, people on practically every continent who have actually been victims of torture or administered it are laughing their heads off at this "big disclosure".
Obama condemned what he
called a "dark and painful chapter in our history," and said that the
interrogation techniques would never be used again.
No, Barry. The dark chapter in our history is right now with a superficial, sanctimonious, finger-pointing showboat like yourself sitting in the White House.
<I>Bush administration
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 00:51 ET by GeronL<I>Bush administration Justice Department memos clarifying what techniques interrogators could use with suspected terrorists, included what Stephanopoulos described as “torture with an insect” -- a method ABC failed to note was not ever employed.</i>
Lets not mention that part. This whole 'torture' stuff was always a joke.. we are talking about people who chop off heads.
The United States Government is responsible for bruising my ass.
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 04:45 ET by JWFUncle Sam sent me to the Phillipines where I rented a place out in town. A place loaded up with cockroaches, BIG tropical cockroaches mind you! Damn you Uncle Sam for sending me to his hell on earth.
I fought back. I put borax in dark places. Cockroaches don't like borax because it eats through the exoskeleton. Nasty stuff and the cockroaches did a grisly death wiggling and thrashing out on the floor. Take that Uncle Sam.
So this one day, I am drinking some beer and one of those crazy bastard Uncle Sam loving cockroaches goes out and does his death dance right in the middle of the floor and DIES. But as I am happily watching TV and drinking beer, I sez to myself, I will get it later.
Did I mention it is hot as hell in the Philippines and I am barefoot? So I go to get another beer and I step on this cockroach and it occurs to me, HOLY COW, that is that Uncle Sam loving cockroach! I bring my foot up so fast, I kicked myself right in the ass. Left a bruise! Yes. It did. I was showing everyone for weeks. Not everyone looked though. Some just took my word for it.
So Uncle Sam tortured me with a cockroach and I had the bruise to prove it!
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
Thanks jwf lol. One small
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 06:20 ET by eaglewingz08Thanks jwf lol. One small step for a man one less liberal cockroach for mankind. Wish there were something as effective against liberals as Borax is for their insect cousins. I personally would not care if the military used leeches, or put these fiends in a pigsty with pigs, or just showed them a pig pen and told them if they weren't cooperative, they'd be makin bacon. But then I must be some rightwing extremist or something. Somehow doing things to these fiends that would be deemed too boring to be on FEAR FACTOR, does not rile my blood. But then liberals are sooooooo sensitive as to what boils their blood.
Torture Them with Love!
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 07:00 ET by ConScottA caterpillar?
Personally, I'd rather toss an unneutered Chihuahua into this guy's cell.
But that's just me......
Hey, I have an unneutered chihauhau
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 07:05 ET by JWFIt was funny getting him ticked off until finally one day he broke the skin a little.
Sincerely,
a Veteran of a 1000 psychic wars.
I Just Lauged at This
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 07:40 ET by CooperIn a box with an insect?
This is my 10 year old daughters idea of fun lol.
Wow...
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 08:00 ET by txcoWow...small confined area with insects???? That sounds exactly like our yearly camping trip...small tent, lots of bugs.
Organization
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 08:31 ET by usinkoreaCan we get the ball rolling on this now? Maybe the MRC could lay out the plans and be prepared to assign staff when the time comes?
As the incriments of time pass, we need people putting together Freedom of Information Act requests for documents that will be written during Obama's time in office related to CIA and other intel activity. Because I'd bet my right kidney such requests will eventually uncover that Obama's people will have order much the same, and in cases the very same, methods as currently sending the left into a tizzy.
We'll have to be patient and wait for the many years to roll by before we can get our hands on texts that are not redacted too much to prove such things went on --- because the media and academia and the left, but I'm repeating myself, surely will not dig for this information nor will the type of intellectual college humanities-educated leftist that gets favored in civil service jobs leak them ---- not during Obama's time in office or after he leaves.
And hopefully a Republican president after Obama will not decide to damage the nation by immediately locating and publicizing such documents just to harm Obama's image.
But I do hope one day we'll be able to safely use those coming documents to rub the left's stooges' noses in it.
Becasue when I look at them - and then I consider what some of their heros have done - like the Cold War warrior Kennedy did - or even the great Human Rights president Carter did - I can't help but want to rub their noses in something smelly...
(Noam Chompsky is the king of CIA bashing, and bases much of his criticism on the goings on in Latin America - and if I'm not mistaken - frequently in the Latin America under Carter's watch......and the many, many young adult leftists I saw while in college over my many years there would look at you with a complete blank face if you mentioned Kennedy was actually a very gungho Cold War warrior.......
At lesat Noam Chompsky is even handed in his hatred of America. Maybe he'll be the one, if we can find a way to get him to live long enough, to publish how Obama turned out to be just another beastly user of the CIA....)
metamorphosis
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 08:49 ET by pcantidotethankfully that caterpillar did not turn into a butterfly in the box.....we could have had attempted murder on our hands folks.....
surprise
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 08:52 ET by SickofLibsStephanoplouos gives the CIA a D-.
The NYT says “the technique was not used”, after first mentioning it. Nice. I can think of at least 1,000 other "techniques" much worse that also were never used, so what's the point?
PS: Anybody know where can I get plans for one of these newfangled "confinement boxes"?
When we get attacked again,
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 10:08 ET by billbWhen we get attacked again, it will be blamed on George Bush for making them angry.
From Huckleberry Finn:
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 10:17 ET by mattm"You got any spiders in here, Jim?"
"No, sah, thanks to goodness I hain't, Mars Tom."
"All right, we'll get you some."
"But bless you, honey, I doan' WANT none. I's afeard un um. I jis' 's soon have rattlesnakes aroun'."
Tom thought a minute or two, and says:
"It's a good idea. And I reckon it's been done. It MUST a been done; it stands to reason. Yes, it's a prime good idea. Where could you keep it?"
"Keep what, Mars Tom?"
"Why, a rattlesnake."
"De goodness gracious alive, Mars Tom! Why, if dey was a rattlesnake to come in heah I'd take en bust right out thoo dat log wall, I would, wid my head."
well, that does it for me
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 11:09 ET by roni can accept waterboarding, maybe even chopping off a finger or two, maybe burying the suspect in a coffin for a short time or forcing his head into a toilet but i will never ever accept the use of bugs. horrible detestable tactics what has the world come to?
No one expects the Spainsh Inquisition
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 11:12 ET by Tom PainePoke him with the soft pillow and then have him sit in the comfy chair...
No one expects the Spanish
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 13:22 ET by Jack BauerWhich is why it was so effective, especially if you were ticklish!
when will this torture stop!
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 13:00 ET by Jack BauerCross posted on Open Thread!
AP LATEST
Washington D.C., 4/17/2009
Obama Administration releases more shock memos on CIA Torture techniques
In a move that is sure to further embarrass the previous Bush administration, Eric Holder, Attorney General, ordered the release of further CIA memorandums detailing vile torture techniques.
The torture was inflicted on innocent Muslim tourists kidnapped by American troops whilst on vacation in Afghanistan, a renowned tourist destination for Muslims worldwide.
MEMO: CYA-BOHICA-666/BHILLS-90210
Prisoner "Mohammed X" subjected to an enhanced STARE-BOARDING SESSION. CIA AGENT #132 used advanced staring techniques to glower and glare at "X". After six hours, prisoner broke under intense OCULAR pressure and was reduced to a blubering cry baby reminicent of Chris Matthews, his favorite MSNBC host. .
Prisoner "Malcolm XXY" subjected to 36 hour continuous MARK LEVIN SHOW BOARDING. Under direction of CIA AGENT #69, high volume speakers played selected troubling excerpts from the extreme right-winger's radio show. "XXY" finally cracked after a final one hour session, featuring a looped vocal sequence including audio favories: "GET OFF THE LINE YA BIG DOPE. THANK ME FOR YOUR CALL. NO... SCREW YOU! WE OWN THIS COUNTRY, NOT YOU"
Sorry Jack
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 20:40 ET by general companyBut the Torture Never Stops
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
So they behead, torture,
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 13:55 ET by TheConservativeChemistSo they behead, torture, and mutilate all of the "infidels" they capture...
We treat the inmates at Guantanemo Bay better than inmates in US prisons, with stupid "halal" meals and copies of the Koran that the soldiers handle with gloves...
And the MSM media is upset about a catepillar...not even a spider or scorpion or wasp...a catepillar...
This is what the left is...a mockery...
Someone needs to lock the MSM reporters and Commicrat politicians in a box...please!
I don't believe we should turture them
Fri, 04/17/2009 - 23:18 ET by cocodrieWe should give them the same treatment and gentle care we give unborn babies at Planned Parenthood.
Get some giant forceps and break off one leg, if he won't talk break off the other one. he'll probably would talk after his arms are gone.
Make a hole in the back of his head and suck out his brains. That will calm hom down.
There are many more methods available.
If it was good enough for FIFTY MILLION unborn Americans, It's good enough for them.
Jesus Loves You so much He died for you
No Kidding Cocodrie
Sun, 04/19/2009 - 11:37 ET by rexdraconimThe Leftists want to and do kill babies all day....
But you can't execute murdering, rapacious psychopathic criminals....
And you can't be firm and strenuous with questioning terrorists....
Inconsistent? Thy name is Liberals. Foolish? Thy name is Liberal. Disingenuos? Thy name is Liberal.
Without the protection of us "right wing extremists" the Leftists would have all the fun and pleasure of living under some Tyrant, since they seem completely unable to comprehend basic principles of survival. Either that or they would be extinct because they killed all their babies in the interest of more "party time."
For a people to survive they must protect their babies, at all cost. They must be relentless in their approach to the enemy. They must remove from their midst the criminal element, not only for safety but to improve their quality of life and performance as a people. Frankly, I don't see how Leftists claim to be about evolution or "nature" when they clearly cannot understand either one at a meaningful level. The Leftists are doomed to be selected against in the course of time.
Stupid is a universal capital crime.
Calling strenuos interrogation "torture".....Heck, having to get a JOB is "torture" for the people who support the Liberals. Paying your bills is "torture." Cleaning up after yourself is "torture."
But the enemy never "tortures" or harms us, do they?
And NEVER a word from the Leftists about what the enemy in the wars of the last century did to people of OURS they captured, much less a condemnation from the left as to the horrible things the Islamo-Facists do not only to our people, but to their own people.
What do the Leftists think would happen to them for THEIR basic behavior in most of our enemies' homelands?
Wouldn't be a "bug in a box," that's for darn sure!
"You can have Peace or you can have Freedom; just don't count on having both at the same time." - R.A.H
"I'll take the harsh reality of liberty over the illusion of security...everytime!" -me<
President Obama's willingness to talk with our enemies, and his
Sat, 04/18/2009 - 05:13 ET by Rush Fansuperb negotiating skills are valid reasons for discarding any type of "torture" or discomfort for those we capture. Waterboarding and insects will no longer be necessary. Once President Obama solves this economic crisis we are in, he will focus on the "War with those who are upset with us", specifically Osama bin Laden.
I am confidant that President Obama will be able to negotiate a deal with bin Laden that will end this misnamed "War on Terror."
I have been told by "unnamed sources" at the highest levels of our government that as part of the negotiations, President Obama will tell Osama bin Laden that if bin Laden leaves New York City, Washington, D.C., or Speaker Pelosi's beloved San Francisco alone, President Obama will allow bin Laden to attack any of the "Red" Republican-dominated states, such as Texas or Wyoming.
Peace on Earth will soon be here!
-------------------------------------------------------
"They are actively promoting the decline of America." ~ Rush Limbaugh on liberals and Democrats
Soldiers have a soul.-
Sat, 04/18/2009 - 21:19 ET by Charles H. GarridoHello ! Mr. Brent Baker Column excellent.thanks. To: Mr. Stephanopoulus,Charles Gibson,Pete Willians, and Lady Mrs. Crawford Greeberg. You people are youngers have never got into a real trouble; matter a fact never even been into a "Fracas" on Sweat and Blood..- The actual was truth QUOTE (UNKNOWN) COPY Clipping.- "We were soldiers, It,s my profession, and I,m proud of no body said you had to be "crap at it".. As for the men who tortured us... they had a job to do as well, It's just that some of them ENJOYED IT A TO MUCH !!! If a met any of them in the Street TOMORROW maybe thinks/ thought!!!!? I could get away with it!!!!" ****** Please give us a break, you do not realize any thing, never thinks or thought, about WAR or being a prisoner or tortured. Youngers guys and girls your suits and expenses, lunches write or wrote your Ideas .After go to Home sleep to your confortable Air Conditioned Bed ..BUT EVERY MORNING GO A FRONT TO YOUR MIRROR.-Try what happen about yesterday.
Thanks & Cooperation.-
Charles H. Garrido, Miami Fla
~No more for this guy, barkeep
Sat, 04/18/2009 - 21:21 ET by choselife3xI'm taking his key(s)board before he hurts hisself.
That high-pitched scream you hear is the troll under my heel.