Brian Williams revealed Wednesday afternoon that in a question he didn't get to with President Obama the day before, he wanted to ask Obama if he is “ever tempted” to start over again with the stimulus bill “and give a stemwinder combination fireside chat/speech to the nation,” just as did Michael Douglas on "the crime bill” in The American President movie, “and just say, 'look, here's what we got to do. I went wrong. It got loaded up. Now we're going to do the real thing?'”
In that 1995 film (IMDb page), in which Douglas played Democratic President “Andrew Shepherd,” after compromising with Congress, he returns to his left-wing sensibilities and, in the climatic point of the movie cheered by liberal film-goers, walks to the press room where he delivers an impassioned lecture -- which earns affirmative nods from the journalists -- praising the ACLU, pushing for extreme action on global warming and promises, in the portion Williams admired, “to get the guns.” President Shepherd:
The other piece of legislation is the crime bill. As of today it no longer exists. I’m throwing it. I’m throwing it out and writing a law that makes sense. You cannot address crime prevention without getting rid of assault weapons and handguns. I consider them a threat to national security and I will go door-to-door if I have to but I’m going convince Americans that I’m right and I’m going to get the guns.
Williams at about 1:06 PM EST Wednesday during the MSNBC hour anchored by Andrea Mitchell, who, as Williams spoke, could be heard calling The American President her “favorite” movie:
The President apparently, when he had the leadership over, put the staff in the cabinet room, brought the leadership into the Oval Office and said to them, “get the junk out of this bill. Get the junk out of this so we can sell it to the nation as pure stimulus.” Never going to happen, of course, not with 535 people wanting a little something extra in there. But of course, it's very pleasing.
A question I had for him yesterday, and I ran out of time -- it was kind of like pictures with Santa in the Oval Office, you didn't get much time with the big man -- was: “Are you ever tempted,” and this kind of borrows from the Aaron Sorkin's American President with Michael Douglas and the crime bill, “are you ever tempted to scrap it, throw it in the drawer and start again and give a stemwinder combination fireside chat/speech to the nation and just say, 'look, here's what we got to do. I went wrong. It got loaded up. Now we're going to do the real thing?'”
A reprint of my May 24, 1999 MRC CyberAlert item about the movie's liberal plot line:
Monday night at 8:30p ET/PT, 7:30pm CT/MT, CBS will broadcast the 1995 movie The American President. It couldn’t be more timely for liberals with its advocacy of gun control.Read no further if you plan to watch the movie and don’t want to know the plot ahead of time.
As reported in the May 14 CyberAlert last year, Rob Reiner directed and produced the film starring Michael Douglas as Democratic President "Andrew Shepherd," a widow with a teenage daughter. Just like Clinton sans Hillary. He falls in love with environmental lobbyist "Sydney Ellen Wade," played by Annette Bening. At one point in the Oval Office "Wade" lectures "Shepherd": "Global warming is a calamity, the effects of which will be second only to nuclear war..."
The unmarried President carrying on an affair provides an angle for the Republican candidate for President to attack. The Republican: Senator "Bob Rumson" from Kansas. Sound familiar? Richard Dreyfuss plays "Rumson," an odious man bent on twisting the facts to make character an issue.
Naturally, by the end of the movie the wavering "Shepherd" comes to his senses and becomes a forceful liberal. Motivated by losing "Wade" who is disappointed by his compromises, "Shepherd" goes to the press room and delivers a lecture fulfilling a liberal’s dream, denouncing "Rumson’s" character attack on "Wade" for once having been at a South Africa protest where a U.S. flag was burned, praising the ACLU, advocating huge cuts in emissions to solve the global warming problem and demanding the end of gun ownership. Here are some excerpts:
- Yes, I am a card carrying member of the ACLU, but the more important question is why aren't you Bob? Now this is an organization whose sole purpose is to defend the bill of rights, so it naturally begs the question why would a Senator, his party's most powerful spokesman and a candidate for President, choose to reject upholding the Constitution?- White House resolution 455, an energy bill requiring a 20 percent reduction in the emission of fossil fuels over the next ten years. It is by far the most aggressive stride ever taken in the fight to reverse the effects of global warming.
- The other piece of legislation is the crime bill. As of today it no longer exists. I’m throwing it. I’m throwing it out and writing a law that makes sense. You cannot address crime prevention without getting rid of assault weapons and handguns. I consider them a threat to national security and I will go door-to-door if I have to but I’m going convince Americans that I’m right and I’m going to get the guns.
—Brent Baker is Vice President for Research and Publications at the Media Research Center





The President apparently, when he had the leadership over, put the staff in the cabinet room, brought the leadership into the Oval Office and said to them, “get the junk out of this bill. Get the junk out of this so we can sell it to the nation as pure stimulus.” Never going to happen, of course, not with 535 people wanting a little something extra in there. But of course, it's very pleasing.















Editor at Large
Comments Policy
Hey, maybe some of those
February 4, 2009 - 16:35 ET by motherbeltHey, maybe some of those Hollywood screenwriters are out of work right now, and he could hire them to write his speeches!
"...I consider them a
February 4, 2009 - 16:37 ET by Tailgunner"...I consider them a threat to national security and I will go door-to-door if I have to but I’m going convince Americans that I’m right and I’m going to get the guns."
Famous last words....
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
Knock, knock. Bang, bang.
February 5, 2009 - 00:03 ET by Scout FinchKnock, knock. Bang, bang.
Won't work: The Dems will
February 4, 2009 - 16:35 ET by TN MomWon't work: The Dems will eat obama alive!
Since Brian Williams is living in fantasy land, er, Tinsel Town, I would suggest that obama will 'throw out' all legislation he's has passed in the past 2 weeks, and 'write laws that actually make sense', like Closing Gitmo!
While he's at it, obama needs to recall Geithner for cheating on his taxes.
Gosh Brian and Andrea,
February 4, 2009 - 16:38 ET by bigtimerGosh Brian and Andrea, along with the rest of your ilk....he may as well take your La-La-Land advice...after all, he is nothing but a Chicago/Soros left-wing, msm Hollywood production....empty-suit and all.
You're gonna' get what you paid for...and you are going to be paying for it in the end.
Remember...elections matter.
obama will probably end up
February 4, 2009 - 20:58 ET by TruthMongerobama will probably end up doing what Captain Jack Sparrow did in Pirates of the Caribbean 3 At World's End - or he should anyways...
"The other piece of
February 4, 2009 - 16:39 ET by Utherpend"The other piece of legislation is the crime bill. As of today it no longer exists. I’m throwing it. I’m throwing it out and writing a law that makes sense. You cannot address crime prevention without getting rid of assault weapons and handguns. I consider them a threat to national security and I will go door-to-door if I have to but I’m going convince Americans that I’m right and I’m going to get the guns."
And that would be followed by the country rising up to over throw the dictatorship that the government had become. Nicht Wahr?
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you."
for the love of God
February 4, 2009 - 16:41 ET by candanceCan we please stop calling it a stimulus bill? It's welfare, pure and simple.
Dissent is the truest voice of patriotism, except when it hinders a Democrat.
How about we call it
February 4, 2009 - 16:46 ET by Blondestinking pork-laden spending bill instead?
or...
February 4, 2009 - 16:49 ET by candanceThe Communism Bill.
Dissent is the truest voice of patriotism, except when it hinders a Democrat.
Careful
February 4, 2009 - 16:58 ET by Prester JohnSuch a term may be considered hate speech by CAIR.
I hope
February 4, 2009 - 19:02 ET by guttermouthI hope Florida doesn't get a penny of stimulus money.
Little One... I hope
February 4, 2009 - 19:07 ET by bigtimerLittle One...
I hope nobody does.
Govt. needs to keep out of this...they are the cause of this in the first place.
Got it
February 4, 2009 - 19:09 ET by guttermouthI wasn't talking to you, little condescending one.
I wasn't talking to you,
February 4, 2009 - 19:13 ET by bretzysdudeI wasn't talking to you, either, but you're still full of crap.
I know this is off topic...
February 4, 2009 - 16:46 ET by BKeyser...but I wanted to point out an AP piece I just ran across about a car bomb in Arkansas. Here's the headline:
Bomb critically wounds head of Ark. medical board
Here'a how the article begins:
And here's how it ends:
I read the entire article (I'm a big boy and did it all by myself...) and I could not find another reference to any political party anywhere else. Can anyone tell me why the last paragraph was included? Color me baffled...
Stunning shallowness
February 4, 2009 - 16:47 ET by KC MulvilleThis is like asking the Dalai Lama what his favorite movie is, and the answer is "Porky's." You were hoping for something more.
That's what they really want, someone to break free from the restraints of logic and emote like hell. Never mind the serious and difficult choices ... they want Obama to look off into the sunset and espouse every liberal canard they can come up with. They want emotion, which is why they don't bother with logic.
The ACLU is devoted to the Bill of Rights, how could anyone object? It's because the ACLU has a screwball liberal view of what the Bill of Rights is all about. That's why.
This happened years ago...too many years ago...;(
February 6, 2009 - 13:26 ET by Tailgunner...but I actually called an ACLU office once and engaged them in a debate over the Second Amendment.
No matter how reasoned and substantial my argument was, the ACLU flack would not budge from their official party line that Americans did not have an individual right to keep and bear arms.
American Civil 'Liberties' Union, my @ss. These people are full-time intellectual apologists and foot soldiers for socialism.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
ACLU is a fraud
February 6, 2009 - 13:36 ET by Sergeant ROCKThey only exist to promote socialism, not protecting rights granted by the Constitution.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Libs believe Hollywood is
February 4, 2009 - 16:49 ET by mattmLibs believe Hollywood is real life.
No kidding....a lot of them
February 4, 2009 - 19:42 ET by motherbeltNo kidding....a lot of them thought Martin Sheen should be President because he was so good on West Wing!
real professional
February 4, 2009 - 17:12 ET by right of waymaybe next time someone interviews brian williams they could ask him if he ever does anything like will ferrell's character in the movie anchorman, like not wear pants while doing the news or get drunk drinking scotch while on the air. that would be real professional.
The American President Starring Barak Obama
February 4, 2009 - 17:45 ET by Chris NormanOMG, wow, oh, geez - like Roxie Hart in Chicago these people really do see reality as a fantasy movie or television show. We used to say that the TV series, The West Wing and the movie The American President were liberal fantasy versions of reality and now we know we were right. Now, with the this twist, these people have officially gone into la-la land. What's next, the NYPD and NYDA should be run like the ones in Law & Order?
The "Mainstream" Media: By liberals. For liberals.
Seriously, it's only an
February 4, 2009 - 18:51 ET by balboaSeriously, it's only an analogy.
Really?
February 4, 2009 - 19:49 ET by BlondeWhen did Brian tell you that?
Right before Social
February 4, 2009 - 20:24 ET by balboaRight before Social Studies.
It's called...
February 5, 2009 - 00:10 ET by MightyMouth..."Socialist Studies: Making Amerika better", now days Amigo.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Balboa: "Liberal apologist
February 5, 2009 - 11:48 ET by Chris NormanBalboa: "Liberal apologist to the stars"
The "Mainstream" Media: By liberals. For liberals.
Obama Turning to a Movie Character as a Model
February 4, 2009 - 17:43 ET by jcharlesWell, "The One" is clearly over his head. He hasn't a clue as to what to do. His first executive decision in his entire life was made three weeks ago! He delegated the "stimulas bill" to Nancy Pelosi because he was clueless. Now he's stuck with her deranged sense of government and is looking to the Republicans to bail him out. What to do?. . .What to do? I know, turn to hollywood to provide your presidential model -- Michael Douglas!!!. The Liberals have gone totally off the deep end! They are proving Marxists (AKA Democrats) are much better at criticizing executive decisions and policy than making it.
Obama imitate a movie
February 4, 2009 - 18:55 ET by celatorObama imitate a movie president? Good grief, isn't Obama already enough of a fictional character?
For liberal Democrats and the Old Media, everything is crisis, chaos, calamity and catastrophe. That justifies stealing your property and liberties.
This is clearly political
February 4, 2009 - 17:57 ET by ConservativeRexThis is clearly political pay-back. Hook another entire generation on government hand-outs. Nothing has changed. This is the dispensing of the "war on poverty" all at once.
Except, we'll always have poverty, it's only going to rich liberals and as Obami says..."what in the hell are you doing here commenting on NewsBusters when you ought to be at work paying for all of this"!
Well...if Michael Douglas
February 4, 2009 - 18:13 ET by Radar_OneWell...if Michael Douglas came to my house to take my handguns...we'd have a little issue there. Also, I am getting quite ill at the fact that this session of Congress will be the one that effectively turns us into a SOCIALIST nation by "nationalizing bad banks" Also, since when does the state need to come in and bail out failing buisnesses?
Barack Obama= Half Honkey...ALL Donkey
Because...
February 4, 2009 - 18:17 ET by StarAZPresident Junior can't start over because he has not started. His staff did that payback bill and now he is blaming it on Pelosi (I can't stand her either). Heaven knows how those tax cheats all got past the vetters--actually, we don't need heaven...I read they thought Americans would be so happy to have these people "solve" their problems, they wouldn't care. Ooops--did care. Hmmm. Well, now according to that wan little twit Evan Thomas, he doesn't like these daily accountings, pressers, communications. Well, boo-double hoo. You are president now--let's see some hustle, and I don't mean passing cookies to Republicans to win them over. How lame was that--yet some of them bought it. Mmmm, good cookie.
He was just on TV---AGAIN!!!--signing that child health bill. We can look our trusting kids in the eye when we tuck them in and they know we (well, the G, aided by smokers everywhere) are taking care of them. What rot.
<blockquote>Yes, I am a
February 4, 2009 - 18:47 ET by Darasen<blockquote>Yes, I am a card carrying member of the ACLU, ...this is an organization whose sole
purpose is to defend the bill of rights,...</blockquote>
Erm ok Since when is this true of the ACLU ? Let us pretend it is.
<blockquote>You cannot address crime prevention without getting rid of assault
weapons and handguns. I consider them a threat to national security and
I will go door-to-door if I have to but I’m going convince Americans
that I’m right and I’m going to get the guns.</blockquote>
Aren't these two statements completely opposed. I hated this movie watching it, that final bit was cinched it.
I'm pretty sure those two
February 4, 2009 - 20:31 ET by JasonCI'm pretty sure those two statements are only contradictory if all those well-regulated militias (to which the constitution makes crucial,unmistakable, yet oft-ignored reference) are stripped of their guns.
I sure hope you'll never be
February 5, 2009 - 09:45 ET by contraryI sure hope you'll never be in a position of power...
http://www.constitution.org/mil/cs_milit.htm
"I don't have time for this. You all can continue your co-dependency posts and make yourselves feel all chummy... Frankly, you all don't represent where America is going and you might as well get used to it."
--The Dooper
A smattering of comments
February 5, 2009 - 17:39 ET by JasonCA smattering of comments from some dramatically lesser-known founding fathers about the definition of militia doesn't hold water.
The Lee/Smith remark makes perfect sense. It iterates that the militia shall be made up of able-bodied men who can handle firearms. Fair enough.
The Coxe quotation also makes perfect sense. Congress shall not have the authority to take guns from the militia. Fine.
The quotations coming after these two are irrelevant because they were stated well after the 2nd Amendment was drafted.
What you ignore, as do most hysterical 2nd Amendment abolutists (and I'm not accusing you of being one, just arguing like one at the moment), is the well-regulated part. Even if we concur that a militia is indeed made up of "the people", an individual insisting upon the right to purchase unlimited weapons with unlimited ballistic capabilities to keep in his closet while he prays for a break-in so he can smoke someone with immunity, has little to do with either the quotations you cite or the phrasing of the amendment itself.
Furthermore, Article I of the constitution in fact gives congress authority over said militia.
According to Webster:
Militia:
1 a: a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency. b: a body of citizens organized for military service
2: the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service
Now, while I'll agree that one of the remarks on your link makes an abstract point about the militia being composed of individuals, it seems obvious to me that there is nonetheless no such thing as a "one-man militia".
Wrong again Jason
February 5, 2009 - 17:48 ET by cocodrieWhen the constitution was written the militia was not a military controlled by the government.
Militias were private citizens led by private citizens, who provided their own arms, food and equipment.
Jesus Loves You
Militia
February 5, 2009 - 17:52 ET by LionKingMilita: An army composed of ordinary citizens rather than professional soldiers.
Lion and Coco, I'm not sure
February 5, 2009 - 18:50 ET by JasonCLion and Coco, I'm not sure what your respective points are. How does this change the fact that 99% of gun owners are not part of a "well-regulated militia" and that those who are tend to be scary, paranoid, Timothy McVeigh-types...?
→ Yo Jason
February 5, 2009 - 18:55 ET by Cool ArrowDid Timothy McVeigh shoot somebody?
Guess I should've followed that case more closely.
Which militia did he belong to?
Cool, by this pithy analogy
February 6, 2009 - 20:08 ET by JasonCCool, by this pithy analogy I refer simply to those who are particularly paranoid with regard to the government. Perhaps Dale Gribble would be a better figural stand-in...
'Pithy analogy'
February 6, 2009 - 20:27 ET by choselife3xA good speech therapist could help you with that lisp, Jason.
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Good one.
February 6, 2009 - 20:32 ET by JasonCGood one.
jason
February 5, 2009 - 19:03 ET by LionKing"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed." -- 2nd Amendment
What purpose would a government sanctioned militia serve to secure a free state?
What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms" do you find confusing?
Granted, the sentence structure is unique in terms of modern usage, but that clause is crystal clear.
jason is a dumbass..
February 5, 2009 - 19:08 ET by Sergeant ROCKWhat part part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" doesn't he understand? Do I need to post the definition of people?
Nobody is that stupid, are they?
Bolton/KEYES 2012
What do you not understand
February 5, 2009 - 20:33 ET by JasonCWhat do you not understand about what grammarians call a "dependent clause"? Awfully convenient to only cite the latter half for us, sarge. Convenient and typical.
Individuals owning unlimited, unregulated firearms - for whatever reason - does not make a well-regulated militia.
Don't get me wrong; I support your right to own guns if you wish to. I am not in favor of "going door to door" to round them up. But even more than that, I support the constitution and an adherence to precision in language; and it is just plain incorrect to argue that the 2nd amendment - again, usually by ignoring the first half of it - means a person should be able to buy assault rifles at WalMart and that a 2-week screening period is an affront to the founding fathers.
Kind of like what you did..
February 5, 2009 - 20:43 ET by Sergeant ROCK.. by not mentioning the part I mentioned, huh? Thank you, Mr. Pot.
You can't have it both ways. You can't say that gun ownership is only for an organized militia while at the same time say you can only get pre-approved weaponry as dictated by gun-hating liberals.
As for the latter part, this is typical liberal gobbledeegook. Assault weapons account for fewer that 1% of gun-related crimes. Funny, how liberals wring their hands over the possibility that a crime may be commited with an assault weapon when at the same they are typical gutless when it comes to punishing the offenders.
Talk about affronting somebody? You need to read what the Founding Fathers said what the Second Amendment was about and for. Hint: Nothing about duck hunting.
Bolton/KEYES 2012
I believe I've addressed
February 6, 2009 - 16:41 ET by JasonCI believe I've addressed most of your concerns below. As to the liberal gobbledeegook meme, we're discussing linguistics and history, not crime rates as a function of weapon-type. I mentioned assault rifles only as a hyperbolic reference to the most hysterical sort of 2nd Amendment absolutists.
The funny thing is, I have no real interest in the typical liberal side of this issue. I've consistently argued on this site that people should be allowed to own as many guns as they wish, if that's what they really want to spend their money on - though I also have no problem with background checks and reasonable waiting periods.
But I also believe that the founding fathers were masterful when it comes to precise language, and I can never resist taking a person down a peg or two when they start histrionically citing the (second half of) the second amendment as justification for a laissez-faire gun policy.
Many Americans DO own 'assault rifles' and machine guns!
February 6, 2009 - 20:10 ET by TailgunnerIt is already perfectly legal for Americans to own machine guns, destructive devices, fifty-caliber rifles, silencers and sawed-off shotguns.
All you have to do is fill out the appropriate paperwork and pay the proper tax. In some cases the tax is as low as five dollars.
The only limiting factor is the laws of certain cities, counties and states.
"I can never resist taking a person down a peg or two when they start histrionically citing the (second half of) the second amendment as justification for a laissez-faire gun policy."
Your conceit is only surpassed by your utter and complete ignorance of constitutional history. I have already demonstrated to you that a militia was not the only reason for an individual right to keep and bear arms.
Need more evidence that 'militia' was not a requirement to own a firearm?
"The Supreme Court (District of Columbia Et al. v. Heller) holds in part:
Please do a little more research before you insert your Birkenstock deeper into your mouth.
Game, set, match.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
Perhaps you should remove
February 6, 2009 - 20:23 ET by JasonCPerhaps you should remove your hobnailed boots from your mouth (no, I don't really believe you're a fascist, just following up your own metaphor; have you not seen my post that I'm in favor of an armed citizenry? Does that sound like the opinion of a birkenstock enthusiast?)
How does a 2008 supreme court decision bear upon the semantics of an 18th-century document? That's exactly the kind of judicial-activism/interpretive acrobatics that every conservative I know decries on a regular basis. You must think the founding fathers would have heartily approved of Roe v. Wade too, right? I mean, the supreme court ruled in favor of it...
Enough with the sports metaphors. Give me an argument that I can't refute in 30 seconds and maybe I'll consider your perspective on the matter. You'll have to wait til tomorrow for my rebuttal though, it's time to pour some bourbon over ice and then head out to Tribeca for supper.
The Constitution IS an 18th century document!
February 6, 2009 - 21:03 ET by Tailgunner"How does a 2008 supreme court decision bear upon the semantics of an 18th-century document?"
Utter, breathtaking ignorance. I cannot believe you just wrote that.
The Supreme Court was asked to decide the question of whether Americans had a guaranteed right to keep and bear arms unrelated to service in a militia under the Second Amendment.
Are you saying that the Supreme Court should ignore the Second Amendment when interpreting it? After all, the Constitution IS an 18th century document!
And I've already established that in interpreting the Constitution, Jefferson emphasized that 18th century debates, documents and other writings were vital to determining the intent of the Framers.
This is called the 'originalist' or 'strict constructionist' school.
He did not say to take a poll, or ask the New York Times, or allow the UN to submit a position paper to the court. He said to go back to the time the Constitution was written.
The Court did exactly that...and this is the only conclusion that every justice should have reached...unless they chose to ignore the evidence, as every liberal justice did. (Talk about judicial activism.)
It's interesting that while you protest that you support an individual right to own firearms, you regard the Supreme Court's decision in re Heller, which held that there is an individual right to own firearms, as 'judicial activism'.
Should we remove the 'separation of church and state' from our society? After all, it's found nowhere in the First Amendment.
And where do you find the right to abortion in the Fourth Amendment? (You cite Roe v Wade as an example of judicial activism. It was an example of liberal judicial activism.)
Again you disparage the evidence and pick and choose your arguments based on the issue.
If ignorance was a religion, you would have been canonized long ago.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
Stop hyperventilating. My
February 6, 2009 - 23:34 ET by JasonCStop hyperventilating. My point is simply that an interpretation made in 2008 does not retroactively confer definitive meaning on what was intended in the 18th century; whether the issue is guns, religion, abortion, or what have you.
Chief Justice Jason says Supreme Court is WRONG in re Heller.
February 7, 2009 - 11:55 ET by TailgunnerAre you saying that the Supreme Court's Heller decision is illegitimate? Were they wrong, Jason?
Have you even read it to find out how their decision was reached?
It is the 'interpretation' of 18th century documents and writings relative to the Constitution that gives 'definitive meaning' to Supreme Court decisions today...not the reverse.
(At least to those who still honor the Constitution as written...and don't spend entire legal careers trying to find ways to circumvent it.)
I've shown you twice Jefferson's (yes, that Jefferson) quote
Why can't you be honest and admit you don't support an individual right to own firearms? You seem obsessed with discrediting the Second Amendment to the point of dismissing any and all evidence supporting it...even the conclusive Heller decision. What is your goal?
I have given you quote after quote after quote from the framers of the Constitution that conclusively show that gun ownership is an individual right and that militia membership was not required to exercise this right.
You persist in ignoring, disparaging and attacking this evidence because it conflicts with your ignorant point of view.
You could have found every single source I found, and many more, to support the individual right to keep and bear arms. Yet you choose not to.
I challenge you to research and find a quote from the Federalist Papers, or Jefferson, Mason or Patrick Henry's writings, or anywhere in the Constitutional debates that either denies that individual right, or limits gun ownership to membership in a militia.
Chief Justice??
February 7, 2009 - 11:58 ET by Sergeant ROCKI thought the 'C' was for communist.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Correction to above post
February 7, 2009 - 12:09 ET by TailgunnerI've shown you twice Jefferson's (yes, that Jefferson) quote regarding the interpretation of Constitutional questions in which he recommends looking for the 'probable meaning' based on contemporary writings and the 'spirit' of the times.
Jason is ignorant of the history of the Bill of Rights.
February 6, 2009 - 11:35 ET by TailgunnerThe Founding Fathers who wrote the Bill of Rights also wrote reams of letters and papers during the ratification process to explain these rights to ordinary citizens.
There are many quotes like these if you're seriously interested in the issue. I guarantee that you will never search for them because you're not willing to change your mind.
"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people ... To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason (who opposed ratification of the Constitution without the Bill of Rights)
"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms…" -- Samuel Adams, Debates of the Massachusetts Convention of 1788, printed in "Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts", at 86-87 (Peirce & Hale, eds., Boston, 1850)
They left no doubt that the Second Amendment guarantees every citizen the individual right to keep and bear arms.
And before you claim that it doesn't count because it's not actually in the Bill of Rights...remember that the 'separation of church and state' liberals claim is a mandate of the First Amendment is not in the First Amendment. It was in a private letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists in 1802...over ten years after the US Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, was ratified.
This is the same Thomas Jefferson who also wrote,"[A]ll power is inherent in the people ... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed," -- Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Cartwright, 1824
Do you support a two week screening period before you are allowed to write a letter to the editor? Do you support the idea that a person is automatically assumed to be a criminal and that it's his duty to prove that he is not? Gun owners are treated like this every time they purchase a gun.
Do you agree with the idea that a person should be prevented from exercising a Constitutional right merely because he might abuse that right? How far are you willing to go in the attempt? Are you willing to lock him up?
Liberals all screamed hysterically that Bush was 'shredding' the Constitution. But the only people I see making a frontal attack on the American citizens' individual right to keep and bear arms are always liberals.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
Founding Fathers
February 6, 2009 - 11:42 ET by Sergeant ROCKThere are numerous quotes as well specifically stating that an armed population was this best defense against a tyrannical government.
What's funny is that they attempt to distort the true meaning of it while at the same time argue that if you read between the lines of the Constitution, you'll find such things as abortion, gay marriage, etc.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Since we're discussing the
February 6, 2009 - 16:35 ET by JasonCSince we're discussing the 2nd, not 1st, amendment, I think I will in fact invoke the fact that the letters written by some of the founding fathers cannot reasonably be projected upon the quite straightforward language of the canonized amendment itself.
Nonetheless, you seem to be misunderstanding what I'm arguing. We are on the same page insofar as a militia being comprised of "the people". But I don't see that translating to private ownership of weapons unless said owner is willing to contribute to the group effort that necessarily makes an actual militia. "Well-regulated", in my view, does not apply to a town in which a high-than-statistically-usual portion of the citizenry happens to own guns. See my remark below about structured leadership and specified purpose; and that's before we get into the fact that a real militia would conduct training exercises and other such para-military activities.
It takes effort to remain ignorant...but Jason's up to the task.
February 6, 2009 - 19:50 ET by TailgunnerGo back to my post. Reread the quotations, especially Samuel Adams' : "..or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms…".
Or this one: "No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334 (Julian P. Boyd, Ed., 1950).
Or this one: "The great object is that every man be armed ... Everyone who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot, Debates at 386.
Do you see any reference to a 'militia' in these phrases? Many similar writings had absolutely no reference or relationship to a 'militia'.
A 'well-regulated militia' was, and is one reason, but not the only reason, for the average citizen to own firearms.
You are grasping at straws here to justify your belief that American citizens should not be able to own firearms. And at every turn we have been able to demolish your argument.
So what do you do? You deny and disparage the evidence.
Who are you to decide which of the Founding Fathers' writings has force and effect on the Bill of Rights and which do not? Which of these passages are learned, authoritative comments and which are frivolous, meaningless scribbling?
Like the Bill of Rights, you can't pick the ones you like and disparage the rest.
There are many like you who try to justify the door-to-door disarmament of the American public in preparation for something more sinister.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
How does it 'take effort to
February 6, 2009 - 20:06 ET by JasonCHow does it 'take effort to remain ignorant'? That makes little sense.
I am reading the amendment itself. You are the one grasping at straws by citing decontextualized quotations of the founding fathers. I am reading the amendment itself. Why would they include a clause relating to an organized militia if it didn't apply? Your line of argument would be like me saying that Obama's stimulus plan is not what it seems to be solely because of an e-mail that some senate democrat sent to his constituents.
There are many like you who try to justify the door-to-door disarmament of the American public
You obviously haven't bothered to read my earlier comments. I am in favor of a lawfully armed citizenry; I disagree that the 2nd amendment is an ironclad endorsement of it. I am more interested in grammar and semantics than NRA-sanctioned bluster.
Jason hides his anti-Second Amendment views again
February 6, 2009 - 20:36 ET by TailgunnerGetting to you, Jason?
If you support the right to keep and bear arms absent a militia, why do you try so hard to invalidate the Second Amendment by harping on a nonexistent 'militia' requirement?
I have provided you several passages from the same people who wrote the Constitution. These passages were specifically intended to explain these amendments to the average American who was then debating the ratification of the new document.
The quotations I provided you are so direct that context would not change their meaning. You're denying and disparaging clear evidence again.
In what context, for example, would the phrase, "No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms." mean anything other than that? (Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776.)
Once again you spout off with your delusion that only the Amendment itself is gospel and the contemporary writings and debates are without force.
Thomas Jefferson (you know, that 'separation of church and state' guy....how come liberals quote a passage from a private letter as gospel but ignore its absence from the First Amendment? Sounds like more hypocrisy to me.) must have had you in mind when he wrote:
"On every question of construction carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." --Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 1823. ME 15:449
In other words, instead of twisting and distorting the language of the Second Amendment, try reading the history at the time it was written into the constitution.
Kind of like I've been doing for the last few posts.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
They are not "without
February 7, 2009 - 16:35 ET by JasonCThey are not "without force", but they are not part of the Constitution either. A legal document is what it is; it is not shaped by known attitudes of those who are bound by it or who drafted it. It's a work of utter precision, which is why those who successfully create them - whether it's a Social Contract or a pre-nup - are usually extraordinarily good technical writers.
More liberal double standards.
February 7, 2009 - 20:12 ET by TailgunnerJason, you have a gift for making yourself look foolish.
You say the historical record of the Second Amendment is irrelevant to its meaning.
Then why is the phrase 'separation of church and state' always brought up by liberals in a First Amendment debate? Where do you find those words in the text of the Amendment?
And where is the word "abortion" found in the Fourth Amendment?
Those words appear in neither of these Amendments. In fact, Jason, you know where the 'separation of church and state' came from.
Liberals engaged in a legal Manhattan Project to manufacture new constitutional rights from distorted and 'decontextualized' (thank you Jason) historical texts.
So, Jason, even when liberals were engaging in massive judicial activism, they found it necessary to use historical constitutional documents as cover.
Apparently you didn't get the memo.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
Jason
February 7, 2009 - 17:02 ET by cocodrieHow much good would it do to call up unarmed citizens as a militia? Maybe you should be more interested in common sense than in grammar.
All your militia could do is throw semantics at the enemy. Of course your militia would have a rediculously large supply of BS.
But, then again, that would be against the Geneva convention so you would still be unarmed.
Jesus Loves You
You're wrong
February 7, 2009 - 11:24 ET by Sergeant ROCKYou may not 'see' it, but the Founding Fathers did. And that's what's important - not what you see or feel.
There's ample evidence beyond the amendment itself to support the individual right intent. But do feel free to collect them from individuals if you like.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Sorry, Jason...
February 6, 2009 - 12:00 ET by R D Helm...but at the time the Constitution was written, local militia's were technically under government control, which is why the 2nd Amendment says specifically, "...the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
Notice it didn't say the "right of the MILITIA to keep and bear arms," nor did it say we needed to have the government's permission to do so, either.
Damn, that was easy. :-)
-Dave
Our clueless political leaders are about to drive us all over a cliff. The time to HITM is now-before we go over.
lol.. Too easy indeed!
February 6, 2009 - 12:02 ET by Sergeant ROCKCheck... and ... MATE!
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Check but not mate. This
February 6, 2009 - 16:29 ET by JasonCCheck but not mate. First of all, I've already made reference to congressional control of militia in the late 18th C.
This continues to ignore the dependent clause which leads into the more-popular independent clause. The amendment, taken literally, suggests that the purpose for which individuals should be allowed to keep and bear arms is to collectively form a well-regulated militia. As Paul Fussell puts it in his outstanding essay on the topic, if we read the 2nd amendment to the letter, the law should be that the purchase of a gun signifies de facto enrollment in an organized, locally-situated group with a hierarchial leadership structure and clearly-defined mission statement regarding homeland defense.
I'll move my king to e4...
Checkmated
February 7, 2009 - 11:28 ET by Sergeant ROCKNope. Like the other poster stated: ..it doesn't say "right of the MILITIA to keep and bear arms,"..
You insist on ignoring that fact. Therefore, you are checkmated. Thus, your move is invalid along with the fact that there is no 'e4' anyway.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
So if I say "Eggs being
February 7, 2009 - 12:53 ET by JasonCSo if I say "Eggs being necessary to the cooking of an omelet, my trip to the grocery store will be made with due haste", does the second clause not rather definitively suggest that my grocery trip will be to purchase eggs and that those eggs will be used in an omelet.
My apologies to the genius of the founding fathers for comparing their brilliantly rendered legal prose to omelet-making, but it was just plain necessary to show how not-that-complicated this issue really is.
Of course there's an e4. What kind chess grid do you use?
Still checkmated
February 7, 2009 - 13:04 ET by Sergeant ROCKCute witicisms do not discount the fact that you have still failed to prove that the 2nd is not an individual right. Are you suggesting that you're smarter than everyone else in the country that has failed to prove this not an individual right which would have led to conviscations nationwide?
I think not. Just another foaming-at-the-mouth anti-gun liberal.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
The reason that the 2nd
February 7, 2009 - 14:48 ET by JasonCThe reason that the 2nd Amendment is not enforced according to its obvious literal meaning is that the NRA is a lobbying powerhouse and has won over enough supporters with its iconic "from my cold, dead hands" style of socio-political rhetoric.
You are apparently incapable of reading my other posts. I'm not anti-gun. I believe individuals should be able to own guns without belonging to a militia, because it's common sense and because I'm a hardcore civil libertarian. But I disagree that that right is articulated as such in the Bill of Rights. Just as I am pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, but I think it's absurd to suggest that the Bill of Rights in any way makes reference, implicit or otherwise, to those issues. I suppose my point is that the right to individual gun ownership can be made on ethical and practical grounds other than hammering away at, and attempting to revise, the constitution.
Having it both ways..
February 7, 2009 - 14:56 ET by Sergeant ROCKlol.. yeah, that's why there are so many anti-gun democRATS in Congress right now. Give me a break already!
The only one attempting to 'revise' the Constitution is YOU! And I could care less about whether or not I receive your blessing to own a firearm. I don't need it - it's my right guaranteed by the Second Amendment.
Your head is completely esconced in your rectum - period!
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Good evening Jason
February 7, 2009 - 15:19 ET by cocodrieA person is either conservative or liberal.
A person is either male or female.
A person is either patriotic or treasonous.
A person is either alive or dead.
There is no inbetween, only lame excuses.
Why are all liberals except Alan Colmes ashamed to admit they are liberal?
Prenne courage, mon amie. ADMIT YOUI ARE A LIBERAL, a flaming liberal in need of a .45 cal. Preparation H suppository.
Instant relief awaits you.
Jesus Loves You
Hi cocodrie
February 7, 2009 - 15:29 ET by shawn228I hate affirmative action, welfare, most abortions, the fairness doctrine and believe we can drive whatever vehicle we see fit, but at the same time I believe in Univeral healthcare and euthanasia.
Does that make me liberal or conservative?
He had my vote
Good evening Shawn
February 7, 2009 - 15:55 ET by cocodrieThat makes you a liberal.
Euthanasia is deliberately killing a human being. All abortions are the murder of a defenseless baby.
Universal health care will open the door to inferior and inefficient health care with long waiting periods for treatment. With an open mind, research the health care in countries that have universal health care and you will see the shortcomings.
When was the last time you saw a government official at a free clinic? Under universal health care our leaders will receive proper care but the average citizen will be told "Take an aspirin and don't bother to call me in the morning. Again research the cuuntries with universal health care.
Jesus Loves You
It makes you dumb.Have
February 7, 2009 - 19:43 ET by TailgunnerIt makes you dumb.
Have you seen what universal healthcare has done in other countries? British citizens (those who can afford it, anyway) fly to other countries for proper and timely medical treatment (it's called 'medical tourism') because they are forbidden to pay for it themselves in their own country.
British medical officials actually advocate denying care to those who live, in their judgment, 'unhealthy lifestyles' such as smoking, drinking, or being overweight. They are willing to sentence people to death merely for living politically incorrect lifestyles.
How much are you willing to bet that this attitude doesn't influence behind-the-scenes decisions within the NHS?
Canadian doctors moonlight in the US because Canadian citizens enter the US in droves to get quality medical treatment without typically long waits and rationing that literally means a death sentence to many.
And under universal healthcare you cannot sue negligent doctors or government officials.
Euthanasia is murder, pure and simple. If a doctor performs it it's especially monstrous.
If I'm going to do myself in I won't need a doctor's help.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
tailgunner
February 7, 2009 - 21:11 ET by shawn228I am not debating if euthanisia or univeral health care is right or wrong, I am saying that I believe in issues on both sides of the aisle.
I don't believe in affirmitive action, so that would automatically make me evil in the minds of liberals
Yikes I am a political hermaphrodite!
I think choselife3x has her new tagline.
He had my vote
"I am a political hermaphrodite"
February 7, 2009 - 21:28 ET by choselife3xGenius.
You know shawn, the *ahem* PROBLEM with hermaphrodites, is neither (organ) is functional.
If you try to be both then neither is effective. Come to the light shawn, we'll take care of you! (jasonC will euthanise your @ss.)
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Ah, Sarge and Coco, our
February 7, 2009 - 16:20 ET by JasonCAh, Sarge and Coco, our resident class act posters who can't form a cogent argument for beans and compensate with hemmorhoid jokes.
Sarge, you're simply off-base. You're right, you don't need my permission to purchase firearms, you need the permission of your state's laws governing such matters. However, as you may recall, my opinion on the matter is the reason you started posting arguments against me. Now that you've finally gotten it through your head that I'm not against individual gun ownership, my opinion doesn't matter? Fascinating. Nonetheless, I will maintain that unless you're willing to submit to paramilitary training with an organized (Read: "Well-regulated") group of your peers, it's not the 2nd Amendment per se that gives you the right to keep and bear.
Coco, that's just flat-out the stupidest post I've ever seen. Not all ideologies can be reduced to a diametric allegiance to either Rush Limbaugh or Michael Moore; and those that think they can be are the kind of easily-brainwashed doofuses that keep those two demagogues fat and wealthy.
JasonCommunist
February 7, 2009 - 16:35 ET by Sergeant ROCKlol! Yeah, you're the master alright. You fail and continue to failto prove that the 2nd is NOT an individual right, revisionist nonsense aside. And save your self-adulation for your Kossack buddies.
State laws cannot trump the Constitution, genius - what part of 'shall not be infringed' are you having trouble with? It is the Second Amendment, not the State, that guarantees that right, idiot.
Again, you're talking out of both sides of your @ss. On the one you swear up and down that you support an individual's right, but then drone on and on about 'well regulated' and that you need to be in a milita to have that right - you can't have it both ways. But then, I believe you're a liar anyway on that point. Also, you totally ignore what the Founding Fathers wrote on the issue at the time of it's inception. So, your claptrap doesn't hold water in spite of your word wizardy.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
What does communism have to
February 7, 2009 - 16:42 ET by JasonCWhat does communism have to do with anything?
Actually, your state does make the laws which govern what kinds of guns you can purchase there, where you can purchase them, and what kind of waiting period is involved. Why do you think it's different in Texas than in New England, for instance? The 2nd Amendment abstractly guarantees a right for the people to bear arms, even though you continue to be the revisionary one by only citing bits and pieces of it.
Also, you totally ignore what the Founding Fathers wrote on the issue at the time of it's inception.
Glad you brought up this little smoke-and-mirrors gem again. I just posted on that above. Unfortunately for those of you clinging to this little argument, a legal document is not altered by the opinions of some of its signatories. It's a precise piece of writing and its words are what matter. I don't give a s**t is Jefferson had a Barrett .50 caliber in his closet; it doesn't change a thing about the language of the amendment. As my silly, but quite relevant, omelet analogy demonstrates.
Where did I say I was "the master"? I'm pleased with myself for not resorting to 2nd-grade toilet humor, but that's all...
The pot calling the kettle black
February 7, 2009 - 17:02 ET by Sergeant ROCKYou sure are full of yourself, aren't you? Your self-flattery is nauseating. And no, that would be you 'citing bits and pieces'. Like the other poster stated: it doesn't say 'the right of the MILITIA to keep and bear Arms'.
As for the latter part of your argument, I'll bet you're the first to drag out the Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists to support the fictitious 'seperation of Church and state' argument. You're trying to apply a 20th century definition of a word to the word used in the 18th century. Talk about 'smoke and mirrors'? Your argument using the .50 rifle confirms that you're just another ignorant, fear-mongering anti-gunner. How many crimes have been committed using a Barret??? At about $5 a roun, not the most economical round to go around doing drive-by's, etc. Nevermind, it's enormous size and weight. Your irrational fear has been exposed.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Yes Jason I am
February 7, 2009 - 16:50 ET by cocodrieYes Jason I am stupid enough to believe that words have a specific meaning.
You say you are in FAVOR of my individual right to gun ownership but are AGAINST my individual right to gun ownership. How stupid is that?
You believe that you can give new meanings of your choice to any words. You also believe you can rewrite history any way you desire.
The militia in colonial times were composed of individual private citizens called up by private citizens. They were not connected to or controlled by government.
Their service to the government or termination of that service was entirely the decision of the militia leaders. Some actually left government service as a unit during the revolutionary war against Washington's wishes. The right to bear arms was in no way connected to government service.
If you had at least a glimmer of intelligence my post would not seem stupid. It will be a start when you grasp hold of the fact that there is a difference between conservatism and liberalism.
If you were smart you would not be a liberal.
Jesus Loves You
You are laughably
February 7, 2009 - 16:55 ET by JasonCYou are laughably wrong.
I am in favor of your right to individual gun ownership.
I do not, however, believe that this right is necessarily what the 2nd Amendment guarantees.
And the point of the post to which I was responding was that every single social issue is black-an-white/right-and-wrong/conservative-or-liberal. That is the narrow, punditesque idea I was calling stupid.
Everything else in your post I have refuted elsewhere in this thread.
Jason, tete durre
February 7, 2009 - 17:25 ET by cocodrieThe individual right to arms is not to be infringed. you oppose that right by saying it does not exist.
RIGHT is RIGHT and WRONG is WRONG. The points you give are excuses to do wrong instead of right.
Conservative and liberal are opposite belief systems. In between is compromise.
I DO NOT COMPROMISE.
Jesus Loves You
And Jason is just 'laughable'.
February 7, 2009 - 18:56 ET by Tailgunner"I do not, however, believe that this right is necessarily what the 2nd Amendment guarantees."
What you 'believe' is utterly irrelevant. That's exactly what the Second Amendment guarantees.
The Supreme Court has ruled conclusively that there is an individual right to keep and bear arms which is unrelated to service in a militia.
This has been repeatedly pointed out to you in this forum, yet you are obsessed with ignoring and disparaging the evidence.
Blind stupidity in a debate doesn't substitute for reason and facts. But you persist nonetheless.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
Jason earns his Ph.D in ignorance.
February 7, 2009 - 23:05 ET by Tailgunner"You're right, you don't need my permission to purchase firearms, you need the permission of your state's laws governing such matters."
I need no one's permission to purchase and own firearms.
This demonstrates that you have no understanding of the Second Amendment whatsoever.
"...The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.' (I don't care if the first part says, "Mary had a little lamb".) Our rights shall not be infringed by any government whatsoever.
"Nonetheless, I will maintain that unless you're willing to submit to paramilitary training with an organized (Read: "Well-regulated") group of your peers, it's not the 2nd Amendment per se that gives you the right to keep and bear [arms] .
Amazing. The Second Amendment says "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"...and Jason says the Amendment doesn't give you the right to keep and bear arms? Simply amazing.
At some point in time unintentional ignorance gives way to deliberate stupidity. You crossed that line a couple posts ago.
Again you ignore the historical evidence, including recent Supreme Court decisions, that conclusively states that there is an individual right to keep and bear arms unrelated to service in a militia.
And Mr Constitutional Scholar, once again, tries to lecture us on the proper training of a 'well-regulated' militia.
Let's go back once again to the historical record.
This is a little long but it's important to show the context so Jason can't attack it.
"The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious, if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, or even a week, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss. It would form an annual deduction from the productive labor of the country, to an amount which, calculating upon the present numbers of the people, would not fall far short of the whole expense of the civil establishments of all the States. To attempt a thing which would abridge the mass of labor and industry to so considerable an extent, would be unwise: and the experiment, if made, could not succeed, because it would not long be endured. Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped" – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No.2
'Paramilitary exercises' such as Generalissimo Jason C claims are necessary to maintain a militia are thus ruled as unworkable by far better men than he.
'hardcore civil libertarian'
February 7, 2009 - 14:57 ET by choselife3xWhere do you stand on the death penalty?
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
That it's an issue to be
February 7, 2009 - 16:12 ET by JasonCThat it's an issue to be decided by the states. I also think it's too easy, as far as the convicted criminal is concerned; life imprisonment would be a far more suitable punishment, practicalities aside. Unfortunately, it's an incredibly complex moral issue that cannot be hashed out in a few dashed-off sentences. But I don't have a major problem with it; it's not a topic on which I feel strongly enough to argue the way I do on certain other topics.
I do think it's not comparable to abortion (as conservatives often make it out to be), because the right to abortion involves an individual's right to choose to terminate something contained within that individual's body. "Individual" is the key word. The death penalty involves an execution carried out by The State. If The State were to allow the victims' families to personally choose whether the convict should be killed or spared, it would perhaps be more analogous.
Sorry Jason, murder is murder
February 7, 2009 - 16:22 ET by cocodrieSorry Jason, murder is murder, no matter how, when or where. The intentional, unjustified taking of a human life is MURDER. You are attempting to split hairs but you fell off the head of your pin.
Jesus Loves You
Unfortunately, your
February 7, 2009 - 16:31 ET by JasonCUnfortunately, your definition becomes basically useless because of the subjective nature of the term "unjustified". So, for instance, if just one Iraqi citizen was killed during Shock & Awe (even if not on purpose, we were surely aware that bombing a major, densely-populated metropolitan area would undoubtedly result in civilian deaths), does that constitute murder? Or does the term Collateral Damage entail justification?
JasonC - Apologist for Islamo-fascism
February 7, 2009 - 16:43 ET by Sergeant ROCKNo, stupid. That is not murder. There is no intent to murder in that scenario. Unlike like your buddies in the Gaza strip or Islam-fascist headhunters.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
You fell off the head of your pin again
February 7, 2009 - 17:15 ET by cocodrieYou fell off the head of your pin again Jason.
The Iraqis killed by collateral damage were the enemy during a war. The terrorists deliberately put these people in danger and effectively sentenced them to death. Killing the enemy during combat is justified.
Jesus Loves You
Gee that's funny coco, most
February 7, 2009 - 18:43 ET by JasonCGee that's funny coco, most pro-war people usually try to cobble together some half-cogent argument about how we went to Iraq to liberate those very people; you seldom hear someone admit that they considered Iraqi civilian non-combatants to be "the enemy".
And I am not an apologist for "Islamo-fascists", sarge. I don't even think that what I gave as an example - shock 'n awe - counts as murder necessarily. Just trying to demonstrate that it can't be put in nearly as cut-and-dry terms as coco attempted.
Jason to you it's funny
February 7, 2009 - 18:56 ET by cocodrieJason to you it"s funny, to me it's sad that you can be so blind to reality. During "Shock and Awe" we were at war with Iraq. That made every iraqi our enemy. If the enemy chose to deliberately place civilians in harm's way, the consequences are their responsibility.
You are using situation ethics. I am using moral absolutes.
Right is right and wrong is wrong. Being a little bit wrong can get someone a little bit dead. ESPECIALLY IN WARTIME.
Jesus Loves You
coco, at a certain point,
February 8, 2009 - 01:23 ET by JasonCcoco, at a certain point, your capacity for self-delusion crosses over from amusing to painful.
The war's official name is "Operation Iraqi Freedom." Do you not see the irony here? The idea that we were liberating Iraqis from Saddam's fascist iron grip was the only halfway-plausible justification for this war. But according to you, even non-combatant citizens who committed the egregious crime of residing in the country's most densely-populated urban center should also be considered enemies?
Genius, coco, genius.
I don't consider Shock & Awe murder, by the way. But it does meet your criteria. Also, according to your criteria, a person could stand on an overpass with a rifle trying to pick off squirrels all day, and when a motorist inevitably gets killed, the rifleman could plead that it wasn't his intention. But it's still massively irresponsible, no?
'right to choose to terminate something contained in the body'
February 7, 2009 - 18:49 ET by choselife3xYou mean like a tumor?
So because one entirely unique individual is temporarily within the body of another individual, it can be killed? That individual life is subject to the whim of it's mother?
I take it you would be horrified if a mother hired someone to rip her 3 month old baby apart because she didn't want to be further inconvenienced by him?
But if she did it while the baby boy is still nestled securely in his mother's womb, that's okay.
On what level is that NOT WRONG?
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
JasonC: I agree with this
February 7, 2009 - 19:14 ET by QueenMumJasonC: I agree with this portion of your argument, strictly on the basis of comparing apples to apples:
"I do think it's not comparable to abortion (as conservatives often make
it out to be), because the right to abortion involves an individual's
right to choose to terminate something contained within that
individual's body. "Individual" is the key word. The death penalty
involves an execution carried out by The State. If The State were to
allow the victims' families to personally choose whether the convict
should be killed or spared, it would perhaps be more analogous."
From the standpoint of someone who believes that the individual (in this case the pregnant woman) has the right to destroy that which is living inside her body, it makes perfect sense that the State has no right to impose punishment. Let me be clear. I believe that abortion is murder. And I believe that both the mother and the person performing the abortion are guilty. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court has determined that under the Constitution (aka the law), there is a right to abortion. I also disagree with this decision. However, I'm also opposed to capital punishment. I think it's more consistent with the sanctity of life position to be opposed to both abortion and capital punishment.
The thing about capital punishment
February 7, 2009 - 19:30 ET by choselife3xIs that it is reserved for those who have voluntarily destroyed the life of another person. If the murderer is not required to pay with his life for the life of his victim, then where is the victim's 'sanctity of life'?
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Sanctity of life
February 7, 2009 - 19:40 ET by QueenMumObviously a murderer has no regard for the sanctity of life. Does it make sense for those believe in the sanctity of life to destroy the murderer's life? If the murder is a crime because a life was taken, how does taking another life preserve or restore the sanctity of the victim's life? Does "sanctity of life" only apply to certain lives?
'Does the sanctity of life only apply to certain lives?'
February 7, 2009 - 19:51 ET by choselife3xApparently the murderer thinks so.
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Sanctity of life
February 7, 2009 - 20:16 ET by QueenMumYou've proven my point, choselife. In the case of capital punishment, the State has made the same determination as the murderer - that "sanctity of life" does not apply to all human beings. And then it would follow that the sacredness of human life is to be determined, not by its relationship to the Creator, but by the will of man.
All life is created by God
February 7, 2009 - 20:55 ET by choselife3xWhomsoever takes it upon himself to destroy the life God made forfeits his own life. According to God's Law. I'm sure you are familiar with the relevant Scriptures.
Also, what cocodrie said.
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
According to God's law
February 7, 2009 - 21:48 ET by QueenMumchose: I'm not familiar with that Scripture. Can you please provide chapter and verse?
Exodus
February 7, 2009 - 22:10 ET by choselife3xChapter 21 verses 12 and 14 in particular. There are many more references dealing with different circumstances. Was it pre-meditated, in the heat of passion, accidental, motivated by revenge for an injured family member, etc. (husband got the Bible for me, he saw me waving my free arm futilely at it as it sat 3" out of reach)
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Hello Mum
February 7, 2009 - 19:55 ET by cocodrieThe death penalty is not a deterrant, restorer or preserver of life. The main purpose of the death penalty prevents the murderer from claiming another victim. Life sentences do not work because murderers are constantly released to kill again and again.
Jesus Loves You
Good evening QueenMum
February 7, 2009 - 19:46 ET by cocodrieHow can it be permissable to murder an unborn baby but wrong to execute a convicted murderer?
Maybe the state should let the victim's family decide the fate of the muederer and let the unborn baby decide whether or not to be aborted. After the baby is the individual suffering the most from an abortion.
Jesus Loves You
coco: The point is that both
February 7, 2009 - 20:03 ET by QueenMumcoco: The point is that both are murder; but I suppose one could quibble about the difference between killing and murder if one wishes to defend capital punishment. Is there a difference? Is the killing of a human being to be considered murder when that human being is either in the womb or an unwilling victim, but not when the "victim" is a murderer themselves? The person being executed is certainly most often unwilling. Does the person quilty of murder suddenly become something other than a human being? Granted, one may consider such a person less than human from a psychological and emotional standpoint. But does this somehow overshadow their status as a human being?
Not the same thing
February 7, 2009 - 20:14 ET by Sergeant ROCKmurder n. 1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
Executions are legal in most places as are abortions. However, one could argue that one is immoral and one isn't, from a Christian perspective.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Sergeant: I am a Christian
February 7, 2009 - 20:36 ET by QueenMumSergeant: I am a Christian and I've never been able to accept all the explanations I've heard from other Christians as to why capital punishment is morally justified. If we are morally correct in being opposed to the State allowing abortion, then why is it not morally correct to be opposed to capital punishment?
Eye for an eye..
February 8, 2009 - 08:56 ET by Sergeant ROCK.. tooth for a tooth... seems like that's been covered already. Now if your morality could succeed in ending abortion, I might consider calling for the end of capital punishment. But, not the other way around.
BTW.. What's your position on gay rights?
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
I see it differently Mum
February 7, 2009 - 20:30 ET by cocodrieThe murderer forfiets his right to life because he knows when he commits the murder that the penalty is death, yet he commits it anyway.
What did the unborn baby do to forfiet its life?
Jesus Loves You
coco: Exactly. You see it
February 7, 2009 - 20:50 ET by QueenMumcoco: Exactly. You see it differently. It seems your suggesting that the murderer is basically committing suicide, and it's up to the State to assist him/her. And you keep going back to the unborn baby. It's easy to make the argument about something as precious and innocent as the unborn babe. Not so easy to see the image of the Creator in the murderer. And yet, according to what I believe, both were created in His image. Besides, the death penalty is not universal. So then we must separate those who murder in States with the death penalty from those who murder in States where there is no death penalty. Why should we consider that the murderer in the State with the death penalty is more guilty and therefore must forfeit their life? Isn't a murder the same crime whether there is a death penalty or not?
'The image of the Creator in the murderer
February 7, 2009 - 21:03 ET by choselife3xWow. There is no such thing. The Creator is not a murderer. Satan is. A murderer has renounced God with his actions and allied himself with evil. As such he has brought judgement upon himself.
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
choselife: Perhaps my
February 7, 2009 - 21:25 ET by QueenMumchoselife: Perhaps my wording was poor. Or perhaps you're simply exhibiting your knee-jerk tendencies when you see my name. Are you denying that all are created in the image of God? (Which is what I said, if you read carefully.) Do you believe in the forgiveness of sins? Do you believe that we are all worthy of death except for the blood of Christ? Should the murderer not have the same opportunity to accept Christ and God's forgiveness as you and I? Does the thief align himself with evil? Does the liar align himself with evil? Does the adulterer align himself with evil? Does the pedophile align himself with evil? Shall they all be executed? Have they not all disobeyed and brought judgment upon themselves?
"Exhibiting your knee-jerk tendencies when you see my name"
February 7, 2009 - 21:46 ET by choselife3xWhat part of the post you just responded to would cause you to make that statement?
"Satan is a Liar, and the father of lies".
Those who purpose in their hearts to do evil, who destroy life, are putting themselves in opposition to the Creator of life. They are choosing evil over good. God explicitly states what His consequences are for those who make that choice. If you want to know what sins are worthy of the death penalty it is a simple matter to find them in Scripture. I'd get up and go look them up, but the baby just fell asleep in my lap.
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Leviticus
February 7, 2009 - 22:06 ET by QueenMumThere are many sins/crimes listed in Leviticus that are deemed worthy of death. I doubt there are enough cells in all the death rows in America to handle the adulterers alone. A discussion of the context of Leviticus would make for interesting dialogue. But not here. I know a fundamentalist when I "see" one. Pentecostal I would guess.
"I know a Pentecostal when i "see" one"
February 7, 2009 - 22:22 ET by choselife3xI did not attend church growing up and I wouldn't know a 'Pentecostal' from a 'Baptist' from a 'Lutheran' from a 'United Church of Christ' from a green eyed Martian.
I just think that people who wilfully take an innocent person's life forfeit their own 'right to life' by doing so. You brought up Christianity so I used God's Law to back up my argument.
Apparently you are a Christian who has no use for God's Law.
Interesting.
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
chose: You've misquoted me
February 8, 2009 - 00:30 ET by QueenMumchose: You've misquoted me in your subject line. Please correct this. For the record, I did attend church growing up. And I consider myself to be still growing spiritually. I'm a Christian who believes that Jesus came to fulfill the Law because mankind is powerless to do so without Him. Jesus is our High Priest. He affirmed the Ten Commandments; but we are no longer bound by the old Jewish Laws such as are defined in Leviticus. To hold on to such belief is to deny Christ as the Messiah. The Bible is the story of God's love for man and His plan for salvation. It cannot be read and interpreted in bits and pieces which have no relationship to one another.
P.S. In regard to Exodus: Are we then disobeying God's law by not taking the life of both those who provide and receive abortions? And if the State does not execute all murderers, can we say that we would be simply obeying God's law by meting out the punishments ourselves as set forth in God'sWord in both Exodus and Leviticus? Seems to me that this is the sort of thinking that leads to the bombing of abortion clinics. The judgments set forth in Exodus were specifically for the Jewish people with Moses as their leader. Note the many references to livestock and slaves. There was no government. The Children of Israel were still making sacrifices as required by God. If we're to take these passages literally, then shouldn't we also still be making animal sacrifices in our churches? So whether or not a government is bound by these judgments is debatable, IMO.
my subject line
February 8, 2009 - 09:02 ET by choselife3xI know a 'fundamentalist' when I see one. Pentecostal, I would guess.
Yeah, HUGE difference. I can see why you would demand a retraction.
How could I change something that has been replied to?
You stated your (erroneous) opinion that I was a 'fundamentalist' and a Pentecostal.
I informed you that I have no doctrinal affiliation. Other than 'Protestant', perhaps.
I was not presenting my opinion from a Biblical perspective, but from one of simple, equitable justice. You brought Christianity into it.
"Bits and pieces which have no relationship to each other"
That isn't what God says about His Word.
I don't know why you would even bring up sacrifices, when the death of the Lamb of God fulfilled the purpose of sacrifices.
Jesus said "I came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it".
The logical extension of your statement that God's societal Laws set forth in the Old Testement no longer apply, is that society should 'turn the other cheek and let murderers roam free. And everyone else for that matter. It's 'all cool' now cause Jesus died for us.
The laws God set forth in Exodus and Leviticus were for the founding of their culture and society.
The writers of the New Testement were living in an established society that already punished murderers, therefore there was no need to re-state laws against murder.
The established authority of a society is responsible for the decision of judgement and punishment of crimes. Which is clearly laid out in the Old Testement.
For you to equate belief in the righteousness of God's Laws with attempting to carry them out 'vigilante style' is *ahem* childish.
God did not state anywhere that it was a private individual's responsibility to judge and execute crime. He set up a system of governance to deal with such things.
You are either deliberately obtuse, or incapable of rational thought.
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Queen, I have a different
February 7, 2009 - 21:48 ET by Trix RabbitQueen,
I have a different perspective as well, based on my own Judaism. In the Mosaic Law, the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" was a just law - not barbarism as many suppose. It meant that if you injured your neighbor's eye, you will not lose your eye, but rather, be compelled to pay a just compensation for the loss of that eye.
As part of the repentance process, a just compensation and other acts of charity had to be rendered. Now in the case of a murderer, he/she cannot restore that life. There can be no compensation to the father, mother, or children of the victim.
Will G-d forgive the murderer? Perhaps, but that is entirely up to Him and Him alone.
Now I would rather opt for life in prison with no parole rather than execution, except for the most heinous criminals. Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, Charlie Manson, Hitler, Stalin, Jack the Ripper, for example will in no way be able to compensate for the collective losses and misery they have inflicted. No compensation can be made, not in this life, nor in the next.
For the MSM: In your pomp and all your glory, you're a poorer man than me. As you lick the boots of death born out of fear.
Ian Anderson "Wind up"
Hello again Mum
February 7, 2009 - 21:48 ET by cocodrieWe agree again. I did have a knee jerk reaction when I first read your post but not from your name.
The murderer is indeed created in God's image, but it is the spirit of satan that is in control of the murderer and other sinners. Pedophiles are routinely released to prey upon and destroy the lives of innocent children. If they can't be locked up permanently they should be executed
We can all be forgiven for any sin if we repent. Romans 5:8 tells us "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us."
Jesus Loves You
actually coco...i is my understanding
February 7, 2009 - 21:59 ET by porpoiseboythat "MAN" was created in Gods image. bible does not say all men are created in his image. after adam sinned he passed the "sin gene" (sorry my poor description )on to all men. that is why we all need redemption. we are sinners from the womb....in Gods perspective. now in our perspective ( mine included ) men are judged by what they DO, because we cannot look at their heart. and in this world that is the best men can do, to judge other men by their actions. sorry to digress a bit. point was....because of adam, we are all NOT Gods children....we need Christ to be adopted into his family.
"Here comes the orator! With his flood of words, and his drop of reason" Ben Franklin
Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left
porpoise: For your
February 7, 2009 - 22:15 ET by QueenMumporpoise: For your consideration and enlightenment.
Created in God's image
sorry just someones opinion
February 7, 2009 - 22:24 ET by porpoiseboythere is alot of bad hermenuetics on the web. if all men and women were currently created in God image then there would be no need for redemption. the whole book of romans makes that point. that does not mean it is not God's desire for us to be "remade" in his image through Christ....in fact he of course does desire this and that is why he has given us a clear path back.
"Here comes the orator! With his flood of words, and his drop of reason" Ben Franklin
Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left
Good evining Porpoiseboy
February 7, 2009 - 22:55 ET by cocodrieThe word Adam Is from the Hebrew word Adamah meaning mankind. The bible is speaking of mankind not Adam as an individual.
We are born in sin but God's spirit is still in us. We have a free will and can choose to follow Jesus or satan. Even though our spirit is in the image of God we can choose to commit sin and depart from Him, even for all aternity.
John 3:16 says that "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son". Jesus died for all of us, even those that choose not to accept Him.
Jesus Loves You
sorry coco but romans makes it clear
February 7, 2009 - 23:15 ET by porpoiseboythat we are born into sin. and that is not original with paul because david speaks of it also. sorry to be lazy and not post scriptures, but they are there. we don't "become" sinners the first time we sin. we are sinners at birth. this really tweaks the natural man's way of thinking as being unfair. but then God's ways are not our ways. and you are not born with the spirit in you either. the spirit that is dead in you has to be made alive through Christ. so again, after the fall no man was truly Gods image. that is why even those who were righteous after adam...abel, enoch, noah, abraham, moses........all them were also waiting for Christ and were made alive through him.
"Here comes the orator! With his flood of words, and his drop of reason" Ben Franklin
Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left
Hello Porpoiseboy
February 7, 2009 - 23:55 ET by cocodrieYou are 100% correct about us being born into sin and about the righteous patriarchs waiting for Jesus.
I believe part of our difference is our understanding of death. In Revelations the bible speaks of the second death.
The first death is physical death when our spirit is separated from our bodies. Our bodies cannot survive without our spirit and dies, but our spirit does not die.
The second death is when our spirit is separated from God.
In Romans Paul is saying our spirit is dead because it is separated from God by sin, not because it ceases to exist. To be spiritually alive we must unite our spirit to God through Jesus.
You're no lazier than I am. I hate it when people demand 32 references and a note from my momma to accept an opinion.
Jesus Loves You
Mum
February 7, 2009 - 21:24 ET by cocodrieThe reason I am radical about abortion is both religious and personal. My daughter-in-law's doctor pressured her to have my grandson aborted. Her doctor said the boy would not be normal and had a tear in his kidney. She changed doctors. By the time the boy was 2 months God had healed the hole in his kidney but he is still autistic. I cry when I think that a "doctor" wanted to deprive him of his life and us of the joy this child has brought into our lives.
My support of the death penalty is also religious and personal. All too often murderers are released to murder again and again. One of my aunts was a victim.
You are quite right that the system is not uniform nor perfect.
Please excuse my hardheadness on these two subjects but I am what I am. Those that know me well understand. Those that don't know me can count their blessings.
Jesus Loves You
coco: I'm sorry that you've
February 7, 2009 - 21:32 ET by QueenMumcoco: I'm sorry that you've had to deal with these issues on such a personal level. As I said, we see things differently. And mostly because we come to the subject from different perspectives. To be honest, I've always wondered if I'd feel differently about the death penalty if I had a personal stake in it. I've always hoped that I could be as forgiving as some of those I've read about who've been able to forgive such criminals. I'm not sure I'm that strong. Much easier to argue on a strictly intellectual level. God Bless. - Q.M.
The problem with all of
February 8, 2009 - 01:26 ET by JasonCThe problem with all of these pro-death penalty arguments is that they presuppose a big bright line separating pure good from pure evil.
Another word for this would be naivete.
Murder and rape are NOT 'gray areas', Jason.
February 8, 2009 - 07:48 ET by TailgunnerEither someone is raped or they are not.
Either someone is murdered or they are not.
Suppose it was your mother who was raped and murdered, Jason. Do you have the courage to come on here and say that you don't think he deserves the death penalty? Would you support his release on a technicality, for example if police forgot to sign the evidence custody document?
How can you possibly apologize for someone who is pure evil?
You're almost certainly the kind of person who would hold a candlelight vigil the night before Osama bin Laden's execution.
Yeah, let's have a discussion about 'naivete', Jason.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
Thank queen, it's nice to
February 8, 2009 - 09:24 ET by JasonCThank queen, it's nice to be agreed with. Your posts on the topic have been super.
Sorry, Jason, but as usual, you only half-read things.
February 7, 2009 - 16:59 ET by R D HelmFirst of all, only about 3% of the gun owners in this nation are NRA members. I left the organization well over a decade ago.
Secondly, the 2nd Amendment is an "individual" right for one very simple reason:
It was written to give the people of this country a way to resist a tyrannical government and as a means to keep government in line. Governments throughout history generally leave an armed populace pretty much alone, which is why one of the first things tyrannical governments do, and even previously benign governments that are getting a seriously tyrannical itch (like ours is now) is disarm the population.
As I noted earlier, Militias were controlled by government at the time our founding document was written.
It would make no sense to say that militias, controlled by the government, are going to protect us from that very same government.
That would be like saying the Gestapo was going to protect the German people from the Hitlerite regime.
-Dave
Our clueless political leaders are about to drive us all over a cliff. The time to HITM is now-before we go over.
Like he said...
February 7, 2009 - 17:05 ET by Sergeant ROCK"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Somehow I don't think Jason is a history buff.
February 7, 2009 - 17:07 ET by R D Helm-Dave
Our clueless political leaders are about to drive us all over a cliff. The time to HITM is now-before we go over.
Point taken.
February 7, 2009 - 17:13 ET by Sergeant ROCKAnd that's typical of revisionists.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
We're going in circles,
February 7, 2009 - 18:52 ET by JasonCWe're going in circles, gentlemen. I'm perfectly willing to accept that various courts have upheld the right to individual gun ownership. And I've even iterated ad nauseum that I'm glad for this. All I've been arguing, from the very freakin' beginning, is that a close semantic reading of the 2nd Amendment itself does not support what most gun enthusiasts claim it does. So instead of hysterically citing that amendment whenever talk of gun control raises its head, why not cite your preferred, more recent court case? Those have more merit on the issue.
If you're willing to believe that the constitutional will of the founding fathers is shaped by a) Correspondence some of them wrote at the time or b) What we have retroactively decided they meant, then I'd say you're not giving them enough credit for precision of language. And I'd also expect you to unquestioningly accept Roe v. Wade and national gay marriage rights (when it happens, which it will).
The idea that the militia is of the people is by no means at odds with what I've been arguing. But individuals are not necessarily "well-regulated." There's the rub.
Meanwhile, if you could just concede the point that the phrasing of the amendment calls for a militia, we could part ways amicably. If not, I believe we've exhausted the extent to which this can be argued; clearly we have nothing left to offer one another in the way of rhetorical persuasion.
RD, thanks for your intelligent posts and historical sources. Sarge, it's been fun; but please never call me an Islamo-Fascist Apologist again. That was over the line.
Bonne nuit...
Apologist for Islamo-fascism
February 7, 2009 - 19:06 ET by Sergeant ROCKIn plain English, you cannot have a well-regulated milita without individuals that possess firearms. Therefore, it is an INDIVIDUAL right. You haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.You just blather on with semantics ignoringfacts here and there where you see fit. You're either an ignoramus or a plain fraud.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
You're right Jason,
February 7, 2009 - 19:09 ET by cocodrieYou're right Jason, we are going around in circles because you cannot face the obvious truth.
The second ammendment plainly declares that the people must be armed in order for a well armed militia to be called up.
If you are wishing us good night the common usage is "bonsoir". "Bonne nuit" is commonly used to express a good night as in having a good time.
Jesus Loves You
cocodrie
February 7, 2009 - 19:17 ET by Sergeant ROCK"I believe in staring into the face of reality and denying it!" JasonC
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Good evening Rock
February 7, 2009 - 19:33 ET by cocodrieI've had enough compromise. My bucket's full.
These people are merrily destroying the very foundation of America and are too stupid to realize the consequences we face if they succeed.
May God have mercy on us and Israel. One cannot survive without the other.
Jesus Loves You
Bucketfull
February 7, 2009 - 19:37 ET by Sergeant ROCKYeah, I know what you mean. You cannot reason with the unreasonable. So, why bother anymore?
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
YOU'RE going in circles, moron.
February 7, 2009 - 19:37 ET by Tailgunner"If you're willing to believe that the constitutional will of the founding fathers is shaped by a) Correspondence some of them wrote at the time or b) What we have retroactively decided they meant, then I'd say you're not giving them enough credit for precision of language. And I'd also expect you to unquestioningly accept Roe v. Wade and national gay marriage rights (when it happens, which it will)".
'Believe', hell! That's exactly how it was shaped.
Jason, once again you ignore history. I have posted Jefferson's position on determining the 'Framers' intent" which is to return to the writings and debates of the time the Constitution was drafted, at least twice.
"Meanwhile, if you could just concede the point that the phrasing of the amendment calls for a militia,..."
I concede nothing. It is you who is determined to remain blind to every piece of historical and contemporary evidence pointing to an individual right, to the point of psychosis.
And Roe v Wade was not only obviously unsupported by any of the contemporary Constitutional writings, it's bad law.
If I don't feed my cat, can she sue me in a court of law? Of course not. Why not? Because my cat is not a natural person. (Even though she seems to think so.)
Therefore one who is not a natural person has no standing in a court of law.
Baby 'Roe' was allowed to bring a court action against Wade. Therefore the court accepted Roe as a natural person with standing before the court.
At some point in the legal process, without due process, Roe was declared to be a nonperson. At that point the court should have dismissed the case for lack of standing. However the Supreme Court continued further and gave the mother the right to terminate the life of a baby who originally entered the case as a person.
This is pure judicial infamy. For the Court to unilaterally rule that someone is a nonperson, when she legally entered the court as a natural person seeking judicial relief, is the Dred Scott decision times a hundred.
And I challenge you to find a Constitutional justification for gay marriage. There is none. But liberals like you, who ignore reams of black and white historical evidence supporting the right to keep and bear arms, will conjure out of nothing the idea that Alexander Hamilton, or John Adams, or Thomas Jefferson 'intended' gays to marry.
Your stupidity is only equalled by your arrogance.
Arguing with stupid people
February 7, 2009 - 19:45 ET by Sergeant ROCKYou may as well argue quantum physics with a chimp. Although, you may get a more reasoned explanation.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Are you even reading my
February 8, 2009 - 01:16 ET by JasonCAre you even reading my posts? I specifically said that I do not believe abortion or gay marriage are in the constitution. Not one bit. What I said is that I believe they are morally right in spite of that. And that's what I'm saying about the right to keep and bear arms as well. I do believe it's a right you should have, but I do not believe it's enshrined in the constitution as many people believe it is. You can whine and finagle all you want, but you continue to ignore those pesky hyphenated words "well-regulated". An individual stockpiling guns for individual reasons is not part of ANYTHING that could be called well-regulated.
Abortion is moral? wow - liberals are so messed in the head
February 8, 2009 - 01:41 ET by Dee Bunkthere is no getting through. Even when I was pro-choice - I never thought it was morally right. Thank goodness I was never brainwashed to that extent and was able to eventually realize the truth. I think people like Jason never will. Very sad.
Let me rephrase Dee: I
February 8, 2009 - 09:20 ET by JasonCLet me rephrase Dee: I think its morally right to leave the choice to individuals, not to women. Glad to know I'm so "messed in the head."
And before someone goes apes**t and claims that I support "inidividual" abortion rights but not "individual gun rights, remember that I've said approx. 25 times on this board that I do believe in the latter, I just believe that the 2nd Amendment is not the thing to cite in support of it.
"A smattering of comments
February 8, 2009 - 00:10 ET by NL207"A smattering of comments from some dramatically lesser-known founding fathers about the definition of militia doesn't hold water. "
And it would make a difference to you if the speaker were Thomas Jefferson instead of George Mason?
"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
Would Alexander Hamilton or Thomas Paine or Benjamin Franklin convince you if Jefferson is not enough?
Or are you just making a cheap cop-out to excuse abrogation of yet another part of the Constitution's limits on government by peopl who have no fundamental respect for the rights of free men?
Jason decides George Mason doesn't make his "A list".
February 8, 2009 - 08:01 ET by TailgunnerI haven't seen such arrogance since......me before 'rehab'. : /
I am happy you're a member
February 5, 2009 - 19:24 ET by Radar_OneI am happy you're a member of the ACLU....NOW ask the people you paid for that lil wallet card to do their damn jobs and help people KEEP THEIR GUNS! Since the ACLU is for the Bill of Rights and all...and guns are MY right.
Barack Obama= Half Honkey...ALL Donkey
This movie reminds me somewhat of the current Pres in
February 4, 2009 - 19:22 ET by JTPone way. There was romance in the begining.. there was turbulance in the middle.. and there was a happy ending with more romance.
Very similar to the press / President relationship. We are in the turbulant part now.
"I need more cowbell!" SNL
Brian Williams is getting stupider by the day.
February 5, 2009 - 08:33 ET by dborschjr68Yes, Brian, we should all look to Hollywood for our examples in daily living, and also in how to run a nation. And all men should watch Oprah to see how to behave like real men, too. Jackass.
"Liberate tutume ex inferis, liberal puppets." Me.
If the media wants Obama to
February 5, 2009 - 08:41 ET by NeoCon JediIf the media wants Obama to pattern himself after an actor president, I'd rather it be President Jed Bartlett (Martin Sheen) from "The West Wing." Though Sheen himself is as left-wing loon, the character he played had temperment, strength and wisdom. He was strong on defense, knew when to comprimise with his political enemies and always worked in the best interest of the country, not his own political means. That's how I wish the Democrats would govern, but hey, it's only a TV show, right?
"So this is how liberty dies ... with thunderous applause." -- Padmé Amidala
Once again, this shows how
February 5, 2009 - 10:10 ET by fitzfongOnce again, this shows how actors long to be journalists or politicians and journalists and politicians long to be actors. Why don't they just switch places? Come to think of it, with my home state now suffering the fallout from actors becoming politicians (Schwarzefailure and that lard-a**ed pinko Meathead Reiner)...never mind.
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." -Winston Churchill
When I read this I
February 5, 2009 - 16:29 ET by moderncommentaries83When I read this
my reaction was, "Good. Let Obama show up at my door asking for my gun."
He isn't going to get me to give up my Constitutional right without a fight.
By the way, even with the surge in gun sales post-election, I note the US hasn't reverted to the Wild West....
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
This whole Second Amendment Debate
February 6, 2009 - 20:13 ET by MightyMouth...is meaningless. We have had private gun ownership in this country since before the Amendment was written! The debate now is: should some liberal whack jobs be able to take that right away!
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
True, MM...There are some liberal whack jobs
February 7, 2009 - 00:53 ET by JerTrue, MM...
There are some liberal whack jobs with little or no understanding of our social or constitutional history who would, guided more by emotion than logic, seriously overreach in their efforts to thoroughly expunge the well-recognized rights of gun ownership vested within the American citizenry.
They are in the minority however.
There are many more who simply endorse reasonable regulations and limitations which may be prescribed by the applicable governing authority on the character, acquisition and usuage of firearms which may be borne by the individual--whether in or outside the home. As long as the broader parameters of constitutionally protected gun ownership rights are observed, no Supreme Court decision of which I am aware would prevent the imposition of such restrictions.
Jer
BullSh*t
February 7, 2009 - 01:03 ET by MightyMouthWe are getting to the point where every house needs to be a compound and armed to the teeth. I didn't choose this state we are in but maybe getting back to the old west days where everyone is packing would be best.
How many Airliners would have been HighJacked on 9/11 had everyone on board had been armed? The dumbass terrorists would have had to buy the entire cabin out. And still the armed crew could have stopped it. Duh.. you libs are pathetic when it comes to thinking things through.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
So MM, you want every
February 7, 2009 - 01:21 ET by JerSo MM, you want every passenger on any airliner to be armed...and presumably every school student, churchgoer, member of a movie or theater audience, court spectator, sports fan, you name it--they and everyone else--all need to be packing heat.
Yeah, well "thought-through", MM.
Jer
at least it would be a level playing field...
February 7, 2009 - 01:27 ET by MightyMouth...instead of the victims only (sorry no guns allowed here) zones. Give me a break. If you cant get rid of guns allow guns. How does this concept escape you?
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
A level playing field?
February 7, 2009 - 01:43 ET by JerA level playing field? Real life isn't a sporting event. If a determined would-be robber assumes all intended victims are armed, he will simply shoot them in the back and then take their money.
By the way, I meant to ask you earlier...do you agree with the municipal ordinances enacted in some of the more violence-prone towns of the post-Civil War 'West' which prohibited the carrying of firearms?
Jer
1. the victim should shoot
February 7, 2009 - 01:47 ET by MightyMouth1. the victim should shoot first.
2. No.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
MM...
February 7, 2009 - 02:27 ET by Jer1. the victim should shoot first.
Preferably, but that option would be obviated if he/she had already been shot in the back.
[BTW, MM, my views on this topic are far from being set in stone. I've given it a good deal of thought for over 40 years, and still don't have the answers. It's at least one issue where I really do understand the argument of each side.]
Jer
You have the answers...they're just the wrong ones.
February 7, 2009 - 12:25 ET by TailgunnerDon't pretend to be some kind of 'reasonable scholar'.
Your antigun views are set in stone. If you speak of gun control, you are anti-gun rights. Period.
Our argument is for less, not more, gun control. Your argument is the reverse.
The basis for your argument is that government has the right to regulate private ownership of firearms, and that only government has the say in how far this regulation may go.
Historically, government regulation of private firearms always leads to confiscation. See Britain and Australia who pushed registration schemes on their citizens under the guise of controlling crime...then once they knew where the guns were, ordered every one of them surrendered to government officials.
Now their crime rates are going through the roof and government pushes more collectivist outrages down the public's throat every day. They no longer fear their people.
We will never allow this here....which is why we are constantly on guard against liberal antigun apologists like you and Jason.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
Set in stone
February 7, 2009 - 12:28 ET by Sergeant ROCKJer, is like any other socialist - he does not trust citizens with firearms.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Good evening Jer
February 7, 2009 - 19:25 ET by cocodrieThere are many many cases of legally armed citizens defending themselves against criminals. I am one of those citizens. It happened the day after Katrina.
You will never read about these incidents in the liberal rags disguising themselves as newspapers.
They are too busy protecting honest citizens like EX congressman Refrigerator Jefferson.
I pray all is well with you.
Jesus Loves You
Utterly ridiculous.
February 7, 2009 - 11:19 ET by Tailgunner"...If a determined would-be robber assumes all intended victims are armed, he will simply shoot them in the back and then take their money."
If your statement was true...then why do crime rates always fall drastically in states where concealed carry laws are instituted?
It's because criminals have to assume that his potential victim is armed and prepared to use deadly force to defend himself/herself.
The robber also has to assume that bystanders may be armed and willing to defend the victim.
Criminals go to great lengths to avoid armed citizens. Shortly after the passage of concealed carry laws in Florida, there was a surge in robberies of tourists near airports.
Criminals would look for rental cars, then easily noticeable by the company stickers on the back, and then intercept and rob the occupants.
Captured criminals were asked why this was happening...they replied that they could be sure that tourists, at least, weren't armed.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
Do not-- I repeat--do not--
February 7, 2009 - 11:32 ET by misterbillDo not-- I repeat--do not-- try to argue with the facts. Denial is sometimes a serious mental problem.
All your facts are true and pertinent but not to some people in denial.
I woke up angry this morning. I don't know why. I usually wake up quite happy, just to be alive, among many reasons.
I actually got angry after I read about 3 supposed Republicans supporting the stimulus bill. So I am in no mood to read such tripe as Jer has posted here.
Good for you tailgunner--keep your sights on this Zero and cut him down.
Jer the Care Bear is an idiot
February 7, 2009 - 11:37 ET by Sergeant ROCKI recall that they passed a law in LA. a while back to allow people driving to protect themselves with firearms form would-be car-jackers... guess what happened to the rate of car-jackings???
Jer represents the crowd, like Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, etc., that believe citizens are not to be trusted with firearms.
I would add that the risk is mine, not Jer's. If I want to risk getting shot in the back, that's my right.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Sgt. Rock is a lousy shot
February 7, 2009 - 19:03 ET by JerJer the Care Bear is an idiot
Attaboy, Sarge....fall back on your most reliable skill: Name-Calling
Jer represents the crowd, like Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, etc., that believe citizens are not to be trusted with firearms.
Outstanding deduction, genius. However, the fact that I own a firearm [expert shot, btw] suggests you have missed the target...yet again.
Jer
Bullesye..
February 7, 2009 - 19:14 ET by Sergeant ROCKNice dodge and parry, old man. The simple fact is, it is not for you to to decide as to whether or not I should take the risk - it's mine.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Thanks, Sgt...
February 7, 2009 - 20:09 ET by JerAppreciate the acknowledgement you're a lousy shot.
I dodged nothing. You made the declarative statement that it is your decision to risk being shot in the back. Duly noted. Anything else? How do you like your coffee?
Hmm...just two days ago, I was a mere "schoolboy". Now, I'm an "old man". Gosh, I'm aging way too fast.
Jer
Feel free to come by anytime to test my marksmanship
February 7, 2009 - 20:19 ET by Sergeant ROCKAn old geezer with the intellect of a 'schoolboy'. Anything else you want to get off your chest, old man?
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Anything else you want to
February 7, 2009 - 20:45 ET by JerAnything else you want to get off your chest, old man?
Maybe, but not with you, Sarge...except for--and because of--this: You are far more interested in personal attacks than constructive dialogues.
Jer
So an anti-gun liberal owns a gun. Typical.
February 7, 2009 - 19:50 ET by TailgunnerLots of liberal elitists own firearms...especially some famous names (e.g. Dianne Feinstein, who possesses a California concealed weapons permit) who openly call for the disarmament of the rest of the country.
I'll bet you'll be first in line when they give the order, "Mr and Mrs America, turn them all in".
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
Carl Rowan
February 7, 2009 - 19:56 ET by Sergeant ROCKSo, he's like Carl Rowan then, huh?
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
TG
February 7, 2009 - 20:02 ET by Trix RabbitI have long ago decided that if the government strips me of my right to bear arms (thinking of disarming the Jews in Germany, Poland, etc.,) to wit: my .357 Desert Eagle, no problem.
I will go south of the train tracks and get another one, but this one WON'T be registered.
For the MSM: In your pomp and all your glory, you're a poorer man than me. As you lick the boots of death born out of fear.
Ian Anderson "Wind up"
You guys boast of your
February 7, 2009 - 20:30 ET by JerYou guys boast of your analytical skills and critical thinking abilities and yet continually make these wild leaps of logic and embarrassingly lame deductions.
Any advocacy of reasonable firearm regulation = anti-gun, confiscate-all-firearms liberal. Sheesh!
Jer
Ahh.. and that's the catch..
February 7, 2009 - 20:33 ET by Sergeant ROCK.. people like you are NOT reasonable. Nice try, Mr. Rowan.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
No Jer, it's just that I
February 7, 2009 - 20:41 ET by Trix RabbitNo Jer, it's just that I carry for protection and protection only. I have never used it against any living creature and I hope I never do. It is neither proof of manhood nor a phallic symbol.
But I would counter with this offer, and I mean it: If the federal and local government can guarantee my safety and the safety of my family, 24/7 at all times and in all places, then I will be the first in line to turn in my firearm. If they cannot or will not, then I'll just hold on to it.
For the MSM: In your pomp and all your glory, you're a poorer man than me. As you lick the boots of death born out of fear.
Ian Anderson "Wind up"
And Trix... If everyone
February 7, 2009 - 21:21 ET by JerAnd Trix...
If everyone were as mentally and emotionally balanced as you appear to be, there would be a.) no need to have any restrictions or limitations on gun ownership and b.) no need for anyone to carry for self-protection. Sadly, the premise is not reality.
That said, I think you and others should scroll up to my oringinal comments [to MightyMouth] on the subject. I believe positions have been attributed to me which I haven't necessarily taken or embrace.
Jer
I wouldn't trust the
February 7, 2009 - 22:47 ET by TailgunnerI wouldn't trust the government to guarantee anything. After all, government is the main reason we have a Second Amendment.
Plus I just like guns...;)
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
gee jer....
February 7, 2009 - 20:50 ET by porpoiseboywhy is it a wild leap of logic to assume that if one accedes to the govt the power of "reasonable ( whatever that is ) firearm regulation", that they would ever, ever stop at the point you consider "reasonable"? history would claim otherwise.
"Here comes the orator! With his flood of words, and his drop of reason" Ben Franklin
Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left
The orator
February 7, 2009 - 20:52 ET by Sergeant ROCKWell said.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
Because ppb... the
February 7, 2009 - 21:06 ET by JerBecause ppb...
the government already has that power and has exercised it for generations. The people propose and the courts decide what is reasonable, and the Second Amendment ultimately prevents overreaching.
Jer
that's just a populist argument jer
February 7, 2009 - 21:10 ET by porpoiseboy"the people propose"....so as long as the "people propose" read that the congress... not necessarily "THE PEOPLE" and the courts agree then the definition and hence the effect can change ad infinitum? so you would argue an "organic" constitution vs a "newtonian" one i assume?
"Here comes the orator! With his flood of words, and his drop of reason" Ben Franklin
Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left
Not only 'populist' but elitest
February 8, 2009 - 08:49 ET by Sergeant ROCKKind of like Carl Roawn. Remember him? Guns good for me, not good for you. Hypocrite, in other words. It's funny that these so-called pro-gun liberals mention 'reasonable' gun-control by the very same entity that the Second Amendment was to be independent of. The main point of the Second was to discourage tyranny in government by having an armed citizenry. Where does it say that the government has a right to infringe on ownership?
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
NOT if liberals constantly undermine, deny and disparage....
February 7, 2009 - 22:42 ET by Tailgunner...the Second Amendment...and marginalize those who exercise it as paranoid fringe nutcases.
Plus I might add that governments throughout history always tend to 'regulate' private firearm ownership out of existence.
See Britain and Australia for two contemporary examples.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
Tailgunner, its the new mantra of the rising lefty ruling class:
February 7, 2009 - 20:32 ET by R D Helm"Firearms are for me, not for thee."
Same with taxes, apparently. And private jets, SUVs, Mansions, Yachts...
-Dave
Our clueless political leaders are about to drive us all over a cliff. The time to HITM is now-before we go over.
...the air-waves.
February 7, 2009 - 20:48 ET by bigtimer...the air-waves.
bt, yeah, those, too.
February 8, 2009 - 02:25 ET by R D HelmDamn, I must be slipping in my advancing years. LOL.
-Dave
Our clueless political leaders are about to drive us all over a cliff. The time to HITM is now-before we go over.
Dave... Slipping
February 8, 2009 - 02:34 ET by bigtimerDave...
Slipping heck...he's got so many things he has done and will do coming on down the road like a speeding freight train it isn't funny.
Nah...you aren't slipping...it's getting hard to keep up with all of the total leftist agenda being injected any way they can.
Thank goodness for the internet, or it would be an impossibility, the msm isn't going to keep us up to par on anything regarding their O, after-all, they have the same agenda.
Soros is smiling...for the time being.
Anger will swell out here...you can feel it coming.
I supported that at the time.
February 7, 2009 - 12:48 ET by TailgunnerAround the time of 9/11, everyone was certain there would be another terrorist strike but no one knew where or when.
When the potential alternatives were either: another hijacked airliner packed with people flying into a building packed with people, or another hijacked airliner packed with people being shot out of the sky by another plane packed with missiles to prevent it being flown into a building packed with people, armed passengers didn't seem to be that much of a risk in comparison.
And someone thinks having guns onboard a plane is a good idea. US Air Marshals fly regularly on US flights. Airline pilots have the option of qualifying as 'Federal Flight Deck Officers' and carrying firearms onboard their aircraft.
At any rate it's probably not necessary. We've already seen instances of potential or actual terrorists being brought down by brute force by passengers who realize the stakes.
And why shouldn't students, churchgoers, etc. not have the option to carry a firearm? (Just your disparaging reference to 'packing heat' shows where your head is on gun rights.)
Jer, haven't you realized that if some nutjob wants to kill a lot of people before he blows his own head off, he heads straight to places where he knows his victims will be defenseless like a school or church?
For someone who's thought about this for 'forty years', you sure haven't gotten anywhere.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
Tailgunner...
February 7, 2009 - 19:49 ET by JerAround the time of 9/11, everyone was certain there would be another terrorist strike but no one knew where or when.
Me too... me either.
And someone thinks having guns onboard a plane is a good idea. US Air Marshals fly regularly on US flights. Airline pilots have the option of qualifying as 'Federal Flight Deck Officers' and carrying firearms onboard their aircraft.
Including me. I was merely questioning the wisdom of arming "every passenger" on an airliner.
And why shouldn't students, churchgoers, etc. not have the option to carry a firearm? (Just your disparaging reference to 'packing heat' shows where your head is on gun rights.)
Jer, haven't you realized that if some nutjob wants to kill a lot of people before he blows his own head off, he heads straight to places where he knows his victims will be defenseless like a school or church?
Because I am troubled by the notion that the hot-tempered pistol-packing kid sitting next to my son may get pissed off by the "F" he just received on his math test and decide to waste the professor and a few of his classmates. But, I suppose the other armed students could draw their weapons and damn, the guys and gals could have a good old-fashioned shootout before gym.
And my use of the term "packing heat" is neither disparaging nor indicative of "where my head is" with respect to gun rights in general--but is suggestive of my opinion with respect to arming everyone in every venue.
For someone who's thought about this for 'forty years', you sure haven't gotten anywhere.
Glad you already have it all figured out, Tailgunner. I'm still trying.
Jer
Jer could be Handgun Control's next director.
February 7, 2009 - 20:33 ET by Tailgunner"But, I suppose the other armed students could draw their weapons and damn, the guys and gals could have a good old-fashioned shootout before gym."
As I said before, sarcasm is not a substitute for debate. What would you rather see...a 'shootout' or a 'massacre'?
Your attitude towards concealed weapons permit holders is the same elitist, condescending 'borderline nutcase' one that anti-gunners demonstrate everytime a state passes a 'shall issue' concealed carry law.
They always shriek hysterically about 'Wild West' shootouts in traffic arguments, etc. Instead violent crime drops drastically while permit holders prove to be the most law abiding and nonviolent people in the state. (The percentage of permits revoked for misuse or violent crime is usually expressed in fractions of one percent.)
And there is no shortage of incidents where a lawfully concealed firearm was used to prevent a violent crime or stop one already in progress.
Concealed carry has long ago proved itself to be a safe and reasonable means of self defense. That's why thirty-seven states already have 'shall-issue' laws on the books (VT and AK require no permit) and there is momentum for a national concealed carry reciprocity law.
The reality of concealed carry is that the 'pistol-packing kid' sitting next to your son is more likely to save your son's butt than 'waste' it.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
Pffttbb!... There you go again!
February 7, 2009 - 20:48 ET by Sergeant ROCKTrying to reason with the unreasonable! I would add that Jer and his buddies were wetting their pants when they passed that car-jacking law in LA. Ohhhh.. the humanity!!! Beggars would be killed! Shoot-outs would occur! Nope. Just that car-jackings went down - whoops!
And correct me if I'm wrong, crime decreased in states where right to carry laws have been adopted.
Jer the Care Bear is delusional.
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Bolton/KEYES 2012
The liberal solution is always
February 7, 2009 - 20:48 ET by cocodrieThe liberal solution is always - Punish the innocent citizen for the acts of criminals.
Jesus Loves You
Well, TG...
February 7, 2009 - 21:39 ET by JerI regret you consider my attitude to be "borderline nutcase" but I'd be grateful if you'll just entertain one quick condescending elitist question:
Do you believe concealed weapons permit holders should be allowed to carry their firearms into courtrooms?
Jer
You're the one who
February 7, 2009 - 22:23 ET by TailgunnerYou're the one who apparently considers permit holders 'borderline nutcases' because some 'kid who got an F' might shoot up the classroom.
Again and again this claim has been utterly demolished by the empirical evidence.
And your question is the same kind of extremist hypothetical liberals use to weaken a progun argument.
They ask, for example, 'Does the Second Amendment allow everyone to possess machine guns and hand grenades"?
If you're foolish enough to answer such a loaded question, they paint you as either a paranoid nutcase or conceding that the Second Amendment is meaningless.
What I will say is that a courtroom is a sealed environment that can be secured. Therefore your question is irrelevant to 99.99% of the real world situations a person could find himself in.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
You're the one who
February 7, 2009 - 22:44 ET by JerYou're the one who apparently considers permit holders 'borderline nutcases' because some 'kid who got an F' might shoot up the classroom.
There you go again...revealing yet another clumsily reasoned--and profoundly erroneous--deduction.
Again and again this claim has been utterly demolished by the empirical evidence.
What claim? That "F" students are nutcases? That there have been gunfights in classrooms? Or another one you just pulled out of thin air? And to what "empirical evidence" are you referring?
And your question is the same kind of extremist hypothetical question liberals use to weaken a progun argument.
Sounds like you don't plan to answer it. [The fact that you characterized a simple, straightforward question based on a real world, widely observed policy as "extremist hypothetical" was the tipoff.]
They ask, for example, 'Does the Second Amendment allow everyone to possess machine guns and hand grenades"?
Good question. Another one I'm betting you'll duck.
If you're foolish enough to answer such a loaded question, they paint you as either a paranoid nutcase or conceding that the Second Amendment is meaningless.
"Loaded" question? Nice pun. Why not give it a "shot" and see how I--not "they" paint you.
What I will say is that a courtroom is a sealed environment that can be secured. Therefore your question is irrelevant to 99.99% of the real world situations a person could find himself in.
Remember when I said it sounded like you didn't plan on answering the question. I was right.
Jer
Nice try, Jer.
February 7, 2009 - 23:19 ET by TailgunnerYou understand exactly what I'm saying.
Your questions are based on deliberately twisting and misinterpreting my words.
Therefore I will not waste time reexplaining myself to brainless, juvenile liberals.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
As you wish, but
February 7, 2009 - 23:27 ET by Jerthe question was simple, Tailgunner....
Simple enough even for brainless, juvenile conservatives.
Jer
right gunner......the county i live in
February 7, 2009 - 21:50 ET by porpoiseboyhas by far the highest per capita concealed weapons permits in CA, we also have the lowest per capita murder rate. but hey, fact really do get in the way of a good argument for many.
cowboys know what guns are for i guess. we also know that whiskey is for drinkin' and water is for fightin' :-)
"Here comes the orator! With his flood of words, and his drop of reason" Ben Franklin
Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left
Liberals aren't 'overreaching'...they know what they're doing.
February 7, 2009 - 11:05 ET by TailgunnerThis isn't a bunch of warm and fuzzy bleeding heart kumbaya types we're dealing with. These are Stalinists intent on unchecked power. To these budding totalitarianists, armed American citizens are not an asset...they're an obstacle to the imposition of socialist rule.
Liberals fully intend to disarm the American people. Their unceasing attacks on the real meaning of the Second Amendment, having in common the goal of marginalizing both it and those who support it, are preparation for ever-increasing gun control measures eventually ending in total prohibition and confiscation.
NOLI PUGNARE ME OCCIDERE
Couldn't have
February 7, 2009 - 20:16 ET by UpNorthsaid it better Tailgunner. Our gov, Obama's gf, Jen Granholm, promised that the streets would run red with blood if the state passed concealed carry. The legislature did, with enough votes to over ride her veto, so she signed. Guess what, no rivers of blood, a few bad guys who got smoked trying to rob, or mess with citizens who carried, and at least one moron with a ccw license who managed to get in trouble, drinking and carrying.
But, if she can get her lib/dem majorities in both houses, it's a certainty she'll go after handguns and concealed carry. After all, Barry doesn't believe in it. And, I'm waiting for the 400-500% increase in taxes on ammo, I expect that any day, now that Holder was confirmed. He hates the constitution, especially the 2nd Amendment.