NBC's Isikoff Warns Cain's 9-9-9 Plan May Mean 'More Pain' for 'Struggling Families'
On Saturday's NBC Nightly News, correspondent Michael Isikoff filed a report recounting criticisms of GOP presidential candidate Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan, as Isikoff asserted that "critics see more pain, not gain, for struggling families." His report continued:
MICHAEL ISIKOFF: A family of four with an income of $50,000 could face a tax hike of more than $5,000, says one tax analyst.
PROFESSOR EDWARD KLEINBARD, USC SCHOOL OF LAW: Anybody who works for a living and has an income below six figures a year is going to find him or herself very sorry that they live in a 9-9-9 tax environment.
The NBC correspondent soon featured a soundbite of Cain advisor Rich Lowrie which did not address the charge that the poor would pay more, as Lowry was instead shown arguing in favor of eliminating the capital gains tax to help increase investment.
But, on the same night's Huckabee show on FNC, host Mike Huckabee allowed guest Cain the chance to argue that his plan would not cause the poor to pay higher taxes because the 9-9-9 plan would also eliminate hidden taxes that increase the prices of consumers goods, thus allowing prices to drop as the sales tax is introduced.
Returning to NBC, Isikoff undermined Cain's plan as he concluded the report:
Nobody disputes that the 9-9-9 plan would radically change current policy. But while Cain says it will recharge the economy, his critics say there's no guarantee of that, and that his proposal would unfairly shift the tax burden away from the wealthy and onto working class Americans.
Below is a complete transcript of Isikoff's report from the Saturday, October 15, NBC Nightly News, followed by the relevant portion of Huckabee's interview with Cain from the same day's Huckabee show on FNC:
#From the Saturday, October 15, NBC Nightly News:
LESTER HOLT: As you heard, Herman Cain raised far less money in the third quarter than some of his opponents. But those numbers were, of course, tallied before his recent surge in the national polls which has brought Cain a new level of scrutiny especially over his 9-9-9 tax plan. Tonight NBC's national investigative correspondent Michael Isikoff takes a closer look at what Cain has in mind.
MICHAEL ISIKOFF: Herman Cain wants to cure the economy by dumping the tax code and replacing it with a simple formula.
HERMAN CAIN: 9-9-9
ISIKOFF: By slashing personal and corporate income taxes to nine percent and adding a nine percent federal sales tax, Cain says his plan will expand the economy by $2 trillion, create 6 million jobs. But critics see more pain, not gain, for struggling families. A family of four with an income of $50,000 could face a tax hike of more than $5,000, says one tax analyst.
PROFESSOR EDWARD KLEINBARD, USC SCHOOL OF LAW: Anybody who works for a living and has an income below six figures a year is going to find him or herself very sorry that they live in a 9-9-9 tax environment.
ISIKOFF: Rich Lowry is an investment advisor and free market enthusiast who developed Cain's economic plan.
RICH LOWRY, HERMAN CAIN ADVISOR: I just asked him how bold do you want to be. And with his signature smile and that big booming, you know, bass voice, he just kind of leaned in and said: Bold.
ISIKOFF: Bold under 9-9-9 means scrapping all personal exemptions and deductions for child care, tuition, and interest on home mortgages. And the national sales tax? Nine percent on top of state and local taxes, and no exemptions for food and medicine. Cain's 9-9-9 plan would eliminate all taxes on capital gains from the sale of stocks and bonds. Lowry says to free up money for new investment.
LOWRY: Risk taking drives growth. You have to allow risk taking to happen.
ISIKOFF: Nobody disputes that the 9-9-9 plan would radically change current policy. But while Cain says it will recharge the economy, his critics say there's no guarantee of that, and that his proposal would unfairly shift the tax burden away from the wealthy and onto working class Americans. Michael Isikoff, NBC News, Washington.
#From the Saturday, October 15, Huckabee show on FNC:
MIKE HUCKABEE: All right, you heard the criticism of Herman Cain's plan. We've got Herman Cain. He's joining us from Tennessee, and he's going to tell us why the 9-9-9 plan is a good one. Herman, you heard what was said, that this is going to hurt lower income people. True or not true?
HERMAN CAIN: That is false and here's why. And, Governor, thankfully, you pointed it out. What a lot of people don't understand is, the 9-9-9 plan and the sales tax piece is a replacement tax. We are going to replace invisible taxes that are embedded in all products and services with a visible tax, and, as a result of that, competitors are going to take out the invisible taxes so the costs of goods will go down, and when they pay the nine percent retail tax, they will essentially not be paying anymore because we're taking the invisible taxes that are embedded and replacing it with a visible tax of a nine percent retail sales tax.
HUCKABEE: And one of the - you talk about invisible taxes. Are you talking about the tax that is built in because of payroll taxesand the taxes on the products as they're being developed - corporations - and this is something I think a lot of people don't understand - corporations don't pay tax. They collect it-
CAIN: Right.
HUCKABEE: -but they pass it on to the consumer in the cost of whatever it is they're doing. Whether it's a product or a service. So you're saying that this is now transparent, you know exactly what you're paying.
CAIN: You're right, Governor. Let's take a loaf of bread. Well, the producer who makes the flour and he sells it to the baker, he's got to make a profit to pay his taxes, then the baker who bakes it has got to sell it to the grocery store. He's got to make a profit to pay his taxes. Well, then, the grocery store sells it to the consumer, then he's got to make a profit to pay his taxes. So you have all of those embedded taxes in the cost of that loaf of bread. What we do is we don't tax the production of that loaf of bread, those hidden taxes are pulled out, and you pay that nine percent because the costs of goods will go down. So it is not regressive on the poor. It liberates the poor because tax prices don't go up, number one, and they also don't pay any retail taxes on used goods, just like the fair tax.
HUCKABEE: You know, when you talk about a loaf of bread like that, I get the distinct impression that we get the heels and the government gets the loaf. It kind of sounds like that. But I want to ask, another criticism that Michael (Michael Linden of the Center for American Progress) leveled was that this hurts senior citizens. So that's going to be a question you'll have to deal with. What's the response?
CAIN: The response is it does not hurt senior citizens for the following reasons: If you're drawing Social Security, you don't pay taxes on your Social Security income. You've already paid it. If you have investments and you're living off dividends, well, guess what? You don't pay taxes on dividends twice. You've already paid it. Many seniors are living off of their Social Security as well as they're living off of their dividend income or they're living off of income they might have coming in from stocks. Things only get taxed once. That's a big advantage to seniors. So to say that seniors are going to be negatively impacted, no. And the goods and services that they buy, here again just like on the poor, prices are going to go down so they will not be negatively impacted by the retail sales tax.
- Brad Wilmouth's blog
- Login to post comments
Comments
Like what we have not is
Submitted by PeskyDane on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 8:46am.
Like what we have now is working soooo wonderfully.
Another NBC hit job.
Submitted by motherbelt on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 8:14am.
They only offer the anti-Cain argument.
Another Mindless Opinion
Submitted by Bourbeau on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 8:36am.
This is what's wrong with 9-9-9 strategy. The Caine campaign is ballyhooing it to the high heavens while letting the conversationalists, like Isikoff, implant wrong impressions and inferences with the hopes of wrecking it.
No President is able to implement any plan, regardless of its merits, on his own. That's a fact, and we all know it. Hence, there's several elements necessary for this conversation:
A. What exactly are the fed's monetary needs of this country that require the various taxes - how much are we talking about. Include it all, social security, medicare, defense, etc.
B. What exactly are the current intakes of taxes and how is that spread amongst the goverment's needs; what's the over/under for each - social security, medicare, transportation, general tax fund.
C. Eliminating all of the tax intakes that are dictated by 9-9-9, and then show how 9-9-9 will handle the same requirments.
It is at that point that the negotiations start. There's not a prayers chance in hell that 9-9-9 will be enacted as Herman Caine sees it today, but it's worth being put on the table to start the conversations. This is what Isikoff shrewdly leaves out of his commentary - he proudly skews the commentarty in a way to suggest it's all 9=9=9 without any negotiation. It's wrong; it's misleading; it's troublesome; and most of all, to be deceitful in your commentary about something so important adds nothing to resolving the problem.
Isikoff is a part of the Establishment against Cain.
Submitted by acaiguana on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 8:53am.
The establishment does not want Cain. They want Romney.
Romney is a disaster waiting to happen.
We can do better.
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana notes from the Underground' (Soon to be at theaters near you)
Cain's 999 is like Michele Bachmann described it: 666
Submitted by lrgon on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 11:36am.
Who was it that said that if the liberals get full control of the congress they'll turn Cain's
silly *ss 999 into 3 brand new ways to raise our taxes. Cain's plan sets up the further smashing of the country the same way that theat cloneservative Bush set things up for Obama to come in and use all the laws he signed to make things worse for America.
Cain’s “9-9-9” tax plan would replace the code with three taxes — a 9 percent income tax, a 9 percent business transactions tax, and a 9 percent federal sales tax. On paper, the first two look like cuts, because payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare (now nearly 15 percent, including corporate contributions) would be repealed. The sales tax would be new, on top of existing state sales taxes.
Congressman Bachmann is correct when she says of the 666 devil in the details plan that Cain's plan merely creates another federal tax (in the form of a Value Added Tax), and does little to address the need to reduce the national deficit.
“The 9-9-9 plan isn't a jobs plan, it's a tax plan," --- M. Bachmann
It is NOT a Value Added Tax
Submitted by Blonde on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 11:47am.
Can't you get that through your head?
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
Blonde
Submitted by Kingfish17 on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 12:24pm.
I don't know how many times you've tried to have a discussion with lrgon, but it's kinda pointless. He's a drive by poster and either a Ron Paul nutcase or poser liberal who just bashes Republicans. (And no, not all Ron Paul supporters are nutcases.) I got into a discussion with lrgon where he said that Rick Perry instituted a 10% tax on business revenues in Texas, proved him wrong, and never heard a peep from him again about it.
He comes here from time to time, says something outlandish about a Republican, and crawls back into the woodwork.
"You can’t go take a trip to Las Vegas...on the taxpayer’s dime." Barack Obama
I know, Kingfish
Submitted by Blonde on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 1:16pm.
But I'm kind of in the camp that doesn't want these idiots to sully the boards. After all, we get "drive by" readers, too....and if we let such stupidity stand as Irgon and the rest of the Troll Patrol habitually leave here, with no comment, it's kind of like we approve by our silence.
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
Even hostile words are welcome when you have no contact.
Submitted by The Vet on Tue, 10/18/2011 - 11:58am.
And the conspirocrank loon lrgon is so very very very lonely since his buddy Satchmo was banned. Here they are in happier days.
You misrepresent Cain's plan, are you a Tax Attorney too?
Submitted by acaiguana on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 11:48am.
Because Bachmann has two major conflicts of interest in discussing Cain's plan. First, she is a Tax Attorney whose industry relies on keeping the current tax code. Any attempt to liberate the people from the current tax code flies directly at her profession.
Second, Bachmann is a political rival to Cain and therefore makes hay trying to misrepresent his plan. That alone, not to mention her professional politician status, is enough to discredit any comments she makes about the plan.
From Cain's web site: (emphasis is all mine)
•9% Business Flat Tax
◦Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses, all capital investment, and net exports.
◦Empowermen Zones will offer deductions for the payroll of those employed in the zone
•9% Individual Flat Tax.
◦Gross income less charitable deductions.
◦Empowerment Zones will offer additional deductions for those living and/or working in the zone.
•9% National Sales Tax.
◦Unlike a state sales tax, which is an add-on tax that increases the price of goods and services, this is a replacement tax. It replaces taxes that are already embedded in selling prices. By replacing higher marginal rates in the production process with lower marginal rates, marginal production costs actually decline, which will lead to prices being the same or lower, not higher.
•Economic Impact
◦According to former Reagan Treasury official Gary Robbins, of Fiscal Associates, the 9-9-9 Plan will expand GDP by $2 trillion, create 6 million new jobs, increase business investment by one third, and increase wages by 10%
Now, as you can see, contrary to your assertion, "... a 9 percent business transactions tax",
the business tax has nothing to do with a transactions tax. Why are you deliberately misrepresenting this tax? The 9% business tax is a flat tax on gross income less various normal deductions.
If you want to comment on something you ought to understand what you are discussing.
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana notes from the Underground' (Soon to be at theaters near you)
Conservative Economists
Submitted by rance on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 12:36pm.
Conservative economist Larry Kudlow said on his radio show, yesterday, that he did not see how a flat tax and a fair tax could work simultaneously. He also interviewed Rich Lowery, the author of 999. Later in the show, when speaking to conservative economists John McIntire, Jimmy Pethacacus, and Steve Modrey, he said that he was even more confused about how the 9% sales tax was supposed to work after having interviewed Rich Lowery twice. John McIntire, who had some input on the plan, said he never thought there would be so much negative blowback on the 9% sales tax. He is going to to try to talk to Herman this week about changing the sales tax to a payroll deduction. None of the four conservative economists thought the 9% sales tax was a good idea. None!
Love Kudlow
Submitted by Kingfish17 on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 1:25pm.
I've been following Kudlow for as long as he's been around. I wouldn't exactly call him a conservative. He's as Rockefeller, East Coast, country club a Republican as you can get. But I still like him, none-the-less. He's better then a progressive!
I'm not a big fan of a federal sales tax. The one thing a small federal sales tax might do is generate some revenue by those in the underground economy, who won't bother trying to avoid a sales tax of only nine percent. I also think that food should be exempt from all forms of sales tax.
The only way we should do this is by a Constitutional Amendment were strict limits are put in place for the upper end of all three of these taxes.
"You can’t go take a trip to Las Vegas...on the taxpayer’s dime." Barack Obama
Establishment politician types hate losing the payroll deduction
Submitted by acaiguana on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 1:41pm.
The ugly truth is that if they lose the payroll deduction in favor of transparent sales taxes or some other form of taxation; the public can see what is really happening to them.
The struggle over changing the tax code will go forward. There is no easy solution.
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana notes from the Underground' (Soon to be at theaters near you)
I don't understand why Cain
Submitted by redmike on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 8:20pm.
I don't understand why Cain did not just endorse the FairTax. The FairTax seems more thought out. Of course neither play can easily remain revenue neutral after Obama.
Empowerment Zones
Submitted by mom_rox on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 12:45pm.
I need to hear more details about these "empowerment zones". This concept seems ripe for political manipulation.
Let's take a loaf of bread.
Submitted by PeskyDane on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 8:39am.
Let's take a loaf of bread. Well, the producer who makes the flour and he sells it to the baker...
This is almost cruel. To a libtard, this is the equivalence of telling a child there is no Santa Claus.
If it works for Art Laffer, it works for me.
Submitted by acaiguana on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 8:49am.
Cain's the man.
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana notes from the Underground' (Soon to be at theaters near you)
Art Laffer AND Paul Ryan
Submitted by Blonde on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 10:46am.
Works for me, too.
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
Better than 'go with the flow'
Submitted by DontFeedTheTrolls on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 8:51am.
Cain's 9-9-9 plan may be flawed, but at least he HAS a plan, instead of going with the status-quo. Also, i am sure Cain is flexible enough to accept changes in his plan, unlike a certain President I know of.
Best part of Cain's plan is throwing out the bloated IRS code.
Submitted by acaiguana on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 8:54am.
I'm all for removing the current tax code (including use fees, etc.) out the window.
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana notes from the Underground' (Soon to be at theaters near you)
Also, i am sure Cain is
Submitted by Dan The Man 2 on Mon, 10/17/2011 - 5:53am.
Also, i am sure Cain is flexible enough to accept changes in his plan,
He said his plan was not going to be changed. Pretty sure it was more bravado than anything. Yet he may be inflexible, which is not a bad thing.
Is a Federal Sales Tax even legal?
Submitted by Kingfish17 on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 9:05am.
In the early part of the 20th century, the U.S. passed a Constitutional Amendment to make an income tax legal. Do we need to do the same for a federal sales tax? If we go with 9-9-9, I'd like to see an amendment that requires 3/4 the vote of congress in order to raise these rates above 9%, and then any raise would also have to be temporary and expire automatically in ten years.
"You can’t go take a trip to Las Vegas...on the taxpayer’s dime." Barack Obama
King, for better or worse,
Submitted by PeskyDane on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 9:22am.
King, for better or worse, the degree to which one congress can bind a future congress is extremely limited.
And that is why....
Submitted by Kingfish17 on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 10:11am.
And that's is why I said, if we are going to go down the road of a federal sales tax, that we need to do it through the Constitutional Amendment process.
"You can’t go take a trip to Las Vegas...on the taxpayer’s dime." Barack Obama
Well said
Submitted by rance on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 12:41pm.
Well said. Whithout an amendment it is suicide. Everyone that has talked about a fair tax(national sales tax) has said exactly that.
I gotcha.
Submitted by PeskyDane on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 1:11pm.
I gotcha.
Amendments can be repealed
Submitted by CobraMan on Mon, 10/17/2011 - 12:37am.
Amendments can be repealed, it's not that difficult. It's actually easier than making one to begin with. You don't need a 2/3 majority of the States to agree to repeal an Amendment. You juts need a simple majority in both Houses and, of course, the signature of the President. Just look at the 19th amendment for an example.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
Seriously, Cobra Man?
Submitted by Kingfish17 on Mon, 10/17/2011 - 9:25am.
First, I don't think you're talking about the 19th amendment, (often referred to as Women's Suffrage) getting repealed, as women are still allowed to vote.
So for the sake of argument, I'm going to assume you are referring to the 18th amendment, or prohibition, being repealed. Congress did not repeal the 18th amendment. The 18th amendment was repealed by the 21st amendment, ratification by the states being completed on December the 5th, 1933.
Neither Congress, nor the President, nor the Courts, have the power to change, or amend, the Constitution, (although at times it seems that they try their hardest to get away with doing it anyway).
"You can’t go take a trip to Las Vegas...on the taxpayer’s dime." Barack Obama
Congress can repeal laws
Submitted by RESTLESS 1 on Tue, 10/18/2011 - 7:46am.
If we start letting Congress repeal amendments, we are in big trouble.
It would be constitutional
Submitted by CobraMan on Mon, 10/17/2011 - 12:33am.
"Do we need to do the same for a federal sales tax?"
No, not if the tax was uniform across the country.
Article 1, Section 8: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
What Cain says about hidden taxes...
Submitted by loxmyth on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 9:56am.
....needs to be driven home to all these people that want to "tax the rich." Raising corporate taxes will do nothing to help the poor. If you raise the taxes on that baker who makes the bread, he's just going to charge the store more for the loaf. And the store? They are just going to charge the consumer more for the loaf. So, we raised the taxes on the rich baker who actually made the bread, but who actually paid that tax? On the larger scale, the "rich" owners of the corporations will insure they still have their return for the investment they lay out to produce whatever good they make. If it means raising prices, then so be it. And sure, that's greed...but then isn't it also greed that the workers want that raise that caused the prices to go up some? And isn't it greed that makes the "poor" insist they need to be able to buy an x-box, plus the games, even though they can't pay rent/mortgage?
.
Submitted by richard on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 12:39pm.
.
It's so simple, even a loon should be able....
Submitted by richard on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 12:37pm.
....to understand this connect the dots exercise. Lox, yo be sooo right on with your analysis. Americans need to collectively, pull their heads out of their arsses and wake up to the mess this a-hole president has gotten us into. Oh yea, I almost forgot - to all my liberal friends, all together now - IT'S BUSH'S FAULT!!!
Now, do you feel better?
This 9-9-9 is a con game...
Submitted by jdripper on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 10:13am.
First of all the Constitution expressly forbids capitation, direct taxes. Article 1, Section 9. Clause 4 forbids this absolutely. The Congress tried for almost 100 years to get around this and SCOTUS struck down each attempt. So as to do a direct tax the 16th Amendment to the Constitution was passed and ratified allowing a direct tax on INCOME only. The 16th forbid any other type of taxation.
Odd that all of these tea party people want Obamacare stricken down yet this is more invasive then the Obamacare provisions. If Obamacare is stricken down then this won't stand a snowball;s chance in Hell of passage.
To get the sales tax portion passed will require a Constitutional Amendment.
Second the tax on corporations is a Value Added Tax. OK everyone reading this raise your hands for those of you who wish to pay an additional 25% on everything you consume or use. Quick get those hands up.
Herman Cain smells more of the con man then the conservative.
Jack
the 999 plan is not a VAT it is a Sales Tax - big difference
Submitted by acaiguana on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 10:24am.
Why people continue to paint the Sales Tax of Herman Cain as a VAT must be for the purpose of misrepresenting a basic fact of the plan in order to discredit the plan.
Fact, look up the difference in the two taxes.
The sales tax is a consumptive tax on Retail Pricing. The wholesale manufacturing resales are not taxed.
Get it?
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana notes from the Underground' (Soon to be at theaters near you)
What you are saying is not true....
Submitted by jdripper on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 11:08am.
First of all if you could read I said the business/corporate tax not the sales tax. The sales tax is unconstitutional. He proposes taxing after investments which if you knew anything is a VAT. Please get your facts straight in the future.
Jack
You are calling the business cororate tax a VAT?
Submitted by acaiguana on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 11:55am.
Good luck with that one.
If you can read, go up the page to my comment citing Cain's official description of his tax plan.
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana notes from the Underground' (Soon to be at theaters near you)
Thanks ACA*
Submitted by cajun2 on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 12:25pm.
An explanation even I can understand. I also recall the first introduction of a FLAT TAX was in 1961. There have been many presentations of "variations on a theme". This idea has been presented with many different names and 9-9-9 basically has been presented and discussed before. But because it removes the need for hundreds of loopholes, it has always been voted down by Congress. I'm sure you and others have heard of the WHITE PAPERS. I cannot link to the dozen or so White Papers written on Flat Tax proposals over the years because my computer does not translate PDF(?)
I do plan to take your informative posts, share them with family and friends so they can fight the lies the media will spread.
The "Stealth Tax"
Submitted by jpatch on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 10:18am.
I have been talking a lot of taxes lately and my friends and I have come up with a term to describe these hidden costs to the consumer as "Stealth Taxes". I have been hammering this point home over and over to others that every time a tax is levied against the "rich" or the "big business", then nearly all of those new taxes are passed onto us, the consumer, in the form of higher prices and more penalties and more convenience fees for things like gee I don't know DEBIT CARDS????
Anyway, we need to start using the term STEALTH TAX. By leveling the tax playing field it will disincentivize tax fraud and it will incentivize lower prices and competition by producers. Moreover a national sales tax will encourage more discriminating consumption habits by our people which will definitely encourage our nation to start LIVING ON A BUDGET!!!
Go Herman Cain go!! Throw out the tax code!!!!
There are two deliberate misrepresentations of fact about 999.
Submitted by acaiguana on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 10:28am.
The first is that the plan proposes a VAT which is not a Sales Tax. The plan proposes a Sales Tax.
The second is that the plan opens a new 'vein' of taxation to the government.
No, the plan replaces the thousands of veins open to the current government tax system.
Thanks
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana notes from the Underground' (Soon to be at theaters near you)
That is not true what you wrote....
Submitted by jdripper on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 11:11am.
No one is saying or at least no one that I know is saying that the Sales Tax is a VAT. The VAT is his business/corporate tax. He states point blank this tax is after investments and divestitures which makes it a VAT.
Also his sales tax plan is more invasive then Obamacare. It will never pass muster because it is refuted by Article One in the Constitution and the 16th Amendment. Your argument is bogus.
Jack
Jack, his business tax is a flat tax on gross income.
Submitted by acaiguana on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 12:04pm.
After deductions cited below in my cite of his official tax explanation.
There are no corporate income taxes nor are there any nit-picky value added calculations to the products sold. It is a flat tax on gross income. Thereby replacing all the insane tax code 'gifts' and exclusions and deductions so convoluted that no person can understand their implications.
The tax is not on a value added to a product during the wholesale business phase as is the case with a VAT, thereby adding a cost to the production price (wholesale price) to the next person in the supply chain. All businesses pay income taxes and this tax replaces the income tax with a flat tax. VAT is separately calculated and attached to each product, not part of the corporate income tax liability. To live under a VAT is to increase accounting costs on an order of magnitude to a flat tax. Even if you could argue that a flat tax accrues to a product, you cannot argue that a VAT is calculated exactly the same for each product produced. This sort of insanity is what Cain is trying to remove from the tax code.
For example, if a good or a service is taxed at the gross income rate of 9% there is no argument over how to evaluate the 'value added' by a service to a product, in the case of consultants or trainers or marketing firms.
They are two different tax structures. VAT vs Flat.
Get it?
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana notes from the Underground' (Soon to be at theaters near you)
if all taxes are added in, we
Submitted by jkwtrading on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 10:52am.
if all taxes are added in, we pay almost 60% of every dollar earned in taxes. the government gets 60 cents of very dollar of every American and we get 40 cents. They blow their 60 cents on parties and travel and all luxuries for those whom earn nothing.
So true
Submitted by Blonde on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 10:56am.
Have you ever examined your phone bill, electric bill, water bill, garbage bill, satellite/cable bill carefully?
Take the time the next time you pay your bills and figure out how much in "stealth" tax you are paying...I think you'll find it shocking.
I used to do the "franchise fees" for garbage collection at a large hauler for most of the municipalities in South Florida. Over the course of 5 years, I remitted $125,000,000 in taxes to these entities. Yep, $125 million.
The "franchise fees" were supposedly to pay the costs to the municipalities of our trucks using their roads. The fees were levied on all collections, residential, commercial, and construction. The only collection that was exempt was recycling, although the City of Miami, in direct contradiction to State Law, mandated franchise fees on recycling collections as well.
The fees varied by municipality, from a low of 6%....to a high of 22%. On every dollar we earned. In one instance, a municipality had incorporated, and the county (Metro Dade) had passed an ordinance that any newly incorporated area could not preempt any revenues by its incorporation, so those poor residents paid a grand total of 38.5% in franchise fees!
The problem I do see with Cain's national sales tax is the conflict with state sales taxes. But some states don't have a state income tax, instead have a sales tax, so it may be a wash.
The liberals are going crazy with the "low income worker" paying.....but what they don't realize is the low income worker is going to have much more money in his/her pocket to begin with.
But my point is this.....CHECK OUT WHAT YOU ARE PAYING IN STEALTH TAXES, as jpatch called them. You'll be shocked!
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
And another thing
Submitted by Model850 on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 5:00pm.
"The liberals are going crazy with the "low income worker" paying.....but what they don't realize is the low income worker is going to have much more money in his/her pocket to begin with."
Besides that I have yet to hear a single liberal call for the elimination of existing state and/or local sales taxes. If Cain's 9% national sales tax will hit the "poor" harder than the "rich," don't existing sales taxes already do that? By their logic shouldn't all sales taxes be abolished, for the sake of the "low income worker?"
As for calculating what one pays in "stealth taxes?" Not an exercise for the faint of heart!
Government is the problem and
Submitted by jkwtrading on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 10:54am.
Government is the problem and they are not the fix. asking government to fix the problem is like asking a heroin addict to not use heroin.
So let's see, we believe some hack "journalist" with an agenda
Submitted by hbnolikeee on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 11:27am.
or Laffer and Ryan. Keep the crap coming MSM we're on to it and it just underlines how useless and deceitful you are.
We also
Submitted by rance on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 12:51pm.
We also have conservative economists Larry Kudlow, John McIntire, Jimmy Pethacacus and Steve Modrey saying a national sales tax is not a good idea. Keep Ignoring conservative economists.
More propaganda and fear
Submitted by LAM SON 719 on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 11:31am.
More propaganda and fear mongering from the drive by media.
Welllll
Submitted by donabernathy on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 11:35am.
If The MSM don't like it....... Then IT'S GOT MY VOTE>>>>> U GO HERMAN
roflmao
VAT tax versus Flat Tax.
Submitted by acaiguana on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 12:46pm.
A value added tax is a tax on the value any 'owner' of a process in production adds to a product during the supply chain process.
Take a loaf of bread.
The miller buys the grain from the farmer. He mills the grain turning it into flour, thereby adding value to the grain. Whatever price he then sells the flour to the baker represents the amount of value added to the grain, less the cost of grain. The producer of the flour then collects and pays to the government a VAT.
In order to recoup this cost (tax) the flour producer must increase his price to the baker. He can't add back the entire tax to the baker lest he overprice his flour and therefore the VAT depresses the profit to the miller by some amount.
The baker makes a loaf of bread and sells it to you. You pay a price that reflects the value added by the baker. That value being the price less the cost of flour. The baker charges you a VAT of 'x' percent, supposedly calculated on the true value added to the bread by the baker. The baker collects the tax and pays the government.
The VAT at the retail level may be in addition to a sales tax or other taxes. Or the VAT may be the only tax. New Mexico for example, uses a VAT rather than a sales tax.
Then the baker pays his income taxes based on gross income less costs.
Under a flat tax, there is no need for each producer in the supply chain to calculate each and every product's added value. Each producer sells the product at a lower net price versus the VAT to the next person in the supply chain until the retail sale of the product, wherefore a sales tax of 9% is collected.
Each entity in the chain pays their particular 9% flat tax on the overall performance of the business except the retailer who is also collecting a sales tax from the consumer.
This is the difference between a flat and a Value Added Tax. Each step of the VAT artificially increases the price of the good/service sold to the next person in the chain and artificially decreases the income/profit of the supplier/producer. This is not true of a flat tax.
ACA
<Edited for clarity>
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana notes from the Underground' (Soon to be at theaters near you)
Why
Submitted by rance on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 12:58pm.
Why haven't any of the candidates contacted Steve Forbes to get his input on changing our graduated income tax to a flat tax? That's a retorical question. But, I think the candidate that suggests a flat tax first will get the nomination. And, we don't need a Constitutional Amendment to make it legal.
How Conservatives Kill Tax Reform
Submitted by upcountrywater on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 2:07pm.
Compliance with the code costs the U.S. Economy $340 billion pear year.
The question we should ask about 9-9-9 is not , “Is this tax reform proposal perfect?” Instead we should ask, “Will this new tax system be better for America than what we have now?”
More....
Meet Herman Cain's kitchen cabinet of advisers
Cain has repeatedly declined to name the people involved with crafting the plan besides Rich Lowrie, Cain’s chief economic adviser, a Cleveland-based wealth manager for Wells Fargo who is not a trained economist. But it was Robbins, an economist who has worked for Steve Forbes’s flat-tax campaigns and was a longtime Treasury employee, who conducted a 10-page analysis of the plan in September. Robbins found the plan to be revenue neutral, as Cain’s been trumpeting in recent debates and in interviews
You Didn't Build That.
Again
Submitted by rance on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 2:15pm.
Again, Larry Kudlow and three other conservative economists stated yesterday that a 9% sales tax is a BAD idea. John McIntire, an economist who had some input to Herman's plan, said that he would suggest to Herman that he change the sales tax to a payroll deduction because of the overwhelming negative blowback. The direct answer to your question is in the long run it will be worse.
You keep saying conservative economists --- bad idea.
Submitted by acaiguana on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 3:39pm.
Based on what reasons?
I don't get it. You do cite some source, but no citations regarding the reason these people think a 9% sales tax is a bad idea.
That's not good enough.
Why do they say such a thing?
Simply because it does away with payroll deductions? I still don't get it.
ACA
...
Quoted from: 'Acaiguana notes from the Underground' (Soon to be at theaters near you)
Media's NUMBER ONE JOB: DESTROY HERMAN CAIN
Submitted by gopcongress on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 1:34pm.
With Sarah Palin out of the race, the Mainstream Media is now on a mission to ensure that NO conservative gets the nomination for president. To that end, their number one mission in life is to keep Herman Cain out of the picture, as he is the only person left who can become the biggest conservative since Reagan to become president. As part of this mission, they are going to do their damnedest to get Mitt Romney nominated.
From now on look for puff pieces on Romney, and if Cain is still hovering, they may even try to re-elevate Perry to double-team Cain. Romney, of course, would be a disaster as he is Obama-lite in his experience. But right now, the media has their sights set squarely on Herman Cain.
"The news and truth are not the same thing." -Walter Lippmann (1889-1974) FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER
Actually
Submitted by rance on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 2:18pm.
Actually, the day after the last debate, the person most attacked by the Media was Michele Bachman. Cain was barely mentioned.
Why is Herman Cain resonating with the American Citizenry
Submitted by Retired Geek on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 4:06pm.
Barack Obama is embarrassed that he is an American and many of us think he is an embarrassment to the United States throughout the World.
Why is Herman Cain resonating with the American Citizenry?
We are looking for someone who has solutions and is a success in Life and Business.
Someone who knows how to 'Solve Problems' - NOT cause problems like the 'Community Organizer now occupying the White House.
Washington needs to have fundamental substantive changes in taxes and spending.
Most of the rest of the GOP Candidates are saying, I'm going to do a little less of what Barack Obama is doing and Barack Obama is saying, I'm going to do a lot more of what I've been doing.
http://thpatriots.blogspot.com/2011/09/herman-cains-999-plan.html
Why can states do it but not the federal govt?
Submitted by crosspatch on Sun, 10/16/2011 - 5:33pm.
Our state and local sales tax is right about 9% where I live. If the states and localities can do it, why can't the federal government? Why is it such a horror story if only the federal government taxes people through a sales tax?
Sales tax captures tax on unreported income. Every time someone who is engaging in drug dealing, prostitution, under the table employment, etc. buys a Pepsi they pay some tax on that unreported income.
Poor people see a huge percentage of their income go to rent and food, both of which are generally exempt from sales taxes. So in that sense the poor get a bigger tax break than "the rich".
We have a lot of people hiding a lot of income. There are people who sell stuff on eBay or even panhandle for a living that are not declaring that income but they eventually spend it. I know of women doing daycare "under the table" making pretty good money watching 3 or 4 kids during the day who don't pay tax on that money. This would give a way to capture some of that. It is really difficult to cheat on avoiding sales tax.
Also we have over 45% of our people paying either no income tax or getting back more than they have withheld. While there probably should be some in that position, I think it should be something closer to 5 to 10 percent not close to 50.
I am in favor of eliminating income tax altogether for everyone making under $100,000 per year and going to a national sales tax instead. No more withholding, no more income tax filing for most wage earners and you pay your tax at the 7/11.
Isikoff is Stupid
Submitted by AdrianVance on Mon, 10/17/2011 - 1:34pm.
He does not realize that cutting corporate taxes from 35% to 9% means that prices on everything we buy will go down more than the 9% sales tax! You can't fix stupid.
The Two Minute Conservative at http://adrianvance.blogspot.com has political analysis, science and humor. Now in the top 3% on Kindle.
9-9-9
Submitted by Agnostic on Tue, 10/18/2011 - 7:00am.
Not exactly but essentially you are correct. On most items prices will probably not drop very much but you will see a lot more discounts and various types of 'sales'.
Isikoff is Stupid
Submitted by AdrianVance on Mon, 10/17/2011 - 1:34pm.
He does not realize that cutting corporate taxes from 35% to 9% means that prices on everything we buy will go down more than the 9% sales tax! You can't fix stupid.
The Two Minute Conservative at http://adrianvance.blogspot.com has political analysis, science and humor. Now in the top 3% on Kindle.
Isikoff is a toad
Submitted by greatj on Mon, 10/17/2011 - 9:24pm.
This is the leftist piece of trash who started the koran down the toilet lies.Isikoff is a Obama and the Democratic party toady who will say anything to damage the Republican party.
Seems there is nothing members of the media can do
Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 10/18/2011 - 7:40am.
To get themselves fired and thrown out of the jern0list profession.
Why are they promoting and organizing to destruction of our country? What do they hope to gain?