It amuses and gratifies a supporter of the Second Amendment to see the New York Times, the so-called "paper of record," so constantly reduced to sputtering fools over their constant loss in the battle for draconian gun control measures, and the July 17th editorial from the Times is yet another example of how they just don't understand why the average American would pressure their Congressional representatives to support the U.S. Constitution and its 2nd Amendment.
The Times is famous for claiming to be the intelligent side of the debate on any particular issue. They claim to represent the sane or "real" American argument on the issues of the day and it is generally assumed by their supporters that they only use the highest professional standards in language and the tools of persuasion. They call themselves the "paper of record" and congratulate themselves on their status as the grown-ups of political discourse. But, they come apart at the seams whenever the 2nd Amendment is brought up, that supposed high level of discourse lowered to the sputtering, gibberish of any common extremist, the logic drained out of their efforts.
It is even more amusing that they are so shocked that their beloved 2006 Democratic Congress is thus far no better at eliminating an important part of the law of the land than any past Congress has been.
Leadership of Congress has shifted to the Democrats, but the National Rifle Association’s power to block sensible steps to curb gun violence endures. Last week, a bipartisan majority of the House Appropriations Committee bowed to the N.R.A.’s warped agenda and rebuffed two attempts to repeal a four-year-old measure that denies police and local governments broad access to federal data needed to effectively combat illegal gun trafficking.
We all know of the Times's hate for the NRA, so to see them called "warped" in a Times editorial is no shock... until one juxtaposes the Times’ claims of employing a higher standard of political discourse with the intemperate language they constantly use against those whom they hate, that is.
Be that as it may, this particular editorial shows the NYT for the unhinged extremists that they are for the logic of the thing doesn't even stand up to sensible scrutiny.
The "grown-ups" continue:
Notwithstanding this disappointing denouement, progress on another significant gun issue is tantalizingly close. Just a few weeks ago, senior Congressional Democrats reached agreement with the N.R.A. on a measure that would improve screening of prospective gun buyers for disqualifying mental health problems.
Wait a minute, NYT. If the N.R.A. is so "warped" how can they be sensible enough to compromise and settle on a "significant gun issue," one you agree with? Being able to compromise would indicate more that they are thoughtful opponents as opposed to extremists who can never compromise, wouldn't it?
So, on one hand they call the N.R.A. "warped" then agree that they are able to compromise.
Sorry, "grown-ups", but you can't have it both ways. In fact, the name calling on your part makes it seem more like YOU are the extremists, not them.
But, is anyone really surprised at the Times's intemperate language?
















Comments Policy
Twisting the Tiahrt Amendment
July 19, 2007 - 05:08 ET by Tim GrahamWarner, we've been discussing the deeply anti-gun bias on this issue on the "Cam & Company" show at NRANews.com. This hasn't been much of an issue outside the newspapers, but the amendment in question is sponsored by Rep. Todd Tiahrt of Kansas, and is routinely described in inaccurate liberal terms as denying information to cops. David Kopel at the Volokh Conspiracy explained:
Guns
July 19, 2007 - 05:52 ET by allanfIt is virtually impossible to obtain a permit to carry a weapon on New York City. In a city of 8 million there are about 4,000 carry permits. A permit allows the holder to carry a particular weapon with specified serial number. Of the 4,000 permits, hundreds are to judges, assistant district attorneys and armored car guards.
One can understand that in a crowded urban environment, the discharging of a firearm is very dangerous. However, New York City as ensured by the nature of its regulations that only criminal will have guns. Tighter national gun enforcement will not change this problem for New York.
What might help, but they
July 19, 2007 - 06:55 ET by sarcasmoWhat might help, but they wouldn't ever do it, is if NY state simply respected other states' carry permits, since permit holders tend NOT to be the criminals/cowboys the NYT desperately wants to portray, the facts be damned...
JMR
Crime rate
July 19, 2007 - 05:58 ET by NortoBeliever
The state with lowest crime rate and virtually no gun laws 'cept for tha national registration part, even for underage types, is the most liberal in the nation. It even lets its folks walk around naked as long as certain criteria are met in Brattleboro. That's right, VERMONT.
1st, I'm pro Second
July 19, 2007 - 11:45 ET by Ten7s1st, I'm pro Second Amendment. But I always get a chuckle when people bring up points like yours. I remember a while back there was a public school perfomance debate. And a couple of posters kept bringing up with beaming pride how well their state's public schools were and going on about "this" and "that" and "the other" liberal program. They came from states like Massachusetts and Vermont. Gee, I wonder why those public school systems outperform say Mississippi's or New Mexico's? [/sarc]
Times Honcho Sulzberger Carries a Gun
July 19, 2007 - 06:07 ET by allanfAccording to Enter Stage Right, one of the few firearm carry permits issued in New York City is to New York Times publisher Arthur Sulzberger JR
Oddly, Tim's links above
July 19, 2007 - 07:00 ET by sarcasmoOddly, Tim's links above work, but your link doesn't. But it's not like I doubt you a bit -- of all hypocrites, left-wing gun-hypocrites are probably the most-blatant, and this would be just another one fitting the pattern. At least the various sexual hypocrites out there take half-assed measures to hide what they like to do, even if they tend to shy away from an honest debate regarding making the planet's oldest profession legal.
JMR
Let's try that link again
July 19, 2007 - 07:27 ET by allanfPerhaps it is the new blog software. Let me try the link again http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0102/0102gunlaws.htm
Broken link
July 19, 2007 - 08:24 ET by kbworkmanI got the link using view source. It works here.
Try this one.
Pink Pistols
July 19, 2007 - 08:51 ET by stratmanThe linked article has quotes from a spokesman from Pink Pistols, a gay gun rights advocacy group. The article refers to them as a "civil rights group" only without reference to the root reason for their existence - discrimination against gays who are gun owners too and a desire to protect themselves like anyone else.
The Pink Pistols is one of those groups that absolutely confounds Liberals. On the one hand, Liberals are compelled to support any gay cause but on the other hand they are abhorred by anything/anyone in support of firearms. The Liberal confusing schism created is, as one NB writer is fond of saying, delicious!
Pink Pistols plus gay Republicans equals Liberal blown fuses.
I don't think the Pink
July 19, 2007 - 09:04 ET by sarcasmoI don't think the Pink Pistols are all that thrilling to various anti-gay conservatives, either, but considering the origin of the group it's no surprise...
JMR
Agree.Pink Pistols as a
July 19, 2007 - 09:19 ET by stratmanAgree.
Pink Pistols as a group creates controversy for both Liberal and Conservative sides.
Wonder how Rosie O'Anarchist would treat them? Afterall, she's gay and hates guns and people that own guns, except for her bodyguards that is.
I think she'd hire 'em as
July 19, 2007 - 16:05 ET by sarcasmoI think she'd hire 'em as "bodyguards with benefits." And IMO Rosie's actually a statist, which is the opposite of (real, Lysander Spooner style/traditional) anarchists.
JMR
Bene's And The Jets
July 19, 2007 - 19:20 ET by stratmanLOL.
Would they be similar benefits alledgedly given by Arafat personally to his bodyguards (gay trysts)?
She is definately a Statist who appears to me to advocate Anarchistic-like methods to overthrow the Bush administration.
How about Rosie as a Reese's Cup analogy:
Youve got Statism in my Anarchy. No, you've got Anarchy in my Statism. Two great mistakes in one - Anachro-Statism!
Hey, it's not hard to
July 19, 2007 - 19:02 ET by Jack BauerHey, it's not hard to "confound" lib***ls.
They're not very bright you know.
Evening Jack... You're up
July 19, 2007 - 19:11 ET by bigtimerEvening Jack...
You're up late aren't ya..or up extra early?
Just wanted to say hi real quick friend....plus of course I agree with your post...
Naturally.
Setting the Record Straight
July 19, 2007 - 07:43 ET by BeowulfThe wonderfully informed NYT , with their informed, intelligent debate, conveniently neglects to mention that Chuck Canterbury, National President of the Fraternal Order of Police and Michael Sullivan, Acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, BOTH clearly and succinctly refute all claims that there is any difficulty in obtaining firearm trace data for legitimate criminal investigations. The Tiahrt amendment prohibits NON-law enforcement requests for such data - NON-law enforcement requests such as those of big-city mayors trolling for ammo for their frivolous law suits, which, BTW, have been banned by federal law yet in some cases are still proceeding despite their inherent illegality. Indeed, Bloomberg, assisted by such intellectual media giants as the NYT, outright LIE to promote thier agenda. Bloomberg came right out and stated that "Hard as it is to believe, right now federal law prevents our police officers from looking at all the data on guns used in crimes in our region. When and where were they bought - and by whom. These are questions that we can't ask" - [Newsweek, April 30 2007] This is an outright lie. Bloomberg knows it, Newsweek knows it, the rest of the media knows it, the FOP and ATF certainly know it. The only ones who don't know it are the average citizens under the thumb of Bloomberg and his cronies (another convenient ommision is that Bloomberg's "coalition of mayors" has been steadlity losing membership as his radicalism becomes more pronounced and some media outlets have begun refusing to promote his propaganda). Bloomberg also went on to label the Fraternal Order of Police a "Fringe Organization", the instant they contradicted his lies (I haven't heard anything about what he called the BATFE after they called him out).
Canterbury, of the FOP, went on to clarify that "investigations" such as those conducted by Bloomberg (at taxpayer expense) are of dubious legality, and have directly or indirectly interfered with legitimate criminal investigations, compromising the investigations and potentially placing law enforcement officer's lives at risk. He specifically cited four cases that were compromised and another fourteen that were put at risk. And most of Bloomberg's "investigations" were well outside his legal jurisdiction, most outside of his entire state.
Sullivan clearly states that the ATF routinely shares trace data with state and local law enforcement in support of investigations within their respective jurisdictions. He goes on to again clearly say that neither congressional language or ATF rules prohibit the sharing of trace data with law enforcement conducting criminal investigations, or place any restrictions on the sharing of trace data with other jurisdictions once it is in the hands of state or local law enforcement.
Let's be clear here. Trace data is exactly what it seems - following a firearm from the manufacturer to the gun's purchaser, and all subsequent documented transfers. Trace data is not exclusively a criminal matter going back through the paper trail to the manufacturer. A gun, legally manufactured, purchased, and transferred to subsequent owners, which then is identified with a crime, does not retrace blame to the original owner or the manufacturer. The gun could have been stolen or lost and wound up in the hands of a criminal. The trace can often show the reported theft, therefore absolving the owner of blame for illegally transferring the weapon, and providing important investigative information on the gun.
There is absolutely no constructive, legitimate reason for this data to be released to politicians, except for the potential legal proceedings against people not responsible for the criminal misuse of the gun. Mayors do not run police investigations, do not arrest and prosecute those suspected of committing a crime, and do not have any need whatsoever for firearm trace data. The Tiahrt Amendment prohibits them from obtaining law enforcement sensitive date to which they have no legitimate or legal need to access. The Tiahrt Amendment does not, and never has, limited law enforcement access to trace date in any way.
The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers
Thank You
July 19, 2007 - 09:10 ET by stratmanExcellent post.
Have you considered sending this in to your newspaper's editorial/opinion page?
Thanks
July 19, 2007 - 12:25 ET by BeowulfThanks for the praise and the encouragement stratman, but no, I'm not interested in trying to get an editorial on this. The reason is simple - those who use their brain cells already know most of this, those who don't won't listen. And I don't have the time or inclination to try to beat on a biased newspaper (of which most are) to get them to post something like this. I'd rather post on forums such as NB where thinking people go to become more informed on issues. Thanks.
The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers
I am outraged that the NRA
July 19, 2007 - 07:44 ET by fosstenI am outraged that the NRA is compromising with the antigun left on the "mental health" issue. Now doctors will be able to deny Americans their 2nd Amendment rights with the stroke of a pen. There is no provision to punish federal agents for making mistakes, either.
Thank you, NRA.
Forget 911, I dial 9MM.
While I don't
July 19, 2007 - 10:36 ET by BeowulfWhile I don't know every detail of the "compromise" on the mental health issue, I have to disagree with saying the NRA "sold out". The NRA has always been about common sense measures while protecting the 2nd. As anyone who has purchased a firearm knows, all you have to do is certify on the BATFE Form 4473 that you "Have never been adjudicated mentally defective and have never been committed to a mental institution". There is, and has never been, any means or requirement to verify this statement. It asks if you've been convicted of a felony, which is verified through NICS. So why is it so hard to accept that there is a need to verify someone's mental competance before handing them a gun? While I was, and still am, very uncomfortable with those pols who are associated with this issue, it doesn't demean the necessity of verifying someone's mental stability. Especially after the VT shootings. If you think about it, the NRA, by supporting such common sense (real common sense - not the anti's version of it) they headed off the Columbine type sensationalism that the left ALWAYS uses to pound their philosophies. The guns were legally purchased, so the anti's could've jumped all over another outright gun ban proposal (since they were obtained legally, obviously the law needs to be changed). When the mental health aspect rose up, the NRA used it as something legitimately needful to divert the gun ban agenda from gaining any momentum.
The key issue on this legislation will be the controls on who is or is not "mentally unstable", who makes the determination, and what appeal process is in place to rebut erroneous findings.
The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers
"When the mental health
July 19, 2007 - 11:42 ET by stratman"When the mental health aspect rose up, the NRA used it as something legitimately needful to divert the gun ban agenda from gaining any momentum."
That is a slippery slope my friend. Legitimate laws and guidelines should never be proposed because the anti-gunners make a stink or to divert attention from the anti-gun crowd. That smacks of concessions to the emotionally driven, cherry pickers of facts, self-appointed arbitrers of anti-liberty and personal responsibility.
I have mixed thoughts on physicians determining whom should have firearms. In my State, physician's diagnosing/treating those with seizure disorder were required by law to report the patient to the Bureau of Motor Vehicles. The patient's priviledge to drive was yanked until they were seizure free for one year. Reasonable sounding law since having a seizure while driving may bring catastrophic consequences. The law was repealed and it is now a crime if a physician were to do that today, in part due to HIPAA privacy laws. Having a seizure and then perscribing medications does not guarantee being seizure free in the short term (nor in the long term). A newly diagnosed seizure patient can continue to drive despite their physician advocating they do not. Individual liberties and responsibilities trump public safety. Is this a good thing?
Now we have the spector of physicians determining patient eligibility for firearm ownership. The guidelines, which will be convoluted no doubt, will place physicians as the fulcrum of the State and the object of anger of the patient. And the physician will no doubt be held legally liable for actions by their patients by savvy attorneys looking for the next multimillion dollar payoff. The courts currently remove firearms from a household where familial violence is suspected or known, and this is done without the patient's personal physician getting in the middle of a domestic dispute. It is encumbent on all physicians to report to the authorities/target a patient's homicidal ideation if the physician believes it is more than just passing thought. Is a patient with depression or anxiety disorders or obsessive-compulsive disorders or a vast number of -philias to be denied firearm ownership when they are not homicidal or suicidal?
Why is a seizure patient allowed to drive when their seizures are not yet managed long term yet someone with a nonviolent psychiatric illness redshirted? Exactly why are personal liberties and individual responsibilities applied to one and not the other?
The simple ugly fact in the VT shooter case was that the system failed to handle the shooter and his mental illness according to the laws of the State which then enabled him to further his delusions into realities. Just as with the complete breakdown and unobserved Local and State guidelines in New Orleans during the hurricane were blamed on a larger player (the Federal Government), so too is the VT killer and firearms.
Who doesn't want firearms kept from criminals including homicidal/suicidal psychiatric patients? No one, of course, except for the homicidal/suicidal criminal or psychiatric patient. I am waiting to see the Charlie Foxtrot our Federal, State, and/or Local governments come up with concerning reporting patients in this context. I can't wait (sarcasm) to see the song and dance from the American Medical Association and the State and Local medical societies as well.
Agreed
July 19, 2007 - 12:39 ET by BeowulfOh, believe me stratman, I agree 100%. That's why I threw in the disclaimer at the end of my post "The key issue on this legislation will be the controls on who is or is not "mentally unstable", who makes the determination, and what appeal process is in place to rebut erroneous findings". Doctors are notoriously anti and are supported and encouraged by the AMA. I would no more endorse a single physician making such a decision than I would hand a loaded gun to someone twitching and drooling. My point is that the NRA didn't cave in to the anti's. And they didn't jump on this aspect only to divert attention. When has the NRA ever failed to stand up to a fight? I'm saying they endorsed something needed for our public safety (something real - not propagandized), which also had the effect of defusing gun-ban rhetoric. I for one only heard a very small and short-lived amount of gun banners, unlike incidents like Columbine. Most of the anti's got into the mental health issue quickly, and stayed with it.
Again, before legislation is proposed, ESPECIALLY with the support of the anti-gunners, it needs to be thoroughly vetted by 2nd Amendment supporters for just such dangers as you have posed here.
The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers
Agree
July 19, 2007 - 16:01 ET by stratmanAny legislation attempting to codify rules for physician reporting of "dangerous" patients had better be specific and incontrovertible, a checklist that is unchallengable by plantiff's attorneys. As such, I do not see this happening easily or soon.
Even trained psychiatrists of tenure are not correct all the time, let alone the primary care physicians to whom this extra burden of responsibility will fall. Physicians are already encumbent to report patient's they deem emminently harmful to themselves or others. Physicians are still sued for abridging patient's rights despite best intention. And knowing when someone is about to go nuclear is not an exact science - asking the obligatory "Are you thinking of harming yourself or someone else" is not completely reliable (especially when thoughts and feeling change on a day to day basis), and is kind of like asking on the firearms application if you have mental illness or felony conviction issues. Everyone is always honest, right?
All we can do is wait and see the proposed legislation and then vet the parameters.
BTW, your observation on physicians, particularly the newer generations, as being anti-Second Amendment is spot on. Heaven help you if you are in a gaggle of physicians and you support gun ownership rights. Been there, disgusted with that.
On a brighter note, my cousin, a dentist, who grew up in a Liberal anti-gun home, recently took up the shooting sports after he worked in New Orleans area as part of Homeland Security (Forensic dentistry - joined after 9/11). Seems he and his group were left alone at times and there was a concern for safety by marauding criminal elements in the Gulf area. My cousin wants to be able to defend himself if necessary while on his Homeland Security deployments. My uncle, an avid recreational target shooter and reloader (loves his S&W Model 52), has been instructing him in firearm safety and the shooting arts. Owing to his steady hands and ability to understand and follow direction my cousin did very well from the get go. Future Camp Perry Nationals material??
So, all is not lost concerning educating people on firearms matters with your previous post. I understand your reasoning but hope you'll reconsider submitting your fine exposition for publishing.
Kudos
July 20, 2007 - 07:08 ET by BeowulfKudos to your cuz. All it usually takes is a little familiarization for people to get into the shooting sports (along with a healthy dose of unadultered common sense - i.e. the crime in and around New Orleans).
As for your Uncle, he has fine taste in firearms. The 52 a one sweet shooter. I've had one for years. When I was on active duty, I was touting it up to a firearms instructor I knew. He didn't believe all my raves about it, until he handled it (I gave him one free dry-fire - it would have been a buck a pull after that). Camp Perry is a valuable experience even without competing, and it will expose your cuz to the real class of firearms owners. He'll see then what it's all about. If more anti's went and saw for themselves, we'd have far fewer controversy.
As for publishing, maybe I will consider it.
The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers
Ideology vs. Intelligence
July 19, 2007 - 18:21 ET by LeroyBrown5000I am all for energetic defense of our civil rights (what could be considered more of a civil right than the right to defend oneself from violent oppression?) but the reflexive and uninformed reactions to HR 2640 do the pro-2nd movement ZERO favors.
My job requires, among other things, reading and analyzing legislation. I have read this legislation, in its entirety, numerous times. It's only 26 pages (something to celebrate in DC in and of itself). I encourage others in the pro-2nd movement to do the same to educate yourselves and to correct the gross inaccuracies being spread by the Brady Campaign and the MSM. To comment on such an important issue while ingnorant of the facts - no matter how well-intentioned you may be - does the pro-2nd movement a disservice.
If ever there was an excellent piece of legislation, this is it. It is a "gun law" that actually puts no more of a legal burden on a gun purchaser than is already present in federal statute. In fact, if anything, it is a law imposing itself ON GOVERNMENT, both state and federal, requiring them to get their act together. It requires state and federal agencies to submit to the Attorney General electronically formatted files on those who cannot lawfully purchase a firearm but it in no way expands the definition of those who cannot lawfully purchase a firearm.
Saying this legislation makes your 2nd Amendment rights subject to the pen of a doctor is completely false. An individual must have been ADJUDICATED as mentally defective or have been INVOLUNTARILY committed to a mental institution. Guess what? That is already the law. A state must now provide written proof of this in order for an individual to be included in NICS.
Additionally, saying this legislation prohibits any recourse if one is found to be mentally defective or if one has been involuntarily committed is completely false. In fact, in order for a state to receive any federal financial assistance to come into compliance with the reporting requirements of HR 2640, the state is REQUIRED to establish procedures for individuals to apply for firearms eligibility, appeal an adjudicated ruling and even TO HAVE ACCESS TO STATE COURTS for de novo review.
The federal agency requirements on decisions regarding mental health go even further to narrow what can be included in NICS. It says that inclusion in NICS as being ineligible to purchase or possess a firearm cannot even be solely based on a medical diagnosis but must also include a "specific finding that the person is dangerous or mentally incompetent."
Some have tried to go so far as to say that if you are treated for depression, anxiety or any other mental health issue that millions of Americans voluntarily seek treatment and help for that you will now be stripped of your 2nd Amendment rights. Garbage. I know because my initial motivation to read the bill was because I heard that lie being spread and feared that the simple fact that I had ADD meant I would have the ATF calling for my 1911s, field guns and AR if the bill was passed. The legislation does nothing of the kind. No person seeking voluntary psychological treatment, counseling or hospitalization can be deprived of their 2nd Amendment rights. That information retains all current HIPAA privacy protections and is completely ineligible for submittal to the AG, much less inclusion in the NICS.
Finally, this legislation permanently prohibits the imposition of any federal fee or tax on those undergoing a NICS check. This effectively kills any attempt to circumvent the 2nd Amendment and eliminate gun ownership through some kind of outrageous 21st century "stamp tax."
The NRA didn't cave. In fact, by definition they didn't even compromise because not one line of this legislation infringes on my 2nd Amendment rights or undercuts the platform principles for which the NRA stands and for which I am a member.
Illuminating
July 19, 2007 - 21:08 ET by stratmanThank you for your informative post.
HR 2640 has passed in the House and has been sent to the Senate. It does appear to be very much as you said. Full text can be read http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.r.02640: (Include the colon ":" for the link to work. The forum software didn't include it as hypertext.)
Using the abbreviated version at http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:HR02640:@@@D&summ2=m& (add the "&" to make link work), I have some questions about these passages:
Does this mean that ONLY court abjudicated mental defectiveness and court ordered forced placement in a psychiatric institution will be entered in the master computer files for rejection of firearms ownership? Physician's can "Pink Slip" patient's they deem "mentally defective" (ugly choice of words), an involuntary psychiatric institution placement. Is the physician or hospital required to notify the state in this case or only after the legal system makes a determination?
Since psychiatric illnesses can be difficult to treat, requiring lengthy treatments and a possibility of relapse which can occur outside of intermittent relationship between patient and physician, will the patient on antidepressents for months to years be unable to own firearms during the entire treatment period despite no current professed suicidal/homicidal ideation? Who makes this determination and how are the parties notified?
Are all voluntary placements in psychiatric institutions or outpatient care NOT covered in this resolution (as long as there is no homicidal/suicidal ideation)? If so, what if the patient has homicidal/suicidal ideation? I've seen people voluntarily hospitalized that have violent ideation. Will the physician be responsible for reporting the patient to the state/fed.? According to the language of the resolution, who "finds" the patient to be a danger to self or others and in what context?
Supposedly some of my questions concerning "`adjudicated as a mental defective', `committed to a mental institution', and related terms have the meanings given those terms in regulations implementing section 922(g)(4) of title 18, United States Code". (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/44/sections/section_922.html) Unfortunately, the explicit answers to my questions are not found therein. Maybe someone can clarify for me.
The devil is in the details, boys and girls.
Here is the problem with the legislation...
July 19, 2007 - 11:47 ET by c5thenIt allows a single doctor to enter your name into a national database stating that you have a mental issue that will prohibit you from exercizing a Constitutional right. There is no process of appeal and there is no ramifications should the decision of the doctor eventually be found to be erroneous by a court.
Never before has one person been able to legally abridge the Constitutional rights of another. This law sets up the premis of guilty until proven innocent
The day that "politician" became a career choice is the day we started losing the Republic
Nope
July 19, 2007 - 07:54 ET by ValendilNope, no surprise here. Card-carring member of said "warpped" organization!
DO'NT GIVE THE GUN-GRABBERS THIS VICTORY. We will ALL be sorry.
July 19, 2007 - 12:18 ET by Dave RJust a few weeks ago, senior Congressional Democrats reached agreement
with the N.R.A. on a measure that would improve screening of
prospective gun buyers for disqualifying mental health problems.
Those of you who think this to be a reasonable compromise need to remember one thing: There is no shortage of liberal doctors out there that consider Christians (not to mention conservatives in general) to be mentally ill.
You may think I'm being a little out there, but just look at how many state & local governments, including our own federal government, gleefully restrict the rights of Christians on a daily basis.
I can see all kinds of abuse coming our way. Remember, the liberals aim is to disarm us, and I don't believe in compromising with them in ANY WAY.
This is the sort of nonsense that caused me to drop my NRA membership over ten years ago.
Help Fred defeat the RINOs, along with the Hitllary-Obama Axis, & win the White House in '08.
No No Dave R, All
July 19, 2007 - 12:19 ET by LeonNo No Dave R,
All Christians aren't mentally Ill.
Just the ones that believe in strict interpretation of the Bible.
I.E. Noah actually had a giant boat with 2 of every species that ever lived on the earth (since every animal that has ever existed was created at the same exact time by God during the first 7 days)
As far as I'm concerned, this is truly mental illness and to be honest I don't feel comfortable with someone that can't seperate fantasy from reality owning a gun.
Leon,
July 19, 2007 - 12:31 ET by Dave RI don't feel comfortable with someone that can't seperate fantasy from reality owning a gun.
I have several liberal friends who own guns.
Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.
There is no end to the ways this "compromise" could be, and would be, abused by the government.
Help Fred defeat the RINOs, along with the Hitllary-Obama Axis, & win the White House in '08.
The old Christian bashing
July 19, 2007 - 12:35 ET by TruthMongerThe old Christian bashing routine - how pathetic
do I actually have to become a liberal and help these people out myself?!?!?!?
Gay haters unite!
How is it bashing when it's
July 19, 2007 - 12:38 ET by LeonHow is it bashing when it's true?
You do believe that Noah had 2 of every animal ever to live on the planet on his ark.
And it's also true, that this belief is insane.
So where's the bashing?
"it's true" "Where's
July 19, 2007 - 12:44 ET by TruthMonger"it's true"
"Where's the bashing?"
Unbelievable...
Yes, Noah had 2 of every animal - demonstrate it otherwise, please...
Remember the big guy upstairs was lending mucho assistance...
Again faith is believing in the ridiculous - and I'd call going against God insane, myself:)
Gay haters unite!
Amazing, homosexuality is
July 19, 2007 - 12:46 ET by Conservative VoiceAmazing, homosexuality is no longer considered mental illness becaues of politics, but according to Doctor Leon being a Christian who believes in Noah should see a shrink and take schizo drugs.
A person's religion doesn't make them insane. What is insane is putting your faith in men, especially if that person is a lying politician.
Liberalism 1010101
July 19, 2007 - 12:49 ET by TruthMongerI was wondering if the peds were mentally ill, however - Leon says so - I'm not sure how that is possible, though - but I'm learning:)
Gay haters unite!
"seperate fantasy from
July 19, 2007 - 12:35 ET by MightyMouth"seperate fantasy from reality owning a gun"
That probably means John Edwards doesn't own a gun as he thinks global terrorism is a fantasy. But then that might apply to Leon also as he thinks all the worlds problems began with George W. Bush.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Good one Dave, I'd still
July 19, 2007 - 12:37 ET by LeonGood one Dave,
I'd still take a delusional liberal whose biggest fantasy belief is that Bush lied than a fanatical Christian that believes the world is 6,000 years old.
At worst, the liberal with that belief will be annoying on the internet and in the coffee shops they frequent.
Okay Dave, since
July 19, 2007 - 12:57 ET by BeowulfOkay Dave, since you just had to go there, answer me a simple question. Of all the recent "shooting masacres", how many were perpetrated by bible-thumping Christians? The stricter a Christian's beliefs, the more pacifistic they tend to become. And Faith isn't the same as fantasy.
If you don't know the difference, you're in trouble. If you do know the difference and are still spewing such tripe, you're pitiful.
If you think that BDS isn't more damaging to our society as a whole than someone who truly believes everything in the Bible, you are dangerous.
The Closed Mind Erects Strong Barriers
As a reliable document that
July 19, 2007 - 13:09 ET by vrwc13As a reliable document that NO ONE has found error in (although many have made the claim, none can back it up), the Bible very well documents the time of Adam and Eve as about 6,000 years ago.
As far as the age of the Earth, that is a different issue. Genesis 101: The first verse of Genesis states that God created the heavens and the earth. Period. THEN it goes on to say NOW the Earth WAS formless and void and the Spirit WAS hovering OVER it!
The Earth was and was being hovered over. The same Earth that Satan himself had ruled over BEFORE Adam and Eve.
Maybe you and your church needs to read its "plain old Bible"
"At worst, the liberal with that belief will be annoying on the internet and in the coffee shops they frequent."
At worst, at a liberal believes in devalueing human life. I would be more worried about a "baby-killing" liberal with a gun than a "Bible-thumping" Christian.
At worst, the liberal with
July 19, 2007 - 14:11 ET by florida_chadAt worst, the liberal with that belief will be annoying on the internet and in the coffee shops they frequent.
Don't be so hard on yourself........
So a religious belief is
July 19, 2007 - 12:41 ET by Conservative VoiceSo a religious belief is grounds to be labeled mental illness? Leon, shame on you that is the most unAmerican statement you made.
It's quite simple really -
July 19, 2007 - 12:46 ET by TruthMongerIt's quite simple really - those that disagree with Leon have a mental illness - can't beat that my friend!
Gay haters unite!
CV, That's an unfair
July 19, 2007 - 12:52 ET by LeonCV,
That's an unfair statement.
Only specific religious beliefs are grounds to be labled mentally ill.
Like the examples I posted.
I was very specific in my post. I did NOT say religious belief in general.
Who are you to say which
July 19, 2007 - 13:00 ET by Conservative VoiceWho are you to say which beliefs are grounds for the label Leon? Are you God? Or immortal and lived at the time of Noah? How are you the decider on what is fantasy and what is reality? You can't because its your belief that Noah is a story. So by the same logic you displayed, I can declare you insane. Give me your gun.
And being a Christian who believes in Noah, that is grounds to not be allowed to own a gun?
Here is the problem Leon, ever watch Beautiful Mind? He was schizo, yet learned to control himself. Its a bad idea to forbid a constitutional right based on someone's opinion that you are insane. Especially if the doctor is you, who looks at what Church one goes to.
Leon what should we believe?
July 19, 2007 - 12:49 ET by vrwc13Lion:I attend a PresbyterianJune 19, 2007 - 09:28 ET — Leon
Lion:
I attend a Presbyterian church and we read the regular old Bible.
Apparently your church teaches about a god-in-a-box. And your Bible has disclaimers on every page.
My faith does not box God in. God is God and He can do anything He pleases, whether you, Leon, believe it, like it or not.
Your human secularism seems to go so deep that you might be the one in question as far as mental stability.
Screech is about as comical
July 19, 2007 - 12:53 ET by MightyMouthScreech is about as comical and hypocritical as they come. One day he's a Christian, next he's an athiest. What to believe? One things for sure, he is consistantly annoying.
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Leon apparently is neither a
July 19, 2007 - 13:12 ET by vrwc13Leon apparently is neither a Christain nor an athiest. He is "luke warm water" that Jesus spits out of His mouth.
vr, just like Leon is wrong
July 19, 2007 - 13:17 ET by Conservative Voicevr, just like Leon is wrong in thinking he is judge on who is insane and who isn't, you are not God, and not his judge on how Christian he is.
CV, there you go again. I
July 19, 2007 - 14:00 ET by vrwc13CV, there you go again. I did not "judge" Leon. I said apparently. You my friend are quick to judge. My Bible tells me to discern those who claim to be among the brethren. But not to judge those outside, because they are already judged. Maybe a little more Bible-reading and a little less other-book reading might help.
"He is "luke warm water"
July 19, 2007 - 14:10 ET by Conservative Voice"He is "luke warm water" that Jesus spits out of His mouth. " sounds pretty judgmental vr.
And "apparently" is not the same as "maybe". Definition "Plainly; clearly; manifestly; evidently." Hence apparently you did judge Leon.
And personally vr I don't care how you interpret "your" bible, because I have far more respect for Leon than I do you.
Also note that the luke warm comment Jesus made was toward people like the Pharisees not to the Gentiles...in other words, the words pertain more to you than to Leon.
And I will also note that I
July 19, 2007 - 14:15 ET by Conservative VoiceAnd I will also note that I am judging you, so no need to claim I am being hypocrit, [edited] because I said you aren't God and thereby are not in the position to judge how Christian someone is.
"...not in the position to
July 19, 2007 - 16:32 ET by vrwc13"...not in the position to judge how Christian someone is."
Sorry, I do not subscribe to the "works" doctrine, thus there is no "how Christian someone is". You are either a Christian or you are not. Not my call, but His. Jesus says there are wolves, goats, and sheep. You can only be one of them and and not partially one. Your works/fruit here on Earth will be rewarded appropriately in Heaven. Your ticket to Heaven has already be paid in full, you only need to do one thing to claim it - believe in Him as the only God(one God, three in essence) who ever was, is, and will be.
"Not my call, but his" thank
July 19, 2007 - 17:01 ET by Conservative Voice"Not my call, but his" thank you for making my argument. That is what I said from the start, you asserting he wasn't a Christian ( and implying that you by default are ). You aren't God, thereby can not declare who is Christian and who isn't.
" Those of you who think
July 19, 2007 - 16:17 ET by ckc1227"
Those of you who think this to be a reasonable compromise need to remember one thing: There is no shortage of liberal doctors out there that consider Christians (not to mention conservatives in general) to be mentally ill."
And there is a doctor in Kansas who believes wanting to go to the rodeo is grounds for getting a late term abortion.