Discuss, debate, pontificate. Name and town not needed if you wish to opine.
Here's a topic to think about.
Why do the media pay little if any attention to the role that the OPEC oil cartel plays in high oil prices, largely laying the blame at the feet of publicly-traded corporations that the media deride as "Big Oil"?














Comments Policy
And why do people pay NO at
May 22, 2007 - 10:36 ET by sarcasmoAnd why do people pay NO attention to the fact that the Saudis stole US assets every bit as much as the Cubans did? Have the Saudis actually bought THAT many people off? And if any Saud family royals are watching, I can probably be shut-up about your brutal dictatorship for a price, so please, make me an offer!!
JMR
I know...the Saudi government
May 22, 2007 - 10:43 ET by TruthMongerI know...the Saudi government is just like Saddam, Chavez, Castro, Kimjongil, etc with all of their constant anti-American rhetoric...!
You're trying to be sarcast
May 22, 2007 - 10:47 ET by sarcasmoYou're trying to be sarcastic, I know, but unless you can somehow deny their dictatorship's 100%-financing of literally 4 decades of Wahabbi anti-US hate, all you're doing is being unintentionally-funny instead... We need to come up with some foreign policy besides a binary "make war" or "give subsidies" 'choice' if we're to have a future, IMO.
JMR
How can I deny...? How about
May 22, 2007 - 11:03 ET by TruthMongerHow can I deny...? How about what is your evidence...?
...any idea what Osama thinks of the Saudi Gov (house of Saud)...?
http://www.thewahhabimyth.com/
Osama and I agree about the
May 22, 2007 - 11:28 ET by sarcasmoOsama and I agree about the dictatorship -- it should be replaced, preferably with brutality and swiftly. We no-doubt disagree about what should follow. Do you actually deny that the Saudis have spent decades spreading Wahabbi hate planetwide?? What is your evidence that they didn't???
JMR
...are you saying it's time f
May 22, 2007 - 12:06 ET by TruthMonger...are you saying it's time for "regime change?" Some shock and awe? Why do you want to rush us into war? Is it for oil or something?!!!
You think the state department doesn't know about this Wahabbi stuff? What about the "brutal dictatorship" of China which we also do massive business with? Should we brutally and swiftly invade them too?
I thought diplomacy and dialogue was supposed to be the solution here. SA is an ultra-conservative Islamic kingdom. Cultural change happens at a snail's pace there...
China is a different, but a
May 22, 2007 - 12:22 ET by sarcasmoChina is a different, but also brutal, dictatorship, but I hold out more hope for them because I've seen less hate from them. I like business as a way to change most countries -- Vietnam seems to be working better than Cuba. Apparently, diplomacy and dialog are the preferred solution except when they're not...Some of us would prefer to see Saudi culture change very rapidly for a few weeks, along with Chinese culture, but WITHOUT yet-another expensive war. BTW, I was not impressed with the Pro-Wahabbi link you provided above, it is rather dense reading, but the parts I skimmed sounded a lot like excuse-making for hate-spreading to me. Frankly, I like my "religionofpeace" link better.
JMR
...and I think our business l
May 22, 2007 - 12:38 ET by TruthMonger...and I think our business links with SA have helped us push for reform there just like in China - but it's painfully S-L-O-W and we just have to accept it...
I'm not totally disregarding your assertion but it's effect is largely in an incidental and collateral sort of way. IMO my link is largely accurate regarding your attempt to link Wahabbi's to terror. Wahabbi's are anti-US because of our DEPRAVITY - it's not political - and they don't use terror - they support the conservative Islamic Saudi government and culture...who are overwhelmingly peaceful and decent people...
The less depraved we get (ie more Amish) the less they will despise us...that means infinitely more to them than the oil business we give them...
From what I've seen, money
May 22, 2007 - 13:07 ET by sarcasmoFrom what I've seen, money from oil means more to the Saudis than anything else. And I think they can call us "depraved" all they want, but take a look at what they all seem to desire in their own personal lives, and it always comes back to what I call the 2 most powerful weapons against Islamofascism the USA has: Pamela Anderson's boobs (and by that, I mean hot blondes in general, not just Pam). I don't know of any Americans who plan to get less-depraved, I'd rather just see less dictators on this planet like the Saudi dictatorship expecting me to behave in ways that please them instead of me. (Again, anyone supporting the Saudis here should feel free to try to logically differentiate between "monarchy" & "dictatorship" as long as they can do it coherently -- ie in a way a guy like me can follow -- since my post below asking for the same enlightenment was once-again-cloaked!)
JMR
I guess it's only "fundi
May 22, 2007 - 13:19 ET by TruthMongerI guess it's only "fundies" like me who are trying to get less depraved...
The more the libs legalize depravity here the more they are going to hate us...
Difference between a monarchy and a dictatorship:
Not much...some are better than others...
Some of us don't define dep
May 22, 2007 - 13:33 ET by sarcasmoSome of us don't define depravity the same as either the Saudi dictatorship (sorry, your distinction contained 0.0 difference, and I think you know it...) or "fundies" define it. And I can only hope the Saudi dictatorship hates me as much as I hate them, but I doubt it. What I love about NB, or at least one of the things, is that unlike the regular media, I get to correct attempts at NewSpeak repeatedly, using bold. It's fun, and slowly but surely it changes minds.
JMR
Rock on - just remember that
May 22, 2007 - 13:38 ET by TruthMongerRock on - just remember that the Wahabbi's you complain about dislike us thanks to big-boob depravity-lovers like you...funny isn't it...
Forget the boobs, it actually started half a century ago with swing dancing and booze...
P.S I'm moving to a very nice dictatorship someday called the Kindgom of Heaven...
I do happen to like boobs
May 22, 2007 - 13:49 ET by sarcasmoI do happen to like boobs, but I don't consider boobs "depravity," and what I was talking about was the Islamofascists' Ted Haggard style hypocrisy in (for example) frequenting FL's strip clubs pre-9/11. I find it somewhat ironic that people like you want to try to blame people like me for the Saudi-dictatorship-financed spread of Islamofascist hate. And the Saudis, from everything I've ever heard, are also Ted Haggard style hypocrites when it comes to alcohol use in the dictatorship. For me, depravity is defined differently than for you. For all I know, you may actually advocate things I find a hell of a lot more "depraved" than Pam's enhanced knockers, such as the state (any state, including the Saudi dictatorship) punishing peaceful people for victimless "crimes."
JMR
I'm not TRYING to blame you -
May 22, 2007 - 13:51 ET by TruthMongerI'm not TRYING to blame you - the Wahabbi's are blaming you - I'm just repeating the message...
And how does this blame dif
May 22, 2007 - 13:56 ET by sarcasmoAnd how does this blame differ in any way from "blame America first"?? I don't care what the Islamofascists (or the dictatorship that financially supports them) think about my lifestyle. In fact, that's a big part of what I love about America. Drinking booze & dancing are -- thank God -- here to stay.
JMR
Well then just get used to st
May 22, 2007 - 14:02 ET by TruthMongerWell then just get used to strong Wahhabi disapproval - and yes thanks to oil they've got a whole lot of money to spend on schools to teach their little Muslims all about decadant American culture...and how we need Islam to save our souls...
I've been used to their hat
May 22, 2007 - 14:06 ET by sarcasmoI've been used to their hate, not just disapproval, for the past 3-4 decades, man. What I asked was how does this differ in any way from "blame America first." I don't see any answer, which probably means, like the alleged "distinction" between the Saudi dictatorship and a "monarchy," there isn't one. I'm off for now.
JMR
...it blames America first if
May 22, 2007 - 14:08 ET by TruthMonger...it blames America first if that's what you prefer...
I blame the sinful nature of humankind...
It's not what I prefer, but
May 22, 2007 - 15:32 ET by sarcasmoIt's not what I prefer, but it is what I believe. Saudis have no moral right whatsoever to tell me how to live or play or believe. I may call their dictatorship a dictatorship & want someone to overthrow it, but I do not tell them how to live or believe (I kinda doubt they play very much). Blaming some Americans' "decadent" lifestyles for Islamofascist attacks makes less sense to me than blaming US policy under various US Presidents, which has repeatedly been labelled "blame America first" around here, by those who at the same time (and in practically the same breath) argue that Clinton was largely responsible for 9/11. It's an amazing leap of 'logic,' to put it mildly...
JMR
Sarc, they're not telling us
May 22, 2007 - 16:44 ET by TruthMongerSarc, they're not telling us how to live - they just DON'T LIKE THE WAY WE LIVE!
If we adhered more closely to a devout Christian culture the Wahhabi's would not dislike us so vehemently...
Well, I don't like the way
May 22, 2007 - 17:10 ET by sarcasmoWell, I don't like the way THEY live, either. IMO they should be tolerant of others and should immediately overthrow their corrupt, immoral dictatorship, despite US government support for that dictatorship historically. If they and we adhered more closely to the libertarian philosophy of America's founders, we'd all have richer lives in a number of ways, not just financially, and Islam would probably be a lot less dangerous to the world.
As they exist now, the corrupt Saudi dictatorship practically defines "entangling alliance." I think a person like Washington or Jefferson if magically revived today would be outraged, even once someone explained the importance of oil in modern times to them, that we'd support such a repressive regime. And the Saudi dictators spent a LOT of their oil money funding, it seems, whichever band of Afghan rebels hated America the most that day back during the Afghanistan-war, in keeping with the teachings of the hate-filled schools they still fund.
I've said it over and over, but it bears repeating because I'm right. ;) The "God Hates Fags" segment of Islam has, with the help of an oil dictatorship we support, practically taken-over an entire major world religion in one generation, and other factions within that religion have much to fear, and know it. My old friend Dean (who probably lives in very tight security these days, if my guess is right) is an exception. He's among a TINY, TINY, TINY minority within his religion (analogous in size to the "God Hates Fags" sect of Christianity, come to think of it) and part of the psychological reason for that IMO is explained in this 1998 press release, which bears reposting here.
JMR
Monarchy
May 22, 2007 - 10:52 ET by Mr. BishopNo matter how many times you try and say it sarcasmo, the Saudi government is a monarchy... not a dictatorship.
"Stop global warming! Asphyxiate a liberal!" - Show us how far you're willing to go to stop "global warming"
Dude... lighten up..
I can't seem to tell the di
May 22, 2007 - 12:28 ET by sarcasmoI can't seem to tell the difference between the Saudi dictatorship and the various dictatorships everyone here actually admits are dictatorships, perhaps you can enlighten me??
JMR
Interesting premise, Sarc. Pl
May 22, 2007 - 10:58 ET by Roger the ShrubberInteresting premise, Sarc. Please post a link to your source.
?? I didn't think that the
May 22, 2007 - 11:08 ET by sarcasmo?? I didn't think that the idea that the Saudi dictatorship "nationalized" (governmentese for "stole") oil resource concessions once they were developed by American companies was a controversial premise! Did you actually not-know that about this theft, Rog??
JMR
Nope. Thanks for the links. G
May 23, 2007 - 19:27 ET by Roger the ShrubberNope. Thanks for the links. Good reading.
Meanwhile, palooney is making
May 22, 2007 - 11:28 ET by FastEdMeanwhile, palooney is making googly eyes in Syria - so, can they be added to the bad guys? Iran too, maybe?
I'm confused, FastEd.
May 22, 2007 - 14:39 ET by sarcasmoI'm confused, FastEd. I was under the impression that Syria & Iran were already on the list of badguys, and that I was trying to add the Saudi dictatorship (God, do I ever love bolding that word when there are people around who'll actually try to deny it!) to the same list the other 2 dictatorships are already-on -- although to me Iran, ironically, seems the least-like a dictatorship of the 3. At least in Iran, "The Leader" gets to have a different last name every once in a while, even as he's under the sway of the mysterious religious nutcases in control for all actual policy, from what I'm told. Anyway, I have no argument with the idea that Syria & Iran are led by bad people, my post above didn't mention them at all because my point was instead about the Saudi dictatorship we support for some reason, despite their behavioral history.
JMR
Oh, and here's one you won't see on TV
May 22, 2007 - 14:44 ET by sarcasmoOh, and here's one you won't see on TV news, from the "dictatorship gratitude" department. Courtesy of yet-another dictatorship "friend" the taxpayers support for mysterious reasons...And amusingly, this ties in to my repeated inflation-rants, folks. Guess what's coming (coughinflationcough) and guess who tends to know about that kind of thing first because it's their job? Might it be other countries' central bankers, by any chance?
JMR
Drat. Cloaked again...
May 22, 2007 - 15:35 ET by sarcasmoDrat. Cloaked again...
JMR
Livestock being fed junk food
May 22, 2007 - 10:38 ET by RJAn eyebrow-raising column in the WSJ says that, due to ethanol causing the price of corn to rise, livestock of all types are being fed junk food. Pretzels, trail mix, licorice, cheese curls candy bars, french fries, and frosted wheat cereal, are just a few of the food products producers are turning to. ;^>
Damn those environmentalists.
May 22, 2007 - 19:19 ET by dahliatraversDamn those environmentalists. They've turned our livestock into junk food junkies.
Here's an interesting comment
May 22, 2007 - 10:40 ET by Michael ChapmanHere's an interesting commentary on OPEC by Jerry Taylor of the Cato Institute:
OPEC Is the Problemby Jerry Taylor
Is the OPEC cartel a good thing for consumers? Its raison d'etre, after all, is to radically restrain production in order to jack up oil prices. Given the political and economic angst sparked by the recent spike in gasoline prices, you'd think that the answer would be rather obvious. You would, however, be wrong. Rather than come up with a plan to bust up the cartel, most Washington politicos and policy mavens are content to leave the cartel alone and, in fact, defend OPEC against those who want to tear it down.
OPEC apologists contend that the cartel assists in stabilizing oil prices. The record, however, suggests otherwise.
In the period between World War II and the formation of OPEC, the inflation-adjusted price of oil fluctuated little. Oil prices indeed jumped during the Middle East crises of 1956 and 1967, but they fell back quickly. In fact, the inflation-adjusted price of oil -- indexed by GDP -- fell by about two-thirds from 1945 to 1970.
From 1970-1980, however, the real price of oil rose by about 1,300 percent. Between 1980 and 1986, it dropped by about two-thirds. It was fairly steady between 1986-1997, fell farther in 1997-1998, and then nearly quadrupled after February 1999. This is stability?
Cartel prices fluctuate more because they are less certain than normal market prices, inviting speculation. In short, market agents are forced not only to consider global supply and demand but also to factor in OPEC's behavior and its members' fidelity to their promises. Hence, the market is less predictable and prices are accordingly more volatile.
The price spike in late 1973 is instructive. There were only trivial changes in world oil supply yet prices rocketed, a phenomenon that can only be explained by buyers' panic.
Others believe that OPEC is doing us a favor by producing oil in dribs and drabs because underproduction now postpones the end of the oil age. The widely advertised, long predicted end of the oil age, however, is like the horizon -- forever receding as we move closer to it.
How would we know if oil was indeed becoming scarcer? The only certain metric would be finding costs. If oil stocks were indeed dwindling, it would be more expensive to find and develop each additional barrel of oil. Up until about 15 years ago, however, finding and developing costs were trending downwards, not upwards.
Since then, most of the data on the matter have simply disappeared. As an alternative, economists Morry Adelman and Campbell Watkins tabulated the sales value of proved reserves in the United States, information that serves as a window on the value of oil reserves anywhere in which oil finders can go freely and invest. From 1982-2002, however, the price of existing reserves did not increase, demonstrating that the market does not believe oil in the ground is an appreciating asset.
Someday, of course, oil stocks will indeed begin to dwindle. When that might be, however, is unknowable because new technologies continue to emerge that make finding and producing oil cheaper than ever before. Regardless, we don't need OPEC to manage the future. When depletion becomes a real problem, oil prices will rise of their own accord and economies will adjust because prices today reflect expectations about prices tomorrow.
OPEC's defenders also contend that high oil prices bring political stability to the Middle East and that low oil prices bring political instability. Perhaps. But why is a stable Saudi, Iranian, or Libyan regime in our interest? While we could perhaps imagine worse regimes, we could certainly imagine better. But more to the point, the argument that these undemocratic, oppressive, ideologically bizarre, and terrorist-friendly regimes are propped-up by high oil prices is scarcely a strong argument for applauding the cartel's machinations. In fact, President Bush's program to encourage human rights, democracy, and peace in the Middle East will not succeed as long as these regimes remain in power in their current incarnations.
Let's be clear about what's at stake. If OPEC disappeared tomorrow, oil prices would drop to somewhere around $8 a barrel and gasoline prices would almost certainly be south of $1 a gallon. A price collapse of that magnitude would do more for consumer welfare and the overall health of the American economy than almost anything that's been put on the table by President Bush or his Democratic Party rivals. Accordingly, the OPEC cartel should be resisted, not embraced, and policy should aim at undermining it, not propping it up.
# # #
Jerry Taylor is da man.At a B
May 22, 2007 - 10:57 ET by Ken ShepherdJerry Taylor is da man.
At a Business & Media Institute panel discussion last year, he really ripped into some dumb legislative ideas being forwarded at the time by an otherwise generally conservative Georgia Republican congressman.
He's a great advocate of free markets and an able detractor of Big Government.
And Jerry Taylor represents
May 22, 2007 - 13:29 ET by sarcasmoAnd Jerry Taylor represents the libertarian/fiscal-conservative side of Republicanism that's been ignored (just like Democrats ignore blacks) by their party in favor of Ted Haggard's "Elmer Gantry lobby" for too damn long, IMO.
JMR
Why is Mr. Bush in bed with Ted?
May 22, 2007 - 10:43 ET by Dave RIn my humble estimation, this great country now faces a greater threat here at home from illegal immigration than from any radical follower of Islam, and this threat is being brought to us by the very people we elect to represent us: The President of the United States, George W. Bush, as well as our very own senators and congressmen,
Yesterday, The Heritage Foundation released the results of a study entitled: "The Fiscal Cost of Low-Skill Immigrants to the U.S. taxpayer." I don’t expect there will be much coverage of this in the MSM, but for those of you who are truly concerned about the issue of illegal immigration and what it will eventually end up costing us all, this is a must read.
You can read the entire report here.
If you’re in a hurry, you can read the executive summary here.
Friends, as things currently stand, a sizable number of our senators, including both from my home state of Georgia, appear to be preparing to vote for an immigration “reform” bill that, the more I learn about it, bodes ill not just for the long term future of this great nation, but the near and even short term as well.
This cannot be allowed to happen. If it does, then we have truly lost control of our own government.
What are you a racist? We sho
May 22, 2007 - 11:05 ET by SouthJersey1953What are you a racist? We should gladly bankrupt the Social Security System, pay 40% more in taxes, etc. because these poor immiGRUNTS are only trying to better their life. It should not matter to us if our standard of living decreases because of it. <sarc off>
Actually, we don't need new immigration laws. We just need to ENFORCE the ones we have......AND BUILD THE FENCE!!!
No RINOs in '08 - Vote for a true conservative!
The solution is simple enough
May 22, 2007 - 11:09 ET by Sergeant ROCKThe solution is simple enough, but elected officials won't do it: ENFORCE FINES AND JAIL TIME FOR THOSE THAT EMPLOY ILLEGALS!
Sarge,I think you just nail
May 22, 2007 - 11:32 ET by Dave RSarge,
I think you just nailed the whole problem. If we would not hire these people, not rent to them, not give them access to any public funds other than emergency services, not loan them money, not allow them access to our schools and threw a few employers in the slammer for hiring them, they would go back to Mexico on their own.
EXACTLY!
May 22, 2007 - 11:37 ET by Sergeant ROCKEXACTLY! I would also add the morons setting up these 'sanctuaries' in their cities or towns.
Sarge,If Mr. Gonzales were
May 22, 2007 - 11:44 ET by Dave RSarge,
If Mr. Gonzales were any kind of an AG, he would have gone after that idiot mayor out in San Fransicko and made an example of him for every one to see.
Unfortunately, the man is an empty suit.
You are correct. Hell, if the
May 22, 2007 - 11:49 ET by Sergeant ROCKYou are correct. Hell, if they won't enforce immigration laws, why enforce drug laws?
You mean they're not wastin
May 22, 2007 - 12:08 ET by sarcasmoYou mean they're not wasting my taxes enforcing dimwitted drug laws, in direct violation of the 10th amendment, and to the deafening silence of the vast majority of (but not all) conservatives?? Wow... Coulda fooled me!!
JMR
Sarge and you Dave are right
May 22, 2007 - 12:05 ET by misterbillSarge and you Dave are right--enforcement of existing laws will resolve the problem. I will post another post just to bring up a forum post that addresses a lot of what you are saying.
why oh why ?
May 24, 2007 - 11:43 ET by tumblerDave R sucks up to Sarge;
Deny those people. Curse those people. Back it up with bullets and bombs; because after all; those people are different; not as good as Americans.
That's the current party line among fringe Right-wingers today. White supremacy masked as Americanism. --Thank God they haven't got the clout to endanger anybody. Talk is cheap. Being an American isn't about cursing poor people out and demonizing them. LOVE THY NEIGHBOR; the words of Our Holy Redeemer. Words to live by, every American should remember.
see here sarge,
May 22, 2007 - 13:55 ET by misterbillsee here sarge---don't you know enforcing the laws may cause some businessmen friends, (some of whom assisted in drawing the compromise), of our politicians to get fined or go to jail????
Where’s the coward that would not dare to fight for such a land? And the parent that wouldn't be honored by the sacrifice?
Sir Walter Scott & Noel Sheppard
I know.. I know.. we must put
May 23, 2007 - 10:30 ET by Sergeant ROCKI know.. I know.. we must put 'capitalism' above all else.
Incredible website.. btw.
Judging from what is leakin
May 22, 2007 - 11:10 ET by lnthompJudging from what is leaking out about this hundreds-of-pages immigration "reform" bill, I think it could be boiled down to just a few words that T. Kennedy, J. McCain, and G.W. Bush really seem to agree on:
"All persons on Earth are hereby granted citizenship of the United States of America. Applications for government assistance will be approved as quickly as we can balloon up the size of the government agencies with more union workers. Courts are put on notice that the definition of "person" should be expanded at the earliest opportunity to include Chimpanzees, Apes, Dolphins, Dogs, Cats, Fish, Rats, Mice, Gerbils, Flies, Mosquitoes, Birds, Trees, Flowers, etc. Courts will be given the option of including Rocks in the definition of "person" if they see fit."
Lee T.
U.S. Navy (ret.) / Vancouver, Washington
The history of the race, and each individual's experience, are thick with evidence that a truth is not hard to kill and that a lie told well is immortal.-- Mark Twain
Let's stop calling illegal im
May 22, 2007 - 11:17 ET by FastEdLet's stop calling illegal immigrans, immigrants - They don't want to immigrate - if that was their goal, they would do what is right. But, since we have no other term, I suggest we call these hard working folks (numbering around 12 million, according to the demolibs) who are not imigrating nor assimilating -
Ugly Immigrants. Like their earlier namesakes, americans, they are rude, arrogant, want rights that they don't have (legally or otherwise), refuse to assimilate and learn the culture of the country they visit.
This is TRUE! Of course, but
May 22, 2007 - 11:19 ET by Sergeant ROCKThis is TRUE! Of course, the media refuses to acknowledge this FACT.
When did the goal of new arri
May 22, 2007 - 13:13 ET by j. frank wilsonWhen did the goal of new arrivals to this county become "assimilation?" For most of our history first generation Americans were homogeneous. They brought the best of their former lives to this country and thrived in the proverbial "Melting Pot." The flavor of the stew changed with each generation.
Sometimes, they also brought the worst, of course - slavery, smallpox, measles, etc. But that's not my point. When in our history did "America" become so well-established that the duty of new citizens solely became fitting in?
Seeing how you missed it, you
May 22, 2007 - 13:26 ET by FastEdSeeing how you missed it, you make my point - why are there so many 2nd and even 3rd generation who don't speak english? If you were to speak with the generation that came here between 1890 and say 1945, they made it a point that their children learned the language of their newly adopted land - my old neighborhood had the lyrical strains of polish, german, italian, russian, spanish, greek, mixed with the lyrics of the irish and scotts. And they became citizens, didn't stay in the shadows and became friends and associates with their fellow immigrants.
"...why are there so man
May 22, 2007 - 13:49 ET by j. frank wilson"...why are there so many 2nd and even 3rd generation [residents] who don't speak english [sic]?" Where? I see 2nd generation children translating for their parents. I see first generation children learning English in schools every day.
But that's not the point. When did the goal of new arrivals become assimilation?
I'll use your method of ass
May 22, 2007 - 13:57 ET by FastEdI'll use your method of assuption - that as a teacher your view is skewed to the left - as to the goal of assimilation - where did I mentionthat it was a goal. Reading into someones' statements is assuming your own prejudices.
Remember that the refusal to assimilate is a choice, not a goal, and with that choice are the consequences of lower pay, less health care and a brighter future for the children and future generations.
And why do apologists always negate or forget about the lawlessness of being "illegal". Is it the term that is bothersome? or the concept? What makes anyone think that by breaking one law, people who are given a pass will NOT break another, sometime in the future.
You mean like all those folks
May 22, 2007 - 14:17 ET by j. frank wilsonYou mean like all those folks who always drive under the speed limit?
Where did you mention that assimilation was the goal? In your two previous posts.
FYI - I'm not a teacher. Wrong again. Never said I was.
And where are all those 2nd and 3rd generation folks who don't bother to learn English? Certainly not my wife (2nd G). Or her parents (1st G). Or our kids (3 G).
Apples and oranges - point ou
May 22, 2007 - 14:35 ET by FastEdApples and oranges - point out, please, where I say it was a goal to assimilate, and specifically the word goal.
" I see first generation children learning English in schools every day." The assumption is teacher - otherwise, you like hanging out at schools?
Can't help to think that you're not living in the inner city somewhere, but in Cul de Sac, I've Made It Ville.
"I see first generation children learning English -"
May 22, 2007 - 14:19 ET by misterbill"I see first generation children learning English in schools every day."
It is logical to assume then that you are a teacher, a school administrator, bus driver or some functionary of the school. Otherwise, you are intruding upon the teachers and the students or are an exceptionally slow learner and are still a student.I addressed your question regarding assimilation below. Further, as a citiizen of any country. I would expect anyone who wanted to move to my country to learn our language and obey our rules. I absolutely would do so were I to emigrate to another country.
Assimilation: Sociology. the merging of cultural traits from previously distinct cultural groups, not involving biological amalgamation.
Please note the word "merging " in the text. In the process of assimilation , parts of the culture of the emigre' become part of the ethos of therir new land. To exaggerate for the point--if a cannibal came here, would you expect him to continue to kill and eat people?
I am done with you for today. I seek electrical shock treatments after reading your posts.
Where’s the coward that would not dare to fight for such a land? And the parent that wouldn't be honored by the sacrifice?
Sir Walter Scott & Noel Sheppard
"Logical to assume."
May 22, 2007 - 14:24 ET by j. frank wilson"Logical to assume." If the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, their foundation is assumptions.
Why is it unreasonable for a parent to be at school? Perhaps in your world that is an intrusion. Not in mine. What's wrong with being a student? I would consider being a life-long student a very reasonable position. Not full-time, perhaps, but that's another story.
I would hope that each generation of new arrivals make our country a better place. We don't have all the answers. We can learn from people from other nations - if we have the native wit to pay attention.
PS: Please keep your promise and be gone...
Sir, you argue in an incredibly
May 22, 2007 - 15:07 ET by misterbillSir, you argue in an incredibly, juvenile and illogical manner.
Tata!
Doc Spock - you promised to b
May 22, 2007 - 15:14 ET by j. frank wilsonDoc Spock - you promised to be gone...
PS: No need for a comma between "incredibly" and "juvenile."
Ha! Spelling/Grammar Nazi!
May 22, 2007 - 15:18 ET by MightyMouthHa! Spelling/Grammar Nazi! You lose frank!
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Your use of "Nazi"
May 22, 2007 - 15:26 ET by j. frank wilsonYour use of "Nazi" is in remarkably poor taste. I prefer to reserve that name for the real thing.
I pointed out the unnecessary comma because I was being called "juvenile." Guess such a subtle point was lost on you...no surprise there.
Not a Seinfeld fan huh? Oh
May 22, 2007 - 15:31 ET by MightyMouthNot a Seinfeld fan huh? Oh well... No more jokes for YOU!!
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
It was an accident---
May 22, 2007 - 15:32 ET by misterbillIt was an accident---it was a comma left over from the major error of addressing you as "sir". It will not happen again, Sparky.
Assimilation should be the go
May 22, 2007 - 17:32 ET by RESTLESS 1Assimilation should be the goal of every immigrant. By ignoring our laws, these illegals, by their actions, are showing that they have no intent to ever assimilate. A nation is nothing without, as Michael Savage would say, "Borders, Language, and Culture".
The "Melting Pot" only works if we combine our cultures into one. This can't be done by self segregation of different peoples. We must have some common ground if we are to survive as a notion. Learning English and assimilating is the only way to go about standing on this common ground
Assimilation into what? The
May 22, 2007 - 17:45 ET by j. frank wilsonAssimilation into what? The concept of the Melting Pot is that each ingredient adds flavor and spice and variety. Best practices, if you will.
Following the law isn't the same thing as assimilation.
But when you start quoting the Silly Savage the conversation is over. Although I do believe America will survive as a notion - and a nation, at that.
PS: What did you think of Weiner's novel? Enough man on man love for you?
There you go again--
May 22, 2007 - 17:52 ET by misterbill"Assimilation into what? The concept of the Melting Pot is that each ingredient adds flavor and spice and variety. Best practices, if you will."
I am not being nasty- I truly do not understand what you are saying. It (to me) is obvious that one would be assimilated in to the American way of life, the ethos, the spirit of the people they moved in with for life improvement, unification, support , giving back to those who give you a home. I understand and agree with the second sentence. Again, the third sentence, What???
I don't like most of what he
May 22, 2007 - 17:58 ET by RESTLESS 1I don't like most of what he says either. The point is that as a NATION, we have to have some commonality. What most people are objecting to is the blatant disregard for our immigration laws, our culture (America DOES have a culture you know), and our language. I shouldn't be castigated in certain communities, or by "clever" comedians, because I don't speak Spanish. It is a duty, and I will call it a duty, to become a contributing member of the society in which you live. If I moved to another country, it would be expected of Me. Why should We not expect that of others coming here?
hay--
May 22, 2007 - 18:11 ET by misterbillhay-- I'm whichoo restless.
I certainly would make ever effort to be assimilated if I moved to another country. The first thing I would do is try to learn the language. The second--if I could get friendly advice--give me a list of NONOs. I would not want to offend my hosts. The third would be to read, find out any customs, rituals, etc. my new neighbors may indulge.
It is natural to gravitate to those of your country and customs , but if you continue on that path, you may never be assimilated.
OK - I'll bite - what precise
May 22, 2007 - 18:11 ET by j. frank wilsonOK - I'll bite - what precisely is "American culture?"
By the way - it's fine with me if you don't speak Spanish. While it would certainly be an advantage to do so here in Northern California, I don't...
I guess the easy answer would
May 22, 2007 - 18:49 ET by RESTLESS 1I guess the easy answer would be "baseball, hotdogs, and apple pie", but it is more than that. Is is the things that make us unique in the world. It would begin with the founding of this great nation. The constitution, and the freedoms it gives us.
It is the hard working nature of our citizens. It is the spirit that anything can be done.
It is the American Dream, that our children should have a better life than we did.
It is no doubt contributed to by cultures brought here by immigrants past. It is the fact that chili is called Texas caviar. We are a nation of individuals bonded by a love for this nation, while still keeping our autonomy.
American culture is something that can be felt easily if you are willing to acknowlege it. If you do not feel this, then I feel sorry for You.
Right on, FastEd. I've heard
May 22, 2007 - 14:34 ET by ThisnThatRight on, FastEd. I've heard the same thing over and over again throughout my life. People tell me differnent versions of how they immediately tried to "become American", and a big part of that was to learn the language. I heard several stories about coming to America and the father simply wouldn't let anyone talk unless it was in English -- as a way of forcing a rapid learning of the language.
That doesn't mean that families would abandon everthing about their "old country" culture. But the language was important from day one.
Why is it so different now? Well, I've actually walked out of stores when I was about to pay for my purchase with a credit card, and I couldn't unless I first chose: English or Spanish? I left all my products on the counter and simply walked out. And that is the reason so many of these new arrivals don't learn English -- they are pampered and too many of them think they have "special rights". Bullsh**T.
j. frank,Ever heard of La R
May 22, 2007 - 13:45 ET by Dave Rj. frank,
Ever heard of La Raza?
The difference here is that, in the past, immigration into this country was controlled enough so that new immigrants were able to assimilate into our culture without overwhelming it.
This "reform" bill will allow each illegal here to bring in five more in a very short period of time.
Do the math. 12 mil. x 5 = 60 mil. (If the government is telling the truth about the number already here. I believe the government is lying about the true numbers.
What if it is 20 mil. Then we are talking 100 mil. immigrants in a very short period introduced into a country of 300 mil. That's 1/3 of the present population, j. frank.
If we have 30 mil. illegals (and many believe this # is much closer to reality than the government numbers), we are talking a potential flood of 150 mil. people-most of which really aren't interested in becoming Americans.
Scared yet, j. frank?
What does La Raza have to do
May 22, 2007 - 13:50 ET by j. frank wilsonWhat does La Raza have to do with anything? Are they seeking to enforce the original constitution of the State of California - that all laws be published in English and Spanish?
When did immigration legislation begin? For a significant part of our history there were no restrictions. Then there were restrictions based on health. And jobs. Then to keep out the Chinese folks. Then...?
j. frank,Read this.
May 22, 2007 - 14:07 ET by Dave Rj. frank,
Read this.
What does La Raza have to do with anything?
May 22, 2007 - 15:34 ET by misterbillDear Lord, please help us in this time of trial.
Good call, misterbill, as a
May 22, 2007 - 15:50 ET by Dave RGood call, misterbill, as apparently our own government doesn't seem remotely interested in stemming the criminal invasion from our southern neighbors. In fact, they appear to be doing what they can to encourage it!
Damn, I can't wait to get inside a voting booth and start doing my small part to help our recalcitrant politicos find early retirement, hopefully before they manage to sell us all down the proverbial river.
Dave...That would be the Rio
May 22, 2007 - 15:53 ET by Clear thinkerDave...
That would be the Rio Grande.
Help a wounded soldier here...
http://newsbusters.org/node/12877
Ct,LOL-Yeah, that proverbial
May 23, 2007 - 05:13 ET by Dave RCt,
LOL-Yeah, that proverbial river.
Dave R. Think about this.
May 22, 2007 - 15:54 ET by j. frank wilsonDave R. Think about this. Prior to the establishment of the Farmworkers' Union, most California agricultural workers were legal immigrants. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chavez actively resisted illegals coming here to work.
After the UFW Union was up and running, and workers were being paid a more reasonable wage, had a higher liklihood of actually collecting the wages due, conditions improved somewhat (toilets, living conditions, etc.), the short hoe banned - the floodgates were opened for illegal immigration.
I certainly realize mis-guided US policies in Central America had something to do with this. But can it be pure coincidence that the UFW established itself and suddenly there was a huge wave of illegal immigration?
j. frank,I realize there is n
May 23, 2007 - 05:46 ET by Dave Rj. frank,
I realize there is now (and always has been) a great deal of political pressure that is being brought to bear by companies that are seeking to improve productivity while lowering labor costs, and this pressure is being felt by the republicrats (demopublicans?) as a whole.
The political class, who apparently deem themselves answerable to no one, is naturally looking to solidify its future power base by attracting a whole new constituency while at the same time pleasing their benefactors in the business community. The problem is, in this particular case, the politicians have have elected to do so at the expense of the rule of law.
If the politicos are willing to ignore established immigration laws in order to strentghen their own power, then we are headed for serious calamity in the near future as a nation. If it is deemed okay to ignore one particular law that some do not like, then what of other laws?
This republic is a nation of laws, without which we would be nothing more than a losely o