What's up with the Quran


Okay you all. I have spent the past few days reading large chunks of the Quran and browsing websites from all different sources to try and understand it. I can't read the entire Quran in a couple days if I plan on remembering any of it because it's pretty long. But I have read right much.

First off, before I begin, I should openly say that I find the Quran a bit creepy and haven't enjoyed any parts I've read. So take all my commentary as such.

FYI Here's a link to an English translation (separated into Surahs) if you dare.


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violence in Islam

Another central issue of Truthie’s Case For Islam © is that the Quran really doesn’t call for violence, and whatever violence is found there can be explained away. So let’s look at what the Quran has to say.

*disclaimer: for the sake of clarity we will not include Hadith here because they are not counted as Allah’s own instruction.

As mentioned here before, it’s an undeniable fact that the Quran traffics in violence; some as accounts of battles and some as advice for believers. In fact, 8% of all verses in the Quran mention violence or cruelty, which is a much bigger proportion than any other religious book, including the OT. Surahs 4,5,6,8,9, 24 and 47 offer obvious instructions for fighting, just to name a few. The wrath is often directed at Christians and Jews (people of the book) though warnings for infidels in general occur just as well.

Since the calls for violence are obviously there, Muslim apologists opt to do their best to explain them away. My research has found three basic themes they tend to fall back on. We will thus pick apart each one…

 

Defense A: Quranic violence was for specific tribes or cities and not for the modern world.

 

Status: Misleading

 

Unlike the OT’s Joshua or King David, Mohammad could rarely be bothered to identify his enemies when mentioning a battle in the Quran (7:4 or 17:58). Many of his instructions simply tell readers to fight “those people” or to kill them “wherever they are” (9:5 and 9:29 and 2:191 are good examples).  Also, nowhere in the Quran does Allah leave a memo for future generations to become pacifists. Since there are modern clerics teaching men how to beat their wives in line with Mohammad’s instructions, it’s a hard sell that anything in the Quran has a statute of limitations.

 

Defense B: Mohammad only endorsed violence in self defense or retaliation.

 

Status: Murky

 

It is true that Mohammad talked about persecution in several places (2:190), so of all Muslims’ points this one is the most plausible. However, closer inspection reveals a tiny problem…nowhere does Mohammad set the standard of how persecution is defined. Mohammad implies in some parts that Muslims have an Allah-given right to enforce Sharia (33:1) and if infidels resort to violent protests they are persecuting Islam. Similarly, a Muslim could claim that he is being “bullied” into jury duty in a secular court or closing his business on Christmas Day. If a secular government fires a teacher for praying in school, or if a mosque is forcibly closed for being too radical, this kind of persecution could qualify as starting a fight. Futhermore, even when talk of persecution is removed, there are many passages where Mohammad seems to encourage aggressive pursuit of nonbelievers (3:151 or 4:89 or 5:14 or 9:73).

 

Defense C: Jihad is akin to Paul’s description of spiritual warfare.

 

Status: Far fetched

 

This defense simply makes no sense at all. Nowhere in the Quran does Mohammad talk about spiritual warfare or say anything in the same zip code as “our battle is not flesh and blood.” In fact, Mohammad goes in detail to command Muslims to smite pagans on their necks (8:12) or to drag their bodies through boiling water (40:70-72). The only way to believe this defense is to take a completely mystical approach that everything in the Quran is a metaphor, even though Mohammad never implied such. In fact Mohammad insisted that the Quran was easy to understand (54) and written in a clear, precise language (26). Thus this defense seems like a modern scramble to connect jihad with spiritual warfare even against Mohammad’s obvious assertions.

  

Dunno. Maybe my skeptical brain has been altered by my hatred for Allah and I’m not understanding this the way a Muslim would.

wow - great

wow - great work, Candance - you have hit upon some very good stuff here...

Islam is obviously based on the Abrahamic religion - with reverent references to Moses and Jesus, etc...

but the books are chock full of glaring contradictions - unlike so-called Biblical "contradictions" that simply arise from a lack of understanding - these truly do not reconcile...

therefore Islam appears to be a man-made religion - a knock-off of the Gospel - just like the RCC or LDS (Mormons), etc...

so if that is indeed the case - which I believe it is - then the question becomes:

What kind of faiths would we like them to be? As members of humanity it's entirely up to us...

I partner with others in a conservative inter-faith manner who would like them to be religions of peace...

wait a second truthie

Yes yes, I'm breaking my ban on replying to you. Sue me. ;-)

You just said in the Saudi Arabia thread that Muslims love Jesus.

Do they?

Jesus told us that those who love Him will

  • keep His commandments
  • feed His sheep
  • love His Father

Muslims do none of those.

As a Christian, you do define love by the standard Christ gave us, or by the standard men set for themselves?

An abusive husband can claim to love his wife, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

I don't mean this as an indictment that all Muslims are violent. Or terrorist. Or they all belong to Al Qaeda. This is an issue of doctrine.

...the Muslims I talk to

...the Muslims I talk to think they love Jesus - not the way that Christians do - Muslims just revere Him as a prophet - does that help?

I tend to agree with TM. I

I tend to agree with TM. I worked with several muslims, they hold Jesus in high regard, but the do not see him as the son of God. Therefore, their love for him is a different type of love.

The Avatar

well well

I've gotten all the way to Surah 2 before I found a contradiction. That's right. Second book. Glaring contradiction.

Let's observe...

Surah 2:62 says that Jews and Christians need not worry because they belong to Allah and he will reward their righteousness.

But a few pages over in 2:195 Allah changes his mind. Now Allah is annoyed at Christians for equating Jesus (a man) with Allah (a god) and warns them they'll be punished for blasphemy.

 

Apparently one of these verses falls into that legendary "covert ambiguity" we keep hearing so much about.

Shhhh, not so loud

Shhhh,

not so loud please. ;-)

Truthmangler might hear, and then we'll have another 6 months of him telling us how "peaceful" and "loving" Islam is.

 

 

"Don't forget to vote this fall. Not for McCain, not ever, but there might be a Conservative Rep or Senator that Needs Your Vote" --Free Stinker

well sorry Free

He tells us to learn about the Quran before we bash it. So far the Quran isn't doing so well.

It would be a humorous read if it weren't so creepy.

Maybe Truthie can explain to us how there are a billion Muslims in the world and only 5% of them believe both verses at once.

Candance


Maybe Truthie can explain to us how there are a billion Muslims in the world and only 5% of them believe both verses at once.

I'd like to hear that one too!

 

"Don't forget to vote this fall. Not for McCain, not ever, but there might be a Conservative Rep or Senator that Needs Your Vote" --Free Stinker

Surah 2 - the gift that keeps on giving

In verse 259 we read a story of how Allah caused Abraham to die and then brought him back to life a hundred years later just to prove it could be done.

This Surah is a rambling, incoherent attempt to recount the Old Testament. Mohammad mentions Noah, Abraham, David and Goliath, the Ark of the Covenant, and the golden calf...but none of it is in chronological order. The stories are randomly sprinkled in between advice about marriage, financial honesty, and complaining about those darn Christians.

You ain't seen nothing yet

You haven't even seen Sura 23:2 or 24:1 yet.   

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

take a cue from Candance -

take a cue from Candance - get some courage - and read:)