hey dudes, so what happened to our fine discussions about so-called "Muslim-terrorism" here in the woodshed...
http://newsbusters.org/forums/woodshed/truthmonger-or-truthmangler-20851
and Sua's anti-Muslim hate list has magically disappeared as well?
http://newsbusters.org/forums/topic-discussion/religion-peace-17019
behold his mighty hand - amen:)
----------------------------
...so finally (hopefully) in closing here regarding religiously bigoted NB posts - Cortillian requested two answers - one - a name and link to one NB individual claiming Islam was a religion of terrorism...
...so before I post this name and link, just wondering, Cortillian - what do I get for this complete and definitive answer to your question - an actual posted admission from you - finally - that NB posters are indeed accusing all Muslims of being terrorists - or another frackin weasel out? I'm betting the latter...
American Taxpayer
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew-sheffield/2007/12/12/lawrence-odonnell-too-afraid-criticize-islam#comment-498836
...but beyond that - even calling just one scumbag terrorist "Muslim" does in fact label the whole faith as terrorist - for it must be a tenet of the faith that all Muslims believe, support, AND PRACTICE - otherwise, if all do not, then it is not part of the faith whatsoever...it's either one or the other - and since all Muslim's do not support and practice terrorism - then terrorism is not taught by Islam and it is totally impossible for one to be a "Muslim terrorist...."
...for instance - all Christians believe in, support, and PRACTICE forgiveness - therefore it can be well and truly said that Christianity is a "religion of forgiveness" - for all Christians embrace and practice it...
Now referring to this post:
http://newsbusters.org/forums/topic-discussion/religion-peace-17019#comment-478541
excerp: "when you say we are calling these terrorists "Muslim", this is pure ignorance on your part since you surely haven't been paying attention. They call themselves that, they are pushing for jihad, sharia law and so forth. Call me crazy but I think those are of the Muslim faith. They wage these atrocities in the name of Islam, Allah and you're not sure they are Muslims?"
this is what I mean - many Christians could band together (and indeed have from time to time) and commit terrorism "in the name of Jesus" - so by this logic that would make the group "Christian terrorists" - which is simply not possible - just like so-called "Islamic terorists" are just not possible - once you commit an atrocity you cease true devotion to the faith and your status as a member - THIS IS AN IRREFUTABLE FACT - and for simply trying to point this out I am desperately labeled an "appeaser" and an "apologist" - the "douchemonger" - truly pathetic denial over and over again...
...rounding things out here, despite having to be associated with the constant religious bigotry here, it's been pretty hilarious how you guys love to constantly bitch about Muslims "not denouncing" terror enough, yet when a link to those who do is always presented, you just insist it's lying propaganda - gee, that's encouraging - no wonder why more Muslims don't go way out of their way to come here and post as much "terror-denouncing" as you demand - just to try and finally satisfy you bigots - if this is the treatment they are going to get...
IMO what it obviously comes down to is you don't really seem to want Muslims to denounce terrorism at all - perhaps so you can rationalize your continued bigotry against Islam...
And how truly sad for you that I, a conservative fundamentalist Christian - who in my heart vehemently but respectfully opposes the central religious tenets of Islam, has to keep trying to enlighten you on all this...
------------------------------
Question two was about Mohammed being a pedophile...
I've asked this question many times here about the so-called "age of consent" being 18 or 21 - where do these numbers come from...? It's not Biblical - and Kentucky is still 14 I believe...?
...so Mohammed married this Ayesha or whatever her name was - the age is in dispute somewhere between 9 and 14 - and we will never know for sure now - but let's just say it was 9 for arguments sake...
9-year olds and younger married all over the world 2000 years ago - some still probably do somewhere today. So if the "age of consent" comfort level for you is 10 or above - then go ahead and call the guy a ped - I really don't care other than it's highly sensative language and again it could seriously hamper vital WOT partnerships with over a billion Muslims - so if you must bring it up - I suggest you do it tactfully and carefully - as for me I will never be able to conclude one way or the other myself, and really see no pressing need to bring it up in my travels any time soon...
in short it sounds like the case you are trying to make against Mohammed is the same ridiculous case this guy is trying to make for "God as a paedophile"
http://www.answering-christianity.com/age3.htm
You have to floor now - please try to use it more wisely and respectfully from now on...
















Editor at Large
Comments Policy
Whew!
May 3, 2008 - 02:03 ET by Sua Sponte 75It's so difficult to find the right place to start on all the places you are wrong.
"and Sua's anti-Muslim hate list"
Step up to the plate and show it. As usual, you're the type who one, hasn't the slightest clue about Islam (constantly proving throughout your posts), two, get smacked around on a daily basis when the facts hit you.
"pretty hilarious how you guys love to constantly bitch about Muslims "not denouncing" terror enough, yet when a link to those who do is always presented"
Where? Where are all these links of them denoucing terrorism? If you have all of this then why aren't you countering anything? Probably because there are so few and far between, then the denoucement is rice paper thin.
"who in my heart vehemently but respectfully opposes the central religious tenets of Islam, has to keep trying to enlighten you on all this"
Now that's rich.
It is nothing but evident that you are absolutely clueless about Islam. Reflected and magnified a thousand times in your posts. If you want to appease and stick up for someone, you at least ought to have a grasp on the history and doctrine. But alas, that will not be the case as you would be esentially shooting yourself in the foot.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
Step up to the plate and
May 7, 2008 - 12:52 ET by TruthMongerStep up to the plate and show it.
Show what? - all of your links have been magically deleted - click on the link bro - they are gone
http://newsbusters.org/forums/topic-discussion/religion-peace-17019
Where are all these links of them denoucing terrorism?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=muslims+denounce+terrorism&spell=1
Probably because there are so few and far between, then the denoucement is rice paper thin.
qualify much? nice set up - feel free to use it as yet another weasel out...
It is nothing but evident that you are absolutely clueless about Islam...
care to re-phrase now? i thought not...
First of all....
May 9, 2008 - 01:53 ET by Sua Sponte 75Not sure where you get this "bro" thing from. Personally I find it comical. Me weasel out, you whine that the thread is not there, yet you have had all the time in the world to read it and counter it. What do we get in return....crickets. Still, still you are unable to come up with anything worthwhile other than a google search? Yes you are the champion on the leading edge you are.
Now to begin your lesson.....
Even though many Muslims earnestly believe that their religion prohibits the killing of innocent people by acts of terrorism, the truth is certainly more complicated. This is why the Jihadis and their detractors are both able to point fingers at the other, while confidently insisting that they are the true Muslims.
In fact, the definition of an “innocent person” is far more ambiguous in Islam than Muslim apologists will lead others to believe. So, also, is the definition of terrorism.
First, consider that anyone who rejects Muhammad is not considered to be innocent under Islamic law. The most protected and respected of all non-Muslims are the dhimma, the “people of the book.” These would specifically be Jews and Christians who agree to Islamic rule and pay the jizya (tribute to Muslims). Yet, the word “dhimmi” comes from the Arabic root meaning “guilt” or "blame." ["...the dhimmi parent and sister words mean both 'to blame' as well as safeguards that can be extended to protect the blameworthy" Amitav Ghosh, In an Antique Land]
So, if even the dhimma have a measure of guilt attached to their status (by virtue of having rejected Allah’s full truth), then how can non-Muslims who oppose Islamic rule or refuse to pay the jizya be considered “innocent?”
Within the Islamic community itself there is a category of Muslims who are also said to bear guilt – greater even than the average non-believer. These are the hypocrites, or “Munafiqin,” whom Muhammad referred to in the most derogatory terms. A hypocrite is considered to be a Muslim in name only. They are distinguished either by an unwillingness to wage holy war or by an intention to corrupt the community of believers.
When Muslims kill Muslims in the name of Allah (which occurs quite frequently), they usually do so believing that their victims are Munafiqin or kafir (unbelievers). This is actually a part of Islamic Law known as takfir, in which Muslims are declared apostates and then executed. (A true Muslim would go to paradise anyway, in which case he or she could hardly be expected to nurse a grudge amidst the orgy of sex and wine).
In addition to the murky definition of innocence, there is also the problem of distinguishing terrorism from holy war. Islamic terrorists never refer to themselves as terrorists, but always as holy warriors (Mujahideen, Shahid, or Fedayeen). They consider their acts to be a form of Jihad.
Holy war is something that Muhammad commanded in the Qur’an and Hadith. In Sura 9:29, he establishes the principle that unbelievers should be fought until they either convert to Islam or accept a state of humiliation under Islamic subjugation. This is confirmed in the Hadith by both Sahih Muslim and Bukhari.
In many places, the prophet of Islam says that Jihad is the ideal path for a Muslim, and that believers should “fight in the way of Allah.” There are dozens of open-ended passages in the Qur’an that exhort killing and fighting – far more than ones of peace and tolerance. It is somewhat naïve to think that their inclusion in this "eternal discourse between God and Man" was of historical value only and not intended to be relevant to present-day believers, particularly when there is little to nothing within the text that distinguishes them in such fashion.
Combine the Qur’anic exhortation to holy war with the ambiguity of innocence, and a monumental problem develops that cannot be covered over by mere semantics. Not only is there a deep tolerance for violence in Islam, but also a sharp disagreement and lack of clarity over the conditions that justify this violence... and just whom the targets may be.
Even many Muslims who claim to be against terrorism still support the “insurgency” in Iraq, for example, and often entertain the allegation that there is a broader “war against Islam.” Although the Americans in Iraq are trying to protect innocent life and help the country rebuild, Muslims around the world and in the West believe that it is legitimate for Sunnis to try and kill them.
Enjoying the sanction of holy war, the Mujahid reasons that it is permissible to attack fellow Iraqis – the ones helping the Americans… even if they are part of a democratically-elected Iraqi government. These non-combatants and combatants alike are believed to be the “Munafiqin” assisting the enemy “Crusaders.”
Although we use Iraq as an example here, this is the same rationale that is ultimately behind all Islamic terror, from the Philippines to Thailand. Wherever the religion of Islam is a minority, there are always radicals who believe that violence is justified in bringing it to dominance - just as Muhammad taught by example in places like Mecca and the land of al-Hirath.
And what of the so-called “innocents” who suffer from the bombings and shootings? Even in Muhammad’s time they were unavoidable. The much-touted hadith in which Muhammad forbade the killing of women also indicates that there were such casualties in his conflicts.
If there is any doubt that he believed that the forbidden is sometimes necessary, it should be put to rest by an incident in which Muhammad's men warned him that a planned night raid against an enemy camp would mean that women and children would be killed. He merely replied “they are of them,” meaning the men.
This is the slippery slope that is opened by the sanction of holy war. What starts out as the perception of a noble cause of self-defense against a supposed threat gradually devolves into a "let Allah sort them out" campaign through a series of logical steps that are ultimately justified by the sublime goal of Islamic rule.
Islam is not intended to co-exist as an equal with other religions. It is to be the dominant religion, with Sharia as the supreme law. Islamic rule is to be extended to the ends of the earth, and resistance is to be dealt with by any means necessary.
Apologists in the West often shrug off the Qur'an's many verses of violence by saying that they are only relevant in a “time of war.”
To this, Islamic terrorists would agree. They are at war.
Of course you will then try to bring to the table that all religions have done bad things and I will go ahead and reply to that before you state it.
Bringing other religions down to the level of Islam is one of the most popular strategies of Muslim apologists when confronted with the spectacle of Islamic violence. Remember Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber? Why pick on Islam if other religions have the same problems?
Regardless of what his birth certificate may or may not have said, Timothy McVeigh was not a religious man. At no time did he credit his deeds to religion, quote Bible verses, or claim that he killed for God.
The so-called “members of other faiths” alluded to by Muslims are nearly always just nominal members who have no active involvement. They are neither inspired by, nor do they credit religion as Muslim terrorists do, and this is what makes it a very different matter.
Islam is associated with Islamic terrorism because that is the association that the terrorists themselves choose to make.
Muslims who compare crime committed by people who happen to be nominal members of other religions to religious terror committed explicitly in the name of Islam are comparing apples to oranges.
Yes, some of the abortion clinic bombers were religious (as Muslims enjoy pointing out), but consider the scope of the problem. There were five deadly attacks over a 35 year period in the U.S. Seven people died. This is an average of one death every five years.
By contrast, Islamic terrorists staged nearly ten thousand deadly attacks in just the six years following September 11th, 2001. If one goes back to 1971, when Muslim armies in Bangladesh began the mass slaughter of Hindus, through the years of Jihad in the Sudan, Kashmir and Algeria, and the present-day Sunni-Shia violence in Iraq, the number of innocents killed in the name of Islam probably exceeds five million over this same period.
In the last six years, there have been perhaps a dozen or so religiously-inspired killings by people of all other faiths combined. No other religion produces the killing sprees that Islam does nearly every day of the year. Neither do they have verses in their holy texts that arguably support it. Nor do they have large groups across the globe dedicated to the mass murder of people who worship a different god, as the broader community of believers struggles with ambivalence and a radical clergy that supports the terror.
Muslims may like to pretend that other religions are just as subject to "misinterpretation" as is their “perfect” one, but the reality speaks of something far worse.
So bring whatever you may have, based on previous performance not much, but bring it to the table and let's see what you have other than juvenille responses. And I won't be re-phrasing that you are clueless about Islam.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
nice Sua
May 9, 2008 - 11:45 ET by candanceI enjoyed reading your post.
Since I already know what Truthie will say next (having been down this path with him before) allow me to give you the short version.
-Truthie will mention the Crusades in his eager desire to bring Christianity down to the level of Al Qaeda.
-We will explain how the Crusades were launched in self defense to stop Sharia law in southern Europe and to stop genocide in modern Israel. In other words, the Muslims in the early times were exactly like Muslims now with hatred of the west and desire to obliterate Christianity. The war we are fighting with Al Qaeda right now is not much different from the Crusades of old.
-Truthie will then bring up the Spanish Inquistion.
-We will inform him yet again that the Spanish government enacted the atrocities amid mass rioting and resentment among the people. Modern peace-loving Muslims can't be bothered to protest their displeasure unless it involves cartoons.
-Truthie will then point to Joshua's seige of Jericho in the OT as proof that the Bible calls for violence against nonbelievers as well.
-We will explain how 1) God directed that as necessary in that particular situation and 2) there is no call for violence in the Bible that can be carried over into future generations, unlike the orders to kill all over the Quran.
-Truthie will then insist that half the Muslim population is not Muslim because of their violent ways and that the west is in no danger of Sharia law.
-We will then point him to the fact that nearly half of Muslims in England want Sharia introduced and that large portions of them consistently defend suicide bombers.
Thank You Candance...
May 9, 2008 - 16:31 ET by Sua Sponte 75Yes I'm sure he'll approach the "crusades" angle, of which I will reply that the first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.
By the time the Crusades finally began, Muslim armies had conquered two-thirds of the Christian world.
Europe had been harassed by Muslims since the first few years following Muhammad’s death. As early as 652, Muhammad’s followers launched raids on the island of Sicily, waging a full-scale occupation 200 years later that lasted almost a century and was punctuated by massacres, such as that at the town of Castrogiovanni, in which 8,000 Christians were put to death. In 1084, ten years before the first crusade, Muslims staged another devastating Sicilian raid, burning churches in Reggio, enslaving monks and raping an abbey of nuns before carrying them into captivity. In theory, the Crusades were provoked by the harassment of Christian pilgrims from Europe to the Holy Land, in which many were kidnapped, molested, forcibly converted to Islam or even killed. (Compare this to Islam’s justification for slaughter on the basis of Muslims being denied access to the Meccan pilgrimage in Muhammad’s time).
The Crusaders only invaded lands that were Christian. They never attacked Saudi Arabia or sacked Mecca as the Muslims had done (and continued doing) to Italy and Constantinople.
The period of Crusader “occupation” (of its own former land) was stretched over less than two centuries. The Muslim occupation is in its 1,372nd year. The period of Crusader “aggression” compresses to about 20 years of actual military campaign, much of which was spent on organization and travel. (They were from 1098-1099, 1146-1148, 1188-1192, 1201-1204, 1218-1221, 1228-1229, and 1248-1250).
By comparison, the Muslim Jihad against the island of Sicily alone lasted 75 grinding years. Unlike Jihad, the Crusades were never justified on the basis of New Testament teachings. This is why they are an anomaly, the brief interruption of fourteen centuries of relentless Jihad against Christianity that began long before the Crusades and continued well after they were over.
The greatest crime of the Crusaders was the sacking of Jerusalem, in which 30,000 people were said to have been massacred. This number is dwarfed by the number of Jihad victims, from India to Constantinople and Narbonne, but Muslims have never apologized for their crimes and never will.
Of course he will only quip back with some non-sensical remark and lay claim that history just began a few years ago......
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
too easy...
May 12, 2008 - 17:29 ET by TruthMongerI'll just cut to the chase and do the sin angle - of which we all suffer equally in the eyes of God...
next please...
Clownmanship at it's finest...
May 13, 2008 - 00:44 ET by Sua Sponte 75This, THIS is your response? For crying out loud, you can't even come up with one, ONE good argument or counter to the individuals you claim to support and why we are all off the beaten path....sad....sad and pathetic to say the least.
You then send me a PM:
Read message
From: TruthMonger
To: Sua Sponte 75
Subject: get a clue
Date: May 12, 2008 - 11:39
http://newsbusters.o...
Just what exactly does this have to do with the multitudes of smacking you've recieved? Yet another fine example of your hard core dhimitude. Dangerously close of crossing the line between clown and moron.
I'll just cut to the chase and do the clown angle - that which you seem to suffer more from....
Next...
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
It's like watching a trapped wolf chewing his own leg off. . .
May 3, 2008 - 03:54 ET by tracheostomyTM: http://www.answering-christianity.com/age3.htm
Of all the accusations I ever thought I felt obligated to defend from a self-described "fundie". . .this takes the cake. This is nothing more than one convoluted "everyone else is doing it" defense. As if two wrongs made a right (or canceled it out).
Note: At the outset, I'm willing to give Muslims the same benefit of the doubt as I'm giving Moses below, you hear? As I have told others, I've only heard rumors of this "Muslim thighing" business and haven't been 100% convinced of it. . .yet.
I'm just here to give the book of Numbers some covering fire; that's it.
The link above from answering-christianity.com is doing nothing more than exploiting the typical 21st Century American's own natural ignorance of Biblical archaeology (and they're doing it rather brilliantly, seeing as how quickly TM got suckered by it).
I especially like how Osama Abdallah endlessly repeats the same OT passage over and over down the page, as if it really adds to the list of accusations.
And the reasoning behind it is so confusing, that they even appear to throw their very own accusations back into question (just do a word search for "katanah" and read the context), especially when "Johnny Bravo's" commentary is added. Koo-koo.
And I'm sorry, but Abdallah's formatting here is just plain garbage. But enough side-commentary *rolling up sleeves* I was just stalling. This is one dirty job. From my POV, it's like having to change one giant online diaper.
- All the "pedophile accusation" boils down to is 2 passages in Numbers and some non-canonical Rabbinic accounts. As a Christian, I don't have to regard the latter. Yet regardless of this, the following links will reveal the Rabbi's ignorance on the subject as well.
- From here on out, any reference to "ANE" stands for "Ancient Near East," okay? They deal with the pedo accusations and the killings as separate actions.
- First link: http://www.christian...
Comments: This link also rather unflinchingly references the Talmudic statements above.
I don't expect anyone else to actually read the whole thing, but I had to do it at least once to verify (and to anticipate any bone-headed comments of those who don't).
- Second link: http://www.apologeti...
Comments: This one's shorter in case you don't want to go into all the concise detail of the first. If you participate in this thread at all, you have no real excuse not to read at least the second link.
- And just one more thing. I think TM's links are a clear example of how totally warped our sin-soaked culture has become in assuming that the priority of sex is for recreation in lieu of re-creation. Almost like having a baby with it has become an afterthought.
TM: in short it sounds like the case you are trying to make against
Mohammed is the same ridiculous case this guy is trying to make for
"God as a paedophile"
Conclusion: Far from it. From what I've heard about Islam there's no comparison. But thanks for trolling the link. . ."Fundie."
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
yes blah blah blah - duly
May 7, 2008 - 12:59 ET by TruthMongeryes blah blah blah - duly noted, bro...
as always the reader will decide - just as God intended all along:)!
trach: 1 ~ truthmangler: 0
May 8, 2008 - 23:11 ET by Free Stinker. . . and the readers say . . .
trach: 1
truthmangler: 0
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
right
May 12, 2008 - 17:37 ET by TruthMongeranonymous outside readers update:
TM 200
trach 1
and please don't bother with your lame retort on the scoring, ok?
you already have my pity, there's really no need to rub your own nose in it
ya know Trake
May 8, 2008 - 23:21 ET by candanceWhat would be really refreshing is for Truthie to come up with an original argument and/or defense instead of borrowing them all from Muslim and anti-Christian websites.
And it would also be really
May 8, 2008 - 23:25 ET by Free StinkerAnd it would also be really shocking. ;-)
good ones guys -
May 12, 2008 - 17:33 ET by TruthMongergood ones guys - wow
quite underwhelming - as usual:)
what would really be refreshing is for you to stay on the subject instead of trying to invent dubious sources for my incredibly brilliant and completely original ideas, and of course the self scoring was a dud from the get go...
really, give me a challenge please