How long until TM trys to squash your list as being hurtful?
I for one, have trouble understanding what TM is trying to do. If we are to partner with Islam, are we expected to support jihad? Not gonna happen! He has tried many times to convince us that he is in contact with influential Muslims and our comments on NB are being read by them. I will beleive this only when he invites some of these contacts to come here and give their side of the story.
BTW... my wife loves your pic. She had no idea that Hamsters were allowed to post on NB ;-)
This Liberal crap of sucking up to our sworn enemies is at best, disgusting.
We've got our own "Neville Chamberlains" inserting themselves among us as Trojan Horses, and Truthie's no exception.
Pat Robertson also falls into the same basket. Here we have a Minister who built his ministry largely on a belief in miracles and an anti-abortion theme. So what does he do? Same thing Abraham did. Hopped in the sack with Hagar to fulfill God's promise. Metaphorically speaking Rudy is Hagar, of course. No problem with Robertson supporting Rudy when Rudy and Hillary are all that's left. I'm hoping Robertson's viewers are more trusting in God than he is
Now we've got the President siding with the AGW crowd in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary. Why? I've got no clue, but he's selling us out to higher and newer taxes after he leaves office.
Since when is Bush a liberal?. He's been sucking up to the Saudis for years. not to mention that wonderful dictator in Pakistan, Busharaf. Why does Bush and his criminal gang suck up to those who want to kill us?
Musharraf and the U.S. have one thing in common: our enemies.
The Saudis likewise want to whack terrorists that destabilize their regime. Since these are often the same guys who want to kill Americans, we shut up and let them do their thing.
Realpolitik is a wonderful thing. I suggest reading The Prince some time.
In the meantime, you might not want to discuss things you are not qualified to discuss (like foreign policy, for starters).
Responses to this link usually result in "terrorist-sympathizer" or "useful idiot" accusations, or "this is not enough" or "these are not prominent people" etc, etc, etc - whatever excuses possible - and they go on and on and on matter what I post to the contrary...
The best way to get more Muslims to pressure "Muslim" terrorists is to proacttively partner with them - they need our help - and it is the Christian thing to help - I'm doing it locally (link below) with my church - we are partnering with the Mall Area Religious Council and help organize interfaith events at the Mall of America:
There should be an interfaith group near you as well...
Most Muslims are not "jihadists" but rather simple, decent, hard-working, peaceful people - and most share my conservative Christian values against abortion, gay marriage, porn, etc...
And for this I'm sure you'll call me an appeasing, terrorist-loving, jihadist sympathizer, etc:)...
Partner with Islam and the NiceBelievers respect police:)
you know it's getting to be alot like posting on deliverance around here sometimes now:)
BTW looks like I lost - defamation will probably not be banned on NB - tacitly approved then:
From: Matthew Sheffield
To: TruthMonger
Subject: Re: Please change your signature line
Date: November 8, 2007 - 11:28
You haven't exactly been a good example of not defaming others.
> will do - is a policy against defamation in the works at all?
>
> > Something that does not imply endorsement of your views from NB.
> >
> > > to what?
> > >
> > > >Please change your signature line
yes, I came to understand that it might be kinda hard for "certain special individuals" here to realize that it was not actually an official NB endorsement (being confined to my tagline along with the lack of any formal announcement anywhere on the NB site)...
i initially saw it as an informal club of like-minded NB posters heroically concerned about the site's growing image as "the conservative dkos" and also the Muslim defamation hampering the WOT...
But obviously some of NB's visitors are not exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer:).
And the mastheads don't care much about religious defamation as it turns out - surprised me, but so be it...
yes, I came to understand that it might be kinda hard for "certain special individuals" here to realize that it was not actually an official NB endorsement
But obviously some of NB's visitors are not exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer:).
What is that then?
Texas has a population of nearly 21 million people, all of whom are ashamed to be from the same state as the Dixie Chicks. (IMAO.us)
You're right, it's not enough. Albeit individuals may be stepping forward, however it's the leadership that provides the guideance and standards of conduct for the masses. If you don't have prominent leadership stepping forward on a grand scale, then what example do you think the people following them see? Lead by example, always a good path. You may have these individuals standing up, but where are they standing up? Standing up is fine, following through after the fact is another. If you bother to read what's posted you will see that this is not just about getting along. Why? Well mostly due to the fact this is about the religious convergence of the world, willing or unwilling. Also noted are some of the examples, and just a small amount I might add, of the issue dealing with these acts based on faith. It's also about not assimilating into mainstream society, in fact it's preached not to and to force the communities to succumb, also noted above. Inter faith events are all well and good but this is not changing anything. On a side note, when you make excuses for what's been done, and what's going on, well there is no way around it, you're an apologist. The bottom line is that these extremists want the total destruction of democratic societies and Sharia law installed and the only thing that comes from a "cease fire" and these talks, is time given to them to re-group, re-arm, and establish another course of action. Once individuals start standing up and following through with stopping these actions, maybe I'll slightly interested in what they're doing. At some point in time they have to start taking it upon themselves to stop the Islamic aggression that is. As stated by John Stuart Mill; "A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
I just got back from visiting Egypt, Israel, and Jordan. I will have to
concur. Most of the Muslims there love Americans, want peace with Israel, and
basically decent folks. They are hard working and passionate people. Several
years ago there was a massacre of tourists in Egypt...and the Muslims in the
area hunted down the terrorists and killed them.
The Jews I met also were very pro-American, and would love peace with their
Muslim neighbors. There are a number of Muslims who live in Israel just fine.
Even the people of Palestine, many Arabs in Bethlehem are Christian. But even
those who aren't many of them are just trying to put food on the tables and are
quite decent. Fact is the area is more peaceful than some cities here in the
states. The media hypes the bad stuff and doesn't give a very accurate picture.
The problem really is the few terrorists who make life difficult for both sides. And terrorists use the youth much like Hitler did, and much like our street gangs do, because the youth is easily controlled.
TM is right, we don't need a war with Muslims, rather we need to find ways to make a united front against terrorists and with dictator thug governments out to destroy everything good ( like Iran ). We are no better than the terrorists if we fuel the flames of hate. Our hearts and minds should be focused on peace...not getting even...and you can never accomplish peace if you are fighting bigotry with bigotry.
I aplaud your sentiments, however, we are at war wether anyone chooses to see that or not. It's not a war against the people by any means, but the agressive nature in which they are pushing the "Islamization" of other countries. I think you are failing to see the grand scale of what exactly is going on, especially with such a raw percentage of incidents posted above. We are better than the terroists and if you feel that we "fuel the flames of hate", well, you just aren't getting it. It's wonderful to have all these "come together" meetings that you and TM speak of, but tell me where are these individuals other than in the U.S.? Where are these moderates and citizens in the countries in which there are the main problems? Why are they not stepping forward? I see you should choose towards the end to throw in bigotry, yet another sign that you just don't get it. The united front has been made, quit commiting terrorist acts, that's pretty simple. Quit murdering people, that's pretty simple. Quit killing people based on their religion and your lust to install yours, that's pretty simple. A good sign of faith on the side of the Muslim people would be to step forward in these countries and start eliminating the ones who bring shame upon them as well as governments who harbor or do nothing about these persons. Being all warm and fuzzy feelings sounds good and might look good on paper, but when push comes to shove, won't hold an ounce of water.....
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
German Americans enlisted in droves during WWII and Japanese Americans enlisted even though many had relatives held in FDR's Concentration Camps.
The deafening silence of the American Muslims watching from our side of the field is matched only by those flattered Aryans who bought into Hitler's bargain.
The MSM was pro-US military back then - and promoted it
Now they are anti-US military to say the least, and tell Muslims that Bush wants to use the US mil to destroy Islam only to make oil money with conquered Muslim countries - big difference
We had to quickly rid ourselves of the idiot ideas of Charles Darwin's cousin while we were at it. Eugenics was a very close movement to that which Hitler had going.
Thanks for the help, CV. The Mormon bashing has unfortunately switched to Muslim bashing around here in your absence...
We are at war - never said we weren't - with terrorists - not Muslims - these terrorists are not Muslims any more than the KKK or the Nazi's were Christian - it takes more than just calling yourself a Muslim or Christian, or being raised that way - it is a way of life, a set of actions and behaviors, not just beliefs - Satan is twisting our beliefs into bigotry, hatred, and war - and only you can stop yourself from following him - talk about not seeing the grand scale of what's going on...
If you don't believe you are fueling the flames of hate you are the one who is not getting it.
Most Muslims do not live in the ME - only about 15% of the world's total Muslim population - terrorism continues to be denounced and actively resisted and fought by major Muslim leaders all over the world - not just in the US - again my google link will show you that. They are stepping forward. You just refuse to believe it - and furthermore you also refuse to help as I have suggested...
I also strongly suggested you do not legitimize these so-called "Muslim" terrorists by calling them Muslim or posting their twisted propaganda from perverted interpretations of the Koran, Hadith, etc...
It's as absurd as posting David Koresh's teachings and "Bible quotes" to prove that Christianity is a religion of terror and that all Christians want to kill us. NB would hit the roof if some MSM "news" outfit tried to push that...
We partnered with Germans in the US during WW's 1 and 2 to defeat Germany - they became US troops - and now we have Muslim troops in the US military fighting the WOT - we can partner with them...
You could show a sign of good faith by posting more about that instead of your favorite terrorist quotes...
We partnered with Germans in the US during WW's 1 and 2 to defeat
Germany - they became US troops - and now we have Muslim troops in the
US military fighting the WOT - we can partner with them...
What happened to the Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor got attacked?
If conservatives are RIGHT, then liberals must be WRONG. Thompson/Rice
We partnered with Germans in the US during WW's 1 and 2 to defeat Germany - they became US troops - and now we have Muslim troops in the US military fighting the WOT - we can partner with them...
You have it backwards: we did not partner with them, they partnered with us. That is why they became US troops.
I would like to see how many Muslim troops there are in our armed forces.
The ball is in Islam's court. They need to fixed the mess the "non muslims" have made.
Saudi Arabia enforces a strict Islamic doctrine that forbids unrelated men and women from associating with each other, bans women from driving and forces them to cover head-to-toe in public.
Yeah, I can see this "partnership" working just peachy =).
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
is in your posts. You are an apologist plain and simple and obviously make every attempt at using smoke and mirrors, it's more than evident. Just how is defending yourself fueling the flames? Please explain, as asked of you many times, just how does what your speaking of relate to the atrocities being committed? I know you will be unable to, or reference something obscure with no bearing. I don't refuse to believe individuals are stepping forward, and it's obvious you completely ignored my previous post calling you to the carpet on that, and still you continue the apologist role and mouthpiece. I'm not sure what world you are living in and just what exactly pushes a person to completely ignore the events over the past ten years, but it is sad. You are being disengenuous when you say we are calling these terrorists "Muslim", this is pure ignorance on your part since you surely haven't been paying attention. They call themselves that, they are pushing for jihad, sharia law and so forth. Call me crazy but I think those are of the Muslim faith. They wage these atrocities in the name of Islam, Allah and you're not sure they are Muslims? What would really be great is that if you had enough intestinal fortitude to stand up to them the same way you try to stand up to those fighting this aggression. Although the magic 8 ball seems to say otherwise.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
First of all, I am all for the war on terror. Secondly do not confuse
actions of people in power with the approval of the general population.
Dictators stay in power by keeping their people in fear. There are terrorists
who consider themselves Muslims much like Nazis thought they were
Christian.
Also as far as Muslims stepping up against these terrorists there is a lot
behind the scenes that isn't reported by a media bent on their agenda. That was
my point. You listen to the news and you would think Israel was on fire and
there are demonstrations everywhere by Muslims. I was there. And I am telling
you I never felt threatened. Are there hot spots? Sure. Are there countries
that we should be concerned about...absolutely...not because of the public at
large in that country, but because the people in charge. All in all there are
spots in America that are more dangerous for me to walk around by myself than
any spot I walked when I was back there. Don't forget, Israel is smaller than
Rhode Island...so it wouldn't be that hard to make things a war zone everywhere
if it was as bad as the media likes to make it out to be. I am not trying to
minimize the threat...as there are people there that are very dangerous...but
lets keep things in perspective...our enemy is terrorists, dictators, thugs, and
anyone who is evil, not Muslims. If you make it about Religion, then you will
hear the tired argument that Christians are just as bad...and they would be
right. People are people, good bad fat and ugly....in all races in all faiths
in all regions of the world. Where we need to make sure is we define who our
enemies are...terrorists...
Fighting against all Muslims is like ripping out a tooth with a cavity, when
it would be better to just chip away the cavity and rebuild
it.
Not too long, as noted....symbolism over substance...
The hamster came to mind after watching AFN for so long, they have a commercial with one in it, silly yes, but that's all we have. I guess he would be Squeakers the Truth Seeking Hamster......He actually doesn't post, I just type up his notes from the previous night....
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
I visited that site to see for myself. Perusing the first interview was enough for me - in which 60 minutes interviewed several Muslim scholars two weeks after 9/11.
They start off doing okay, then it goes downhill. Please observe.
[at the beginning]
Bradley: did you think Muslims could have committed this?
Wahaj: No, just from theological process, Islam doesn't only talk about the ends, but also the means; that however angry you are, you couldn't do anything like this. You couldn't kill innocent people.
Yusuf: It's prohibited in Islam to torture animals. It's prohibited to kill animals without just cause. So the idea of killing human beings, innocent human beings, is anathema to Muslims. They're deeply shocked by it.
[then suddenly, the mood starts to change. Check out what they say a mere five lines down]
Bradley: While Islam forbids the killing of innocents, in this 1998 interview, bin Laden justified the US embassy bombings in Africa, saying every American man is our enemy, whether he is a soldier or a taxpayer. As for the women and children who died, he says women and children die every day in Palestine. In a statement last week, bin Laden called for a jihad or holy war in the name of Allah.
Yusuf: I would say that he has no legitimate authority, that in Islam jihad can only be declared by legitimate state authority. And this is accepted by consensus. There is no vigilantism in Islam. Muslims believe in state authority.
[they don't condone Al Qaeda because they're vigilantes - but it's okay for the state of Iran to fund jihad]
[they then indirectly blame America for 9/11]:
Faisal: I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but united states policies were an accessory to the crime that happened...Because we have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.
[farther down they warn us what will happen if we go after Osama bin Laden]
Bradley: And now the United States, in the words of President Bush, is in hot pursuit of Osama bin Laden and the Taleban forces harboring him in Afghanistan, a prospect that frightens Muslim leaders in America.
Yusuf: If we're going to go into the Muslim world for more collateral damage, more bombing, more death, more destruction, the creation of more extreme conditions, we're not going to win a war on terrorism. We're going to in fact exacerbate the symptoms.
Typical Muslim response to Al Qaeda: okay we're sorry for that particular attack, but really you had it coming, and we're not giving up bin Laden.
card holding member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
doesn't sound way "downhill" to me - just sort sighted on Yusef's part - like US Dems - nice try though - very nice to hear someone is finally reading the links...
I Started reading these, after awhile I noticed the bar on the right wasen't moving very much. Then I proceeded to just scroll down. The volume of these types of stories is just immense!? It's hard to imagine how folks out there can be so blind to this hatred that exists out there. And even more idiotic that they think we can talk to these people. By all means keep documenting this and posting them perhaps it will open the eyes of some.
"When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat" R. Reagan
If people one year ago would have said this would be accomplished in Iraq, I might have been a bit skeptical. As it is, I find this pictorial piece awe inspiring. In his follow up to Thanks and Praise, Michael Yon send another dispatch loaded with pho…
In complete contrast your terrorist-promoting list up top is not exactly awe-inspiring to me...
TruthMonger - Read. Re-read. In the morning, re-read the list again. Repeat until you realize that "partnering with Islam" is impossible - unless "partnering with" means "surrender to"
it looks like you are the one who needs to do the re-re-re-reading - check out the Muslims in the church pews and get back to me with your humiliating apology - if you have the stones of course:)
Muslims are very likely converting to christianity. Orthodox islam as it is taught from the koran or the hadith is NOT A TOLERANT OR PEACEFUL RELIGION. Thank God they ARE converting to christianity instead.
Christianity and Islam at their core do NOT mix, do NOT worship the same God, or have the same morals.
yet again to derail the thread, the facts and truth. The issue remains of the apologist attitude. What you refuse to except is the undeniable truth that exists and regardless of the smoke and mirrors you present yourself as an apologist at heart, bringing very little if anything to the table. Warm and fuzzy obviously not working and based on your limited knowledge of the facts at hand and the continued apologist attitude, well there's not much one can do for that.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
it's not apologist at all to call terrorists "terrorists" and not "Muslim terrorists" or "Christian terrorists" - it's about as factual as you can get - they are oxy morons - kinda like you guys right now:)
Or let's start calling the Nazi's and the KKK "radical Christians:)?"
That's what some do around the globe right now - I'm sure you "Christian terrorists" embrace the characterization...
that you are obviously clueless concerning the whole point of this thread. I see that you are trying to sneak in a point that we believe all Muslims are terrorists, typical last grasp. Try something original and with a point sometime.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
That's comical coming from someone who has offered nothing.
First of all I call you clueless due to the fact you completely ignore all the facts at hand. I call you clueless due to the obvious ignorance of the aggressive courses of action being taken by Islam to further its reach and religious domination through the sword. I call you clueless because you can offer no substantial counter insight to support your apologist attitude. I call you clueless because you try to throw out "Nazis" and "KKK" as being "christian" movements designed to further the "christian" religion. I call you clueless due to your willing ignorance concering the religion of peace. I call you clueless because instead of bringing facts to the table, you make feeble attempts to derail the point. That in itself makes you clueless. Teetering on troll.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
so between you and I then - i guess we'll just make you the tie breaker on all this - sounds fair to me - CNN fair, that is...
i can counter all of it but I'm not into wasting time - and the problem is your eyes are currently wide shut - so it does no good right now - for example - over on the "what Islam has in store for us" thread Beowolf above asked me about the last time Christians were warring over religion - and I produced a list of such - along with plenty of additional info on Christians involved in violence, war, oppression - AND CLEARLY LABELED AS SUCH - I don't claim the Nazi's were solely trying to further the Christian religion at all - you came up with that - however Nazi's were undeniably Christian, the German army was undeniably Christian, and the extermination of the Jews was based in large part on their crucifixion of Christ - and the Russians sure as hell saw the Nazi's as Christian soldiers fighting directly and solely for Christ against the Russians - that may or may not be true - but that's certainly the way the Russians saw it - just like you see terrorists as figthing solely for Islam - but they're really just Arab Nazi's - and their twisted religious views have absolutely nothing to do with the pure Muslim faith the same way that Nazi's and the KKK weren't really true Christians...
here's a photo post of Nazi's mixing with church leaders during WW2:
and lest we forget the current Pope used to be in the Nazi party as a boy, and the German army as a young man (both compulsory for German boys and men at that time, of course - but still - HE DIDN'T EXACTLY ACTIVELY DENOUNCE THE NAZI'S NOW DID HE? but wait - i thought Christians absolutely always did that sort of thing?)
somewhere else. Quite an alternate view and facts on history you got going there. National Socialist Party christians? Anyhow, in true troll and clown form, the point of this thread is not what "christians" did hundreds of years ago from which we have not done again and came out of the dark ages, but what Islam HAS been doing for the past thousand years. I know that may be difficult for you to comprehend, but attempting to de-rail doesn't help. You obviously didn't read the intro, the statements are clearly made that there are those who have committed atrocities that may or may not have claimed a particular religious following, the difference being using that religious following to pursue the furtherance of that religious belief and system by the sword. So the only thing being denied is that you read the intro and aren't attempting a de-rail. So instead of waiting, just go ahead and pound sand...
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
Pre-Islam was pagan and they worshiped the sun god and the moon god (Al-llah, also called Sin and the crescent moon was his symbol) and the stars were their children. The pagan religion was lunar based and Islam continues that tradition (fasting is done from crescent to crescent). They also were required to pray towards Meca as Muslims do today. Pilgrimages to Meca were also required and they even would run to Wadi Medina to throw stones at the devil. All of this under the Pagan religion and then continued in Islam under Mohamed's direction. Mohamed never claimed to be without sin as Christ, he did not die for anyone as Christ did, he never performed a miracle as Christ did......
The biggest diference between God and Allah is that God is unchanging and Allah can change his mind or likes whenever it suits him. God layed out specific rules and the center of those rules are his love and concern for us, not so with Allah.
I didn't say Jesus was No.1, or No. 2, and that is not the point. Accepting Him as the Christ is the core. That is the promise from the God of Abraham.
There is only way to the Father. I am sure you are aware of John 14:6.
Now what about the news story? You have neglected to respond to a few of these that I have posted.
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
That's the best you can come up with? A general claim about a specific topic?
YOU can DENY it all you want, but the way to the God of Abraham is Jesus Christ. That is what your Muslim friends will not concede, and that is why a partnership will not work.
At the most fundemental aspect, the two cannot mix, but I don't need to tell a "fundie" like you that. Do I?
Conversing with you is like speaking with a toddler that insists on touching the hot stove will not burn him.
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
What in the world are you talking about? The subject at hand is not what Bush is doing, its about if a partnership with Islam will work.
You have failed to refute the core difference between Christianity and Islam as the problem of the idea. Islam's reputation is not for anyone to fix but themselves. Islam should be the one to cross the divide.
You keep repeating the same things over and over expecting them to become true. Your a pathetic "fundie" that argues like a child.
I rest my case.
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
Oh I get what you are saying (all 50 times at least), but as I have told you before, its a dumb idea.
And, AGAIN, we weren't talking about what Bush is doing. YOU took the converstaion there, because YOU cannot grasp the concept that at the core, the two faiths cannot "partner".
You have lost just about every shred of credibility you had on here, and you know it.
Do us a favor, while you are waiting, hold your breath.
:)
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
we are talking about partnering with Muslims - which is what Bush is doing with the WOT bud - sorry if it's a bit "beyond" you right now - but I understand...
You wouldn't talk this way right now about Jews or Roman Catholics or Protestants - just Muslims right now - it will pass - either by you changing your mind or your kind just dying off - just like the incredibly disappearing KKK bigots down south...
Losing credibility with you somehow doesn't concern me - but I don't claim to have credibility anyway - I'm just a sinner, just the messenger of God/Jesus/Allah:) - the God of Abraham
More gooey goodness from the religion of peace and tolerance...and a big stack of bodies. I supppose "truth monger" has run out of reasons why we should bend over and smile. Haven't seen him for a while, must be out passing around hugs....
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
I figured this post would be a good place to draw your attention to an anniversary...
Before al-Qaeda and 9/11/01, there were other terrorist atrocities. On 27 December 1985, terrorists hit the airports at Rome and Vienna simultaneously, and rewarded a few travelers not with frequent flier miles but with bullets and grenades. (Looking back, I really don't know what an 11-year-old American girl could do one way or another to these guys, but that mattered not to them, as she was killed all the same.)
Even with recent events like 9/11/01, I keep incidents like these in mind. Or, other events like the embassy bombings in Beirut in 1983 and 1984. Or the Marine barracks getting hit in 1983. Or...
Ringing in the New Year (update above), Jihad style with the RoP passing out hugs, cheer, and a big stack of bodies.....but mostly a big stack of bodies.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
Ignore all of the above and drive on with the incapability to provide a counter to it. Rock on?....heh. Yea, it's a safe bet that nobody else needs convincing, it's apparent your the only one playing the apeasement/aplogetics card. As usual, if you can't argue logically......
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
Wait for? More time for no supporting arguements? Wait for another dose of reality? Wait to provide more asshattery? These little one liners do so little for your apeasement/aplogetics movement. I provide proof and logic, and you provide deafening silence. Keep paddling your chickenwire canoe of denial and providing fodder for the rest of us.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
Sua, I'm pretty sure Truth has caught on that no amount of any substantiated argument is gonig to sway you, only further bait your apparent need to be 'right' in this argument. The 'I can't wait' is probably a reference for when we kick the bucket. I think he's correct in an odd, roundabout way. While the majority of what we see of Islam are radicals, there are many, many more that we *don't* see who may indeed still believe non-muslims are damned but that is no different than the many Christians here who also believe if you do not ascribe to certain lifestyle choices, that you too are damned.
To be clear, since many here will willing take something the wrong way in order to give 'their side' more fuel, let me say Im not comparing radical Islam to Christians, but I do see alot of people who are quick to lump Islamic believers who feel anyone not ascribing to their religion as damned as part of these 'radicals.' I think that is foolish and TM brings a good point up that if each religion of the world points fingers at one another as blasphemers unworthy of co-operation in the world, let alone possible amicable relations, then those who feel that way are only breaching the divide further, and in turn, are now part of the problem themselves.
That said though, give TM a break. He's not running, he just knows its foolish to waste his time and effort on someone who refuses to be convinced to see things his way. That doesn't make you wrong, or make him right, he just realizes the best situation is an agreement to disagree. Its just childish to continue to berate him after the fact. It speaks, to me at least, that you've lost any interest in the actual debate and are now more interested in simply exercising the idea that you are correct and he is incorrect. Its fine if you feel that way, but it is merely your opinion. If you feel you've 'won' because he's not arguing anymore than why waste the time here to bait and gloat? Go thorw yourself a party! :)
(I promise that was a good spirited barb, I just think too often people care about being 'right' than they do about learning anything about others views during debate.
You may want to re-read the opening of the thread.
"While the majority of what we see of Islam are radicals, there are many, many more that we *don't* see who may indeed still believe non-muslims are damned but that is no different than the many Christians here who also believe if you do not ascribe to certain lifestyle choices, that you too are damned".
It's not a matter of wether the belief is true, liked, or disliked. It's a matter of if you don't believe, you will or by the sword. As noted in the opening of the thread, there is a difference between preaching your religion, preaching it at the end of a sword and furthering your religion based on conversion by violence and then claiming to be the tolerant religion of peace!
"Its just childish to continue to berate him after the fact. It speaks, to me at least, that you've lost any interest in the actual debate and are now more interested in simply exercising the idea that you are correct and he is incorrect".
I'm sorry, didn't realize providing proof was berating someone or childish....Showing proof is not an exercise of ideas, as duly noted many times above...I let the stack of dead bodies do the talking....
I've note his "views", they are nothing but apologetics and apeasement at every level. I don't mind a debate, but when you can't provide any, any backing to your side of a debate execpt for hack responses that have absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand, that pretty much says it all.
I believe you've missed the whole point of the thread and the issue. Don't tell me you're the most tolerant, peaceful religion on the planet and produce nothing but a stack of bodies in your quest...
Also odd is that someone calls themself a truth-seeker or monger, yet cowers when it is presented....
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
Yea, but I more or less think he's refering to reaching out to the Muslims who aren't spreading it by the sword. The ones that, like you mentioned, are like many Christians in their belief that non-christians are damned, yet do not use violence nor coercion to advance their beliefs.
I can agree that sometimes TM comes from left field with certain things, but he is correct in acknowledging that if we don't find *some* common ground and try to heal and create an amicable relationship with the more moderate Muslim community, then we are only further bridging the divide, and giving more reason and fuel for the case of radicals trying to convert moderates to their viewpoint. I agree, you can just walk up to a suicide bomber and expect a hug will make them put down the bomb as well as their Jihad. I also hate that the majorty of the media would like to quietly ignore the problem of radical Islam and its danger to us as Americans and Israelis as well. However, I was just saying I think TM is being misunderstood and is not running from the debate, rather just holding his words since his suggestion of 'reaching out' to moderate Muslims is being read as an appeasement toward radical Islam.
His approach is apeasement and apologetics, plain and simple.
"but he is correct in acknowledging that if we don't find *some* common ground and try to heal and create an amicable relationship with the more moderate Muslim community"
If you've read a news article in the last eight years then you would see not only individuals, but countries falling all over themselves to find "common ground". Appealing and appeasement obviously has not worked over the past eight years, or for the past six hundred (as again noted above).
"I think TM is being misunderstood and is not running from the debate, rather just holding his words since his suggestion of 'reaching out' to moderate Muslims is being read as an appeasement toward radical Islam".
I know he's not running because there is no running from the facts. Herein lies the problem, where oh where are all these "moderate" muslims standing up and taking account? I'm willing to bet they are not in mostly Arabic countries. We are expected to appease and be PC in a give and take, however it is undeniable that it is a mostly take situation on their part. How much more reaching out is needed and why do we need to reach out to someone whom is not under attack by us?
"then we are only further bridging the divide, and giving more reason and fuel for the case of radicals trying to convert moderates to their viewpoint".
The divide is the killing of innocent individuals, the furtherance of religion by the sword, so how exactly are we fueling any fires by not coping out and standing up? Not accepting the atrocities does not create more terrorists.
Bottom line is the misnomer that this is the "religion of peace" and it is obvious no length of "reaching out" is going to satisfy until complete conversion and Islamic law is initiated.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
Comments Policy
Sua... How long until TM
November 11, 2007 - 13:56 ET by Clear thinkerSua...
How long until TM trys to squash your list as being hurtful?
I for one, have trouble understanding what TM is trying to do. If we are to partner with Islam, are we expected to support jihad? Not gonna happen! He has tried many times to convince us that he is in contact with influential Muslims and our comments on NB are being read by them. I will beleive this only when he invites some of these contacts to come here and give their side of the story.
BTW... my wife loves your pic. She had no idea that Hamsters were allowed to post on NB ;-)
Get Email updates from Fred http://socialnet.imwithfred.com/email_alert_july_26.html
}}---> Unholy Partnerships
November 12, 2007 - 03:25 ET by Cool ArrowThis Liberal crap of sucking up to our sworn enemies is at best, disgusting.
We've got our own "Neville Chamberlains" inserting themselves among us as Trojan Horses, and Truthie's no exception.
Pat Robertson also falls into the same basket. Here we have a Minister who built his ministry largely on a belief in miracles and an anti-abortion theme. So what does he do? Same thing Abraham did. Hopped in the sack with Hagar to fulfill God's promise. Metaphorically speaking Rudy is Hagar, of course. No problem with Robertson supporting Rudy when Rudy and Hillary are all that's left. I'm hoping Robertson's viewers are more trusting in God than he is
Now we've got the President siding with the AGW crowd in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary. Why? I've got no clue, but he's selling us out to higher and newer taxes after he leaves office.
This Liberal crap of sucking up to our sworn enemies is at best,
November 21, 2007 - 15:57 ET by professor truthSince when is Bush a liberal?. He's been sucking up to the Saudis for years. not to mention that wonderful dictator in Pakistan, Busharaf. Why does Bush and his criminal gang suck up to those who want to kill us?
Muslim's are not our sworn
November 21, 2007 - 16:03 ET by TruthMongerMuslim's are not our sworn enemies - there are about 5 million that are US citizens
professor...and Clinton?
November 21, 2007 - 16:02 ET by LionKingDid Clinton turn his back on our allies like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan?
Did Clinton make deals with North Korea? Haven't the Clintons and Gores been in bed with Communist China for years?
Why don't you stick to talking about things you actually understand...perhaps operating a TV remote control.
Foreign policy primer
November 25, 2007 - 03:32 ET by UnsaneMusharraf and the U.S. have one thing in common: our enemies.
The Saudis likewise want to whack terrorists that destabilize their regime. Since these are often the same guys who want to kill Americans, we shut up and let them do their thing.
Realpolitik is a wonderful thing. I suggest reading The Prince some time.
In the meantime, you might not want to discuss things you are not qualified to discuss (like foreign policy, for starters).
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
This is not defamation -
November 12, 2007 - 12:02 ET by TruthMongerThis is not defamation - which is all i was suggesting - well done - not really all that hard is it...:)?
This is your only erroneous assertion really:
Sadly, very few if any religious leaders have stepped forward to condemn the “Jihadist” movement or actions.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=muslims+denounce+terror
Responses to this link usually result in "terrorist-sympathizer" or "useful idiot" accusations, or "this is not enough" or "these are not prominent people" etc, etc, etc - whatever excuses possible - and they go on and on and on matter what I post to the contrary...
The best way to get more Muslims to pressure "Muslim" terrorists is to proacttively partner with them - they need our help - and it is the Christian thing to help - I'm doing it locally (link below) with my church - we are partnering with the Mall Area Religious Council and help organize interfaith events at the Mall of America:
http://www.interfaithings.org
There should be an interfaith group near you as well...
Most Muslims are not "jihadists" but rather simple, decent, hard-working, peaceful people - and most share my conservative Christian values against abortion, gay marriage, porn, etc...
And for this I'm sure you'll call me an appeasing, terrorist-loving, jihadist sympathizer, etc:)...
Partner with Islam and the NiceBelievers respect police:)
}}---> Not so Truthie
November 12, 2007 - 12:10 ET by Cool ArrowAnd for this I'm sure you'll call me an appeasing, terrorist-loving, jihadist sympathizer, etc:)...
We don't have to. You've already copped to all of it.
like i said...you know
November 12, 2007 - 12:58 ET by TruthMongerlike i said...
you know it's getting to be alot like posting on deliverance around here sometimes now:)
BTW looks like I lost - defamation will probably not be banned on NB - tacitly approved then:
From: Matthew Sheffield
To: TruthMonger
Subject: Re: Please change your signature line
Date: November 8, 2007 - 11:28
You haven't exactly been a good example of not defaming others.
> will do - is a policy against defamation in the works at all?
>
> > Something that does not imply endorsement of your views from NB.
> >
> > > to what?
> > >
> > > >Please change your signature line
}}---> Signature line
November 12, 2007 - 13:11 ET by Cool ArrowNo secret it was I who originally opposed your misuse of the NB in your signature line.
I was surprised you were allowed to usurp it for so long.
yes, I came to understand
November 15, 2007 - 14:35 ET by TruthMongeryes, I came to understand that it might be kinda hard for "certain special individuals" here to realize that it was not actually an official NB endorsement (being confined to my tagline along with the lack of any formal announcement anywhere on the NB site)...
i initially saw it as an informal club of like-minded NB posters heroically concerned about the site's growing image as "the conservative dkos" and also the Muslim defamation hampering the WOT...
But obviously some of NB's visitors are not exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer:).
And the mastheads don't care much about religious defamation as it turns out - surprised me, but so be it...
Feast in your victory bro!
Silence please.
November 16, 2007 - 11:49 ET by sunandsteelYou have been on and on about defamation.
What is that then?
Texas has a population of nearly 21 million people, all of whom are ashamed to be from the same state as the Dixie Chicks. (IMAO.us)
it's not religious
November 21, 2007 - 16:07 ET by TruthMongerit's not religious defamation:)
never-the-less defamation is not banned here - thanks to you
if there was a ban then maybe i couldn't have written that:)
there might have been some recourse against me as well
oh well
Once again...
November 12, 2007 - 13:21 ET by Sua Sponte 75You're right, it's not enough. Albeit individuals may be stepping forward, however it's the leadership that provides the guideance and standards of conduct for the masses. If you don't have prominent leadership stepping forward on a grand scale, then what example do you think the people following them see? Lead by example, always a good path. You may have these individuals standing up, but where are they standing up? Standing up is fine, following through after the fact is another. If you bother to read what's posted you will see that this is not just about getting along. Why? Well mostly due to the fact this is about the religious convergence of the world, willing or unwilling. Also noted are some of the examples, and just a small amount I might add, of the issue dealing with these acts based on faith. It's also about not assimilating into mainstream society, in fact it's preached not to and to force the communities to succumb, also noted above. Inter faith events are all well and good but this is not changing anything. On a side note, when you make excuses for what's been done, and what's going on, well there is no way around it, you're an apologist. The bottom line is that these extremists want the total destruction of democratic societies and Sharia law installed and the only thing that comes from a "cease fire" and these talks, is time given to them to re-group, re-arm, and establish another course of action. Once individuals start standing up and following through with stopping these actions, maybe I'll slightly interested in what they're doing. At some point in time they have to start taking it upon themselves to stop the Islamic aggression that is. As stated by John Stuart Mill; "A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
}}---> Excellent Sua Sponte
November 12, 2007 - 13:32 ET by Cool ArrowAlso lost on him is the following eerie similarity between the Bible and Sharia:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast.
Strange their cause of death is beheading, isn't it? Some things are just too terrible to believe for those who apologize for the "religion of peace".
heavy sigh at least your
November 15, 2007 - 13:37 ET by TruthMongerheavy sigh
at least your having fun i guess - play nice in your sandbox. try the pail and shovel - you can scoop the sand into the pail all by yourself:)!
Muslims and Jews
November 13, 2007 - 22:38 ET by Conservative VoiceI just got back from visiting Egypt, Israel, and Jordan. I will have to
concur. Most of the Muslims there love Americans, want peace with Israel, and
basically decent folks. They are hard working and passionate people. Several
years ago there was a massacre of tourists in Egypt...and the Muslims in the
area hunted down the terrorists and killed them.
The Jews I met also were very pro-American, and would love peace with their
Muslim neighbors. There are a number of Muslims who live in Israel just fine.
Even the people of Palestine, many Arabs in Bethlehem are Christian. But even
those who aren't many of them are just trying to put food on the tables and are
quite decent. Fact is the area is more peaceful than some cities here in the
states. The media hypes the bad stuff and doesn't give a very accurate picture.
The problem really is the few terrorists who make life difficult for both sides. And terrorists use the youth much like Hitler did, and much like our street gangs do, because the youth is easily controlled.
TM is right, we don't need a war with Muslims, rather we need to find ways to make a united front against terrorists and with dictator thug governments out to destroy everything good ( like Iran ). We are no better than the terrorists if we fuel the flames of hate. Our hearts and minds should be focused on peace...not getting even...and you can never accomplish peace if you are fighting bigotry with bigotry.
Did you get to visit with
November 14, 2007 - 03:21 ET by alamojbDid you get to visit with any of the Coptic Christians in Egypt?
We already are...
November 15, 2007 - 07:22 ET by Sua Sponte 75I aplaud your sentiments, however, we are at war wether anyone chooses to see that or not. It's not a war against the people by any means, but the agressive nature in which they are pushing the "Islamization" of other countries. I think you are failing to see the grand scale of what exactly is going on, especially with such a raw percentage of incidents posted above. We are better than the terroists and if you feel that we "fuel the flames of hate", well, you just aren't getting it. It's wonderful to have all these "come together" meetings that you and TM speak of, but tell me where are these individuals other than in the U.S.? Where are these moderates and citizens in the countries in which there are the main problems? Why are they not stepping forward? I see you should choose towards the end to throw in bigotry, yet another sign that you just don't get it. The united front has been made, quit commiting terrorist acts, that's pretty simple. Quit murdering people, that's pretty simple. Quit killing people based on their religion and your lust to install yours, that's pretty simple. A good sign of faith on the side of the Muslim people would be to step forward in these countries and start eliminating the ones who bring shame upon them as well as governments who harbor or do nothing about these persons. Being all warm and fuzzy feelings sounds good and might look good on paper, but when push comes to shove, won't hold an ounce of water.....
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
}}---> Nazi Germany
November 15, 2007 - 07:44 ET by Cool ArrowGerman Americans enlisted in droves during WWII and Japanese Americans enlisted even though many had relatives held in FDR's Concentration Camps.
The deafening silence of the American Muslims watching from our side of the field is matched only by those flattered Aryans who bought into Hitler's bargain.
At best, they're hedging their bets.
Plant crops - not questions
The MSM was pro-US
November 15, 2007 - 12:31 ET by TruthMongerThe MSM was pro-US military back then - and promoted it
Now they are anti-US military to say the least, and tell Muslims that Bush wants to use the US mil to destroy Islam only to make oil money with conquered Muslim countries - big difference
}}---> Not really Truthie
November 15, 2007 - 13:13 ET by Cool ArrowWe had to quickly rid ourselves of the idiot ideas of Charles Darwin's cousin while we were at it. Eugenics was a very close movement to that which Hitler had going.
Plant crops - not questions
not really? i believe
November 15, 2007 - 13:34 ET by TruthMongernot really? i believe you may have actually been around during WW2 and you know better first hand...?
never the less if you can find someone else here who sees no major difference between the MSM on WW2 vs. the WOT I'd be very happy to see it...
make me happy for a change bro:)
Thanks for the help, CV.
November 15, 2007 - 12:18 ET by TruthMongerThanks for the help, CV. The Mormon bashing has unfortunately switched to Muslim bashing around here in your absence...
We are at war - never said we weren't - with terrorists - not Muslims - these terrorists are not Muslims any more than the KKK or the Nazi's were Christian - it takes more than just calling yourself a Muslim or Christian, or being raised that way - it is a way of life, a set of actions and behaviors, not just beliefs - Satan is twisting our beliefs into bigotry, hatred, and war - and only you can stop yourself from following him - talk about not seeing the grand scale of what's going on...
If you don't believe you are fueling the flames of hate you are the one who is not getting it.
Most Muslims do not live in the ME - only about 15% of the world's total Muslim population - terrorism continues to be denounced and actively resisted and fought by major Muslim leaders all over the world - not just in the US - again my google link will show you that. They are stepping forward. You just refuse to believe it - and furthermore you also refuse to help as I have suggested...
I also strongly suggested you do not legitimize these so-called "Muslim" terrorists by calling them Muslim or posting their twisted propaganda from perverted interpretations of the Koran, Hadith, etc...
It's as absurd as posting David Koresh's teachings and "Bible quotes" to prove that Christianity is a religion of terror and that all Christians want to kill us. NB would hit the roof if some MSM "news" outfit tried to push that...
We partnered with Germans in the US during WW's 1 and 2 to defeat Germany - they became US troops - and now we have Muslim troops in the US military fighting the WOT - we can partner with them...
You could show a sign of good faith by posting more about that instead of your favorite terrorist quotes...
WW II...TM?
November 15, 2007 - 13:28 ET by LionKingWhat happened to the Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor got attacked?
ummm - which ones? Their
November 15, 2007 - 13:30 ET by TruthMongerummm - which ones? Their were several...i can check my list:)
We partnered with Germans
November 15, 2007 - 23:42 ET by dvdaughtryWe partnered with Germans in the US during WW's 1 and 2 to defeat Germany - they became US troops - and now we have Muslim troops in the US military fighting the WOT - we can partner with them...
You have it backwards: we did not partner with them, they partnered with us. That is why they became US troops.
I would like to see how many Muslim troops there are in our armed forces.
The ball is in Islam's court. They need to fixed the mess the "non muslims" have made.
That is if they truly think there is a mess.
Here is some more "Fake Muslim" news:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311848,00.html
Please note the second to last paragraph:
Saudi Arabia enforces a strict Islamic doctrine that forbids unrelated men and women from associating with each other, bans women from driving and forces them to cover head-to-toe in public.
Yeah, I can see this "partnership" working just peachy =).
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
The Proof...
November 16, 2007 - 01:51 ET by Sua Sponte 75is in your posts. You are an apologist plain and simple and obviously make every attempt at using smoke and mirrors, it's more than evident. Just how is defending yourself fueling the flames? Please explain, as asked of you many times, just how does what your speaking of relate to the atrocities being committed? I know you will be unable to, or reference something obscure with no bearing. I don't refuse to believe individuals are stepping forward, and it's obvious you completely ignored my previous post calling you to the carpet on that, and still you continue the apologist role and mouthpiece. I'm not sure what world you are living in and just what exactly pushes a person to completely ignore the events over the past ten years, but it is sad. You are being disengenuous when you say we are calling these terrorists "Muslim", this is pure ignorance on your part since you surely haven't been paying attention. They call themselves that, they are pushing for jihad, sharia law and so forth. Call me crazy but I think those are of the Muslim faith. They wage these atrocities in the name of Islam, Allah and you're not sure they are Muslims? What would really be great is that if you had enough intestinal fortitude to stand up to them the same way you try to stand up to those fighting this aggression. Although the magic 8 ball seems to say otherwise.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
Muslims and the war
November 16, 2007 - 14:19 ET by Conservative VoiceFirst of all, I am all for the war on terror. Secondly do not confuse
actions of people in power with the approval of the general population.
Dictators stay in power by keeping their people in fear. There are terrorists
who consider themselves Muslims much like Nazis thought they were
Christian.
Also as far as Muslims stepping up against these terrorists there is a lot
behind the scenes that isn't reported by a media bent on their agenda. That was
my point. You listen to the news and you would think Israel was on fire and
there are demonstrations everywhere by Muslims. I was there. And I am telling
you I never felt threatened. Are there hot spots? Sure. Are there countries
that we should be concerned about...absolutely...not because of the public at
large in that country, but because the people in charge. All in all there are
spots in America that are more dangerous for me to walk around by myself than
any spot I walked when I was back there. Don't forget, Israel is smaller than
Rhode Island...so it wouldn't be that hard to make things a war zone everywhere
if it was as bad as the media likes to make it out to be. I am not trying to
minimize the threat...as there are people there that are very dangerous...but
lets keep things in perspective...our enemy is terrorists, dictators, thugs, and
anyone who is evil, not Muslims. If you make it about Religion, then you will
hear the tired argument that Christians are just as bad...and they would be
right. People are people, good bad fat and ugly....in all races in all faiths
in all regions of the world. Where we need to make sure is we define who our
enemies are...terrorists...
Fighting against all Muslims is like ripping out a tooth with a cavity, when
it would be better to just chip away the cavity and rebuild
it.
Thanks..
November 12, 2007 - 13:44 ET by Sua Sponte 75Not too long, as noted....symbolism over substance...
The hamster came to mind after watching AFN for so long, they have a commercial with one in it, silly yes, but that's all we have. I guess he would be Squeakers the Truth Seeking Hamster......He actually doesn't post, I just type up his notes from the previous night....
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
truthie's peace site
November 14, 2007 - 01:08 ET by candanceI visited that site to see for myself. Perusing the first interview was enough for me - in which 60 minutes interviewed several Muslim scholars two weeks after 9/11.
They start off doing okay, then it goes downhill. Please observe.
[at the beginning]
Bradley: did you think Muslims could have committed this?
Wahaj: No, just from theological process, Islam doesn't only talk about the ends, but also the means; that however angry you are, you couldn't do anything like this. You couldn't kill innocent people.
Yusuf: It's prohibited in Islam to torture animals. It's prohibited to kill animals without just cause. So the idea of killing human beings, innocent human beings, is anathema to Muslims. They're deeply shocked by it.
[then suddenly, the mood starts to change. Check out what they say a mere five lines down]
Bradley: While Islam forbids the killing of innocents, in this 1998 interview, bin Laden justified the US embassy bombings in Africa, saying every American man is our enemy, whether he is a soldier or a taxpayer. As for the women and children who died, he says women and children die every day in Palestine. In a statement last week, bin Laden called for a jihad or holy war in the name of Allah.
Yusuf: I would say that he has no legitimate authority, that in Islam jihad can only be declared by legitimate state authority. And this is accepted by consensus. There is no vigilantism in Islam. Muslims believe in state authority.
[they don't condone Al Qaeda because they're vigilantes - but it's okay for the state of Iran to fund jihad]
[they then indirectly blame America for 9/11]:
Faisal: I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but united states policies were an accessory to the crime that happened...Because we have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.
[farther down they warn us what will happen if we go after Osama bin Laden]
Bradley: And now the United States, in the words of President Bush, is in hot pursuit of Osama bin Laden and the Taleban forces harboring him in Afghanistan, a prospect that frightens Muslim leaders in America.
Yusuf: If we're going to go into the Muslim world for more collateral damage, more bombing, more death, more destruction, the creation of more extreme conditions, we're not going to win a war on terrorism. We're going to in fact exacerbate the symptoms.
Typical Muslim response to Al Qaeda: okay we're sorry for that particular attack, but really you had it coming, and we're not giving up bin Laden.
card holding member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
doesn't sound way
November 15, 2007 - 12:22 ET by TruthMongerdoesn't sound way "downhill" to me - just sort sighted on Yusef's part - like US Dems - nice try though - very nice to hear someone is finally reading the links...
WOW
November 16, 2007 - 03:07 ET by NofI Started reading these, after awhile I noticed the bar on the right wasen't moving very much. Then I proceeded to just scroll down. The volume of these types of stories is just immense!? It's hard to imagine how folks out there can be so blind to this hatred that exists out there. And even more idiotic that they think we can talk to these people. By all means keep documenting this and posting them perhaps it will open the eyes of some.
"When you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat" R. Reagan
A collection of...
November 16, 2007 - 07:40 ET by Sua Sponte 75Weekly Jihad Report
Nov. 03 - Nov. 09 Jihad Attacks: 52
Dead Bodies: 304
Critically Injured: 231
Monthly Jihad Report October 2007 Jihad Attacks: 242
Countries: 19
Religions: 5
Dead Bodies: 1252
Critically Injured: 2287
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
again thank you for making
November 21, 2007 - 13:14 ET by TruthMongeragain thank you for making my case:)
partner with Muslims to help stop this - if you can find the time to stop bitching about "Muslim" terrorists that is
try being "a part of the solution instead of the problem:)"
Thought I would add my meager list of moderates
November 16, 2007 - 06:28 ET by well99http://patdollard.com/2007/11/11/civilians-remove-ieds-along-us-military-route/
http://www.youtube.c...
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/689
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131580,00.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter16.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20018405/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqF3mkJ8k_Y&feature=related
I dont understand why CAIR is used by media to represent Muslims in this country.This link will give some info on ther membership.
http://www3.washingt...
Much Appreciated..
November 16, 2007 - 07:42 ET by Sua Sponte 75Thanks for the contribution....
CAIR...oh where to start with that trainwreck.....
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
Interesting Link
November 17, 2007 - 02:19 ET by well99You wont see this on the msm.
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/come-home.htm
Nice!
November 20, 2007 - 00:14 ET by Free StinkerNice!
just remember stinky - the
November 21, 2007 - 12:51 ET by TruthMongerjust remember stinky - the Muslim's in this pictorial belong to the "religion of terror" you love to promote
But I still prefer to be a Muslim "apologist" for these fine folks:)
love this quote:
J's Cafe Nette Says:
A reason to give thanks…
If people one year ago would have said this would be accomplished in Iraq, I might have been a bit skeptical. As it is, I find this pictorial piece awe inspiring.
In his follow up to Thanks and Praise, Michael Yon send another dispatch loaded with pho…
In complete contrast your terrorist-promoting list up top is not exactly awe-inspiring to me...
Sua & His Award Winning List!
November 20, 2007 - 21:08 ET by Free StinkerAnd remember, Sua's list is an Award winning one!
TruthMonger - Read. Re-read. In the morning, re-read the list again. Repeat until you realize that "partnering with Islam" is impossible - unless "partnering with" means "surrender to"
it looks like you are the
November 21, 2007 - 13:10 ET by TruthMongerit looks like you are the one who needs to do the re-re-re-reading - check out the Muslims in the church pews and get back to me with your humiliating apology - if you have the stones of course:)
here you go:
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/come-home.htm
Muslims are very likely
November 21, 2007 - 14:26 ET by AvatarMuslims are very likely converting to christianity. Orthodox islam as it is taught from the koran or the hadith is NOT A TOLERANT OR PEACEFUL RELIGION. Thank God they ARE converting to christianity instead.
Christianity and Islam at their core do NOT mix, do NOT worship the same God, or have the same morals.
The Avatar
they do mix at the core -
November 21, 2007 - 16:09 ET by TruthMongerthey do mix at the core - the God of Abraham:)
which you don't want to accept right now I know...
no biggie really...
i can wait
All attempts
November 22, 2007 - 02:26 ET by Sua Sponte 75yet again to derail the thread, the facts and truth. The issue remains of the apologist attitude. What you refuse to except is the undeniable truth that exists and regardless of the smoke and mirrors you present yourself as an apologist at heart, bringing very little if anything to the table. Warm and fuzzy obviously not working and based on your limited knowledge of the facts at hand and the continued apologist attitude, well there's not much one can do for that.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
Truthie's at it again
November 25, 2007 - 03:55 ET by Cool ArrowLet's just ignore the "smattering" of Muslims who called for the Pope's execution.
it would be great if you could accept facts:)
November 26, 2007 - 13:09 ET by TruthMongerit's not apologist at all to call terrorists "terrorists" and not "Muslim terrorists" or "Christian terrorists" - it's about as factual as you can get - they are oxy morons - kinda like you guys right now:)
Or let's start calling the Nazi's and the KKK "radical Christians:)?"
That's what some do around the globe right now - I'm sure you "Christian terrorists" embrace the characterization...
Just Admit...
November 27, 2007 - 04:07 ET by Sua Sponte 75that you are obviously clueless concerning the whole point of this thread. I see that you are trying to sneak in a point that we believe all Muslims are terrorists, typical last grasp. Try something original and with a point sometime.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
good one man - you call me
November 27, 2007 - 15:46 ET by TruthMongergood one man - you call me clueless and I call you clueless - so now what:)?
I'm clueless?
November 28, 2007 - 01:35 ET by Sua Sponte 75That's comical coming from someone who has offered nothing.
First of all I call you clueless due to the fact you completely ignore all the facts at hand. I call you clueless due to the obvious ignorance of the aggressive courses of action being taken by Islam to further its reach and religious domination through the sword. I call you clueless because you can offer no substantial counter insight to support your apologist attitude. I call you clueless because you try to throw out "Nazis" and "KKK" as being "christian" movements designed to further the "christian" religion. I call you clueless due to your willing ignorance concering the religion of peace. I call you clueless because instead of bringing facts to the table, you make feeble attempts to derail the point. That in itself makes you clueless. Teetering on troll.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
so between you and I then -
November 28, 2007 - 22:46 ET by TruthMongerso between you and I then - i guess we'll just make you the tie breaker on all this - sounds fair to me - CNN fair, that is...
i can counter all of it but I'm not into wasting time - and the problem is your eyes are currently wide shut - so it does no good right now - for example - over on the "what Islam has in store for us" thread Beowolf above asked me about the last time Christians were warring over religion - and I produced a list of such - along with plenty of additional info on Christians involved in violence, war, oppression - AND CLEARLY LABELED AS SUCH - I don't claim the Nazi's were solely trying to further the Christian religion at all - you came up with that - however Nazi's were undeniably Christian, the German army was undeniably Christian, and the extermination of the Jews was based in large part on their crucifixion of Christ - and the Russians sure as hell saw the Nazi's as Christian soldiers fighting directly and solely for Christ against the Russians - that may or may not be true - but that's certainly the way the Russians saw it - just like you see terrorists as figthing solely for Islam - but they're really just Arab Nazi's - and their twisted religious views have absolutely nothing to do with the pure Muslim faith the same way that Nazi's and the KKK weren't really true Christians...
here's a photo post of Nazi's mixing with church leaders during WW2:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
and lest we forget the current Pope used to be in the Nazi party as a boy, and the German army as a young man (both compulsory for German boys and men at that time, of course - but still - HE DIDN'T EXACTLY ACTIVELY DENOUNCE THE NAZI'S NOW DID HE? but wait - i thought Christians absolutely always did that sort of thing?)
http://www.infowars.com/articles/world/pope_benedict_israel_praises_despite_nazi_ties.htm
and of course I know you will still deny this - someway, somehow...until your eyes are open:)
I can wait - decades if I have to...
Be a clown...
November 29, 2007 - 01:42 ET by Sua Sponte 75somewhere else. Quite an alternate view and facts on history you got going there. National Socialist Party christians? Anyhow, in true troll and clown form, the point of this thread is not what "christians" did hundreds of years ago from which we have not done again and came out of the dark ages, but what Islam HAS been doing for the past thousand years. I know that may be difficult for you to comprehend, but attempting to de-rail doesn't help. You obviously didn't read the intro, the statements are clearly made that there are those who have committed atrocities that may or may not have claimed a particular religious following, the difference being using that religious following to pursue the furtherance of that religious belief and system by the sword. So the only thing being denied is that you read the intro and aren't attempting a de-rail. So instead of waiting, just go ahead and pound sand...
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
we still have Nazi's bro -
December 20, 2007 - 12:44 ET by TruthMongerwe still have Nazi's bro - eyes still wide shut i see...
Sorry Truth Monger
November 26, 2007 - 10:54 ET by ambersorry, but you are wrong.
Pre-Islam was pagan and they worshiped the sun god and the moon god (Al-llah, also called Sin and the crescent moon was his symbol) and the stars were their children. The pagan religion was lunar based and Islam continues that tradition (fasting is done from crescent to crescent). They also were required to pray towards Meca as Muslims do today. Pilgrimages to Meca were also required and they even would run to Wadi Medina to throw stones at the devil. All of this under the Pagan religion and then continued in Islam under Mohamed's direction. Mohamed never claimed to be without sin as Christ, he did not die for anyone as Christ did, he never performed a miracle as Christ did......
The biggest diference between God and Allah is that God is unchanging and Allah can change his mind or likes whenever it suits him. God layed out specific rules and the center of those rules are his love and concern for us, not so with Allah.
yeah - I'm wrong all right:)
November 26, 2007 - 13:15 ET by TruthMonger...read some basic Christian history - Christianity has been pagan too (Constantine) - and actually still is regarding Christmas and Easter...
The name Allah comes from Eli or El Shaddai
The Core
November 26, 2007 - 13:07 ET by dvdaughtryThe core is Jesus as the Christ/Messiah, not the claim of worshiping the God of Abraham.
That what separates Christians from everyone (Jews (that have not accepted Christ), Buddah, Agnostic, Athiest, etc), not just Islam.
Did we see the latest Islam news? Are they "fake" Muslims too?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312895,00.html
Last Line:
Under Sudan's Sharia law, blasphemy could attract a large fine, 40 lashes or a jail term of up to six months.
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
Jesus sits at the right hand
November 26, 2007 - 13:14 ET by TruthMongerJesus sits at the right hand of the Father bud - Jesus is not the core - in my Bible anyway - he's #2...
You can't argue the with the Truth
November 26, 2007 - 13:21 ET by dvdaughtryI didn't say Jesus was No.1, or No. 2, and that is not the point. Accepting Him as the Christ is the core. That is the promise from the God of Abraham.
There is only way to the Father. I am sure you are aware of John 14:6.
Now what about the news story? You have neglected to respond to a few of these that I have posted.
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
nice try but the core of
November 27, 2007 - 15:45 ET by TruthMongernice try but the core of the universe is God, the God of Abraham - same God that Muslims worship - accept or deny - it's your call
That's the best you can
November 27, 2007 - 16:07 ET by dvdaughtryThat's the best you can come up with? A general claim about a specific topic?
YOU can DENY it all you want, but the way to the God of Abraham is Jesus Christ. That is what your Muslim friends will not concede, and that is why a partnership will not work.
At the most fundemental aspect, the two cannot mix, but I don't need to tell a "fundie" like you that. Do I?
Conversing with you is like speaking with a toddler that insists on touching the hot stove will not burn him.
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
well you better tell Bush
November 28, 2007 - 22:21 ET by TruthMongerwell you better tell Bush cuz he's BEEN PARTNERING WITH THEM FOR 3 OR 4 YEARS NOW ON THE WOT:)!
...resorting to calling me a toddler, eh? Great argument. I get it - you're punting - pinned you down on your own one-yard line:)
What in the world are you
December 2, 2007 - 00:08 ET by dvdaughtryWhat in the world are you talking about? The subject at hand is not what Bush is doing, its about if a partnership with Islam will work.
You have failed to refute the core difference between Christianity and Islam as the problem of the idea. Islam's reputation is not for anyone to fix but themselves. Islam should be the one to cross the divide.
You keep repeating the same things over and over expecting them to become true. Your a pathetic "fundie" that argues like a child.
I rest my case.
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
yes get some rest - you need it:)
December 2, 2007 - 18:07 ET by TruthMongerBush is partnering with Muslims on the WOT:)
I don't have to refute the core - sho gives a f*ck?! Bush ain't done it either...
We still partner with Muslims on the WOT...
I repeat things over and over to my child when HE DOESN'T GET IT THE FIRST OR THE 50TH TIME AROUND:)
Just like you...
I can wait...
Oh I get what you are
December 3, 2007 - 00:23 ET by dvdaughtryOh I get what you are saying (all 50 times at least), but as I have told you before, its a dumb idea.
And, AGAIN, we weren't talking about what Bush is doing. YOU took the converstaion there, because YOU cannot grasp the concept that at the core, the two faiths cannot "partner".
You have lost just about every shred of credibility you had on here, and you know it.
Do us a favor, while you are waiting, hold your breath.
:)
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
And there we have it:) we
December 3, 2007 - 17:06 ET by TruthMongerAnd there we have it:)
we are talking about partnering with Muslims - which is what Bush is doing with the WOT bud - sorry if it's a bit "beyond" you right now - but I understand...
You wouldn't talk this way right now about Jews or Roman Catholics or Protestants - just Muslims right now - it will pass - either by you changing your mind or your kind just dying off - just like the incredibly disappearing KKK bigots down south...
Losing credibility with you somehow doesn't concern me - but I don't claim to have credibility anyway - I'm just a sinner, just the messenger of God/Jesus/Allah:) - the God of Abraham
RoP Update 11Dec07
December 11, 2007 - 04:09 ET by Sua Sponte 75More on the Religion of Peace, updated 11 Decembe 2007...
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
RoP Updates...
December 20, 2007 - 08:06 ET by Sua Sponte 75More gooey goodness from the religion of peace and tolerance...and a big stack of bodies. I supppose "truth monger" has run out of reasons why we should bend over and smile. Haven't seen him for a while, must be out passing around hugs....
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
just waiting for you guys
December 20, 2007 - 12:41 ET by TruthMongerjust waiting for you guys to grow a brain...
i don't have to keep repeating my brilliance once it has been posted ya know:)
Please don't repeat
December 20, 2007 - 14:47 ET by Free StinkerPlease don't repeat yourself.
Newsbusters. Log on and find out What the heck is so yummy over here!
why don't you make me,
December 20, 2007 - 17:28 ET by TruthMongerwhy don't you make me, booger face:)...
i know you are but what am i?
quit hitting yourself
quit hitting yourself
ma he's on my side of the back seat again
WTF
December 20, 2007 - 17:33 ET by sunandsteelYeah.
What doesn’t kill you, only makes you pissed off. -Children of Bodom
I thought this was good
December 27, 2007 - 01:40 ET by well99It is the 3rd one on left horror stories by Gibson
http://www.foxnews.c...
Aniversary
December 27, 2007 - 01:47 ET by UnsaneI figured this post would be a good place to draw your attention to an anniversary...
Before al-Qaeda and 9/11/01, there were other terrorist atrocities. On 27 December 1985, terrorists hit the airports at Rome and Vienna simultaneously, and rewarded a few travelers not with frequent flier miles but with bullets and grenades. (Looking back, I really don't know what an 11-year-old American girl could do one way or another to these guys, but that mattered not to them, as she was killed all the same.)
Even with recent events like 9/11/01, I keep incidents like these in mind. Or, other events like the embassy bombings in Beirut in 1983 and 1984. Or the Marine barracks getting hit in 1983. Or...
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
RoP New Year
January 1, 2008 - 02:26 ET by Sua Sponte 75Ringing in the New Year (update above), Jihad style with the RoP passing out hugs, cheer, and a big stack of bodies.....but mostly a big stack of bodies.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
RoP Update (10Jan08)
January 10, 2008 - 03:55 ET by Sua Sponte 75More good news from the Religion of Peace, bringing hugs, cuddle toys, tolerance and a big stack of dead bodies.....but mostly dead bodies.....
Response from the "partner with them" front is hugs and butterfly kisses along with more excuses and apologetics...
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
RoP Update...
January 17, 2008 - 01:55 ET by Sua Sponte 75More fuzzy goodness from the RoP, sorry truthie...no teddy bears, bubblegum waterfalls or nazis....
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
I see you've convinced
January 17, 2008 - 13:36 ET by TruthMongerI see you've convinced yourself again, as usual - now maybe you could try the rest of us:)
good luck with that, man - rock on...
By all means...
January 18, 2008 - 02:36 ET by Sua Sponte 75Ignore all of the above and drive on with the incapability to provide a counter to it. Rock on?....heh. Yea, it's a safe bet that nobody else needs convincing, it's apparent your the only one playing the apeasement/aplogetics card. As usual, if you can't argue logically......
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
like i said - i can wait:)
January 18, 2008 - 16:09 ET by TruthMongerlike i said - i can wait:)
Psst...
January 18, 2008 - 16:20 ET by dvdaughtry(whisper) hey truth, I think Sua is waiting for you....
Well, for once, the rich white man is in control. --Montgomery Burns
Crickets...
January 19, 2008 - 01:57 ET by Sua Sponte 75Wait for? More time for no supporting arguements? Wait for another dose of reality? Wait to provide more asshattery? These little one liners do so little for your apeasement/aplogetics movement. I provide proof and logic, and you provide deafening silence. Keep paddling your chickenwire canoe of denial and providing fodder for the rest of us.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
Sua, I'm pretty sure Truth
January 21, 2008 - 10:58 ET by BinxlySua, I'm pretty sure Truth has caught on that no amount of any substantiated argument is gonig to sway you, only further bait your apparent need to be 'right' in this argument. The 'I can't wait' is probably a reference for when we kick the bucket. I think he's correct in an odd, roundabout way. While the majority of what we see of Islam are radicals, there are many, many more that we *don't* see who may indeed still believe non-muslims are damned but that is no different than the many Christians here who also believe if you do not ascribe to certain lifestyle choices, that you too are damned.
To be clear, since many here will willing take something the wrong way in order to give 'their side' more fuel, let me say Im not comparing radical Islam to Christians, but I do see alot of people who are quick to lump Islamic believers who feel anyone not ascribing to their religion as damned as part of these 'radicals.' I think that is foolish and TM brings a good point up that if each religion of the world points fingers at one another as blasphemers unworthy of co-operation in the world, let alone possible amicable relations, then those who feel that way are only breaching the divide further, and in turn, are now part of the problem themselves.
That said though, give TM a break. He's not running, he just knows its foolish to waste his time and effort on someone who refuses to be convinced to see things his way. That doesn't make you wrong, or make him right, he just realizes the best situation is an agreement to disagree. Its just childish to continue to berate him after the fact. It speaks, to me at least, that you've lost any interest in the actual debate and are now more interested in simply exercising the idea that you are correct and he is incorrect. Its fine if you feel that way, but it is merely your opinion. If you feel you've 'won' because he's not arguing anymore than why waste the time here to bait and gloat? Go thorw yourself a party! :)
(I promise that was a good spirited barb, I just think too often people care about being 'right' than they do about learning anything about others views during debate.
Re-read Binxly
January 22, 2008 - 04:32 ET by Sua Sponte 75You may want to re-read the opening of the thread.
"While the majority of what we see of Islam are radicals, there are many, many more that we *don't* see who may indeed still believe non-muslims are damned but that is no different than the many Christians here who also believe if you do not ascribe to certain lifestyle choices, that you too are damned".
It's not a matter of wether the belief is true, liked, or disliked. It's a matter of if you don't believe, you will or by the sword. As noted in the opening of the thread, there is a difference between preaching your religion, preaching it at the end of a sword and furthering your religion based on conversion by violence and then claiming to be the tolerant religion of peace!
"Its just childish to continue to berate him after the fact. It speaks, to me at least, that you've lost any interest in the actual debate and are now more interested in simply exercising the idea that you are correct and he is incorrect".
I'm sorry, didn't realize providing proof was berating someone or childish....Showing proof is not an exercise of ideas, as duly noted many times above...I let the stack of dead bodies do the talking....
I've note his "views", they are nothing but apologetics and apeasement at every level. I don't mind a debate, but when you can't provide any, any backing to your side of a debate execpt for hack responses that have absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand, that pretty much says it all.
I believe you've missed the whole point of the thread and the issue. Don't tell me you're the most tolerant, peaceful religion on the planet and produce nothing but a stack of bodies in your quest...
Also odd is that someone calls themself a truth-seeker or monger, yet cowers when it is presented....
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
Yea, but I more or less
January 22, 2008 - 10:16 ET by BinxlyYea, but I more or less think he's refering to reaching out to the Muslims who aren't spreading it by the sword. The ones that, like you mentioned, are like many Christians in their belief that non-christians are damned, yet do not use violence nor coercion to advance their beliefs.
I can agree that sometimes TM comes from left field with certain things, but he is correct in acknowledging that if we don't find *some* common ground and try to heal and create an amicable relationship with the more moderate Muslim community, then we are only further bridging the divide, and giving more reason and fuel for the case of radicals trying to convert moderates to their viewpoint. I agree, you can just walk up to a suicide bomber and expect a hug will make them put down the bomb as well as their Jihad. I also hate that the majorty of the media would like to quietly ignore the problem of radical Islam and its danger to us as Americans and Israelis as well. However, I was just saying I think TM is being misunderstood and is not running from the debate, rather just holding his words since his suggestion of 'reaching out' to moderate Muslims is being read as an appeasement toward radical Islam.
Still...
January 22, 2008 - 10:40 ET by Sua Sponte 75His approach is apeasement and apologetics, plain and simple.
"but he is correct in acknowledging that if we don't find *some* common ground and try to heal and create an amicable relationship with the more moderate Muslim community"
If you've read a news article in the last eight years then you would see not only individuals, but countries falling all over themselves to find "common ground". Appealing and appeasement obviously has not worked over the past eight years, or for the past six hundred (as again noted above).
"I think TM is being misunderstood and is not running from the debate, rather just holding his words since his suggestion of 'reaching out' to moderate Muslims is being read as an appeasement toward radical Islam".
I know he's not running because there is no running from the facts. Herein lies the problem, where oh where are all these "moderate" muslims standing up and taking account? I'm willing to bet they are not in mostly Arabic countries. We are expected to appease and be PC in a give and take, however it is undeniable that it is a mostly take situation on their part. How much more reaching out is needed and why do we need to reach out to someone whom is not under attack by us?
"then we are only further bridging the divide, and giving more reason and fuel for the case of radicals trying to convert moderates to their viewpoint".
The divide is the killing of innocent individuals, the furtherance of religion by the sword, so how exactly are we fueling any fires by not coping out and standing up? Not accepting the atrocities does not create more terrorists.
Bottom line is the misnomer that this is the "religion of peace" and it is obvious no length of "reaching out" is going to satisfy until complete conversion and Islamic law is initiated.
"You're either part of the solution or part of the problem"
you're really throwing
January 22, 2008 - 14:07 ET by TruthMongeryou're really throwing punches now man - can't make "appeasement" stick on me as I've fully supported kicking Hussein's ass out o