Some months ago, Jer took me to task for what he thought was a caustic remark on my part regarding what I think of ANYONE who will cast a vote for either of the Leftist candidates the Democrats have offered us this November 4 (what a fitting date upon which to hold this election, no?). So, I decided to break down what I thought of taxation philosophically speaking. Maybe these thoughts will mesh with your own. Maybe not. Jer, I hope you take the time to read this.
It isn't my best written work, but it's what I got, and I'll be happy to elaborate further upon request. At the very least, it's a break from the whacked-out conspiracy theories and populism that infests these forums. Enjoy!
“Whoever casts a vote for Obama or Clinton is nothing more than a common thief.” - Unsane
I will admit that the above statement is caustic to most observers and readers. After all, who would equate the act of voting with larceny? But it is a cold, bitter truth.
To understand why, it is necessary to look within and ask the fundamental question: “What is taxation? Why is it done?” To me, these questions have very simple answers: they fund government operations for such things as provided for in the Constitution and in laws beholden by said document. Thus, they may suck, but they should be made as small and painless as possible. It is a simple philosophy.
Unfortunately, there are too many people out there who look to taxation to perform all sorts of miracles: encourage/discourage behavior, encourage/discourage the deployment of capital, and as a way to get even with particular groups of people for wrongs, real or perceived.
The way I see it, whether or not you are offended by the above remark depends largely on how you look at taxation. If you see it simply as a means to fund government operations, you won’t be offended, most likely. However, if you see taxation as a wonderful tool to exact revenge, punish people and control people’s behaviors, you WILL be offended by the comment.
Both named candidates in that comment have made it plain that they view the tax code as a way to punish those is society whose crime is to innovate, to invent, or to simply have passion for what they do. We call those people successful. Productive. And as a result, they become rich. Wealthy. How DARE anyone do that!
To top this, the way the tax code is currently written, thievery is being conducted constantly by the government. How? Well, The Economist from 15 April 2006 noted that the bottom 40% of wage earners in the United States pay a whopping 0.06 of the overall federal tax burden. The top 60% of wage earners – the rich – pay 99.94%. The 60% of the population that are the ants get to subsidize the 40% who are lazy grasshoppers.
Now, to begin with, I am at a loss to rationalize to myself or to anyone else how this can possibly be considered “fair” or “equitable”. But just to make the situation more irksome, we have two candidates who believe that those 60% are somehow not doing enough? How can the poor be getting screwed when they pay 0.06 of the overall federal tax burden?
And there are those who inhabit these boards who wonder why I dare use the words “steal” and “theft” to describe this situation?
Back in 1996 (my first Presidential election; I couldn’t wait to participate in them), I became a huge fan and eventual supporter of Steve Forbes. The “flat tax” concept I found most intriguing. A tax that hit everyone at 17% regardless of income? A tax code that I could easily carry around in my head? A tax code so simple that the IRS could be pruned down to about 100 people in the DC area? A tax code so simple that those caught dodging taxes could only be considered to be complete idiots? Oh, and as I recall, to satisfy the bleeding hearts among us, that rate of taxation began at $36,000 – allowing for the poorest among us to scrape together a bit of cash to survive on before worrying about paying Uncle Sam. I liked the idea then and still do for its simplicity and its elegance.
The tax code, quite simply, should be used to fund the activities of government: nothing more, nothing less. The government is not a charity, nor is it to be used as a bully for some groups of people to “get even” with others.














Comments Policy
Hey Unsane, I am off the
June 7, 2008 - 09:49 ET by WhichWingHey Unsane, I am off the Fair Tax kool-aid and onboard with you and the flat tax (or no income tax, better yet), but I gotta ask, how is McCain any better or different? Neither party is offering us any alternatives, and I haven't heard a candidate talk about the flat tax since Ross Perot.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
Are you kidding? New tax ideas abound!!
June 7, 2008 - 10:06 ET by sarcasmoMcCain's offering a gasoline tax holiday coincidentally timed for election season! And it's not pandering!! But best of all, it has a "sunset" provision, like all tax cuts should (but Heaven forbid sunset provisions on, say, a political speech restricting law of questionable Constitutionality!)!!! ;)
In the meantime, McCain's carefully ignoring an excellent, conservative idea, apparently because of the identity of the Republican who originally thought it up. The ideal poetic justice -- I know, it's not likely to happen -- would be if Barak Obama lifted the excellent conservative idea first. I wonder what these professional politicians have against service industry employees who must work hard to get tips? They sure all talk a great "but I like hardworking, poor people!" game...
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Good to see you again buddy,
June 7, 2008 - 18:18 ET by WhichWingGood to see you again buddy, thanks for pointing out what I had missed.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
Sure
June 7, 2008 - 18:25 ET by sarcasmoWhat everyone's STILL missing is that we could get rid of the personal income tax entirely AND REPLACE IT WITH NOTHING if only we'd drop spending levels back to the "fiscally conservative" (HA! I spent most of my time back then complaining about how big government was getting -- see how dumb I was?) last year that Bill Clinton was President. People don't seem to want to think about the idea of life without a Form 1040 in it.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Huckabee
June 7, 2008 - 17:06 ET by Jerry MackWinger: Huckabee talked about it and was in favor.
The Huck was all about the
June 7, 2008 - 18:16 ET by WhichWingThe Huck was all about the 'Fair' tax, not flat tax.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
Winger
June 7, 2008 - 18:24 ET by Jerry MackYou are correct and I was wrong.
No worries Jerry, there is a
June 7, 2008 - 20:40 ET by WhichWingNo worries Jerry, there is a first time for everything! :)
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
Unsane 2012!
June 8, 2008 - 03:18 ET by Unsane(shrugs) Unsane is for the Flat Tax and will run in 2012. :-)
I am voting for McCain strictly for foreign policy reasons. He is for more of the same and that sucks. Note that I voted for Steve Forbes in 1996 and 2000 because of his flat tax proposals. But in politics, you simply can't get everything you want...
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Is Forbes where you got 17%,
June 8, 2008 - 04:52 ET by WhichWingIs Forbes where you got 17%, or where did that come from? Wasn't Perot talking 10%?
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
Nah, that's what the church wants.
June 8, 2008 - 06:19 ET by sarcasmoMr. Perot was in favor of the income tax going up to 33%, along with yearly 10 cent increases in gasoline taxes. A mere tithe would have been disrespectful to a government holding itself above God Almighty. In my lifetime the Democrats, Republicans, and Perotians have never advocated anything like that low a level of taxation.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Thanks for the link, I was a
June 8, 2008 - 06:42 ET by WhichWingThanks for the link, I was a few percentage points off on that one, eh?
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
Well, Perot's not my main point.
June 8, 2008 - 07:23 ET by sarcasmoWhat continually gets to me is how those who wear their Christian religion on their sleeves (if not their chests) as a badge of political/moral honor suddenly go dead-silent when I start talkin' about income tax-rates vs tithes and the size of government. It's like a miracle...Or something...
Supposedly, the original income tax (which was only going to apply to "the rich" back then) debate had some suggesting a provision that income taxes should never exceed 10%, but this wasn't in the final draft. It was believed that US politicians would never had the gall to place themselves above the Creator of All Things...
Anyway, it's one of my problems with most religions -- they quickly start worshipping the state instead of God whenever they get a chance, but they'll never admit it when logically cornered on a "y'all seem to worship the state" issue. Instead, people get very, very angry with me for making them think about something they would rather not think about.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
unsane--
June 7, 2008 - 10:04 ET by misterbillI have been for both the Fair Tax and the flat tax. Either is better than the current system. After loooonnnnggg review, I have come to favor the flat tax. The complexity of the Fair Tax, (cutting checks, double taxation issues, etc.) are strongly opposed by many. When I read their reasons, I cannot help but agree.
The simplicity of the flat tax, the floor of $36,000 matched against median salaries in America today, seems to be the "fair" tax to me.
(Not to mention the savings in government payroll by the reduction in the Sheriff of Nottingham's tax collectors.)
P.S> Further, I agree with the fact that taxes today are used for more reasons than to fund the government. All the side issues will be moot with a flat tax. The question---won't those in office, who, in my opinion. seem to know and understand less than most on this site, perceive it as a threat to their power and fight it????
Flat tax
June 8, 2008 - 03:14 ET by UnsaneWhen one has to call their very proposal "Fair", to me that is a serious red flag. You'll never convince me that charging me 30-31% in sales taxes (once I factor in state sales taxes, and trust me they are not going away!) is a good idea. Nor is taking a knife to the heart of the economy - consumer spending - a good idea either.
I first heard the flat tax proposal espoused by Steve Forbes in 1996. I loved the idea so much I voted for him for President twice! Eastern European nations are adopting the idea left and right, much to their benefit from what I have seen.
(Where the hell is Jer???)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Tax code
June 7, 2008 - 17:01 ET by Jerry MackBefore anything can be done to change the tax code several things must be excepted and understood by a majority of the people that vote.
1.The governments role is not to create jobs by raising taxes.
2. Everyone that is elected or works for a city, county, state or federal government has their salary, benefits and retirement paid for by tax payers. It is no longer surprising to me when people tell me that they never thought of this.
3. Nothing that the government provides is free. Someone had to pay for it.
Note: Try asking this question if you want to test someones knowledge of our government: "Where does the government get its' money?"
From the China and the
June 7, 2008 - 20:41 ET by WhichWingFrom China and the printing press??
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
Stupid comments
June 8, 2008 - 03:10 ET by UnsaneUnfortunately for you, China, whose economy (last I saw) had a GDP of about $300 BILLION, is NOT in the position to loan money to a nation whose GDP is in the TRILLIONS.
I don't see you whining about Japan, who has far more in Treasuries than does China.
As for the printing press crack: you'll have to learn to accept modernity at some point. Just because WE turn reactionary and elect to go back to the 1500s doesn't mean the rest of the world is going to tag happily along.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
But we might print ourselves
June 8, 2008 - 04:55 ET by WhichWingBut we might print ourselves right out of business, isn't that a valid concern? We can only devalue our currency for so long, one day it will no longer be accepted.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
You're speaking to an "expert" on history
June 8, 2008 - 06:08 ET by sarcasmoWho has somehow managed to sound totally clueless WRT the history of inflation. Pity those inconvenient Chinese don't seem to agree, eh?
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
You are wasting your time
June 8, 2008 - 06:40 ET by WhichWingYou are wasting your time trying to share links with the all knowing one, he/she will not click on any link he/she did not create herself.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
That's "source evaluation"
June 8, 2008 - 07:03 ET by sarcasmoTranslation: "When a source refutes, say it's bad, and as a bonus, claim the refuter won't think for himself because, after all, it's impossible to refute the all knowing one." It's not workin' too well lately... ;)
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
What source evaluation really is
June 8, 2008 - 12:35 ET by UnsaneClearly you never took a Historical Methods course. I have. Allow Prof. Unsane to enlighten you via a free education.
"Source evaluation" is not what you said it is. What "source evaluation" is, is a method of seeing where the source is coming from. Whether it is biased or unbiased. How objective the source is, does the source have anything to gain in any way, when was the source composed, how is the source effected by X, Y, and Z, who funds the source, etc etc etc.
This is easily done with most printed material. This is why that in my entire tour in academia, I used TWO Internet sources out of the hundreds I pulled for various papers, analyses and theses, and even then, only after having the sources vetted through the instructor. That is why when I head back, my usage of the Internet will be extremely limited. (I like being taken seriously in academia.) The Internet lies beyond most conventional, easy ways to conduct source evaluation. It really isn't remotely my fault that you refuse to understand, and simultaneously constantly urinate on the concept.
With your approach to source evaluation, I cringe at the thought of you writing...well, anything...like an article, or a book, or God help us all - a biography.
Hence that during my entire time on NB I have only clicked on 10 links, IF THAT. I won't even check out most of RtS's for his Shrub Reports, and I LIKE his Shrub Reports (especially after his h/t to me this past 19 April).
Besides, you being THE SUPREME EXPERT on everything, and you knowing everything, it really can't be that hard to ask you to compose a thought or two in your very own words. Right?
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
In your case, oh all-knowing one
June 9, 2008 - 03:53 ET by sarcasmoMy definition fits. All too well.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Except
June 9, 2008 - 04:05 ET by UnsaneExcept that it doesn't. Try your definition in academia. Then prepared to get laughed right back out onto the street.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
My definition, oh all-knowing one
June 9, 2008 - 04:19 ET by sarcasmoApplies only to you, right here.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Except that it doesn't apply
June 9, 2008 - 04:22 ET by UnsanePlease keep beating your head into a wall over it. It does not apply to me, ever. I'll stick with the universally accepted version I laid out for you. As some NB poster keeps saying over and over, "Reading is fundamental."
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
It applies to you only too well
June 19, 2008 - 03:50 ET by sarcasmoAs we've seen right here. You don't like it when I refute you. Get used to it, I'm not going away, and you're not often right.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Grow up and stop blaming me for your shortcomings
June 19, 2008 - 04:23 ET by UnsaneActually, no. It really isn't my fault, as you so wish it to be, that you refuse to conduct basic source evaluation. And as I cannot evaluate the vast majority of your links, I'm not clicking them. As you so often like to say: "Deal with it." I haven't the time or inclination to explain to you again why I do not view something as "being on the Internet" as enough reason for me to read something and take it at face value.
On the rare occasion you DO post something I can evaluate, I check it. Reason comes to mind, for at least I can physically grab my own copy at a bookstore.
But instead of that childish explanation you put up (not too surprising considering your extreme immaturity), the academic standard does apply and always will. If you flapped your lips with that crap in academia, you'd be tossed out onto the street. That's enough consolation for me.
And as if I am scared of you by crowing "get used to it, I'm not going away". You may believe yourself able to bully everyone into agreeing with you, but unfortunately for you I think for myself. And as for "you're not often right" crap: you wonder why I have repeatedly dubbed you THE SUPREME EXPERT on everything.
Guess what? So long as NB will have me, I'm not going anywhere either, and you simply will have to deal with me like a good boy. And you are less often right as you have deluded yourself into thinking. A LOT less, in fact.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
'And if you'll look above
June 19, 2008 - 07:25 ET by WhichWing'And if you'll look above folks, you'll see what we call hypocrisy.'
Huh?
June 19, 2008 - 20:20 ET by UnsaneHow?
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
This line: "You may
June 20, 2008 - 06:57 ET by WhichWingThis line:
"You may believe yourself able to bully everyone into agreeing with you, but unfortunately for you I think for myself."
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
You still haven't answered this question
June 20, 2008 - 07:12 ET by UnsaneAnd this is hypocritical...how?
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Ask misterbill
June 20, 2008 - 07:27 ET by sarcasmoOh yeah...
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
I repeat myself
June 20, 2008 - 07:32 ET by UnsaneAgain, how is this hypocritical?
STILL not answering the question.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Let's just say it involves a humorous complete lack of
June 20, 2008 - 07:48 ET by sarcasmoSelf-awareness, and leave it at that.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Just say you can't answer a question and be done with it
June 21, 2008 - 07:50 ET by UnsaneLet's just say you can't answer a question, so you post something idiotic to back out of it, instead of reverting to silence as is your normal modus operandi.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Why do you drag this on?
June 21, 2008 - 08:18 ET by WhichWingWhy do you drag this on? You knew what I meant, and you knew what Sarcasmo meant. But here you go... What I quoted from your post describes quite well how you conduct yourself in most discussions. And there is where the hypocrisy lies.
Again
June 22, 2008 - 09:26 ET by UnsaneI'm not dragging this on...you are by doing what you and your paramour routinely do: not answering questions.
Again, how is this hypocrisy?
I may as well be addressing elementary schoolchildren...
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
The only way you should be
June 23, 2008 - 18:20 ET by WhichWingThe only way you should be addressing elementary schoolchildren is as their classmate. You asked where the hypocrisy was, and I showed it to you. Now go to recess.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
You are only getting weaker, if that's possible
June 24, 2008 - 20:40 ET by UnsaneRest assured, sweetie, that if I am in elementary school, you aren't even a gleam in the mailman's eye. Now, answer the question. Posting the comment I made doesn't cut it. How is that hypocrisy?
All your childish post shows me is that YOU HAVE NOTHING, and nor does your paramour, or else you would have long ago just answered a very basic, simple question.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
You are only getting weaker
June 24, 2008 - 20:42 ET by UnsaneSo you admit you have nothing. Your childish post shows me you have absolutely nothing, as does your paramour. Cutting and pasting what I said doesn't cut it. How it that hypocrisy?
If I am in elementary school, than you aren't even a gleam in the mailman's eye.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
learning
June 8, 2008 - 12:42 ET by UnsaneYou are wasting your time trying to share links with the all knowing one The most insulting thing you can do is to confuse me with Sarcasmo as you have done here.
he/she will not click on any link he/she did not create herself. You are slowly learning!
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
History cluelessness
June 8, 2008 - 12:25 ET by UnsaneAs much as you are clueless as to the history of gold, which has itself gotten hit by inflation over the centuries in various places?
Please identify for me a currency that has never, ever, fluctuated in value (and gold is not it, so allow me to save you the trouble).
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
None exists, and I never claimed one did.
June 9, 2008 - 03:55 ET by sarcasmoBut gold beats the living snot out of all the others, like it or not.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Aurum
June 9, 2008 - 04:10 ET by UnsaneNow we are getting somewhere.
Burton Malkiel put it best in a chart in his book A Random Walk Down Wall Street. Gold prices are impossible to predict. It is as prone to inflation and other issues as much as any other currency.
If it wasn't (or was found to be the world's perfect currency), I'd be stripping the insulation from my speaker wires as we speak.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Showing just how "well"
June 9, 2008 - 04:23 ET by sarcasmoYou "know" the history of fiat "money."
Hint: No fiat currency in history has ever had the value & staying power of gold. No episode of gold inflation, such as what happened when the Spanish brought lots of it back to Europe, comes CLOSE to what we've seen with the US dollar once it was set adrift from its Constitutional moorings, first by FDR & then once-and-for-all by Tricky Dick.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Contradictions collapse
June 11, 2008 - 16:43 ET by UnsaneShow me where in the Constitution where a gold standard is mandated.
And it is amusing to me that you cry about the dollar "set adrift from its Constitutional moorings", when you throw a fit whan I point out that the coinage of money is a power granted to Congress explicitly in Article I.
All of which tells me that you really don't know what you want in terms of money other than to constantly bitch about it no matter what happens.
And, like it or not, ALL currency, no matter what - fluctuates in value. ALL currency does. Once again, if gold were the be-all and end-all of all currency, I'd turn off my computer and run off to strip my speaker wires of their insulation.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Nope, again.
June 17, 2008 - 08:25 ET by sarcasmoCluelessness collapses. Try Article 1 Section 10, oh great and all knowing history "expert."
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
MY cluelessness?
June 18, 2008 - 03:25 ET by UnsaneAnd again I have pointed out to you that in that same Article, that the power to coin money and to regulate the value thereof lies with Congress. Whenever I have done that, you throw an absolute fit.
It's not my fault you selectively read. Again, I don't think you really know what you want in terms of money other than to bitch about it endlessly no matter what happens.
Worry about your own cluelessness and contradictions before worrying about mine.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Dodge all you want
June 18, 2008 - 03:30 ET by sarcasmoYou asked for where in the Constitution it said that, and you got it, so you whined once you got what you wanted. Deal with it, everyone saw YOUR cluelessness, and your usual resort to ad hominem won't work again because I have 0 respect for the tactic, as I've repeatedly shown you.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Where are the words "gold standard"???
June 19, 2008 - 03:45 ET by UnsaneShow me where in the United States Constitution the words "gold standard" appear, and show me where one is mandated. Your usual whining about ad hominem attacks is laughable as usual since you deal them out like they are going out of style. (You respect and love the tactic 100%, so long as you aren't on the receiving end.) As usual with you, contradictions collapse, and everyone here saw THAT. As well, they are seeing you address a challenge extremely poorly.
And there is absolutely NOTHING ad hominem about nasty truths:
1) You THROW A FIT whenever it is pointed out to you that Congress is granted the power "to coin money and to regulate the value thereof" in Article I.
2) You only want to bitch, whine, scream and moan about money, no matter what. No matter what reform takes place, you will not be happy. (If not true, well, that's the impression you give, and that's your problem, not mine. Writing is fundamental as well.)
To quote your pre-teen scream: "Deal with it."
3) Can you tell me what this has to do with tax policy???
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
You asked where it was mentioned in the Constitution
June 19, 2008 - 03:49 ET by sarcasmoAnd I told you, so you whined. Now you whine again, and expect respect? Deal with what you've got, oh clueless "historian." You got schooled. Again.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Pumping up your ego, I see
June 19, 2008 - 04:12 ET by UnsaneYou have yet to school me. Where do the words "gold standard", that exact phrase, appear in the U.S. Constitution?
ANY disagreement with Sarcasmo, no mater how slight = "whining".
By the way, what does this have to do with taxation?
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Straw man -- defeated
June 19, 2008 - 04:44 ET by sarcasmoSince I never said that those words appeared in that form, I don't need to do anything more than what I've already done, which is mock you when you need it. As for your whining, I call 'em like I see 'em when you whine, just like I make fun of your inability to admit you're wrong while trying to cloak yourself in false academic historian rigor. You've been schooled here. Deal with it.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
You lose and don't even know it
June 19, 2008 - 20:24 ET by UnsaneFunny. Those who most loudly proclaimed that they have schooled someone are those that have miserably failed in their attempt to do so.
As you cannot show me where the words "gold standard" appear in the Constitution, you have admitted defeat. Your knowledge of the Constitution sucks, and like it or not, I am more academically qualified than you are in the realm of history. As some immature poster, who, much like a teenager, is ALWAYS right, likes to say: "Deal with it."
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
C'mon sarc, don't you want
June 19, 2008 - 20:34 ET by Clear thinkerC'mon sarc, don't you want the last word?
45 Communist Goals for America http://www.nationmakers.com/com_goals.htm
The sad truth
June 8, 2008 - 12:47 ET by UnsaneAs long as the U.S. dollar represents one's ticket to the world's largest, most dynamic, and most advanced economy, ALL is good. And right now it isn't the printing of the currency that's the issue.
But really, I am talking to someone who believe that the currency is to be the store of value, NOT silly things like savings and investments as has been the case for about 6000 years of civilization.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Now that we have gone from
June 8, 2008 - 18:50 ET by WhichWingNow that we have gone from being a creditor nation to a debtor nation, do you want to change your position?
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
Non sequitor
June 8, 2008 - 18:52 ET by Free StinkerNon sequitor
"store of value...like
June 8, 2008 - 20:52 ET by WhichWing"store of value...like savings and investments as has been the case for about 6000 years of civilization."
A $9 trillion national debt doesn't fit this mold very well.
The main point Unsane is trying to avoid is the devaluation of our currency and the impact it has on our economy, not to mention the rest of the world. Anyone else notice the cost of oil double in the last year? Don't you remember $27 a barrel less then 8 years ago? We've seen gold go from $250 to over $1,000 and settle around $900 in less than a decade. This all has more to do with the value of the dollar than anything else. This is the point I was trying to make, and Unsane was trying to avoid.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw
It's all Cheney's fault !
June 8, 2008 - 20:58 ET by Free StinkerYou got me.
This country has never had debt before and gold has never been valuable before.
It's all Cheney's fault !
/Sarcasm Off
Not exactly
June 9, 2008 - 04:00 ET by sarcasmoThe country has never had debt like this before. Also, a 1980 dollar is so much less inflated than a 2008 dollar that gold would need to go well over $2000 in today's dollars to reach an inflation adjusted price of $800 in 1980 dollars, so gold effectively cost substantially more back then.
It's all obese government's fault (too much spending) and Cheney's only a tiny part of that. And here's a short banking history page control-freaks will hate. Or not-click-on, because it involves critical thinking along with my usual brand of politically-incorrect non-pop history...
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Pay attention
June 9, 2008 - 03:29 ET by UnsaneYou don't read very well. Yes, PART of the reason those commodities have taken off in price is due to weakness in the dollar. But if you are going to tell me that the ONLY reason the commodities' prices have gone up, or even MOST...well, you simply have less of an understanding of economics than I previously thought (think supply and demand as more players enter the market).
The dollar was, and still is, the world's pre-eminent currency in large part because it is THE premier ticket to the world's largest, most dynamic, most advanced economy. The euro may be worth more at the moment, but the countries in the euro zone are all Going Absolutely Nowhere. No dynamism, no growth, zip, zero, nada...not even demographically. And the euro has serious problems of its own. One of the biggest is that it is making it more inviting to export jobs to places like...the United States.
And this is all really neat but I fail to see what this has remotely to do with my philosophy on taxation.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Why?
June 9, 2008 - 03:22 ET by UnsaneNo.
I would, if on 14 September 1985 we suddenly stopped being a creative, ruthlessly efficient, world-beating economy...but that didn't happen. The government may be stuck on stupid, but the American people are what make the country work.
Did you know that Japan has a heavier national debt as a percentage of its GDP than does the United States? In fact, their national debt is the worst anywhere.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Since no one else has taken
June 17, 2008 - 01:39 ET by cleverpigSince no one else has taken up the meat of the argument here, I'll give it a a shot.
No one intends the current tax system as a punishment for successful people-- well, I suppose I shouldn't say "no one," but that is not the underlying philosophy.
The reason it is considered fair to tax wealthier income brackets at a higher percentage is because as our income increases, a lower and lower percentage of it is required to live comfortably.
If I make $50,000 a year and I am trying to raise a family, a 17% tax will be more difficult for me to absorb than it will be for someone making $150,000 a year and trying to raise a family. The current tax system asks the wealthier bracket to pay a higher amount simply because they can.
Now it is definitely true that that means as you income goes up, taxes have a larger and larger negative effect on your ability to achieve a higher standard of living. That certainly seems like punishment if you are inclined to assume the worst intentions of your fellow citizens, but I don't believe that is the reason most people support a graduated tax system.
The other perspective is this--given that a certain amount of money is required to run the government and supply essential services (and setting aside for now the fact that we can affect what that is... no matter how fiscally prudent we are there will be an amount of money at the end that the government needs to rise) any decrease in the pecentage paid by the rich will mean an increase in the percentage paid by he poor. And while it may be frustrating to be the one footing the burden, no one's children are going to go hungry or miss out on college when you raise taxes a percent or two on the millionaires. That can't be said for the lower 40% of wage earners.
So that's the philosophical choice we've made, that it is better to protect the basic wellbeing of those who are struggling than to allow the successful to reach the highest heights. Obviously many people think this is the wrong choice. I think the difference is rooted in the different ways people view success or failure in a free market-- if you are inclined to view financial failure as necessarily the result of personal failure-- laziness, stupidity, etc, then it's easy to see why you wouldn't feel obliged to give poor people a break. Liberals tend to think that people who are struggling can beneft from assistance, and so our stance on taxes makes sense from that perspective.
The idea that liberals want to punish rich people is the easy answer-- overly simplistic and assuming the worst about people who disagree with you. The truth is a little more nuanced.
»→ Overly simplistic?
June 17, 2008 - 01:49 ET by Cool ArrowSo if the tax rate is raised by 10% on people who make more than $250,000, it won't affect me sitting in the middle class?
What if the rate s raised to 70% of their income? How about 95%? What if I truly don't care that they are taxed at 95% of their income? You're saying their diminished take home pay won't affect me?
What if I've hired a buch of Illegals to build bass boats for those Americans who can afford them?
You want to starve Illegals, don't you? That's a pretty hateful attitude.
I submit you are being simplistic.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Lol Cool
June 17, 2008 - 02:05 ET by Dee Bunksimplistic indeed! I was posting below at the same time. I like yours better.
Your position isn't nuanced CP
June 17, 2008 - 02:01 ET by Dee BunkYou just don't understand economics. You assume that taxes and wealth are a zero sum games and that if someone makes more that causes others to make less and if someone is taxed less that others will be taxed more. It doesn't work that way.
When taxes are lower, more people of all income levels comply. Bush lowered taxes on EVERYONE, not just the rich like liberals like to claim. And even with the supposedly "bad" economy (that liberals kept trying to convince everyone of for seven years), the tax receipts into the Government increased. Yes they INCREASED after the ACCROSS THE BOARD tax cuts.
You assume we want to punish the poor and it's the opposite. Lowering taxes on the wealthy also helps the poor because it helps the economy. When wealthy people don't have to give their money to the government they usually use it in much better ways than the government would. They create more wealth and more jobs. That's how it works. The government wastes much more money then people or businesses do.
We understand the liberal position - it's not nuanced, it's just wrong. Liberals don't understand ours.
I get your point, but
June 19, 2008 - 01:27 ET by cleverpigI get your point, but remember that we have a certain amount of money that someone has to pay to keep the government running. So the question is, do rich people make more wealth when you let them keep their money than poor people?
I would argue not if you think of the economy as being driven by need and consumption. If I make 5 million dollars a year and you let me keep an extra few hundred thousand dollars, I may or may not decide to stimulate the economy by buying a new boat.
However, if I live at a subsistence level of income and the government gives me back some of my money, I think it is a better bet that I will use that money to buy things that I need, thus creating jobs, etc.
Surprises
June 19, 2008 - 04:08 ET by UnsaneYou might be surprised by how a wealthy person stimulates the economy by splurging on themselves. One of the biggest victims of the 1990 budget deal, which featured a luxury tax to soak those evil rich people, resulted in wallets slamming shut. The rich weren't buying the luxury goods subject to that punitive tax, so who lost out? Not the rich!
Try: the salespeople not making commissions, those lower and middle class folks no longer making yachts (they don't make themselves no matter how much money is spent), the jewelry stores not selling watches and other items...
Congratulations! In order to punish and screw the rich, the Leftists only succeeded in screwing those they purport to speak for!!! (George Will had a GREAT article on this some years ago.) And look: those folks who were paying taxes every year weren't anymore, because they weren't working!!!
However, if I live at a subsistence level of income and the government gives me back some of my money, I think it is a better bet that I will use that money to buy things that I need, thus creating jobs, etc. Then you really don't understand most poor people in this country. Most poor in this country are simply because they can't manage money worth a damn. I will grant that there are those who are genuinely destitute, but the far reaching majority of them need to be convinced that instead of buying the new third generation iPhone, that if they set aside 20% of their paychecks on a consistent basis, they would join the ranks of the middle class, both materially and wealth-wise in no time. Of course, another thing that hurts them are do-gooders like yourself who think we should pay the poor to BE poor! (I submit, with a h/t to Milton Friedman, that if we stopped subsidizing bad behavior, our poorest citizens might be forced to make better decisions with their incomes: which will only help THEM and society in the long run.)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
I agree with everything Unsane said to CP but would like to add
June 19, 2008 - 08:47 ET by Dee Bunkthat what CP proposes (giving back poor people stimulates the economy more because they will spend it all) Is only effective for the short term. CP should be thrilled with the Bush Rebate plan if that is her theory, but I'd bet she's not.
Giving poor people money on a widespread scale can give a temporary boost but only long term reasonable tax rates (for all people) can help long term. Consumption is not the whole picture, you need investment in businesses and new products and services which can only come from wealthy people. If every new dollar they make is taxed too high then they have a lot less incentive to make it and/or more incentive to shelter it.
The bottom line is, even if you can't understand it, lower taxes brings in more tax revenue. It's a fact. The only time you can raise taxes without disastrous consequences is during a huge booming economy. You will still take in less money in the long run because people will figure out how to shelter their income (legally or not). They also won't take the risks they would have because they are even riskier with higher tax rates.
You know what they say about assuming, cleverpig?
June 17, 2008 - 08:15 ET by UnsaneIf I make $50,000 a year and I am trying to raise a family, a 17% tax will be more difficult for me to absorb than it will be for someone making $150,000 a year and trying to raise a family. And you know this...HOW? For instance, I'd imagine that $150K a year goes a lot less further in San Francisco or New York than in San Antonio or Houston.
This is a small part of the problem with you Leftists. You look at numbers and just ass