I was reading the Open Thread forum and Dee Bunk has inspired me to write this thread. I wish there were more conservatives like her and Candance.
I like the fact conservatives want to protect our country from people that want to destroy us. Unlike liberals, conseratives do not want to coddle terrorists and will do what it takes to make this great country safe and defend our Freedom.
Freedom however is the key word. Many conservatives want to take away our rights that do nobody any harm except for ourselves.
ie
: civil unions
: euthanasia
: adult entertainment
: To a point drug use
: prostitution
When I have voiced my opinions, I have heard many different comments. No one would care if you stuck a gun in your own mouth shawn, are you gay shawn? Or my personal favorite, this shawn guy is obessed with porn.
I am not obessed with porn, I am obsessed with free speech even when it has to do with things I do not agree with. There was a huge commotion about a month back about a writer on NB going on another site trashing somebodys religion. I do not agree with what that writer said, but I will crawl on broken glass for that writers point of view to be heard.
Another poster has stated a point that all laws are based on some sort of morality and I agree with that to point but one persons morality might be different that another persons. The supreme court ruled many years ago that apparently it is moral to destry a fetus in a womans womb. Does everybody agree with that?
If one wants to drink, smoke or watch provocative tv or decide to end ones life with dignity, I do not believe it is up to anybody else to dictate to that individual what he/she cannot do.
Now before someone brings up the liberals, the fairness doctrine or derail this thread talking about the evil Democrats. This is not about the Democrats, this is about individual freedom.






















Editor at Large
Comments Policy
dee bunk
Sat, 01/19/2008 - 12:46 ET by shawn228I really like your point of view on many things. If there was a republian candidate that thought more along the lines as you, they would have my vote in second.
Romney time machine
Shawn - there are a lot of conservatives like me
Sat, 01/19/2008 - 13:03 ET by Dee BunkFred Thompson is and most of the people on Newsbusters are with the exception of my immigration position which is more like President Bush's.
Fred Thompson gets a little gruff sometimes and so do a lot of people on here (including myself) but I have no doubt that he is not homophobic or racist and neither are most conservatives. Just because someone speaks softly and is attractive like Obama doesn't mean they are better for the country. I truly believe his policies have the effect of holding minorities and other poor people down and are also harmful to women. His foreign policy is Naive at best and probably just pandering.
Mit Romney is the most articulate and soft spoken of the group and that is the only reason I like him because I think the press would have a harder time demonizing if he wins the Presidency. I don't know if I can trust him but he's definitely more trustworthy than Clinton and has a better record than Obama.
Dee, I like Fred
Sat, 01/19/2008 - 19:11 ET by shawn228Dee,
I like Fred Thompson, but I truly believe that he is done. If he makes a miraculus comeback, I will be happy and there would be very good chance I would vote for him.
Yes, I have talked to quite a few open minded conservatives like yourself, most of them however are Libertarians. The more hard core Christians on this site seem to let their faith get in the way of rational thinking. They forget that people came to this country over a hundred years ago to escape religious prosecution.
Christians have the right to go to church, watch the 700 club and pretty much do whatever they please for their faith, but they are more concerned about "saving other people" and forcing their values and beliefs on everybody else.
How does Romney stop the applause?
Romney shows his compassion
Many conservatives want to
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 15:02 ET byMany conservatives want to take away our rights that do nobody any harm except for ourselves.
Where are any of the issues in your list clearly enumerated in the Constitution? Unless you first have something it can not be taken away.
Look in my garage -- no Lamborgini -- someone must have taken it.
No Poofdas
botg
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 15:06 ET by shawn228I really don't want to talk about the constitution, it can be interpreted in so many differant ways.
Why is it anybody elses business what people watch or do behind closed doors. It is a simple question without having to involve the constitution
Real Freedom
shawn
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 15:15 ET byyou talk about taking away rights, as far as i know for US citizens, the Constitution is the agreement by which our society defines which rights we have.
It's like doing math without those pesky equations.
No Poofdas
again botg
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 15:23 ET by shawn228I really don't want to get into talking about the constitution. If you want to tell me why people want to impose their will will on everybody else that is fine, but no constitution debates from me today.
Real Freedom
again Shawn
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 15:38 ET byit is central to the theme of your forum so iguess we are stuck with:
Bruce: Well Shawn why would you want to impose your will on society?
Shawn: If you want to tell me why people want to impose their will will on everybody else that is fine.
---repeat ad infinitum---
No Poofdas
botg
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 15:45 ET by shawn228I am not imposing my will on anybody...far from it. If I believe somebody should be able to die with dignity and it is their wish, I would give it my blessing. I am against the government telling that individual they have to suffer just because euthanasia is illegal. If a certain doctor is uncomfortable with it, i'm sure another doctor could be found.
I used to love listening to Howard, now he is off terrestial radio, much to the delight of the moral police. I hate suppression of free speech and there are not many topics I am quite as passionate above.
I believe it is disgusting to hang a noose or burn the American Flag, but I support somebodys free speech to do those despicable acts. That is what free speech is about, allowing something you cannot stand if it does not affect you or any other individual
Shawn
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 15:55 ET byOf course you are imposing your will!!!!
You are telling me and all NB what behavior should be allowed in public places in our society. Can your definition of 'freedom' exclude bestiality on NBC? No, not if you are consistent. The argument is not should we have lines which define acceptable behavior in society but where should the lines be drawn.
Why not film a documentary on this guy with additional volunteers, so they can get live footage? After all they both agree and aren't hurting anyone.
No Poofdas
Of course there should be
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 16:01 ET by shawn228Of course there should be lines drawn in the sand botg. No I do not believe beastiality should be shown on tv. Porn should not be shown either. There should be set guidelines on exactly when the family viewing time should be and when adults get to enjoy their programing.
I believe we can have it both ways. I am extra careful not to let my child see things she should not see and when she gets older, I will use the v -chip technology.
so admit it Shawn
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 16:05 ET byif you are advocating a line you are attempting to impose your will!! So it's just a different placement of the line.
No Poofdas
botg
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 16:09 ET by shawn228If you say so botg, imo you are taking the situation to the max to make me look like a hypocrite. How about you as a Christian? You believe everyone should live by God's laws.
If that was the case, can people be jailed for fornication? Death penalty for prostituion? Fined for covetting someone elses possesions?
informed
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 17:10 ET bymy politics are informed by my Judeo-Christian Worldview. IMO if all were to live by Godly principles, for there own good, this would be better world. It is precisely because i am against 'mandate by judicial fiat' that i support constructionists to the SCOTUS, so much for imposing my will eh?
Shawn, personally i believe you to be a fair-minded individual. If you truly think about the logic you will change your mind when shown an inconsistancy in your position.
--well, lunch break--
--okay back to work--
Shawn isn't it the very tolerance of the Judeo-Christian worldview which has allowed the malignent growth known as neo-liberalism to take root in the USA?
When a conservative says tolerance they mean you are free to disagree (after all you only tolerate things you disagree with) when a lib preaches tolerance they mean agree or get out.
No Poofdas
Ok botg,....time in!!
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 21:45 ET by shawn228Wow, I must be getting old. I can't remember the last time I enjoyed a afternoon nap as much as today.
"When a conservative says tolerance they mean you are free to disagree
(after all you only tolerate things you disagree with) when a lib
preaches tolerance they mean agree or get out."
I would not put it that way botg, imo there is no room for disagreements with many conservatives on
: raising taxes
: invading Iraq was wrong
: abortion
: univeral healthcare
:beleiving in global warming
I am not saying I believe in any the things I mentioned it only as an example of listening to a different pov or lack of.
Again, you can say I am guilty of imposing my will, but I truly believe if the government did not interfere in things that did not directly effect them, not only would they save 10s of billions of dollars in government money, ie war on drugs, and busting prositution rings.
It's like deja vu all over again
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 21:53 ET by Free StinkerShawn,
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
freestinker
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 21:54 ET by shawn228Did you read anywhere, that I support any of those postions? The only one I agree with out of those is universal healthcare and to a point invading Iraq.
I am in the middle on abortion and I know diddly squat about global warming.
Being a conservative
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 21:57 ET by Free StinkerBeing a conservative myself, I just thought you might want a nice little list of how we see these things.
I thought it might explain why we seem so "inflexible" on the issues.
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
Conservatives inflexible to issues.
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 22:33 ET by shawn228I am trying to keep this thread about individual freedoms, but people keep wanting to make this about something else, What the heck, if you can't beat them, join them.
Freestinker, you along with many conservatives feel very strongly about topics I understand. Abortion is a strong issue, and I understand why you would be very comparsionate about it. The left does not feel the fetus is a actually baby, and most women according to statistics feel very sad after an abortion, I would say the majority of women feel very distraught and abortion was not a easy decision for them.
You constantly perceive my questions as hostility, You know me, I am always willing to listen to somebodys pov and I have been known to change my mind. I just find your argument sort of like not believing man was ever on the moon. The government tells you we went there, but I have lots of links..umm I mean articles that say the contrary.
I mean take our converstation about the Iraq war, you are so convinced on your position that Invading Iraq was the right thing to do, you can't even answer one question.
Yes I realize hat you say, you addressed it before, but do you have anything ?, anything at alll better than "I don't know" about why the Secretary of State said we did not find the weapons we were looking for. It is not a unreasonable question.
Universal Healthcare, Yes I like it and I have experienced it. It is not as good as here if you have a great health plan, you are correct, but is is not half bad either, no one I know has died because of it. And certainly no one I know has lost all their money because of it.
Global Warming...I feign ignorance
So in conclusion, there inflexibility on both sides free
Ad nauseum, yet again
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 07:48 ET by UnsaneIt is not as good as here if you have a great health plan, you are correct, but is is not half bad either, as we ALL know, shooting for total mediocrity is the American way!!! (Don't forget that just ONE Houston area hospital spends more on life-saving medical research than ALL of Canada!)
no one I know has died because of it. The High Court of Quebec disagrees.
And certainly no one I know has lost all their money because of it. never mind that in order to inoculate themselves from that disease called Life, Canadians are poorer than Americans by an average of C$8100. I haven't known anyone who has gone broke at the doctor's office, either...unless their financial management skills sucked to begin with. And I REFUSE to coddle those losers.
By the way, since you support every American stealing from each other to pay for free doctors, does that also mean, because of your desire to see society become more like the Dutch, that our tax dollars should pay for someone who has medical issues due to drug use? Or should pay for care for a disease they acquire from promiscuity with prosititutes?
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
: raising taxes : invading
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 22:12 ET by: raising taxes
: invading Iraq was wrong
: abortion
: univeral healthcare
:beleiving in global warming
and in any of these issues where are the examples of intolerance on the part of conservatives?
No Poofdas
fs and botg
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 22:17 ET by shawn228Many of the left consider these topics as tolerant you consider them not to be. The people on the lefts convictions are every bit as deep as yours.
Again FS, I am not debating any of those issues with saying I support those positions either, way I am saying liberals feelings are very strong about those topics as well.
Shawn, so conviction can
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 22:35 ET byexist on both sides, that just further reinforces my point that BOTH sides (and everybody) are attempting to implement their agenda. So when you ask:
If you want to tell me why people want to impose their will will on everybody else that is fine
i will answer look to your heart and why do you do that? See it's what we are all doing Shawn, the manner you j'accuse makes it seem as though only one side is doing so.
No Poofdas
botg
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 22:43 ET by shawn228That is absoloutly not true botg. I made it clear that both sides of the isle are equally passionate about their beliefs and both thumb their nose at each others positions.
I get in trouble with my conservative friends when I tell them that the President truly thought we had wmd and remind them that the Dems authorized the war in Iraq as well.They get upset at me as well and I hear their flames.
I was simply disputing your point about conservatives being more tolerant in their opinions, and go off on another topic k? Just like my Media Scapegoat thread all of a sudden got changed to the Katrina thread.
Shawn
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 22:55 ET byi thought that this forum was about freedoms and 'taking away rights' and that the specific issues were incidental to the main theme. Thus i brought up two points:
1) rights are defined in the constitution (if they are not there they can't be taken away)
2) both sides attempt to implement their agenda thus to state; Many conservatives want to take away our rights that do nobody any harm except for ourselves. is an attempt to appear neutral while advocating for your side! (in other words trying to implement your agenda while taking my money to do so!)
No Poofdas
Botg has a valid point. . .
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 23:15 ET by tracheostomy. . .and I'm having a real hard time trying to figure out where you're standing on this Shawn.*
I'll keep checking back.
-PJ
*Or even what "this" is all about for that matter.
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
I disagree Shawn - it's liberals who take away our rights
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 15:28 ET by Dee Bunkconstantly from seat belt laws to no smoking laws to taking away our property (Kelo vs New London) or our right to gun ownership, or the right to raise our children with values and ideas that we think are appropriate.
As far as drug laws and prostitution laws even your most liberal candidate (Obama) isn't advocating getting rid of those.
In fact, please list the laws that the far right have sponsored and have been enacted that limit personal freedoms that harm no one but ourselves. Even when we had control of both the House, Senate and Presidency, none of this nonsense happened.
Most laws that impede on our freedoms come from liberals. You need to wake up to that fact.
Dee Bunk
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 15:38 ET by shawn228Read the last paragraph of my thread. Liberals tend to take away our freedoms when it comes to what we want to eat, whose feelings we can hurt, why we should not smoke cigarettes. I get that!
Religious right.Conservatives are the morality police and they want to impose their morality views on everyone else. This certainly does not pertain to all conservatives especially many of the libertarians on this site. I have heard more than once about morals from some members on this site and I would like their input on why they can dictate what I am allowed to do, even if it does not effect anybody else except for me
Shawn - my point is that there is a morality police now
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 16:31 ET by Dee Bunkand it's from the left not the right. You don't think laws about hurting someone's feelings and smoking are morality laws? Hate crimes aren't morality laws? Banning of religious symbols aren't morality laws? Saying - I"m taking your property for the good of the community isn't a morality law? Banning torture isn't a morality law?
There are no laws even close to passing that would deny anyone the ability sleep with any other consenting adult they wanted to when it doesn't involve money and the exploitation of someone else. Liberals and conservatives (from the center) agree on that and most on the far right would not outlaw any additional sexual activity.
When it comes to drugs, again, most on the center appose legalizing drugs. It's not a far right issue.
The only thing the far right harp on and try to change is the constant images children are exposed to. Public airwaves are different. They aren't out their trying to outlaw movies and DVDs.
Some on the far right appose civil unions but so do many center Democrats. I support civil unions but not supporting them doesn't take anyone's rights away.
Shawn: Religious
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 17:03 ET by tracheostomyShawn: Religious right.Conservatives are the morality police and they want to impose their morality views on everyone else.
Which morality in particular? There are quite a few conservatives that are members of the "religious right" who are at odds with each other over this very issue. You have to be on the inside to see it though. A social gospel is not the gospel. You can't even rationalize it as some sort of a proto-gospel. This was where Debra and I were frequently at odds.
Shawn: I have heard more than once about morals from some members on this site and I would like their input on why they can dictate what I am allowed to do, even if it does not effect anybody else except for me
Dee makes an excellent point. I think when you look at everything in a pile though, the libs are the ones really winning on controlling behavior.
Shawn, I think your problem is with certain individuals, either on TV or in your personal life. When you complain and generalize at the same time, you tend to stir everything and everyone in the same bowl, and you lose track of who's doing what to who.
One starts with, "Man, I hate right-wingers. . ."
Later on, it's amended to, "Man, I hate Religious right Conservatives. . ."
Then gradually, you get to, "Man I can't stand it when Religious right Conservatives do thus and such. . ."
Then eventually you're down to, "Man I can't understand the policy of this religious organization led by this individual. . ." <--- That's right where you wanna be, then work upward from there.
Just like libs, there are very few conservatives out there that are aware of everything going on within their "ism" --especially the pet topics.
"Are you pro-family?"
"Sure."
"Wanna help promote my new book on your TV show?"
"Duh, sure. You're pro-family."
It makes no sense, but it happens all the time.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
trach
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 21:52 ET by shawn228Your right I am generalizing. I do not mean everybody on the religious right. Candance, who is one of my favorite people on this site believes in God and has like yourself taught me alot about the good book and how to pave a way to Salvation, for which I am grateful.
The difference between a person like her or Truthmonger and to a point botg is that she has a live and let live attitude. She does not like filth and disapproves, but at the same time she does not want to tell anyone else if they can watch porn either.
TM believes something like porn is no worse than child porn, which I find a ridiculus comparision. Now I can many peoples pov when it is in your face all time the time ie ...big billboards with hot women or lingerie. Especially if it is near a school. That I understand.
Shawn,
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 23:09 ET by tracheostomyDo you think there should be no moral laws at all then?
If not, then what exactly would your ideal world look like? What laws would be in place where?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
you find me ridiculous,
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:24 ET by TruthMongeryou find me ridiculous, yes - and that's the whole point - that's your morality - just different from mine - I find yours ridiculous as well
porn, gambling, homosexuality, abortion - all used to be culturally un-acceptable
but ultra-progressive libertarians have been working very hard on it
and now it's much more acceptable
I am forced to live with this morality against my religion - and even actively support most of it - PC company policies require it by state and federal law now
of course ped-porn, legalized pot, prostitution is still culturally un-acceptable - for now
but ultra-progressive libertarians are working very hard on that...
it's the slippery slope in progress
when a butterfly flaps it's wings it affects us all, and people may comprimise, but the laws of the universe never do, and those that forget the past are condemned to repeat it - Rome was once moral and prosperous too
civilization requires all of us to live with restrictions
truthmonger
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 23:35 ET by shawn228First of all, i did not call you ridiculous, I called your comparision ridiculus.
Just to reassure you TM, if there was ever a vote on a ballad to support CP, I will vote no okay ? :-)
oh, my comparison is
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 16:23 ET by TruthMongeroh, my comparison is ridiculous, not me - thanks for that absolutely vital clarification - clears up alot - really, wow, fantastic....
and yeah, I was really afraid you might support CP - great to know you're against it:)
CP is so much more degrading and abusive then good old healthy no-big-deal "regular" porn - after all adults don't have feelings, self-esteem, or dignity do they...
so party on dude
maybe the local pervs can catch a video of your nearest and dearest online sometime soon!
Ok Botg
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 23:00 ET by shawn228I want to know that I am not the sharpest knive if the drawer, but I understand things if they told me enough ok?
I get it, you want to bring up the constitution and technical side of it, sort of like Clintons perception of the word "is". No ....really I get it.
Can we get off than tangent? and focus on why one should be able to tell another how to live their lives.
well sure Shawn
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 23:02 ET bytell me why you should be allowed to tell me how i should live.
No Poofdas
you first. I have
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 23:13 ET by shawn228you first. I have been waiting very patiently to get this out of you. I wll respond to your question to trach.
two options Shawn
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 00:11 ET bywe have laws
we don't have laws
--pick one--
No Poofdas
See botg
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 00:15 ET by shawn228sigh, fine botg, I guess I will never get a straight answer out of you and don't even think about now knowing what i am talking about because you do.
kind of disappointed, was actually wanting you hear your opinion instead of definititon of laws.
my opinion on issues
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 00:39 ET bythat's a different story entirely, i was more looking at how do you reach the conclusions. The opinions are easy. Yeah i have friends who tell me i 'talk in riddles' but is it not better for you understand the reasoning behind the telling? See my opinion is that your criteria is biased and therefore your output will be skewed.
Euthanasia: any devaluation of any life devalues us all not a road i wish to start down. (abortion--same thing)
adult entertainment: most of it devalues and dehumanizes women which in turn corrupts individuals in the society. As a member of society i want it to be healthy
drug use: not only does it degrade the individual user but also their families, friends and society as a whole. Not the kind of place i want you to have to raise your children!!!
No Poofdas
botg
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:27 ET by shawn228thanks botg, that was hard work getting that out of you ;-)
No one is asking you to devalue life, just stay out of the way
If you feel it is your opinion it devalues and dehumanizing woman that is fine, but don't forget the woman that pose nude and do porn. In most cases, people are not forcing them to do these things and it is by their free will.
I see our pov on drug use, but I believe money on rehab is better than the money spent on losing the war on drugs.
No one is asking you to
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:44 ET byNo one is asking you to devalue life, just stay out of the way
While it's done to the society i am part of? Who's forcing their morals now?!
No Poofdas
great logic isn't it? do
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 16:26 ET by TruthMongergreat logic isn't it?
do as i say, not as i do:)
Shawn: No one is asking
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:48 ET by tracheostomyShawn: No one is asking you to devalue life, just stay out of the way
"Stay out of the way," what?
Do you believe a life is only as good as the "quality of life" that others judge it to have?
Shawn: If you feel it is your opinion it devalues and dehumanizing woman that is fine, but don't forget the woman that pose nude and do porn. In most cases, people are not forcing them to do these things and it is by their free will.
Not completely. You forget the money/fame/coercion factor. If we are truly talking "most cases" as you say.
Shawn: I see our pov on drug use, but I believe money on rehab is better than the money spent on losing the war on drugs.
. . .
Would this be some kind of govt. rehab progam you would be supporting then?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
trach and botg
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:57 ET by shawn228Again I do not say how euthanasia I am forcing my opinion on anyone. Unlike abortion the only life they are taking are their own. Why is it any of your business.
Also, yes there is the lure of fame, money and coersion factor, but who are you to tell them what methods they use to try to get famous. and no I am not advocating anything illegal
Yes I am talking about a government program, I believe it will be much less expensive than the government sponsored war on drugs progam.
Shawn, you are proposing a
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 02:03 ET byShawn, you are proposing a change in the status quo. The society has operated under an agreed system where killing people is not allowed. You need to provide justification for the change and protection from unintended consequences after the change. All i am saying is leave our agreement as is.
No Poofdas
I told you botg
Sat, 02/23/2008 - 23:15 ET by shawn228I am not very sharp. I even spelt knife wrong
Trach
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 00:07 ET by shawn228I would totally chg up how the airways go. I would have certain television stations that you don't have to extra for like Showtime or HBO
These would be regular channels that offer more graphic scenes. I don't just mean nudity, but can you imagine 24 even more violent? Greys Anatomy to have nudity? CSI with more graphic scense and course language? I would like to have that choice. I would like to have the strongest password protection, so kids do not watch it.
On certain stations, they would not be allowed to show any smut and only respect good old fashioned familiy oriented programs like the Brady bunch.
As far as prostitution and drugs go, I would like to have a every city allowed to have sort of like a red light district much like they do in Amsterdam.
I would like gays to be more excepted in society.
I would hope they allow euthanisa as well.
That is my perfect scenario on that topic Trach.
Let's see how far down the
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 00:21 ET by tracheostomyLet's see how far down the rabbit hole goes. . .
Shawn: These would be regular channels that offer more graphic scenes. I don't just mean nudity, but can you imagine 24 even more violent? Greys Anatomy to have nudity? CSI with more graphic scense and course language?
I dunno. How much more graphic do you wanna get? I have to live that crap every day, so I don't have much time to watch and I can't make a fair (reverse) comparison, really. When I do watch it, I get too emotionally attached to the minor characters. In drama, it's a bit part. But in life it's not.
Shawn: I would like to have that choice. I would like to have the strongest password protection, so kids do not watch it.
You really believe that's an effective solution? You really believe it's possible to "kid proof" the world and have adult-only access to it at the same time?
Shawn: As far as prostitution and drugs go, I would like to have a every city allowed to have sort of like a red light district much like they do in Amsterdam.
You know they've been cutting that stuff back over there, right?
Shawn: I would like gays to be more excepted in society.
How are they not accepted in society now? How does society currently oppress them?
Shawn: I would hope they allow euthanisa as well.
In what form?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
You really believe that's
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 00:27 ET by balboaYou really believe that's an effective solution? You really believe it's possible to "kid proof" the world and have adult-only access to it at the same time?
It's supposed to work with gun ownership, so why not TV?
Ho-ho! Balboa gets the
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 00:42 ET by tracheostomyHo-ho! Balboa gets the zinger in!
I think of gun locks/safes the same way. I'd also prefer raising the child around the gun like it was a household poison.
"This is not candy"
"This is not a toy."
But then I'm not a parent, I have no idea how to make the threat of punishment stick. All I know is I was raised around them all and did just as I was told.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
So then will it work for TV
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 00:45 ET by balboaSo then will it work for TV or not?
Bal.
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 00:55 ET by tracheostomyI say no.
Shawn appears to say yes.
And you appear to imply "no" as well.
Correct?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
I say in both it's up to the
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:02 ET by balboaI say in both it's up to the parents to make sure it works. If the parents do their job, then you're all set.
This is where we come to
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:13 ET by tracheostomyThis is where we come to the impasse, and that is whether or not most Americans value personal responsiblity or not.
And I have no authority in that area either. I'm not a parent, but I merely feel that most parents today don't care about what their children are exposed to.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
[gasp] You FEEL? I thought
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:18 ET by balboa[gasp]
You FEEL? I thought conservatives only dealt in logic! I'm so disappointed...
Seriously, though, I don't think many parents take responsibility for their kids. I honestly believe there is a faction of parents that just want to be friends with their kids in the hopes that the kids don't open fire on a crowded classroom one day.
But if we're going to expect kids to coexist with guns in the house, I think we can expect them to coexist with cable TV.
Bal
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:25 ET byW's advisory team may surprise you but they left off T'Pol : (
No Poofdas
you can't lock up immorality
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 16:29 ET by TruthMongeryou can't lock up immorality in case, like a gun
Geez, cut me some slack Bal!
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:36 ET by tracheostomyBal: [gasp] You FEEL? I thought conservatives only dealt in logic! I'm so disappointed...
I worded it very carefully and posted the disclaimer. Really, my statement holds no real merit whatsoever.
Bal: Seriously, though, I don't think many parents take responsibility for their kids. I honestly believe there is a faction of parents that just want to be friends with their kids in the hopes that the kids don't open fire on a crowded classroom one day.
Wow, I agree completely. Well, then what do we do about it? We can't simply legislate parental responsibility, can we?
Bal: But if we're going to expect kids to coexist with guns in the house, I think we can expect them to coexist with cable TV.
That comparison can go only so far. For one thing, the TV was used far more than the guns in my house.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
bal, If you wish to put
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:27 ET by R D Helmbal,
If you wish to put your life, along with the lives of those you care about, in the hands of the government for protection, that is your choice.
All I ask is that you respect the decisions those of us who have made a different choice.
Proud member of the "Rough Republican Attack Machine."
? I'm confused. Isn't that
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:36 ET by balboa?
I'm confused. Isn't that what we do with the American military? Or are you talking about personal everyday protection? Do you not count on the police?
I respect anyone's decision to own a gun. That's fine. As I stated, if we expect to keep kids from guns, there should be a reasonable expectation that we can do the same with TV we don't want them to watch.
"I dunno. How much more
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 00:30 ET by shawn228"I dunno. How much more graphic do you wanna get? I have to live that
crap every day, so I don't have much time to watch and I can't make a
fair (reverse) comparison, really. When I do watch it, I get too
emotionally attached to the minor characters. In drama, it's a bit
part. But in life it's not. "
I don't get it Trach, what do you live every day? Do have hot nurses hitting on you because you are a doctor, are you a secret agent for the counter terrorist unit? I you are afraid of getting emotionally attached, so be it. Don't tell me I can't watch it.
"You really believe that's an effective solution? You really believe
it's possible to "kid proof" the world and have adult-only access to it
at the same time? "
Well there is flat out pornography on comcast and sattelite right now. the only thing that stops a child from watching it is a password right. That is much worse.
"You know they've been cutting that stuff back over there, right? "
Absolutely trach, I think it is a shame too. You want to know why? Because of far right Christians and conservative Muslims. Both religions have problems with so called filth.
Shawn: I don't get it
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 00:52 ET by tracheostomyShawn: I don't get it Trach, what do you live every day? Do have hot nurses hitting on you because you are a doctor, are you a secret agent for the counter terrorist unit?
I thought they were all part of a team. Has Hollywood blinded you that much?
Shawn: I you are afraid of getting emotionally attached, so be it. Don't tell me I can't watch it.
I didn't say that. I was just free-associating. I don't understand why graphic violence seems to take priority over the story.
Does the camera zooming in exclusively on the donkey's butthole make the overall donkey more "down-to-earth gritty and realistic"?
Shawn: Well there is flat out pornography on comcast and sattelite right now. the only thing that stops a child from watching it is a password right. That is much worse.
But why a password to begin with? You seem to have a moral code that believes exposing the child to porn is somehow wrong. Where does that come from?
Shawn: Absolutely trach, I think it is a shame too. You want to know why? Because of far right Christians and conservative Muslims. Both religions have problems with so called filth.
C'mon. . .where did you read that? Show your cards.
Here's my source. I've read other articles on it where they note a connection to actual crime. Gee, that's a correlation the right has been trying to make for some time. And the Dutch are just starting to realize it with their grand experiment.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
trach
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:11 ET by shawn228Trach here is the article regarding what I was saying
Here are a few highlights
"Today, with an orthodox Christian political party in the government for
the first time, and with immigration anxieties fueling a national
search for identity, the country that has been the world's most
socially liberal political laboratory is rethinking its anything-goes
policies."
"People are saying we should have values; people are asking for more and more rules in society."
" Orthodox Christian members of parliament have introduced a bill that
would allow civil officials with moral objections to refuse to perform
gay marriages. And Dutch authorities are trying to curtail the
activities of an abortion rights group that assists women in
neighboring countries where abortions are illegal
"The Netherlands is going through the same racial, ethnic and religious metamorphosis as the rest of Western Europe:
Large influxes of black, Arab and Muslim immigrants are changing the
social complexion of an overwhelmingly white, Christian nation
struggling with its loss of homogeneity. "
Oky doky then, I believe I showed my cards on that topic. You have to do better in a debate than to talk about a close up of donkey butt with me Trach.
Hollywood has not blinded me, I do not know what you mean by they were a team. Please explain.
Shawn,
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:28 ET by tracheostomySorry, but first of all, my article actually pre-dates yours. The realization was clear before the orthodox party came to power.
Further, how can your article back your opinion up, when it appears to me that. . .
Quote: "People in high political circles are saying it can't be good to have a society so liberal that everything is allowed,"
. . .they're simply re-thinking the common sense of a "limitless society" here. Are you saying the Dutch conservatives are somehow cheating or imposing their limits arbitrarily? The experiment simply failed Shawn.
Shawn: You have to do better in a debate than to talk about a close up of donkey butt with me Trach.
That was a serious question. I wasn't just being flip. Okay, yeah I was to a certain degree. But it's still a valid question. Please answer it. You can even substitue "donkey" for "victim" if you want to.
Shawn: Hollywood has not blinded me, I do not know what you mean by they were a team. Please explain.
Okay, then Hollywood has blinded you, or I'm totally confused as to your entertainment goals.
1. If you're looking for gritty realism, then CSI and Grey's isn't it.
2. If you're simply looking for "shock value" in entertainment, then why go through the pretense of having writers?
3. All I was saying was that's not the way it is in real life. You appear to disagree with it somehow.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
trach
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:46 ET by shawn228As far as I am concerned, the fact that my article is newer has more clout and it tells of the reasons why Amsterdam is changing.
I also have no interest in seeing a donkey butt in high defination. Let me use one of the most famous cult movies of all time. Scarface. I have seen Scarface numerous times. I know it bugs me every time the F word is replaced by "golly" lol. I want to be able to watch something like that movie on tv and I realize it is not for everybody so that is why I want it on a adult only channel.
You would have the option of watching Pat Robertson and the 700 club 24/7 because I would have Christian station on as well ;-)
then get the DVD and be done
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:52 ET bythen get the DVD and be done with it
No Poofdas
botg
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 01:59 ET by shawn228I said programs like it on TV. I did not say Scarface itself.
and i should
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 02:09 ET byhave to adjust my household to enable you? get HBO. Cinemax or any of the pay for porn you want.
No Poofdas
He's got a point there
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 02:13 ET by tracheostomyHe's got a point there Shawn. And you just keep waving him off.
Answer us.
How far is "no limits" exactly, again?
And how can you even propose this while advocating a "gun-lock" attitude towards children?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
trach
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 02:23 ET by shawn228I have not been waving him off Trach, I have answered all his questions and I have said right from the beginning I am not going to talk about definition of laws.
I suppose a line in the sand would be, no beastility, rape, incest, child porn, hate shows, progams that spread terrorist messages. I must have left something out, but that would be a starting point.
Okay then Shawn, the next
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 02:31 ET by tracheostomyOkay then Shawn, the next step in the process is to ask why you're setting those limits. Where do those limits that you impose come from?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
trach
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 02:39 ET by shawn228Those would be the boundries if i was in charge of the FCC trach. I am not going down that road with you. At a later time maybe, but not today. Just humor me. Lets say those are the boundries I pick and they are made law, why would you be against it?
Question is Shawn
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 02:48 ET bywhy would you want to take away our rights that do nobody any harm except for ourselves.
No Poofdas
Like I said in my thread botg
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 02:56 ET by shawn228Just change the channel. Or even better, don't subscibe to the channel. Then everyone can watch whatever programing they wish and everyone is happy except for the people that are more concerned what is being watched in somebody elses home
Okay, you two are just
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 03:05 ET by tracheostomyOkay, you two are just dueling with dollars.
Botg says: Buy the DVD/order it yourself.
Shawn is essentially saying: Pay for it yourself.
Step back. You're both chasing around the same tree. Therefore there would be no purpose in changing any laws from the way they are now.
I think Shawn sees a restriction in entertainment somewhere where it really doesn't exist, and Botg has been trying to point that fact out.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
actually PJ
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 03:21 ET byShawn said he would have boundaries and also said (conservatives) want to take away our rights that do nobody any harm except for ourselves. (i bolded the quote from his forum)
my question is why are Shawns boundaries good but conservative boundries bad? I say drop the whole boundries are bad smoke and get down to what should the boundries be! (without vilifing conservatives for having boundaries)
No Poofdas
Still scratching my head here. . .
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 03:33 ET by tracheostomyUm. . .he wants everyone to have "limitless options," (because limits are bad and the fault of "conservatives" I guess).
Yet, if he were in charge he would still impose his own limits.
I don't think he really wants to be understood, myself. I'm trying my hardest here to see what his problem is.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
zzzz time
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 03:44 ET bygoodnight P
No Poofdas
Then the question would be,
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 16:49 ET by BinxlyThen the question would be, what are these 'limits'? What makes Trach or botg's 'limits,' or the 'limits' currently used, more valid than Shawn's?
I am pretty sure I know where this will go, morals. And I agree. Morals should be the compass. However, morals are relative with everyone. Sure, if you are of the school of ole where God is a fire-breathing dragon, with nothing but contempt for 'the status quo,' intolerant of anything but the very static 'norm,' then yes, I can see how one would want to use *those* 'norms' as the benchmark. I'll admit, I'm torn between Trach and botg's view and Shawn's point. I'll even go as far as to say I'm leaning more toward Trach and botg since child protection thru things such as the V-chip doesn't always keep your child porn-free, rather, it often ends with a child exposed to porn who has a lil' more technical know-how, and a greater appreciation for 'working for what you want.'
I think the current system works fine to me, my only beef is, if we're gonna show boarderline soft-core pornography on TV, what's the big deal about a curse word? Sure, curses are rude, unacceptable in public for the most part, and makes one sound uneducated, but they don't get young girls pregnant or spread disease. If I had my way I'd be more leanient on curses and much more strict about the sexual contact, at least on certain channels. (should a show that has underage sex REALLY be on a channel with 'family' in the name like ABC family?!)
Believe it or not, while me and Trach disagree veheminently on the homosexual issue, I think we have very similar morals on the issue of sex and how sad it is that in today's world its viewed as an extracurricular after school activity rather than a very important and sacred form of intimacy. I think Shawn's heart is in the right place, that it is no one's place to restrict what one watches, but this is a consumer driven society and, if you want pornography or gratuitous violence ala movies like the SAW series or Hostel, then I see no problem in having to pay a lil extra to get such channels.
In closing, I agree alot with what you are saying Shawn, I too believe the government should stay the hell out of our business for the most part, however, we simply cannot and should not have such sexually graphic or violent television easily accessible to children. It is CERTAINLY the responsibility of the parents, but if we can help the parents out by making sure they have access but the children do not, then I think that's great. As for the paying more for more sexually explicit programing or violent programing, I think it is not out of line to charge a few extra bucks. HBO and their ilk also don't necessarily charge more due to the content in their shows, but rather, they are the 'home movie theatre' channels, playing movies that were not long ago in theatres. Because of this, their channel costs a bit more.
That all said though, there is the slippery slope of 'who's morals should be the standard?' I just thank my stars that the ones in place I am pleased with, more often than not.
I would be against it
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 02:54 ET by tracheostomyI would be against it because I'd side with the Dutch who would say, "Yeah, we tried that and it didn't work."
Also, because there would certainly be another "Shawn" out there that would be saying the same thing you're saying now, and who would be probably starting threads in forums and such to justify pushing your established limits even further.
How do you know "what the people want" anyway?
You don't want me to "go down that road" and I honestly have no idea what "road" you're talking about, other than the fact that I get the impression you're what. . .scared to deal with it?
Even if you were in charge, you would still be setting limits on behavior. If you lived long enough, I would be willing to bet you'd start having the same regrets as the Dutch.
Therefore, why do you place "as long as no one else [really] gets hurt" as your moral standard?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
botg
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 02:19 ET by shawn228I would be giving people what they want botg. There was a thread before about unbundling tv packages.
I am fine with that, you can subscribe to whatever channels your family chooses.
If you don't want to see Bill Maher, you don't want to watch Bill Maher. Conservatives would have the right to see how much pro gun, pro family values progaming they want. There will be a channel for that market as well.
Shawn: As far as I am
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 02:01 ET by tracheostomyShawn: As far as I am concerned, the fact that my article is newer has more clout and it tells of the reasons why Amsterdam is changing.
You're arguing that newer simply has more value. . .just because it's more recent?
I am pointing to the origins, the foundation, and the progression of what you're citing. You can't just take a snapshot without any context and say, "so there!"
Therefore, I have more grasp of the entire scenario than you are willing to admit. I simply see an overall societal regret reflected by elected officials (they are still elected over there, right). You see some kind of. . .oppression. Correct?
Shawn: Let me use one of the most famous cult movies of all time. Scarface. I have seen Scarface numerous times. I know it bugs me every time the F word is replaced by "golly" lol. I want to be able to watch something like that movie on tv and I realize it is not for everybody so that is why I want it on a adult only channel.
Why? Why do you personally enjoy that film so much? Do you see it from the gangsta fantasy aspect, or do you see it as a moving tragedy? Do you see Scarface as a cautionary moral tale? <--- I'd gamble that you don't.
If there were a director's cut of Scarface, what would you want to see? The actual clean-up and disposal of the bodies? Tony's impotence from all the cocaine use? What?
Shawn: You would have the option of watching Pat Robertson and the 700 club 24/7 because I would have Christian station on as well ;-)
Um, what?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
trach
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 02:14 ET by shawn228A recent article is sort of like a poll. The more recent it is the more if relects how people are feeling a the present moment, but if you feel you are right so be it. Lets not dig up this moot dead horse again ok?
I like Scarface because of what is it. A movie, something I can get lost in for a few hours and I don't have to think about anything. I don't know if a different version can be made any better.
Yes If I was in charge of the airwaves, Christians can have their own channel and they can talk about the good book 24/7. I am sure it will plenty of viewers. The only reason it would go off the air if I was in charge is, if it is not profitable, because I would not let government pay for a station, like PBS
Shawn: A recent article
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 02:30 ET by tracheostomyShawn: A recent article is sort of like a poll. The more recent it is the more if relects how people are feeling a the present moment, but if you feel you are right so be it. Lets not dig up this moot dead horse again ok?
1. Apologies, but I wasn't present when the dead horse was initially beat.
2. You are proposing that our feelings and judgements on a given matter should be made on a moment-by-moment basis. This gives no room for lessons learned from experience. As the saying goes, "Those who do not learn from history. . ." etcetera.
I am totally accepting your recent article word-for-word within the context of what led up to that moment. You are sitting there telling me that the past that led up to it just doesn't count. On what authority? Are we nothing more than dogs; living for the moment?
Shawn: I like Scarface because of what is it. A movie, something I can get lost in for a few hours and I don't have to think about anything. I don't know if a different version can be made any better.
Stop hedging please. You know exactly what I'm getting at. Why do you prefer that entertainment genre??
Shawn: Yes If I was in charge of the airwaves, Christians can have their own channel and they can talk about the good book 24/7. I am sure it will plenty of viewers. The only reason it would go off the air if I was in charge is, if it is not profitable, because I would not let government pay for a station, like PBS
That's beside the point. I'm looking for the furthest extent of your proposal. <---EDIT: Already stated above, thanks Shawn.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
trach
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 02:47 ET by shawn228No hedging here trach, I have no idea what you are talking about. I like Scarface, I like 24, I like Die Hard, I like the Godfather,
I also like shows like Titanic, Romantic comedys like Ever After and the Pretty Woman.
I like all sorts of shows.
I would have password protected content for the channels that are Adult Oriented, I don't know what else to say.
I'll say it straight out
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 03:08 ET by tracheostomyI'll say it straight out then. Do you find entertainment value in the pieces that you feel are being badly cut out on network TV? Do you feel they are absolutely essential to your entertainment needs?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
trach
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 03:13 ET by shawn228No I am not saying they are essential, I am saying I would like to have that choice. Getting late, have a good night trach.
Contradictions collapse
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 04:13 ET by UnsaneOnce again, Shawn, contradictions collapse. You are very upset that people in this country can do things like choose a doctor, yet you feel that hooking up with prostitutes, consuming drugs, adult entertainment, and the like are WONDERFUL things we are all somehow entitled to, and that if anyone acts to proscribe such things, why, we are some sort of evil dictatorship.
I have no belief in God to guide me in these areas, but I don't like the idea of telling our children that it is 100% OK if they just shoot up and smoke themselves out of society and become worthless. Adult entertainment is something I can care less about. I don't spend my valuable time on things like that. Besides, watching the Australian Open women's singles final did more for me than any strip club can manage. Anyways, that being said, I don't see anything wrong with keeping such things away from children.
You say your adult viewing is password-protected. trust me, children have ways of getting past that. How do I know? Well, let's just say I didn't emerge from the womb in my 30s...
Euthanasia, as I have discussed, is a Pandora's Box I do not care to open. if I get more time I will elaborate further, but if you want to give up on living, go off yourself on your own with either a shotgun or a glass of whiskey and two valiums. Or take out what is called a DNR order; I had to deal with those as a volunteer firefighter.
I have NOTHING against homosexuality. As long as two consenting adults are carrying on behind closed doors, what do I care? But I have to draw the line somewhere. NO civil unions. NO gay marriage. Marriage is an institution designed to legitimate families and children, nothing more, nothing less.
Oh yes, and dare I say it? The nations that are most permissive about these things all have one thing in common: as societies and countries, they Are All Going Nowhere. I don't want to live in a society that has given up and is content to go absolutely nowhere.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Unsane (& Shawn)
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 04:32 ET by MrShyTHAT post, above.... is being tagged by Mr. Shy, right here: BEST POST OF 2008 !!! (I know, it's early in the year, but so far it's the best I've seen... ok ok, I haven't been on NB as much lately...)
Still, this one just knocked me out... chockful of poignant, truthful goodies. Each paragraph is ace and spot-on, and perfectly put. Especially the opening one:
You are very upset that people in this country can do things like
choose a doctor, yet you feel that hooking up with prostitutes,
consuming drugs, adult entertainment, and the like are WONDERFUL things
we are all somehow entitled to, and that if anyone acts to proscribe
such things, why, we are some sort of evil dictatorship.
Wow! I never recognized this total hypocrisy. Man. Thank you, Unsane.
We bid a fond farewell to Professor Talking Points & Cheetos
Wow Mr. Shy
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 10:28 ET by shawn228Agree with someone else and disagree with me? My goodness what a shocker? ;-)
Actually in a way, I am shocked. I figured a person that sells womans thongs for a living might actually believe in personal freedom.
Well Unsane
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 06:28 ET by well99"Euthanasia, as I have discussed, is a Pandora's Box I do not care to open. if I get more time I will elaborate further, but if you want to give up on living, go off yourself on your own with either a shotgun or a glass of whiskey and two valiums. Or take out what is called a DNR order; I had to deal with those as a volunteer firefighter."
Actually it is illegal.Yes if you do it what are they going to do.Your dead.I cant speak for Shawn but my own view is that for those not physically capable they should be able to be doctor assisted.It should be the individuals decision not the goverments.
Once again
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 08:43 ET by UnsaneAgain, doctor assisted suicide opens up a Pandora's Box, and that isn't me making an argument based on religion. Rather, I base that on legality.
I also submit the Dutch legalized euthanasia in the hopes that more of their elderly do it, because it will save the Nanny State there a mint if all of their elderly (and ill, of course) did themselves in. Harsh sounding? Perhaps. But I sadly suspect that therein lies the truth.
Again, if you have given up on life, there are tons of options available, to include DNR orders and living wills.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
It is nobody buisness
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 11:32 ET by well99People have the right to make that decision not the goverment.I could care less about how other countries apply the law.Some people are not physically able to do it.I know all about Dnrs.
Again...
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 07:41 ET by UnsaneCall me crazy, but I don't feel like giving an elite group of professionals the right to commit murder. I would prefer our medical professionals look to those like Salk and Reed as reference points, not Kevorkian and Mengele.
"I could care less about how other countries apply the law." - Typical. Yes, this country is the greatest on earth, but it pays to look at how other countries do business from time to time, and why (and in this case, why we shouldn't be doing it).
You want to give up on life? Go off yourself, and if you fear not being able to do so, take out a DNR or a living will and be happy.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Unsane
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 12:17 ET by well99"You want to give up on life? Go off yourself, and if you fear not being able to do so, take out a DNR or a living will and be happy."
So it is ok for people to suffer extreme pain even with medication.People who dont have the physical ability to end their own suffering?You do know that Doctors cut off life support on DNR cases right.On the Mengele reference.I sure the doctors in this country will become war crimals if euthanasia became legal.
More
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 15:35 ET by UnsaneBoth Drs. Kevorkian and Mengele are murderers, and you seem 100% okay with every doctor becoming one, or having the potential to become one. I disagree.
And why do you think I brought up DNRs and living wills? The path to giving up on the act of living is already there. If you don't want to be resuscitated, have a DNR or a living will. That's fine. But euthanasia on demand? No.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Unsane
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 16:11 ET by well99So you seem 100% okay with people suffering extreme pain.I disagree.So are the doctors that take people off life support murders?
Check again
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 16:24 ET by UnsaneYou don't read very well. If you have a DNR or a living will, what's the problem? I do not want the United States to go beyond that, like what exists in the Netherlands.
And what's "extreme suffering"? If I had a girlfriend, and she broke up with me, can I tell the doc that I am suffering extremely horribly, and that he should kill me because I want to die?
I'm off to bed.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Unsane
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 16:41 ET by well99Apparently you dont either.This is what I posted.
"So you seem 100% okay with people suffering extreme pain."
You do know that terminal patients are not necessary on life support systems.As far as the Netherlands well this aint about their system.
Again...
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 02:31 ET by UnsaneAs far as the Netherlands well this aint about their system. Well, perhaps you ought to look at it. Carefully. Broaden your horizons for once and use comparative analysis. I realize this may require you to acknowledge that there are other nations on earth than the United States (!) and that the United States does not exist in a vacuum, but you might learn something.
So, what is extreme suffering? If I have the stomach flu and am down to vomiting bile and dry heaves, can I ask a doc to hit me with potassium chloride?
Again, if you don't feel life is worth fighting for, go off yourself. If you can't, and didn't make a living will or procure a DNR, too bad. Why should we charge doctors with the ability to commit murder for the lack of preparedness of others?
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Unsane
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 05:20 ET by well99That was special.I guess four and a half years in FRG didnt help.I also dont think the Army should be union.Anyhow I would say when even hydrocodeine cant stop the pain and morphine just puts you in la la land.Your still stuck on someone haveing a accident or something where the para medic or doctor looks at your handy dandy dnr.Things like cancer,fibromyalgia,Rheumatoid Arthritis,and a laundry list of other ailments at least according to doctors can cause someone "extreme suffering".I guess that is similar to haveing a stomach flu.A doctor easing a person out that life is not commiting murder.
Just a note:Not many people are classified terminal because of tummy aches or breaking up with their girlfriends.
Defeatism
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 22:59 ET by Unsane"I guess four and a half years in FRG didn't help." You coulda fooled me.
"I also don't think the Army should be union." Huh? Where did that come from? Are you wanting to discuss something else or are to trying to adroitly change the subject?
Cancer, fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis, and other ailments...AHHH, now we are getting somewhere...disagree. Sounds to me you look at humanity the same way some of us look at dogs. If your parents get arthritis or cancer...well, let's throw up our hands and GIVE UP and put them to sleep! Don't worry, I am sure you can bury them in the backyard.
What defeatist thinking.
"Sick of people, no one's real!
Sick of chicks, their all bitches!
Sick of you, you're too hip,
Sick of life, IT SUCKS!!!
Suicide's an alternative!!!"
- Suicidal Tendencies, "Suicide's an Alternative"
Tell me something...since apparently you were in the military, I'd be willing to bet you took a dim view towards the military's anti-suicide efforts...
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Unsane Go FOAD in a hard way
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 23:25 ET by well99You have no clue you!If you see someone in you family tired of living with the pain day after day.Listen as they cry out in pain while they sleep.They cant even get relieve from pain killers.
Bottom line it will allways be thier choice.My mom is the one who is tired of it.Something a SMF like you wont understand.She is tired of living with the pain.You talking out your ass you worthless piece of shit.She is the one that at times wants it over.It is her choice.That is her right.Not some smart ass punk.
Just a note.I have talked people out of suicide while in the Army.They werent terminal.
It has been nice NB..Have fun.
Sorry to hear, I lost my
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 23:35 ET by general companySorry to hear, I lost my Mother to a long painful illness. It is very difficult, take care.
"Always do right. This will gratify some people, and astonish the rest". Mark Twain
Thank you GC
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 05:58 ET by well99My condolences.I know that had to be hard.
Temper, temper, temper
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 08:00 ET by UnsaneYou have no clue you!If you see someone in you family tired of living with the pain day after day.Listen as they cry out in pain while they sleep.They cant even get relieve from pain killers. Yep, well99, just as the city of New Orleans is the ONLY city in the world that suffers from natural disasters, you seem to think you are the only one in your position. The one grandparent that I met, on my father's side, had one foot in the grave when I met her. Advanced emphysema isn't very fun from the looks of things. Neither is cancer. It wasn't a pretty sight. Also, my parents have begun their declines early on. My father must have a dozen prescriptions. My mother spent the better part of last year hobbling about on a cane, and she's not even 60! I can't even imagine what she'll be like at 80...
Bottom line it will allways be thier choice. It really is too bad that with this sentence you reveal your reading difficulties. There are COUNTLESS ways to end it all if one wants. What I do not understand is why it is necessary to empower doctors with the ability to commit murder. Besides, they are doctors, not veterinarians. My mom is the one who is tired of it.Something a SMF (now, I know what MF means...but the S?) like you wont understand. Yep. Poor well99 is the ONLY one who knows what this is like. He is the ONLY ONE qualified to have an opinion on this subject. Read above. She is tired of living with the pain.You talking out your ass you worthless piece of shit. Wow! Aren't you the very paragon of civility. She is the one that at times wants it over. And what about the times when she doesn't want it over? It is her choice. Read above please. That is her right. I'm afraid not. I'll quote Justice Scalia: when some hotshot attorney argued before the court about a decade ago on a "right to die" case, he said that people always had that right. Scalia immediately retorted "SINCE WHEN?" Not some smart ass punk. Me, a "smart ass punk"? You are such a sweetheart!
I'll re-emphasize for the 5000th time for the reading impaired.
Don't like life? There are many ways to go.
Or, get a DNR. Or, get a living will. VERY simple.
Besides, the one thing that disturbs me most about euthanasia is that people want it for CONVENIENCE. The same reason some want abortion on demand. Life isn't about what is convenient, is it?
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Unsane
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 08:53 ET by well99I just got tired of you minimizeing,misquoting, and distorting everything.So there was no sense showing you respect.You feel the need to lie and twist things go ahead just dont try it with me.See a yutt like you thinks they have all the answers.You probably cant see beyond your own little world.Most of us can.I know others have been in the same situation as my family is going thru or worse.I know what is like to lose four sisters and my dad.I also know others have gone thru the same.It is part of life.The bottom line is you are a waste of time.When people start twisting things I have no use for them.
Sheesh
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 09:42 ET by UnsaneI just got tired of you minimizeing,misquoting, and distorting everything.So there was no sense showing you respect.You feel the need to lie and twist things go ahead just dont try it with me.See a yutt like you thinks they have all the answers. What we have here is perhaps the lengthiest whine on NB. You probably cant see beyond your own little world. This only shows me you cannot read. The experiences I had with my terminally ill grandmother and what my parents are likely facing in the future contradict you. So, NOW who's lying? Most of us can.I know others have been in the same situation as my family is going thru or worse.I know what is like to lose four sisters and my dad.I also know others have gone thru the same.It is part of life. And its depressing as hell. Don't expect me to rush such things along out of CONVENIENCE (via things like, well, euthanasia). The bottom line is you are a waste of time. Then you have to have a lot of time to waste. If I am a waste of time, what is the point of this whiny post? (Nowhere, I noticed, did you address my concerns over the desire for some to have euthanasia for CONVENIENCE.) When people start twisting things I have no use for them. Sorry you feel that way.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Seriously Unsane, I think
Fri, 03/07/2008 - 11:36 ET by BinxlySeriously Unsane, I think the name fits. Anyone who's hobby is solely to be a complete and total jerk on an internet forum is indeed quite 'unsane.' Did you ever wonder what GOOD you could do if you focused your insanely negative energy on, oh, I dunno, something positive? Just a thought.
Also, this might be a big news flash for you, but people disagree. Even with you. It doesn't make them wrong by default. Perhaps in your world. However, if we're playing by the rules of 'your world' please, stay there and the hell outta here. Much like many others on here, all you've ever provided 90% of the time is aggression, arrogance, and downright sophmoric behavior. Perhaps its time to grow up...
binx
Fri, 03/07/2008 - 12:00 ET by shawn228I have been watching the exchange between well and unsane from the beginning. I know full well how he can be. I believe unsane is highly intelligent, he just comes across as .....umm lets just say not polite. I get alone quite well with unsane, so I did not want to get in the middle of his debate with well, because i might have lost my temper.
It would be interesting to see Unsane and Trach go at at. There is not enough text in the world :-)
Lets blame the media
Intelligence does not make
Fri, 03/07/2008 - 16:16 ET by BinxlyIntelligence does not make one exempt from the common courtesy of presenting an opposing opinion in a polite and civil manner. I have also debated with him in the past and I agree, he is indeed rather intelligent. However, as I have stated to him many times, his attitude decieves his intelligence level. You could be the God of all Knowledge and still with that attitude and presentation (if you can even call it that) by which he presents his points, he will not only turn off otherwise interested ears, but will also continue to be seen as acting his shoe size as opposed to his age.
It's a shame too, but knowledge is not something to be flaunted and used to degrade others, it should be spread out in a civil manner in hopes to educate those who are unaware or otherwise mislead. That said, Unsane is yet another who lives in his own world and simply is not mature enough to handle a differing opinion without charging head first into another fist-swingin' and leg-kickin' tantrum, and degrading the intellect of others.
He may be smart, but its no excuse for his childish behavior.
Unsane
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 10:34 ET by shawn228It is very good to see you here again. I was actually missing having you bust my chops.
I hope whavever you are going through right now, things are well.
You are actually not going to get a debate from me today, because you and I have been on this merry go round too many times before. I will try to get someone elses opinion today. Again, I hope all is well :-)
Unsane I take it back
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 20:45 ET by shawn228I would love to debate this with you, even though I sometimes find your posts lengthy, you always answer my questions directly and I don't have to guess where you are coming from.
I believe in individual freedoms. What is wrong with unbundling packages and offering channels that have more of a adult theme to them? Yes kids might be able to get past the password, but it is up to parent to make sure that does not happen.
Rattling on
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 15:43 ET by UnsaneYes, you believe in individual freedoms without any consequences or any consideration for others around you who might be effected.
What is wrong with unbundling cable channel packages completely so that I can only pay for the 500 ESPN channels, Fox Sports Net, CNBC, Fox News, Fox Business Channel, and my local affiliates? That's what I say. By the way, I bet it bothers you that good portions of TX don't even get MTV due to the influence of local Baptist populations. (I'd keep out MTV only because it sucks, not because I necesarily believe it is corrupting America's youth.)
Again, hate to brag, but I don't need porn. All I need is for all news channels to do away with desks and to ban their hottest female anchors from wearing pants (example). :-) For starters. But then, I'm more gentlemanly about such things.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Good to have you back with
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 07:50 ET by JerGood to have you back with your excellent commentaries Unsane...and I couldn't agree more about the Australian Open women's final--Wow!
Jer
(sigh!)
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 23:03 ET by Unsane(closes eyes, re-capturing imagery of the eventual victor of the said match running up and down the court...) :-)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Tennis
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 23:09 ET by Cool ArrowTennis left me when it seemed everybody needed to grunt like Jimmy Connors. Now we've got women letting out those agonizing groans with every stroke.
♣ a seal
Leave the Russian Tennis Hottie alone!!!
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 09:46 ET by UnsaneCool, leave Maria Sharapova (I hate typing her name in Latin letters) alone. As far as I am concerned, she is 100% above any criticism. ESPECIALLY when Mauresmo indicated to my favorite tennis player that her grunting and groaning WORKS because she was crying about it at a press conference.
Besides, Maria is a truly great tennis player.
:-)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
wrong post
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 04:26 ET by MrShymeant to put it under Unsane's, above.... :p
Trach
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 10:58 ET by shawn228Both you and botg are saying I am a hypocrite because I would set my own boundries if I set up the rules at the FCC,
Well I am sorry but I believe excluding child porn, beastility, hate crimes and progams that promote terrorism are a no brainer. Probably because they are illegal.
Trach, I like you. You are a good guy, but this is very frustrating having this debate with you. Why? Because instead of debating about personal freedoms, you choose to nitpick and and ask something far off like, do I want to see a close up of a donkey butt? Or why I like Scarface, Or why I should set up my own boundries.
I told you, I will have that debate with you down the road, but for now lets assume the boundries that I have set are it for now. Can you just debate me on why we should not have these freedoms instead of nitpicking and asking more questions? Thx.
Shawn
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:11 ET bythoughout this forum you:
1) refused to define rights ----- i don't want to talk about the Constitution
2) refused to confront the inconsistancy in the main theme ----- Freedoms (and the conservatives who wish to limit them) while Shawn admits to limits (different limits but still limits, how are limits bad in one case but good in the other)
3) wanted to cover the specific cases w/o grounding ----- you claimed i was avoiding answering specifics but not allowing the basis for the answers. (why are conservatives taking away my rights but no you can't define rights)
4) applied criteria to 'conservatives' but not yourself ----- lets assume the boundries that I have set are it for now. (but conservative boundries bad)
5) complained i was trying to make you look like a hypocrite -----botg are saying I am a hypocrite because I would set my own boundries if I set up the rules ----- Many conservatives want to take away our rights that do nobody any harm except for ourselves.
and you call me evasive?
No Poofdas
sigh botg
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:22 ET by shawn228I said right from the beginning that I would rather talk about things from a moral standpoint as opposed to a judicial one.
I also said that I would be glad to talk about the boundries that I have set at a later time. I was not being evasive, I answered your questions.
Every time I ask you why it concerns you, what I watch on my television, I cannot get a straight answer. You just answer with asking another question.
→ Shawn
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:25 ET by Cool ArrowYou can watch anything you want. As long as it's not porn.
♣ a seal
cool arrow
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:29 ET by shawn228Porn? What kind of degenerate watches that filth? ;-)
you exclude the answer then
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:35 ET byyou exclude the answer then complain that i don't answer.
the answer is your premises are misleading; the old computer term applies GIGO.
you question is similar to "When did you stop abusing children?"
I have patiently shown you numerous times the bias inherient in the framing of your forum and you refuse to own it and move the discussion to an examination of defining 'rights' and proper bounds of them. Again it's like you want me to balance your checkbook while insisting 2+3=7. The exercise is futile until the premise is correct.
No Poofdas
botg
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:42 ET by shawn228Ok, I guess that this is a forum that we cannot see eye to eye on. I have told you criteria, if you do not want to debate more from the moral standpoint, then so be it.
If you want to create your own thread about the constitution and boundries, I will join in, but in the mean time, i'm not going to go round and round this circle again, getting kind of dizzy.
again Shawn
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:47 ET byagain Shawn
ok botg
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:54 ET by shawn228I thought I explained this before but let me give it my best shot, if it does not live up to your standands, then I do not know what else to say.
I feel that if we changed the way we watch tv today and unbungle tv packages we would have more choice, I am not forcing you or anybody to subscribe to a channel that you do not wish to view, I do not see how that in anyway is forcing my will on you.
If I were in charge of the FCC, I would let you subsribe to as many Christian, pro life, anit hippi channels you wish to view. This is giving more freedom, instead of taking it away.
okay
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 13:02 ET byunbundle TV, fine with me
No Poofdas
great botg
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 13:18 ET by shawn228and how do you feel about people picking channels that you do not approve of. Do you feel it is any of your business?
you mean like MSNBC? just
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 13:22 ET byyou mean like MSNBC? just keep it out of my house. And provide for kids not having access.
No Poofdas
No I mean like one of
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 13:26 ET by shawn228No I mean like one of the channels I propose, that would have programmng similar to Sex and the City in terms of nudity and course language.
ibid
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 13:30 ET byibid
No Poofdas
No Shawn. . .
Sun, 02/24/2008 - 18:07 ET by tracheostomyShawn: Both you and botg are saying I am a hypocrite because I would set my own boundries if I set up the rules at the FCC,
I did not say that. Nor did I imply it. I want everything out on the table prior to debate, and so far discussing this subject with you is like nailing Jell-O to a tree.
Shawn: Trach, I like you. You are a good guy, but this is very frustrating having this debate with you.
I have no idea what we're debating. Seriously. Your stance is every bit as evasive as Botg states February 24, 2008 - 11:11 ET. I dunno why you're taking this approach, or what you feel you have to hide.
I really don't actively begin debating until all the cards are out. So far, all I have you on is the unsettling realization on your part that Amsterdam is reforming its traditional take on its famous red-light district. That's all I got and nothing else.
Shawn: Why? Because instead of debating about personal freedoms, you choose to nitpick and and ask something far off like, do I want to see a close up of a donkey butt? Or why I like Scarface, Or why I should set up my own boundries.
Those were all valid questions. Why are you upset that I asked them? "Wanting the option" means also wanting the option for yourself.
Shawn: I told you, I will have that debate with you down the road, but for now lets assume the boundries that I have set are it for now. Can you just debate me on why we should not have these freedoms instead of nitpicking and asking more questions? Thx.
Okay. Flat-out honestly: The question is too vague at the outset. I simply need more specifics to work with, and you're really being a tease about it.
This needs to be re-worked on your part. I can easily assume you're saying one thing and then completely miss where you're coming from. I don't want to make that mistake. I am trying to understand your side completely before I can judge if there are any valid holes in it.
Who else here is going to give you that much credit, Shawn?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
My concept of freedom:
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 16:31 ET by R D HelmFirst of all, I want to define the term “right,” as I think
many confuse this term with “entitlement.” My “rights” do not cost other people
money. It is just that simple. When my “rights” do begin to cost others money,
then they have ceased being rights and are now an “entitlement.” Entitlements
are another discussion entirely, so I will refrain from venturing there.
I base my views on freedom squarely upon the libertarian
model, as this, in my judgment, is the only model going that truly does justice
to my idea of what true freedom actually is, and should be. I am of the
considered belief that people should be able to do whatever they like, as long
as what they do does not interfere with the life, rights or property of other
people. Most people in the country today honestly believe this country is, in
fact, free. Phooey. We are nowhere near.
Every July 4th, I see all these people walking
about with their little flags, enthusiastically waving then and smiling to all
they meet. I see their kids sporting their red, white and blue accessories, the
Styrofoam Flag-patterned coolers, and watch them all stand there clapping and
cheering for the fireworks display they have just witnessed. It’s enough to
make we want to puke.
Let’s face facts here. We live in a nation of busy bodies.
These people aren’t just positioned politically on the left or the right, but
all across the spectrum. There are many among who just cannot keep their noses
out of other people’s business (or wallets). They get an idea in their minds
that they don’t like or approve of what someone else is doing, and then seek
ways to force those acting in ways that do not like to conform to whatever
standards they want. If you have ever run afoul of your friendly neighborhood
Homeowner’s Association Nazis, you know exactly what I am talking about.
For one of many examples, at this time in my home state of
Georgia, I cannot go out on a Sunday and purchase a bottle of wine. Suppose I
have company show up from out of town and I decide to make a nice dinner but I
have no wine in the house? Well, I am essentially SOL here. The reason for this
lunacy is rather simple. Somebody, somewhere, decided that they did not like
the idea that people (like me) might actually purchase alcohol on a (gasp!)
Sunday. They went to their local state legislator and convinced them that my
purchasing alcohol (a legal commodity) on a Sunday was somehow a threat to the
republic, and therefore the state should use the force of law to prevent me
from undertaking what is simply a business transaction on a Sunday. My guess is
that this hideous law was originally conceived by a group of Baptist ministers
somewhere in Central Georgia who have no-doubt well-stocked wine cellars, not
to mention fully supplied wet-bars.
To me, there is no difference between this prohibitive law
and one that a group of Islamist’s might attempt to pass somewhere in this
country (Michigan?) that outlaws the sale of bacon because their religion
believes it a sin to consume pork. If you do not agree, due to your religious
beliefs, or whatever, with someone buying alcohol on a Sunday, then don’t buy
any. If I decide to do so, how is that affecting you, or anyone else, for that
matter?
It is not okay for you to employ the police powers of government
to impose your religious beliefs on others. That is not freedom.
While I have no problem with laws that prevent smoking in
automobiles while children are present, we are now seeing laws passed in this
country that make it illegal for people to smoke in their own homes. Here
again, somebody, somewhere decided that they didn’t want other people smoking
in their very own homes, so they went to the government to impose their beliefs
on others. The Health Nazis and Pleasure Police are now reaching into our
abodes! This should infuriate those who really care about true freedom. The sad
thing is, many of those same nitwits who support this sort of tyranny (and that
is exactly what it is) will be among those aforementioned people cheering on
the fireworks next 4th of July.
Now we have the government forcing us to wear seatbelts in
our cars. Ah, but it saves lives, you say. Perhaps so, but that isn’t the job
of the government. The government’s job is to ensure my rights are protected,
period. If I make the choice not to wear a seatbelt in a car, I may be stupid,
but I am hurting no one other than myself. I feel the same way about mandatory
helmet laws for motorcycle riders, as well. The one catch here is that I do not
support the taxpayers or your fellow insurance customers picking up the tab if
you get injured in an accident due to the fact that you were not wearing a
helmet or a seatbelt. If one is stupid enough to do either of the above, they
should have to sign a waiver.
I could provide hundreds of more examples here without even
breaking a sweat, but I think you are getting the idea of how I view the
concept of freedom, and why I am of the opinion that this nation is becoming
less free as each day passes.
___________________________
Civil unions: I have no problem with homosexuals living
together or whatever, and I am not going to venture into whether or not
homosexuals are born that way or make it a conscious choice to be gay. Suffice
it to say that they are out there, and always will be. I do not, however, feel
that “gay marriage” is necessary, as there are usually no children involved,
which is what the institution of marriage was created for.
As far as having their “civil partners” on their insurance
policies and such, that is getting into “entitlement” territory, but that
should still be up to the individual companies involved, as well as the other
policy holders. If you do not agree with companies deciding to insure gay
partners, then you have several courses of action available to you, such as not
doing business with these companies. The government, particularly at the
federal level, has absolutely no business being involved in this one way or the
other. Neither do we.
I find it astounding that so many are getting their boxers
in a bunch over a group that makes up only 5% of the overall population. Right
now, we are facing a criminal invasion from our southern neighbors which shows
few signs of letting up, a bunch of bass-ackward, 7th Century
illiterate barbarians who are trying to figure out a way to nuke a US city, a
hideous medieval federal tax system that has driven $13 trillion (so far) from
our shores, a bankrupt SS system that is going to soon drag us all into the
financial abyss, a federal government that is having to borrow billions from
the Chicoms just to keep operating, and you are worried that a few gay
Americans are going to wind up on their partner’s insurance policies? Get a
grip.
Euthanasia: As far as having a bunch of Kevorkians (who I
believe to be mentally ill, incidentally) running around offing people in the
middle of the night, well, that gives me the creeps. However, given that the
bulk of the money that is going to be forked out to pay for yours (and my)
health care will occur during the last year or so of our lives, I am not all that
sure that keeping us going via artificial means is the correct course of
action.
As someone who is probably going to be faced with this
gut-wrenching decision in the very near future, do I have a right to impose
such a crippling financial burden on the rest of my family? Do I have a right
to force others outside of my family to foot the bills here, just to buy a few
more months of life for family members who are going to die anyway? I don’t
think I do.
It is really easy to say that we should go to whatever
means required to keep the terminally ill alive just because they are alive.
Usually, those who say this aren’t facing the financial ruin that often
accompanies the treatment of terminally ill people. Sure, there were elderly
relatives of mine who passed that I miss horribly, but would keeping them
around a few more months be right, particularly when you consider the
exponential rise in the cost of doing so? If you do, then PM me, and I will let
you know where you can begin mailing the checks to.
Adult entertainment: A no-brainer here for sure. What people
watch in the privacy of their own homes is their business. If they choose to
view adult films in their homes, they are in no way endangering the lives,
rights or property of other people. It is not my business, your business, or
the government’s business. If you see these materials as being immoral, then
don’t view them.
If you do not want your children seeing this stuff, be it
on TV, the Internet, or via whatever media, then take it upon yourself to see
that they don’t. There are all kinds of technologies out there that can be
employed to keep this stuff away from children. Use them. Do not tell me how
conservative you are, and how opposed you are to the creeping “nanny state”
then turn right around and tell me that you want the government to act as your
nanny. You brought those children into the world, not the government. They are
your responsibility.
Oh, for some of you parents who are upset that your child
saw a (gasp!) exposed breast on the tube as they walked by the den one evening,
then the next day you go out to buy yet another violent video game for that Xbox
360 you bought for that same child just a couple of months ago, why are you
complaining? And I know some parents who have done this. Several times.
Drug use: The hideous, poorly thought-out “War on Drugs”
must end. There is no shortage to the atrocities that government has committed
when it comes to our rights as citizens, all in the name of fighting this
stupid war. We have spent billions on this insanity, and have made not so much
as a measurable dent in their use. The parallels between this and prohibition
are startling, yet we continue to throw piles of money down this rat-hole.
All we have really managed to do is drive up the street price,
which attracts more players, and gotten a lot of innocent Americans killed,
either in the crossfire in the streets or when the police storm the wrong house
and shoot eighty year-old grandmothers who they feel are resisting unduly. We
have filled our prisons to capacity, all because these people did something
many of us do not like and don’t think they should be doing. Throwing people in
jail for non-violent drug use clearly does not work. Treatment stands a much
better chance here. Our prisons should be reserved for violent criminals who
are a threat to other people, not some guy sitting in his own house burning a
joint one afternoon. Clearly, the prohibition fiasco taught us nothing as a
nation.
Prostitution: Would someone please explain to me why it is
that, if two strangers meet and just happen to have sex, that is okay in the eyes of the government. However, if any money changes hands in the process, then here comes the government, in the form of the police, and throws both
parties into the slammer? How much money and precious law-enforcement resources have been wasted here?
-Well, I guess that about covers it.
Proud member of the "Rough Republican Attack Machine."
interesting
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 16:42 ET by TruthMongerso for example, then - what a ped couple does under the privacy of a bridge or something like that would be fine with you, then? am i correct?
TM,
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 21:43 ET by R D HelmThat is not what I am saying at all.
As for the term "ped couple," I can only infer that, in your above scenario, both participants are not yet of legal age. What, exactly, is the government supposed to do about that? Place cameras under every bridge? Pay the "hall monitor" crowd to spy and their fellow teens? What?
Sounds like a parental issue to me.
Proud member of the "Rough Republican Attack Machine."
i know you're not this stupid
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 16:34 ET by TruthMongerped couple: adult of legal age with minor
"What people
watch in the privacy of their own homes is their business."
so does this apply to kiddie porn? ped porn? or not? if not then why?
morally speaking from your libertarian POV there should be no difference between this couple and a gay couple
unless you use your particular personal morality to create one
in other words your "moral comfort zone" is no better than anyone else's by your libertarian logic
apples to apples:)
Apples to Apple seeds
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 21:58 ET by shawn228Regular porn= consenting adults of legal age.
Ped porn= not legal age or old enough to vote.
Come of TM, I don't think you should attend those anger management classes anymore, they are making you kind of loony.
Geez, Shawn.
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 22:13 ET by tracheostomyFLIP: This isn't about legality botg, it's about morality.
FLOP: This isn't about morality TM, it's about legality.
Do you remember what I said in the chat about being honest with yourself? You must think we're all stupid.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
trach, it is not the government's job to enforce morality.
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 23:56 ET by R D HelmThat exclusive domain is God's, and his alone.
Morality has different meanings to different people. What you may define as immoral, others may see as perfectly normal.
In any event, people using government to enforce their definition of morality on other people who are no threat to the life, liberty or property of others, is not freedom.
It is tyranny.
Barack Obama has no middle name. Just ask John McCain.
RD,
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 00:06 ET by tracheostomyRD: Trach, it is not the government's job to enforce morality. That exclusive domain is God's, and his alone.
Sorry RD. Romans 13:3-5 says otherwise.
And I was not about to bring that up, but you forced my hand.
From the beginning, I genuinely wanted to find out where Shawn was coming from, but he kept hedging as if I were trying to "get him" or something.
My methodology is fairly consistent and transparent. So I don't understand what the OP has to hide here.
RD: Morality has different meanings to different people. What you may define as immoral, others may see as perfectly normal.
That's why I opened with an attempt to find out Shawn's take on it. If we could determine what his definition was, we could understand his complaint.
RD: In any event, people using government to enforce their definition of morality on other people who are no threat to the life, liberty or property of others, is not freedom.
By "people" do you mean officials that we elect?
Theft is certainly a moral issue.
Murder is certainly a moral issue.
False witness is certainly a moral issue.
Where do you draw the line RD?
Which is a moral, but not a sin, whereas this is a crime, but not a moral? This is a sin but either-or?
C'mon.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
trach,
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 00:28 ET by R D HelmMurder is certainly a moral issue.
As I said in my original comment, I base my concept of freedom on the libertarian model, which means no one is permitted to do things that interfere with the life, liberty, or property of others. As a libertarian, I believe the only acceptable reasons for taking the life of another human being is either in a time of war, in self-defense, or in defense of another innocent human being.
The murder of another human being is the ultimate infringement on that person's life and liberty, would you not agree?
False witness is certainly a moral issue.
Correct, and those who lie in a way that adversely affects the lives of others in any way should be dealt with most harshly.
Barack Obama has no middle name. Just ask John McCain.
RD
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 23:46 ET bybeing somewhat radical i will postulate:
"ALL LAWS ARE LEGISLATION OF MORALITY"
name any law that is not based on an 'it is good' or 'it is bad' statement.
EX: Speeding and traffic laws (it is bad that people get hurt in accidents)
EX 2: as RD says here sex should only be between consenting adults (it is bad to have sex without consent) a moral position.
So RD you agree with my radical statement?
No Poofdas
Okay, RD. Now you're just
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 00:41 ET by tracheostomyOkay, RD. Now you're just being confusing.
You either base your concept of freedom on a libertarian form of government, or an anarchist one.
Please clarify.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
trach, I am not being confusing at all.
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 02:12 ET by R D HelmLibertarians are not anarchists. They (we) live by a very strict set of rules.
Anarchists could very well decide to ignore the rights of others in their decisions. They could decide murder is okay, and they could do so on a moment's notice. They could also, on a whim, decide that other people have a right to your money and property, much as the democrats and the republicans have already decided.
True libertarians would never, ever, go along with this. The core belief of libertarians is that the individual has primacy over that of any government, as long as that individual does not interfere with the life, liberty, or property of others. If they do interfere with the life, liberty, or property of others, then the government lands on them like a ton of bricks.
Anarchists do not abide by this premise.
Barack Obama has no middle name. Just ask John McCain.
No problem RD, thanks.
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 02:19 ET by tracheostomySince your rules are a set of moral codes, then I'll wait for your response to botg.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
libertarians
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 14:58 ET by TruthMongerthey don't see their rules as "moral codes"
they are "just normal" or "logical" or "common sense"
in other words if they "have no problem" with something then everyone should be "just as tolerant" of the same stuff and simply ACCEPT THEIR PREFERENCES AS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE FOR EVERYONE - that's "true liberty" and anything else is "tyranny"
center of the universe anyone? it's always a fun ride
RD
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 02:40 ET by Cool ArrowThere is one religion that believes relations with farm animals and "thighing" infants is OK.
If the animal doesn't mind, and the baby won't remember, should these practices be legal?
Or should we legislate based on morality?
Cool,
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 02:57 ET by R D HelmAs animals are not human, they are incapable of "consent." That means, to loosely quote Ian Anderson, casual sex with farm animals is out of the question.
As for the infant thing, by definition, they are not "consenting adults." As such, they deserve every protection there is.
And speaking as a libertarian, as well as the proud uncle of three nieces and a nephew, if I ever caught someone trying that with an infant, well, let's just say they best pray the cops get to them before I do.
Barack Obama has no middle name. Just ask John McCain.
RD
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 03:19 ET by Cool ArrowI'm pretty sure I could fit some pretty disgusting stuff into your premise:
"as long as that individual does not interfere with the life, liberty, or property of others"
And it would take moral, not legal argument to prevail against it.
Cool,
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 03:29 ET by R D HelmYou probably can.
I should have elaborated a little more on what I said earlier, and will do so tomorrow. My bad, as it was a little simplistic.
I was out in the yard for three hours earlier dealing with a backed-up sewer line. It is currently 25 degrees here, and the new furnace will not be installed until tomorrow morning.
I am a little off my game tonight. Okay, a lot off it.
Barack Obama has no middle name. Just ask John McCain.
RD...I've only skimmed this
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 03:40 ET by JerRD...I've only skimmed this thread, but, so far, I don't see any problem with your game.
I'm sitting here feeling that same 25 degrees [with my furnace on its last legs]. I may be PMing you after you get your new one installed.
Jer
. . .
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 04:13 ET by tracheostomy[Deleted by author due to inability to cite or link to claims.]
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
It does seem odd, but,
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 04:14 ET by JerIt does seem odd, but, then, who are we to judge...the vastness of the land, an unrelenting solitude, a frayed volume of Browning love sonnets, and, well, suddenly your horse is not just a horse.
Jer
Jer,
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 04:12 ET by R D HelmLOL-Darned cold night in Georgia, ain't it?
Glad we didn't lose power in that awful storm yesterday morning, as I have about seven electric heaters going.
I have seen horizontal rain before, but that horizontal hail was somenting else. At one point, I was about to grab everybody and head for the basement. :-O
All I lost was one section of gutter and a few tree limbs, but there is pine straw all over the place. Pretty mild damage compared to what happened to others around East Cobb.
The good news is that all of my grills survived. :-)
Barack Obama has no middle name. Just ask John McCain.
RD...It was pretty
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 04:19 ET by JerRD...It was pretty wild...several streets shut down near me. We never lost power, but Comcast was on the fritz much of yesterday. And since I "brilliantly" now have everything bundled with them, I was pretty much out of commission for several hours.
Jer
Jer,
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 01:40 ET by R D HelmIt is truly amazing how so many people cannot fathom the concept of true freedom. It really isn't all that complicated, actually.
Notice I was immediately accused of advocating adult sex with minors above. That was a leap of large proportions, as I would never, ever advocate such a thing.
As a (somewhat conservative) libertarian, not only do I support the rights of Americans who are actually able to speak on their own behalf, I doubly support the rights of young Americans who cannot speak for themselves.
Seems simple enough to me. Perhaps it is just too simple for some.
Maybe I've read too much history and should just throw in the towel and "conform."
Nahh, that just isn't my nature. LOL.
And I am sure you have seen the rants against my support of the Fair Tax here. Damn, if that doesn't represent "freedom" I honestly don't know what does.
All I can say is, I try very hard to live my life in such a way as to not interfere with the lives of others. I am the ultimate believer in the concept of "live and let live." It astounds me to no end that so many cannot seem to grasp that fundamental concept.
John McCain is a liberal. He said so himself.
Unfair Tax
Sun, 03/02/2008 - 14:36 ET by UnsaneAnd I am sure you have seen the rants against my support of the Fair Tax here. Damn, if that doesn't represent "freedom" I honestly don't know what does. Whenever the tax proposal is called a "Fair Tax", chances are, as in this case, that it is VERY UNfair. Whenever a tax proposal absolutley has to be labeled a "fair tax", chances are, it is NOT fair.
Sales taxes disproportionately screw the poorest among us.
And sorry, the states aren't just going to stop charging sales taxes out of the kindness of their hearts. Hence, you are asking me to pay 30-31% on virtually everything I buy. No thanks.
And, what shall the government do when the consumers, who drive the economy, start slamming their wallets shut? (Spend less? HA! Not when they can run up the debt as much as they want!)
I'll have to rip that silly proposal to shreds at some point when I have more time...
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
in a civilization - which
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 14:53 ET by TruthMongerin a civilization - which means a group of people living under shared laws, someone's morality is always being forced on someone else - it is impossible to avoid
you're just as intolerant as me or anyone else - just in your own special way - we tolerate different things
trach
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 23:58 ET by shawn228With all due respect, could you please stop answering for other people I ask questions to? Look I'm no prude and other do it as well, but you seem to poke your nose in every single question I ask somebody else. Candance, botg, TWC, Truthmonger. I know you get off on attention, but please wait your turn.
thx Trach
Shawn: With all due
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 00:11 ET by tracheostomyShawn: With all due respect, could you please stop answering for other people I ask questions to?
WHY SHAWN!??? Where's the rule for that Shawn? You get to dictate all the rules one way?
Are we talking? Am I interrupting a verbal conversation or something?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
You seem to answer for
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 00:16 ET by shawn228You seem to answer for other people whenever I ask them a question. I imagine you are like this in real life with you really friends. You the one that interupts people when they speak and cannot get in word, when trach is around.
I can understand someone interejectin a few times I ask somebody something, but it seems you can't wait your turn. You said you would leave this thread if I politely ask, but would find that to be rude, so i am politely asking if you would please wait your turn.
At least you kept your post short. Thx for that;-)
Shawn: You seem to answer
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 00:37 ET by tracheostomyShawn: You seem to answer for other people whenever I ask them a question. I imagine you are like this in real life with you really friends. You the one that interupts people when they speak and cannot get in word, when trach is around.
In a verbal conversation, I would wait for them to get their reply in before submitting my statement.
This format accomodates both. =)
They can get their reply in at any time. No one's being shut out or stepped on because it's a written format.
And you will not misrepresent the format. This is not a coffee table discussion or an open-mike forum.
Further, the substance of the statements matter more than the names behind them. This is not a popularity contest.
Shawn: At least you kept your post short. Thx for that;-)
No problem. Happy to bend over backwards when no one else will.
Oh BTW, can I have a turn to dictate etiquette to you now, and ever-so-sweetly ask you to clean up the specifics of your original post? I find it (as well as some of your other posts) rather vague and misleading.
That is, unless you intended to come across that way.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Ok Trach
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 01:12 ET by shawn228Fair enough, ask me any question you like, I would like a favor in return. I am going to reply to both TWC and Binxly, I know it will be very hard for you not to get in the middle, because I know you like to heard/read, but please let them answer for themselves, then jump in afterwards okay? I don't mind people jumping in, just let the person answer for themselves first okay? Is that fair?
That could take up to an
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 01:30 ET by tracheostomyThat could take up to an entire day, then the caravan would have since moved on.
Further, why are you so determined to single out certain individuals? Why do you want their answers exclusively?
I promise to do it just this one time for Binxly, but probably not TWC*. I only "butt in" on a question if I know the subject is misrepresented or is missing information vital to the topic. If the premise of your statement is clean and clear in regards to Christianity (and not your interpretation of it), then I'll probably leave it alone.
If you are not deliberately trying to confuse the issue, then I'm doing you a favor by adding clarification where needed.
-PJ
*Your stated target, with whom I have a shared personal interest
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
trach
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 01:35 ET by shawn228Once again, you are more than free to jump in, just let them get in a word before you do so. that should not be that hard
Read your question Shawn. . .
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 02:15 ET by tracheostomyAnd actually, it's very similar to something I had planned on asking him myself.
Only you volunteered to step in place of my hypothetical.
I'm wondering what he'll answer too.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
???????????????
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 02:20 ET by shawn228I thought I was talking you trach. If you were a super villian, I think you would be the Riddler. Off to bed
Good night.
Clarification
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 02:29 ET by tracheostomySorry. I forgot to name names there didn't I? My bad.
I read your question to TWC. . .but to avoid annoying you, I posted here. =)
Win-win.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Thank you Trach, Just one
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 11:49 ET by shawn228Thank you Trach, Just one response from the person I ask a i question to and you can jump in, more than fair imo. It is better than asking you to leave the thread, which you said you would do if I asked right?
I am interested in your opinion, just not in every single post on the thread.
LOL, no problem Shawn. I
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 17:54 ET by tracheostomyLOL, no problem Shawn. I stayed out. And even without my participation, you're back to square one with TWC!
What are you gonna do now, side-step the question again? This is the third person that has asked you for the same essential clarifications.
And it's just as fair of a request to ask you to go back to the drawing board and come back later. You're all_over the place with this, and this is reflected by the responses in this thread.
Otherwise, it can be safely assumed you're deliberately trying to confuse us.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Awesome Post RDH!!
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 22:05 ET by shawn228Leave it to TM to come up with some apples and oranges comparision.
shawn,
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 22:14 ET by R D HelmI, too, am a little puzzled exactly as to how what "consenting adults" do behind closed doors somehow morphed into "teens under a bridge." Of course, when I was that age....well, nevermind.
I apologize for the rough format, as it was written in Word and I didn't have a great deal of time to write it, nor edit it out once I put it in here.
Aside from our furnace fiasco (which we are still trying to get resolved), my car developed a major electrical short on Saturday due to the high volume of rain we had. Fried the electric door locks, it did.
Believe me, you haven't lived until you try running down a short in a 27/yo European model Mercedes. :-O
Proud member of the "Rough Republican Attack Machine."
Huh?
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 09:50 ET by UnsaneWe're borrowing billions from China?
Sure, it's feel-good populist shrieking, but I sure would like to see how a nation whose GDP isn't even a trillion can loan to a country whose GDP is around $20 trillion.
One-third of our debt is foreign-owned. I haven't looked at the stats for awhile, but everytime I have looked, Japan leads the league tables in ownership of Treasuries. Yet, I don't see people whining about borrowing from Japan (oh wait, that was back in the 1980s).
Who are we going to whine about borrowing from in 20 more years? Just follow the populist rhetoric, I guess.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
My $0.02 in short Shawn
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 17:49 ET by The Wicked ConservativeThe reason I believe some people still resist a fully permissive society is the last remaining remnants of the fact that America is a Christian country. Despite all the revisionist history taught now and the vitriol from those who hate Jesus, America was founded for Christian freedom. Every, every, every single thing you advocate as a personal freedom leads to personal destruction. Christians are supposed to know and support the will of God. His chief will is that none should perish, or more bluntly stated, go to hell. If I say "go ahead kill yourself with drugs or suicide or go ahead kill your baby." I'm endorsing your ticket to hell. It's my first priority mission as a Christian to try to stop you from going to hell. I'll never condone it.
"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Winston Churchill
Thank you TWC
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 22:12 ET by shawn228First it is nice seeing you again, it has been a long time . Second This is exactly the type of debate I was waiting for. Unlike the other Christians here that want to nitpick the constitution or my boundries, or why I feel the way I feel you actually present the Christian point of view.
What I am about to say might sound condesending, but I swear on my life it is meant in a good way. I appreciate you looking out for mine and everyones salvation, you are selfless in the fact that you everyone to be saved and that is very admirable.
The thing is even though this country was founded on Christian principals, there is also a thing in the Bible that preaches free will. If you don't succeed in converting a few heathens, then is there really any skin off your back?
Why is it so important to you, other peoples salvation when you should be worrying about you and ones you love?
Now it finally comes out. . .
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 23:17 ET by tracheostomyShawn: First it is nice seeing you again, it has been a long time . Second
This is exactly the type of debate I was waiting for. Unlike the other
Christians here that want to nitpick the constitution or my boundries,
or why I feel the way I feel you actually present the Christian point
of view.
Exactly. What you're really saying is that this was the soft target you preferred to answer all along, right? C'mon. . .be honest.
Shawn: What I am about to say might sound condesending, but I swear on my
life it is meant in a good way.
How can sounding condescending be meant in a good way to anyone other than yourself?
Shawn: I appreciate you looking out for mine
and everyones salvation, you are selfless in the fact that you everyone
to be saved and that is very admirable.
This is where I come in Shawn. I am a Christian and not a moralist. I do not believe salvation begins with your adherance to certain traditional mores. A "theocracy-by-proxy" won't solve the problem either.
Further, I don't believe this nation was founded entirely on Christian principles, because if it was, they wouldn't have been so quick to throw out 1 Peter 2:13; 17.
However, those principles that the nation was founded on I know can only be sustained if the country as a whole follows an underlying moral code. And that's starting to fail because of man's free will.
Therefore, when you say you want to debate from a moral POV, I'm all for it, the only fair question is, "Who's morals?"
Since you appear to be so ready to look for traditional American morals as a punching bag, the only logical conclusion is, "If he has such a problem with it, then what moral standard is Shawn looking for to replace it with?"
There's a very real difference between the values of a Christian and "because that's the way we always did things." One has a basis, the other is just an appeal to a certain crowd.
"What does this tradition mean, Dad?"
To answer "I dunno," is where one generation loses it for another. There's your 20th Century Evangelical in a nutshell. It's not completely Christian, and therefore it's a strawman on your part Shawn.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Guess I'll jump in too, the water looks just fine :)
Mon, 03/03/2008 - 13:23 ET by BinxlyShawn: What I am about to say might sound condesending, but I swear on my
life it is meant in a good way.
How can sounding condescending be meant in a good way to anyone other than yourself?
-Trach
He is stating that many people just might be waiting to 'nitpick' at something and take it the wrong way on purpose because they happen to disagree with the initial point-maker's politic, school of thought, or perhaps just as a reaction to their disliking a view other than their own being displayed. MANY things, taken out of context, can go from flattering or appreciative to malicious and rude.
I do agree with you Trach about the slippery slope of needing a moral code, and if the current one is failing, who decides the new rules? Where I do differ with you, however, is yes, Christian law does indeed have basis. However, while most rules explain in plain detail the reason for their existence and create quite a good argument for them, there are still some that are indeed a case of 'because God said so apparently...'
For someone who is attempting to be fair minded across the board, both socially, fiscally, and spiritually, I can empathize with Shawn's problem with certain current 'laws' that while may not be defined laws are sort of an unspoken code of ethics that people are expected to adhere to here in America. Again, I have no problems with the rules that make sense, but the ones again, that exist in a 'because God said so' form, I am more apt to wonder if there were ulterior motives or reasons for such laws. I touched the base of one of those such problems and a theory of why it was created in another thread I believe.
binxly
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 00:47 ET by shawn228Trach is no longer participating in this thread, because he promised to leave this thread If I asked him to and he is keeping his word, which I am grateful for. I consider him a gentleman for honoring his word.
My point binx is not matter what our religions are, Christianity, Muslim, Buddist or Scientology, I believe it is quite arrogant to tell everybody one religion is better than another one.
As for as morality goes, If one does not find adult entertainment moral, that is fine. What right does the person that does not like adult entertainment to tell someone else not to view it?
I'm not talking about Christianity, I'm talking in general. If we truly are the land of free, why do we have all these rules about forcing people to not do things that do not affect anybody else but themselves.
You are obviously very sympathetic to the lesbian/gay lifestyle, You do not find that immoral, but you seem to judge adult entertainment as immoral. Does it affect you directly?
Lets blame the media
Shawn, here's where I
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 18:08 ET by BinxlyShawn, here's where I justify that.
When the act of sex is trivialized, it becomes more acceptable. I am NOT against homosexual love, because as much as I used to judge against it, thinking it was merely a sub-culture that simply enjoyed sex as sport, not expression of monogamous intimacy, and luckily, I was proven wrong. I have seen many 'normal' homosexuals who are just like any other heterosexual, they have a job, they are great in conversation, don't wear their sexuality on their sleeves, and ideally just want to find the one person to love for the rest of their lives. The only difference is, that 'one' happens to be of the same sex. I'll admit, there's alot about it I don't 'get' but then again, they probably don't 'get' heterosexuals either. Its a mere difference of preference.
However, when sex, as I said, is made into sport or trivialized and a 'one night stand' becomes as acceptable as the 'innocent first kiss' that is when you have problems. People will see sex as merely a way to 'release.' They have no respect for the others they are with and it becomes second nature for future generations, de-sensitized to what 'sex' and intimacy is, to simply assume being permiscuous is not only acceptable, but actually 'the cool thing to do.' I don't care if adults smoke, but I have a big problem with pro smoking imagery being sold to children.
I'll be frank here, do most people marry the first person they sleep with? Probably not. Lord knows I already fudged that one up myself and I'm *easily* the most 'prudish' of my peer group, which oddly enough is comprised of some people who are also quite prudish themselves.
The issue here is not morals. For me it certainly is. However, for the sake of those not sharing my morals, allow me to paint my rationale for even the atheistic to see how selling sex as a 'game' or 'sport' is dangerous. Everyone knows permiscuous people tend to be at higher risk for STD transmission, as obviously, the more people you are having intercourse with, the higher your odds of choosing an infected mate increases.
Then there is the issue of pregnancy. Let's face it, condoms break. Diaphrams fail from time to time. Even those hip, upbeat commercials about birth control that is 99.9% effective is still known to fail. I would know, an ex of a good friend of mine now has a child with a junkie because she figured there was no harm getting sloshed and shacking up with a known heroin abuser because, 'well duh! He's sooo hot and yes Im using him, but there's no risk, Im on the pill and he's using a condom!' And indeed, even with both elements in play, she still became pregnant.
So.....Not only does showing sex in a light that says 'everyone does it, when the mood strikes, just jump in! Who cares if you don't like them! Not gonna call them for a second date?! Who cares! You gotta get your rocks off!' lead impressionable minds to condone such an attitude, but its even seen as chic and cool to do so. Again, I'm not to terribly far out of the youth culture at 24 years old so I would know. This leads to a more permissable attitude to 'no strings attached' sex and therefore greater risk of our future generations to contract and transmit STDs, unwanted pregnancies, and also a decline in (yes I said it) moral values within the concept of a union of love between two humans to share throughout their lives and passing on their parental knowledge and guidance to the next generation.
Like I said, I don't care if porn is on TV, many families today have HBO and the like, and kids today aren't stupid. They know what comes on after seeing 'Sexual Content' in the rating intro of the next movie comming up. Therefore it DOES rely on the parents. HOWEVER, when I see a channel like 'ABC Family,' a channel who's own moniker identifies itself as 'family friendly' or 'made for the family,' it bothers me to no end to see shows that portray and even glorify pre-marital sex, infidelity, and many other issues that some children are simply far too young to experience. It might even make me more at ease if these shows had some overall moral that shows that infidelity is wrong, that honesty with your mate is key, or that sex should be saved until at LEAST after the first week you begin dating, then I'd have less issue with it. However, still on these 'family' channels, the main characters burn through sex partners like no tomorrow. They cheat, they lie, and yet there's no focus on the negative of that.
Again, Im not against sex or even sexual imagery for adults, Im just saying some people are easily impressionable and, while Im not foolish enough to think all or even most will wait till marriage for sex, as I said, it'd be nice if they at *least* waited till the second week.
Sex is about an emotional and intimate connection with someone. Not about using someone's body as your 'love pillow' because you're antsy in the pantsy. :-P
binxly
Wed, 03/05/2008 - 02:19 ET by shawn228You bring up some excellent points. Some posters can learn alot from your posting style. I see your point of view about teens seeing sex as as casual and there are many problem these days with sexual diseases.
The thing is porn should not be viewed by people under 18. If people are over the 18 of decide to have sexual relations with each other, that is their right to do so, even if they are not married.
Yes there is increased chance of sexual diseases from having mulitple partners, just like there is a chance of lung cancer from smoking. Even though I quit, I sure don't want anyone to tell me not to smoke.
I don't know if I am going off topic or not, but i am also concerned about the far right that want to emphasize abstinence only programs. From what I heard, these progams are not even close to working. This is something our tax dollars are funding btw . I don't think anyone disagrees not having sex is the best method, but if they are going to have sex anyway is there really anything wrong with discussing other means of precaution?
So yes I concede maybe porn might take down morality slightly, but with my idea, you would not have to subscibe to any channel you don't like. It should be nobodys business what you watch on tv"within the law"
Lets blame the media
I certainly don't object
Wed, 03/05/2008 - 02:48 ET by JerI certainly don't object to an emphasis on abstinence, but not as an exclusive approach. We should recall that in the early days of World War II, the U.S. military tried the "just say no" route, and was soon faced with a near epidemic of STD among the troops deployed overseas. As a consequence, a new policy was adopted whereby condoms were dispensed to all armed forces personnel, and this proved to be remarkably successful in controlling the "problem".
Jer
busting a myth
Wed, 03/05/2008 - 12:46 ET by candanceIt's kind of a myth that abstinence programs are useless. When kids stick with them they have been seen to show success.
Here is a link and here is an article with some good information.
Would you be cool with conservative parents getting their kids to opt out of sex education? Why does it have to be required through tax dollars in the first place?
candance
Thu, 03/06/2008 - 00:47 ET by shawn228I read your links and maybe some people have benifited from abstinence only progams but imo, they have been a colossal failure. When was he last time you ever heard of a state turning down money? Well a staggering
17 states have refused free money for abstinence only progams
Like I said before abstinence only is the best approach, but there is nothing wrong with educating about other alternatives if they decided not to use that approach. We never heard of children being disobediant have we? :-)
I would not have any problems with conservatives pulling their kids our of class for this, because it is their right as parents.
I have no problem having our tax dollars going to this.
What he said
Thu, 03/06/2008 - 00:55 ET by Free StinkerAbstinence works every time it's tried. -- Rush Limbaugh
I Love being married! Read Song of Solomon 3:2 --Free Stinker
freestinker
Thu, 03/06/2008 - 02:17 ET by shawn228Both you and I are parents Free. Would I want my child to use abstinence in the teen years? Absolutely!!
The thing is, you know as well as I do, kids don't always listen to their parents. I would want my child to know about condoms. Condoms break and they do not prevent against some sexual diseases, but they 98 percent effective against pregnancy and AIDs. It is not perfect, but it is better than the altenative.
Lets blame the media
Abstinence is great to preach, but you must still teach
Thu, 03/06/2008 - 10:58 ET by BinxlyThere is a simple solution, education of ALL. I *personally* believe the purposeful censorship of information that can in the long run *help* the overall health of a human individual is not only inhumane, but completely absurd. To refuse sexual education in hopes to keep the illusion of the 'debutante' or 'pure' youth, well that's just crazy. I didn't have sex till I was 18. I only made that choice because I did indeed feel that was the person I was to marry. However, she saw differently and we went our seperate ways. If I had not been told of condoms, I would not only have risked getting her pregnant, but would have DEFINATELY not been lucky enough to avoid a particularly nasty STD she happened to contract during her time of sneaking around on me. Not that I would be so dense about condom or sex education had I NOT recieved such education in school, but again, I was 18. What if we had met at 15? I can assure you, I would not have been so responsible nor as educated without school sex ed programs.
Again, I think we should preach abstinence, but at the same time, if we think restricting sexual education about contraceptives, overall education about each gender's sexual organs and their function, and the greater risk of STD transmission among homosexual men, etc. This education, along with driving the point home that the only TRUELY 'safe' sex is no sex at all (abstinence,) I think that is not only the most safe way to present the youth with preventative information, but also the most respectful way of approaching the subject matter. It would be insanely disrespectful to knowingly withold information from children who, without such information, could make mistakes due to ignorance to certain facts.
Overall, I'm more with Shawn on this particular issue.
Trach
Mon, 02/25/2008 - 23:54 ET by shawn228First of all, my post and question was for TWC.
Second of all, I resent the implication that I was trying to be condesending to TWC, he is definitely on of my favorite people on this site. I can give as good as I get, but he has never been disrespectful and I meant every word of what I said.
Third of all, he is not a soft target. My good friend Blonde gave me some advice one night. I was getting into it with someone. She is not one to mince words and she told me I should log off for the night because I was acting like a troll. I asked her why I was acting like a troll. She told me because I was doing what liberals do, keep answering questions with asking my own questions. I resented it at first but then it made a lot of sense.
I know when I patiently tell you how I would reshape the FCC and exactly what the boundries are, you have to go off and ask inane questions. Why would you want to look at a donkey butt? What would a un cut version of Scaface be like? What morals are you talking about shawn? Why would you stop with your boundries shawn? I like debate and after debating you, I understand Blondes frustrations.
If you want to debate one of my points without asking 3 of your own, I am more than willing.
Shawn: First of all, my
Tue, 02/26/2008 - 01:38 ET by tracheostomyShawn: First of all, my post and question was for TWC.
This is an open thread; open to all responses. Furthermore, statements like. . .
"Unlike the other Christians here that want to nitpick the constitution or my boundries, or why I feel the way I feel you actually present the Christian point of view."
. . .is just totally asking for it. You're essentially saying, "You can't respond to this PJ, even though I was referring to you and botg the whole time."
Shawn: Second of all, I resent the implication that I was trying to be condesending to TWC, he is definitely on of my favorite people on this site.
This statement is a defense of the "It sounds like patronization, but it's really not." disclaimer. You're literally saying "mind your own business" and on top of it, "Don't go away mad, just go away." Who was disrespectful first, hmm?
So the question here is, what exactly did you mean by ". . .you should be worrying about you and ones you love--" in a good way? You're telling him to worry more about his own backyard. How else can this be interpreted, other than, "mind your own business Fundie," hm?
We all get it. You "feel" you're being oppressed on a public forum. What a joke. Just lookit that eeeevil conservative and his dangerously oppressive opinions. . .someone needs to be brave enough to tell him to just mind his own business, and throw off this oppressive yoke of online arguments (gasp). What media slave-drivers those Christians are, forcing you to listen to their opinions!
Shawn: I can give as good as I get, but he has never been disrespectful and I meant every word of what I said.
I'm glad you stand by your statements. Actually, I should say I'm glad you've actually found something to stand by. I was getting really annoyed at the sheer amount of two-stepping that has been done up to this moment.
Also, claims of "disrespect" are pretty selective around here. That is pretty subjective as well, and can be used as a convenient accusation when needed.
Shawn: Third of all, he is not a soft target.
He's your convenient caricature of a Christian, and he is a fine example of how you stated you wanted the thread to run.
"This is exactly the type of debate I was waiting for."
". . .or why I feel the way I feel you actually present the Christian point of view."
I'm sorry, but you don't have the luxury to pick and choose your opponents like this.
Shawn: I know when I patiently tell you how I would reshape the FCC and exactly what the boundries are, you have to go off and ask inane questions. Why would you want to look at a donkey butt? What would a un cut version of Scaface be like? What morals are you talking about shawn? Why would you stop with your boundries shawn? I like debate and after debating you, I understand Blondes frustrations.
I have explained my stance. It is not empty trolling or a simplistic diversionary tactic. You want to argue (something vague) on a platform of (equally vague) "moral" grounds. Either you want a real discussion here, or you want a made-to-order tackling dummy. We are in fact, very patiently waiting for you to make up your mind on this.
My initial "what morals" question remains hanging there, no matter what color you want to paint it. It's not trolling. because there are many-many possible answers to it, but you deliberately want it to remain ambiguous. . .or not. It's your choice and you're needlessly dragging the thread out.
Shawn: If you want to debate one of my points without asking 3 of your own, I am more than willing.
Oh. So you want me to rush in blindly like a some moron and assume what you meant by, "to a point drug use" and "adult entertainment," when you add a password exception to it.
You don't get to write the rules of the debate either, Shawn. My questions are both honest and are at the same time honestly appealing to more information than I am getting at the outset. Dirty pool old man.
Then you turn around and accuse me of liberal tactics. Brilliant.
To top it off, you either overlooked or ignored my statements above that bring "American principles" into question to begin with.
Both your premise for filing your initial complaints here, your target for blame, and your presuppositions all need more work.
That's not my fault Shawn.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
trach
Tue, 02/26/2008 - 02:37 ET by shawn228Do you think you can perhaps keep the lengths of you post down a little bit, i don't want to feel like I am reading a textbook everytime, also I know what I said you really don't need to highlight everything.
I told you exactly how I would run the FCC, the boundries"for tv" are pretty much what is lawful at the present moment
I would also appreciate it if you let TWC speak for himself. Again, please do not highlight and paste every comment I said, and speak for yourself.
I don't feel like i'm oppressed at all, I am just annoyed that you keep nitpicking everything i say and really don't offer any input of your own. I have heard great post and ideas from RDH, TWC, Dee Bunk, Free Stinker and even botg. Seems you are just trying to get attention
Hey maybe thats it? You have a bad case of "look at me " disease ? One more time so you understand, no more cutting and pasting and keep the response a little bit shorter than the book of John,
thx
Shawn: Do you think you
Tue, 02/26/2008 - 03:40 ET by tracheostomyShawn: Do you think you can perhaps keep the lengths of you post down a little
bit, i don't want to feel like I am reading a textbook everytime, also
I know what I said you really don't need to highlight everything
No. Your words mean that much to me. Don't make the statements if you don't want them vigorously analyzed.
Every word is highlighted and focused on with the utmost care, to maintain a paper-trail so we don't have any misunderstandings like you and I witnessed awhile ago. I am also highly paranoid of having posts altered in any way. This isn't my first forum by a longshot. Please don't dictate to me how to respond to you. If you don't like it, you're welcome to not read it.
Shawn: I told you exactly how I would run the FCC, the boundries"for tv" are pretty much what is lawful at the present moment
Then what's the problem again? You're more than welcome to wipe the slate clean and start over. If you do, I'll even promise not to mention any of this nonsense happened to begin with.
Shawn: I would also appreciate it if you let TWC speak for himself. Again,
please do not highlight and paste every comment I said, and speak for
yourself.
You are using TWC as a patsy-representative of Christanity. I am here to correct that. If you'd like me to leave your thread, just ask and I'll do it. You haven't really asserted anything to begin with, and I'm pretty much wasting my time here. That is, unless you have something substantial you'd rather discuss.
Shawn: I don't feel like i'm oppressed at all, I am just annoyed that you keep
nitpicking everything i say and really don't offer any input of your
own.
Don't devalue your own words, Shawn. Also, what you said here officially proves that the input I already have offered has been officially ignored by the OP.
Shawn: Hey maybe thats it? You have a bad case of "look at me " disease ? One
more time so you understand, no more cutting and pasting and keep the
response a little bit shorter than the book of John,
1. You're telling me how to respond. I could just as easily label you a manipulative control-freak, but I won't.
2. If I had a bad case of "look at me" disease, wouldn't I be hurting my own "rep" by only participating in but one or two back-page topics at a time? Funny way to hog the spotlight.
You're arguing to the person now and taken it off of whatever the subject is supposed to be. This is the first time I've ever seen anyone do that without ever having stated any real definitive assertions to begin with.
And I'm disappointed you didn't answer my (more than) fair questions.
But that would just be calling more attention to myself, wouldn't it?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
:double-take:
Tue, 02/26/2008 - 04:02 ET by tracheostomyShawn: "I do not agree with what that writer said, but I will crawl on broken glass for that writers point of view to be heard."
It turns out that in the end, there are alot of strings attached to this.
Shawn's 5 amendments to free speech:
- Keep it short.
- Don't quote me.
- Don't highlight me.
- Don't respond to posters that I respond to.
- Your input will be heard when I choose to hear it.
. . . .
What would Evelyn Beatrice Hall think?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
"You are using TWC as a
Tue, 02/26/2008 - 10:44 ET by shawn228"You are using TWC as a patsy-representative of Christanity. I am here
to correct that. If you'd like me to leave your thread, just ask and
I'll do it."
No stay as long as you like, like Ross Perot, you are amusing in you own way.
"and I'm pretty much wasting my time here. "
Yah, we agree ;-) Have a nice day.
Pasty Representation of Christianity eh?
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 09:54 ET by The Wicked ConservativeTrach, seriously you need to study the entire old testament and see the pattern of faith verses rebellion toward God. When Israel sought the Lord in earnest they prospered. When they worshipped idols and spilled innocent blood, God cursed their land. If you think God is different today than he was, then you are mistaken. I have no pastieness about my faith. I like Shawn and care about him and others like him because I'm commanded to.
Shawn, sorry It's been so long. I've been very blessed at work and have only a little spare time these days to lurk on Newsbusters. The bible doesn't really have a lot to say about freewill other than that we understand we have it. No person in their right mind would be willing to be destroyed in order enjoy the pleasures of what God's standard says sin is. And sadly for us that standard is a whole lot more strict than ours. There is a way that seems right to a man but it's foolishness to God.
The only way we'll ever see this nation prosper again like it used to is through true repentence. We need to turn away from the senseless murder of millions in the womb, addiction and idolatry (which is any thing that is put above God) If you have interest in seeing what God can do with repentence look up the revivals in Cali, Colombia where a multi-billion dollar drug cartel was shattered because of prayer or the entire nation of Fiji where they are now 100% professing Christian. God blesses those that love Him. America has certainly fallen out of love with God and you can see from the growing despair in our land He's taken His hand off of us.
If we allow and condone rebellious behaviors towards God, we'll never be restored as a nation. That's why I can not condone any thing that is on your list.
"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Winston Churchill
TWC
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 11:44 ET by shawn228I have to go to work right now, so I will respond later in the day. I am very happy for you things are going well at work.
Beware of posting anything to Trach, imo he is just trying to get attention and is a male version of Debra. He will cut and paste your comments and use them against you until the four horsement of the apoclypse come back
Now that's a stretch. . .
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 17:44 ET by tracheostomyShawn: Beware of posting anything to Trach, imo he is just trying to get attention and is a male version of Debra.
Cite please.
Because I can do it with any of my statements. Debra could only do it with the support of her blog through her own personal crazy conspiracy theories. I'm nothing like Debra, because at the very least she was unable to define her own doctrines.
Second, Debra and I would differ a great deal on the core doctrines, including the state of your own salvation, or ours for that matter.
Shawn, you do realize that you essentially just said, "All those fundies look the same to me," right? Is it the enthusiasm that offends you?
I have treated you with far more respect than Debra would. As a matter of fact, I have stated before that we can start the thread over again if you want. Your statements really do matter to me. That's why I ask.
Shawn: He will cut and paste your comments and use them against you until the four horsement of the apoclypse come back
Debra had a habit of doing that too?
:time out:
Look Shawn, I don't want to play soap opera here. I aggressively argue against the reasoning. You know how I am.
I was hoping that because you've read my posts in the past that you would understand how I work. This is the first thread that I remember ever actively engaging your ideas.
But here you are, acting like all my past opponents and getting insulted where none was initially meant. When the reasoning fails (or never gets coherently off the ground), you go after the person.
Why?
Did your pride get hurt because I was simply asking you to communicate more clearly? What's your problem?
You should have started making the Debra comparisons long before I started debating you in particular. At least then it would have looked more credible.
My statements stand Shawn. I was just honestly trying to get a solid definition of your opinion, rather than assume what it is, or substitute my own.
That's it. Its as I've stated before, I'm giving your statements more value and more attention than anyone else.
Please understand that.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Trach
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 21:54 ET by shawn228Judging from your comments to TWC below, you just prove to me that you make accusations more often than healthy debate. Hey that is JMO. I feel responding to you anymore is like banging my head against the wall and apparently that is the way you feel as well. Your welcome to say whatever comment you feel like, I just might not respond as quicky as you like
thx trach.
Good thing I back my
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 02:06 ET by tracheostomyGood thing I back my accusations up with quotes, huh? As always, you're more than welcome to clarify and/or amend your statements.
You're only cornered if you want to stay that way.
And I don't require a response. You don't have to respond to me at all if you prefer.
I don't feel like I'm banging my head here. Maybe it's because I doubt you really want to communicate to begin with.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
double post
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 02:08 ET by tracheostomySry.
How embarrassing.
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 17:18 ET by tracheostomyOh wow TWC. First of all, it's "patsy," not "pasty."
I was warning you that you were being used. I was not calling you school-glue or an English pie. The word has been in common usage since the 60s. Now I know why Shawn's so chummy with you to begin with.
TWC: The bible doesn't really have a lot to say about freewill other than that we understand we have it.
The Bible says a lot about free will actually.
http://www.the-highway.com/freedom_Williamson.html
http://www.eternallifeministries.org/wc_myth.htm
True freedom of the will is only obtained after grace; not before. Prior to salvation the will is enslaved. Do you agree?
TWC: No person in their right mind would be willing to be destroyed in order enjoy the pleasures of what God's standard says sin is.
Where did you read this? What do you mean by "destroyed"?
TWC: The only way we'll ever see this nation prosper again like it used to is through true repentence.
How does TWC define this? Let's take a look. . .
We need to turn away from the senseless murder of millions in the womb, addiction and idolatry (which is any thing that is put above God)
In what manner? Legislation? How will this revival happen?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Trach, why are you angry with me?
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 23:44 ET by The Wicked ConservativeIt's okay. I have no need to strive with you. I apologize about the pastie thing, I thought you were insulting my faith as you saw it and apparently a bad typist. That's my bad. You see me as a patsy to his "bait" of a thread, eh? Well don't worry about me my friend. Shawn's thread gives me an open opportunity to share some gospel truth and that is great privelege. I may not see any fruit of repentence on a forum page but God is faithful to water seeds if only we'll plant them.
I will agree with you, I understated the very blessing and importance of the freewill we have from God. It is so important to Him that we have free will that He's willing to let us choose eternity in hell rather than obstruct our will. God's willingness to let us choose our destiny does not mean there's no judgement for the choices we make.
Read Revelation 21 Verse 8 in particular to find out what I mean by sinners being destroyed. Then also read 1 Corinthians 6 starting in verse 9. Please note I'm linking the whole chapter so you can see I'm not pulling anything out of context.
When it comes to repentence that can change a nation leadership helps but government will likely only stand in the way. I attend a church with nearly 2000 congregants weekly. If every person led one person to Christ annually and the new believers followed suit we could see revival. 2000, 4000, 8000, 16000, 32000 In 5 years 1 single congregation could change history. If only the church at large would take hold of the idea the world would be very different.
What do you believe Trach?
"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Winston Churchill
TWC
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 01:04 ET by tracheostomyI'm not angry with you.
Further, I apologized via PM.
But we do not choose our salvation. If we had a hand in the choice of our salvation, then we would have something to boast of.
Who do you give credit for your salvation, TWC?
TWC: What do you believe Trach?
I'm a New Reformer; an Augustinian Monergist. And I found it after 12 straight years of poring over numerous church doctrines to iron out discrepancies in our core beliefs.
My faults would include my online "tone of voice" (violating Gal 1:6).
Some would also include my suspicion of those who call themselves Christians, but at the same time are unwilling to let go of heretical doctrines.
But I have a passion for the word that overshadows my desire to be accepted by my peers. I believe in 2 Timothy 4:2. And I believe a true and humble Christian will accept an honest; loving rebuke and see it for what it is.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Trach, I can't honestly tell if we agree or not.
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 16:21 ET by The Wicked ConservativeYou say "we do not choose our salvation. If we had a hand in the choice of our salvation, then we would have something to boast of."
As in no one comes to the Son who isn't drawn by the Father? Who can boast of a gift? But also who can have a gift they refuse to receive. Do you believe everyone is redeemed already so there is no reason to be a christian? Not trying to put word in your mouth just curious what you're saying.
My salvation comes from God in all three parts of the Trinity. The Father who sent the Son, the Son who paid the price, and the Spirit that revealed truth to me.
"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Winston Churchill
TWC,
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 18:10 ET by tracheostomyHow are we able to receive the gift if we are first dead in our sins?
If your salvation comes from God alone, then where did your desire to choose salvation come from?
What is your definition of "to draw" in the verse you're alluding to?
(a.) To "woo" or "entice."
OR
(b.) To "draw" with irresistable force, as water from a well?
Think about it.
Can you entice the dead back to life? Either you weren't truly dead to begin with, or somehow you can woo a dead person to wake up healthy, and walk out of the morgue.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
TWC
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 01:32 ET by shawn228I actually totally hear what you are say TWC. I am afraid for my own salvation because it seems with the world the way it is, The end of days is coming and I am almost convinced I will see it in my life time.
The end of days and I realize I am Pharphrasing here but , what is right will become wrong, Babylon"Iraq" will be destroyed and rebuilt again. The earth will have terrible floods, fires, earthquakes etc
So many illegal drugs get into our country, that is only a matter of time before someone gets a suitcase nuke through.
So why do I not choose Jesus and my Lord and savior and repent and sin no more? Because deep down I do not agree with Gods laws. I mean I can go to Church every Sunday, give ten percent of my paycheck to my church and only watch wholesome programs.
The thing is I doubt God will let me through the gates of heaven unless, I truly believe in what he stands for on my own. I can act things out and give it lip service, God will know how I feel deep inside my heart.
I know this is very hard for you, but lets take God out of the equation ok? Lets just talk about the population and the government. What is done behind closed doors that does not effect anybody else, what is wrong with that? Why can't people just mind their own business?
Again I know you are deeply religious and you very thankful for God saving you a few yrs back, but without involving God, what right does the government have with things that should not concern them?
Shawn, what you ask is impossible
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 16:11 ET by The Wicked ConservativeTake God out of the equation and what would be the point of leading a good life. I can't possibly take Him out of the equation because of what I know. I'm telling you it's not even what I believe any more, it's what I know. I have personal observable evidence of Him.
I'll concede your point though, no God no problem. I'll tell you crime does pay and cheaters do prosper. If there was no future consequence then you'd be a chump to play it fair. But what a sad and terrible world that would be.
Please for examples sake which of God's laws do you disagree with. Unless you're an unreasonable person I'd be willing to bet your problem is with mans interpretation of them. I'm quite certain we agree on no killing, stealing, lieing, and the adultery one, right?
Give me an example of your objection please.
"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Winston Churchill
TWC
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 17:06 ET by tracheostomy:applause:
I'd have said pretty much the same thing.
You gonna answer him Shawn?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
TWC
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 01:23 ET by shawn228The reason I said take God out of the equation is because
Christianity is not the only religion in the United State of America.
People have been coming for here for over a century to enjoy religious freedom.
It
is a reality that this country has become a melting pot of many
different religions and I feel that even I though I believe in God, it
would be extremely arrogant on my part to expect everyone around me to
do so. I am happy that you have found peace with God and it gives you a
inner happiness and you want share it with others, I understand that,
but people have to except the Lord on their own terms.
As far as
the second part of your question. I believe there is nothing wrong with
fornication. If you one wants to be cellibate until marriage that is
fine and I respect that. I find nothing wrong with a monagomous couple
that have sex before marriage nor do I find anything wrong with a person
that has mulitiple partners before marriage, or even without getting
married at all.
I also have a hard time agreeing that God will
send people to hell because they worship anyone else except for him.
There are many good people in this world, Buddhist, atheist, in this
world and the fact that they have to have to face fire and brimstone
for eternity because of this, imo is very unfair. Yes I know God does not send people to Hell, they do it to themselves.
I disagree
that someone cannot covet what somebody else has. I have to admit it, I
was jealous that so many people had nice cars and I had to drive a 9 yr
old Honda Accord. I bought a new car a few weeks ago, because It
bothered me that my Honda did not match up. I am grateful for what God has given me, but there is nothing wrong with coveting the finer things in life
Finally I disagree
that Gays should go to Hell. If a person of the same sex loves another
person of the same sex, so be it. I will not get too much into this
one, because i believe Trach and Binxly hashed his out numourous times
and I don't want to open up that can of worms.
Also Trach, I
realize you are dying to cut and paste my words and turn them against
me, but could you wait for TWC or someone else to respond first? How
bout this if you want to respond to this, put it somewhere above this
one K? I would like somebody elses input for once. thx
Nope, I gave you ONE shot.
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 01:48 ET by tracheostomyNope, I gave you ONE shot. Stop begging for another.
If you know I'm gonna carve it up to begin with, why not stop and pay attention to your own gaping breaks in logic?
BRB, gotta sharpen the old katana.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Paragraph #1: Is a total
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 02:23 ET by tracheostomyParagraph #1: Is a total dodge. You're deliberately limiting it to a Judeo-Christian God. TWC is referring to his personal God, yes, but any "no god" scenario still stands. When TWC refers to "GOD" in the context of this discussion, he is referring to a set of moral standards that exist outside of humanism and moral relativism. You don't even have to believe in God to acknowlege that the moral code comes from a certain religious tradition. You can trace it back historically.
Further you did not take God out of the equation out of deference to other cultures :rolleyes: you did it because you yourself stated:
"What is done behind closed doors that does not effect anybody else, what is wrong with that? Why can't people just mind their own business?"
And the winner. . .
The thing is I doubt God will let me through the gates of heaven unless, I truly believe in what he stands for on my own. I can act things out and give it lip service, God will know how I feel deep inside my heart.
That's the truth right there. You don't like His law and you're being honest when you say you don't want to obey Him. I believe that much more than the multicultural spin you put on it later. It's simple. You don't want to adhere to any moral code that exists outside of "do what thou wilt." For you, that is true freedom regardless of any religion.
". . .but people have to except the Lord on their own terms."
I understand you mean "accept" correct? If this is an acknowledgement of God, where did He ever say that?
<<The moral standards remain in place, either God's or your own (which you hide in ambiguity)>>
Shawn, do you ever edit your own thoughts before posting them?
FLIP: I also have a hard time agreeing that God will
send people to hell because they worship anyone else except for him.
FLOP: Yes I know God does not send people to Hell, they do it to themselves.
You are awash with confusion.
"I am grateful for what God has given me, but there is nothing wrong with coveting the finer things in life."
That's not gratitude. Coveting by its very nature is ingratitude. It is dissatisfaction with what you have been given. The next step is theft, because you deserve it more than the other guy anyway.
Shawn: Finally I disagree that Gays should go to Hell. If a person of the same sex loves another person of the same sex, so be it. I will not get too much into this one, because i believe Trach and Binxly hashed his out numourous times and I don't want to open up that can of worms.
Ah, but YOU JUST DID IT ANYWAY!!! ^^^ And I never-ever stated all gays go to Hell. You're completely misrepresenting me. Go ahead and quote me. I only went toe-to-toe with Binxly on gay marriage. No one on NB has even heard my personal religious stance on homosexuality. I think I stated one time my belief that an individual can be born gay.
But you're right Shawn. That is fodder for another thread. Thanks for bringing it up though.
"I would like somebody elses input for once. thx"
Because the names matter more than the substance of the argument. That's right. Keep blaming the messenger.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
And my personal favorite. .
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 02:46 ET by tracheostomyAnd my personal favorite. . .
Quote: There are many good people in this world, Buddhist, atheist, in this
world and the fact that they have to have to face fire and brimstone
for eternity because of this, imo is very unfair.
A common misnomer and an accusation that God is unjust. If God judged on fairness alone, then every man, woman, and child who ever lived would go to Hell.
There is no standard of goodness that God judges another man by, other than His own.
Grace by definition, is getting something you don't deserve to begin with.
Mercy by definition, is not getting something you really do deserve to begin with.
Mercy and grace by BOTH definitions are not just, but at the same time they are not examples of injustice.
Those going to Hell will all receive perfect justice.
Those going to Heaven all received 100% unmerited Mercy and Grace.
Praise the Lord Jesus Christ that we are not all judged according to fairness.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
constant trolling
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 11:14 ET by shawn228I asked you very nicely not to respond to this post, I wanted to see someone elses opinion. You ever watch that movie Gremlins? They seem to be everywhere and so are you, but you only one person.
I even said if you really had to respond, to do it another part of this thread. You responded in this thread not once, but three times. Ok, I will take you up your offer to leave this thread which you said you would do if I asked. Even though I did not agree with many of your opinions and constant trolling, I put up with it.
This was the last straw, when you blatantly disrespected me by doing something, I asked you very nicely not to do. Again, I ever said if you had the need to respond to do it elsewhere on this thread, you just can't seem to mind your own business. I told you before I like you and respect you, but I think I have had enough of you on this thread. No hard feelings. If any other posters think I am being too harsh with trach, I would like to know your input.
The tea is gone; the welcome mat is finally rolled up. . .
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 18:17 ET by tracheostomyShawn: I asked you very nicely not to respond to this post, I wanted to see someone elses opinion.
And I did so in good faith. I'm not simply going to let you roll me around though, if that's what you think. "Okay PJ, now wait for my response. Okay PJ, now wait for his response. Okay now PJ. . ."
Give 'em an inch, they'll take a MILE.
Shawn: You ever watch that movie Gremlins? They seem to be everywhere and so are you, but you only one person.
You must not get out on NB much. I've only frequented what. . .two or three threads? The rest get maybe one or two posts at best? I'm not even a regular on the main board.
Does this entire world revolve exclusively around your thread Shawn???
Shawn: I even said if you really had to respond, to do it another part of this thread. You responded in this thread not once, but three times.
Oh! So you weren't asking me really, you were just telling me all along. Got it.
Shawn: Ok, I will take you up your offer to leave this thread which you said you would do if I asked. Even though I did not agree with many of your opinions and constant trolling, I put up with it.
Har. Okay-okay. You've had enough and I'm leaving the thread, okay?
And BTW it's not trolling. I gave you an out many-many times and with many options. My points are directly related to your comments and not you personally.
You have several major holes and inconsistencies in the basic structure of your thread. You don't even understand Christianity, so how can you therefore judge conservative Christians? So not trolling.
Give and take runs both ways. You can't have your assumption of the way things are, and just have the rest of us blithely run along with it.
Shawn: This was the last straw, when you blatantly disrespected me by doing something, I asked you very nicely not to do.
Oh, so now "disrespect" is defined more broadly to suit you, is it?
I gave TWC and Binxly both the responses you asked for. I did as you asked. You have to renegotiate for more Shawn. I fulfilled your request.
Shawn: Again, I ever said if you had the need to respond to do it elsewhere on this thread, you just can't seem to mind your own business. I told you before I like you and respect you, but I think I have had enough of you on this thread. No hard feelings. If any other posters think I am being too harsh with trach, I would like to know your input.
Oh hey, it is after all. . .Shawn's thread.
But is it Shawn's board? What will happen when I get him later on another discrepancy?
But trust me. I honestly don't do it because you're you. I don't even wake up in the morning with the goal of pointing out some people's inability to communicate. It just JUMPS OUT at me. . .like walking up to someone with a goiter or a meibomian cyst.
I'll grant you your request this one time on this thread only.
And next time, please don't change the terms of the contract like you tried to do before.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
hiya Shawn
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 17:12 ET by candanceI didn't realize you had started this until just now. *blushes at seeing herself referenced as a cool conservative*
Anyway, I thought I'd add my two cents to the topics at hand.
-Civil unions: I assume you mean for gay people and the like? Personally I don't mind gay people living together, doing taxes together, getting next of kin rights, etc. I guess that's what civil unions are all about? What I don't like is emphasis removed from mothers and fathers/family units.
-Voluntary euthanasia is fine by me. What I object to is a questionable case where there is no DNR order and a family member with suspicious motives is pushing for it. Euthanasia only with an abundance of evidence that the sick person wanted it. Otherwise, err on the side of life.
-Adult entertainment, the more the merrier as long as it's behind closed doors.
-Drug use is sticky because technically the government is dictating what people can do, but on the other hand drug dealers get kids hooked on it fast. IMO make things like pot legal but enforce harsh laws against anyone caught selling to a minor.
-Prostitution in itself is harmless enough, but like drug use, it tends to invite trouble around it. Teen girls getting beaten and forced to go along with it, homeless girls getting diseases because it was their only source of income, etc. Also the thought of every corner in America hosting a prostititute does not sound very good to me. I lean on the side of keeping it illegal, but not fervently.
-Protecting the unborn is still a big deal to me. It's not about a woman's right to choose. It's coming to the rescue of a little person with no voice at the mercy of an apathetic mother.
Laws should not be formed by random moral codes, but by common sense desires for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Anything that hurts society, directly or indirectly, must be dealt with.
For example, porn and free speech. Back in the day porn was available for adults who knew where to get it. Getting into Rated R movies was harder for kids to do. Kids grew up learning the birds and bees through whispered rumors and lectures from parents.
The past 20 years has seen a boom in sex and profanity made available to children. These days, kids as young as nine and ten speak in vulgar language, know as much about sex as I do, think school is a joke, and enjoy random violence. We are raising a new breed of airheads and this will hurt our society in the long run.
So everything has to be considered through that lens.
Candance
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 22:03 ET by shawn228I agree with almost all of your opinions. Like I said, you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, but you are not arrogant enought to shove him down everyone throat.
I would take adult entertainment a little further though. What do you think of my unbungling of tv idea?
Flattery will get you everywhere. . .
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 22:18 ET by tracheostomyShawn: I agree with almost all of your opinions. Like I said, you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, but you are not arrogant enought to shove him down everyone throat.
Gee, I hope that includes me Shawn, because I never led the discussion with Christianity, did I?
:checks paper trail:
Nope, sure didn't.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Yeah right
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 22:22 ET by well99Are you sure Sandy Berger isnt working for you?Sorry in a whimiscal mood tonight.
Okay, um. . .joke
Wed, 02/27/2008 - 22:24 ET by tracheostomyOkay, um. . .joke accepted?
I'm sorry, your premise depends upon hardcopy.
Quote me.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Well Shawn
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 01:50 ET by candanceI think we've spoken before about unbundling cable channels and you know I'm all for that idea.
However, I do agree with Trach to some extent...you're naive if you really think that would be a long-term solution.
Those who produce graphic sex and violence are not content to leave it on special networks or secure places. They are constantly pushing the envelope to make public TV and music more disturbing every day. Several years ago, PG 13 movies were safe for your kids. Now they allow the f word and show obvious sexual encounters. Lyrics that the radio used to bleep ten years ago are now played straight out. Sex and the City debuted on premium cable because it was too racy for normal TV. Now it's syndicated.
HBO, Showtime, Playboy, etc...those were all designed to be secure sources of adult entertainment. Now you try to catch Knight Rider on NBC and you have to watch two women in bed together.
And yes I can turn my head, but there comes a point where I'm turning off my TV because all of it is smut, and I'm avoiding the mall because the posters and fashions are trashy. The safe entertainment stops being safe and then there's nothing else.
Right Candance
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 10:59 ET by shawn228I agree with you and many shows, you cannot watch with children in the room anymore, I get that, What i am proposing you would have much more freedom, if wholesome shows are what you want, then those are the only channels you would have to subscribe to.
Also Sex and the City is heavy edited in syndication. I have to admit, I find that show brilliant.
I understand Shawn
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 12:15 ET by candanceI get what you're talking about and like I say before, the last thing I want is to punish adults who enjoy that stuff.
You talk about wholesome shows I can watch. What am I supposed to do, watch TBN and the Disney Channel every night? That's the point it's getting to now - I can't imagine how bad it will be in another generation.
I see right much profanity here on NB but no one addresses it for fear of supressing free speech. It's inescapable in our culture.
Binxly
Thu, 02/28/2008 - 01:57 ET by shawn228I am responding down here because it was getting awfully skinny up there:-)
You present you points very well and I understand you pov on protecting our children. Your right maybe 5-9 yr olds might not know how to get past a v-chip, but a older child might.
I concede I am selfish and I want it both ways, to be able to watch what i want and protect out children at the same time.
IMO opinion with what you propose about paying extra for Showtime or HBO is they are subsciption channels.
They get all their money from people that pay for their service and that is it. The way I would do it is, people can choose whatever the stations they want individually and that would include NBC, CBS, FOX and ABC. These channels would no longer have to worry about the FCC, because I would takeway the restrictions that have no re: obsenity. How is this different than HBO or Showtime? FOX, ABC, NBC etc have paid advertising. That is where the really money comes from for a budget. Shows like CSI and Grays Anatomy have a lots of money because their sponsors are willing to pay the small fortune it takes to buy a commercial.
Like I was saying earlier, If I ran the FCC, people can have whatever channels they want within reason. Christian, Wholesome, Music Channel.s. The government would not be involved either, PBS will be a thing of the past.
I have all kinds of things
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 11:52 ET by Ruths husband BenI have all kinds of things that I would like to say in response to this thread and, unfortunately, far too little time. But I will say this (and leave it at that, because I have to go for the rest of the day and weekend). A major problem that both Christians and non-Christians have is the tendency to try and create a God in their own image. A phrase I used to hear was, "God said it. I believe it and that settles it." Whether you believe it or not, if God says it, that settles it. Now I personally believe that the Bible is the Word of God (in its original autographs), therefore I have to accept what is written there, regardless of whether or not I like what I read. BTW, there is quite a lot there that I don't like (I too would like to feel free to do whatever I wish without regard to consequence). The point is, it doesn't really matter whether you believe in God or not (it does to you, obviously) - He exists with or without your belief.
But the one thing that I understand about the Bible is that it is a mirror to peer deeply into. In other words, in additon to revealing who God is, it also reveals who I am. Many people use the Bible as a spot-light to shine on those around them and I personnally believe that is wrong. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict, not Ruth's husband Ben. So, I agree with you in this much: You have the right (given to you by God himself) to go to hell if you wish. I have the right and the obligation to point out that there is a more excellent way, however.
What we forget is that the concept of freedom comes from the Bible. We forget that Jesus lived during a time of Temple Prostitution, rampant homosexuality (i.e., the Greek culture) and hedonism. Yet, he didn't spend his energy railing against these things. He did spend his energy railing against those who considered themselves guides to the blind. The church in America would do well to devote themselves into getting their lives in order. If we would become the Light on a Hill (see Matthew 5: 14) we are called to be, the Holy Spirit would convict those living in darkness to come to the light.
Regarding your refusal to believe in God, I admire your honesty. I also wish you would reconsider, but it is your choice. If you want to read a real thoughtful work on this subject, read "Mere Christianity" by C. S. Lewis. It is not light reading but it is a strong philosophical argument that begins from the atheist viewpoint and logically proves....well, read it and see what it proves, if anything.
Adios and good weekend to all.
amen Ben!
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 15:23 ET by candanceJudgement begins in the house of God.
Far too many Christians today are like an amateur basketball player pretending to be a coach - you end up with the blind leading the blind.
1st Corinthians 2: 4-5
And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
I don't think Christians
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 16:11 ET by BinxlyI don't think Christians who are seen as 'dissenters' are modeling religion out of their own understanding. Rather, they are the types who question certain things. Again, if God said no Peanut butter and jelly consumption is allowed, punishable by damnation, you will always have those who refuse the food. However, the bold will indeed ask 'why?' As I said before, the bible is a book of 'paraboles.' Also written by man as the intermediary which does leave for fault of translation. As I also stated before, it was written in a time when science was all but non-existant to human kind and our radar of perception. Therefore, diseases were viewed as punishment from God, and therefore, man would deduce that the actions of those who were inflicted by disease in the like must have been 'wrong' as they seemingly MUST have incurred the wrath of an angry God.
I am all for standing up for what you believe in, but if you are so quick to judge those who do not ascribe to the ye ole fire and brimstone God on a permanent power trip, devoid of common sense and rationality, then by all means, you are free to believe as such and also voice your opinions about the error of the ways of people like me. However, you cannot expect us to not use critical thinking and fact to poke holes into your beliefs too. However I would never claim that because you are of the different 'school' of Christianity that it somehow makes you *not* a true Christian. However, it would seem many in said school make no qualms about passing judgement on believers such as myself, often becoming personal with their attacks. Remember, if you do ascribe to the idea that God is an eternally pissed entity who lives only to scorn those who are not blindly obedient in the face of common sense, then judgement of others on your part is equally damning as homosexuality or shellfish consumption. I just find it funny, not attacking you Candace or anyone in particular, that many of the people who believe God is such a hateful being can be so hateful themselves. It just reeks of hypocrisy to me. If their outlook on God *IS* correct, then we're all damned. All of us. Yes.....you too.
huh binx?
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 16:23 ET by candanceI wasn't even referring to you when I said that.
All I meant by my comment was that Christians are far too quick to preach at the world when they themselves live in a glass house. Get your own stuff in order and show good fruit before you try to teach others.
And I thought that was the same point Ben was making. Christians cultivate holiness within themselves before influencing the world...not the other way around.
It doesn't have anything to do with me forcing you to see the Bible a certain way.
The mistake and fault is
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 17:08 ET by BinxlyThe mistake and fault is mine then candace, I apologize. I have to say I agree then now hearing you specify what you meant. That was the beef I addressed in my own post, I think too often we cast our own inflated sense of satisfaction in our faith, enough to begin judging others based on their approach, when in turn, I personally believe no human is perfect in their faith, it is beyond our ability to be so. Because of such I personally ascribe to the idea that yes it is ok to preach in a civil format, however, we are all below the line of perfection to begin judging one another by divine law of God.
Again sorry for the misinterpretation and I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who feels this way. :)
it's all bacon binx
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 17:28 ET by candanceI agree with you about being too quick to judge others - often I will state my opinions about things, but it's never my job to decide who gets to be saved and who doesn't.
When we discuss the Bible with nonbelievers like Shawn, there's a fine line between speaking boldly and starting an argument. When a discussion begins to go in circles or the other side gets ticked off, it's best to just drop it, even if you know you're right. If they get too upset they'll shut you out for good.
As we've talked about on NB many times, conviction comes through God's revelation, not man's intellect. Yet all too often we start to think that if we debate something long enough we can sidestep God's work. In the end, we're beating a stubborn horse until it resents being beaten.
We disagree on gay marriage, but we both know we won't change each other with another argument. So we leave it in God's hands.
Candance, Ben, everyone. . .
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 17:16 ET by tracheostomyThis isn't singling anyone out. I'm responding to the comments as stated.
C: And I thought that was the same point Ben was making. Christians cultivate holiness within themselves before influencing the world...not the other way around.
Then when is the Christian cultivated enough before going out to influence the world? All I read is that teachers will receive a stricter judgement.
I have seen only one member here who claimed to be a pastor, and this community isn't the one he was ordained to lead.
But I read the Son of God said once, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. . ."
Strong stuff.
C: It doesn't have anything to do with me forcing you to see the Bible a certain way.
Is the Bible a malleable document according to its core precepts of sin and salvation?
Who's "forcing" anyone to do anything here?
Am I standing in a live pulpit; hurling screaming accusations down on others who are personally in pews, cringing and in the fetal position, wetting themselves at the gospel being literally shoved down their throats?
No.
You're sitting there safe (probably in the comfort of your own home). You're not some pedestrian that got singled out on camera by Kirk Cameron.
Am I screaming at you on YouTube? Where's the volume control for PJ? Are you chained to the internet?
No.
You're having text. . .slipped under your nose. . .in total silence.
That's all. No different from walking a few yards and cracking a Bible open for yourself.
Have I tied anyone up and gagged them? Are they not allowed (nay, WELCOMED) to respond in kind?
Who will dare to bring a railing accusation against the Lord of Hosts?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
um...okay....
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 17:38 ET by candanceYou said you wouldn't single anyone out but then you directly quoted me and no one else....
Then when is the Christian cultivated enough before going out to influence the world?
I'm not saying you have to be perfect or be Mother Theresa before you share the gospel. But even you must admit that the modern church looks an awful lot like the world, and often when nonbelievers try to reach out, so-called Christians are the first to treat them dirty. It was not a remark about any individual person as much as a call for the church to watch its own sheep first.
I don't think the Bible is a malleable document any more than you do. But I also recognize that people don't change overnight and God leads us gently into His perfect knowledge. The more I understand the Bible, the more I realize how little how I know, so I try not to attack someone who maybe isn't as far along.
All that other stuff about screaming in a church sounds a little dramatic.
C,
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 18:15 ET by tracheostomyOh, but didn't I say that I was responding to the comments only as stated? I think I did.
Please don't omit my disclaimer and then try to say I never said it.
Frustrated yet? Oh, but is that somehow my fault you failed to read? Others would like to have it that way. I hope you're not one of them.
I don't see any unbelievers trying to reach out, other than to reach out and butter you up. In fact, I don't see any unbelievers "reaching out" or any "seekers" here at all.
All I see are people who say they want to keep their sin and they want those with the gospel to butt out.
Except for those who are seen as giving approval to their behavior. They're the "cool" Christians. They're allowed to hang with the clique.
C: I don't think the Bible is a malleable document any more than you do. But I also recognize that people don't change overnight and God leads us gently into His perfect knowledge.
Salvation isn't overnight? Mine was. St. Paul's was. The Phillipian jailer's was.
C: The more I understand the Bible, the more I realize how little how I know, so I try not to attack someone who maybe isn't as far along.
The time is short. And these aren't attacks by a longshot. If you saw someone standing in the middle of a crosswalk talking on their cell, and a truck was speeding towards them, would you consider it an attack on your part if you shoved them forcefully out of the way?
Do you even believe there IS a truck?
C: All that other stuff about screaming in a church sounds a little dramatic.
It's meant to be. It's a contrast. No one's being attacked here, only their presuppositions. More than fair and far less than Kirk Cameron.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
this is mixed up
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 20:25 ET by candanceTrach I know you have a lot of Biblical knowledge and are all about witnessing to the lost and I totally respect that. The only reason I replied to this thread in the first place was because Shawn named me personally in his introduction. But I see that I'm becoming a distraction.
When I spoke about people reaching out, I didn't realize my words could only apply to this thread on NB. And I didn't realize I'd given my stamp of approval on sin.
Salvation happens on the spot, I agree, but we don't stand up from the altar and magically turn into a theology professor. We still have to read the Bible and grow in our knowledge - unless you already know everything.
Yes I understand the danger of that faces unbelievers. Just because we witness to people in different methods doesn't mean I'm not witnessing.
Ah, but you say I'm not. I'm wanting so badly to be popular that I tolerate sin. I read this thread and tried not to take sides, but Shawn was right - you take a harmless quote and twist it to make someone look bad.
Since I'm such a hindrance to your fine job of witnessing here, I'll see myself out.
You're smarter than me. You're blinding me with your knowledge. I can't hang with you. I'm running from the truth because it's revealing my sins. You win - whatever.
Candance
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 00:18 ET by shawn228I'm sorry to have put you in this uncomfortable situation, most people have put forth great comments and suggestions and I hate to lose your input because of Trach.
I guess it is just sad that 1 percent of the people that commented on this thread caused 80 percent of the problems. Lets just see if he keeps his word and leaves this thread quietly.
If that happens I feel there can be good conversation instead of accusing and sarcastic overtones. Trach is reading this now and just itching to respond, but like I said, if his word means anything he will stay away.
Binxly: I don't think
Fri, 02/29/2008 - 17:44 ET by tracheostomyBinxly: I don't think Christians who are seen as 'dissenters' are modeling religion out of their own understanding. Rather, they are the types who question certain things. Again, if God said no Peanut butter and jelly consumption is allowed, punishable by damnation, you will always have those who refuse the food. However, the bold will indeed ask 'why?'
And what if those questioned who fear confrontation do nothing but hedge and run?
By the way, that was one of the most well-written; well-thought posts I've seen you come up with. Thank you.
The last point there is especially well conceived and it's exactly what I was thinking. It's a concept rarely heard in today's church. It's called wrath. And I am no more immune to it than anyone else.
All our righteousness (including mine) is as the filthiest rags used for the dirtiest work.
Without unmerited grace and unearned mercy, we are all of us under the exact same wrath.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Ben
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 00:42 ET by shawn228Thank you for your input. I really enjoyed reading that. I feel I can learn alot from what you say and I will see if that book is around the next time I am at the libray.
One thing I would disagree with you is, there is no refusal to believe in God, in fact I want to be a Christian and I am trying to accept him. I truly believe the end of days will be upon us soon and I don't want to have a real hot vacation. The thing is I cannot fool myself into agreeing with many things that I do not. As hard as I try to convince myself that porn is wrong, fornication is wrong, believing in other religions is wrong, I just can't seem to see things that way. In fact the more I read the Bible, the more I feel God is vindictive. Flooding the whole earth because he does was not happy with progress, killing of most of a mans family and giving him boils just to test his faith? Some of it just does not make sense to me.
I truly hope I understand Christianty before the Rapture:-) Have a great weekend and maybe you will post back to me when you get back.
the whole of life and
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 00:53 ET bythe whole of life and history, when compared to the eternal existance is miniscule.
In fact one day in kindergarten compared to your lifetime is of greater consequence than history is to eternity.
You can't judge it based on the here and now.
No Poofdas
Okay peoples
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 13:45 ET by candanceI'm going to take another stab at answering this thread. I'm not referencing or retorting to any comments that came before - this simply a new reply to the original OP.
Shawn, you know that many of us here have told you before that one of your biggest problems is stereotyping Christians. You see Pat Robertson or Jack van Impe on TBN saying something you don't like, and then the wheels in your mind start to turn...
Christians watch this, yeah probly a lot of them do, and they're hearing all this and believing it, and soon millions of Christians will be after me with pitchforks!
So then we go from "Pat Robertson said x" until it becomes "the religious right says x."
Thus when any Christian talks about limiting porn or violence, go immediately go into panic mode.
Most of us pretty much want the same things:
-Adult entertainment all you want but safe from the kids.
-Intelligent and sensitive use of euthanasia.
-Be nice to gays but don't change the concept of marriage.
The differences come up when we talk about the details. You tend to interpret *any* effort to limit speech as some Scarlet Letter witch hunt when all we really want is to keep people safe.
And as I mentioned before, Christians don't come up with these rules at random. They are there to safeguard society from certain danger. If we start allowing hard drugs to be acceptable practice and bring the lowest common denominators to the center of our culture, what happens then? There comes a point when we all end up looking just Lindsey Lohan. And then society stops functioning - and everyone gets hurt.
It's not about telling other people what to do. It's about things that seem innocent enough but when taken to the logical conclusion will tear society down.
I await your thoughts.
Candance
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 14:41 ET by shawn228It is nice to see you back. It has been a lot more peaceful on this thread for a little while huh? :-)
I agree that not all Christians are not like Pat Robertson, just like all liberals are not all like Rosie O' Donnel.
"Most of us pretty much want the same things: "
I would have to disagree with you on this one.
-Adult entertainment all you want but safe from the kids.
Judging from two of the reasonable Christians on this site. Botg and TWC. Even though his answers are sometimes cryptic, I believe botg believes that things like adult entertainment is bad for society, they believe AE bring down the morals of this country. I believe not only do they support the current laws of outlawing what they consider filth, I believe if it was a option to outlaw porn all together they would support it. If I am wrong they can tell me so, but that is what i am assuming.
Euthansia.
Most Christians believe the only ones that they can take someones life is God "with the exception of the death penalty and war of course :-)" Suicide is a sin in most Christians eyes. Even though the people in Oregan voted for Dr. assisted suicide, the Feds led my Ashcroft tried to meddle and overturn it, I believe the SCOTUS might vote on it in the near future.
-Be nice to gays but don't change the concept of marriage.
I guess it depends on what you mean by being nice to gays. Say hi to the on the street? Or do you mean except for marriage supporting their lifestyle. Men holding hands on the street, Gay adoption, Being able to put their spouse on their medical plan.
I see your point when it comes to hard drugs, but I would decriminalize marijuana and prostitution. Why is it anyone elses business if someone wants to pay for sex?
In conclusion, I like your POV, but I disagree that most Christians want the same thing as you,.
Shawn & Candance
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 15:10 ET by MrShy-Be nice to gays but don't change the concept of marriage.
I guess it depends on what you mean by being nice to gays. Say hi to
them on the street? Or do you mean except for marriage supporting their
lifestyle.
I'm just guessing here, Shawn, but I think when Candance wrote "be nice to gays" she meant..... be nice to gays. She didn't say anything about "supporting their lifestyle".
SOCKS THE CAT 2008... for REAL Change
Mr. Shy
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 15:14 ET by shawn228Well at least this not another one of your post and runs. Hey Unsane, brilliant comment, Shawn you suck. Well maybe it was not as bad as that, but it something along those lines ;-)
That is why I am asking Candance what she means by "be nice to gays" Shy. You on the other hand don't seem to have a problem speaking for others.
Shawn
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 15:37 ET by MrShyHey Unsane, brilliant comment, Shawn you suck.
Shawn, do you just want to be loved? (and... "is that so wrong!?!" :p)
That is why I am asking Candance what she means by "be nice to gays"
Shy. You on the other hand don't seem to have a problem speaking for
others.
Candance is "one of us", meaning, on the common sense-thinking side of the aisle, so I'm sure she meant exactly what she wrote.
Btw, Shawn, are you casting your vote for Socks come November? hmm??
* * * SOCKS THE CAT * 2008 * * *
For REAL Change
well mr shy
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 15:46 ET by shawn228I can honestly say I don't go to bed thinking about your approval. I do not believe you have the right to say "one of us" yet. You don't have the right to include everyone else in that statement. Just like the rest of the NB members can't all say that they test womans thongs for living.
Just like when I give my opinion, I don't I have the right to include, Balboa, Leon, Jer, or JasonC
I did not give it much though about voting for Socks the Cat, but I will strongly consider it since I find Jack Bauer a stand up guy.
Just like the rest of the
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 15:50 ET by MrShyJust like the rest of the NB members can't all say that they test womans thongs for living.
Professor Truth? Is that you??
I seeee, only Jack Bauer is a stand up guy. Now I'M not feeling a lot of love. Thanks Shawn.
And remember.... vote.....
* * * SOCKS THE CAT * 2008 * * *
For REAL Change
Professor Truth? Is that you??
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 15:58 ET by shawn228Nope just me Mr Shy. At least your responding today. Most of times you get in a cheap shot and run away which is what you liberal trolls do. Didn't you say something about my hyprocricy to Unsane?
I was just pointing out that speaking for other people is extremely arrogant on your part, but hey, to each their own.
Instead of speaking for Candance and doing your post and runs, while don't you say something useful for a change. What do you think of individual freedoms?
I'm all for'em (individual
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 16:06 ET by MrShyI'm all for'em (individual freedoms, that is :))
* * * SOCKS THE CAT * 2008 * * *
For REAL Change
Good Mr Shy
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 16:48 ET by shawn228I am glad we agree on this issue. I just take offense when you use the word "we" What does that make me Mr Shy? A troll? Just curious.
You made friends with many popular members of this site and you feel it is okay to lump all the conservatives in one homogenious pile. Thats awfully arrogant for someone to refer to 90 percent of the members as we.
I get along very well with many of the people that you call your buddies as well Mr. Shy. So I would be not be as quick to assume they would all be on your side..
Also
"Professor Truth? Is that you??"
No it is not, but is it not true you sell womans thongs for a living? I mean I' m not sure if you test them or not? Do you? Come on admit it, you have a few occasions right? ;-)
Shawn
Sun, 03/02/2008 - 11:35 ET by MrShyYou're at it again, obsessing over my thongs and whether I wear them or not. Creepy.
BUT, you'll be happy to know I do not see you as a creepy "troll"... just... creepy Shawn :)
And yes, I am somewhat arrogant for assuming that about most NB'ers. I plead guilty!
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
Ok Mr. Shy
Sun, 03/02/2008 - 11:46 ET by shawn228I do not obsess about you wearing your thongs. I like straight porn remember?
Maybe I over reacted a bit. You can understand my frustration though can't you? You always get in a cheap shot and when I respond rarely do I get an answer. If you decide start a debate, you should have a the courtesy to finish it.
My comments about your thongs is a cheap shot and I should not have let my temper get the best of me. I apologize. I will not bring up your thongs in derogatory way again
Shawn, I think you're
Sun, 03/02/2008 - 11:54 ET by MrShyShawn, I think you're taking me too seriously. Things you're saying and that I've been responding to regarding my thongs is all in good fun :) You're a nice guy, I know! (Blonde speaks highly of you :)) I've been having a bit of fun with you when I post back, sorry.
I will try and stick around more after I pull one of my interjections (is that a word?) and start a debate. I really was not on NB for lengthy periods because of my slow connection, but it's better now.
Oh, and no, I don't remember you ever telling me you like straight porn.... and... hmm, well, good to know, I guess (TMI, perhaps? :p)
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
(TMI, perhaps? :p)
Sun, 03/02/2008 - 12:04 ET by shawn228perhaps ;-)
Maybe I should be grateful, I have had good debate on this thread for two days now. No extra long posts with someone copying and pasting of words.
I'm actually enjoying my thread now.
Shawn, I think you're
Sun, 03/02/2008 - 11:58 ET by MrShyShawn, I think you're taking me too seriously. Things you're saying and that I've been responding to regarding my thongs is all in good fun :) You're a nice guy, I know! (Blonde speaks highly of you :)) I've been having a bit of fun with you when I post back, sorry.
I will try and stick around more when I interject and start a new debate. I really was not on NB for lengthy periods because of my slow conneciton, but it's better now.
Oh, and no, I don't remember you ever telling me you like straight porn.... and... hmm, well, good to know, I guess (TMI, perhaps? :p)
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
Hai Shai sry no soks
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 16:18 ET byno soks left
Haha.... that's pretty
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 16:28 ET by MrShyHaha.... that's pretty funny! Funny.... and very strange :p
* * * SOCKS THE CAT * 2008 * * *
For REAL Change
Shawn
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 15:54 ET by RESTLESS 1How would AE not bring down morals in a society? While have a live and let live approach to this, as long as it is away from children, I do see how porn erodes the moral fiber of those who engage it. I mean, how do YOU define moral if you do not see this?
I don't think most people have a problem with allowing gays to have the benefits of marriage, just as a civil union. Christians do not want the term marriage, which is defined by God as between one man and one woman, bastardized to mean any union the intolerant left can come up with. As far as I am concerned, allowing partners on employee insurance plans is between the employee and the company they work for. If they don't like one company's policy, they can find a job at one they agree with.
The comparing of war or the death penalty to right to life issues is asinine. Nobody is pro-war, or technically, pro-death penalty. Some of us just see the necessity for both. In the vast majority of abortions, there is no way to make a case for necessity. The left just wants one more form of birth control in place so as not to have to deal with the consequences of their actions.
Finally, I have seen many Christian posters here in agreement with Candance's stances on these subjects. I don't know if you consider yourself Christian or not, but if you don't, then you can't know enough about us to make your last claim. If you do, you should know better.
Restless
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 16:13 ET by shawn228I feel if people want to engage or watch porn that is their right. If it is done behind closed doors and they are not bothering anyone, why is it anyone elses business.
I also never said said Christians or even conservatives like to kill people, I just said most of them think it is okay to do so in time of war or to punish somebody. Is this not true?
I have not met many Christians and even talked to many on this board that think civil unions are okay. They find homosexuality a sin and they see it in black and white. Some of them find sin in a artiticle saying have more sex in 2008. I think it was written by WTH, I will find it if you like.
I feel if people want to
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 16:18 ET by MrShyI feel if people want to engage or watch porn that is their right. If it is done behind closed doors and they are not bothering anyone, why is it anyone elses business.
I agree. And I'm not kidding, I do agree with you on this one. So there, that's my first direct response to one of the individual freedoms listed on your forum here.
* * * SOCKS THE CAT * 2008 * * *
For REAL Change
MrShy
Sun, 03/02/2008 - 16:42 ET by QueenMumThanks for the link. I'm seriously considering "reaching across the aisle" to vote for Socks. He looks very Presidential. :)
I am Queen Mum and I approved this message.
Shawn
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 20:24 ET by RESTLESS 1"I feel if people want to engage or watch porn that is their right. If
it is done behind closed doors and they are not bothering anyone, why
is it anyone elses business."
Yeah, that's pretty much what I said. I just added that people who engage porn are more likely to be less moral, IMO.
"I also never said said Christians or even conservatives like to kill
people, I just said most of them think it is okay to do so in time of
war or to punish somebody. Is this not true?"
Okay is not the right term. We would much rather the option not be necassary. Unfortunately, there are those out there who make times of war and capital punishment necassary in order to keep the peace. Sounds ironic I know, but it is true.
"I have not met many Christians and even talked to many on this board
that think civil unions are okay. They find homosexuality a sin and
they see it in black and white."
And homosexuality is black and white as far as Christians are concerned. It is aberrant behavior. It is a sin. The bible says so. Why is it so hard for liberals to just accept the fact that due to religious convictions, Christians cannot accept homosexual behavior? That said, I have no problems with them having the same oppurtunities as heteros when it comes to what to do with their money, life savings, life insurance and so forth. I also don't think that companies should be forced to provide insurance for ANYONE. Therefor, if a company does not provide insurace coverage for an employee's partner, then I suggest the employee find work elsewhere. I can't make it any more simple than that.
restless
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 20:40 ET by candanceIt is aberrant behavior. It is a sin. The bible says so. Why is it so hard for liberals to just accept the fact that due to religious convictions, Christians cannot accept homosexual behavior? That said, I have no problems with them having the same oppurtunities as heteros when it comes to what to do with their money, life savings, life insurance and so forth.
Exactly how I feel. Their money and their taxes are one thing while marriage and adoption are another.
Shawn
Sun, 03/02/2008 - 04:37 ET by RESTLESS 1"Why is it so hard for liberals to just accept the fact that due to
religious convictions, Christians cannot accept homosexual behavior?"
I'm still waiting for an answer to this question. I'll accept an answer from you or Balboa as you two are the only liberals I've yet to see who will debate with any intellectual honesty.
restess
Sun, 03/02/2008 - 11:26 ET by shawn228I'm sorry for my tardy answer, I was going to respond yesterday, but I got a new wi fi card and it screwed everything up.
First
I wanted to say I do not believe that a person that views pornography
as immoral or less moral than a person tha does not view it. I'm sure
some would disagree, but to each their own.
Second If i replace
the word "ok" with "necessary" for killing in a time of war or capital
punishment it does not change the fact that most conservatives are ok
with it. I am not saying they are wrong. Candance says she says there
is a diference between suicide and euthansia. I absoloutly agree. The
thing is I don't think most Christians do. Also Candance, You mentioned
your definintion of euthanasia as being taken off a machine, that is
mine too, but I am also for Doctor assisted Euthanisa which means
putting something in your iv drip.
Finally, I don't know about
most Liberals, but for myself. Christians can believe anything they
wish. If they don't agree with homosexuality so be it. I just don't
like the ones that push the envelope so far than they infringe on their
gays way of life. A good example would be the ones that were up in arms
a few yrs back, when I think It was the state of Texas overturned a law
making sodomy illegal.
I have said before restless, I believe in
God and want to go to heaven, I just have issues with his rules at the
moment and hopefully I will have thos worked out before it is too late.
welcome back!
Sun, 03/02/2008 - 16:04 ET by candanceA few quick points Shawn:
As far as euthanasia, I personally do not like the idea of a doctor giving someone poison to help them die faster even if they are very sick. If they take it upon themselves it's between them and God - but IMO there is too much of a risk of doctors pressuring patients into it or trying to speak for a patient who can't talk. Also, just like every other industry, these doctors would inevitably push the envelope, until it becomes a cultural acceptance that sick people are put to sleep. It's simply too much to put life and death into another human's hands.
Like with the drugs and violence we mentioned before, it's not about one harmless person or one special circumstance - it always ends up creeping into a cultural fad.
Do you believe a traditional marriage amendment is infringing on gay folks' rights? Do you really not believe it would open the floodgate for sexual perversions to become the norm? We already have a huge problem with teachers and coaches seducing teenagers...you really don't think they want to use the same justification that they were born that way?
You speak about the religious right pushing their agenda and prodding for a little more leverage all the time - you don't see how the left also works in increments to get what they want?
thx candance
Sun, 03/02/2008 - 17:05 ET by shawn228Doctor assisted euthanisa is a very hard topic. You are right and there need to be guidelines. There are many doctors i'm sure that will not do it for moral reasons and that is understandable, I'm sure there are some doctors that will be more than willing to do it and they will not be hard to find.
I also never said a doctor should pressure a patient to kill themselves. There should something specific written their will or living trust that specifically says that choose, if they are powerless to speak for themselves. The ones that can speak for themselves imo should have the right to die with dignity with less suffering.
I'm not sure a tradional marriage amendment is the answer, but I also never said I agree with gay marriage. I am against people like the ones that actually want to make it a law to be gay or do gay acts like sodomy. I also do not see why if you are gay why should not be able to serve in the armed forces. Does the fact you have alternate lifestyle change the fact that you are willing to give your life for your country? I really do not see how teachers that seduce their students have anything to do with this topic.
Finally, I believe I said in my opening statement way way up at the top that liberals have a agenda as well. They are guilty of forcing a gay lifestyle on people, and I don't agree with that either
*confusion*
Sun, 03/02/2008 - 17:18 ET by candanceOf course you don't think doctors should pressure patients into euthanasia - I never meant to insinuate that you were cool with that. All I meant was that to allow the small fraction of doctors with good intentions to do it in good faith, you would end up with thousands more who did it for the money - and we all know how well guidelines work in these situations.
For instance, abortion proponents always say that a woman must choose her own path - but Planned Parenthood is fraught with workers who encourage and even compell young girls to go along with it, and little is done by the government to stop this. It never seems to be as simple as "having the option open."
You don't see pedophilia and polygamy in the same class as being gay? You don't think child molesters claim God created them that way? You don't think they feel discriminated unfairly? You really believe gay marriage would be the end of it?
un confused now
Sun, 03/02/2008 - 19:41 ET by shawn228Gotcha, I am glad we cleared that up.
"You don't see pedophilia and polygamy in the same class as being gay?
You don't think child molesters claim God created them that way? You
don't think they feel discriminated unfairly? You really believe gay
marriage would be the end of it?"
I really do not see the corelation at all candance. child molesters and to a point polygamy prey on young children. They usually involve children that are defenseless from a very sick minded adult. Being gay or the act of being gay usually involves two willing participants that are usually around the same age or legal age.
I don't buy into this born this way crap. If your gay, so be it no need to justify it to me.
okay...
Sun, 03/02/2008 - 22:20 ET by candanceIt seems we are at an impasse on this issue. Christians (well most of us) believe that all forms of sexual perversions are the same, be it homosex or multiple partner sex or whatever.
It's kind of a stereotype to say that polygamists prey on little kids. You'd like us to believe that pedophiles and polygamists are all creepy men who live in basements and kidnap five year old kids.
What's the difference between a 15 year old who says he's gay and one who says he's in love with a 20 year old teacher? Are they any less sincere? Do they not really mean it?
Teens have sex with each other all the time - if an adult wants to get in on the action, who are you to stop them?
"Teens have sex with each
Sun, 03/02/2008 - 22:44 ET by shawn228"Teens have sex with each other all the time - if an adult wants to get in on the action, who are you to stop them?"
I probably can't, just like I can't stop teen agers from having straight sex. Is there really a difference?
t's kind of a stereotype to say that polygamists prey on little
kids. You'd like us to believe that pedophiles and polygamists are all
creepy men who live in basements and kidnap five year old kids.
What's the difference between a 15 year old who says he's gay and
one who says he's in love with a 20 year old teacher? Are they any less
sincere? Do they not really mean it?
The difference is 15 yr old in love with a teacher and sleeping with him is a crime, a 18 yr old doing the same thing is completely legal. I don't care if the person is lives in the basement or a penthouse on Park Avenue, when you prey on kids, it is creepy
How inspiring is this man?
okay
Mon, 03/03/2008 - 00:47 ET by candanceThe difference is 15 yr old in love with a teacher and sleeping with him is a crime, a 18 yr old doing the same thing is completely legal.
But what if a 16/17 year old insists that they are mature enough and they don't want some random birthdate telling them when they can start dating grownups?
Who decides that 18 is the magic number?
If a 16 or 17yr old decided
Mon, 03/03/2008 - 00:53 ET by shawn228If a 16 or 17yr old decided to have sex with someone their own age, I would not like it, but that happens all the time in high school. Heck I know it happenned in mine and that was over 20 yrs ago.
If someone wanted to have sex with an adult "over 18" I would say the government decides that number. As far as I know that is the current law.
How inspiring is this man?
right shawn
Mon, 03/03/2008 - 01:16 ET by candanceI know we're getting into the weeds here a little, but this is crux of the issue. Why is the government allowed to say 18 is the magic number? Is that not a moral boundary? And if so, can that boundary not be changed?
Like I said before, we've come to an impasse on this issue and I fear we can't say much more without going in circles.
Agreed Candance
Mon, 03/03/2008 - 01:26 ET by shawn228I have stated that 18 is the appropriate age and I agree with the current laws. It is also the age that you can fight and die for our country.
I guess that # can be changed, but I imagine that if it ever came to a vote in the congress, it will not pass even with a Democratic congress.
I'm glad we got the age thing out of the way. So that being said, when someone is at least of legal age, I find nothing immoral about someone viewing or participating in porn. Currently both these are within the law.
I find many Christians on right, that have a problem with this and are pretty much on crusade to eliminate filth from this country. They are convinced our nation will be destroyed if we do not pray for revival.
That is why I want to unbundle tv. If people don't want filth in their home, they do not need to subsribe the the channel in question. If they are scared their kids can see it and only want wholesome channels. That is what they can subscibe to.
How inspiring is this man?
I'm ba-a-ack!
Mon, 03/03/2008 - 13:01 ET by candanceJust wanted to pop in here with a few more thoughts.
You speak with such assuredness that current laws regarding age and sex will remain that way. Since you are comfortable and happy with them, you figure they will stay that way forever.
I'm not saying that to be rude or snappy. In fact I admire your optimism. Fact is, most Christians don't share it. The Bible tells us that it's all pretty much downhill from here - the most base and vile lifestyles/entertainment will be brought into the forefront and become the norm. The church will be marginilazed even more until it's pretty much made illegal.
That's the major difference between you and me. You assume that our government will always apply safe but comfortable limits you can live with - because you're in the norm.
You assume that America can take up all the adult entertainment, put it into a neat little box, and tell it to stay there. I submit to you that it is never content to stay there. It is not content to exist behind closed doors. Playboy, HBO, rated R movies...those used to be the nice little boxes and that hasn't worked out so well. You essentially want us to lower the bar and try it all over.
Candance, You bring up a
Mon, 03/03/2008 - 13:52 ET by BinxlyCandance,
You bring up a point I wanted to put more light upon, get it more into focus. You mention that if we allow homosexuals to have the same rights in marriage, both in terminology as well as the perks that come with it, that it will 'open the floodgates.' The often referenced issue brought up in defense of being anti-gay marriage is the pedophilia or beastiality argument. Well we all know to compare human intercourse with animal/human intercourse is just insane. I refuse to take anyone seriously on that front. However, here you've presented a viable arguement, at least at the surface.
You mention the issue of not only underage sex with an adult, but also the seducing of those in a position of trust and power to their 'subordinates.' (ex coaches or teachers with their students.) Now even if a person was of age of consent, if a coach in a school were to seduce them as their student, it is still immoral and frowned deeply upon, even if it is a heterosexual pairing.
There's the rub, both homosexuality and this scenario are compared often, but there is nothing relative between the two. A homosexual male KNOWS that if he were to seduce a child or even an adult who is his student, that it is wrong. Not because of homosexuality, but because of the violation of trust, the crossing of that line. You say if people were to accept homosexuality as 'they are born that way' that many would come forward saying their 'issues' of pedophilia and abuse of trust of a child or student is something they are 'born with.' That is like equating tolerance of gays with tolerance of murder.
The unfair thing here is, you are intially saying to a group of people 'NO form of your love is as 'right' or 'just' as ours. You will forever be the odd ones out because if we accept you, we must accept pedophiles and those who enact in beastiality alike.'
Just read that last sentence. Its harsh, isn't it? A lil crazy perhaps even? Well, by using that argument, that is basically the message we are giving. Also, as I said before, you cannot compare apples to oranges. You cant equate someone's sexual preference with those who would use a child. Sure, thats also a sexual preference, but we are talking about basic v.s. specific. Until I see studies proving homosexuality LEADS to pedophilia or beastiality, I have still yet to see a valid argument against homosexual love.
I know Binx
Mon, 03/03/2008 - 14:08 ET by candanceAs I told Shawn above, this is the point where we come to an impasse. You believe homosex is normal and I do not. You believe different sexual urges are apples and oranges and I do not.
As we've spoken about before, you believe gay people are in love while pedophiles are in lust. Since *you* believe polygamy and pedophilia are wrong, you've no problem calling them sin. Yet there are cultures across the globe where these things are accepted as norm.
Since mainstream Americans at this moment favor homosex but not polygamy, our laws reflect the same. What happens when we get a boom of Muslim Americans who want to have more than one wife? Consenting adults being happy, who are they hurting? Not so many years ago, girls as young as 13 and 14 were getting married, and they weren't left emotionally scarred - they happily stayed with their husbands.
But since modern Americans see that as creepy we feel comfortable calling it sin.
Try for a moment to separate homosex and pedophilia in your mind. I never said gay people fall into pedophilia. I'm specifically talking about cultural norms. One is accepted by the mainstream and one is not. You can sit in a restaurant in America and bash men who marry young girls because society looks down on it here. Go travel to some other countries, they don't look down on it.
Thus, you want to legalize stuff you feel comfortable with and condemn things you don't like. And since most Americans are on your side it's a convenient position to take.What happens when 60% of Americans say men have a right to marry young girls - will you still say it's a sin? Or do you honestly believe that will never happen because mainstream America in 2008 doesn't like it?
I see your point. I wish
Mon, 03/03/2008 - 14:16 ET by BinxlyI see your point. I wish I had the answers, alas I do not. I only wish I had the ability to find them. Until then I do all I can, focus on the basic perception of logical decisions, taking into account if the adults are adults, if there is consent, and as long as the two previous choices are there, I see no issue with it. I see what you mean however. I'll admit too, I do have my own personal opinions vested in this issue, but not so much the homosexual side, as I *personally* cannot understand a union that does not clearly have a 'male' and 'female' identity evident in the union. That is not to say they would NEED to be of that initial bio-sex, but then again, as I said, these are simply my own biases. I try my damndest to keep them out of my debate though. Like I said, I just have someone who I think is a great person and these kind of laws ruin any close chance to any semblance of a normal life she might ever hope of having. Damnit....there goes my own bias.....seriously, Ill admit Candance, this is a tough issue. Like I said, if only we knew the answers. Some claim they do and I respect that. I however need more of a reason than 'because that's how it is.'
agreed binx
Mon, 03/03/2008 - 14:42 ET by candanceSadly, though, when you boil down any law or moral boundary, "that's the way it is" always seems to be the basic point.
So all we can do is influence our culture to agree with our premise over someone else's. We're like different colored mice chasing the same piece of cheese - and the winner gets to decide what everyone else has for supper. That's democracy at its root.
I hope you don't think that I claim to have all the answers. I'm just as torn up about our government as you are. But I recognize that someone has to win the day so my natural instinct is to want that person to be me.
hehe no worries, that
Mon, 03/03/2008 - 14:46 ET by Binxlyhehe no worries, that wasn't a barb at you or anyone, well, maybe at all of us actually. As you said quite well, at the end of the day we all hope we come out on top of the battle for morality. I usually, as most Christians, reference God's word for guidance but when I'm not provided with reason other than 'it is what it is' then I get a lil curious and tend to think God would be more thorough than that.
Basically I see it as this. If the cheese is poison, then to eat it would risk death. therefore, the law would be, do not take the cheese or you shall commit yourself to death. However, when there doesn't seem to be much 'evil' or 'wrong' about homosexuality in my own opinion, that's where I need more proof of its evil. Make no mistake, again, if it was proven ALL homosexuals were indeed just like their much louder mouthpiece (ie the protesters, the in your face paraders, etc) and their morals were as basement level as those Ive seen in gay clubs, then yes, I'd be against it as well.
it's all bacon
Mon, 03/03/2008 - 16:00 ET by candanceThe issue of homosex, for the present, will always end in a stalemate. A little orange name on NB [me] will not have more pull than a friendship in real life. On my side, a debate on NB will not overcome deep religious conviction.
So we state our beliefs, make our case, and hope we can make a dent somewhere.
In the end it's usually best to call truce and leave as friends - as long we keep respectful rappor with each other there is hope change can come down the road.
Couldn't agree more. :)
Mon, 03/03/2008 - 16:29 ET by BinxlyCouldn't agree more. :)
well then
Sat, 03/01/2008 - 19:15 ET by candanceI was out shopping with hubby and my ear started burning; I told him someone was talking about me. : - )
Please don't take this the wrong way because I am *so not* trying to sound condescending...but I ask you to trust me that the church is not as scary as you believe. We disagree over details and methods, but most of us want the same things.
Christians like Botg don't enjoy going around being the moral police and outlawing things. It really isn't about enforcing a personal moral code - it's just the need for there to be some moral code somewhere.
Suicide is a sin in most Christians eyes.
Who said anything about suicide? I don't agree with sick people taking their own lives early - now I realize there is not much I can do to stop them if they're determined but doctors should not go around encouraging it. When I speak of euthanasia I mean people who want to die naturally without machines and artificial life support.
It seems we need more precise definitions of these issues.
Be nice to gays means be nice to them. No one, regardless of their views on marriage, thinks it's okay to treat gay people bad. Most of us are perfectly happy with them living wherever they want and carrying on with their lives.
Civil unions are sticky because it's so undefined. Does that mean stuff like sharing healthcare plans and credit scores, or does that mean full legal benefits of a married couple? Christians don't like civil unions because they see it as a slippery slope - whatever compromise we come up with will eventually be undone until gay marriage is accomplished.
So we need to define the perimeters of what a civil union would be.
Why is it anyone elses business if someone wants to pay for sex?
Like I said before, with prostitution I kinda see your point but it never seems to be that simple. And this goes back to Christians who want to save society from woe. We don't enjoy coming up with laws and limiting behavior, but prostitution is a tool that often leads to wickedness.
Nice to see you again Mr. Shy! I sent your video to my mom and she loved it!
And yes, I think unsane made a good point before that at the end of the day someone's morals will be enforced on us all. Those who complain about the FCC and the marriage laws have no problem preaching about the moral obligations of taxing the rich to save the poor.
That's why the White House is called the bully pulpit: it's a handy tool to enforce an agenda.
What really saddens me about the modern church, and this goes back to what Ben said up above...if the modern church took care of its own and stood as a city on a hill, we could influence our culture from the inside out to bring change. Instead, we want to have our slinky clothing and borderline profanity, and then scream at the world because they're a little bit worse.
Down here Candance
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 00:32 ET by shawn228I did not want to do the skinny thing so I am responding down here.
Yes I would hope that society continues to protect our children and from I have seen, they have been enforcing the 18 yr old law for over a decade now. If they decide to lower that age requirment for having sexual relations with an adult I will the first to protest it.
Yes I have admitted it before in this thread. I want it both ways. People keep saying that that the current safeguards like the v-chip is not good enough and I keep saying back that if we unbundle tv channels and give people a choice on what they subscribe to, that is the best way to do it.
If an adult decides they want to see a prostitute and not have any strings attached, why should they not have that right? Making prostitution illegal gives all the power to the pimps and human trafficking.
This system has worked many years in the Netherlands "successfully I might add" It is a bunch of religious fanatics that want to ruin the fun.
This bothers me alot because they cannot mind their own business, they are not satisfied that they have heard the gospel themselves, but insist that others do it as well. JMHO.
Lets blame the media
sensing hostility
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 00:43 ET by candanceI don't have any problem with your unbundling idea - in fact I'm all for it. I just don't think it will keep AE any more secure.
Like I said up top, I'm really not concerned about the concept of prostitution as much as the overall trouble it brings. Yes I understand the Netherlands legalized it. Doesn't mean I'm quite sold on working here.
The rest of your post sounds more like yelling at Christians than anything else.
candance
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 00:54 ET by shawn228No yelling here candance, If I come across that way I apologize. It just bothers me when people ruin things for everybody else just because they don't like it.
I don't see how my idea would not make AE more secure. The people that don't want filth in their homes don't have to subscibe to it. The ones that do subscibe to it, have to realize it is up to them to not let their children view it.
Lets blame the media
it's okay
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 01:06 ET by candanceI'm sure you didn't mean to sound hostile but it kinda did. I'm just sayin. We all have our moments. :-p
I really want you to look beyond the idea that Christians play "party pooper" just because they want everyone else to be prudes. Even when Christians take hard-right postions I don't care for I understand why they feel that way. It's not about telling people what to do - it honestly isn't. We take positions because we feel these things are hurtful to society.
Thus when you tell a Christian to butt out and mind their own business, please understand how hurtful that is. It's like if you knew a child who was being abused, and when you tried to help they accused you of being the moral police. Now I realize that's a *very poor* analogy but that's how it makes us feel.
So Christians get very defensive when they are marginalized.
You say your idea would work great because Christians could only pay for "safe" shows. My point is that the safe networks don't stay safe. Thus as they become more risque you start cutting them too until all you're left with is TBN and Toon Disney.
candance
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 01:16 ET by shawn228My idea would be capitalism at its finest. The tv stations that would be left are the ones that turned a profit. Obviously there is a huge market for family oriented shows. If this is truly Chrstian nation, those channels should thrive.
I'm sure it is hurtful to a liberal when you tell them not interfere with drilling in Anwar, I'm sure it is hurtful to liberal when you tell them not to tell us how much trans fat we have. Do you feel they have any business interfering in these things?
Lets blame the media
Shawn,
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 01:25 ET by R D HelmI'm sure it is hurtful to liberal when you tell them not to tell us how much trans fat we have.
LMAO-Hey, it was hurtful to me when I heard this, too, and I'm a libertarian.
-Sorry. :-)
lol rdh
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 01:29 ET by shawn228Did I not mention I am suing Burger King for my high cholesteral ? ;-)
Lets blame the media
Shawn,
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 02:15 ET by R D HelmNote: I'm laughing so hard here, I can barely type.
You know, given the number of Double Whoppers w/ cheese I have ingested over the years, not to mention their most excellent chicken sandwich (I am referring to the fried one, with two buckets of mayo on it) we might could go for "class action" status.
Only problem is, twelve years hence, once the case has been settled and the lawyers have gotten their cut, we'd get about $12.00 each.
LOL-Just enough, by then, to pop for a couple more Double Whoppers.
With cheese, of course. :-)
PS-And just think, we will still be able to go across the street to Mickey D's and get a couple of large fries.
R D (and Shawn)...
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 03:12 ET by JerIn spite of my moaning about the considerable medical bills I have had to deal with the past couple of years [which my crackerjack health policy didn't cover], I suppose I must bear some responsibility since I had known for twenty-five years about my predisposition for high cholesterol, and yet contiued to woof down about a ton of quarterpounders.
Two angioplasties later I'm not so sure they were worth it. [I had been in denial partly because my mom, from whom I inherited the predisposition, has always been a picture of health, and at age 85 still insists on climbing up on my roof to clean out the gutters.]
Anyway guys, check your cholesterol regularly and go easy on the cheeseburgers.
Jer
Jer,
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 03:36 ET by R D HelmIf your dear mother, at age 85, still insists on "going up" and cleaning the gutters, all I can say is, God bless the lady, and more power to her!
Heck, I am but three weeks shy of 44, and even I don't want to climb beyond the first floor for that.
And my fast food cheeseburger days are well behind me, as I only allow myself one per month, and even then only one that has been grilled in my own backyard.
For me, it's essentially fish, chicken, salad and veggies these days. Steaks are pretty much limited to sirloin fillets every couple of weeks, and pork (of any kind) is essentially holiday fare only.
And, as a borderline Type II, I now pretty much avoid "white food" as if it were poison, 'cause in my case, it basically is.
Damnit! :-(
Getting old sux.
RD and Jer
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 04:38 ET by well99When you get to certain stage of life you really have to watch what you eat.At least in my case.Type 2 also but I am on Metformin(SP) and other stuff..no needles yet.I also try to eat more fish but sometimes I need greasy burger.I stir fry steak if I have it with lots of veggies.Also excessive hot sauce.Suppose to be good for the lungs.Also try to eat alot of chicken.White meat that is.Youth is wasted on the young.Also Jer agree with RD God bless the Lady.Wish her the best.
I feel a little guilty
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 19:03 ET by JerI feel a little guilty about my mother being up on the roof...but, my gutters do need cleaning--and it's cheap labor. <major sarc> I love you, Mom!
Jer
lmao
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 19:09 ET by well99Jer You should be ashamed.You did pay your mom union scale correct.
Shhhh...I'm slipping her a
Wed, 03/05/2008 - 08:56 ET by JerShhhh...I'm slipping her a few bucks under the table--plus all the oatmeal she can eat.
Jer
lol
Wed, 03/05/2008 - 10:59 ET by well99Thats a good deal Jer.
well Shawn
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 01:30 ET by candanceThere is a difference you're missing out on here. I know liberals take positions because they care about things. They're wrong, but they're passionate. I don't look at them with the assumption that they're trying to be mean.
Yet a lot of lefties do see Christians as control freaks who are just being mean.
If this is truly Chrstian nation, those channels should thrive.
We are mostly Christian at the moment but speeding in the other direction. Another reason why modern Christians are so outspoken...we see the impending darkness and it saddens us.
candance
Tue, 03/04/2008 - 01:42 ET by shawn228I totally see your point candance and I could care less if it is democrat or a republican, if someone is taking away my rights, I do not like it.
Just like I was saying to TWC earlier. I like your live and let live positition. The thing is I understand about modern Christians sadness about the impeding darkness, but shouldn't they worry about their own souls than worry about the heathens around them?
Lets blame the media