I'll call this: "The Universal Healthcare Thread."

Photo of tracheostomy.

I couldn't come up with anything better than that really. >:p

As a former lib, this is probably the one issue I'm still on the fence about. 

I'm completely uninformed about the money-end of the topic in any detail whatsoever, other than the fact that I heard the healthcare system is "broken" somewhere, and I agree, only I can't narrow it down any better than that.

So for me at least, this is not a debate thread. 

EDIT:  Some may have misunderstood this ^^^ to mean that I'm not allowing debate.  As always, I cannot tell you what to post; only the fact that I am coming here as a learner first and foremost.  If you do have something to debate, I'd love to see it hashed out myself.

I'm pretty much willing to hear everyone out on this. . .with a clean mental slate.  Comprehensive lists are more than welcome!  I know what Obama has promised if he becomes president (the big heathcare round-table on C-span and all) and it sounds really-really neato. . .but I have my nagging suspicions.  

Not that I'm a one-issue voter by a longshot, but this is the one issue I think it's time to put on the table before the elections so we know what we want going into the polls.

So, who wants to start?

-PJ   

  


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I see universal health care

I see universal health care as another unwarranted government intrusion.The more bloated,controlling and ineffective government becomes,the more I am inclined to reject it all.

Universal Healthcare

In the US – Understanding the power triangle in Healthcare –

A precursor to understanding the triangle is why the government is not listed as a leg of the triangle and that is because government regulation sets parallel to all three legs and has different effects on. Also, not included in this explanation is the patient since they are not a power entity because their input into American Medical Healthcare is only as a tool of the insurance companies, lawyers or government. This is not to be construed as all inclusive.

Leg One – Hospital Administration:
Leg Two – Insurance/Lawyers
Leg Three – Doctors

A hospital is a business and as such their goal is to make a profit; even non-profit hospitals are in the business of profit for reinvestment since the pay of its administration is based on the number of beds in the hospital. Hospital Administrations are stuck between the needs of the needs to supply the needs of the customers of insurance companies and federal government dollar recipients with the demands of the doctors for equipment, money and labor (support staff). If a Hospital Administration starts to favor the doctors they will start losing insurance and federal money due to inefficient work practices. If a Hospital Administration starts to favor the money received from the government and insurance companies then disgruntled doctors will no longer associate with the hospital.

Insurance and lawyers are listed together because they are a direct relationship in cost and care. One side of insurance deals with malpractice insurance for the doctors which is directly related law suits which are signified here by the lawyers (see below). The other side of insurance is “patient care”. The ideal situation for insurance companies, also seeking a profit, is a patient paying in for coverage and never needing medical coverage. Since the situation is impossible, in order to maximize profits and prevent abuses of the system insurance companies established rules and regulations for the payment of medical services. These rules are generally in direct conflict with the desires of Hospital Administrations and the Doctors.

Doctors are forced to follow the insurance company standards to maintain a solid customer base and at the same time pay out huge malpractice insurance rates due to law suits. While it seems the doctors are the “poor guy caught in the middle”, remember everyone in this system knows that without doctors this multi-billion dollar industry collapses so they are generally a well paid and sought after asset.

In the end you end up with a triangle of power with each leg trying to increase their profits. What ends up happening is that the each institution finds new ways to make or save money that ultimately causes the federal reimbursements to increase or the cost to insurance companies to increase or both. Those costs are passed on to the tax payers and the insurance policy holders in the way of new/higher taxes and higher insurance programs.

This system is obviously not working but before we give credence to a national healthcare plan you need to look at why it is not working and see where a national system may help or hurt.
1) Hospital Administrations are tied to the payments they receive from the government and insurance companies. This does not change with any of the national healthcare plans and in fact becomes worse since the hospitals will be solely reliant on those payments.
2) Hospital Administrations are run by people seeking profits and increase salaries and this is also not altered by national healthcare plans.
3) The doctors are highly trained assets that are sought after with money and benefits (like all employees) and are in limited supply. The only way this issue is covered in any national healthcare plan is to limit doctor income. They don’t label it as such but when you mandate $$/procedure then you are limiting income or promoting the procedure. It is only a matter of time before that procedure is cut or the payment amended if the costs get too high. You limit doctor income and you will get fewer doctors and ever worse patient care.
4) Limiting law suits has been brought up in national healthcare platforms but on a personal note: since lawyers are creating these proposals I doubt you will see any real limitations placed on legal actions.
5) Insurance companies are out for profit as well and they hold a powerful card in that they control a majority of the patients and therefore they wield undue power in medical decisions that effect patient care. There are two trains of thought on national healthcare where one allows for the insurance companies to retain control of their client base but operate under government “guidelines” and the other is that the government takes over the whole medical insurance industry. In neither case do you remove the basic problem of an entity having too much control and making decisions based on $$ instead of the value of patient care.

In all cases a national system fails even compared to our current system because not only do you have the same problems you are also saddled with increased bureaucracy and increased waste (remember this is going to be a government program). I would love to see everyone have access to medical treatment when they need it but just like zero unemployment it is a scenario that reality will not allow no matter how many programs you set up or how much money you spend.

Thanks Agnostic. . .

That was a great read, and appeared to sum it all up nicely.  If you have any more details on this (or links), I'd love to see those as well. 

So according to #3, Agnostic proposes that our quality of care will be cut back if left as-is.

But if nationalized, it will also come with similar problems that are equally undesirable.

Are there any proposed solutions that are currently floating around that haven't been picked up by the MSM?   

-PJ

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07

hey Trake

I am against the idea of government healthcare and here are a few reasons why:

Healthcare entitlements such as Medicare, Medicaid, and SCHIP already cost our government over 600 billion dollars a year and are reported to go bankrupt with the decade.

The Kaiser Foundation projects that it would cost us at least a trillion dollars and Americans would feasibly see their taxes hit 70% of their income to pay for universal coverage.

European countries with good healthcare do not have our military, space, or infrastructure costs. Their tax burden (with government healthcare and better public schools) is roughly half of their income. We are already paying a third.

Countries with government healthcare have begun to put restrictions on citizens who might become a burden to the system.

That great northern paradise Canada is already feeling the pinch of government healthcare and currently trying to choose between charging a copay or raising more taxes.

The UK's dental service is almost nonexistant as more and more dentists opt out of government payment to make money in the private sector. Because of the shortages, almost half the citizens do not have access to a government dentist and some 20% don't visit a dentist at all.

 

In short, American politicians want government healthcare as a backdoor way to fix Medicaid.

For our system to even be on the same level as Canada's, we would have to choose between military and infrastructure or healthcare.

 

 

 

Great links Cand!  I'll

Great links Cand!  I'll get to them later today.  Appreciated.

-PJ

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07

"For our system to even be

"For our system to even be on the same level as Canada's, we would have
to choose between military and infrastructure or healthcare. "

That is a great point candance. I have said all along that Canada has good health system any Canadian that is on this site has mentioned how good it it is.

Thx for at least not slamming the Canadian system just for the sake of slamming it.

I have said all along that i would like a some sort of Universal Health Care system in this country, but there is no way we can afford it now with fighting two wars the waste of money war on drugs, Social security , and 9 trillion dollar debt,and the housing crises

I don't really buy into the other arguments, but the "we can't afford it right now " is true. I hope we can afford it someday.

 

Lets blame the media

(sigh)

 

That is a great point candance. I have said all along that Canada has good health system any Canadian that is on this site has mentioned how good it it is.  So good, that ONE SINGLE hospital in Houston's Texas Medical Center outspends the ENTIRE NATION of Canada in medical research.  Hmmm..  Maybe that also explains why Canada has done absolutely nothing to advance medical frontiers since 1968. 

So good, that a Vietnamese child by the name of Son Pham went to Toronto to have a horrific growth removed from his face, only to be told "It's only a birthmark.  Go home."  (A doctor in Boston, last I heard, was treating the boy instead.)

So good, that Canadians stream south of the border all the time for medical care that they can get ON DEMAND as long as they can pay for it. 

I have said all along that i would like a some sort of Universal Health Care system in this country, but there is no way we can afford it now with fighting two wars the waste of money war on drugs, Social security , and 9 trillion dollar debt,and the housing crises  Again, and again, and again, you have no right to bitch about the debt when you gleefully want to run the United States budget into the ground so you can be babied with a FREE doctor.  What's next after that, Shawn?  Do I get to pay for your groceries?  Your light bill?  Your car payment? 

I bet you'd be HAPPY if the United States were $36 trillion in debt as long as you had a "free" doctor (and zero ability to project power). 

By the way, perhaps you can explain what the government has to do with the housing "crisis".  Last time I checked, 94% of homeowners are making their payments on time.  The other 6% are more than likely financially irresponsible or reckless to begin with and get what they deserve.  Why don't I have a house?  Because I Can't Afford One Right Now. 

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

Σ

I knew it was too good to last

I was actually on the winning side of FS scoreboard twice in a week. I will refrain from posting on this thread, because no matter what I post, I will get a bad score from the East Ger....Jersey judge :-)

Too bad too, the scoreboard thing is kind of more fitted for someone in his teens and not for a father of 2.

Updated

Out of curiosity what I have i done to deserve your scoreboard today? Did I say something trollish, Did I say Bush lied, hes a Neo Con? Haliburtion, Scooter Libby, Lied to us for this war? Any of the liberal talking points that many liberals do?

I thought I was being respecful. The only thing I said was I have experienced the Canadian medical system and it is good. Are you accusing me of lying? Please answer the question fs.

When unsane and I have debates of the Canadian medical system, it seems to go round and round pointlessly because most of the time I tell him it is good, and he will show some link to someone who hates it, I will tell him no one in Canada goes broke from health bills and what if he got sick? He says the what if questions should not apply. I disagree because millions of americans get seriously ill every year. this is the first time I was interupted with something as immature as your scoreboard.

America's sweetheart does gangsta rap

(ugh)

 When unsane and I have debates of the Canadian medical system, it seems to go round and round pointlessly because most of the time I tell him it is good um, mediocre, but not GOOD.  Hospitals close there routinely for lack of funding.  Provincial Premiers CONSTANTLY WHINE to Ottawa for more money to coddle and baby their citizens with.  Doctors and nurses there often strike and if you are scheduled for a procedure that day...too bad.  Go back in line and wait another 3-6-9 or so weeks and/or months.  Oh, and again, Canada has NOT advanced medical frontiers, period, since 1968.  For medical advancements, you head south of the 49th., and he will show some link to someone who hates it there are plenty who do if you visit hospitals in Buffalo, Minneapolis, Seattle, and other cities, I will tell him no one in Canada goes broke from health bills but so what if Canadians are C$8100 poorer than their American counterparts?  And people go broke ALL THE TIME for ALL SORTS of reasons.  Let's face it, Shawn.  When you whine about not wanting to go broke over a doctor, what you are really saying is that you want to be shielded from the act of LIFE, where LOTS of people go broke for LOTS of different reasons.  (By the way, the last two years of my life have SUCKED financially.)  and what if he got sick?  Here's my answer, busybody: THAT'S LIFE.  I will DEAL WITH IT, because THAT IS LIFE.  Throw whatever "What if" at me: THAT is your answer.  You cry so much about individual freedoms on other threads yet you sure are eager to deprive me of my freedom to evaluate and accept risk.  He says the what if questions should not apply.  Only because I can play that game day in and day out for the rest of my life, no matter what activity I decide to pursue, no matter what decision I make.  Part of this game called LIFE is an element called RISK.  You wish to completely eliminate it and life a 100% no-fault existence.  Me, I'd rather roll the dice because I understand there is a relationship between RISK and REWARD, and that is also a very important element of LIFE.  I disagree because millions of americans get seriously ill every year.  And THAT IS LIFE. 

There is no vaccine to shield you from LIFE as much as you desperately want there to be one.  (Well, there IS death, but that is a bit self-defeating.)

Let me ask you this, since you lose sleep constantly over people going broke for doctors...

If this SO BOTHERS you, why not, instead of running, crying to the government to pamper and baby everyone, and punish and steal from me for daring to be wiser and healthier than the rest of the population:

WHY NOT GET TOGETHER WITH YOUR LEFTIST FRIENDS AND START A F#!KING CHARITY THAT DEALS WITH THIS PROBLEM???  What, is that to hard to ask?  Let me tell you something: you do that, I will contribute to it.  But I am sick and tired of people who want to shackle me to the lowest common denominators in society because a few people out there can't seem to do what I routinely do (spend wisely and prudently evaluate risk)...and I am not the sharpest blade in the drawer.

I had to put up with that nonsense in public school and it SUCKED.  I hated being dragged down to the level of the dumbest kid in the class by the teacher on a daily basis.  Why should I be tied to the lowest common denominator in society all the time?

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

I know whats coming FreeStinker

I will do it for you

Unsane: 2

Shawn: 0

When you have the time, I hope you have a chance to answer my question. thank you.

 

 

America's sweetheart does gangsta rap

Actually, the terminology is incorrect.

shawn228,

Trying to define Canada's Universal Healthcare as a socialized medical program is incorrect. The Canadian Government established a socialized health insurance program to cover medical costs and procedures for all of its citizens. Health Insurance Companies are not allowed to compete for procedures already covered by the Government's Insurance program. The theory behind this is the competition from the Insurance Companies would raise the rates the Government has already secured for the population. The Private Insurance Companies may provide insurance for procedures not covered by the Canadian Government. Preventive care increases and the population becomes healthier under this socialized insurance program. I know the anti-socialist NBers will begin their attack after I post this comment.No matter what they say, they benefit from being part of a society which helps everyone. This is where we need to start focusing on the health care problems and issues of today by looking to changing the insurance companies vice grip on our health care policies. We should be able to cover everyone in the US. Before anyone starts tapping at the keyboard in responding to my comment, think for a second, large corporations with a huge workforce are able to negotiate with insurance companies for the best rates and best coverage. Now, look at the US as a HUGE corporation with 300 million employees...we should be able to negotiate for the BEST rates & coverage, period.

Syrius

 

"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott

 

Great, now I'm a corporate asset

Instead of a lowly citizen-unit! Such a difference...
JMR

A corruption-story the TV media will-not cover.

To the insurance companies...

Sarcasmo,

If your doctor had to cut off your toe, your insurance company would cover the cost and then write it off as a loss on their tax forms at the end of the year...which in effect...the taxpayer just paid for your toe amputation by the lack of the tax revenue from the insurance company. So, yeah, we all pay no matter how you slice it.(-off, pun intended.)

Syrius

 

"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott

 

Health care continued

I haven't had to be hospitalized in 7-8 years, and that was due to pneumonia.  No one paid for that hospitalization but ME, and I don't expect to pay for anyone elses.  I sure as all hell do not expect people like you to steal from me to pay for your doctor because I 1) can better manage my finances better than others and 2) am healthier and thus don't need to pay for a doctor, and in fact have not paid for a doctor in the time frame noted above.

In fact, I am seriously considering dropping my HMO when I return home and going it alone.  The money I pay into that thing every week can go into my own savings account, and I can draw from it when I get sick, if I EVER get sick.

Don't whine to me either about myriad "what ifs".  As I explained to Shawn above, that is a part of life, which is something Socialists want desperately to absolve and inoculate themselves from.  Besides, for someone who whines constantly about how your freedoms are being taken away, you sure are adamant about wanting to take my freedom to evaluate, accept, and bear risk. 

One other nasty fact that neither you and Shawn are man enough to squarely face is that (to quote FP, one of my fave mags, from last summer)there is no plainly superior alternative to the health care system that we currently have anywhere, AND that health care is an issue everywhere.  Everywhere.  (If it isn't in Canada, perhaps Shawn can explain why Happyland commissioned the Romanow Report around 2003 or so, and why it was the lead topic in both the 2004 and 2006 federal elections, if Peter Mansbridge and The National on CBC can be believed.) 

In fact, when I get spare time, I will offer my tweaks to the current U.S. health care system.  Neither of you Socialists will be pleased, because none of my ideas involve slitting the throat of the goose that lays the golden eggs for 1/7 of the economy of the United States.   

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

Socialism

So Canadian health insurance is a government owned monopoly as private insurance is not allowed.

Socialism. 

Coincidentally, Canada has done absolutely NOTHING to advance medical frontiers since 1968.  Or IS that a coincidence?

Congratulations, Syrius.  Once again, another Leftist/Socialist whose claims of being a "fiscal conservative" with an "open mind" ring hollow.  Syrius is just another Leftist/Socialist who is too deeply ashamed to admit it, just as I am sure (based on another post I responded to on a different thread) he is deeply ashamed of the United States' ability to project power. 

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

unsane ... and another

unsane ... and another point.

Anyone who uses an argument supporting the idea that competition raises price clearly has no idea what they are talking about. And most certainly has no idea of how capitalism works.

Or.. they are talking thru their ass.

Adam Smith quite clearly demonstrated how monopolistic supply was anathema to the Wealth of Nations.

Vote 4 change. Vote 4 anything. See Jack & Mr Shy's first campaign ad for the ONLY viable 3rd party candidate.

Suggestion

Jack, with you being in the UK, maybe you should enlighten some of these Socialists here on the joys of the NHS.  I read a book which outlined the early history of it, and that was more than enough to turn me away from socialized medicine forever... 

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

Shawn

I know whats coming FreeStinker I will do it for you

You're learning Shawn.

Now, if you can learn this, why do you refuse to learn economics?

Unsane

I have been wanting to respond to your post but was waiting for an answer from FS first. Unfortunatey he responded with sarcasm, when all I wanted was an honest answer. Hopefully he will be respectful and not use the juvenile scoreboard again.

The Canadian medical system is far from perfect, and many Canadians that have money come to the United States to get their treatment. I am well aware of that.

Lets talk about two of your major talking points. Canada has made no major medical advances since 1968 or they are 1800 poorer than their American counter points. I do not see how any of these points have anything to with someones quality of care.

I agree that a person should save enough for a rainy day. The thing is how much can someone save? If someone needs dyalisis or chemotheropy, the cost can run close to 100 grand. A very large chunk of the American population do not have that much in the bank and I'm sure that applys to many NB members as well.

If somebody drives a car without buying auto insurance and causes damage and has to pay through his nose the rest of his life, he will get no sympathy from me. To get a decent auto insurance rate, you have to a good driver with no tickets or accidents. You are in control of things.

Medical insurance is different, sure you can avoid things like Aids or lung cancer but unfortnately breast cancer, diabetes, sleep apnea, MS, Parkinsons are inconvenient diseases that can happen to anyone. Your attitude is pretty much too bad, so sad to these folks, You cannot buy it for decent price if you are not employed and even thogh you are willing to pay a ridiculous premium, they can deny you for having a pre existing condition. How is that fair? If you are laid off and your COBRA runs out. Even if choose to pay a ridiculus premium but are still denied?

I told you before, I don't like affirative action, welfare, free medical for illegals, but I am a fan of universal healthcare, because I find the system very unfair.

Yes unsane, I know.....life is unfair right?, no naaaany state right? That is why our debates go round and round.

America's sweetheart does gangsta rap

Fairness, thievery, mediocrity, dynamism vs. pampering, etc

 

Lets talk about two of your major talking points. Canada has made no major medical advances since 1968 or they are 1800 poorer than their American counter points. I do not see how any of these points have anything to with someones quality of care.   That's C$8100 poorer.  You would think that for all of that money society is giving up, for all of the shackling to the lowest common denominator the Canadian government does, that SOMETHING other than mediocrity would result.  But it doesn't.  Also, the fact that Canada has not advanced the frontiers of science since 1968 is EXTREMELY valid.  There is a reason we no longer bleed people to cure them, use mercury vapor, and have developed vaccines.  The reasons were NOT pure altruism.  Advances in science, technology and medicine are made because of screaming need and the fact that someone makes money off of it.  Why do you think MRIs and PETs and CATs were developed (example)?  Out of the kindness of the inventor's heart?  To get warm feelings?  Get real. 

Canada could actually be advancing medical frontiers and be contributing to the world of medical science, but instead, they want to coddle, pamper, nanny and baby their dismal failures...and for all of that, Toronto and Vancouver were STILL infested with bums when I was there, and Ottawa featured the mentally ill running the streets. 

I agree that a person should save enough for a rainy day. The thing is how much can someone save? If someone needs dyalisis or chemotheropy, the cost can run close to 100 grand. A very large chunk of the American population do not have that much in the bank and I'm sure that applys to many NB members as well.  What if I NEVER EVER need dialysis or chemotherapy?  If I do, well, that's life.  If I don't, why do people need to steal from me to pay for it?  Again, that is LIFE.  Pure and simple.

If I were to play this "what if" game, I would NEVER get anything accomplished. I mean, what if a meteor crashes through the roof of my home and hits me on the head?

The nasty truth is that you better save for a rainy day and don't bother with notions of how much you need...just save your money.  I'm stuffing my IRA right now, to the max, just in case I live to be 140...yet, I don't know if I will live to see 59 1/2.  But I do anyway. 

RISK.  REWARD.  LIFE.  DECISIONS.  CONSEQUENCES. 

If somebody drives a car without buying auto insurance and causes damage and has to pay through his nose the rest of his life, he will get no sympathy from me. To get a decent auto insurance rate, you have to a good driver with no tickets or accidents. You are in control of things.  Hell's bells!!!

Medical insurance is different, sure you can avoid things like Aids or lung cancer but unfortnately breast cancer, diabetes, sleep apnea, MS, Parkinsons are inconvenient diseases that can happen to anyone (and I can be stricken by an aneurysm tonight and die.  Who knows?  LIFE, Shawn, LIFE.). Your attitude is pretty much too bad, so sad to these folks and I FULLY EXPECT them to greet me the same way.  I don't go out seeking sympathy on a daily basis, You cannot buy it for decent price if you are not employed and even thogh you are willing to pay a ridiculous premium, they can deny you for having a pre existing condition. How is that fair?  Who said life is fair?  What IS this "fair"?  I'm confused... If you are laid off and your COBRA runs out.  OK...? Even if choose to pay a ridiculus premium but are still denied?  OK...?

One problem that I failed to address in some of my ideas below - did you read them yet? - is this attitude to rely on medical insurance for everything and all things.  Even I am guilty of that.  I wonder what would happen to medical insurance premiums if people ONLY used them for catastrophic events...say, things that cost $5000 or more?  For things that are less than that, what if people used an MSA instead and shopped (gasp!) for the best, cheapest doctor...perhaps even old-fashioned ones who made house calls? 

I personally have never spent much more than $100 at a doctor's office.  (Which is part of the reason I am thinking of joining - voluntarily - the ranks of the uninsured.)

I told you before, I don't like affirative action, welfare, free medical for illegals, but I am a fan of universal healthcare, because I find the system very unfair.  Well, I find it immoral that, because I am healthy and not a burden on society, and otherwise doing everything I am told, that your first impulse is to punish me for that and to steal from me to pay for something you REALLY ought to just go ahead and pay for all by yourself, just as you do your utilities, your car, your mortgage, etc.  You find health care too expensive?  Well, best not to run out and buy that $10K HDTV then.  Prioritize.  Whatever.  But whatever you do, stop punishing and stealing from me for that reprehensible crime of being responsible.

Please notice that for all the ripping I have done on stealing from others for "free" doctors, I have never once said our system was perfect.  See below for some of my ideas as to how it can be fixed for MUCH less.  But don't expect me to drop a nuke on San Antonio just because there's a fly in my kitchen. 

Yes unsane, I know.....life is unfair right? If life was fair, from my perspective, Maria Sharapova would be tutoring me in my Russian language studies for free. , no naaaany state right?  because Nanny States go absolutely nowhere.  The question is simple: do you keep the dynamism that makes the United States great, or do you trade it in for security and pampering?  Gee, guess what side I am on. That is why our debates go round and round.

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

I agree

I gotta say I'm with Unsane on this one. Yes I understand people can't always prevent getting sick, but we should find a solution that doesn't involve the government.

Please explain why millions of parents pay hefty taxes for their local government schools and then use more private money to buy a decent education. Please explain why the government taxes me for retirement and then tells me I'm on my own to retire. Could it be because those government programs have gone down the drain?

As far as your personal experience with Canada's healthcare, I believe you're being genuine, but that doesn't mean everyone who lives there has shared in your good fortune. Some people are waiting two years to get an MRI. In some places, there is one doctor for every 500 patients. I'm not making that stuff up - that's from Canadian sources.

Anyway, it's a classic liberal debate strategy to trot out the saddest hard luck stories, insist we pay more taxes to fix it, and then call us uncaring when we ask for plan B.

 

Candance

"I gotta say I'm with Unsane on this one"

No problem Candance, that is why this a disussion board. The point is to get or views across as oppossed to mocking somebody.

Yes some people are waiting a while for MRI's and there is doctor shortage in some rural areas. Overal if you look at the whole population, most are very happy with the Canadian system.

I have said before that I agree that we cannot afford universal healthcare right now. In the meantime, I would propose we regulate the medical industry where a person can puchase medical insurance even with a pre-existing condition and to cap their premiums at say $50,000.

This way the government does not have to pay for it, but at the same time it is fair to American citizens.

America's sweetheart does gangsta rap

 

Shawn:  Yes some people are

Shawn:  Yes some people are waiting a while for MRI's and there is doctor shortage in some rural areas.

If you actually want to wait on an MRI to rule out something like an aortic dissection, then be my guest. 

Shawn:  I have said before that I agree that we cannot afford universal healthcare right now. In the meantime, I would propose we regulate the medical industry where a person can puchase medical insurance even with a pre-existing condition and to cap their premiums at say $50,000.

What does everyone else think of that? 

Shawn, what do you think of Unsane's proposals?

Another question:  Any chance of these being brought up at Obama's C-Span roundtable, or do you think it's an empty campaign promise?

-PJ

 

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07

Trach

To be totally honest I was not expecting to be winning any battles in here. It is like a butcher at a PETA convention.

I just wanted to point out that the nation cannot afford a universal healthplan right now and that was it. I got flamed and just wanted an answer from the person.

I think Unsane has a very good idea about tort reform and there definitely are some frivolous lawsuits out there.

 .

The sad thing is Shawn, as

The sad thing is Shawn, as much as the right might downplay the stories that paint them in a bad light, or illuminate their failures in policy, the left does just as good a job at it, only they have no qualms with silencing bad press at ANY cost (check out the lawyer the Clinton's knocked off or how any reporter to bring up Teddy's late night drive in his car boat gets the axe as soon as they mention the word 'manslaughter' 'murder' and 'Ted Kennedy' in the same conversation.) 

Some of these stories the left DOESN'T want you to hear are stories like the man known by his pet's name.  When he arrived at the vets office, presumably to get an MRI for his pet, who's name he had registered, the vet was indeed suprised when the man arrived upon calling the pet's name, and claimed he indeed was said pet.  His reason for something so strange?  He had been showing signs of cancer and yet, even as a high risk, needing an MRI ASAP, he was still 4 months back on the waiting list.  He claimed he'd rather pay cash at a veterinary hospital to get his MRI, rather than risk waiting 4 months for the cancer to spread.

 

These are hearbreaking stories, and again, many MANY Canadians actually cross into the US and pay *cash* for their healthcare because the Canadian system either provides poor service or they are yet another on an already absurdly long line awaiting a CHECKUP, let alone treatment.  It's hard to say where the solution lies, but Universal healthcare, in its current model, will only fail further.  I'm with Unsane and Candance, with scumbags like John Edwards and other trial lawyers who see tragedy as a paycheck, and prey upon the grief of victims of medical mishaps, in orderto make even more insane amounts of money, the current system will continue to fail as well. 

 

As I said before, if we made it easier for the hospital, and even the individual doctors being sued to return the suit after it is decided the initial claim is bogus, you would see an alarming drop in rates of malpractice cases for rediculous incidents.  I'm all for holding our medical professionals accountable, but a misplaced stitch, or a mild allergic reaction to medication is CERTAINLY not worth a multi-million suit.  Worst part is, most of these people are goaded by their *lawyers* to ask for more money.  This is why, for the most part, I can't stand litigation America.  There are good lawyers, but I feel the same way about them as I do about my local law enforcement.  The idea of their institution is sound and necessary, but the few bad apples are bad enough to spoil my view of the entire crop.

Loved that post, Binx. 

Loved that post, Binx.  Very-very articulate and on-point. 

So at this point, can all of us agree now that Canada has been ruled out as a "good" model for the United States to emulate?

-PJ

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07

Thank you Trach, I gotta

Thank you Trach, I gotta say, on this issue, I too am in 110% agreeance with you.  I also think there is a problem with healthcare in America today, however, that said, I still think we have the best model out there.  As you said before as well, American hospitals do NOT refuse services and care for patients in a life or death situation, I have even heard of countless stories from my aunt who has been a head nurse at their local hospital for decades now, and there are even cases where the patient is non-terminal, but needing care, and the doctors fudge the paper work to get the treatment for said patient.  Sure, after the fact, they are required to pay for the care, but compare the two nations for example, USA and Canada.

 

A man is diagnosed with serious signs of cancer, yet even in his high risk situation, especially with cancer where every day counts in finding the problem and treating it, he was placed on a 4+ month waiting list.  That is long enough to ensure a promise that he will likely be beyond help at that point.  However, in America, if someone is mortally wounded, or in extreme need of care, we take you in.  We charge you later, but we don't stand by the door and ask you to 'take a number.'

 

Much like Candance proposed, the solution does NOT lie in national healthcare.  If your leg is infected, you don't amputate your arm.  What I'm saying is, you should focus on the root of the problem.  The root being the way litigation America is today and how easy it is for Joe Schmo to get a multi-million dollar malpractice suit to rule in his favor over a simple medical oversight.  I believe such a person SHOULD be compensated.  However, a mild skin infection that is niether dangerous and is gone in a few days to a week is NO justification for a multi-million dollar case against the hospital.

No fairness, ever

 Yes some people are waiting a while for MRI's and there is doctor shortage in some rural areas. Overal if you look at the whole population, most are very happy with the Canadian system.  The need for the Romanow Report and the fact that it was the hot issue of the June 2004 and January 2006 federal elections suggests otherwise.  But then, Canadians look at their government as a Personal Pampering Agency.  And Canadians LOVE the fact that, on the world stage, their country is about as whiny and powerless as Sweden.

I have said before that I agree that we cannot afford universal healthcare right now.  I say that we can never afford it.  I am not so eager to slit the throat of the goose that lays the golden eggs as eagerly as you are.  I really don't need to see the economies of Houston and San Antonio (for starters) gutted by mass nationalization.  I also like living in a country that actually projects power, unlike Canada, which scarcely matters in the world (but props to their Parliament for keeping troops in Afghanistan until 2011).

This way the government does not have to pay for it, but at the same time it is fair to American citizens.  Why this constant obsession for what has never and cannot ever exist (fairness)? 

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

Unsane

That's another classic liberal argument: we'd all have universal healthcare if we weren't in Iraq.

Cause, you know, back in the glory days of the 90s our public schools were all fantastic, Medicare wasn't going bankrupt at all, and those levies in New Orleans were *so close* to getting fixed.

I'm with you, we'll never be able to afford it.

 

Cost of the war, so far, as a point of reference...

candance,

Don't wish it away.

http://www.nationalp...

It's costing us everyday...if we can afford the war, we can afford a socialized health insurance program to cover 300 million Americans.

Syrius

 

"...the dire consequences to society when people begin to believe that by
renaming someone to erase their humanity opens the door to the
devaluation of everyone's life..."-dscott

 

uh huh

And there it is.

Um. . .

Self-edit:  Due to confusion.  I'll just sit back and watch it play out.

For the Socialist Kleptocrat Syrius

So, because Syrius is too lazy to pay for his own doctor, or is too much of a nosy busybody worrying about how other people are paying for theirs, we HAVE to turn the United States from the world's largest and most advanced economy with the ability to project power globally into a whiny, pathetic Nanny State. 

I get it totally.  Just like a typical Leftist.

Sorry, Syrius.  I like living in a nation that is able to project power globally, one that is on the cutting edge of civilization and provides most of its major advancements.  I'd really rather not live in a whiny, Going Nowhere Nanny State as much as you do.

And, once again, for one who constantly cries about how his freedoms are being taken away, you sure have no qualms about usurping my freedom to evaluate and accept risk, and picking my pocket.

What else will you ask us to pay for?  Your groceries?  (You don't need a doctor every day but you need food every day.)  Your rent?  Your light bill?  Your car payment?   

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

Oh, good grief, Syrius!

"if we can afford the war, we can afford a socialized health insurance program..." Syrius

Sorry, I know I'm jumping in on the tail end of this discussion, but that comment caught my eye this AM.

Oh, good grief, Syrius, you sound like those who used to say "If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we (insert pet project here)?

Do you really think that if we weren't spending money on Iraq, that money would actually be getting used for health care?

Sure it would. Just like the gas taxes we've been paying all these years have actually gone to fixing roads and bridges. And just like Social Security money is being used to pay out SS benefits.

And the next time we had to do something militarily, we would go deeper in the hole again. But that would be OK with you.

So don't act like if we get out of Iraq it will all be fine. You don't really care about deficit spending, you don't really want us out of Iraq to use the money for health care. You just want your "socilialized health insurance program," period. Iraq money is just the lever you're using to argue for it. And if we go further into deficit AFTER we get that, (which of course we will, because we always do), you don't care about that.

At least argue from a standpoint of honesty, that you just want your "socilialized health insurance program." Don't try to rationalize it by claiming that if we just save the Iraq money, we could afford health care. That's a bogus argument.

 

 

Motherbelt

Exactly.

Syrius could CARE LESS about the military or the national debt. The ONLY thing he cares about is if he can be coddled and babied by the government for "free".

If the military were armed with pop guns and water pistols, the national debt were $100 trillion, but all doctors were "free" and paid for by the government, he'd be overwhelmingly happy.

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

Good morning MB - Plus all spending is not the same and libs

can't understand that. They have no economic sense at all. Military spending creates jobs and in the case of the Iraq war will decrease over time. Health care creates no jobs (and will actual lose jobs) and the spending will increase over time.

If they want to argue infrastructure spending that's another thing. Like military spending, it creates jobs and the expenses (as long as they aren't boondoggles like the big dig) are not on going.

The Iraq War is also like infrastructure spending because it's protecting our country from more attacks than would otherwise happen if Al Qaeda wasn't tied up in Iraq. If Al Qaeda takes control of Iraq, not only will they not have to spend time and money fighting there, they'll also have billions in oil revenue to fund their terror.

Shawn

I have said all along that Canada has good health system any Canadian that is on this site has mentioned how good it it is.

I have an Aunt living in Nova Scotia. She tells me all about how "great" Canadian healthcare is. She comes to the US for anything more than a regular check-up or emergency care.

I also had a buddy who married a girl from Canada. She told me the Canadian healthcare is hiddeous.

Please don't come here and try to tell us how great their healthcare system is. The people living there, and have gotten ill, they know better.

Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!

FS

I have lived two thirds of my life there. I think I have the right to judge for myself if it is good or not. Mandrake who is a popular Canadian member of this site is using it right now for a bad auto accident, he also says it is good.

If you disagree, that is no problem, I just hate it when there is a good debate going and you ruin it with your scoreboard. It was amusing for a while, but it is getting tired.

"
Now, if you can learn this, why do you refuse to learn economics?"

elaborate please

America's s/weetheart does gangsta rap

shawn... I'm not in this

shawn...

I'm not in this debate, just saw the post here when I clicked it on, anyway I hope Mandrake is okay, I like and respect him a lot, I enjoy posting with him, always have.

That's us Americans

you ruin it with your scoreboard

That's us Americans.

Ruining everything we come into contact with.

Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!

nice comeback free

Almost as good as the posters you call troll. And nobody enjoys ganging up on trolls more than you.

America's sweetheart does gangsta rap

Typical Liberal Ingratitude

And all this time you've been trying to get us conservatives to admit we're wrong about something . . . and you don't even appreciate it when I finally do.

Another great comeback

Sarcasm and no substance. Very cute.

America's sweetheart does gangsta rap

There's just no pleasing you Liberals, is there?

There's just no pleasing you Liberals, is there?

I've noted a marked increase in the beligerance of Liberals since Spitzer announced he would resign . . .

beligerance?

Curious what I have said that was beligerant. Your just a very uptight person. I have noticed nobody is quicker to sound off he troll alert than you. Nobody I have seen on this board, takes glee in teaming up on someone as much as you. It is almost like a bully mentality.

Hey if that is what gets your rocks of.....so be it.

America's sweetheart does gangsta rap

Uptight, quick, and I ruin

Uptight, quick, and I ruin everything I touch.

Sorry about Elliot Spitzer. I know you guys are stunned that he's in trouble, even though he didn't even tap his foot in a public restroom like a real criminal.

lol free

That is even weaker than your last comeback. How do even know what I think about Spitzer. I even said Good Riddance about Spitzer today.

Maybe the scoreboard thing is a cry out for attention. You want members to like you so much you change your positions like Jenna Jamesom during a double feature. You say conservatives should stick together and vote for whoever the nominee is then just because the popular kids in school disagreed you decided to not vote for McCain.

Yes my post did not have anything of substance either. Maybe you can try coming back with decent debate as opposed to smears.

 

 

America's sweetheart does gangsta rap

You both are way

You both are way off-topic. 

Shawn:  Maybe the scoreboard thing is a cry out for attention. You want members to like you so much you change your positions like Jenna Jamesom during a double feature.

What the hell Shawn?!??  Geez.

-PJ

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07

Sorry Trach

I got carried away. I apologize

Horrors! Free Stinker Changed his mind!

Thank you for proving my earlier point (here) that even if we change our minds, you Liberals are never pleased.

 

Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!

Free... As you are

Free...

As you are probably already aware.... I love the score board!

And yes, it's a very American trait to keep score. Hell, why shouldn't we, we almost always win! 

"Abstain from McCain"

CT

I'm sure you can guess the only group it's really not popular with ;-)

More Thoughts

A few more things to consider:

Thanks to the Baby Boomer retirement flood, America's elderly are becoming a disproportionate amount of our society which is already straining Social Security and other government services. According to the Boston Globe, our current government's entire budget will be needed just for the retired by 2050.

(Quick question I never seem to get answered by libs: Why do we have to pay for Social Security and build our own retirement accounts?)

Our government has doubled funding for public schools in the past 30 years (even adjusted for inflation) yet they remain a hopeless quagmire. Do you really want these people recruiting the best doctors?

America remains the world's leader in medical research and innovation precisely because of our current meritocracy.

Guess how Canada keeps their healthcare budget low? They force price caps onto American suppliers and give doctors formularies of what to prescribe. Guess who is paying the largest bill for these companies to make profits....

 

Just a little more food for thought.

Great points, candance

...and yet, the Socialists all desperately want to slit the throat of the goose that lays the golden eggs.  I think a few tweaks to the system (I will post those soon) are all that's needed. 

Ever notice that the Socialists will NEVER think to themselves that a way to deal with health care issues is to resort to civil society and start up private charities to deal with the issue?  To them, government is THE charity. 

Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.

Awesome.

U:  In fact, when I get spare time, I will offer my tweaks to the current U.S. health care system. 

:rubbing hands together:

Looking forward to it!  That's why I posted the thread to begin with.  I've heard the most discussion about everything else, but very little about what you're proposing.

U:  To them, government is THE charity. 

I used to actually believe that.  I really used to believe they had an endless supply of money, and I never asked where it came from. 

I used to believe "temporary" tax increases were just that as well.  I didn't even know govt. could vote money out of the general fund or for designated projects either.  Seemed like cheating.  That was when the blinders came off for me.

-PJ

"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07

Ideas

1) Tort reform.  yeah, I know, candance brought that up already...but she is 100% right and we are on the same wavelength.  Too many people go to the doctor not only expecting it to be FREE, but a trip to winning the lottery as well.  Of course, to those who file lawsuit after lawsuit, it's "free money".  They can't begin to imagine what this does to the insurance the doctors carry...and the premiums they pay, and the costs they (gasp!) pass on to the consumer. 

TX has made some very brave steps in the direction of tort reform, but I wouldn't hold my breath for anything too radical or effective.  Quick: name a legislative body on any level in the United States without a majority of lawyers.

2) I have read someplace that when one pays for a new car/truck, one-third or so of the cost goes to health care.  Tort reform will go a long way towards fixing that, but so will this: instead of the unions making political contributions, often to candidates their members are at odds with, why don't they do THIS with their dues money:

Collect their dues, then walk up to industry and say "Let's go 50-50 on health care and drag costs downwards (example).  Let's team up to find some low-