Okay folks, this is an issue that's been bothering me for a while, mostly because my right-leaning brain instantly shuts off as soon as someone mentions math. But if some folks here have some extra time and would like to explain this to me in layman's terms I would be eternally grateful.
I know that our national debt is somewhere in the trillions, and a big chunk of that is being borrowed from other countries. So what does this mean for us? Are we really beholden to China like some say? Or are the Chinese more beholden to us because of the trade imbalance? What other things are causing this debt and where is all the money coming from exactly?
And how big a problem is this in reality?














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Okay Folks
July 20, 2008 - 23:52 ET by candance*props up feet, grabs popcorn, and puts on some music*
Dazzle me.
candance
July 21, 2008 - 00:04 ET by Cool ArrowI don't have the link to sarc's Credit insurance graph with me, but that 45 Trillion exposure market that did not exist in 2001 scares the heck out of me.
Twice the size Wall Street and nobody pays attention.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Okay Cool
July 21, 2008 - 00:09 ET by candanceSo I can put you in the camp of "national debt is a real problem"? Just wanting to make sure I understand.
What's all this about credit insurance?
Deep KimShee
July 21, 2008 - 00:23 ET by Cool ArrowOr however you spell it.
Here's the graph comparing the markets.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
*frowns and scratches forehead*
July 21, 2008 - 00:31 ET by candanceSo is this like a deal where the government reimburses creditors for charge offs?
Partially
July 21, 2008 - 00:35 ET by Cool ArrowI think it's a double whammy.
If a big enough institution goes down (Fannie or Freddie) the Credit Swap market gets shaky too.
I have no clue how this is all underwritten.
And 99% of Americans don't even know it exists.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
""I have no clue how this
July 21, 2008 - 00:40 ET by RESTLESS 1""I have no clue how this is all underwritten."
The scary part is, I'm not sure the Credit Swap market IS underwritten. If it goes, we all may go with it. :(
"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
how so?
July 21, 2008 - 01:38 ET by candanceHow would we all go with it?
Candance
July 21, 2008 - 19:09 ET by RESTLESS 1Here's some more info. on CDS's. The second largest company insures around 360 billion dollars worth of bonds, about 2/3's of which are municipal bonds. I just can't imagine it would be good if this were to collapse.
If you're not in it, it may not be so bad, but not enough is known about these to assume who is and is not invovled.
"This
liberal would be all about socialize -- uh, uh, would be about
basically taking over and the government running all of your companies."-Maxine Waters 2008
Our creditors
July 21, 2008 - 00:41 ET by Cool ArrowBut what happens when the Chinese, Russians, and Saudi's find out the junk bonds they hold on us are worthless?
This ain't no "get a second job" chump change.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Happy to supply it, but...
July 25, 2008 - 06:40 ET by sarcasmoThe graph is from mid Feb. of this year, and later stories say this market, which magically went from unknown to indispensible, is actually $60 TRILLION instead of "just" $45.5 TRILLION like the graph said. But what's a $14.5 TRILLION among friends? So far, nobody has a noncriminal explanation that makes sense to me, and I see absolutely nothing about this coming problem from the TV media.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
really Sarc
July 25, 2008 - 11:26 ET by candanceI was hoping you'd get involved in this. :)
I still don't quite understand what this graph is all about.
I can't think of a noncriminal explanation, myself.
July 25, 2008 - 11:30 ET by sarcasmoAnd at this point I need to admit my ability to comment further is currently legally curtailed, but others are better authorities on this wonderful new market than I could ever be. I just fear another coming bailout's effects...
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
understood Sarc
July 25, 2008 - 11:51 ET by candanceI know some stuff too that I'm not allowed to talk about.
Check it out candance
July 21, 2008 - 01:15 ET by Cool ArrowJohn Q Consumer is rocking along with 2-3 credit cards and is paying 8% on each.
Five more CC companies decide to offer JQ their own cards.
Soon JQ has 10 cards. He now is paying 0% because he transferred all the old balances into 0% for 6 months cards.
Let's say he charges up to $2000. Then he misses a payment on one card.
All cards are now subject to 30% interest because he missed a payment on one card.
VISA and Mastercard (through whom most cards are issued) now shows receivables on $2000 @ 30% not because they made good loans, but because they mad bad ones.
Now consider how many people are kiting a cumulative string of cards at $25,000.
Eventually these go into collection at 60 cents on the dollar, but until then, a lot of bad debt is carried by the big lenders as good debt.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
What is "National
July 21, 2008 - 01:21 ET by MrShyWhat is "National Debt"?
All I know is music, graphic design, basketball, and that President George W. Bush is a man among boys.
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
National debt
July 21, 2008 - 01:27 ET by Cool ArrowI think it's what the Government owes its lenders, both domestic and foreign.
I think the "foreign" part is a lot bigger now.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Foreign ownership
July 25, 2008 - 05:43 ET by UnsaneIf the foreign part is greater than 33%, I will be shocked. For one, that will tell me there isn't more debt around the world needing to be financed, which will be very hard for me to swallow knowing the state of other countries finances.
Whoever casts a vote for Barack Obama is nothing more than a common thief. Whoever fails to vote against him is nothing more than a moral coward.
well Mr Shy
July 21, 2008 - 01:35 ET by candanceMy understanding of national debt is that it's just like any other debt - the goverment spends more money that what it brings in.
It either prints itself extra money (more dollars exist for the same amount of goods - inflation) or it borrows from a friend.
The problem behind this, in theory, is that the government could get to the point where so much money is owed, just to make the payments would take their entire budget - forcing the federal government into bankruptcy.
I'm trying to determine how far we are away from that.
interesting Cool
July 21, 2008 - 01:43 ET by candanceSo you're saying the credit industry has some decieving numbers?
No doubt
July 21, 2008 - 01:51 ET by Cool ArrowIf you're like me, you get at least 2 phone offers per week and 1 mailer. Why would VISA want me to have 5 different cards at different rates? I'm the same worthless credit risk for one as I am for five.
And they ain't gonna talk to you about your spouse's cards either. Won't give you any info even though you're committed for the whole enchilada and you don't know how much.
But after a few months of no payments, danged if they ain't ready to talk to whoever will listen.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
LOL Cool
July 21, 2008 - 02:01 ET by candanceI hear ya.
I thought the FDIC was created to prevent another collapse like we had in 1929...but it seems that instead of being a solution you're moving the burden from one place to another.
Well, cd
July 21, 2008 - 02:11 ET by Cool ArrowOnce upon a time FDIC coverage of $100,000 was as much as most people needed. That was post WWII, I think.
Once upon a time Social Security was a sucker's bet too since life expectancy was 59 and retirement was 65. But this broken healthcare system went and worked a little too well for the Social Security system.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
cool and candance
July 21, 2008 - 01:28 ET by shawn228I am so glad there are conservatives on this site that see this as a huge problem and don't just blow this off as a liberal talking point.
The national debt is close to 9 trillion dollars. Per capita that is over $25,000 for every man, woman and child in the United States
I don't know the exact figure, but every tax dollar that is taken in, 18 cents goes toward paying for the interest on the national debt alone
Even though I do not agree with pulling out of Iraq, the war is not helping either. Some say it is not a big deal because it is only costing us a small percentage of our GDP, but the projected 3 trillion dollars after all is said and done in Iraq and Afghanistan is 1/3 our national debt.
I believe in conservative principals and like tax breaks as much as anybody, but i'm not sure tax cuts are a good idea in a time of war.
Some folks can dish it out but cannot take it
I disagree
July 21, 2008 - 01:41 ET by candanceTax cuts have been proven to increase government revenue. It's the same principle as a store putting something on sale - people see a good deal and start buying it, thus causing the store to make more money in the end.
So 18 cents on every dollar is spent on the debt - the debt is 18% of our budget right now?
candance
July 21, 2008 - 01:52 ET by shawn228I hate paying taxes as much as anybody, but the money has to come from somewhere.
Sure tax cuts might spur the economy, but will it spur it enough to pay for social security, fixing our roads, paying salaries to our elected officials, paying salaries of our armed forces, policemen, homeland security and 2 wars?
I don't mind paying more in taxes now, then to be paying through the nose later on.
btw
I meant 18 cents of every dollar of tax revenue
Some folks can dish it out but cannot take it
I understand what you're saying
July 21, 2008 - 01:58 ET by candanceI also don't begrudge paying my fair share of taxes - we can't pay our soldiers/police with the pride of a job well done and expect that to feed their families. So yes, taxes are necessary.
However I find it quite dinsingenuous of libs to complain that the the war is wasting money, but they never complain about government money used on such things as studying wildlife or running NPR. Of all the places where we need to cut back, why is the war always mentioned first?
Also, the national debt has been in the news at least since the mid 90s, back when we weren't in Iraq. It's simply unfair to point to one unpopular thing as the scapegoat.
So the debt payments are 18% of our income?
And no I wasn't talking about spurring the economy, I was talking about tax cuts actually increasing the revenue the government brings in over the long run.
candance
July 21, 2008 - 11:04 ET by shawn228Just to be clear, I do not feel money spent on the war is wasted. I am
just saying that is draining alot of our resources right now. I never
implied or said I wanted to cut back on funding for the war.
Also I do not believe we should be paying to study wildlife either.
I also believe it is a waste of money for the war on drugs, enforcing
prostitution laws, sex education and abstinence only programs.
"So the debt payments are 18% of our income?"
No candance, 18 cents on every TAX dollar of revenue.
Some folks can dish it out but cannot take it
that's what I meant
July 21, 2008 - 16:26 ET by candanceLoan payments are 18% of the government's income. That's what I intended to say.
Can you find a link for that by chance?
Hi Candance
July 21, 2008 - 16:55 ET by shawn228Here is one that is similar the numbers I was talking about. Instead of giving you link, I will just do a cut and paste. It is a over a year old and the National debt has increased by over a trllion since then. Wow one trillion in a little over year, boggles the mind doesn't it?
How Does the National
Debt Affect Me?
See also:
The Truth about the National Debt
These past two years, the
daily headlines and the TV news have been filled with reports
of the Herculean struggles between the Congress and President
George W. Bush over the Federal budgets for FY-2005 through FY-2007. This to-the-mat confrontation
has even threatened the unthinkable curtailment of "non-essential"
Federal services.
Only the financial sleight-of-hand of US Treasury
Secretary John W. Snow in disinvesting from Federal civil service
retirement funds and withholding receipts and interest payable
on Treasury securities held by these trust funds has forestalled
the international debacle of defaulting on maturing Federal debts.
This bitter contest over the Federal budget is triggered by deepening
concern over unprecedented deficits propelling the out-of-control growth of our astronomical national
debt.
While the enormity of the national debt has been
a popular whipping boy for as long as any of us can remember,
can the owner/manager of the emerging business do much about this
problem? How does the national debt really affect the owner/ manager
of the emerging business? Isn't it much like worrying about the
hole in the ozone layer — obviously immensely important, but
a very remote phenomena from my day-to-day concerns?
To understand how the national debt does affect the
owner/manager of the emerging business, let's look at the numbers.
The national debt has now passed $7.50 trillion. Thus,the ceiling imposed on the national debt by the Congress
has just had to be raised to $8.18 trillion. Because of the Treasury's financial legerdemain,
the real number is slightly above this ceiling. Per capita, this
is more than $25,300 for every man, woman and child in the United
States. Federal taxes in excess of $1,140 per year must be collected
for every man, woman and child in the United States simply to
pay the interest due on the national debt. Our annual appropriations
for virtually all other Federal activities pale in contrast with
the line item for Federal debt service.
Since October 1, 2003, the outstanding public debt
has been increasing an average of $1.60 billion every day! This
increase is almost $18,500 per second. Since 1992, the national debt has doubled! These numbers are mind boggling.
So, how does this affect the owner/manager of the
emerging business? In many ways!
First, approximately 17 cents out of every dollar
of total tax revenue collected is immediately used merely to pay
the burgeoning interest on the Federal debt. This is now surpassing
the costs for our entire defense establishment, and it is exceeded
only by the revenues needed to fund the total Medicare and Medicaid
programs. (Ostensibly, Social Security is funded independently.)
We are held hostage by this horrendous debt; 17 cents is the ransom
to be paid out of every dollar we must cough up in taxes.
Thus, absolutely no governmental services or benefits
are delivered in return for 17 percent of our total Federal tax
bill. These are substantial funds that could most prudently be
re-invested in the growth of our own business, but must be shoveled
out instead simply to service the interest on the Federal debt.
These substantial funds are diverted by Government fiat from potentially
constructive economic investments in one's own enterprise into
barren interest payments to the world of strangers who hold these
obligations of the Treasury of the United States.
And secondly, the spending power of our present and
potential customers would be increased dramatically if this sterile
17 percent of our total tax bill that is immediately swallowed
by interest payments could only be freed for the purchase of goods
and services. [Approximately half of all individual income taxes
are required to pay the interest on the Federal debt.] While some
of the recipients of these interest payments may recycle these
funds into the purchase of domestic goods and services from emerging
businesses, much of the Federal debt is held by foreigners. A
substantial portion of the income of the average family of four
is being devoured to pay the interest on this "family debt"
equivalent to over $100,000. Thus, the Federal debt is a heavy drag
on the economy, impeding job creation and entrepreneurial expansion
as well as consumer spending on goods and services.
How does the national debt affect the owner/manager
of the emerging business? It drains substantial funds out of the
business that could otherwise be invested in job creation and
entrepreneurial expansion. And it drains substantial funds out
of consumers' pockets that could otherwise be available for the
acquisition of goods and services. While it may not be observable,
the national debt casts an oppressive pall upon the whole
economy. And this burden inevitably impedes the growth and prosperity
of the emerging business.
Some folks can dish it out but cannot take it
Ah ha
July 21, 2008 - 17:01 ET by candanceHere is the money quote:
Federal taxes in excess of $1,140 per year must be collected
for every man, woman and child in the United States simply to
pay the interest due on the national debt.
This is the number to watch, as this will ultimately be the deciding factor. When the amount they need is more than the amount they are getting they will have to start taxing us more or start defaulting on the loans.
Can we find any more current data?
I was wrong candance
July 21, 2008 - 17:17 ET by shawn228I thought the national debt was 9 trillion dollars, It is actually 9.5 trillion dollars. Here is the most current data.
"This is the number to watch, as this will ultimately be the deciding
factor. When the amount they need is more than the amount they are
getting they will have to start taxing us more or start defaulting on
the loans."
Sorry Candance, I'm not sure what argument here is. Isn't this the point i'm trying to make? If they are not collecting enough now, they will have to tax us more for it later right?
Why not start paying more now, so we our children don't have to pay for it later?
Some folks can dish it out but cannot take it
Shawn
July 21, 2008 - 17:32 ET by candanceThere is a fundamental problem at work here which is driving this issue in circles.
If our government made better use of its money in the first place, there would have been no deficit. But Congress is notorious for "borrowing" from essential services to fund pet projects. Then as the budget grows even more out of control, they turn to us with open palms to come up with the difference.
It's akin to a woman blowing the household budget on shoes then demanding her husband get a second job to pay the rent.
Even when our government does raise our taxes with a promise to fix a certain problem, they end up "borrowing" from that pot for the next shiny thing that comes along. So you can't guarantee that raising taxes would actually lower the deficit.
So it seems the only way to stop it is to put Congress on a diet and divert more of the existing money to paying down the loans.
Candance
July 21, 2008 - 17:37 ET by shawn228I do see your point, Congress when it was in Republican hands was very irresponsible and ditto with Democatic congress. They need manage the money better.
The bottom line is, even if every cent of whatever is suppossed to paid toward our national debt is accounted for, it is not enough. There is only enough money to pay the interest on the debt.
Some folks can dish it out but cannot take it
A gift from Unsane
July 26, 2008 - 04:43 ET by UnsaneHere, Shawn. Enjoy!
Whoever casts a vote for Barack Obama is nothing more than a common thief. Whoever fails to vote against him is nothing more than a moral coward.
Awww Unsane
July 26, 2008 - 10:11 ET by shawn228You are such a thoughtful person. Now I can't let you be nice without giving you a gift of my own can I?
Some folks can dish it out but cannot take it
Shawn
July 21, 2008 - 01:58 ET by Cool ArrowTax cuts encourage investment and therefore makes money move around faster.
Raising taxes is the same as cutting jobs. Are you sure you're not hoping they'll stop just short of your job?
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Rather than edit
July 21, 2008 - 02:01 ET by Cool ArrowRaising Taxes isn't the same as cutting jobs, but it does cut a necessary number of jobs to cover the cost.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
CA
July 21, 2008 - 11:12 ET by shawn228We have had very low taxes for a while. We had both a great economy about 3 yrs ago, and a not so good economy now.
Between The Presidents tax cuts in 2000 and now, we put on almost 3 trillion in debt. That kind of boggles the mind on how fast the national debt went up the past 8 yrs.
So, obviously the current system of tax cuts is not working. With the exception of Universal Health Care "which I do not want to talk about now" I do not believe in a nanny state, but I don't mind paying more taxes now, so our country can be in better shape for the future.
Some folks can dish it out but cannot take it
→ Shawn
July 21, 2008 - 17:19 ET by Cool ArrowI'm payng too much in taxes, and I'm pretty much lower middle class.
What's your secret?
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
There is no secret CA
July 21, 2008 - 17:23 ET by shawn228I pay a lot in taxes as well. If the taxes go toward deadbeats, welfare or mortgage bailouts, I would be outraged.
I am just saying, I don't mind paying higher taxes if it goes toward paying down out debt.
Some folks can dish it out but cannot take it
If the government is in debt
July 21, 2008 - 17:28 ET by FoolicanIf the government is in debt and takes taxpayer money to pay it off, isn't that the same as burglarizing your spouse to commit insurance fraud?
→ Foolican
July 21, 2008 - 17:35 ET by Cool ArrowOr is it more like getting your spouse fired so you can control all the money.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Foolican
July 21, 2008 - 17:46 ET by shawn228We live in the United States of America and sometimes we are forced to pay things we don't want to.
Half of this country does not think going to war was a mistake, a little less than half think we should pull out from Iraq. Those people all pay taxes to finance a war they do not support. The logic behind that is that the POTUS and his cabinet think it is for the good of the country.
Well, I believe that paying down the debt is good for our country as well. What happens when even a person that is considered the richest, strongest, most attractive, innovative person, charges money on his/her credit card and only pays interest on it?
That person goes into debt, and no matter the persons reputation, they have to pay on the principle and not just the interest eventually right?
There is more to defending America physically, we have to defend it financially as well
Some folks can dish it out but cannot take it
The real problem
July 26, 2008 - 04:47 ET by UnsaneThe problem is that you want to raise taxes for virtually any reason. It isn't that the federal government isn't getting the revenue. It is that they are spending too much money on total needless crap.
I love music, but we don't need the federal government to fund things like this when private donors and charities are available. For one example, I'm in a classical mood tonight, I guess.
Whoever casts a vote for Barack Obama is nothing more than a common thief. Whoever fails to vote against him is nothing more than a moral coward.
Unsane
July 26, 2008 - 10:46 ET by shawn228I told cool, I told candance, now I tell you. I hate paying taxes. I have only a few years on my current mortgage and it will be paid off. However I have about 25 yrs left on a rental property I bought 5 yrs ago, which I have seen drop about 25 thousand in value.
It makes me sick to my stomach that I am paying my mortgage on time, while congress and the President are going to pass a bill bailing out banks and people that can't pay for their mortgage
I agree with you, the government needs to do a better job, but we need to do something to pay this debt our country has right now, or we will never get out of this hole.
I have always said I love conservative values on spending and taking responsibity for your own actions, but I hate the nanny state attitude when it comes to social issues. Prosititution and marijuana will always be around, and we are spending billions enforcing and jailing people. What I would do is legalize both and tax the hell out of it and use that money for rehabilitation progams and any access can go toward paying down our debt.
Real life video games are cool
Not one PEEP?
July 27, 2008 - 01:00 ET by Unsane...and not one single PEEP about why you, as a taxpayer who lives in A City By A Body Of Water, is paying for this. (In my opinion, you shouldn't be paying for it unless you at least live within the same county!!!) You are extremely horrified, it seems, at the government daring to pay for law enforcement, but you have zero problems paying for crap that we citizens can really manage to pay for all on our own.
Do you mind responding to that, or are you okay with the federal government burning money that could otherwise go to paying down the debt on things like this?
You already know how I feel about your desire to turn the United States into a Going Nowhere Nanny State like the Netherlands...
Whoever casts a vote for Barack Obama is nothing more than a common thief. Whoever fails to vote against him is nothing more than a moral coward.
→ Shawn
July 21, 2008 - 17:33 ET by Cool ArrowIf the taxes go toward deadbeats, welfare or mortgage bailouts, I would be outraged.
Then be prepared for outrage. Simple as that.
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
Thank You Cool!!!
July 21, 2008 - 17:40 ET by candanceYou hit the nail on the head.
Cool
July 21, 2008 - 17:49 ET by shawn228Just like I said to candance above. I agree with you. The government is doing a lousy job with our money and it needs to be managed better.
Some folks can dish it out but cannot take it
→ Shawn
July 21, 2008 - 17:57 ET by Cool ArrowYou're so close to thinking conservative it's positively uplifting.
That last step is as simple as committing to memory the following:
LYDSEXICS UNTIE
shawn
July 26, 2008 - 04:22 ET by MrShy"it needs to be managed better."
Less OF IT should be managed, then the managing will be easier.
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
Laffer Curve
July 27, 2008 - 01:02 ET by UnsaneEver heard of the Laffer Curve?
Check it out sometime.
Anyways, you are suffering from a typical problem that most Leftists have: not differentiating between what your local government does and what the federal government does. The federal government doesn't pay for your local cops. Nor do they pay for all road maintenance.
And note that you point out a lot of programs and ongoing expenses and they are all well and good...but why cant we privatize Social Security? And why is the federal government paying for things like this? (I'm a fan and all and have donated to them, but why should the federal government pay for this?) For one little example...
Whoever casts a vote for Barack Obama is nothing more than a common thief. Whoever fails to vote against him is nothing more than a moral coward.
For candance
July 25, 2008 - 05:53 ET by Unsanecandance - The whine that "WAAAHHHH!!! Our debt is owned by China!!!!!!!" is crap. One, someone should explain how a nation whose GDP is in the BILLIONS can own a debt in the TRILLIONS.
Two, it is a cyclical thing. Twenty years ago, people were crying that Japan owned our debt, we were beholden to Tokyo, and that the Japanese would take over the world. Today, people are crying that China, with a rapidly growing but still vastly smaller economy, owns our debt, and that we are beholden to Beijing, and that the Chinese will take over the world. Who will the the populist boogeyman in 2028? I have a guess...after reading an article in Foreign Policy on Chinese and Indian development, people will be crying about how India owns our debt,that we are beholden to New Delhi, and how the Indians will take over the world...
Three, all the numbers I have seen indicate that the debt is one-third foreign owned. I would bet that the biggest holders are in Europe and Japan out of foreign owners. And they won't own it all because the United States is simply not the only game in town. And even in the United States, not even the federal debt has a monopoly on the bond market.
Can you name the country with the worst debt load as a percentage of its GDP?
I for one want to see the debt paid down because I see 15% of the federal budget going elsewhere at that point. Not to mention I believe in forcing the government to live within its means.
Whoever casts a vote for Barack Obama is nothing more than a common thief. Whoever fails to vote against him is nothing more than a moral coward.
hey unsane
July 25, 2008 - 11:24 ET by candanceThanks for taking the time to respond. I wasn't aware about the Japan thing back in the old days. As for how our debt can be that high, I found this interesting site.
Apparently the national debt is really broken down into two categories: public debt such as bonds and treasury notes, and actual government debt such as Social Security.
My pleasure, candance
July 26, 2008 - 03:56 ET by UnsaneOne more thing to consider: according to Foreign Policy (May/June edition), Japan has the world's largest debt in relation to its GDP. Japan has a debt that is 194% of its GDP. By using ballpark figures, the U.S. debt is nowhere near that level. (But no one is panicking about Japan, and they are starting to have fewer taxpayers to cover the debt as its population declines.)
Whoever casts a vote for Barack Obama is nothing more than a common thief. Whoever fails to vote against him is nothing more than a moral coward.
Oh, we're back to GDP and
July 26, 2008 - 04:31 ET by MrShyOh, we're back to GDP and national debt talk.... We need a forum for economic nerds the likes of Unsane and Candance.
I kid.
:)
EDIT: Oops, this thread is ABOUT the national debt. "Dope!"
* * * SOCKS THE CAT '08 * * *
For REAL Change
The truly sad thing
July 26, 2008 - 04:50 ET by UnsaneYou know what the sad thing is? I have no economics background other than 3 hours of macroeconomics and 3 hours of microeconomics. I didn't even take it for support work for my degree!
:-)
Whoever casts a vote for Barack Obama is nothing more than a common thief. Whoever fails to vote against him is nothing more than a moral coward.