As it seems to be a little slow news-wise today, I was browsing through WorldNetDaily earlier and ran upon a very interesting article which describes the assertion of N. T. Wright, an Anglican Bishop, who has written a book entitled Surprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church, that suggests when Christians die, they do not ascend immediately to Heaven, as that ascension will only take place when Christ actually returns.
This concept is nothing new to me, as I was exposed to this from a very early age. I am, however, interested it what many of you might think of this, as I consider most NBers to be of above average intelligence, and that includes some of our trolls, when compared to the trolls one encounters on other conservative-oriented blogs.
For those of you currently sharpening your keyboards in preparation for coming in here and "burning the heretic at the stake," understand that I am taking no position here one way or the other. However, for those of you who find this concept an affront to your beliefs (and I know more than a few Christians who feel this way), I would be interested in your explaining why it is that, if Christians go straight to Heaven upon their death, as many are taught and/or believe, why will it be necessary for "the dead in Christ will rise first" upon his return?
I have had many interesting discussions on this subject with many of my Christian, as well as non-Christian, friends over the years. Honestly, some of the more interesting opinions came from the non-believers in that group. Among my Christian friends, there was some very real and surprising disagreement on this.
I am very interested in hearing what some of you think about this.
And no, I am not trying to touch off a "Holy War" here, so please keep it civil





















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there is no way to know for
February 11, 2008 - 19:25 ET by TruthMongerthere is no way to know for sure - so I don't worry about it - but that's just me
I would guess that Jesus probably prefers we help and serve people in dire need first instead of obsessing too much about this
but again that's just me
TM,
February 12, 2008 - 00:01 ET by R D HelmWell, one might very well consider this an obsession, but I consider it more of an intellectual exercise.
After all, God granted us all the gift of reason, did he not?
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. -J.W. von Goethe
just as long as we don't
February 12, 2008 - 11:57 ET by TruthMongerjust as long as we don't reason too much while rome burns
Do you guys even read the bible?
February 12, 2008 - 00:15 ET by Daniel BakerI do and it is clear
Daniel,
February 12, 2008 - 03:34 ET by R D HelmWhat may be clear to you may not be quite so transparent to others. Just perhaps, for the benefit of those who may have a little murkier view of all this, you might care to expand on "it is clear."
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. -J.W. von Goethe
I read the Bible everyday
February 12, 2008 - 12:06 ET by TruthMongerI read the Bible everyday and get through the whole thing every other year or so
we have a reading every morning at breakfast
my wife and I have couple studies 3 or 4 evenings a week
also have group and individual Bible studies with clergy throughout the month
also constantly reference bible.com, etc and post passages here a lot
also get a good look at the Koran and other holy books as often as I can
faith-based films and music provide a great way for me to unwind
and frequent prayer throughout the day rounds it all out
devotions at bed time
it's quite clear to me too and gets better all the time:)
And a truly odd claim at
February 12, 2008 - 14:56 ET by tracheostomyAnd a truly odd claim at that. Because he not only fails to mentally retain entire portions of the same scripture he claims to read all the time, he goes on to say things like. . .
TM: there is no way to know for sure - so I don't worry about it - but that's just me
. . .which completely betrays his true convictions, because he proceeds to abandon scripture for the shelter of. . ..
TM: I would guess that Jesus probably prefers we help and serve people in dire need first instead of obsessing too much about this.
. . .speculation, guessing, and apathy.
Typical.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
museum peace
February 12, 2008 - 15:51 ET by TruthMonger...our beloved "trach" Christian knows absolutely everything - just like all young Christians do at this point in their journey
no need for faith or humility - just yet
prone to jealousy - the trach Christian finds the wisdom of older, enormously studied, and wiser Christians like TM absolutely infuriating - and very stubbornly attempts to "fly" likewise before he has even mastered his own "crawling" and "walking" discernments...
also during this phase he frequenly speaks directly for Jesus
and really loves the sound of his typing
and now on to our next exhibit - the "nazi" Christian...
TM: ...our beloved
February 12, 2008 - 16:16 ET by tracheostomyTM: ...our beloved "trach" Christian knows absolutely everything - just like all young Christians do at this point in their journey
Oops. Failed to read the entire thread. Failed to quote me to the contrary. Wow, how deceptive is this?
TM: no need for faith or humility - just yet
This is an appeal to "blind faith." See above for the humility accusation.
TM: prone to jealousy
I'm just jealous of your blind faith and appeals to ignorance?
TM: the trach Christian finds the wisdom of older, enormously studied, and wiser Christians like TM absolutely infuriating - and very stubbornly attempts to "fly" likewise before he has even mastered his own "crawling" and "walking" discernments...
This is an appeal to age without context. Wisdom and experience must appeal to something more substantial. Every single one of my teachers is at least twice my age (I'm 34), and every single one of them is willing to share the specifics of their age, experience, and retention of scripture. If they can't remember it offhand, they point the way.
TM: also during this phase he frequenly speaks directly for Jesus
As TM further accuses, but continually fails to demonstrate.
TM: and really loves the sound of his typing
One of the few things I'm really good at. But it's difficult to stretch across the entire spectrum of knowledge, isn't it? What therefore do you have to accuse?
TM: and now on to our next exhibit - the "nazi" Christian...
Hijacking. TM fails to prove his point here, and so he resorts to a "thread-herring" argument. Let's keep it on the relevant thread please. Mastersofdeceit already owns that one anyway, and comprehensively so to boot.
If you're so old and experienced, why to you resort to the most juvenile tactics?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
TM,
February 12, 2008 - 16:31 ET by tracheostomyAdditionally, you stated there was no way to know for sure and then you resorted to guessing. If that's all you have to contribute to the discussion, then you're done here, right?
Oh, but wait. You want to turn it into a personal argument after I call you out on your appeal to ignorance?
RD should judge between us. Is it truly out of bounds to disparage an overt appeal to ignorance?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
liten up bro - its only a forum:)
February 12, 2008 - 16:36 ET by TruthMongerbut it looks like I really hit the mark - always a pleasure
you love to proclaim me done alot I know
but that's my decision as usual
love it
you let RD judge for your faith
and I'll still take Jesus for mine
That's not an answer. I
February 12, 2008 - 16:46 ET by tracheostomyThat's not an answer. I threw it in your lap and then you accuse me of "proclaiming you done." I never did that. It's both a valid and sincere question and should be treated like one. Ducking only makes you look evasive and cowardly. I'd encourage you to behave otherwise.
And you still haven't clarified or revoked your appeal to ignorance. What else am I to think? How is it not an appeal to ignorance?
And if you stand by your statements, why are you still here?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
when you want answers, God is ready
February 12, 2008 - 17:23 ET by TruthMongerif you don't get my post just yet - it doesn't need clarification from me - it needs prayer and reflection from you - and you will get your answer(s)
and I'm still here because - I like it here:)
Tm I'd just quit and let his arrogance speak for itself...
February 12, 2008 - 18:15 ET by BinxlyTM, seriously, dont waste your time with him. he relishes in being correct (or rather believing it in contrast to evidence) and because of such, it actually detracts from the waves it makes when he IS correct. (yes Trach, I do believe you do have the majority of your head on your shoulders, the small percentage though I think doesn't smell very nice...)
From experience of dealing with him, debate is hardly possible without crass, arrogant responses, personal attacks, and will never conceed a point unless it is painfully evident to even himself that he is wrong or mislead.
One thing is for sure, humility is still yet to be gained in his journey in *life* let alone in religion. And again, with such a grey area where definable proof is absent, it allows too much potential for 'what if...' for Trach to ever conceed to any point but his own. Like I said, he needs it spelled out painfully before he'll even admit the *potential* to not have it 110% correct.
Like I said TM, your ideas and debate is much better spent on others with open ears instead of open mouths.
nice to see you again binx!
February 12, 2008 - 18:48 ET by TruthMongernice to see you again binx! wow - kind words
it's not easy - but I always have time to save souls
Binx, I actually let this
February 13, 2008 - 04:29 ET by tracheostomyBinx, I actually let this thread go quite some time ago. See my times in other threads? I've only been in and out lurking the whole time between then.
I let TM have the last word on this one. Why? See below!
I love it when the opposition falls on their own sword. He's fulfilling my every wish just fine without me, and he won't need that sweaty sheep suit anymore from here on out. . .that's for sure. =)
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
TM: there is no way to know
February 12, 2008 - 16:56 ET by tracheostomyTM: there is no way to know for sure - so I don't worry about it - but that's just me
TM: I would guess that Jesus probably prefers we help and serve people in dire need first instead of obsessing too much about this.
TM: it's quite clear to me too and gets better all the time:)
Pray tell us, oh most ancient oracles of most ancient wisdom, what is so clear to you that none of the rest of us mere youngsters do not see?
TM's God: IGNORANCE IS BLISS!!! AAA-MEEEENNN!!!
Wow, thanks! Whatever was I thinking reading this Bible to begin with? Why do we even bother to read it at all? Now I understand why TM said this wasn't even worth bringing up to begin with! I'm so enlightened now. Thanks Truthie! You're a credit to the relativistic emergent church movement, nay one of their finest theologians!
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
i just might frame this one
February 12, 2008 - 17:27 ET by TruthMongeri just might frame this one for my office:)
rd
February 11, 2008 - 22:21 ET byabsent from the body present with the Lord
God is present in a way that transcends our time function, you are looking for corners on a circle!
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
btog,
February 12, 2008 - 00:06 ET by R D Helmabsent from the body present with the Lord
I agree completely, but in what form?
Will we be asleep, semi-aware, or will we have our full-blown heavenly bodies that we were promised to receive at some point?
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. -J.W. von Goethe
R H Delm
February 12, 2008 - 00:12 ET bysee PJs post below for some expansion. Just understand that the Biblical writtings were framed in a way to speak to people unfamiliar with reletivity theory.
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
btog,
February 12, 2008 - 00:14 ET by R D HelmI know, which is what makes it all somewhat challenging. :-)
And thanks.
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. -J.W. von Goethe
This one's on hold with
February 11, 2008 - 23:01 ET by tracheostomyThis one's on hold with me. I'm not settled on it.
:suddenly a hush fell throughout the church of NB:
Yes, I'm saying I don't have 100% all the answers.
I had a huge response written up on the intermediate_state, but I realized I couldn't deal with the martyrs under the altar in Revelation. That is one verse against so many others though. So soul sleep cannot be considered either. Edit: In fact, it is completely ruled out, since they're fully awake in the state of death and crying out to the Lord.
I'll have to chew on this further.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Trying to puzzle it together. . .
February 11, 2008 - 23:31 ET by tracheostomyI'm way better at soteriology. This is eschatology (the one I'm actually the worst at).
My working theory:
1. Every Christian dies at one time or another on earth during the temporal timeline of history, either through natural causes, natural disaster, tragedy, disease, martyrdom, or what have you.
2. All Christians show up in Eternity at the exact same time, since Eternity is outside of time.
3. They wait for an unspecified time in the intermediate_state. The martyrs under the altar cry out, they're given robes, and then move from the altar to the foot of the throne in Rev 7:15.
4. Then Christ descends with a shout and the trumpet. Coming with Him are the souls of all those who have died in Christ (1 Thess 4:14), including the martyrs from Rev. 7. It says, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep [have died] in Jesus."
So when Jesus returns for His church, the spirits/souls of those Christians who have died during the Church age (from Pentecost to His coming) will actually accompany Jesus on the trip down to Earth and then finally be reunited with their new resurrected bodies.
:stands back:
Needs a coat of paint, but it looks like it'll hold up in a storm.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Uh, #2 (being outside of
February 11, 2008 - 23:36 ET by Free StinkerUh, #2 (being outside of time) means that #3 They wait for an unspecified time is inaccurate. #3 would equal no wait. i.e. - you don;t wait for *any* time if you are outside of time.
Otherwise, sounds right to me.
Newsbusters. Log on and find out What the heck is so yummy over here!
PJ
February 11, 2008 - 23:41 ET bywhy limit God to a single time function? The heavenlies are described sequentially but the sequence does not necessarilly have to follow the same vector as the one we know.
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
Whups. . .
February 12, 2008 - 15:09 ET by tracheostomyYep, it'll hold up in a storm. . .looks good to me!
:CRASH!!!:
Crap. What did I forget?
:smacking forehead:
That's right. . .nails. And a hammer. >_<'
See that's the part of the rapture I still don't get (but refuse to give up on, see TM's statements above*).
If God is Lord of time, exists outside of it, knows it, and controls it, why would He have the martyrs wait? And before the throne no less?
I might have the timeline wrong.
I'll keep working on it, but regardless, "soul sleep" is still ruled out.
-PJ
* "Study to show thyself approved. . ." and all that. No big deal, right?
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
RD There is booklet that addresses this...
February 12, 2008 - 12:41 ET by BritcomIt is called, "What Science Can't Discover About The Human Mind"
It provides a detailed explanation using scriptures and explains the meanings of the original Hebrew and Greek terms that have been translated as "spirit", "soul", and "body". The booklet does a better job of explaining the meaning of the words than I can do, so I will just offer you the below link to a PDF version of the booklet.
"What Science Can't Discover About The Human Mind" >>
If you want to study further, you can find more booklets on other subjects here >>
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
Thanks, Britcom.
February 13, 2008 - 03:32 ET by R D HelmI have heard of it, but I haven't read it. It is now on my list.
-Once I finish the Neal's rebuttal to the tax luddites, that is.
:-)
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. -J.W. von Goethe
Eye has not seen
February 12, 2008 - 13:29 ET by KC MulvilleFirst Corinthians - "What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him..."
I take this at face value. It implies that no one can know what will happen in God's plan except God. That's good enough for me. There's nothing I can do about it anyway. When God planned how things were supposed to go, I wasn't at the meeting.
Then what good is the
February 12, 2008 - 15:10 ET by tracheostomyThen what good is the revealed Word? Why even tell us these things?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
The purpose of the word
February 12, 2008 - 16:37 ET by KC MulvilleThe revealed word focuses on the here and now, of sin and redemption. That's where our focus should be. Let God take care of the afterlife. Recall the gospel where Jesus warns us that a servant has only done his duty. He ought not expect rewards for what is only his duty.
KC: The revealed word
February 12, 2008 - 17:01 ET by tracheostomyKC: The revealed word focuses on the here and now, of sin and redemption.
And nothing else?
KC: That's where our focus should be.
So Timothy was only referring to the Old Testament? Is NT scripture also "God-breathed"? Why then would the revealed word waste so much time "revealing it" to begin with? What's it good for then, if it doesn't deal with the here and now, sin, and redemption?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Context
February 12, 2008 - 19:19 ET by KC MulvilleI'm a non-fundamentalist Catholic. I take it for granted that the bible addresses the issues God wants to address, and not necessarily the issues we would have liked it to address.
Here's the context. Paul goes to Corinth, makes a few converts, then moves on. After he's left, the people have some questions, and they write letters to Paul. Paul writes back, not because he's writing a comprehensive treatise on theology as a whole, but merely to answer their specific questions. His answers are shaped by their specific questions, not on the general topic of the afterlife.
Remember, this was in the 50s AD, about twenty years after Jesus' passion. The Romans had caught up to the apostles, and the Twelve were being martyred. Some of the first believers were also dying, of natural death and otherwise. The people in the first communities, however, started asking questions. They knew that Jesus had preached about eternal life. So, if the people whom Jesus had picked himself were dying, what was this eternal life thing all about?
Paul's answers, and the gospels which followed ten years or so later, all had to address that issue. But many of the followers were apparently leaping to false conclusions. Some were saying that the first martyrs, because of their sacrifice of faith, were going to have a privileged place in the afterlife. They started having internal battles over these questions, with factions and jealousies. The chief purpose of Paul's letters were not to offer a revelation or explanation of the afterlife, but chiefly to prevent the factions from tearing the community apart.
As I say, I'm a non-fundamentalist Catholic. I don't believe that the scripture was intended as a theological treatise, and it shouldn't be treated as such. I imagine others have a different view, so that's fine.
Did you read my post, KC?
February 12, 2008 - 19:37 ET by tracheostomyDid you read my post, KC? Were you aware I was referring to 2 Timothy, v.16 the whole time?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Sticking to the topic
February 13, 2008 - 05:18 ET by KC MulvilleYes, I read your post. But no, I wasn't paying attention to any specific reference. I was more concerned with the overall topic, which is speculation about the afterlife. As it happens, that was one of the earliest and most important questions in the early church, and there's a substantial history behind it.
However, I'm willing to pause and see if we can synchronize our assumptions. I'm certainly willing to admit that I may have misunderstood what you were saying. So, to be clear, what point were you trying to make? (Remember, I'm from Philadelphia. Subtlety is lost on me.)
Jesus was a Jew
February 12, 2008 - 20:01 ET by BritcomJesus was a Jew and he mainly spoke to Jews. His teachings were rooted in Judaism and the Old Testament. He amplified and clarified the Old Testament teachings and added to them the Gospel and later John added the Revelations which unlocks Daniel.
And also Jesus being a Jew speaking to Jews, He and they understood the Jewish traditions and their spiritual meanings. (Note here that Judaism of the first century was markedly different to the Judaism of today which mainly comes down from the Pharisees) If one studies Jewish tradition and compares that tradition with the New Testament Scriptures, one can open up a whole world of underlying meaning that is there. It is like seeing in color for the first time. As an example some of the parables of Jesus refer to the Jewish marriage ceremony, if one has no knowledge of this tradition, one cannot understand the parables fully.
I believe that much of Catholic and protestant theological tradition has rejected the Jewishness of Christ and thereby applies a self imposed blindness to the Bible's teachings. Every tradition of the Jews that existed prior to the birth of Christ was designed by God to prepare the Jews for the day of the coming of their Messiah. These traditions are them selves a testament to Christ, and as such Christians should make an effort to familiarize themselves with them and their meanings.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
we get to know somethings -
February 12, 2008 - 16:45 ET by TruthMongerwe get to know some things - but not everything
even Jesus does not know everything does he
Which Jesus at what time
February 12, 2008 - 17:02 ET by tracheostomyWhich Jesus at what time are you referring to, TM?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
well when Jesus knows the time
February 12, 2008 - 17:42 ET by TruthMongerand subsequently tells me
then you'll be first on my speed dial
http://biblelight.net/know.htm
http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_know.htm
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080117040721AA7GpXj
etc
although I honestly wouldn't be suprised if you already "know" and proceed to inform all of us in your next in-line post:)
groovy
Don't make me quote myself. . .
February 12, 2008 - 17:47 ET by tracheostomyNo, I said, "What time are you referring to?"
When Jesus said it, is He still in that state when He said that? What was going on in the context of the timeline that Jesus said that?
Are you saying that Jesus perpetually doesn't know certain things, even now?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Oh yeah. I noticed CARM
February 12, 2008 - 17:59 ET by tracheostomyOh yeah. I noticed CARM contradicts your thesis. Read the whole link before posting it.
1 Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know (eido) any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
However, this does not mean that Paul is setting the limits of all Christian knowledge exclusively upon the mere identity of Christ and the fact that he was crucified.
When quoted out of context, this verse serves to ignore the rest of the passage entirely, which is Paul's appeal not to limited knowlege or ignorance, but to wider spiritual wisdom. See 8-10. This wisdom is no longer hidden, but is being spun out through Paul by the Holy Spirit.
The revealed word is not hidden, not written to be tossed in confusion, and not to be willfully ignored either.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
I know, I read em all -
February 12, 2008 - 18:02 ET by TruthMongerI know, I read em all - the problem is that everything always contradicts everything on this planet
Then why bother defending
February 12, 2008 - 18:04 ET by tracheostomyThen why bother defending it with links?
CARM states. . .
Are you therefore saying Jesus still doesn't know everything? -PJ "Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
ever link known to man is
February 12, 2008 - 18:13 ET by TruthMongerever link known to man is contradictory - it's not my fault
I'm referring to the time
February 12, 2008 - 18:00 ET by TruthMongerI'm referring to the time that Jesus is referring to, obviously - and as someone who "knows" so much more than me you should probably already know this
I know you know that I often refer to Jesus
and the scriptures say Jesus doesn't always know
and if Jesus doesn't always know
then I must also apply to ignorance
for I am only a small and humble part of the body of Christ, as I believe are you, although - I don't know for sure
or are you saying you and Jesus know the time?
if so, can you please tell the rest of us so I can book a baby-sitter
See above. You
February 12, 2008 - 18:06 ET by tracheostomySee above.
You have zero support for your stance.
Further, you have just openly denied Jesus' omniscience.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
it's not my stance - it
February 12, 2008 - 18:14 ET by TruthMongerit's not my stance - it comes from scripture - take it up with the big buy if you don't like it
pray pray pray
But you don't even read you
February 12, 2008 - 18:17 ET by tracheostomyBut you don't even read you own links, much less read your own Bible as you claim.
Then what is your stance anyway?
And why stand for anything if you're not sure to begin with?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
I said I read them My
February 12, 2008 - 18:37 ET by TruthMongerI said I read them
My stance is pretty wide - touching alot of shoes in the next stalls - but still pointing to Jesus
I'm pretty sure of Jesus, I just won't know until I croak - we're all in the same boat aren't we
Jesus is not omniscient, he
February 12, 2008 - 18:57 ET by BritcomJesus is not omniscient, he is the Messiah, our Lord and our King, but not God. God the father is the only God. Now that Jesus has been resurrected to immortal life, he sits at the right hand of God awaiting God's command for Him to return to Earth and set up His Kingdom. Jesus said he does not know the day or the time of his return, only God knows.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
well Brit
February 12, 2008 - 22:35 ET byHe did indeed set aside for his earthly ministry some attributes even still said
"I and the Father are one"
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
Oneness
February 13, 2008 - 10:05 ET by BritcomIndeed, Christ did not sin, he and his Father were, and are, in complete agreement and Christ has given God his unwavering loyalty. This is why only He has earned the crown and is worthy to be called our king.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
Brit
February 13, 2008 - 10:08 ET by Cool ArrowI'm also proud to repeat the words of the Apostle Thomas: "My Lord and my God"
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"
♣ a seal
Excellent quotes
February 13, 2008 - 12:31 ET by BritcomThomas did offer that he placed Christ in the position of his God. This does not automatically say that Christ merited that position since it appears to have been meant as an acknowledgment of His divine authority.
John's declaration that the "Word" was God, was "with" God and that the Word became flesh in Jesus has been a subject of much discussion. I understand it to mean that the Word was the Holy Spirit that descended upon Christ and made him one with God through that indwelling spirit, just as we become brothers in Christ by receiving that Holy Spirit which comes from God.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
Britcom, how much value do you place on the Bible?
February 13, 2008 - 16:46 ET by tracheostomyBrit: Thomas did offer that he placed Christ in the position of his God.
Then why wasn't Thomas' "offer" rebuked for violating the first and second commandments?
. . .why?
Brit: This does not automatically say that Christ merited that position. . .
Then please, do not fill in the blanks with your own outside suppositions. How much of the Bible, as in what percentage of it, do you reject?
Brit: . . .since it appears to have been meant as an acknowledgment of His divine authority.
But is it really?
Then answer me why Thomas was not rebuked (or died outright on the spot) for his worship of a mere man.
There is one God and he shares worship with no other. If Matthew 28:18 is correct (for. . .whatever value you personally place on the authority of scripture), Jesus is given all the authority of God Himself. That's far more than mere title, or a portion of the Father's heavenly energy.
By verse 20 of Matt 28, wouldn't Jesus Himself be violating the commandments? Can God the Father be accused of lying or hypocrisy? He could if he told the Jews for thousands of years to worship only God and then switch to a mere "divine" man.
WHY wasn't Thomas rebuked?
Riddle me this Britcom, how much value do you place on John chapter 8? In verses 58-59, they attempt to stone Christ.
Why? Why did they attempt to stone Him? Was Jesus lying?
Next question for Britcom: What's your spin on Colossians 2:9?
I'd get to this ASAP if I were you, for the time is short.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Answers...
February 13, 2008 - 22:59 ET by BritcomBrit: Thomas did offer that he placed Christ in the position of his God.
Then why wasn't Thomas' "offer" rebuked for violating the first and second commandments?
. . .why?
***Because it wasn't a violation. Remember at this time Christ had risen to the Father and obtained his authority over us. That makes Christ Lord. Thomas went further in saying that Christ was "his" God. He did not say that Christ was "the" God (meaning the Father) rather Thomas was acknowledging to Christ that he recognized God's authority had been given to Christ and as such Christ was now part of the "God-head" or family of God. Since Christ is in full agreement with God, and God has placed his authority on Christ, Thomas now describing Christ as "his God" is not a characterization, but is a statement of submission. Thomas was not speaking to us, even though we hear him through John's writing, so we need not be confused that what Thomas was saying was full of meaning, rather it was just Thomas' heartfelt expression of loyalty. Christ does not rebuke him as He had done to others in the past because of his new risen perfected status and authority. So if you want to say that Christ is "your" God, then I will not rebuke you either, but if you want to say that Christ is "the" God, then I will clarify that God is God the Father and none other, but Christ is our Lord who now has God's authority over us. That is not to say that Christ has God's authority over everything on the Earth, He doesn't yet, that comes later (or perhaps sooner).
Brit: This does not automatically say that Christ merited that position. . .
Then please, do not fill in the blanks with your own outside
suppositions. How much of the Bible, as in what percentage of it, do
you reject?
*** I think "reject" is too strong a word, but I do not readily accept Mark 16:9-20 and John 7:53-8:11 because the most reliable early manuscripts do not have them. There are a few words here and there that are similarly disputed by Bible scholars. So I would say that amounts to about 0.001%. Of course that is for the 66 Books of the King James Version. I don't accept the apocryphal books that the Douay has, though I think a few of them are good study aids and I think a few of them are outright fiction. (I haven't read them all)
Brit: . . .since it appears to have been meant as an acknowledgment of His divine authority.
But is it really?
Then answer me why Thomas was not rebuked (or died outright on the spot) for his worship of a mere man.
***Answered above.
There is one God and he shares worship with no
other. If Matthew 28:18 is correct (for. . .whatever value you
personally place on the authority of scripture), Jesus is given all the authority of God Himself. That's far more than mere title, or a portion of the Father's heavenly energy.
By verse 20 of Matt 28, wouldn't Jesus Himself be violating the
commandments? Can God the Father be accused of lying or hypocrisy? He could if he told the Jews for thousands of years to worship only God and then switch to a mere "divine" man.
***I think I may have answered this above, but I will add that you hit upon the exact reason that many Jews give as to why they believe Christianity is false, they say because it amounts to polytheism. I don't think it is polytheism. I think it is hair splitting. I accept Christ as Messiah and Lord and with full authority of God over us.
WHY wasn't Thomas rebuked?
***Answered above
Riddle me this Britcom, how much value do you place on John chapter 8? In verses 58-59, they attempt to stone Christ.
Why? Why did they attempt to stone Him? Was Jesus lying?
***Jesus was not lying. The key to understanding verse 58 is verse 53 “Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died?", answer in verse 58, "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am'."
Christ here is stating two things at once, one, that He is greater than Abraham and that his coming was planned by God before Abraham was born. In doing this his chosen words were designed to leave the hearer with no other conclusion than He is the Messiah who was foretold, at the moment they would understand this, He invoked part of one of the names of God "I Am" but He did not use it as a name, but He knew they would think this and it would agitate them, and it did, they tried to stone him for blasphemy, but this was a mistake on their part, since what He said could also mean that He is the Messiah and not God the Father.
Next question for Britcom: What's your spin on Colossians 2:9?
***"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,"
The two operative words here "fullness" and "Deity". The word translated as "Deity" is only used only once in the NT and here. It's meaning is also the subject of much debate, but it is clear that it is not one of the names of God. It could also be translated as "Godliness". It is also in the present tense so Paul is here referring to the risen Christ, and not the earthly Jesus. So this scripture could be understood to mean the Glory of God was in Him.
Compare Col 1:19 "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, "
I'd get to this ASAP if I were you, for the time is short.
*** :?)
---
Huckabee/Hunter '08
Brit: Because it wasn't a
February 14, 2008 - 00:16 ET by tracheostomyBrit: Because it wasn't a violation. Remember at this time Christ had risen to the Father and obtained his authority over us. That makes Christ Lord. Thomas went further in saying that Christ was "his" God. He did not say that Christ was "the" God (meaning the Father) rather Thomas was acknowledging to Christ that he recognized God's authority had been given to Christ and as such Christ was now part of the "God-head" or family of God. Since Christ is in full agreement with God, and God has placed his authority on Christ, Thomas now describing Christ as "his God" is not a characterization, but is a statement of submission.
There's the disconnect. You're flip-flopping "the" and "my" specifically. The point is that God the Father did not manditorily dispense this authority to a separate being. That would be God violating his own standards of worship. Jesus did not earn it either (at least not in the sense you are imposing, that one is begging for clarification). You also forgot John 8 and the Mount of Transfiguration which came before the resurrection (see below).
Brit: Christ does not rebuke him as He had done to others in the past because of his new risen perfected status and authority.
But you are proposing that He is somehow "separate" from the Father.
Brit: So if you want to say that Christ is "your" God, then I will not rebuke you either, but if you want to say that Christ is "the" God, then I will clarify that God is God the Father and none other, but Christ is our Lord who now has God's authority over us.
There is no difference, because I am ascribing the title of God to the same object. The title further originates from the same worshiper.
PJ: Jesus is my Lord and my God.
PJ: Jesus is the Lord and the God.
The only difference is the possessive and a whole lot of front-loaded static. If Jesus is not the Lord and the God, to the many, then He cannot be the Lord and the God to the individual (or "mine").
Brit: That is not to say that Christ has God's authority over everything on the Earth, He doesn't yet, that comes later (or perhaps sooner).
Does that mean God's authority was given or taken?
Brit: I think I may have answered this above, but I will add that you hit upon the exact reason that many Jews give as to why they believe Christianity is false, they say because it amounts to polytheism. I don't think it is polytheism. I think it is hair splitting. I accept Christ as Messiah and Lord and with full authority of God over us.
Question #1. If Jesus is not God, then is He a created being?
Question #2. Are you absolutely sure that there is no middle road between polytheism and modalism? I propose there is.
Question #3. Why do you consider it hair splitting? I call it a valid argument.
Brit: Christ here is stating two things at once, one, that He is greater than Abraham and that his coming was planned by God before Abraham was born.
No. It doesn't. Not "planned." He states it in the present-tense.
Brit: In doing this his chosen words were designed to leave the hearer with no other conclusion than He is the Messiah who was foretold, at the moment they would understand this, He invoked part of one of the names of God "I Am" but He did not use it as a name, but He knew they would think this and it would agitate them, and it did, they tried to stone him for blasphemy, but this was a mistake on their part, since what He said could also mean that He is the Messiah and not God the Father.
You flip-flopped. A claim to Messiah is not blasphemy. They understood the claim. It was not a mistake on their part.
Brit: The two operative words here "fullness" and "Deity". The word translated as "Deity" is only used only once in the NT and here. It's meaning is also the subject of much debate, but it is clear that it is not one of the names of God.
Where is it also used in the NT?
Brit: It could also be translated as "Godliness".
But not according to very nature. Either He is God-like, or He has God-nature.
Brit: It is also in the present tense so Paul is here referring to the risen Christ, and not the earthly Jesus.
I agree with this part, but. . .
Brit: So this scripture could be understood to mean the Glory of God was in Him.
That statement is a leap in reason. You are asserting Christ was a container for the Glory of God the Father based on Paul's present tense and nothing else.
Brit: Compare Col 1:19 "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, "
Now who's splitting hairs? "All" the fullness is not "some" of the fullness. Even the word "fullness" is a 100% assertion. "Fullness" is not "partness". If the fullness of God dwells in Christ, then where is the Father?
Oh, but then we swing from polytheism to modalism.
I assert a third argument and can PM it if you'd like. But it's rather tangential. The trinity is not a mystery or a "just so" statement. It is both provable and scriptural.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
More answers
February 14, 2008 - 11:05 ET by BritcomBrit: That is not to say that Christ has God's
authority over everything on the Earth, He doesn't yet, that comes
later (or perhaps sooner).
Does that mean God's authority was given or taken?
***God's authority was offered. Christ qualified for that offer by being the heir of David and also meeting the qualifications for High Priest, in one man. He earned that offer by living a perfect sinless life and sacrificing his body in exchange for the redemption of those who sinned unto death. He is now our eternal King AND High Priest who sits at the right hand of God and awaits the day of his return to take possession of the nations of the world.
Brit: I think I may have answered this above, but
I will add that you hit upon the exact reason that many Jews give as to
why they believe Christianity is false, they say because it amounts to
polytheism. I don't think it is polytheism. I think it is hair
splitting. I accept Christ as Messiah and Lord and with full authority
of God over us.
Question #1. If Jesus is not God, then is He a created being?
***Yes, he is born of a woman.
Question #2. Are you absolutely sure that there is no middle road between polytheism and modalism? I propose there is.
*** I don't accept trinitarianism because I don't see a clear Biblical basis for it. You might say I believe the Bible describes a basic (small 'u') unitarian theology.
Question #3. Why do you consider it hair splitting? I call it a valid argument.
***Because I don't think one's salvation hinges on it. It may be of interest to Bible scholars to delve into the depths of esoteric meaning to insure that one has full knowledge, but not everyone wants to devote that kind of attention to the subject.
Brit: The two operative words here "fullness" and
"Deity". The word translated as "Deity" is only used only once in the
NT and here. It's meaning is also the subject of much debate, but it is
clear that it is not one of the names of God.
Where is it also used in the NT?
***I meant to say: "The word translated as "Deity" is only used once in the NT and that is here."
Brit: Compare Col 1:19 "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, "
Now who's splitting hairs? "All" the fullness is not "some" of the
fullness. Even the word "fullness" is a 100% assertion. "Fullness" is
not "partness". If the fullness of God dwells in Christ, then where is
the Father?
***The same word translated as "fullness" is elsewhere translated as as "fulfillment". which means to "fill up", not to adopt a different (presumably larger) volume of "filling". I take it to mean the fulfillment of Messianic authority.
I assert a third argument and can PM it if you'd
like. But it's rather tangential. The trinity is not a mystery or
a "just so" statement. It is both provable and scriptural.
***I don't use PM, I prefer the public forum.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
Brit
February 14, 2008 - 00:28 ET byHere we have three verses
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
“Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’
Note what Jesus says immediately after quoting from the Law! (But I say...) In doing so He claims greater authority than Scripture. There is only One authority greater than the Word of God, that is the giver of the Word. (ie: God)
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
:applause:
February 14, 2008 - 00:40 ET by tracheostomyBotg, that was just plain awesome.
If every Christian agreed that Jesus was their personal Lord and God, would they be lying? Brit cannot say this is true in one sense and false in another at the same time.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
gimme a break
February 14, 2008 - 14:43 ET by TruthMongerJesus never claimed greater authority over scripture
it's just clarification, revelation, fulfillment of the law - Jesus does not usurp the law - the law was perfect from day one and still is
but our ability to understand is woefully inadequate
and moreso to try and communicate it to someone else
we are the blind leading the blind
this is what trach does not understand
the polite terms for this are arrogance, hubris, narcissism
not good, setting himself up for a big fall
:sigh:
February 14, 2008 - 16:33 ET by tracheostomyThen what good is it to study the Bible as you claim to be doing every day, TM? Is reading the Bible a mere form of mystical ritualism for you?
What does it really mean when Jesus is explicitly referred to as Lord of the Sabbath? That's Mosiaic law and scripture.
But you plead that the "ignorance is bliss" argumentum is an absolute, and then beat us all over the head with it.
You're nothing but a broken record now. If this is all hypothetical conjecture, then why bother to make assertions at all, TM? Why even bother to discuss at all? TM, your arguments are a form of spiritual fatalism to the core. You reduce doctrinal discussions to nothing more than mental mastrubation.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
talk about a broken
February 14, 2008 - 18:42 ET by TruthMongertalk about a broken record
nothing wrong with study and evangelism - just know the limitations on your judgement and authority
And to Truthie, those
February 14, 2008 - 19:19 ET by tracheostomyAnd to Truthie, those limitations amount to a fatalistic stance on divine revelation. They're all contradictory, so why bother?
Good job. Great theology man. Let's all just give up, curl up, and die.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
LOL Trach
February 14, 2008 - 20:09 ET by candanceYou're debating religion with Truthie? Get back to me when he says something profound.
you can't know that he won't
February 14, 2008 - 20:13 ET byyou can't know that he won't say that which you will fail to understand unless you know that you can't know.
Capiche?
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
Genius!!!
February 14, 2008 - 22:05 ET by tracheostomyROTF!!!
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
God is free to bestow that authority upon whom He wishes...
February 14, 2008 - 09:17 ET by BritcomTo Wit:
---
Huckabee/Hunter '08
Did you notice you're
February 14, 2008 - 13:41 ET by tracheostomyDid you notice you're forcefully flip-flopping the timeline? When did He get the authority again? Before or after the resurrection? If it was given, it was at a point in time. If He already had it, then why and for how long?
Work with me Brit.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
And above all that Brit. . .
February 14, 2008 - 01:25 ET by tracheostomyI can't believe I missed John 10:38, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
o_O < !!!
So are we going to take the scripture in context now Britcom, or are we going to do a bunch of explanatory twists and turns to force it to fit some presupposition?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
Christ answers...
February 14, 2008 - 08:56 ET by BritcomThe scripture you referenced is the Jews speaking to Christ. Let us see how he answered them in verses 34-36:
(You need not believe my words. I am just telling you what I believe because you asked me.)
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
I was hoping you'd go
February 14, 2008 - 14:09 ET by tracheostomyI was hoping you'd go there.
Explained here.
Brit, listen to me, you're leaving a "tell" to the rest of your audience that you're not willing to take it point-by-point. You're parroting talking points that we can see a mile away. This isn't appeal to authority of scripture. If it was, then why didn't you lead with the John 10:34 argument to begin with?
Are you going to lead me on a merry chase now, where I nail shut every new door you try to escape through? In order to do that, you would have to leave an entire wake of unanswered verses as you are doing now. Yes, I will hold you responsible for the verses you discard after you attempt to use them to stall with.
The Bible supports its own claim that Jesus is the I AM. Quoted from the above link:
The Jews had a valid point and Jesus meets them honestly and openly with it. No rhetorical games or tricks.
Brit, do me a favor please. Read the arguments to the contrary that the link takes on afterward. If any of those happen to match any of the talking points you plan on leading me a merry chase with, then you have a problem already. If you don't read the rest of the link, I can fairly accuse you of willful ignorance. All I'm asking is to check your talking points with the arguments below and you can ease my hand cramps from having to spoon-feed this to you, okay?
You're merely using cherry-picked verses taken in isolation as props for a forced presupposition, and then abandoning them for others when you're called to account for them. Jesus' opponents knew why they hated Him and they told him straight out. Any other explanation is forcing something else onto the text. You cannot make such a claim when they're all lined up in front of you. Deal with them all at once, for once in your life. Just because you take verses out of context, doesn't mean parts of the Bible automatically disappear at your whim. It's called intellectual honesty. I suggest you get some.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
like I said in my first
February 14, 2008 - 14:47 ET by TruthMongerlike I said in my first post
this is obsessing over scripture interpretations
we each have our own unique dictionaries
http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/inerranc.htm
you English scripture posts are like arguments based entirely on cliff notes
If every individual theist
February 14, 2008 - 16:38 ET by tracheostomyIf every individual theist is left all alone to their own exclusively ambiguous; individualized interpretation of the Bible, then God has failed to communicate to us adequately, and the parts of the body cannot function within the whole.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
why don't you copy and
February 14, 2008 - 18:37 ET by TruthMongerwhy don't you copy and paste all this, save it for 20 years, then open it back up and see if you still have the exact same opinions - that would prove me wrong about all this
i just love it when I win
February 15, 2008 - 12:48 ET by TruthMongeri just love it when I win with one tiny little post at the end
just like Jordan - hee hee hee
capiche, cantdance:)? lol
Fatalistic and
February 15, 2008 - 20:01 ET by tracheostomyFatalistic and pathetic.
-PJ
see you in 20 years:)
February 16, 2008 - 22:00 ET by TruthMongersee you in 20 years:)
TM? meet Pilate.Pilate?
February 17, 2008 - 01:22 ET by tracheostomyTM? Meet Pilate.
Pilate? Meet TM.
-PJ
punches in the
February 17, 2008 - 21:22 ET by TruthMongerpunches in the air:)
groovy
Because it's over your
February 18, 2008 - 03:42 ET by tracheostomyBecause it's over your head?
I think you take my answers
February 14, 2008 - 16:04 ET by BritcomI think you take my answers as an indication that I desire to debate you, I do not. You asked me questions, and I answered them. I did not respond to your other statements because they were not questions directed at me. I figured you just wanted to have your say.
I don't see the purpose of you learning what I believe just to debate the finer points of it. (no offence) I answered your questions, you said you didn't agree, so now we know we don't agree. I have studied the Bible, but I don't have it committed to memory where I can quote chapter and verse, and I don't have lots of time to devote to this one thread. I can see that you enjoy the debate, but I hope you can see that I am not prepared for a lengthy jorney down into Greek grammatical structure where none of the readers will follow us. If we did go there and you succeded in finding a better way of interperating a point I would congratulate you on your study skills. I am interested in wider concepts of making a difference, not a foot-note in the next addition of the NIV. There are people who don't know Christ and we may be their only chance to find him. Our time is short and America, it now seems is turning against us who follow Christ. If I can, I'd like to put a dent in that problem.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
Hey, Brit. We're cool.
February 14, 2008 - 16:51 ET by tracheostomyHey, Brit. We're cool. No harm; no foul in punching out when the jet loses all its engines, right? I can respect that. Sometimes discretion really is the better part of valor. Maybe you can explain that one to Truthmonger.
And if this "began" with a response on my part, then what was I responding to?
A break with orthodoxy and core doctrines of course. These are the majors we're majoring on. This isn't a quibble over minor details. I simply responded to an attack on the Godhood of Christ.
As always the debate is over when you decide to leave. Takes two to tango and all that. I will simply not allow a blatant violation of a major doctrine to stand without an appeal to the whole of scripture (that you have in fact abandoned, one piece at a time).
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
From your link again. .
February 12, 2008 - 18:07 ET by tracheostomyFrom your link again. . .
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
do you know the time or not
February 12, 2008 - 18:14 ET by TruthMongerdo you know the time or not - put up or shut up bro
You're still not reading
February 12, 2008 - 18:20 ET by tracheostomyYou're still not reading it.
You're also turning the tables on the discussion. This isn't about me. You said, "even Jesus does not know everything."
Keep it on topic.
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
He says he doesn't know the
February 12, 2008 - 18:38 ET by TruthMongerHe says he doesn't know the time, that's what I said - but it sounds like you're saying He does, and if so - has He told you
right on topic
TM: I know you know
February 12, 2008 - 18:23 ET by tracheostomyTM: I know you know that I often refer to Jesus
Yes, and most often without any context whatsoever. Who is this Jesus you're referring to anyway?
TM: and the scriptures say Jesus doesn't always know
Where?
TM: and if Jesus doesn't always know then I must also apply to ignorance
Who told you that? Where is that written?
-PJ
"Trake: Your lofty convictions are another blemish on the rump of congregational sectarianism." -Tumbler 5/15/07
- there's only one
February 12, 2008 - 18:44 ET by TruthMonger- there's only one Jesus
- links to scriptures above
- the church is the body of Christ - it's written in the Bible - are you sure you're a Christian?
"Many will come in my
February 14, 2008 - 20:10 ET by"Many will come in my name" ---- Jesus
TM best if you rethink that first premise
Supreme Court, National Security, Borders, Fiscal Restraint, my litmus test for President.
If anyone's familiar with
February 12, 2008 - 19:43 ET by CortillaenIf anyone's familiar with me, they con probably guess what my response is going to be here: I don't really think it matters.
What I believe is that those who are saved will not be sent to hell (in any incarnation of the term) or purgatory (again, or any kind) and will end up with our Lord. Whether it happens at the instant of death or if we simply sleep until Christ returns to the earth doesn't particularly matter to me. The exact nature of salvation's post-mortem benefits concerns me far less than salvation's alternative. I know I'll be taken care of, so I can focus on living for now.
www.rhjunior.com Great comics with a hefty dose of Christian and anti-nutjob goodness.
"With your mind as high as Mt. Fuji you can see all things clearly. And you can see all the forces that shape events; not just the things near to you." -Miyamoto Musashi
Thank you to everyone who participated in this discussion.
February 21, 2008 - 04:15 ET by R D HelmAnd thank you also for keeping things reasonably intelligent and out of the gutter. Everyone who contributed made some very excellent points, and you have provided some very different perspectives. It appears I have a lot more reading to do in this area, as I have not, as yet, made up my mind on this.
For me, this is not all that unlike the chicken and the egg question. At the end of the day, does it really matter? Probably not, but it is to me, at least, something interesting to think about.
RD
Glad I could help, RD
February 21, 2008 - 11:23 ET by Britcom---
Huckabee/Hunter '08
George Soros & John McCain >>