***A MAJOR DEVELOPMENT on this story has come to light, (See below)
Article II, Section I of The Constitution says:
"No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."
Since John McCain was not born in a State of the Union, does that mean he is legally ineligible to hold the Office of President of the United States?
Was the Panama Canal Zone a State at the time of John McCain's birth?
Is John McCain a Naturalized Citizen, a US National, or a Natural Born Citizen?
Here is a link to help you understand the differences and how it relates to the law.
Source: Wikipedia
__________________________________________
***UPDATE: This issue just hit the Drudge Report
[NYT: MCCAIN'S BIRTHPLACE IN CANAL ZONE RAISES ELIGIBILITY QUESTIONS...]
with a link to an article posted in the International Herald Tribune by Carl Hulse.
__________________________________________
***UPDATE: The above story hits the New York Times and Drudge links to it.Link to the NYT story >> (note: wait few seconds for the ad to disappear)
__________________________________________
***UPDATE: The story catches fire as MSNBC >> , The Wall Street Journal >> and CBS News >> pick it up.__________________________________________
***UPDATE: Is McCain Natural Born? Story goes Global >> as News Wires pick up the story.
__________________________________________
*** MAJOR DEVELOPMENT:*************NewsBusters' EXCLUSIVE!
John McCain, widely reported to have been born in the Panama Canal Zone in the Coco Solo Naval Hospital, COULD NOT have been born in Coco Solo Hospital and probably wasn't born in the Canal Zone at all.
The Coco Solo Hospital was not even built until after 1941
and the nearest hospital to the base was in Panama Proper (in Colon,
Republic of Panama), NOT the US Administered Canal Zone and NOT on a US military base.According to Franklin D. Roosevelt's "Executive Order 8981 - NAVY HOSPITAL AREA, COCO SOLO, CANAL ZONE " Dated *1941*
(remember McCain was born in 1936) The executive order lays out the boundaries for the land that the hospital would eventually be built on.Apparently we were lied to.
Now the Big question is; Where was John McCain REALLY born and why weren't we told the truth? Could it be that John McCain's birth certificate says he was born in the Republic of Panama?
To date the McCain campaign has issued no response addressing the Coco Solo Hospital discrepancy.
__________________________________________
***UPDATE: At least two suits have been filed seeking an answer from the US Supreme Court to the "Natural Born Citizen" controversy surrounding John McCain's Presidential bid.
More here >>__________________________________________
***UPDATE: NewsBusters' EXCLUSIVE!US Navy documentation has surfaced that refutes John McCains supposition that he was born in a US Military Hospital on the Coco Solo Military Base in the US administered Panama Canal Zone in 1936. Documents show that No Hospitals existed in the Canal Zone prior to 1941!
Building the Navy's Bases in World War II
History of the Bureau of Yards and Docks and the Civil Engineer Corps
1940-1946
Volume IIUNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON
1947
Chapter 18 -- Bases in South America and the Caribbean Area, Including BermudaPage 15 --
"By the end of 1940, work had begun on a new supply depot at Balboa, and on the Farfan Radio Station on the west bank, together with the enlargement of the two inland radio stations at Gatun and Summit. Two net depots were started in December, one at each end of the Canal, and during the same month a third contract was awarded for 1,400 housing units, 1,100 at Coco Solo and the remainder on the west bank at Balboa. The following summer two naval hospitals, one at Coco Solo and the other at Balboa, were begun."Page 20 --
"Hospitals"To care for the large increases in personnel which accompanied the expansion of the naval establishment, a new 200-bed naval hospital was built on a 40-acre tract of high land, on the north side of the new Trans-Isthmian Highway, about 3 miles from the Coco Solo air station. This facility consisted of a four-story structure, with additional buildings for quarters, laundry, garage, and sewage plant, all of reinforced concrete. It was commissioned in September 1942, and later enlarged by the addition of two temporary wards of frame construction, to provide 500 beds."
(emphasis added)
Therefore it has now been shown that John McCain was NOT born in the Panama Canal Zone at all, NOR was he born on a US military base or in a US hospital. Therefore there is no way John McCain can claim birth on US soil and therefore he cannot claim natural birth in the US. He was therefore born abroad on Panamanian soil and does not meet constitutional requirements of eligibility to hold the Office of President of the United States.
In order to avoid a constitutional crisis, the members of congress should immediately hold hearings on the subject of John McCain's birth place. John McCain's mother, Roberta McCain (who is still alive and of sound mind), can be called to testify as to where her son John was born and name the hospital and the doctor who delivered him. Since the nearest hospital to the Coco Solo base was the Hospital in Colon, Panama RP (outside of the Canal Zone), it is likely that documentation (McCain's birth records) will indicate he was born in Colon, Panama on sovereign Panamanian territory.
We need to sort this out now BEFORE the election, or the outcome of the election could be in doubt for months if it has to be argued before the Supreme Court. We don't need that kind of crisis during wartime in this country. We need to answer this question NOW!
__________________________________________
***UPDATE: Twenty years ago, Jill A. Pryor (then Senior
Editor for the Yale Law Journal) examined the "natural born" issue and
wrote a comprehensive white paper on the subject with extensive notes
and citations. Anyone interested in understanding the finer points of
the "natural law" issue as it relates to John McCain's presidential
bid, should start by reading her recent news article on the subject,
and then download her 1988 white paper report.
(Note: Ms. Pryor also uncoverd the fact that the statute that gives citizenship to children born in the Canal Zone or Panama to American parents, was not signed into law until the year AFTER John McCain's birth.)Source: Daily Report
Source: Yale Law Journal
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Comments Policy
it's probably similar to
February 21, 2008 - 21:42 ET by TruthMongerit's probably similar to being born to American parents but on a foriegn ocean liner, or if your parents are Americans working overseas - they count it...
people don't really seem to concerned about legal citizenship these days however...
Yes, but...
February 21, 2008 - 21:47 ET by BritcomIs he a "natural born Citizen" or a naturalized US Citizen. The Constitution is very specific. Both can be a Senator, but only one can be President.
OR is he a US National?
Legal questions all. Should the SCOTUS rule?
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
George Soros & John McCain >>
It was a US territory . . .
February 22, 2008 - 02:12 ET by Free StinkerIt was a US territory . . . nuff said
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
Actually, it was not US territory, it was leased.
February 24, 2008 - 06:00 ET by Britcom---
Huckabee/Hunter '08
George Soros & John McCain >>
Matters not
February 24, 2008 - 08:25 ET by UnsaneThe status of the territory is immaterial. My sister was born in a military hospital in Germany, but since she was born to two U.S. citizens, she is a U.S. citizen. Oh, and that territory is on lease from the German government. Thus she qualifies to run for President (though she genuinely knows absolutely nothing about politics).
She could have been born in a German Krankenhaus, but since her parents were U.S. citizens, she herself is one.
Keep reaching.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
unsane -- correct. Please
February 24, 2008 - 08:45 ET by Jack Bauerunsane -- correct. Please see above my response.
This was settled in 1790, and no doubt for the very reason which you point out.
It was no doubt quickly realized that the just enacted Constitution was in danger of disqualifying the children of those citizens serving their country dutifully and honorably in foreign lands.
An unsustainable position because who would volunteer to serve, for example, as a diplomat, knowing this would disqualify any offspring born outside US territory?
Boy -- those guys knew what they were doing back then!
As I stated above...
February 28, 2008 - 03:09 ET by BritcomThe Naturalization Act of 1795
superseded and expressly repealed the 1790 law. Therefore the 1790 law has no effect today.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
Is John McCain Married to the Mob?<
If he was born of US
February 28, 2008 - 12:09 ET by motherbeltIf he was born of US citizens, he is a "natural-born" citizen, no matter where he was born. My twin
sons were born in a hospital on Spanish territory, outside of Madrid.
Their births are recorded in the town of Torrejon de Ardoz. Their birth certificates are in Spanish.
They are US citizens. We had to file some paperwork with the US embassy in Madrid, but that's it. Because they were born of two US citizen parents, they are citizens. We did not have to "apply" for citizenship for them.
The embassy paper says "Certificate of the birth abroad, of a US Citizen." It doesn't say "citizenship conferred" or citizenship approved." It plainly says that they were born citizens. Birth abroad of a US Citizen
Let's just get to the
February 28, 2008 - 13:19 ET by Jack BauerThanks for the info...
But let's just get to the point...
Are you claiming that the children of US servicemen and women born in a foreign country are NOT "natural" born citizens, and therefore illegible to run for President?
If so... how come this rule has not been enacted in regard to McCain, because is it NOT a secret where and when he was born.
From furhter research I see that the issue has never been challenged in the SCOTUS. I guess we shall see.
We don't yet know where McCain was actually born
March 6, 2008 - 04:45 ET by BritcomAre you claiming that the children of US servicemen and women born in a
foreign country are NOT "natural" born citizens, and therefore
illegible to run for President?
Yes, I am. I am not saying that they are not Citizens. I am saying that for purposes of being President alone, they do not qualify as natural born according to the letter or the spirit of the law.
If so... how come this rule has not been enacted in regard to McCain, because is it NOT a secret where and when he was born.
The rule is that someone like McCain cannot be president, it does not say they cannot run for president (though it would've been better if it had).
McCain's true birthplace does appear to be a secret. He couldn't have been born at the Coco Solo Hospital, it wasn't built yet in 1936. He was probably born in Colon in Panama (not part of the Canal Zone). That means he is a natural born Panamanian Citizen and as we know, you can't be natural born in two different countries.
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Communist vs. Statist '08
Is John McCain Married to the
Makookoo for Hucklepuffs!
March 6, 2008 - 22:28 ET by Free StinkerMakookoo for Hucklepuffs!
No leg to stand on
February 23, 2008 - 08:57 ET by UnsaneHis parents were U.S. citizens, and that is enough to make him one, regardless of where he was born.
The two paths to citizenship for most of us is to either be born in the United States, or to be born to U.S. citizens, or both.
Congratulations, my Conspiro friend. Once again you have no leg to stand on. If you want Huckabee to win so badly, may I suggest convincing him to actually BE a conservative for a change?
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
McCain's Parents were US Citizens
February 24, 2008 - 05:44 ET by BritcomSo, to clarify, (correct me if I am wrong) you are saying that McCain was NOT "natural born", BUT that because his parents were both US Citizens, that makes him a US Citizen.
But, as we know, not all US Citizens are legally entitled to hold the office of President. For example, Arnold Schwarzenegger is a US Citizen, but not a natural born US Citizen and therefore ineligible to hold the office of President. If you are saying that McCain is merely a US Citizen, that does not appear to be enough to meet the Constitutional mandate to be a "natural born" US Citizen.
So, I don't think you answered the question.
The question is: Is McCain "natural born", or not; and what law or legal precedent supports either status for someone born outside of the 50 US States?
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
George Soros & John McCain >>
Britcom I'm neither not
February 24, 2008 - 06:43 ET by Jack BauerBritcom I'm neither supporting nor disagreeing with McCain... but on this point it seems you are simpy not correct.
NATURAL BORN does not mean only born within the territory of the continental United States. This is settled.
Socks the Cat
February 24, 2008 - 06:43 ET by Cool ArrowI guess the campaign ends with a Howard Dean type scream of MEOW. (Moral Equivalent Of War), harking back to the Carter era. Followed by harking a hairball.
♣ a seal
cool -- yes, There Will Be
February 24, 2008 - 06:45 ET by Jack Bauercool -- yes, There Will Be Blood (and Claws)
John McCain, is he a natural born American?
February 24, 2008 - 17:56 ET by BritcomA US State Department document states the following: (emphasis added throughout)
And:
Therefore, it seems as if the State Department has determined that the 14th Amendment has overruled the earlier statutes that congress put in place and that the following further supports that showing that the Canal Zone was not US soil.
The 1790 law remained in effect until the Naturalization Act of 1795
superseded and expressly repealed the 1790 law. The 1795 law stated that the children of citizens of the
United States who are born outside the limits of the country "shall be
considered as citizens of the United States." (notice that the wording "natural born" was omitted from the later act.) The 1795 act was later itself superseded by the 14th Amendment.
So, it would appear that John McCain cannot claim US Citizenship under Jus soli (the law of the soil) or the 1790 Act , the latter of which was only in force for five years, and was repealed long before McCain was born. Therefore if John McCain does have legal status as a US Citizen, it must be found in Jus sanguinis (the law of the bloodline ). I cannot find a valid statute to show that persons can claim "natural born" US Citizen status via this common law precedent alone. I do find the such persons are US Nationals (a lesser status) when born in American Samoa, Swain island, and the Panama Canal Zone.
Persons who are US Nationals alone do not appear to be eligible to hold the office of President as they are neither Citizens, nor "natural born" in the US.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
George Soros & John McCain >>
Britcom... He may be a
February 24, 2008 - 17:57 ET by Clear thinkerBritcom...
He may be a natural born American, but he is definately NOT a natural born American leader!
First a definition for
May 3, 2008 - 17:00 ET by stratmanFirst a definition for clarification:
As to the United States Naturalization Act of January 29, 1795, Section 3 states
which means that if this Act were used to determine citizenship status of McCain, then he would not be a naturalized citizen but a natural born citizen because the Panama Canal Zone was under the jurisdiction of the US at the time of his birth.
On to soil versus blood.
While bloodline is not expressly embodied in the words of the Constitution, certain "statute(s)" grant citizenship called "derivative" and not "naturalization".
Note the use of "jurisdiction" again, in this case used to denote that merely having a military installation or a consular facility does not mean control of a territory. The US has a military base and a diplomatic facility in Germany but the Germans have control over the German territory. IMO, the above refers to foreign nationals who give birth in one of those facilities mentioned, that their offspring is not automatically granted US citizenship. The goal is not to encourage foreign nationals to give birth on American installations for a jackpot entrance into the USA. The same goes for foreign diplomats, enemy occupation, Foreign ministers and their offspring, even if born on American soil/territory, including those born of foreign nationals on a foreign registered ship while in US waters. The opposite is true for offspring of American citizens, though ancillary statutes to the Constitution grant the citizenship... and their is no calculus of "naturalization" involved.
Interestingly, a foreign national giving birth on a foreign registered airline (eg Quantas) while over US territory would not confer US citizenship to the child, yet, an illegal alien held in a US territory detention center who gives birth would confer US citizenship to the offspring.
The truth ain't nothin' but the truth
February 24, 2008 - 08:37 ET by UnsaneOh, I answered the question; you just don't like the answer.
Unfortunately for you I will bring examples from home into this to demonstrate I know something about what makes a citizen.
My mother is a naturalized U.S. citizen. She was born in Germany to German parents. It's a long story, but eventually she and my grandmother emigrated to the United States and my mother became a citizen of this country. So, can she run for President? No, because she was born a German citizen and became naturalized later.
My mother later met and married an Army Sergeant who I know colloquially as "Dad". But I was not their firstborn. My oldest sister was, and she was born midway through my father's first tour in Germany. Ironically, my German-born mother, then (and now)a U.S. citizen, gave birth to my sister in a military hospital, and my father was of course a U.S. citizen, born and raised in the Midwest.
But, according to the law, because my sister was born to two U.S. citizens, she was a U.S. citizen, and still is. It matters not the status of the land you are on in that instance as long as the child is born to U.S. citizens. (Virtually every U.S. military brat on earth understands this concept cold.)
Therefore, my sister could run for president, even though I genuinely believe she could not find DC on a marked map, much less know how long a president serves in office for. Why? Because in spite of your reaching, she was born to two U.S. citizens. Later, that same couple would give birth to two other children in TX (to include me) and that would be a double whammy: we are citizens both by the law of the soil and the law of the blood (the Latin terms for those phrases escapes me).
And so this goes for the McCains. They could have had John in downtown Panama City or Colon, or anywhere in the world, but it does not matter in the eyes of the law. Since his parents are U.S. citizens, HE is a U.S. citizen.
Do you wish to keep digging your hole or do you need me to cite further examples?
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
So you have a German mum?
February 25, 2008 - 19:38 ET by NL207So you have a German mum? Interesting. Do you know where Lubeck is? I can remember sitting in the kitchen with my mom when I was about 3 or 4 and reciting, ein, zwei, drei, vier ......
You are correct, Unsane...
February 27, 2008 - 04:26 ET by JerYou are correct, Unsane...whether considered to be natural born or instantaneously naturalized at and by birth, McCain clearly meets the presidential citizenship requirements; and no amount of symantical dancing or statutory tail-chasing can force a different conclusion.
Maybe we'll even see your hat in the ring in a few years.
Jer
If he was born of US
February 28, 2008 - 07:49 ET by motherbeltIf he was born of US citizens, he is a "natural-born" citizen. My twin sons were born in a hospital on Spanish territory, outside of Madrid. Their births are recorded in the town there. Their birth certificates are in Spanish. They are US citizens. We had to file some paperwork with the US embassy in Madrid, but that's it.
The embassy papers says "Certificate of the birth abroad, of a US Citizen."
YOu have to admit, it would be stupid if the law declared someone born of two US citizens elsewhere illegal, while making the child of non-citizens legal just because they got across the border when labor started.
So what IS the issue here?
March 1, 2008 - 09:39 ET by goldenthroatMB,
Good point! My pastor and his wife were missionaries in Taiwan for ten years and had two children while there. They often joke that the children were 'made in Taiwan with American parts and labor!"
"Much ado about nothing..." - Shakespeare...Shakesphere...Shakespere...aw, forget it.
Of course he is
February 22, 2008 - 13:20 ET by Gordon EatleyLook this is absolutely spurious and disingenuous. I'm in the navy and while stationed over seas in italy my daughter was born. She is a citizen the same as my other daughter who was born while I was stationed in Georgia. McCain's family was in Panama because of his father's service.
DITTO
February 28, 2008 - 12:30 ET by OldSailor88Due to complications in pregnancy, and the lack of NICU at Yokosuka Naval Base, my oldest was born in Yokohama in a Japanese hospital. She has a Japanese birth certificate and a Consular Certificate in English. She is a citizen because my wife and I are citizens.
Stultus est sicut stultus facit
McCain's Citizenship
February 24, 2008 - 14:45 ET by QueenMumBritcom: Why did you decide to put forth this question? Was it to merely clarify the differences in terms (Naturalized Citizen, a US National, or a Natural Born Citizen)? Or was it your intention to suggest that perhaps John McCain is not Constitutionally eligible for the office of President of the U.S.? Most thinking people would dismiss out-of-hand the idea that McCain is not an eligible candidate for the office.
Power to the people!
To promote The Huckster
February 24, 2008 - 18:01 ET by PopularTechHe put this forth to promote the Huckster who's demise is the only bright point of this whole primary disaster.
Economic and Security Conservatives will not vote for the Huckster so Suckabee fans please give it up.
I already gave you all the ammunition to convert social conservatives.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
The Zonian Candidate
February 24, 2008 - 18:08 ET by BritcomI am not convinced that John McCain's citizenship status entitles him to hold the office of the President. I would like to know for sure if the law supports the idea of a "Zonian" becoming President.
Better to find out sooner than later.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
George Soros & John McCain >>
Hi Brit... While there is
February 24, 2008 - 18:37 ET by bigtimerHi Brit...
While there is a lot we could talk about when it comes to McCain for some of us...this point is not one of them...at all.
Seriously, Britcom. Don't
February 24, 2008 - 20:08 ET by QueenMumSeriously, Britcom. Don't you think that both the media and the Dems would have brought up such a "problem" if it existed?
McCain was born in Panama while his father was serving in the U.S. military. He is by no means a Zonian, as you suggest.
Sec. 301. [8 U.S.C. 1401] Nationals and Citizens of The United States At Birth
The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom
are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one
of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;
You have been given ample evidence in this thread to convince any reasonable person that McCain is eligible to be President of the U.S. If you prefer to ignore the obvious, there's nothing more we can do for you.
Power to the people!
Thanks for that quote...
February 25, 2008 - 02:21 ET by BritcomBut it seem it was the right church, wrong pew. I found the right one. It pays to look a few pages ahead. Here it is: (emphasis added)
Now let us contrast that with the operative clauses of the other places from the same code:
Owing to the fact that John Jay's specific requirement clause in the Constitution of only a "natural born Citizen" may hold the office of President, we see that the office of President requires a higher level of loyalty than mere US Citizenship. Unlike other Federal offices that only require US Citizenship, one must be a natural born US Citizen to become President.
It appears that the "natural born Citizen" clause has an express purpose and is an effective mandate to keep foreign born persons from obtaining the position of Commander in Chief of the army.
Let me be clear, I am not saying that persons born in the Zone or other outlying areas are not US Citizens or US Nationals, I am pointing out that the Constitution has a unique and special requirement purposefully mandated upon those who aspire to the office of President.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
George Soros & John McCain >>
Ad nauseum
February 25, 2008 - 07:36 ET by Unsane...and McCain, like many other Americans (like my sister, read further above) meet that unique and special requirement because they were born to U.S. citizens.
If you are born on U.S. territory, you become a citizen. If you are born to U.S. citizens, regardless of the status of where you were born, you are a U.S. citizen.
What part of that do you not understand?
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Tis not I
February 25, 2008 - 14:29 ET by BritcomI think it quite obvious that John Jay and the rest of the Founding Fathers placed TWO (2) {"Count them: One... Two... AH! AH! AH! AH!", says the Count} criteria in the Presidential qualification clause in the Constitution:
The two are not now, and never have been synonymous. The Constitution discriminates. (gasp!) Those who were not born here are excluded from the office of President. You can dig up John Jay and argue with his corpse if you want, but it's still going to be in there.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
George Soros & John McCain >>
Ad nauseum
February 25, 2008 - 15:29 ET by UnsaneThe only thing you have demonstrated on this thread is your inability to read information differing from what your beliefs are, and your inability to critically think, which is legion (and that depresses me to no end). Not to mention an irritating ability to insult my intelligence, which was gained by direct personal experience as outlined above.
My sister's birth certificate clearly states that she is a U.S. citizen, because she was born to two U.S. citizens. End of story. She is a citizen of the United States because she was born to two U.S. citizens. The status of the territory on which she was born (a hospital on land leased from the German government) is 100% immaterial. And so it goes with McCain, who was born in similar circumstances for similar reasons.
I realize you want your populist hero to win in the worst way, but instead of taking this route (how dim is the light in the hold you are digging now?), you MIGHT want him to try and beat McCain on the issues.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Unsane
February 25, 2008 - 16:41 ET by BritcomYou're in denial and attempting to deflect the argument from "born" to "citizen". Just being a citizen doesn't cut it for the highest office of the land. People aren't that stupid you know. They don't need you telling them to disbelieve their own eyes.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
George Soros & John McCain >>
"What are you going to do? Bleed on me?"
February 27, 2008 - 02:24 ET by UnsaneLet me get this straight:
You have been presented with actual laws courtesy of the research of Jack Bauer and Queen Mum.
I have demonstrated how those citizenship laws have a direct impact on two close relatives, and thus shown how those laws are put in force.
And I am in denial?
Actually, I like seeing you whine "you're in denial". It really means that either you lost the argument, or that you are being forced to critically think (which either you refuse to do or are incapable of doing), or both.
And no, there is no deflection going on here. I guess I need to find a way to put this into a kindergarten-level coloring book...
My mother was born to German citizens in Germany, therefore she was born a German citizen. She cannot run for President.
My oldest sister was born in a U.S. military hospital in Germany to two U.S. citizens, and because she was born to two U.S. citizens, the law is clear: she is a U.S. citizen. Therefore, on that basis alone, it does not matter where in the world the birth took place. She is a U.S. citizen and was born one; no matter how hard you try to word-game, you cannot trump my experiences in this matter.
I feel as if I am King Arthur fighting the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
7 FAM 1116.1-4
February 27, 2008 - 20:19 ET by BritcomCan you not see that persons born on military installations receive their citizenship via artificial means and not natural birth on US soil. No person born on a military installation on foreign soil meets the criteria for "natural born United States Citizen". Military installations in Germany are not part of the United States. The State Department says so, not I.
To Wit:
The argument you keep making is the Jus Sanguinis (the law of the bloodline ) argument. Jus Sanguinis is a European concept not an American one. The US operates under Jus soli (the law of the soil) which is based in English Common Law which is the basis of the laws of all of the 13 American Colonies and 49* of the States and of the Constitution and the Federal Code. European (Roman) Civil Law has no application at the Federal level in this country unless it is specifically penned into law by Congress and signed by the President, and even then it cannot blot the "natural born" clause from the highest law of the land, the Constitution without going through the Amendment and ratification process. The laws of Congress are fleeting and can change, but the Constitution may as well be written in stone.
The 14th Amendment states that there are two ways to become a US Citizen, Birth and Naturalization. Citizenship through one's Parents is a form of Naturalization.
*[the odd State out is Louisiana which operates at the state level under the Napoleonic Code, which is based on Roman Civil Law rather than English Common Law]
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
George Soros & John McCain >>
The Department of Redundancy Department
February 27, 2008 - 22:47 ET by Unsane"Despite widespread popular belief...?"
You are only beating your head into a brick wall. My oldest sister was born in a U.S. military hospital in Germany. As she was born to two U.S. citizens, she herself is a U.S. citizen. Because of that, WHERE she was born is 100% immaterial and irrelevant. The end.
Last time I checked, I didn't see a program in place to fly home expectant mothers of diplomats and military personnel home to the United States to give birth on U.S. soil. Why? Because that is unnecessary; again, I cite my oldest sister's experience.
You will not trump my direct personal experience in this matter. (Not to mention, you need to hang out with more military brats, who again understand this whole concept cold. Hell, they make light of it on some otherwise awful AFN commercials.)
If you want your populist hero to win so badly, instead of wasting your precious time on a subject you have been beaten on over and over again, you MAY want to convince him to be a conservative rather than a populist.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
You are beating a dead horse
February 28, 2008 - 03:00 ET by Britcom"Despite widespread popular belief..." is a direct quote from the US State Department document I referenced. (in other words, I didn't write it)
I think you must be narcoleptic, you miss half of the things I write and never seem to read the reference material linked to.
Now explain to me how you think your sister's citizenship is pertinent to the POTUS argument at hand. Unless I am mistaken your sister has never been a candidate for POTUS. The "natural born" clause does not apply as a qualification for US Citizen, it is a qualification for the Office of President. This whole article is about the qualifications for President, not for Citizenship. You just can't ignore the qualifications you don't like, that would be... well... unsane.
Two qualifications for President must both be met; the first is Citizen, the second is "natural born". Why does this very simple concept vex you? Is it because you are convinced that no one receives their citizenship by virtue of being born on US soil alone? Are you not aware that pregnant illegal aliens, with no US relatives whatsoever, regularly cross our southern border just so their baby can become a "natural born" US Citizen? Once the baby is born on US soil s/he is automatically a Citizen under the Common Law precedent of Jus Soli. That child can never have his/her US citizenship revoked.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
Is John McCain Married to the Mob?<
Soil Not Part
February 28, 2008 - 12:35 ET by CGattonThere is nothing that equates "Natural born" to "Born on the soil." Rather the equality is "Born a citizen" is equivalent to "Natural born."
R/
Clyde
"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC
Keep on crying
February 28, 2008 - 13:12 ET by UnsaneWhine all you want about beating a dead horse. I have to keep beating the drum because of your absolute refusal to accept reality (which unfortunately is becoming your permanent trait).
I think you must be narcoleptic, you miss half of the things I write and never seem to read the reference material linked to. One, as I can only visit the Net for 30 minutes at a time where I am presently located (to allow all the troops their turn), even if I wanted to, I can't check your links. Two, because of your notorious inability/refusal to evaluate sources and to critically think, anything you post as a link is immediately suspect. Three, I don't trust most Internet links because I cannot evaluate the source myself.
Now explain to me how you think your sister's citizenship is pertinent to the POTUS argument at hand. And you whine that I miss half the things you write??? You miss 100% of the things I write. It's an easy kill if you bother reading objectively. Both my older sister and McCain were born under similar circumstances for similar reasons. My sister is a U.S. citizen by virtue of birth as is McCain, as are thousands of other brats. Unless I am mistaken your sister has never been a candidate for POTUS. Why that even matters I have no idea. The "natural born" clause does not apply as a qualification for US Citizen, it is a qualification for the Office of President. This whole article is about the qualifications for President, not for Citizenship. You just can't ignore the qualifications you don't like, that would be... well... unsane. Read again, word-gamer. Since McCain was born to U.S. citizens, he is a U.S. citizen at the time of his birth. Thus, he fits that qualification. As does my older sister. As do thousands, if not millions, of other children of diplomats, military families, and other professions.
You CANNOT READ what you want to read and believe what you want to believe in the face of reality and expect me to take you seriously.
Two qualifications for President must both be met; the first is Citizen, the second is "natural born". Why does this very simple concept vex you? To be a NATURAL BORN citizen of the United States, you either must be born on American territory, OR to two U.S. citizens, OR both. Why does THAT simple concept vex YOU? (Because YOU SO ACHE to see Huckabee win, and you know that he can't, so you have to try something completely disingenuous and full of holes.)
Is it because you are convinced that no one receives their citizenship by virtue of being born on US soil alone? Where did I say this? In fact, I seem to recall that I mentioned that citizenship is conferred by birth in the United States, OR by the law of the blood, OR BOTH. But what does it matter, you only read what you feel like reading anyway (and if it even slightly challenges your view of reality...forget it). Oh, and NOW you want to talk about what qualifies for citizenship? I thought this was ONLY about disqualifying Presidential candidates you don't like because your Populist Hero CANNOT win...I mean, only about Presidential qualifications!
Are you not aware that pregnant illegal aliens, with no US relatives whatsoever, regularly cross our southern border just so their baby can become a "natural born" US Citizen? REALLY? Why, having lived in TX most of my life, I NEVER knew that!!! (sarcasm off) Once the baby is born on US soil s/he is automatically a Citizen under the Common Law precedent of Jus Soli. That child can never have his/her US citizenship revoked. Are you not aware that NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE IN THE WORLD, as long as you are born to two U.S. citizens, YOU ARE A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES?
If that were not the case, how come the military and the State Department, among other agencies, routinely airlifting expectant mothers (spouses/employees thereof) to the United States in order to become citizens? Think about that...that is, if critical thinking won't kill you.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Alright, now it is becoming
February 29, 2008 - 01:04 ET by BritcomAlright, now it is becoming clearer to me why you don't follow my argument, you don't trust the internet. The US State department (not I) says,
To prove that this is a real quote from a real government document, You may go to the following United States Department of State web page:
http://www.state.gov/m/a/dir/regs/fam/c22712.htm
On that page you will find a the following link to a PDF document:
1110 ACQUISITION OF U.S. CITIZENSHIP BY BIRTH IN THE UNITED STATES
Download and open that document and go down to the paragraph marked:
Below that paragraph, Sub-paragraph "c." contains the above mentioned quote that I have reprinted here.
also the definition of "in the United States is here:
The 14th Amendment shown here
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=014/llsl014.db&recNum=389
on the Library of Congress web site states:
Now look at this SCOTUS case for comparison:
Rabang v. Boyd >>
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
Is John McCain Married to the Mob?<
Again
February 29, 2008 - 17:11 ET by UnsaneI follow your argument. Since you simply refuse to read what I type (because you know it will shatter your illusions), you don't understand I know it is full of crap due to my own personal experiences, as I have TWO blood relatives whose lives are directly impacted by laws pertaining to citizenship.
Not to mention you are, in your zeal to disqualify McCain because your Populist Hero cannot win otherwise, ignoring the very real experiences of those in this thread who have had children in Italy, Japan, and Spain, among other places. Perhaps your issue is with reality. It would explain some of your other nuttier beliefs you have shared elsewhere on other threads.
If you can be bothered to CRITICALLY THINK, answer my question: if becoming a citizen of the United States required birth on U.S. soil, please explain: why aren't expectant mothers constantly being flown home from all corners of the globe to ensure their children's citizenship?
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Your question is irrelevant
March 1, 2008 - 04:29 ET by BritcomOnly a person seeking the Presidency has to meet the natural born requirement clause. I know you desperately want to obfuscate that issue, but your whole point is moot now that it has come to light that McCain is hiding the truth about his birth place.
He claims he was born in a hospital that wasn't built for at least five years after his birth. It appears McCain is lying to cover up his real birthplace. Do we really want to support a man who tells us he is a US Citizen, but can't tell us where he was born? Who is John McCain? And why should we trust him with the highest office in the land?
I can already see that McCain has started the nose dive of his next plane crash and he wants to take the GOP down with him.
John McCain is not a Rino, he's a Mole.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
Is John McCain Married to the Mob?<
Again
March 1, 2008 - 09:24 ET by UnsaneOnly a person seeking the Presidency has to meet the natural born requirement clause. I know you desperately want to obfuscate that issue, Whatever makes you feel better, I guess. McCain, a Navy brat, was born in the Canal Zone to two U.S. citizens. Therefore, at the time of his birth, HE is a U.S. citizen. Thus he meets the qualification to run for President. (Much as people like my oldest sister, who was born under similar circumstances, a point you constantly ignore.)
And, because McCain's parents were both U.S. citizens, they could have had little Johnny in Panama City, Colon, or Santiago, Chile, and it wouldn't have mattered. He is a citizen by the virtue that both of his parents were citizens. Maybe if you stopped blaming me for your own refusal to accept reality...
Oh, and the fact that you whined about how irrelevant my question is only demonstrates further that you absolutely refuse to do what most adults do: critically think. I suspect refusal, because I think that you know the answer, and that the answer will shatter your whole theory. Therefore, you try to evade my very simple question by whining about how irrelevant it is, when in fact the answer is 110% relevant to your dubious thesis.
You are quickly becoming a bigger Conspiro on here than even ThoughtPolice.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
At this point your loony
March 1, 2008 - 17:00 ET by BritcomAt this point your loony devotion to citizenship by virtue of parentage has been thoroughly and definitively debunked. Citizenship is granted by place of birth within the United States, and by statutes that cover certain specific exceptions.
Citizenship through parentage (called Jus Sanguinis or Citizenship by blood) is, and (in the US) always has been, a philosophy propounded by Racist Confederates who tried to use it to keep natural born blacks from enjoying the rights of citizenship by reasoning that they had no blood relatives who were US Citizens and that their place of birth was irrelevant. The Congress and the People thoroughly rejected the Jus Sanguinis argument when they overturned the Dred Scott decision with the 14th Amendment to the Constitution which recognizes only location (called Jus Soli or Citizenship by Soil) and naturalization (Citizenship by Decree) as methods of obtaining Citizenship. The Citizenship by blood argument was there and then overruled.
If you wish to argue that McCain has natural born citizenship because he has citizen parents, that is intellectually dishonest, legally ignorant, and amounts to an attempt to invalidate or ignore the 14th Amendment.
Persons who were born abroad to US Citizen Parents and received US Citizenship, did so by special exception written into the law by congress. That is Citizenship by Decree (naturalization), not by the Soil. They are Citizens, but the Constitution makes them second class citizens with respect to becoming President. They don't qualify for it.
Now if you want to argue that a certain place abroad is in fact US Soil, we can know that by it's incorporation status. Be it State, Territory, Possession, Outlying Possession, Insular Area, Jurisdictional Zone, Military Reservation, or Diplomatic Office, if it is incorporated into the United States, then it is so by Act of Congress, if no Act exists, then it is UNincorporated and not part of the United States proper. Arizona Territory (birthplace of Presidential Candidate Barry Goldwater) WAS incorporated, so that argument is not pertinent to McCain's case since McCain wasn't born within a hundred miles of incorporated US Territory, much less a State.
If you want to say that McCain is a Jus Soli Citizen, then lets see his birth certificate and lets find that place on the map. Then lets see if any act of Congress incorporated that place before the time of his birth there. If none exists, that leaves us with only two conclusions either he is a naturalized US Citizen or he is a US National. Neither status qualifies him to hold the office of President.
So now we are presented with John McCain who's level of citizenship/nationality status is in question, and even his birth place is now in question since it is apparent that he continues to lie about what hospital he was born in presumably so that he could say he was born in the US Military Hospital at Coco Solo (which didn't yet exist in 1936, the nearest hospital was in Panama proper) and now we have John McCain one day claiming he is a conservative and the next day claiming he is a liberal, then one day he hates Christian Pastors, the next day he likes them, then one day he wants an open border, the next day he wants a closed border, one day he is photographed embracing his Vietnamese captors, the next day he says he hates the g**ks. The man's picture is in the dictionary next to the word "untrustworthy". I would rather have the Dog Catcher from Two Egg, Florida as President than this man.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
Is John McCain Married to the Mob?<
Brit
March 1, 2008 - 17:01 ET by botgthe ammendment is an addition, an add-on and is in no wise written as an exclusive change. Basically it is to include the freed slaves and their off-spring as citizens in addition to the offspring of citizens in the natural born catagory
No Poofdas
Again
March 2, 2008 - 14:20 ET by UnsaneAt this point your loony devotion to citizenship by virtue of parentage has been thoroughly and definitively debunked. The ONLY thing you have debunked is my belief that you critically think...or read...wait, you did that LONG ago. It really is too bad for you that I have a blood relative that was born outside the United States, and became a citizen simply because she was born to two U.S. citizens. Citizenship is granted by place of birth within the United States, and by statutes that cover certain specific exceptions. And you CAN'T argue this subject, as I have seen my oldest sister's birth certificate as direct evidence.
Since your candidate CANNOT WIN, you HAVE to believe this nonsense to have ANY hope and it's pathetic. Quick, Britcom, what did Santa bring you last Christmas? Expecting anything from the Easter Bunny later on this month.
Citizenship is granted by place of birth within the United States, and by statutes that cover certain specific exceptions. I guess you hate the military then. Military families have been having children overseas for decades now, and ALL of those children have been born U.S. citizens, as cited repeatedly by myself and others here. And no, throwing a bigger tantrum and word-gaming that much harder simply will not reverse that fact.
If you want to say that McCain is a Jus Soli Citizen 100% irrelevant, because his parents are U.S citizens. My God you are f#!$ing dense!, then lets see his birth certificate and lets find that place on the map 100% irrelevant because his parents are U.S. citizens.
Now, explain to me why I should vote for your Populist (NOT a conservative) Hero. I was not impressed with his foriegn policy proposal (penned by Huckabee himself) laid out in Foreign Affairs.
Also, you can answer my original question any time now.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Britcom, you ignorant twit ...
March 1, 2008 - 19:43 ET by QueenMumMcCain was born at the Coco Solo Naval Air Station. To suggest that, because a hospital may or may not have existed at the time, there is some question as to this fact, shows a bit of youthful naivete. Not everyone born at that time was necessarily born in a hospital. One would presume that an American airbase would have medical facilities and or personnel and that the military personnel on that base would avail themselves of such facilities. A building called a hospital is not necessary for birthing babies. The existence or non-existence of a hospital proves/disproves nothing.
I am Queen Mum and I approved this message.
Britcom is still on this?
March 1, 2008 - 19:50 ET by PopularTechThis is beyond pathetic and really shows the lack of knowledge Suckabee supporters have.
John McCain's citizenship will hold up in a court of law to be president and with public opinion.
No you are not going to convince more people to vote for Suckabee because of this. Give it up.
I found this months ago and did not bring it up because this is as dishonest as trying to claim McCain did not really serve in the military.
The Anti 'Man-Made' Global Warming Resource
I guess the Huckabee campaign is like a cult.
March 1, 2008 - 19:56 ET by Free StinkerI guess the Huckabee campaign is like a cult.
Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!
Why should I give it up?
March 2, 2008 - 05:24 ET by BritcomIt's working. McCain had to take time to address my question. He was patronizing, but he addressed it publicly.
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
Is John McCain Married to the Mob?<
I know you are, but what am I? Nnnnnnnnn!
March 2, 2008 - 05:06 ET by BritcomMy information comes from someone who was there. In 1936 Coco Solo base was a small outpost with no hospital since there was a functioning hospital in the nearby town of Colon Panama (outside the Zone) An on base Hospital was not thought necessary until the attack on Pearl Harbor. A few days later FDR signed an executive order to create one on land annexed to the base. During the time McCain was born, American babies were generally delivered in the Hospital in Colon. McCain was most likely born there, but you are right, he could have been born at home, he could have been born on a ship at sea or in the harbor. We just don't know.
Come to think of it, how much do we really know about John Sidney ('poor judgment') McCain?
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Huckabee/Hunter '08
Is John McCain Married to