In a long report published on Sunday the New York Times appears to be trying to promulgate the idea that our returning military vets cannot successfully reintegrate back into their communities and into "normal lives" after returning from the stress of active duty overseas. The Times seems to be saying that our veterans have become murderers and are so mentally wracked that coming home is difficult for them. Their entire report is written as if the rate of murders committed by returning veterans is shockingly high. But, a look at real statistics proves that vets are less likely to become murderers than the general population. The Times does a great job smearing our veterans as nutjobs, but does not do such a great job giving a balanced view of the real statistics.
The New York Times found 121 cases in which veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan committed a killing in this country, or were charged with one, after their return from war. In many of those cases, combat trauma and the stress of deployment -- along with alcohol abuse, family discord and other attendant problems -- appear to have set the stage for a tragedy that was part destruction, part self-destruction.
This 9 page (on the web) report gives us case after case and lots of generalities, such as...
"Everything is multicausational, of course,” Dr. Lifton continued. “But combat, especially in a counterinsurgency war, is such a powerful experience that to discount it would be artificial."
An obvious statement, but not a conclusive one by any means. This piece is filled with these sorts of comments alongside the specific stories of returning vets who did have breakdowns that led to murder. But the Times wants to make it seem as if our vets are universally a troubled lot.
But these killings provide a kind of echo sounding for the profound depths to which some veterans have fallen, whether at the bottom of a downward spiral or in a sudden burst of violence.
It is absolutely true that our current vets won't be different than past soldiers returning home. Some will not be able to get past their service, many more will be bothered by it but otherwise will be able to reintegrate back into society quite well, and still others will have no problems at all.
But, why did the Times focus on this aspect of vets turning into murderers back home? Was their motive merely to alert returning vets that they should feel no shame in getting help? If so, why go for such an over-the-top subject matter to do so? Or was their motive solely one of exploitation?
Whatever their motive, the organization Moving America Forward has issued a response to this Times piece that sets the record straight, proving that our vets are actually LESS likely to murder than the general U.S. population, undercutting the Times sensationalism.
The Times documentation of 121 potential killings out of more than 1.5 million veterans of Operation Iraqi Freedom (Iraq) and Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan), divided by 6 years of conflict results in a murder rate of just 1.34 incidents per 100,000 veterans per year.
That murder rate is far lower than the murder rate for the general population, demonstrating that the experiences of military service – including having served in Iraq and Afghanistan – actually made it less likely for returning veterans to commit murder once they returned home, than the general population.
Given a census-estimated population of the United States of 300,000,000 persons in this country as of October 2006, and FBI-compiled statistics of 17,399 homicide offenders for 2006, the murder rate of the general population was 5.80 offenders per 100,000 on average – and a rate of approximately 7.67 per 100,000 for men.
To recap, veteran murder rates put them at 1.34 incidents per 100,000 vets and the general population sees that statistic at 7.67 per 100,000. Apparently, we are safer with our veterans around than we are with the rest of the citizenry of the country!
So, why the focus on vets that turn into murderers, NYTimes? What else could it be that they have a desire to slag out returning troops, making them seem to be victims?
Comments Policy
Thank You so much WTH for drawing attention to this
January 14, 2008 - 11:39 ET by Dee BunkI was disgusted when I read the article and was hoping someone here would put it in context. They also included involuntary manslaughter like people killed in Drunk Driving accidents! It's really disgusting how they love to smear veterans.
The "media"
January 14, 2008 - 11:53 ET by iveseenitallThese f @#$% n bastards did the same thing to the heroes returning from Vietnam. Sick "liberals" never go away. PUKE!
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
Indeed, the awesome book
January 14, 2008 - 12:30 ET by BDIndeed, the awesome book "Stolen Valor" by B.G. Burkett, and Glenna Whitley essentially proves that returned Vietnam Veterans with proveable combat experience in Vietnam experienced LESS Homelessness, Less Crime, and Fewer instances of murder than the rest of the population base as a whole.
Why would we expect the veterans of Iraq/Afghanistan to be different, other than the left wishes it so?
Hi BD - If you are still around - Did you see War Tapes?
January 14, 2008 - 12:58 ET by Dee BunkI'm wondering what your opinion on whether it's overly biased. I wanted to rent it but if it's something that tries to make our soldiers look bad then I'd rather not give it any support.
Dee: I am afraid I am
January 14, 2008 - 13:27 ET by BDDee:
I am afraid I am unfamiliar with it.
BD
January 14, 2008 - 13:34 ET by Dee BunkIt's the one where they gave a whole battalion mini-cams to put on their helmets etc... They only ended up using three of the soldiers tapes I think so that is what has me a little skeptical. If no one responds then I'll rent it and report back in the Forum section or something.
desire to murder
January 14, 2008 - 12:56 ET by seaniepI was in both Afghanistan and Iraq, I lost some friends and saw combat, and the only thing that makes me want to commit murder back here in the states is when I see this sort of stuff mocking what I did and what is going on overseas
Thank you for your service Sean
January 14, 2008 - 13:01 ET by Dee BunkDid you see War Tapes? Has anyone seen it? I want to know what peoples opinions of it are - especially those who have served.
Just keep on pounding the
January 14, 2008 - 11:46 ET by taterJust keep on pounding the nails in your coffin NYT. I'd probably have a bigger chance of getting murdered from some punk kid who knows nothing about discipline or responsibility...than a vet who knows quite a bit about both.
Do you realize how much it costs to run for office? More than any honest man could afford. -Montgomery Burns
Frosted
January 14, 2008 - 11:49 ET by DEVILDOCMOMThis article and the others which will inevitably follow as others of the old media pick up on the "lead" of this dispicable rag really frost me. I read this site more than I post, but I have mentioned my son. A college dropout; HOWEVER, he entered college at the age of 14, always wanting to be in the military. As soon as he was old enought he dropped out and joined the Navy as a Corpsman. He finished top of his classes an was given the choice of his assignments. He chose the storied 5th Marines among other things because they were next to deploy to Iraq.
Lest anyone on this site not realized the role of a Corpsman...they do not hang back letting others carry on in battle. He lead, he fought, he cared for his men.
He is back now and has finished his degree at the university. Right now he is working in the family business and has managed not to kill anyone. :) Nor will he. Some medical problems from his almost a year in Iraq...sure. Some distress over what he saw and did...sure. A great kid tho', as are the bulk of others I have met.
What a disservice to our men and women.
Devildocmom
January 14, 2008 - 12:05 ET by iveseenitallGod bless your son. God bless all who have served to defend this nation. They've protected the very freedoms which give the scum at the NYT the right to do what they do. Please let him know that he and the rest of our heroes hold a special place in the hearts of most Americans. PUKE on the NYT.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
THANKS! I will let him know...
January 14, 2008 - 13:11 ET by DEVILDOCMOMIf I am talking with "ordinary people" and I mention my son's service I am ALWAYS told to thank him. The old media is so far from the rest of us it isn't even funny.
Frosted, Tell you son we
January 14, 2008 - 12:29 ET by Warner Todd HustonFrosted,
Tell you son we thank him for his service here at NewsBusters. My eldest son served in Iraq last year. Might be going to Afghanistan next year.
Thank you AND your son
January 14, 2008 - 13:14 ET by DEVILDOCMOMAs long as my husband and I have been married (37 years this year) we have bought a meal for a serviceman in uniform. We have always appreciated those who serve for us in the military. Please tell your son our thoughts and prayers are with him.
Thanks to both of your families and the sacrifices you make
January 14, 2008 - 13:27 ET by Dee BunkI can't imagine the stress and worry and then to have liberals and their partners in the media make them out to be either stupid or criminal.
DEVILDOCMOM
January 14, 2008 - 13:44 ET by Airforce_5_OYou tell your son thanks and give him a big hug for me.
I love these kids and I am so greatful for them. As me and my family kneel in prayer everynight these brave soul are a part of it. WTH thank your son for me too. It is a great honor to know they are a part of our defense.
THANKS! I will let him know...
January 14, 2008 - 14:54 ET by DEVILDOCMOMMy son does not like to speak much about his service and is a bit embarrassed when I mention the thanks people give him, but I know he appreciates it.
This sounds like one of
January 14, 2008 - 12:02 ET by Chris NormanThis sounds like one of those "stories in waiting". It was just sitting there, pre-written, ready for some statistics to be plugged into the blank spaces - no matter if they told the true story or not.
NYT
January 14, 2008 - 12:06 ET by FreakyBoy"The New York Times found 121 cases......."
Probably made up, as well.
Gee, which do they think
January 14, 2008 - 12:19 ET by BDGee, which do they think has a higher homicide rate....
1.) Iraq War Vets.
2.) Welfare recipients.
I wanna See some analysis on that.
Who has killed more waterboarding-Teddy or Army?
January 14, 2008 - 12:34 ET by PawpawNWho has killed more waterboarding-Teddy or Army? Interesting poll there?
The Senate is more dangerous
January 14, 2008 - 13:32 ET by ThisnThatGood point, Paw. I don't know what the turnover rate of the US Senate is, let's assume a rediculous rate of 50%/election cycle (which it isn't). This means that since the Chappaquiddick incident in 1969, there have been 19 elections. At a 50% turnover rate, that means 950 new Senators have been elected. Call it 1,000. The murder rate by Senators, therefore, has been 100 for every 100,000 Senators over 40 years; or an annualized rate of 4/year for every 100,000 Senators, more than 3 times higher than for returning vets. Why isn't this being reported by the NYT?
___________________________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
Great point BD
January 14, 2008 - 13:15 ET by Dee Bunkthat is a comparison you will never see
Made up!
January 14, 2008 - 12:24 ET by iveseenitallRight, FreakyBoy. I believe most of what the "media" reports is made up. It's part and parcel of the "liberal' mentality. "Liberals" are sick,sick, sick! Modern liberalism is truly a disease. Unfortunately, it is contagious, as evinced by the current B.O. mania.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
Statistically
January 14, 2008 - 12:36 ET by doug1950This is a typical NYT hit piece with feigned sympathy for the vets. They wrote it as if these Vets have somehow been damaged by their service and made into "killing machines". They did the same thing after Viet Nam as already mentioned. Statiscally, if you take into consideration the literally thousands of vets who have served in both Desert Wars and compared to the number of "documented" cases it is so small as to be minuscule. Has NYT ran any articles with the number of illegal aliens who have murdered, raped and assaulted our citizens? The article for me showed someone who defended themselves against a couple of thugs aimed at harming him. The fact that he showed remorse later kind of negates much of their premise. I would not have had that problem. We could just turn all the Vets loose and clean up the gang problems around the country. They apparently know how to do it better than the police.
MTS
January 14, 2008 - 12:48 ET by acumenIt is absolutely true that our current vets won’t be different than past soldiers returning home.
Except for maybe MTS (medal tossing syndrome).
NY Time...READ THIS
January 14, 2008 - 12:54 ET by JayTeeFrom a Recent Combat Death, and the associated web Site of the Brave American Soldier, posted in Abstentia......Quotes below..
This is an entry I would have preferred not to have published, but there are limits to what we can control in life, and apparently I have passed one of those limits.
I do ask (not that I'm in a position to enforce this) that no one try to use my death to further their political purposes. I went to Iraq and did what I did for my reasons, not yours. My life isn't a chit to be used to bludgeon people to silence on either side. If you think the U.S. should stay in Iraq, don't drag me into it by claiming that somehow my death demands us staying in Iraq. If you think the U.S. ought to get out tomorrow, don't cite my name as an example of someone's life who was wasted by our mission in Iraq. I have my own opinions about what we should do about Iraq, but since I'm not around to expound on them I'd prefer others not try and use me as some kind of moral capital to support a position I probably didn't support. Further, this is tough enough on my family without their having to see my picture being used in some rally or my name being cited for some political purpose. You can fight political battles without hurting my family, and I'd prefer that you did so.
You can read more at http://www.andrewolmsted.com/
Andrew, thanks for your ultimate Sacrifice.
I had read this previously
January 14, 2008 - 13:19 ET by DEVILDOCMOMThanks for the post on this, I had read it on another site. The death of this young man is a real loss to our country.
Any Bets?
January 14, 2008 - 12:56 ET by capavAny bets this story will be on bathtub boy's show tonight?
Same old MSM
January 14, 2008 - 13:01 ET by reasonsjesterThis NYTimes article shows that liberals are only capable of displaying a small handful of emotions towards military veterans: (1) pity (2) contempt (3) distrust. It would be great if an MSM paper would: Treat the Iraq War and the War in Afghanistan as if they are separate and distinct from Vietnam; praise our troops for killing terrorists; give them some credit for doing something great to improve the world. Instead, we get the same old rehashed template. Liberals never learn from history, which is why I hope they soon will be history.
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. - Marcus Aurelius
NYT
January 14, 2008 - 13:10 ET by DontFeedTheTrollsI'm curious here NYT. How many of our returning vets come home only to be:
Policemen/women
Firemen/women
Doctors
Nurses
Pilots
Business owners
Generally productive and law abiding citizens
Any stats on that NYT??
D
SalespersonsKeep the ILLEGALS out, join NumbersUSA to send free faxes to your reps.
DFTT
January 14, 2008 - 13:14 ET by Airforce_5_OAlso; What % is 121 compared to the number that have been in the AOR? My guess is less than 1% which is way below the national avereage compared to population.
Try agian NYT.
BEAUTIFUL
January 14, 2008 - 16:08 ET by reasonsjesterI really liked this point. Props DontFeedTheTrolls.
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. - Marcus Aurelius
Illegals? What about them?
January 14, 2008 - 13:12 ET by planetrepublicanWhy no special report of illegal aliens in this country and the rampant crime a good % of them are committing on a daily basis? I bet the % is higher for illegal aliens than returning vets but not a word about that. This is just another hit piece by the Times in their effort to "pussify" America. Bad mouth military, cops, guns, Bush. Meanwhile they ignore the crimes gangbangers, criminal aliens, Islamo's commit. Sad. And to think they think of themselves as sophisticated and the real heroes of this country as the unwashed masses.
So true
January 14, 2008 - 15:02 ET by DEVILDOCMOMI live in southern Arizona and I cannot begin to tell you about the reports which do not reach a broader media of shoot outs among illegals, drunk driving and killing citizens of the US, shooting of police officers. It is a disgrace that this is not covered more across the US. One site which does cover this issue is World Net Daily. Plus the environmentalists should see the destruction of our parks and fragile desert.
Greetings from Cochise
January 14, 2008 - 16:27 ET by BDGreetings from Cochise County Arizona. I live about eight miles from the Mexican line at the foot of the Huachuca Mountains. Where are you?
I concur that it is not unusual to have battles between the various smuggling rings, and that sometimes extends to the Smuggling rings and the Border Patrol.
It is not unheard to have the "sainted" (At least by the press) Mexican Army cross the Line in an effort to assist smugglers during altercations with the US law enforcement agencies. Usually, those altercations are quietly forgotten.
Simple solution for covering up crime rates of Illegal Aliens
January 14, 2008 - 17:37 ET by RJNew Haven, a Sanctuary City, simply passed an ordinance that the citizenship status of those arrested, tried, or jailed may not be asked about or reported.
No reporting....no statistics. As a result, the Illegals will soon have a "better" image when it comes to crime.
We live on the frontlines
January 15, 2008 - 01:41 ET by Wilbur747I live in Tucson and drive a train from El Paso to Yuma, Phoenix to Nogales. Every trip I have illegals jumping on my train while its moving, they get hurt, then find some liberal lawyer to sue the railroad for their injury and it inevitably comes out of our pay.
I constanly hear the libs saying how good "migrants" (read: illegals) are so good for us, but every day I see the HUGE amounts of trash they leave in my beloved desert. Where are the liberal enviro-whackos when this issue is raised? "Illegals are good" they say, so forget about the trashing of Organ Pipe National Monument, or my own neighborhood.
With great shame, I recently found out that my home was built by illegals, most of whom didn't even speak english.
With libs and their constant veteran hating diatribes and their love for illegal voters, I find it's easily fall into their trap and do "soul searching" when I'm asked why I or others were called to served. But then I snap to, remember my personal hero and President Reagan and I just smile and walk away.
From a retired Air Force "primadonna" to all of you who served or still seve, be it one year or 30, be it Army, Air Force, Navy, Marine, (or my personal friends) Coast Guard, and their spouses and children, THANK YOU! I wish I could still be there!
Wilbur: Greetings from
January 15, 2008 - 10:57 ET by BDWilbur:
Greetings from Fort Huachuca. When I go hiking here in the mountains, it is not unusual to find huge amounts of trash in the first covered and concealed positions north of the border in which the illegals can dump their leftovers.
After hiking for a couple of hours humping a cheap black back pack and a black garbage bag full of clothes, they will decide to lighten the load as they have a couple more days of hiking, so out comes the extra jeans, shoes, dirty underwear etc. And THOUSANDS of empty waterbottles. And it is all dumped in the most inaccessible areas of the Huachucas and Canelo Hills.
IF the greenies wanted to dosomething for the environment they would hump up into those areas and hump it all out, or make the detained illegals hump it out.
Greetings from Vail!
January 15, 2008 - 12:19 ET by Wilbur747Since enviros are libs and closely tied to dems, they can't be seen hiking there and cleaning up the trash. The MSM will take notice, the illegal immigrant problem will then be brought into a stronger light.
Now dems will have to at least acknowledge and there's problem, and since they claim to be the champions of the enviroment and they see the trash, they will be pressured to do something. To stop the trash, they'll have to stop the traffic.
Of course the dems don't want to be called racists and lose votes, so they'll try and keep the enviros quiet.
The northwest part of Tucson
January 15, 2008 - 11:23 ET by DEVILDOCMOMThe far NW of Tucson...I truly would not want to live further south for all of the reasons sited here. My son was up shooting in some land we had in Pinal Co. and was speaking with a deputy who said to be careful at night on the roads there-too many illegals and they were dangerous.
Well, I guess my argument for living further south of Tucson does not hold water...Pinal is north of me. :)
I think all of us on this site who live here realize the problems more than others in the country.
Politicians with blinders
January 15, 2008 - 11:59 ET by Wilbur747The sad thing is that politicians on both sides never come down here with open eyes (and minds) to see the trash, the number of "riders" on our freight trains, the broken budgets of hospitals, and the number of illegals who collect welfare and Social Security.
They only see (and say) what they think will help them get votes and not be called racists.
I have posted before
January 15, 2008 - 12:42 ET by DEVILDOCMOMthat I am an RN in a Tucson ER...the number of illegals in our ER has greatly increased in the last 5+ years. More and more come in who do not speak English OR need their school age children to translate.
There used to be a sign
January 15, 2008 - 13:26 ET by BDThere used to be a sign just south of me on a ranch that said:
"If Palominas were Scottsdale, the National Guard would have long ago sealed the border."
And it is fairly accurate. Guys like McCain are not interested in the havoc going n down here, only wha tis happening in the rich communities of former Californians (Scottsdale, Fountain Hills, etc)
On yet another side note...
January 15, 2008 - 14:03 ET by Wilbur747I wonder if there are any TRUE stats as to how many illegals die coming to get free handouts and other benefits?
As a locomotive engineer, I know that I have killed at least 13 when they try to get on the train coming north from Nogales to Tucson. I hit one last year waving me down trying to get me to stop. It's bad enough hitting and killing the occupants of a car the ran around the crossing gates, but I hate that because of bleeding heart libs and dems, their free handouts and instant citizenship policy making these people run across the border, that I'm face with killing people everytime I go to work.
I wrote to McCain's office about closing the borders and stopping the incentives to cross it, but it fell upon deaf ears. He's a RINO. I hate to vote for the lesser of two evils, but since Reagan is in heaven, I have no choice but to vote for McCain if it's him against any other dems.
I wonder if I can sue the DMC for mental and emotional stress for hitting these people?
BTW... I can't stop a train like you can a car. DON'T TRY TO BEAT A TRAIN OR GO AROUND THE GATES. It only take two minutes for a train to pass.
My wife...
January 15, 2008 - 13:45 ET by Wilbur747My wife is also an RN. She worked in PACU at TMC and El Dorado before it closed. There was talk of hiring only bilingual nurses, and naturally people began to wonder if their job/promotions would go to Spanish fluent nurses.
When it was brought up that monolinguistic RNs would gladly learn...provided TMC pay for classes and wages lost, somehow the idea fell by the wayside.
She now works for the VA and never has to worry about her lack of Spanish skills when it comes to her job. Vets all speak our national language.
In Sells, on the T O'H Nation's land, their hospitals are over run by illegals and they can't pay for their own people.
I just don't understand it. If I moved to Germany, I'd be quick to learn the national language.
As an American, I should not have to learn any immigrant's language...they should learn ours for the very reason you mentioned...health care and crime...and to become a true American
Agreed
January 15, 2008 - 14:30 ET by DEVILDOCMOMI often say to the illegals-WHO EXPECT ME TO SPEAK SPANISH-that they need to learn ENGLISH if they are going to live in the US. Of course, they look at me blankly or just shrug. Why should they learn when they do not have to for their free handouts. As far as payment...it is listed as "self pay", oh yeah, the You and I insurance.
I agree about learning the language, if I lived in another country, you can bet your bottom dollar I would learn and speak that language.
Yes, Sells really catches it, I know...
It's the left...
January 15, 2008 - 15:10 ET by Wilbur747It's the left that's the cause of our problems. You've seen it...go into any store and everything's in Spanish.
The city government insists that all documents must be bilingual. There's NO incentive to learn the native language of our country.
I truly sympathize with your situation. I don't know how you or my wife do it. I can only imagine what it's like to assess a patient, trying to ascertain their state when life hangs in the balance and all the can say is ?por que? (please disregard spelling, I'm an American).
I cannot do what you and my wife do. No way, no how.
Excellent point
January 14, 2008 - 15:14 ET by not_lima_HHow about a NYT study that shows the murder rate of those already willing to break border laws? Or how about the murder rate associated with old hippies that were fried on LCD (and now write for the times).
Like many of you, the first thing I have to do is question their motivation to do this report. Do they intend to start profiling vets in some way? Maybe we should force drugs on them. You know, like we do are children when they behave like anything other than a liberal puke.
Yet a new lie
January 14, 2008 - 13:50 ET by c5thenThe NYT and the left-wing America haters will tell this lie over and over to try and make everyone accept it since they've heard it so much.
Any US city with a population of 1.5 million would be trumpeting their "low crime rate" with only 121 murders over the last 4 years.
The day that "politician" became a career choice is the day we started losing the Republic. Let's get it back! Alan Keyes '08.
Nice post, WTH! In
January 14, 2008 - 13:56 ET by wiwfNice post, WTH! In CounterStrike lingo, you could say that the NYT just received a: HUMILIATION!!!!!1
The Rocky Mountain Collegian: Illustrating Idiocy
Why, indeed?
January 14, 2008 - 14:40 ET by richflanj"So, why the focus on vets that turn into murderers, NYTimes? What else could it be that they have a desire to slag out returning troops, making them seem to be victims?"
It is, in my opinion, just another example of the leftist template. In their minds, most American Sevicemen (exceptions being the "enlightened" - John Kerry, Oliver Stone, etc. ) are, and have always been, mindless murderers without the mental ability to overcome the desire to kill and keep killing.
FB, you're probably
January 14, 2008 - 15:28 ET by dabalFB, you're probably correct. Think about it this way...how would one actually dig up real statistics on murders by a group of veterans?
The only way this could be done is at considerable expense. With the glaring evidence that they didn't even bother to see if the murder rate among vets per capita was LOWER than the general population, how much stock can you put in their other "research"?
I think I'm going to be sick.
"Apparently, we are safer
January 14, 2008 - 15:50 ET by Cortillaen"Apparently, we are safer with our veterans around than we are with the rest of the citizenry of the country!" I don't think this should be news to anybody...
This actually prompted me to email the NYT demanding they add a comparison of the per capita murder rates for Iraq vets and civilians to "avoid being veteran-hating, lying scum" (I was trying to keep my cool). I don't expect any response or action from them, of course, but this kind of dishonesty, especially targeting american heroes, infuriates me. Does anyone have any other suggestions on how to respond to this outrage?
www.rhjunior.com Great comics with a hefty dose of Christian and anti-nutjob goodness.
"With your mind as high as Mt. Fuji you can see all things clearly. And you can see all the forces that shape events; not just the things near to you." -Miyamoto Musashi
I'm a combat vet
January 14, 2008 - 16:59 ET by SlicksterI live a normal life and have a wonderful family and detest violence but I would not hesitate to beat the authors of this garbage senseless. The morons who write this kind of shit are nothing more than cowards who enjoy the benefits of America at the expense of others. They aren't worth the dirt the on the bottom of my boots and would sell out their own familys to save themselves.
On the bright side, if and when I decide to go on a murderous rage I will bypass the post office and head for the nearest liberal magazine or newspaper office.
I got out of the Navy in
January 14, 2008 - 17:25 ET by nnptcgradI got out of the Navy in 2006. I did two tours to the gulf in 2003 and 05. The closest I got to the fighting was the middle of the gulf. I mean I stood watches, made sure the generators and all ran smoothly, etc., but nowhere near as much as the guys on the ground did, i.e. Army and Marines. I now work for a craft supply store (a.ka. Goofing Off). I chat with customers as I help them and once I told one of them I had been in the service. She looked at me and said "Oh, well, I'm glad to see you are adjusting to outside life so well."
I considered this, "outside life" and the way she said it made it sound like she expected me to be crazed or something so I decided to play a bit. I replied "Yes, I was in the Navy on the U.S.S Nimitz. I worked in the reactor department with the nuclear propulsion. It was interesting. Especially the reactor compartment. It was like a giant , white-painted, radioactive jungle gym. It was fun!" and I smiled at her.
She looked at me strangely as I handed her her bags. It was fun.
Mother nature is a bitch - Ninth Corollary of Murphy's Law
My two sons served in Iraq
January 14, 2008 - 18:04 ET by rbosqueMy two sons served in Iraq and my brother was in Baghdad. Despite the encounters with the enemy, they are all fine. The MSM on the other hand can use A LOT of therapy.
Actually, it appears it is
January 14, 2008 - 22:23 ET by R D HelmActually, it appears it is the NYT that is actually on a "downward spiral."
This is beyond dispicable. Even for the NYT.
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. -J.W. von Goethe
I wonder how many of those 121 are even real murders.
January 14, 2008 - 23:40 ET by ZapI read the first one. The veteran was definitely messed up by his experience, but his "crime" was shooting two armed gang members who confronted him in an ally and OPENED FIRE on him. The fact that he was even arrested shows how screwed up our laws are.
I read another one where a guy killed his mistress because she threatened to kill his family when he got called away again. Sounds like a pretty routine homocide to me, nothing to indicate that his service did anything to trigger him to kill.
I can see that this anti
January 15, 2008 - 01:11 ET by jdhawkI can see that this anti military propaganda is working for the NYT. On a bouyant day on Wall Street, the NYT managed to go down 1.4% in price. It is trading at a 52-week low.
Perhaps, instead of doing articles on one of the LEAST likely demographics to commit crimes of any sort in our country, the NYT should do articles on illegal aliens and the myriad crimes they commit on a regular basis.
I have read that 30% of the jails in California are filled with illegal aliens. I have read that illegal aliens regularly commit offenses in the United States and then evade capture by fleeing to Mexico. The Mexican government offers little assistance in these matters. In fact, if it is a capital crime and the state that the alleged criminal is being extradited to mets out the death penalty, the Mexican government refuses to extradite.
Sorry to say, but it's true
January 15, 2008 - 11:52 ET by vaboxrboyMy dad is a decorated veteran from both Vietnam and the first Gulf War. He was one of the men who served without incident, but I have seen with my own eyes men crack up and do everything from walking around naked in full daylight for no reason to beating their families to the point of being put in the hospital.
I don't think the article was meant to victimize the returning solidiers, but more to point out that we all need to reach out and make sure they get the support and care that they need.
Most of you with good sense know that we aren't spitting on men in uniform when we see them. We should all be aware that they have experienced things that we can never imagine.
My father, who is now in his mid sixties, is just now getting to where he can tell me about the horrors of what he saw. Trust me, these are stories you never want to hear. So instead of being petty about the paper we are supposed to hate, look at the big picture and how you can help a vet and his/her family.
Sentimental statement
January 15, 2008 - 12:49 ET by AgnosticI would agree with you that your statement is a very valid interpretation of the intent of this article. On the other hand I believe they also publish Ted Rall and stand behind his 'satiric wit'.
Many of us who posted
January 15, 2008 - 13:29 ET by DEVILDOCMOMare either vets or family members of veterans AND I see a totally different view of this than you do. I see support on this site and on this post for veterans. As I posted earlier my son served in Iraq and saw combat. He was out on patrols daily. To me, the old media is making negative comments about our veterans; that is what angers me.
My husband and all his brothers were Vietnam area veterans; thank your Dad for his service.
I have seen MANY people
January 15, 2008 - 13:41 ET by BDI have seen MANY people "Crack up" but on average most were not veterans, and if the data is to be believed, it effects veterans LESS than it does the rest of the general population.
BD, I don't have the
January 15, 2008 - 13:44 ET by LeonBD,
I don't have the stats, but I think it would be interesting to examine what percentage of the homeless population in America is comprised of Veterans.
My feeling is that they make up a significant portion of the homeless population.
Again, I have nothing to back this up except with my daily experience (and who knows how many of them are truly vets), but I'll bet this is something that shelters and homeless action groups track.
Leon, most all of the
January 15, 2008 - 13:58 ET by bassndudeLeon, most all of the homeless claim to be vets. Most were never fit for duty, and if they had tried to join, would have been refused. Homeless shelters and action groups track only what they are told by the homeless and assume that a drug addicted alcholic will tell them the truth. My son worked at the jail as a deputy sheriff. All the homeless they brought in claimed to be vets but on closer inspection, (after all, they do check their IDs and back grounds), he only found one (1) that was really a vet. And he wasent a combat vet. He was kicked out after a year for drugs. So going from that, I think your way off in your thinking.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass, I doubt shelters
January 15, 2008 - 14:02 ET by LeonBass,
I doubt shelters take homeless people at their word, especially given the fact that most of them suffer from mental illness.
So your answer is that we don't know. I think we do. I just don't know where to find it.
Again, your favorite use of anecdotal evidence doesn't do much for me in terms of analysis.
Leon,
January 15, 2008 - 14:07 ET by AgnosticYour right of course but the shelters don't have a lot of resources for running backgrounds and checking up on people. I would hope they are using the money donated by the people and any grant money they receive to take care of people and not to do independant studies.
I just told you Leon. You
January 15, 2008 - 14:08 ET by bassndudeI just told you Leon. You can check with the ss office stats. Also the Sheriff departments keep records on this stuff. All you need to do is look. And your admission that most suffer from mental illness is proof for you. The military dosent take mentaly disabled or those mentaly disturbed. And Basic normaly weeds them out if they manage to get through the selection process. So by your own logic, most cant be vets.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Bass: Something I have
January 15, 2008 - 16:23 ET by BDBass:
Something I have always wondered was, that since the military screened personnel during draft induction and removed those who were prone to mental illness, and the Anti-Vietnam Peace Groups did not....
...How much larger of a percentage of the Anti-war protestors were later found to be insane in comparison to the actual Vietnam Vets.?
Somebody could get a PHD thesis paper out of that one.....
LOL BD! Thats a great
January 15, 2008 - 16:28 ET by bassndudeLOL BD! Thats a great thought. If I ever decide to finish my degree, I will use that on my papers. I do belive that the majority of the anti-war protesters are on disability today, due to post tramatic drug syndrome. Other wise known as bad trip.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
You are correct about hte
January 15, 2008 - 16:39 ET by BDYou are correct about hte drug trips. If the analysis is ever performed, I am certain you will find that a higher percentage of those at Woodstock died of overdoses years later than soldiers dispatched to Vietnam dying from enemy fire.
It is certain that of the ACTS at Woodstock this is an accurate assessment. (Janis Joplin, Hendrix, et al.)
BD,That is not as clear
January 15, 2008 - 16:59 ET by LeonBD,
That is not as clear cut as you think.
Who do you think brought all that heroin over here?
Drug usage in Vietnam was a major problem.
In 1969, nearly half the cases tried by the Marine Corps in Vietnam involved marijuana possession.
In the same year, the military was forced to develop a drug rehabilitation center at Cua Vet to handle the ever increasing number of drug users in infantry battalions.
Once the military started to crack down on weed, the soldiers simply switched to heroin, which was easily available.
1970 - 1,146 arrests of US troops in Vietnam for hard drug usage
1971 - 7,026 arrests, Army Medical officers estimated approx 10 - 15% of all lower ranking enlisted US troops were heroin users
In 1971 - 15 - 20% of all GI's in the Mekong Delta were heroin users under Army Major General John Cushman.
Soldiers in Vietnam were using drugs in much higher proportions than the American public.
And guess what? They brought it home with them, the drugs and their addictions.
So your assertion is most likely way off. I'd bet more soldiers died of overdose than those at Woodstock.
1.) Heroin is not a
January 15, 2008 - 17:17 ET by BDThe point was that More Woodstock fans died of Overdoses than Vietnam Vets died from hostile fire. I think that is essentially likely.
1.) Heroin is not a product from Vietnam/Cambodia as much as the area west of there (Western Burma, Northwestern Thailand, Afghanistan etc). I am sure you will realize that Black Tar quickly became available as it became the fashionable drug of choice of the moronic set. Not aying that Heroin was not available, but was likely overstated.
2.) Marijuana was a problem, but it was mirrored in the states as well so that is a wash. OJ's (Marijuana dipped in Opium) was an unusual problem for Vietnam Theater. But was mirrored by the cocaine of south america.
3.) When normalized for age and sex, drug use in the military was not spectacualrly out of wack incomparison to the rest of society.
4.) Since we know that at least 2 of the lead acts at Woodstock suffered from fatal overdoses (Of what, fifteen acts? - that equals one in seven. Did one in seven GI's suffer fatal overdoses?
Addendum to #4. Let us say that 15,000 fans viewed Woodstock. how many of those 15,000 died from fatal overdoses up to ten years later? Compare this to the 8.2 million Vietnam Era veterans and I will BET that the Vietnam Era Veterans had a smaller percentage of fatal overdoses than the Woodstock fans.
1. I saw a poster today at
January 15, 2008 - 17:20 ET by JasonC1. I saw a poster today at my gym of a guy holding a pistol to his tied-off arm. The text of the poster said "It's called 'shooting up' for a reason." Q1: Whoa, did I just step into a 1985 Nancy Reagan-sponsored ad? Q2: Who uses heroin and goes to the gym. Those strike me as mutually-exclusive activities.
2. OJs sound awesome.
3. Not surprising.
4 (plus addendum). 500,000 people attended Woodstock. Two deaths were recorded at the event.
"He was, and is yet, most likely, the wearisomest, self-righteous
pharisee that ever ransacked a Bible to rake the promises to himself
and fling the curses on his neighbors." -Emily Bronte