NYT: Kevorkian Was 'Fiercely Principled'
At the New York Times yesterday (appearing on the front page in today's print edition), Keith Schneider's Jack Kevorkian obituary described the late assisted suicide practitioner as "fiercely principled."
An advanced search on that term (in quotes) indicates that the Old Gray Lady has only used it to describe a real human being one other time since 1981, in reference to composer Peter Maxwell Davies in January 2009. The same Times search done on 1851-1980 comes up empty. Think of all the eminently nobler and saintly people who have passed through this life during the past 160 years. Not one of them was ever described by the Times as "fiercely principled" during their lives or after their deaths. Amazing.
Additionally, the Times has had some difficulty adequately describing the nature of Kevorkian's "accomplishments." In the obit's window title and currently at the paper's home page, Kevorkian is headlined only as someone who "backed assisted suicide." The story's actual headline at the web obit and in today's print edition is still somewhat non-descriptive: "Dr. Jack Kevorkian Dies at 83; A Doctor Who Helped End Lives."
Schneider outrageously gives Kevorkian partial credit for spurring the growth of hospice care and heightening doctors' sensitivities to patients' pain. I'm not kidding. Additionally, the obituary's content will leave many readers with the mistaken impression that all of Doctor Death's victims were terminally ill. They weren't.
Here are several of the most offensive paragraphs from Schneider's odious obit (bolds and numbered tags are mine):
Dr. Jack Kevorkian, the medical pathologist who willfully helped dozens of terminally ill people end their lives, becoming the central figure in a national drama surrounding assisted suicide, died on Friday in Royal Oak., Mich. He was 83.
... In arguing for the right of the terminally ill to choose how they die, [1] Dr. Kevorkian challenged social taboos about disease and dying while defying prosecutors and the courts. He spent eight years in prison after being convicted of second-degree murder in the death of the last of about 130 ailing patients [1] whose lives he had helped end, beginning in 1990.
Originally sentenced in 1999 to 10 to 25 years in a maximum security prison, he was released after assuring the authorities that he would never conduct another assisted suicide.
His critics were as impassioned as his supporters, but all generally agreed that his stubborn and often intemperate advocacy of assisted suicide helped spur the growth of hospice care in the United States and made many doctors more sympathetic to those in severe pain and more willing to prescribe medication to relieve it. [2]
... In Oregon, where a schoolteacher had become Dr. Kevorkian’s first assisted suicide patient, state lawmakers in 1997 approved a statute making it legal for doctors to prescribe lethal medications to help terminally ill patients end their lives. In 2006 the United States Supreme Court upheld a lower court ruling that found that Oregon’s Death With Dignity Act protected assisted suicide as a legitimate medical practice.
During the period that Oregon was considering its law, Dr. Kevorkian’s confrontational strategy gained wide publicity, which he actively sought. National magazines put his picture on their covers, and he drew the attention of television programs like “60 Minutes.” His nickname, Dr. Death, and his self-made suicide machine, which he variously called the “Mercitron” or the “Thanatron,” became fodder for late-night television comedians.
In 2010 his story was dramatized in the HBO movie “You Don’t Know Jack,” starring Al Pacino as Dr. Kevorkian. Mr. Pacino received Emmy and Golden Globe awards for his performance. In his Emmy acceptance speech, he said he had been gratified to “try to portray someone as brilliant and interesting and unique” as Dr. Kevorkian. Dr. Kevorkian, who was in the audience, smiled in appreciation.
... Jack Lessenberry, a prominent Michigan journalist who covered Dr. Kevorkian’s one-man campaign, wrote in The Detroit Metro Times: “Jack Kevorkian, faults and all, was a major force for good in this society. He forced us to pay attention to one of the biggest elephants in society’s living room: the fact that today vast numbers of people are alive who would rather be dead, who have lives not worth living.” [4]
... Fiercely principled and equally inflexible, he rarely dated and never married. [3] He lived a penurious life, eating little, avoiding luxury and dressing in threadbare clothing that he often bought at the Salvation Army.
Notes:
- [1] -- It is a historical fact that at least a couple of those who committed suicide with Kevorkian's assistance were not terminally ill. Additionally, Schneider identifies Doctor Death's first victim as "Janet Adkins, an Oregon teacher who suffered from Alzheimer’s disease." Ronald Reagan lived almost 10 years after his Alzheimer's was identified. Schneider "cleverly" dodges this inconvenient truth about the health of Kevorkian's patient by describing his advocacy as relating to "the terminally ill" while characterizing his handiwork as involving "ailing patients" who, as noted, were not always terminally ill. Many if not most readers won't catch Schneider's weaselly, disgraceful distinction.
- [2] -- If "all generally agreed" that Kevorkian "helped spur the growth of hospice care" and " made many doctors more sympathetic to those in severe pain," why didn't the Times writer quote anyone to that effect? It would appear that "all generally agreed" might in this case really mean "I believe."
- [3] -- Ah yes, the euthanasia theme song, "life not worth living."
- [4] -- As noted in earlier paragraphs, the Times has applied the term "fiercely principled to a real human being only one other time in 160-plus years.
In the annals of historical revisionism, Kevorkian's Times obit is a definite Hall of Shame contender.
Cross-posted at BizzyBlog.com.
- Tom Blumer's blog
- Login to post comments
Comments
When was the last time
Submitted by motherbelt on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 11:33am.
When was the last time someone like Rick Santorum or any other pro-life advocate was described as fiercely principled?
I guess some principles are more worthy than others.
To the Times ...
Submitted by Tom Blumer on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 1:02pm.
... Santorum is fiercely inflexible.
And being fiercely inflexible
Submitted by motherbelt on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 5:02pm.
And being fiercely inflexible is a compliment in Kevorkian's case, whereas in Santorum's it's a criticism.
I suppose Hitler was "... Fiercely principled...
Submitted by Red Jeep on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 11:33am.
...and equally inflexible..." That's not necessarily a good trait.
Yes sir fascists, communists, and socialists
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 7:29pm.
all believe in sterilization and population control. This may upset some liberals on here but their heroes Chairman Mao and Stalin both used this method more than Hilter.
Kevorkian did not help the cause of physician assisted suicide.
Submitted by The Vet on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 11:46am.
Of Kevorkian’s patients, only 25% were “terminally ill”...
+++
Still others are concerned about his macabre paintings and interest in experimentation on prisoners on death row. Some worry that his antics scare people who would otherwise favor lawful aid in dying. Timothy Quill, a respected palliative-care physician who has written extensively on physician aid in dying--his account in the New England Journal of Medicine several years ago about his helping a patient die was widely publicized--has called Kevorkian a "maniac."
+++
In March 1997, The Detroit Free Press's team of journalists and researchers published an extensive analysis of the people who went to Kevorkian. When "The Suicide Machine" ran, the official body count stood at 47.
Among the findings reported in "The Suicide Machine":
17 of the 47 could have lived indefinitely.
13 of the 47 had no pain complaints.
32 of the 47 were women
+++
...Kevorkian appearing in the current New England Journal of Medicine. The "new" finding was that the majority of people who died at Kevorkian's hands weren't terminally ill.
+++
In 2000, an article in the New England Journal of Medicine documented that most of the people who died at Kevorkian's hands were women with disabilities, and not terminally ill, contrary to popular misconceptions created by Kevorkian and his allies. Instead, people who went to Kevorkian were disabled people in social and emotional crisis.
+++
At least you are capable of
Submitted by Anniee451 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 6:17am.
At least you are capable of making distinctions - I don't oppose people's right to their bodies, or a doctor's right to assist people who are very much in trouble and pain to carry out a decision that they make. But no, that doesn't make Kevorkian a hero, and there are certainly things with him that were of concern and could harm that from becoming a reality.
By the same token if I have MS and I'm not going to die anytime soon (so far as anyone knows) and am suffering this "disability" it's still my decision, and you can bet that years of physical agony do put a person in emotional crisis; they have the right to make their decisions as well. The guy didn't go around with a rogue needle seeking people to slaughter at random. The way these disability activists put it, he just casually slaughtered a disabled person for no good reason; I'm glad I know this, since as a disabled person myself I might have mistakenly pulled with these groups. Now I know better.
You're the one that is clueless and can't make a distinction.
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 7:50pm.
All you have done is restate the same bull crap in support of suicide.
If you want to kill yourself that's your business. Unfortunately people do it all the time. And to act like you're the only one that has to deal with an illness is self serving and it comes across as false, even if true. If you have a great attitude about life you can normally deal with it when times get tough. However your logic or lack thereof is to choose the easy way out and just terminate life. So if anyone is being hypocritical, insensitive, and quite frankly ignorant it's you.
The fact that you keep regurgitating the same ridiculous argument over and over again is merely immature. Taking a life is wrong so again "deal with it!"
Conservative Nannys
Submitted by ajkrik on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 1:24pm.
None of these people were forced. Kevorkian did time. Otherwise it's none of you business what I choose to do with my body. Plenty of physicians prescribe overdoses of morphine to let patients kill themselves.
All these conservative nanny-staters should get together with all the liberal nanny-staters and form a club . . . oh, wait there is one, it's the US government.
Troll Whineys
Submitted by The Vet on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 1:30pm.
None of these trolls were forced to come here. But they do, and they do whine a lot.
Gotta love these liberal trolls who said it's okay for
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 7:02pm.
people to do with their bodies as they "choose." Hmmm so then these same hypocrits cry and whine about the police not helping people trying to commit suicide like the situation in San Francisco recently. And if saving someone's life from someone else, i.e. murder, is a "nanny" state mentality i'll take it. It's funny to hear a liberal post about a nanny state in the US considering they support the first and apologize about the latter.
Not everyone who disagrees
Submitted by Anniee451 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 6:04am.
Not everyone who disagrees with you on a single issue is a troll, whining, or a leftist. Sometimes they simply disagree with you. Deal with it.
And based on what do you say it's the same people complaining about the cops "not helping" a suicide attempter that do not think Kevorkian was necessarily a murderer, or that people have a right to their own bodies? I'd say anyone who stages a grand elaborate "suicide" stunt is an attention whore who should be put in jail for disrupting the peace, not someone who is at death's door and wants to go out with some dignity.
Jeez, make some freaking distinctions; sometimes conservatives are as bad as the left with the utter thoughtlessness and lack of distinctions and false rhetoric.
Not everyone that disagrees with you insults you as well.
Submitted by The Vet on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 6:58am.
...conservative nanny-staters...
If I were to insult a race, I would be racist. Insult a gender, mysoginist. Insult a religion, anti-catholic. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Why is it ok to insult a polical group?
Look. I disagreed with you and did not insult you or what group you are in.
Liberals insult people when they don't get their way!
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 7:20pm.
So "deal with it" as this troll puts it. They are so high morally that when someone outlives it's usefulness they terminate it.
They just give it a comfy sounding name like euthanasia or assisted suicide for murdering adults, or pro-choice for killing babies who can defend themselves in the womb, or more recently end of life counseling which are death panels foe old people who cost too much.
They always seem to want to kill someone who is innocent and not a criminal or a terrorist.
You're both addressing the
Submitted by Anniee451 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 7:51pm.
You're both addressing the wrong person. I didn't say anything about nanny-staters; that was another poster. I said I didn't agree and that doesn't make me a troll and it sure as HELL doesn't make me a leftist. There are plenty of things we agree on; this one we don't.
If you could read in a comprehensive manner
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 10:12pm.
you would see that I didn't address you as a nanny stater in the post you referenced. I was addressing someone else before you starting spewing your garbage throughout this blog. But please don't bother taking your own advice by replying to something you haven't even "read."
Are you wanting to continue with getting humiliated like this? The war of ideas has been decided. You have lost in a bad way with no dignity for which you profess in the defense of death. Oops I'm sorry I mean assisted suicide. You're like shooting fish in a barrel as are the rest of your ilk!
You're not capable of
Submitted by Anniee451 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:10am.
You're not capable of humiliating me; only lying about me. It's only by falsely calling me a leftist that you can pretend you've scored any points, fool.
You don't need my help being humiliated you
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 11:53am.
continue to do that all on your own. And one can call themself anything they want but how they act is evidence enough. By the way, no curse words? It seems like you forgot your garbage mouth.
And I will retort that when you act like a troll you will be
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 7:38pm.
called out for it so as you put it "deal with it." It's just like a POS liberal to throw out the silly argument one person murdering someone is somehow the same as suicide regardless of how you put it. Saying one form of suicide is acceptable makes zero sense if that's your defense which is piss poor and childish at best. So in your great enlightenment if you choose to kill yourself no one will stop you. How ridiculous and very trollish behavior. So either "deal with it" or go back to some liberal blog. It's your "choice."
Just like a liberal always trying to silence the opposition but whines like a little child when someone challenges them. Your rebuttal only proves my point so again the joke is on you!
Ahhh, tell the people above
Submitted by Anniee451 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 7:58pm.
Ahhh, tell the people above how I'm a "liberal POS" (lol - yes, a Classical Liberal - if you know what that means) and remind them that it's not nice to insult people who haven't insulted you.
You know what else isn't nice? Lying about people. I'm NOT what you accuse me of being and all your whaaaaaaambulances in the world will not make me a leftist. Although it does certainly underscore what I said about conservatives sometimes being just as bad as the left if someone steps outside the tiny box. Well again, deal with it. I hate the left, I'm quite educated on free market economics and common law justice as well as the constitution, and I'm a Tea Party Patriot who can't wait to vote for Sarah Palin. Don't tell me - you like Huckabee? Mittens? You're a one-issue voter?
Pfft.
No worry- when I dip a toe into a leftist site to call them out on some particularly egregious BS, I get treated like shit same as I do here. So rest easy - outside of intelligent circles, I get it from all sides ;)
If it quacks like a duck it's
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 8:04pm.
If it quacks like a duck it's probably a duck. If you're not why so defensive?
Ah, the old "must be true or
Submitted by Anniee451 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:10am.
Ah, the old "must be true or he/she wouldn't get mad about it". Baloney. I HATE leftism; and being equated with them when I hate them to my core pisses me off. But you've adopted their non-debate techniques well enough. Triangulate, make false accusations then knock down straw men - typical leftist arguments. Not surprising; when people don't understand why they believe what they believe, that's what happens.
Keep those easy answers coming, though! You know it all.
Ahhh when one is caught with their hand in the cookie jar
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 11:55am.
use the old adage of blaming someone else for your own shortcomings. Your useless pride is your downfall.
Oh Really?
Submitted by stratman on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 8:24pm.
How many would that be? Based on what source(s)?
I think someone has been watching too many liberal movie
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 2:29am.
versions of the Vietnam War. They always have scenes of euthanasia via morphine overdose. But hey it's just a nanny state mentality if you want people to live according to the troll's logic, for lack of a better word
So his source maybe an IMDB link to Platoon or Dead Presidents;)
There are some cases
Submitted by Anniee451 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 6:21am.
There are some cases specifically mentioned in here - by doctors and clergy. http://www.assistedsuicide.org/suicide_laws.html They are not American. It's not an easy thing to regulate either way, and dismissing it with a laugh about IMDB and movies is ludicrous.
The first case mentioned is ironically about a woman who'd suffered the agony of MS for 20 years. Heaven forfend a doctor should agree to assist her in dying peacefully instead of letting her shoot herself or something. I mean, that's just insane.
But some of you have an easy answer for everything, don't you? No, I'm not a leftist nor a whining troll. But it's an easy answer so go with it.
Ah. Mentioning a woman.
Submitted by The Vet on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 7:00am.
Most of Kevorkian's victims were women.
The question is whether they were conservative or liberal
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 7:10pm.
women. Liberal women do not recognize conservative women as relevant so have it Dr. Death!
Even leftist feminists do not
Submitted by Anniee451 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 8:01pm.
Even leftist feminists do not recognize either conservative or libertarian women as relevant. They're happy to throw both under the bus at every turn.
But apparently some conservative women and men are ready to throw other conservative or libertarian women under the bus just the same by falsely accusing them of being leftists if they dare disagree on any point. So don't be too quick to claim the high ground there.
Gah, get me back to the sane, intelligent conservatives; this place never changes. How are the writers so intelligent and talented and informative and the posters such ninnies?
Oh boo hoo you pick a fight
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 8:04pm.
Oh boo hoo you pick a fight and then cry about it!
Death is never easy and you definitely
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 7:06pm.
are not going to convince me what a murderer did was a good thing. If there is not such an easy answer why do liberal trolls like yourself who disguise themselves as conservative believe that suicide is such an easy choice? You seem to want make light of life like you all do with terminating babies and it's a gift So try to restate your b.s. and left wing ideology all you want, however as you can see it won't wash here.
You can act like this criminal is some kind of hero that's your choice. However it's my choice to say your wrong as there is no other way to be but on the side of life. Anything else is extremely sadistic. I truly think your liberal hero enjoyed his job way too much. He enjoyed ending people's lives. The proof is in the pudding comrade.
Oh You've GOT to be shitting me
Submitted by Anniee451 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 7:48pm.
"are not going to convince me what a murderer did was a good thing."
Again, "murder". Murder and assisted suicide are not necessarily the same thing. But you have the answers. Not that I'm trying to convince you; you have your mind made up and will until or unless you find yourself in dire straits.
"If there is not such an easy answer why do liberal trolls like yourself who disguise themselves as conservative believe that suicide is such an easy choice?"
HOLY FALSE ASSUMPTIONS AND ACCUSATIONS, BATMAN!
#1, I'm NO leftist; no matter how easy it is for you to put me in that ludicrous box with the leftist assholes I loathe. If it makes you feel better, I guess; but you are a fool.
#2 WHO the hell said ANY of this was easy? Unlike you I acknowledge that the problems AND the solutions are NOT easy in ANY circumstance. I don't pretend to have things wrapped up in a neat little package like you do in your black and white world. You ask me about economics and I can give you answers without much effort; I study and I know what works and doesn't. (Hint: free markets, low and/or flat taxes, common law, minimal government.) Ask me about homeschooling and I can give you facts all day long. Ask me about the failing of feminism and I can go on another day. Or ten. There are any number of subjects this holds true for. Sound Christian theology - I can do that; with solid biblical exegesis. But you put up one of the most complicated and personal and variable type of situation possible, with a veritable maze of legal implications on both sides, and it's only you and your ilk who have instant, pat, one-syllable answers for it. I sure hope everything isn't that simple in your world, because not only would it be boring, it'd be dangerous as hell. Do you examine anything you believe?
"You seem to want make light of life like you all do with terminating babies and it's a gift So try to restate your b.s. and left wing ideology all you want, however as you can see it won't wash here."
I've been here a long time and I've been in the movement probably longer than you've been ALIVE. I just don't talk much here because so many have such insufferable arrogance and ignorance like yourself.
Who the HELL told you I was pro-abortion? What the HELL would make you think something ridiculous like that? I have legitimate questions on the subject regarding government's role, BUT I recognize abortion as the slaughter of an innocent baby, you freaking cretinous accuser. You want to LIE about me, DON'T F**ING PICK THAT ONE. Damn you.
"You can act like this criminal is some kind of hero that's your choice."
So you haven't read a word I've said. Yet you still start right up with accusations. Wow, what a genius you must be. Yes, I've lionized the guy; yep, that's exactly what I've done. If you ever learn how to make distinctions, get back to me. You're a fool.
"However it's my choice to say your wrong as there is no other way to be but on the side of life."
Yeah, and maybe it's not your damn decision to make for ANOTHER ADULT. YOU decide whatever you want and maybe, just maybe, someone else can make their OWN decisions.
"Anything else is extremely sadistic. I truly think your liberal hero enjoyed his job way too much. He enjoyed ending people's lives. The proof is in the pudding comrade."
Yes, my fascist friend, he DID seem to enjoy his work too much. Who the hell denied that? Not me; not even close. On the other hand, people who were desperate didn't have many others to ask or discuss it with; and they went to him. Maybe if they had had other doctors they could have discussed it with openly, they could have been given other options and some might actually have chosen those other options and be alive today. But there was no one else who would even CONSIDER one that they felt was extremely important (understandably, since there is a criminal charge involved) so they couldn't have the open discussion with a doctor who was prepared to offer a few different possibilities, along with more encouragement. And as long as fools like you make damn sure they NEVER have that option, that possibility of discussion, they'll always turn to the next doctor death instead. Good work, you inhumane bastard.
By the way don't bother
Submitted by Anniee451 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 7:48pm.
By the way don't bother replying to me again unless you actually read what I've written. Until then you are just making an ass of yourself.
Oh yes dear comrade leader please order me around
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 8:01pm.
Once again you've regurgitated the same liberal lies. And now like a true nasty liberal you add insults. What are you going to do call the nanny state police on me? Should I expect a knock on my door?
You keep proving my point by posting your ridiculous assertions of facts ahem... that you probably copied and pasted from howtodie.com.
You know you're losing when you can't actually defend your point with facts and then try to make the opposition seem uneducated. I bet you believe in the land of unicorns too!
This I'm going to take my ball and leave attitude is clearly expected from a whiner like yourself.
Once again you didn't read a
Submitted by Anniee451 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 8:01pm.
Once again you didn't read a word. I owe you not the slightest consideration, fool. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and responded; I won't do it twice. Fuck off.
Yes I did as you pointed out
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 8:10pm.
Yes I did as you pointed out that your age has something to do with my posts. Even if you are older than your posts are as emotional as a three year old.
Someone has got a case of childish potty mouth. You don't like it "deal with it!"
Phweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Submitted by The Vet on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 9:00pm.
I hear hissing steam. Did someone just pop a rivet?
And another thing to add fuel to the fire
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 9:59pm.
who knew you were so adamant about death that you would defend it so vehemently. Calling someone a fascist is never done by liberals no not at all. And speaking of, how am I a fascist by definition? I just want you to try to explain your self righteous smarmy liberal butt out of this. You've lost this debate so bad but the sad fact is that you documented your stupidity as well. How moronic but not too surprising!
Actually I'm not adamant
Submitted by Anniee451 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:15am.
Actually I'm not adamant about death; unlike you I acknowledge the issue is quite complicated and rife with problems on all sides.
Keep the easy answers coming, though. It would be amusing if it weren't so sad, and if I didn't know that it's thoughtless people even on my OWN side who will be putting in the next administration.
"oh you conservatives are so mean"
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 11:59am.
who's side are you on again? From what I recollect conservatives are on the side of life? Life is much harder to deal with over the long haul than death as death is final. I guess your assisted suicide friends failed to mention that to you.
Uh oh. Someone is gettng a nasty case of the Butt Hurts.
Submitted by The Vet on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 8:55pm.
...don't bother replying to me again unless you actually read what I've written...
I just did. I ain't reading your six page book report Chief. You, the anonymous poster, want to be read - Keep it short and make it count. Otherwise, don't expect anyone here to read your screed. WE ARE NOT BEING PAID FOR THIS.
~Who knew mamabear had an evil twin?
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 8:58pm.
.
Yep. Just as long winded.
Submitted by The Vet on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 9:02pm.
And twice the pressure. Popping rivets so soon. Oh my.
~It's not as much fun when they blow that easily
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 9:09pm.
There's nothing left to look forward to when they melt down in three posts or less. The corn isn't even done popping yet!
Well, I for one am convinced.
Submitted by Radical1979 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 10:34pm.
With all that cursing and all I'd say annie won that argument. Can't refute all those hells and damns. The f&^% off, that was a classy touch.
Lol Rad and I think you're right
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:43am.
Annie had me at hello;)
Then don't reply with idiotic
Submitted by Anniee451 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:16am.
Then don't reply with idiotic false accusations, chief. So, you disappointed Suckabee dropped out? I'm not; waiting for Sarah to throw in her hat ;) Or a dark horse, perhaps.
Yeah I guess he should have never responded to your idiotic
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 12:04pm.
defense of the original post. What a hypocrite! Oh you're getting picked on better control someone to eff off! What a loser response!
whoopidoodles.
Submitted by The Vet on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 12:56pm.
A certain cursy someone that was whining of straw men here on this page throws out a red herring about Huckabee. To paraphrase Dilbert - Where did you learn to argue? On the internet?
PS: What false accusation? I ain't accused you of anything. Might wanna seperate all the people that replied to your order not to reply.
Most physicians do NOT prescribe for THAT purpose.
Submitted by drsamherman on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 7:12pm.
I have no doubt that some of my professional brothers and sisters will write such prescriptions, but they are an extremely small minority. As I have stated before, the central tenet of medical ethics is do no harm (primum non nocere)--whether by act of commission (willingly) or omission (willful ignorance).
I ask you to please refrain from making such blanket statements about the medical profession unless supported by solid, published research. Physicians have their own deeply held beliefs and opinions, but upon entering the profession are required to check those at the door and to follow professional ethics, standards of practice and applicable laws and regulations.
This may well be true. If it
Submitted by Anniee451 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 8:12pm.
This may well be true. If it is, what's the threat in not criminalizing the activity then? I mean, if doctors are all so dedicated to preservation of life at all costs and never assisting in a PAS, how does it hurt to decriminalize or legalize it? What would anyone be afraid of? That somebody's going to spend 4 years in college, 3 in med school, years in residency, and X time in pursuit of a specialty just for the thrill of legally assisting in the suicide of a terminally ill or otherwise suffering patient? I mean, really, are hordes of people going to do that? When they could just kill someone now and not go through 10 or 12 years of bother? Or are people afraid there are doctors who will not agree with the "life at all costs" position and that some think causing no harm is also part of easing the suffering of a patient in relentless pain in any way they can? Is it that big a threat if the code of honor is so inviolate?
I am pretty sure my doctor would never do it; he is a Christian and I just rather doubt he would. There are others I believe would. (If it were not illegal, I mean, obviously.) In all likelihood I would stick with my doctor; I love him. Though I will say if it were not illegal, doctors unwilling to do it would have more incentive to GENUINELY and EFFECTIVELY treat their patients horrific and ongoing pain. Right now they don't have much reason; we have to suffer until we die naturally or devise some other way, right? What if they knew the possibility were there and they want to help their patients stay alive so they were finally freed to really ease that pain? Without worrying about someone becoming addicted to something on their freaking deathbeds? I should think it would be rather nice.
Are you a health care professional?
Submitted by drsamherman on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 9:39pm.
Do you have any idea how our professional ethics are ingrained into us from day one? "Do no harm" means exactly what it says - death is harm by any legal or ethical standards that exist for any profession, not just health care. What you are asking is that health care professionals put their personal opinions over their common ethical standards, which is something that being a professional means you do not do. There are some boundaries over which we will not step. Ethical standards are not 'codes of honor' - they are standards which define a profession and do not change based solely on whatever popular whim is breezing by in the press.
A major factor that complicates your entire argument is that pain is innately subjective, and physicians and other health care professionals have spent years trying to categorize, describe and codify it using common reference points. Problem is--we can't. What is minor pain to one person is major pain to another. Another factor your overlook is who exactly is deciding what the quality of life is? Are YOU in a position to define it? Is some group able to define it? Medicine has struggled with the definition of "quality of life" since its inception too far back in history to accurately date. You have talked about quality of life and pain, yet there are zero commonly accepted standards for these despite millenia of debate.
You seem to overlook the fact that physicians can only advance what is good for the patient, e.g. to sustain life. Simultaneously, we can only provide treatments to which the patient or authorized representative has consented. In the event the consent is withheld, we cannot proceed. The fine print is in that choice. If the patient or authorized representative tells us to withhold treatment, then we will do so provided it is in a written manner as prescribed by law. May I also ask who is left to deal with the aftermath? It is the family, friends and loved ones who are often left wondering why the deceased chose to take his/her own life. What do you say to those people? Having dealt with too many suicides in my psychiatry practice over the years, the impact of suicide on a family can be far more devastating than could be described. Are you going to have a government bureaucrat dealing with the family and loved ones too?
Don't expect American health care professionals to embrace professionally-assisted suicide within their ethical codes any time soon. Nearly every professional organization has consistently held that "do no harm" precludes this, and generation after generation has abided by that first and most important principle.
State legislatures provided for advanced directives and durable powers of attorney precisely to relieve health care professionals of having to make a choice so ethically repugnant to them. I don't know once instance where a professional licensing regulatory agency has disagreed. There are existing means to provide comfort to those patients who are in the end of life phase. Try researching the hospice movement. End of life care is the very reason those angels exist.
Doctor, you will please note
Submitted by Anniee451 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:19am.
Doctor, you will please note that I asked QUESTIONS; if I had the answers I wouldn't have asked them. Rather than responding with a kneejerk "What do YOU know; are YOU qualified?" when I never said I was, why not try addressing the questions...which actually ARE questions and not a sideways way of acting like I know all the answers. Jeez, what's wrong with you people?
Anniee
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:26am.
You might want to stop with the caffeine, or whatever it is that's making you so angry. The doc answered your questions thoroughly and respectfully. He went into detail about ethics etc and why he feels it's a bad idea.
His question to you might have been his way of asking if you were in health care and interpreted the code of ethics some other way.
I never go near caffeine, but
Submitted by Anniee451 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:32am.
I never go near caffeine, but thanks for the *cough* concern. I actually didn't read past the accusatory "Are YOU qualified, do YOU know" stuff which is apparent since that was what I addressed. It should have been patently obvious that I was actually asking, not pretending to be a doctor or have all the answers. Yes, I intend to finish the doctor's reply, but when he starts it out with accusations of that sort that have no bearing on what I asked, I have to wonder what the hell?
About the only thing that generally makes me angry (aside from leftism and feminism) is being accused of being a leftist (or worse, a feminist.) If you AREN'T pissed off by the state of things today, then you have a problem, to be honest. Plenty of Americans are plenty pissed, and why shouldn't they be?
Anniee
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:39am.
Check you pm's. By the way, I am very angry about what's going on. I just try to direct my anger in ways that will make a difference.
Accusatory?
Submitted by drsamherman on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 4:20pm.
I asked you if you were a health care professional. A simple "no" would have sufficed.
The questions you asked were answered within the framework of health care professional ethics. As long as there is even a remote chance that health care professional assisted suicide (HCPAS) could be abused (and it will be, given human nature), then the vast majority of health care professionals will not want anything to do with it. That is what "we people" in health care think--we conduct ourselves according to the ethical standards we were taught and the legal and regulatory environment in which we practice.
Even where HCPAS has been enacted, there is deep reluctance to implement it across professions. The regulatory boards view these laws as condoning behavior which goes against our ethics. The intention is not to promote suffering, but instead to tell those who are responsible for shaping the laws that govern our professions that absent legal protections and changes in those ethics, what they seek is impossible until clear standards exist. If you look at where the Swiss and Dutch are with respect to their HCPAS legislation, there is serious concern that the countries are becoming "Suicide Meccas". If you read the Dutch and Swiss newspapers, they report public concern over this phenomenon and the resulting abuses that are probably taking place.
Histrionics will not solve anything.
right to die
Submitted by dmacleo on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 2:41pm.
as someone with nerve damage causing 24-7 pain equated to bone cancer level I want people to butt out. if at some time in the future I decide I can no longer take the pure agony why should anyone be allowed to force me to live.
this whole P.A.S. stuff is a quagmire.
does "do no harm" equal force person to be in agony?
add in celebrities getting high for fun causing feds to crack down on medication and it just gets to be too much.
kevorkian was what he was, and the people who used his services made their own decisions.
You know, some of the people
Submitted by Anniee451 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 6:27am.
You know, some of the people with all the easy answers don't have a clue what it's like to live year after year with excruciating pain. They don't know what it does to someone. Hell, I didn't know until I'd suffered it myself. How can anyone? I don't want to die - I find that out every time I come close ;) but it can certainly make someone want to. My sincere sympathies for your suffering :( And I do hope you're able to hang in there, really I do. I know how hard it is.
thank you
Submitted by dmacleo on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 11:28am.
so far the benefits of life FAR outweigh everything else and I still find enjoyment in stuff.
48 hours after that stops, it ends.
Anniee
Submitted by Radical1979 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 10:46pm.
Why do you assume that it's an easy answer when someone doesn't believe in assisted suicide? It's very difficult to be there and care for someone who is suffering. And you know what, some of us can, and do, live in pain, year in and year out, but still do not believe in assisted suicide.
Pain is a part of life in fact
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 9:52am.
there is a saying that the best part of feeling pain it let's you know you're still alive. You should always leave your options open but preserving life is by far the first option. Giving in so easy to die like Dr. Death would choose for you to believe is downright immoral. I think people that choose to die had suicidal tendencies in the first place. We all go through pain and suffering so I'm not sure how assisted suicide as the liberals put it is a viable option.
I guess this is a survival of the fittest mentality so do let me get in your way if that's the final solution. I hope and pray it's not because your better off here with us until God decides otherwise.
"there is a saying that the
Submitted by Anniee451 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:29am.
"there is a saying that the best part of feeling pain it let's you know you're still alive."
Yes, someone who'd never been through it except in limited bouts. And naturally pain is a part of life; I suffer it year in and out; how could I not know this? I don't choose to die, no. That doesn't mean it's your decision or anyone else's, much less the government's. That's what I'm talking about. Why is this so baffling? I'm baffled at the bafflement, frankly.
If you're referencing Darwin you're barking up the wrong tree; I'm a creationist and have spent years debating evolutionists and studying apologetics on creationism and the bible. My decision is one thing; someone else's decision isn't mine to make - I may try to convince them and exhort them; that doesn't make the decision mine. Or even worse, the government's.
Who says I haven't dealt with pain my life?
Submitted by gmaniac1 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 12:11pm.
That's another in a long line of ridiculous assertions you have consistently made. And it is the goverment's job to protect life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I think it iterates that in the US constitution. If you kill yourself on your own there's nothing one can do about it. But if you have some snake oil salesman of a doctor helping out with the process, well that is just criminal.
I don't assume it's an easy
Submitted by Anniee451 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:25am.
I don't assume it's an easy answer, radical - I merely note the people (and naturally it is not ALL of them!) who DO have easy answers and just dismiss the whole thing out of hand, then fight to the death via even lies and distortions to defend those answers, which cost them nothing.
Yes, of course I understand that plenty of people live in such pain and don't believe in PAS - I should think those are the people I'd like to listen to on the subject, since they do *not* have easy answers and don't pretend to, for the most part. People who have honestly given an issue thought and deliberation who have a differing opinion than me are not a problem; I'm happy to discuss things with them. It IS possible to have the same facts available and come up with different answers; if I were unaware of that, I'd be a pretty shallow person :) (For example I believe in creation; many evolutionists assume I don't know the evidence - well, yes I do, in fact - the fact is, I have the same information they do; but I have come to a different conclusion.)
Anniee
Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 10:33am.
Well if your interested in debate, go to the forums and look for the evolution/creationism debate. It's a hot forum!
I think by discoursing on line it's easy for us to assume the other person has jumped to conclusions without evidence or experience. When the truth is most people in this life have had experience with pain and illness, weather their own or a family member's.
My experience leads me to believe PAS is not a good thing. Blonde, who I greatly respect, has a different opinion. Having recently had my mother pass I saw the in the past two years the medical profession try to deny her care. The surface reason was they didn't believe she had a worthwhile quality of life, but the reality is the cost of care was expensive. I worry that will be a determining factor in PAS.
After Years Of Smearing Him, It's Only The Decent Thing To Do...
Submitted by TheReal7Sticks on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 2:24am.
Of course the New York Times would call him "fiercely principled" only after death. After all, the NYT and the rest of the MSM had spent much of his life smearing his good name. Do you not think the name "Dr. Death" is a despicable smear? How about trying to allege that he murdered his victims, even though what he did was at the requests of his clients, which is not the pre-meditated taking of a human life.
And another thing: stop using LifeSiteNews as a reliable news source. That website is as much a propaganda rag as WorldNutDaily or Daily KOS or Huff Post. Any website that claims there is a so-called "homosexualist agenda" is already severely biased in its own right and therefore forfeits any objectivity whatsoever.
Nope, what the MSM did was revisionist history when he was alive by trying to turn him into a boogeyman all while he was trying to serve those who needed his help. You, it seems to me, should be ashamed of yourself.
I'm not sure how far I'd go
Submitted by Anniee451 on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 6:32am.
I'm not sure how far I'd go in his defense, personally, but it's certain the MSM is two-faced and full of hypocrites. I see red when people keep referring to the "murders" when, yes, they went to him and asked for it clearly and distinctly. It isn't like there were a whole lot of doctors to go to to ask that, were there? Regardless of any other problems he had, he was the only game in town. If someone is going to genuinely kill themselves, and their suffering is not going to end until they die, and their families support them, and the choice is knock them out and do it painlessly or wait for them to blow their heads off instead, I don't see what place people who aren't even in any pain have putting themselves in the middle of it. It's a freaking family/personal thing. But then there are certain people who put themselves into a lot of decisions that are NOT their business (Randall Terry comes to mind; I don't mean because he's pro-life, but other cases where he simply butts in to family decisions and files court cases and so forth. Disgusting.)
There's no such thing as a "homosexualist agenda", Sticks?
Submitted by SickofLibs on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 8:06am.
Even most homosexuals would call that a lie.
Will I "Stop using LifeSiteNews as a reliable news source"?
Submitted by Tom Blumer on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 10:22am.
No.
In this case, LSN reported that two of Kevorkian's suicide-committers were not terminally ill. That statement was correct, and as shown in another comment, two of very many. IOW, LSN was, as usual, correct.
Absolutely Sir.
Submitted by The Vet on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 10:50am.
The sites I pulled my quotes from clearly had an agenda to push. The thing is, they pulled their information from some prestigious universities that published studies on deaths under Kevorkian. As long as a site is truthful and sources their facts, we should have no qualms about citing something they say regardless of whether the site has a singular focus such as oh, I don't know, maybe reporting liberal bias to the near exclusion of all else.
Oh and 7Sticks is a retread. He was banned for a nasty post about Catholics and the Pope in addtion to being an all around nut. His original name was The7Sticks . He was back within 2 weeks with the new name TheReal7Sticks.
Not even looking - thanks
Submitted by Anniee451 on Wed, 06/08/2011 - 4:32pm.
Not even looking - thanks everyone but this is a bummer, and I'm so happy about Coulter's CNN interview that I'm going to drop it altogether. She stuck it to that leftist HARD; and as always, SMART!
Hehe; it's too good to bum now.