NBC's Engel Is Adamant on NPR: Iraq's Liberation Set Back 'Arab Spring'
George W. Bush spoke out repeatedly during his term for the spread of democracy throughout the Middle East. He said it was insulting to assume that Arabs or Muslims were incapable of democratic reforms. Bush overthrew dictators in Iraq and Afghanistan and allowed elections to proceed. But NBC's chief foreign correspondent, Richard Engel, was adamant on National Public Radio on Friday: You cannot credit Bush policies for the "Arab Spring."
NPR Fresh Air host Terry Gross seemed to be hoping Engel would help her out and denounce Bush:
GROSS: You covered the war in Iraq, which the Bush administration said would bring democracy to Iraq and then help spread it through the Middle East. So now democracy is trying to spread through the Middle East, you know...
ENGEL: But it wasn't because of Iraq.
GROSS: Yes. So I wanted to know whether you think Iraq had anything to do with that.
ENGEL: No. If anything I think it slowed it down. I was in Egypt. I was in Libya. I was in Tunisia even and I didn't hear a single person saying in those crowds: "We're going to do this. Look what they've done in Baghdad. If they can do it in Baghdad we can do it here too." Zero. Zilch.
Instead what you saw was the governments of Gadhafi and of Mubarak saying: "Look at what happened in Baghdad. You people want democracy? Well, look at what happened in Iraq. They had a civil war. They had chaos." The Iraq was used to scare the people into not pursuing their democratic aspirations. So this cause-effect relationship that some people are talking about just wasn't there.
People were determined to go out onto the streets to demonstrate and to demand more rights because their governments were treating them badly because of corruption, because of inequality, not because they were inspired by what they saw in Baghdad. What people saw in Baghdad was the country descend into civil war.
Engel seemed to be speaking from the John Chancellor School -- as in when the former NBC anchor claimed shortages in the Soviet Union had nothing to do with communism. Engel appeared on NPR to promote his new documentary with Rachel Maddow titled "Day of Destruction, Decade of War." Maddow explained it to The Huffington Post:
"We both felt like there was explanatory work to be done," Maddow said, in a bit of an understatement. "We are structurally different than we were." That, she said, is really the special's overarching thesis: that the country has changed.
Like many, Maddow had followed all of these events closely over the years. Unlike many, she also had cable news time and money to give her take on how the U.S. has responded to 9/11. So she and Engel set about doing just that.
"There are certain things about the way that the country's changed," she said. "Super-empowered local law enforcement, the business of national security, the privatization of so many core military functions, the way that the fear of terrorism...has become a lucrative business, the way that it has become almost an unquestioned goal that counterterrorism and law enforcement should be commingled."
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Comments
Oh. My. Gawd.
Submitted by motherbelt on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 8:55am.
What are these people drinking?
So now democracy is trying to spread through the Middle East, you know...
Is she serious? Is she sober?
Yes, it's trying, Terry, and being trampled everywhere.
Engel nailed it, as far as his description of threats other Islamic leaders used to put down the idea of democracy.
But to say that GW Bush and Iraq had nothing to do with stirring up the desire for democracy is just B as in B, S as in S.
Didn't know there were hallucinogens that powerful.
Submitted by drsamherman on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 2:01pm.
Even LSD, peyote, mescaline and psilocybin seem weak to whatever the liberal press is smoking, shooting or ingesting these days.
Is Richard Engel the only expert on the Middle East...
Submitted by Red Jeep on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 9:06am.
...other than Christianne Amanpour in the world?
It makes perfect sense.....
Submitted by NC Cop on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 9:15am.
...to an idiot liberal like Engel.
Essentially what he's saying is that the democracy installed in Baghdad.......slowed down installing democracy elsewhere.
Complete rubbish. I'm not sure there is even a connection between the two, but saying that Iraq slowed down the "Arab Spring" is ridiculous. Not to mention, let's wait and see how this plays out before getting all excited about this. Egypt isn't exaclty panning out like we'd hoped. Just ask Israel.
And further, it's based on a false assumption that . . .
Submitted by Galvanic on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 10:01am.
. . . the popular uprisings in Egypt, Libya, Syria, etc. will deliver Western-model democratic governments to replace the totalitarian regimes.
Yet, we haven't seen that anywhere, and even analysts of the Arab world admit that the new governments are not likely to resemble Western democracies. In fact, there's a legitmate fear that during the fragile transitional periods, zealous Islamic fundamentalists -- supported by jihadist groups like Al Qaeda and others -- will intimidate weaker democratic factions and emerge as the dominant actors, and "Arab Spring" will resemble something dreamed of by the 9/11 attackers.
Supporting the uprisings
Submitted by jon_torlin on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 10:32am.
You have to wonder about Soetoro's selective support of the uprisings. Well, no, if you know his background, it makes perfect sense, he supported the ones that were espousing Sharia law/Islamic beliefs. He didn't support the ones in Iran, but supported the ones in Egypt including meeting with the Muslim Brotherhood which should be an enemy of the state for example. And of course, he was supporting the Palestinians, while at the same time condemning the Israelis for their actions. And on and on.
-Jon
What grows in the Spring?
Submitted by pockets64 on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 11:06am.
We have yet to see what flowers will blossom as a result of this Arab Spring.
And to say that seeing the example of despots pushed down and replaced by democracies slowed others from pushing down their own despots and installing their own democracies is ridiculous.
If the new democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan slowed down Arab Spring, then Arab Spring goes against what the changes in Iraq and Afghanistan represent. Arab Spring must, therefore, be an Is lamic extremist movement, not a democratic movement.
pockets64 -
Submitted by Agnostic on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 11:10am.
Your last couple of sentences are very much on track especially if you believe the reports from the Israelis that weapons from Libya have been used against Israel on their borders. We already know that Egypt has started more aggressive moves.
True
Submitted by JustAl on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 9:16am.
Invading Iraq did hold back the so called, "Arab Spring" which is not a drive for democracy but one toward islamofacism. Bush won the battle in Iraq, Obama has seen to it that we now loose the entire middle east (with idiots like McCain helping).
"Insulting to assume that Arabs or Muslims were incapable of
Submitted by virginia republican on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 9:48am.
democratic reforms"? Great point. I mean, it's not as if Arabs/Muslims don't have a tremendous amount of experience with democracy, right? The religion itself consigns half the population itself (females) to second or third rate status, so that's a good start. Add in the infidels and you have a majority of the population behind the eight ball already. I would say that betting on the "Arab spring" generating more theocracies is a pretty safe way to invest your money. Too bad there's no action in that regard with bookies or Vegas.
Why it happens
Submitted by jon_torlin on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 9:58am.
Bush had the right idea, but the wrong idea as well.
It's certainly possible for democracy to exist in the middle east, but as long as they are of Islam, or that they are Muslims, the two will always be in conflict.
I've said this elsewhere but this is still true in the middle east, Islam will conflict with the United States Constitution, it can not co-exist. If any country is pursuing democracy, they MUST get rid of Islam, that's the only thing that will work. And I mean get rid of it TOTALLY.
Look at what's happening with Iran. There's been several uprisings over there for people who wanted democracy versus the Sharia situation they are in. Of course, the Muslims just can't HAVE that, so they start stomping down on that just to maintain the status quo. And we already know that Soetoro is on the side of the Muslims because he IS one himself. If he wasn't one, why is he in contact with so many of the dictators and rebel leaders like the Brotherhood who are very pro-Sharia? Not to mention many of his decisions are based on Islam tenets. Sure, he made references to "God" at the 9/11 memorials but that's the taqiya(sp?) which is part of being Muslim.
As Dave mentioned many times before, Islam has no place in a civilized world.
-Jon
Who is Richard Engle and why
Submitted by buddyc on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 10:12am.
Who is Richard Engle and why should care what he says about anything? If he appears on Maddow he has to be a hack.
Engle is a big hack
Submitted by Marcus Porcius on Fri, 09/16/2011 - 1:58am.
He couldn't even get the Taliban's defeat right, saying it was 400 "mostly CIA operatives."
Anybody who even slightly followed Operation Enduring Freedom knows that Army and Air Force Special Forces, bombers and fighters, and eventually the Rangers and Marines south of Kandahar were all involved...all in the first month. Hardly only 400 "mostly CIA operatives."
Like all liberals and most reporters, Richard Engle doesn't like to be confused by facts...he already has an opinion.
"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." G.K. Chesterton
www.theconservativereview.com
Egypt isn't exaclty panning out like we'd hoped.
Submitted by sherlock1 on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 10:55am.
Egypt isn't exaclty panning out like we'd hoped. Just ask Israel.
True, and Iraq isn't exactly panning out like these leftists hoped - they want radical Islamic states to result from the democracy movement, and they will probably get their wish - except in Iraq.
With Luck the Kentucky Super Solders Will Change Afghanistan
Submitted by Avitar on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 11:39pm.
The world could live with a bunch of Afghnistan Hillbillies. I dont think that Islam could hold on in a place where the girls learn to shoot.
Unfortunately for the left
Submitted by Free Thinker on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 11:35am.
Unfortunately for the left history will judge George W Bush well. Engel's absurd reaction is just a desperate and futile attempt to deny history. Engel and his ilk are not even players in the history of the middle east.
I actually agree with the buffoon
Submitted by RESTLESS 1 on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 12:34pm.
You can't pin the "sharia uprising, (H/T Rush), on W. This is all the 0's fault.
"Look what's happening..." in Libya!
Submitted by CobraMan on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 3:27pm.
"Look at what happened in Baghdad. You people want democracy? Well, look at what happened in Iraq. They had a civil war."
Do you mean like what is happening in Libya?
By the way, WHY is the Libyan Civil War being so ignored by the US press? No "body counts," no live pictures of bombings, no photographs of the death and destruction that is occurring on a daily basis. No wailing women bending over the bodies of dead children, no actual visual coverage at all. It's one of the most visually censured civil wars in modern history. You can't tell me that, with all the reporters who are "embedded" with the rebels that there isn't a single photograph or video of the death and destruction that is occurring. It's as if the press is HIDING the actual, physical, damage that this war is causing to the people if Libya, something they constantly covered in Iraq for over 7 years straight. I guess that, as opposed to Iraq, Libya is a "good" war so "bad" things, like photos of dead bodies or burning building, need not be discussed, or even displayed.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
It Would Be Nice If It Were Wrong.
Submitted by Avitar on Thu, 09/15/2011 - 11:34pm.
However stamping out freedom is among the spiritual aspirations of the majority of Muslims. Translated Islam is 'submission' and does not approve of pride or freedom in any way. As long as faith in Islam is strong the Muslim populations will vote once to end freedom.