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E.J. Dionne: 'If Insuring 32 Million More Americans Isn't Enormous Social Reform Nothing Counts as Change'

By Noel Sheppard | December 30, 2010 | 12:31

A  A
Noel Sheppard's picture

No matter how long I analyze liberal media thinking, it never ceases to amaze me.

Consider if you will the following paragraph from E.J. Dionne's column in Thursday's Washington Post:

And, yes, there is the small issue of Obama's real achievements, the health-care law, above all. If insuring 32 million more Americans is not an enormous social reform, then nothing can be said to count as change. The now well-rehearsed list of additional accomplishments - from Wall Street and student-loan reform to the end of "don't ask, don't tell" to the simple fact that the economy's catastrophic slide was halted and reversed - would, in the abstract, do any administration proud.

Let's start with that second sentence: "If insuring 32 million more Americans is not an enormous social reform, then nothing can be said to count as change."

First off, ObamaCare doesn't insure 32 million more Americans, as, thankfully, there was no government option to cover those currently not so. As such, one has to wonder what Dionne and his ilk are thinking when they make this kind of absurd observation.

Contrary to E.J.'s assertion, what ObamaCare did was legally require folks not needing or wanting health insurance to buy it against their will. This is therefore more of a financial reform than a social one even if we ignore the legality of it.

After all, the Constitutionality of this mandate has already been questioned by a federal judge in Virginia, and is destined to eventually go to the Supreme Court. There it seems likely the Justices will be somewhat equally divided with Anthony Kennedy deciding whether this component of ObamaCare stays or is tossed on the scrap heap.

In the end, one man might decide the future buying decisions of millions of Americans.

By his hand, recent and soon-to-be college graduates may be forced to purchase health insurance they likely don't need instead of having more money for rent, a mortgage, a car, food, or paying down student loans.

To folks like Dionne, this is somehow a positive, for in their view, the addition of healthy youngsters into the insurance pool will reduce costs for older, less healthy people that really need the coverage.

But what E.J. and his kind miss is that there is absolutely no certainty that insurance companies will in any way reduce premiums for the currently insured. They may rather choose to increase their currently rather thin profit margins.

The explosion in health insurance stock prices since ObamaCare was becoming an eventuality supports this contention.

However, let's assume the Left are right, and the exponential growth in health insurance costs will at least be halted by ObamaCare. Haven't we again transferred costs to the young?

With Medicare and Social Security heading to certain insolvency in the coming decades, it is a metaphysical certitude part of the equation to rescue these programs will include increased contributions from young workers.

The goal of the individual mandate is another such transfer of costs.

Where does this end? If we continue to burden youth this way, how will they ever provide a lifestyle for themselves near that of their parents or grandparents?

Poll after poll finds people under the age of 30 feeling they'll never achieve the financial success of previous generations. Maybe folks like Dionne telling them they should buy health insurance so their parents' costs for such will go down adds to this angst.

Not surprisingly, E.J. and his kind in the media - for the record, he's 58! - consider this "an enormous social reform."

What will be the next thing folks like Dionne want to force people to buy so that its cost declines for them if Kennedy decides the individual mandate is Constitutional?

Consider the following from Dionne's piece:

Modern American liberalism is not some abstract and alien creed. At its best, it marries a practical, get-things-done approach to government with a devotion to fairness, justice and compassion.

Yes, fairness in Dionne's view is forcing healthy young people to buy health insurance so that less-healthy older people won't have to pay as much for it.

This goes hand-in-hand with thinking that despite the top one percent of wage-earners currently paying 39 percent of all the federal income taxes collected, they're not paying their "fair share."

But what can one expect from a man that thinks "the economy's catastrophic slide was halted and reversed" by the current White House resident?

As Obama took the oath of office with a 7.4 percent unemployment rate, and it now stands at a staggering 9.8 percent, only a liberal media member like Dionne would see this as reversing the economy's catastrophic slide.

More concerning, this kind of thinking is prevalent in today's media.

Heaven help us.

About the Author

Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters. Click here to follow Noel Sheppard on Twitter.
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Comments

An Open Note to the GOP

Submitted by JustAl on Thu, 12/30/2010 - 12:44pm.

Don't think for one minute that you will get another chance if you choose to "change" Obamacare in any way other than complete erasure. The only "change" we need in the federal government is much, much less involvement in health care, media, sex, drugs, rock &roll, and all other private issues.
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Well down here in the real

Submitted by MidAmerica on Thu, 12/30/2010 - 1:53pm.

Well down here in the real world I can tell you from personal experience millions of people in the last few years have had the choice of less insurance coverage or considerably more expensive insurance premiums.  The prime reason for this is the uncertainties and the certainties imposed by obamacare.

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Yes, fairness in Dionne's

Submitted by dscott on Thu, 12/30/2010 - 1:55pm.

Yes, fairness in Dionne's view is forcing healthy young people to buy health insurance so that less-healthy older people won't have to pay as much for it.

I must disagree with this as ObamaCare will in fact take $300 billion in Medicare from senior citizens over the next 10 years to cover over 10 million illegal aliens.   At least Dione reduced the uninsured from 45 million to 32 million.  The real figure was at the time more like 15 million which included the illegals.

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
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Progressives like Dionne revel in legislation . . .

Submitted by Galvanic on Thu, 12/30/2010 - 1:57pm.

. . . but don't worry about costs.  They assume that the funding will always come from somewhere -- presumably the "super-rich," whom they seem to regard as a bottomless money pit.

And because of this, they care little about (a) fraud, waste, and abuse in government, and (b) unintended outcomes of progressive programs. 

Our welfare system was a prime example, doing more to destroy the black American family unit than slavery accomplished.  Yet there remain porgressives who want to return to that disasterous system because, some how, they consider it more humane.

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I looked at that little

Submitted by bassndude on Thu, 12/30/2010 - 2:03pm.

I looked at that little stainless steel flask I got for Christmas, this morning. I considered filling it with the Brandy sitting on the counter. I remember thinking, I may need that today.

But, I diden't fill it or bring it with me.

And now we have E.J. Dionne , the NYC Union, Klein and O'Donnell on the Constitution...

Now I need a drink!

 

Save a SeAL, club a liberal/troll!!

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How ironic

Submitted by CobraMan on Thu, 12/30/2010 - 2:18pm.

It's incredibly ironic that the very same liberals who spend so much time denigrating "Rich Capitalists" now think that it is one of the liberal's greatest accomplishments, a historic social breakthrough, that Obama and the rest of the liberal Democrats are FORCING people to buy a product that is guaranteed to make those rich capitalists (which we all know are evil republicans, right?) even richer.

Whats that you're saying?  The federal government will now chose several "approved" policies for you to purchase?  Yea, that will reduce the influence of corporate lobbyists in government, another one of your socially important goals, right?  Right?

Rejoice, oh ye superior liberals, for your accomplishment.  You really stuck it to the "man" this time, didn't you?

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court

Or Anwar al-Awlaki.

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32 million uninsured Americans...

Submitted by Phryj1 on Thu, 12/30/2010 - 2:49pm.

...was only a problem in the eyes of nanny-state progressives, and their solution -as it ALWAYS is with the left- was an authoritarian mandate. A mandate that in this case actually punishes people who chose to be responsible for their own medical bills. People between the ages of 26 and 40 are now certain to lose money by paying skyrocketing premiums and having nothing at all to show for it, as these liberals' all-important "coverage" is worthless as long as you are healthy. Obamacare punishes personal responsibility and rewards being an entitlement parasite, as all liberal egalitarian pipe dreams do.

Progressives seem to be completely averse to facts and logic. Apparently, reality has a conservative bias.

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This ObamaCare scam is just

Submitted by Barack_must_go..... on Thu, 12/30/2010 - 6:22pm.

This ObamaCare scam is just one more reparations program whereby white middle to upper class real Americans are being forced to pay for healthcare coverage for poor black and hispanics without any say in the matter whatsoever.

The cost will skyrocket 10 times what the current cost to productive white society is today when the dregs go to the emergency room in the middle of the night.

Lets face it, in the hood you sleep under a bridge all day, then come out looking for trouble at night.

So unless we can convince these upstanding citizens to shoot one another in the face, for a pair of sneakers during the day, when the neighborhood clinic is open, the costs remain the same.

Nothing the Ass Clown does for these people is going to change a thing in their miserable lives.....nothing.

He just wants the rest of us to be miserable too.....

Watch a few episodes of " The First 48 " on A & E and you'll see exactly what I am talking about.

Barack_Must_Go.....

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Helter Skelter?

Submitted by IrateNate on Thu, 12/30/2010 - 9:14pm.

Whoa, Dude.  I think we all agree that Obamacare is a blight on America, but - damn - you really should loosen the hood and let the blood back into your brain.  What are you, anyway - Grand Dragon?

Do you really see every black or Hispanic as a personal threat?  You should really seek help...

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I only see the black,

Submitted by Barack_must_go..... on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 3:37pm.

I only see the black, radical, con - man in our White House as a PERSONAL threat, not only to myself, but to America herself. The others, though somewhat threatening to others in their communities, have so far been managable.

Any American who cannot, or worse will not acknowledge the true nature of Obama's manifesto, not simply ObamaCare is the one who must really seek help...

Our children's future, as well as life, as we know it, in America depend on it.

 He isn't just another misguided politician with a few bad ideas you know...

Barack_Must_Go.....

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Dionne is a card-carrying communist

Submitted by ConservaSerb on Thu, 12/30/2010 - 6:36pm.

Always has been.  Always will be.  He'd drop to his knees in front of Barry the HO's crotch, any time, any where.



A wise & frugal government, which shall leave men free 2 regulate their own pursuits of industry & improvement, & shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government. T. Jefferson
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I don't understand the

Submitted by mamabear on Thu, 12/30/2010 - 6:46pm.

I don't understand the contention that health insurance is only for sick people or old people.  Clearly none of you have experienced the value of health insurance, and I'm happy for you, because that means you haven't suffered any catastrophic illness or injuries that you were unable to budget for.  While I agree that peace of mind shouldn't cost as much as it does today, I don't have health insurance because I think I'm going to get my money's worth in actual medical bills.  I have it because I don't want that extra financial panic when I'm dealing with other, much more urgent forms of panic!

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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I have it because I don't

Submitted by dscott on Thu, 12/30/2010 - 7:55pm.

I have it because I don't want that extra financial panic when I'm dealing with other, much more urgent forms of panic!
  Which is the proper reason for the existance of health insurance, the  protection against catastrophic financial loss IF you need an expensive procedure like surgery.  This is no different for property insurance and other forms of insurance.    However, when State Insurance Commissions insist that health insurance pays for FREE medical care like preventive visits to the doctor and flu shots, etc and then forces the rate payers to subsidize services such as abortion so a select group can get it for $50 like in RomneyCare then the whole system becomes fantastically more expensive, that is why ObamaCare failed even before it could be fully implemented. You can't promise the world without paying for it, that's called magical thinking.   Just like with property insurance and car insurance you have a deductible for which you, the rate payer are expected to take care of the mondane and pittly stuff THAT IS NOT A CATASTROPHIC FINANCIAL LOSS.  Robbing the elderly (US Citizens) by curtailing their needs for 10 million or more illegals is just plain immoral.   Which brings us to two groups who have little need for such insurance, the wealthy who pay out of pocket for everything and the 20 somethings who as a group have little need for this.   
Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
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I agree with you, actually. 

Submitted by mamabear on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 12:10am.

I agree with you, actually.  I'd rather we had a single-payer system.  Barring that, I think the only reasonable way to control costs would be to treat health insurance much more like car insurance-- which, incidentally, you are also required to buy if you want to drive.  There was a proposal ages ago that someone linked on the health care forum thread that proposed a really sane-sounding system like that, but I think that old stuff disappeared.  It would force people to budget for health care, to care about costs thus driving them down, and still protect people in case of emergency.

My point, though, is that 20 somethings do have a need for this.  It is perfectly possible to, in your 20's, suddenly need a $14,000 surgery that you can't afford.  When that happens, we all still pay for it through costs that health providers have to increase in order to cover the care they have to give the 20 year old with $200 in his bank account.  I also think that it is perfectly appropriate for the government to subsidize public health issues like vaccines.  If everyone stops getting them, like some silly people do because of the mercury/autism fable, it creates a risk to everyone in their community.

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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Yes, it is possible for a 20

Submitted by dscott on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 5:32pm.

Yes, it is possible for a 20 something to require a surgery such as an appendectomy.  But then a standard health insurance policy is not necessary for this if they have a low cost $5000 deductible policy plan.  I guess it depends on what you define as financially catastrophic. $1000, $2000, $5000, $10,000?

A single payer system is traditionally dependent on a government administered program.  Being of the conservative viewpoint and considering the miserable history of government incompetence in handling social programs, single payer is a non starter, we rejected HillaryCare precisely because of that premise.  Which brings us right back to the private insurance companies.  As long as there are more than one provider of health insurance, consumers have a choice IF one gets cocky and decides to over charge or under perform, that's the point of competition, keeping people on their toes.  With the government as a single payer, they simply give us the middle finger and you have NO recourse.  What else really do you think those committees are being formed under ObamaCare to decide "Best Practice" is all about?  It's the government preparing to justify their denial of any treatment other than what is recognized in the cookie cutter approach to medicine. 

I am against subsidies of any kind since they remove the competition aspect by having the government involved by dictating the price (whether too low or too high) thus settling on only ONE provider of the supply or service in a winner take all contest.  This drives out all competitors for future opportunies. FREE to the recipient is not free when the government uses taxpayer dollars thus diverting private investment funds from wealth creation.  Tax payer dollars don't magically appear, they come from someone's pocket.  Poverty exists in this country BECAUSE of the government stealing the seed money of private investment that would have created jobs which inturn gives people the ability to pay.  The only effective anti-poverty program is A JOB.  From my point of view it is government meddling under the guise THEY can spend money more wisely that creates poverty.  Government is INCOMPETENT.

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
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But most Americans don't

Submitted by mamabear on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 8:50pm.

But most Americans don't choose their insurance provider, their employer chooses their insurance provider.  If you are lucky, you have two to choose between.  If not, you take what your employer hands you.  While I would hope that employers try to choose the best provider for their employees, they have a different motive which is keeping their own costs down.  The best performance for your employer may not be the same thing as the best performance for you, the patient.  So it isn't really a free market where you can dump your insurance and pick up a different one if you don't like the way they behave.

And yes, you can buy individual health insurance, but have you ever tried that?  What a godawful nightmare.  I'm still hopeful that the exchanges and other systems to help consumers compare will do something to standardize individual health insurance and prevent fraud.

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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Holy cow, you got to be kidding us

Submitted by Boudin on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 10:20pm.

So it isn't really a free market where you can dump your insurance and pick up a different one if you don't like the way they behave.

 

Arnt you the same Bear who was chastising someone else about the capitalist and the free market? BTW who prevents the insurance co's competing at the work place? Hint it rhythms with Federal Government. Go find a mirror, and take a look at hypocrisy

Seek Truth, Defend Liberty
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Um, the insurance companies

Submitted by mamabear on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 12:22am.

Um, the insurance companies do compete, they just do it for your employer, not you.  I'm not sure how I'm being hypocritical-- I think the free market doesn't solve all problems.  Sometimes, I think that because the market isn't actually free.  Other times, it is because I think the thing under discussion is inappropriate for market regulation.

How is that hypocritical?

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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And yes, you can buy

Submitted by dscott on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 10:42am.

And yes, you can buy individual health insurance, but have you ever tried that?  What a godawful nightmare.  I'm still hopeful that the exchanges and other systems to help consumers compare will do something to standardize individual health insurance and prevent fraud.

Yes I have had individual insurance and it wasn't a nightmare.  And what you missed here is health insurance is so expensive BECAUSE of the standards imposed by the State Insurance commissions that needlessly lard up policies because they demand we the rate payers subsidize  stuff we don't want.  

Prevent Fraud? Please, how many billions a year is there of Medicare and Medicaid Fraud that the Government just can't seem to prevent?  Sorry, I don't have the confidence in government bureaucrats that you seem to have, their record sucks. 

 

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
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The plural of "anecdote" is not "evidence".

Submitted by drsamherman on Thu, 12/30/2010 - 11:33pm.

Mamabear:

Do you have an actual handle on the cost of insuring 32 million people?  Do you have any clue about how much it will cost?  It is not cheap, nor is it something you can turn on overnight like some string of Christmas lights or a lamp.

Most uninsured patients will receive some form of assistance, because several dozen federal and state laws protect the uninsured from multiple perspectives.  At the minimum, federal law prohibits ANY hospital from denying emergent care regardless of ability to pay for life-sustaining services and treatment.  That goes back to Hill-Burton and other laws from the 50s onward.  No physician, pharmacist, nurse or other healthcare professional can deny treatment necessary to sustain life--that is the law and that is our ethical core.  We provide care within our means, ability, scope of training and practice.

To say that we don't experience the value of health insurance is remarkably ignorant, considering that many of us are health care professionals who routinely provide patient care without regards to ultimate reimbursement--as our professional ethics and human responsibility require.

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I think it is interesting

Submitted by mamabear on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 12:01am.

I think it is interesting that you accuse me of having no idea what health care costs and then describe the assistance that the uninsured get for medical costs they can't cover as though THAT is something magical that pays for itself out of nothing.

I pay for that care, and so do you!  I'm sure you pay more than I do.  Why should you as a doctor pay so heavily for the cost of treating people who can't afford it?  If they can buy health insurance, they should.  If they can't, they should get help so that you don't end up writing off costs you know won't be covered by anyone.

I don't think our system is perfect.  I kind of hate the way Obama care ended up-- I think we need to deal with costs in a much more comprehensive way so that covering everyone's medical costs, whether it is through assistance or insurance, is actually accounted for.

The reason I commented here is not because I think Obama care is a magical cure all.  I commented because trying to cover more uninsured people is not one of the parts of it that I hate!

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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"Accuse"?  Playing the victim

Submitted by drsamherman on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 10:05pm.

"Accuse"?  Playing the victim again?  You self-identifed as an academic in many previous posts, mamabear.  You cannot simultaneously use emotionally charged rhetoric to make points when your logic fails.

The concept of "ureimbursed" is far different than "unpaid" in the world of health care.  Frequently, we provide services which are not fully covered by what we are paid by health insurance carriers or government programs.  We have to treat everyone to the limits of our ability and thes scope of our licensure and practice.  This means providing a lot of free care which is never paid, or providing services above and beyond the standard of care which will not be reimbursed.  Only someone who has never had fiduciary duty, such as governing board membership for a hospital or other health care organization, would think that all care is reimbursed somehow--it is not.  Unpaid means we receive nothing.  Unreimbursed means we provide care that is neither billed nor paid.

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So, you indicated that you

Submitted by mamabear on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 12:32am.

So, you indicated that you thought I didn't understand something and then called my statements "remarkably ignorant."  I don't think calling that an "accusation" is unreasonable or particularly emotional on my part.  

Apparently, though, my overflowing emotion prevented you from understanding the actual point of my post, which is precisely that it is unfair that you do not get reimbursed for care that you are mandated to provide.  I know not all care gets reimbursed, and that was my point.  You should get reimbursed for care you provide, and one way to increase the chances of that happening is to have more people with health insurance.  I'm sure there are other aspects to that system that also require much reform, since everything about our health care system seems to be screwed up these days.  If you want to call that statement ignorant, go right ahead.  But you could instead just explain what you think should be done.

In the future, I'll try to prevent my melodramatic wailing and gnashing of teeth from confusing for you.  Sorry about that.

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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Actually, the contention is

Submitted by Radical1979 on Thu, 12/30/2010 - 11:51pm.

Actually, the contention is that health insurance is only for people who choose to have health insurance.  I also don't want the government deciding how much insurance I need, what I should pay, and the treatment I should get.

Proud member of the 53%!
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But the government already

Submitted by mamabear on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 12:18am.

But the government already decides that you get life-saving treatment if you need it, and if you can't pay for it, the rest of us cover the cost.  If you really can't pay for it, that's fine.  I'm a liberal, I believe in the majority who can carrying burdens for the minority who can't.  But I have very little sympathy for people who end up in a bind because they were young and felt immortal and didn't bother to buy health insurance when they could.  I don't really like the idea that the costs and premiums I pay are higher because of them.

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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mamabear hates children

Submitted by Agnostic on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 12:40am.

Relax, it is a joke.  If you were a Republican and said you didn't like paying higher premiums because of someone elses bad choices it wouldn't be a joke but as a liberal that is okay - at least according to the media.

You seem to be heading in the right direction but if I may add a couple of points:

First, in a mixed economy the government is going to have some control over the distribution of funds that is deemed for the benefit of society.  Such is the case when the government stands behind the medical fields moral obligation to treat people coming in to the ER with real problems.  The extention of that control through excessive regulation medical community, excessive regulation of the insurance industry, establishment of extensive red tape through various agencies and the creation of the medical industry's reliance on Medicare/Medicaide causes the cost to go up much, much more than immortal young people in the ER.  The total lack of TORT reform also hurts both the medical and insurance industries.

There used to be a power struggle between hospitals, insurance companies and doctors.  Now these groups attempt to survive through their struggle under the oppression of the government.

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid
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I don't think that's what

Submitted by mamabear on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 9:47am.

I don't think that's what makes costs go up.  What makes costs go up is the complete disconnect between those costs and the people making the decisions to incur them.  Patients don't pay for their own medical care, so they don't care what it costs.  A patient with insurance or on Medicare has no incentive other than social responsibility to try and keep the costs of their own medical care down.  Doctors are the same.  Often they have no way of knowing what the treatments they prescribe actually cost.  And while we want doctors to be concerned primarily about our health and not the cost, there needs to be someone who does care how much it costs!

That someone ends up being the insurance industry, which get called bad guys for many of their profit-saving measures.  And some of them were really bad, and will be stopped by the health care bill.  Others, though, are really sensible!  There was an interesting piece on This American Life last year about why insurance companies can't keep drug costs down.  They try raising copays on expensive drugs as a way of signalling to the consumer that they are purchasing an expensive brand name drug when a generic would do just the same.  The drug companies come back with incentives and discount cards to keep people coming to the table, eating the copay because the value of the full cost paid by the insurance company is so much more valuable.  No one wins but the drug companies, and fundamentally it's hard to argue with the contention that they should get some money back after they invest hundreds of millions in developing new drugs!

The whole system makes so little sense it is ridiculous.  I think we should have scrapped the whole thing :)

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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good points mamabear,

Submitted by Agnostic on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 6:10pm.

As a liberal why do you think that the cost saving methods created by the government are going to be better than the insurance companies - insurance companies that have to answer to lawyers, regulators, courts and the to a very small degree (unfortunately) their customers.  The government institutions who will answer to no one but themselves will be in charge as cost continue to rise or scarcity removes products/services.  Congress couldn't run its own kitchen but 40% of America want to have the same people run all of healthcare.

The government in rough numbers is responsible for 65-80% of revenue in community non-profit hospitals depending on who you read.  I have never read consistant numbers about the private sector hospitals but personal experience puts it at 30-45%.  The greater the government involvement the quicker prices have gone up.  We are at a breaking point now on prices because neither doctors, hospitals nor insurance companies are making adequate money to motivate continued growth in the industry - just in time for the boomers.

When the government steps in and controlled rent prices in various cities around the country the prices overall skyrocketed.  Wait until you see what happens when they control the prices (even more) in healthcare.

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid
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To add to your point

Submitted by Radical1979 on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 6:25pm.

To add to your point agnostic, we have seen the same results with the home industry and college education.  As soon as the government stepped in and said everyone has a right to these things, prices rose faster than inflation.  We only have a right to the things we can afford, by working or saving our money.

Proud member of the 53%!
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But health care costs are

Submitted by mamabear on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 8:41pm.

But health care costs are already skyrocketing in your happy free market system.  Lack of government involvement is clearly no guarantee of efficiency!

While I know that government won't be the most efficient system, I also know that they have no profit motive, and thus no incentive to screw me when I try and get medical help.  The same is not true of the insurance companies.

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Now this is bs

Submitted by Boudin on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 9:34pm.

But health care costs are already skyrocketing in your happy free market system.

Lie, prices are skyrocketing because of Government meddling, they restrict everything from the insurance to the type of materials supplies are made. There isnt a single medical issue or product the Government isnt involved in.

Lack of government involvement is clearly no guarantee of efficiency!

We already know the result, we are currently suffing from it, so by all means let increase the inefficiency by about a 1000

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So then you disagree with me

Submitted by mamabear on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 12:35am.

So then you disagree with me that the source of skyrocketing costs is the disconnect between patients as consumers and the costs they are incurring?

I understand that medical care would probably be a lot cheaper if there was no FDA, but I also think it would be a lot more dangerous and less effective, so I choose regulation when it comes to claims drug companies are allowed to make and requirements for clinical trials and so on.

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mamabear, health costs/economy

Submitted by Agnostic on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 7:04pm.

The reasons the cost are too high is because of the lack of tort reform, regulations preventing competition and regulations connected with the health industry at state and federal levels.

The reasons people are willing to pay the increased cost (even for unrequired services) is because they don't actually see the cost - as you have stated. 

One is a cause and the other just makes it palatable for the masses.

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I totally agree that we need

Submitted by mamabear on Mon, 01/03/2011 - 9:25am.

I totally agree that we need tort reform.  But I still think you can attribute costs to both doctors afraid of lawsuits and patients who don't see the need to say "no" to tests and precautionary measures the doctors suggest out of fear of lawsuits.

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Government, and government

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 12:53am.

Government, and government workers, have no incentive to give you good care.  No matter what the outcome, they'll get their paycheck.  Insurance companies, with profit as a motive, have satisfying customers to continue business as a motive.

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The problem with obamacare is

Submitted by Radical1979 on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 6:29pm.

The problem with obamacare is that the individual will still be insulated from the costs of his/her own healthcare.  Also, a factor in the rising cost of healthcare is the improvements in technology and care.  Our local hospital built a new wing several years ago with all private rooms, the nurses all have cell phones on the floor, and the food service was improved.  All of that costs money.

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That is absolutely a problem

Submitted by mamabear on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 8:32pm.

That is absolutely a problem with Obamacare.  But it's also a problem with the system we had before Obamacare!

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So, why did they force

Submitted by Radical1979 on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 8:35pm.

So, why did they force obamacare upon is since it doesn't solve any problems?  The only answer I can come up with is to take even more control away from the American people.

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It does solve some problems. 

Submitted by mamabear on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 8:39pm.

It does solve some problems.  I just detailed one below.  It just didn't solve THIS problem.

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Again, by tampering with

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 10:15pm.

Again, by tampering with things that aren't problems, Obamacare is creating more problems than it solves.! Bigger problems!

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mamabear young people who

Submitted by Radical1979 on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 6:23pm.

mamabear young people who don't have insurance and need life-saving treatment are billed for that treatment.  Unless they are indigent, they will pay the cost of that treatment over time.  One of the problems that I have with the argument

the majority who can carrying burdens for the minority who can't,  is who decides that someone can't pay?  The drug and alcohol "can't" pay, but why should I be forced to pay for their bad choices?  Why should I pay for the women and families who have children they cannot afford?  Not only do I pay for their medical services but I pay for their food and shelter.  Why do they have the right to make those bad decisions and I be forced to pay for them?

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Which bills could easily run

Submitted by Jer on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 6:42pm.

Which bills could easily run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars...which will likely bankrupt the debtor/patient with the losses recouped by higher costs to the insured...or bills deeply discounted or written off entirely and in either case recouped by higher costs to the insured.  There's no free lunch.

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But there are many instances

Submitted by Radical1979 on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 7:19pm.

But there are many instances where the bill is tens of thousands of dollars.  A lot of money, but possible to repay over time. 

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Right, in which case people

Submitted by mamabear on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 8:35pm.

Right, in which case people have to pay it.  We set levels at which someone is considered "impoverished," we can do the same thing for when someone gets subsidies to buy health insurance.  I realize that there isn't any way to ensure that only worthy, deserving people get public assistance.  However, I don't think the answer to that problem is to deny everyone that assistance.

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Isn't that what Medicaid and

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 10:12pm.

Isn't that what Medicaid and CHIP is all about?  This has nothing to do with helping poor people.  It's about the government taking power from the people.

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This kind of response

Submitted by mamabear on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 9:48am.

This kind of response confuses me.  I thought conservatives hated things like Medicaid which are, in fact, government-provided health care.

But now you'd prefer Medicaid to poor people getting subsidies to buy health insurance from private companies?  Maybe you could explain that one to me!

No one is taking your power from you.  It's just like car insurance-- you have to buy it but no one is telling you who you have to buy it from.  People who don't buy health insurance when they could are, in effect, gambling with other people's money. 

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Acknowledging the existance

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 1:44pm.

Acknowledging the existance and purpose of Medicaid is not an endorsement of it!  I'm questioning why need both!  The point of this whole debacle is not to provide health care for all, we already have that!  It's to give the government more control over our lives! 

Actually, if I don't have a car I don't have to buy car insurance! And obama himself has said this is a pathway to single payer!  The plan is that eventually we won't have a choice, all health care will be provided by the government!
 

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We don't provide health care

Submitted by mamabear on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 6:06pm.

We don't provide health care for all.  We do pretty well, but there are still people who fall through some pretty big cracks.  Or is it your contention that no one in this country ever dies unnecessarily for financial reasons?

I would love a single-payer system, but I don't think it will ever happen.  It just isn't in our nature as a country.  Part of our love of the American dream is the flip side which must believe that everyone who fails to achieve it did something to deserve their failure, which then absolves us from our responsibility to care about them.  Unless we feel like it.

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mamabear doesn't believe in the American dream!

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 6:54pm.

What a shocker!

Part of our love of the American dream is the flip side which must believe that everyone who fails to achieve it did something to deserve their failure, which then absolves us from our responsibility to care about them.  Unless we feel like it.  
That's quite a generalization you're making here.  Aren't you aware of how much American's donate to charity?  http://foundationcenter.org/getstarted/faqs/html/givingstats.html     The difference is making a choice and being forced to give to someone else.  That is called extortion!
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American Dream?

Submitted by Agnostic on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 7:20pm.

A percentage is going to slip through the cracks - that is a societal problem with social solutions that have nothing to do with government.  It is the people that think the "government should do something" that have it wrong - the people should do something.

If I buy the homeless man out by the store a coffee and a sub I've spent 10 bucks and someone is better off for a short time - hopefully he will get other help or a job soon.

If I give $10 bucks to the government $1.85 gets to someone, somewhere in the form of a food stamp or other government give away.  Hopefully they will get other help or a job soon.  However, since they are being handed a free check where the government took my $1.85 and combined it with 200 other people's money and the person is getting a free $370 then what is the hurry.

Which way really serves society better.

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People are at least as

Submitted by mamabear on Mon, 01/03/2011 - 10:33am.

People are at least as imperfect as the government when it comes to keeping people from slipping through the cracks.  You only help the homeless people you see, and you only donate to the charities you know about.  The point of government assistance is that anyone can walk up to that window and ask for help and get it.  Charity doesn't do that.  It serves an important function,but it also can't help everyone.  Soup kitchens and shelters have to lock their doors when they run out of food and beds.  Special interest charities help certain people and not others.  It is fabulous that there is a mechanism to support causes that you care about.  But I also like the fact that when I pay my taxes I'm supporting causes that I don't care about or don't even know about.  I think that's important too.

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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I could not disagree with you

Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 01/03/2011 - 12:42pm.

I could not disagree with you more.  I don't like the fact that the government is involved with causes I may not know about, or spend on things like abortion that kill babies.  That is not the function of government.  Do you really think people are/were better cared for where governments have ultimate control?  Like Cuba, Venezuala, or the former U.S.S.R.?  If so, I've a got a bridge in Brooklyn you might want to buy.

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No, I'm not fond of

Submitted by mamabear on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:37am.

No, I'm not fond of totalitarianism.  I like democracy.

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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When you ask, no demand, that

Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 1:12pm.

When you ask, no demand, that the federal government takes care of everyone and punishes the succesful by taking the fruits of their labor, you create a totalitarian government. 

I prefer a republic myself.

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If your definition of

Submitted by mamabear on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 7:11pm.

If your definition of totalitarianism is anytime the government takes something you don't want to give, then there are very few non-totalitarian governments in the world! 

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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And you'd be happy if we were

Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 11:46pm.

And you'd be happy if we were another one of them wouldn't you?!

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Well, we are, and have been

Submitted by mamabear on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 6:01pm.

Well, we are, and have been for hundreds of years!  So yeah, I'm pretty happy with that.

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So you'd be happy with a

Submitted by Radical1979 on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 8:11pm.

So you'd be happy with a totalitarian government! No surprise!  Everything you've ever said on this site verifies that it!

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Well, only by your bizarre

Submitted by mamabear on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 8:42am.

Well, only by your bizarre definition of totalitarianism.  If you use the word the way the dictionary does, then no, I wouldn't be happy with a totalitarian government.

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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Rad...

Submitted by Jer on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 7:27pm.

The VA probably provides the best health care services in the United States.  And it is entirely government owned and operated--single payer--socialist to its core...commie doctors taking care of red-blooded American patriots.  Somehow our republic has survived in spite of it.

Jer

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Jer

Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 11:44pm.

You mean care like this http://www.newsinferno.com/health-concerns/another-va-hospital-scandal-b..., or this http://www.endonurse.com/news/2010/07/miami-va-hospital-faces-another-co...?

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Aren't you aware of how much

Submitted by mamabear on Mon, 01/03/2011 - 10:28am.

Aren't you aware of how much American's donate to charity?   Sure I am.  That's the "unless we feel like it" part.
When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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Well there you have it, you

Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 01/03/2011 - 11:51am.

Well there you have it, you believe people should be under the control of the government, not the government under the control of the people.  You should be living in a nanny state like England, rather than try to transform our wonderful country.

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But we are in control of our

Submitted by mamabear on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:38am.

But we are in control of our government!  We vote them in and we vote them out.  Until that changes, which I fervently hope it doesn't, I don't see how you can claim that we are at the mercy of a government we have no control over. 

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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Before you respond you need

Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 1:16pm.

Before you respond you need to start looking around at what it is going on.  Obama is doing things by executive order.  There is no means for the people or Congress to change that.  Agencies like the EPA and FDA have been given far reaching powers that are not under the control of Congress.  Through executive orders and these agencies, among other things, the president is now making laws.  Not his function.  We have no control over these agencies.  Pull your head out of the sand.

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Pull your head out of the

Submitted by mamabear on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 7:13pm.

Pull your head out of the sand.

I think it is interesting that you cite only Obama's executive orders and not the guy before him.  Talk about having your head in the sand!  Increases in executive power are not a democrat thing!  And I don't like them either... but you guys started it!

Seriously, though, we can still change that if we want to make a stink about it.  But the fact is that during fearful times, people like a strong executive.  That's why Bush was so invested in keeping us all terrified.  I'd love for that to change, but then we need to work on our national psyche, and I don't even know how you start to do that.

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Bush was invested in keeping

Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 11:54pm.

Bush was invested in keeping us scared?!  Are you telling me the previous attacks on the Twin Towers, the attack on the U.S.S. Cole, embassy attacks around the world, the other attacks around the world, were the result of BUSH keeping us scared?! 

You are beyond the pale.

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Let me get this right...

Submitted by MightyMouth on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 12:23am.

You think Bush wanted us all "terrified" so he could be a "strong" executive? Not because we were attacked on 9/11? So Bush wanted 9/11 because he didn't think we were terrified and strong action by him would make him seem a stronger leader after only one year in office? What are you smoking mamabear? Must be pretty good sh*t! 

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Not because we were attacked

Submitted by mamabear on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 6:07pm.

Not because we were attacked on 9/11? So Bush wanted 9/11 because he didn't think we were terrified and strong action by him would make him seem a stronger leader after only one year in office? What are you smoking mamabear? Must be pretty good sh*t! 

So, I neither said or implied any of that.  Bush didn't want 9/11, and 9/11 was a good reason to be scared.  However, he made deliberate choices that extended that feeling of insecurity long after it was necessary.  I hated, for instance, the idea of a "war on terror."  Creating a war that can never be won ensures that we will always be at war and people will always have a reason to be afraid.  I am very happy that that rhetoric has gone out of fashion.    
When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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You don't have the

Submitted by Radical1979 on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 5:07pm.

You don't have the information Bush had, so you, quite frankly, don't know why Bush made the choices that he made.  You have your head so far in the sand that you don't comprehend that in the time following 9/11 letting our guard down would have allowed our enemies to strike again.  I'm sure you love all the new terminology, overseas contigency operations.  I bet Bin Laden is so fearful when he hears those fightin' words.


 

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I bet Bin Laden is so fearful

Submitted by mamabear on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 5:55pm.

I bet Bin Laden is so fearful when he hears those fightin' words.

"War on Terror" didn't exactly scare him into surrendering.  What exactly would you like our rhetoric to ratchet up to?

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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You know, life is not always

Submitted by mandrake on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 7:06pm.

You know, life is not always so black and white, or about the choices we make. Some times we get hit by a driver running a red light or the umbilical cord gets wraped around your neck at birth leaving you brain damaged. There are a thousand things I could list that could harm you that are not your CHOICE. But since I care about my fellow man, I  prefer to help.

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I like to choose who I help. 

Submitted by Radical1979 on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 7:21pm.

I like to choose who I help.  Those people who have, through no fault of their own, are hurt, over those people who make choices that they know they cannot be responsible for.  I don't accept that the government should choose who I should help, nor should you.

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Well, I really don't have a

Submitted by mandrake on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 7:36pm.

Well, I really don't have a choice since I'm Canadian. But I am thankful since I am the guy hit by a driver running a red light. If it hadn't been for my countries health care plan I'd be homeless by now.

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Or, you could have made the

Submitted by Radical1979 on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 8:29pm.

Or, you could have made the choice to buy your own health insurance if you lived here.  That's always an option.  Hospitals don't take your home to pay for your care.  They set up payment plans that people can afford, so that they can collect the money.  The problem is that most people for some reason, don't feel they should have to pay for their health care.

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Right, except that sometimes

Submitted by mamabear on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 8:38pm.

Right, except that sometimes those companies took your money for years and then called a mole on your shoulder a "pre-existing condition" when you came in for breast cancer treatment and used that to deny your claim.  That sort of evil crap had to stop, one way or another.  The mandate to buy health insurance is a direct result of the attempt to protect insurance companies from people who only buy health insurance when they are sick, after changing the rule that let them screw their customers.  It's a complicated issue!

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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This sounds like bs

Submitted by Boudin on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 9:24pm.

Or fraud.

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I listened to the woman I'm

Submitted by mamabear on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 12:39am.

I listened to the woman I'm describing testify before Congress on the issue.  It was a pretty horrifying story, and while it didn't happen often, it happened.  That's why there's now a new rule, which in turn ends up meaning that everyone needs to buy health insurance so that we don't screw the insurance companies by waiting until we get sick to buy insurance.
 

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Oh, the other delightful

Submitted by mamabear on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 12:49am.

Oh, the other delightful thing the insurance companies would do is accept your enrollment in their insurance plan, take your money for years, and then when you filed an expensive claim go back to the paperwork you filled out at the beginning and try to find errors so that they could kick you out.

I'm sorry, but that's evil. 

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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It would make more sense to

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 1:17am.

It would make more sense to make laws to protect people from being dropped without cause, than to change the entire system into something that we know will cost more and will probably cover less.  If we go to a public option, it will run private insurance out of business.  Then we may not be dropped for treatment, we might just have to wait so long for treatment that by the time we get it we'll be dead from the cancer. 

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dead from the cancer.

Submitted by Boudin on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 2:19am.

Libtards population control. I mean who are you to want to save your own life, selfish. I swear these folks dont have the foggiest idea of the liberties they are squandering with their apathy and defense of Obama care.

Hello, 165 brand spanking new bureaucracies, 65k more IRS agents. Massive boost in punitive management, whats not to like?

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Hello, 165 brand spanking new

Submitted by mamabear on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 10:26am.

Hello, 165 brand spanking new bureaucracies, 65k more IRS agents. Massive boost in punitive management, whats not to like?

Well, if I had to choose between that and dying of cancer, I think I'd go with the IRS agents!
When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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It'll be interesting to see

Submitted by 26CX on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 10:34am.

It'll be interesting to see what reduction in cancer deaths will be able to be attributed to adding  65,000 IRS agents to the government payrolls, but congratulations on your optimism.

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Exactly how do those new IRS

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 9:46pm.

Exactly how do those new IRS jobs and bureaucracies translate into saving the lives of cancer patients?  It doesn't.  It increases the cost of healthcare so there will be less care to go around.
 

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My point was not that IRS

Submitted by mamabear on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 9:51am.

My point was not that IRS agents cure cancer, it was that the rules are there to prevent people from being denied treatment that they need by their insurance provider.  The vast majority of us have never been in that situation, but some people have-- and to them this is a choice between onerous rules and serious risk to their health.  I was attempting to put myself in their shoes, because I don't like the idea of ignoring problems simply because they haven't happened to me yet.

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Trying to link these things

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 1:47pm.

Trying to link these things together makes no sense,

My point was not that IRS agents cure cancer, it was that the rules are there to prevent people from being denied treatment that they need by their insurance provider.
 

 But you made the statement Well, if I had to choose between that and dying of cancer, I think I'd go with the IRS agents!
 

Again, how do increased IRS agents save someone from dying of cancer?
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The IRS agents are a result

Submitted by mamabear on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 5:48pm.

The IRS agents are a result (I presume, someone else brought them up as a consequence of the changes made to our system) of rules which are in place in order to prevent insurance companies from denying legitimate claims in order to save money.  Those claims allow people to afford life saving treatment for things like cancer.

Is this still confusing?

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No dearie, the IRS's role is

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 6:37pm.

No dearie, the IRS's role is to make sure everyone has bought a mandated insurance plan.  But it's precious that you think they are there to police the insurance companies! 

Are you still confused?

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Oh my god.  Okay, I'm going

Submitted by mamabear on Mon, 01/03/2011 - 10:40am.

Oh my god.  Okay, I'm going to try this again-- a chain of logic to walk you through the point I was trying to make.

1) People don't want to die of cancer when treatments they can't afford should be covered by their insurance company.

2) In order to prevent the company from denying that claim and letting them die, we need to disallow them from denying the claim-- say because their medical records show that they once saw a doctor about a mole, and so that gets classified as a pre-existing condition and life-saving surgery and radiation therapy gets kiboshed.

3) If we disallow insurance companies from looking for pre-existing conditions they can deny claims for, then we have to make people buy health insurance before they get sick.  Otherwise the insurance companies go bankrupt.

4) In order to ensure that people buy that health insurance, we need IRS agents, apparently.

So the choice is-- let insurance companies screw people and cost them their health and lives, or... IRS agents.

Now, there are almost certainly other ways this can be done.  Maybe some of them are better, but no one here has proposed one.  I responded to the "what's not to like?" comment about laws and regulations and IRS agents by pointing out that I prefer them to the alternative that they are intended to fix-- i.e. the possibility that if I am the one asking my insurance company to help me beat cancer, they say "no."

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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It would make more sense to

Submitted by mamabear on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 10:37am.

It would make more sense to make laws to protect people from being dropped without cause, than to change the entire system into something that we know will cost more and will probably cover less.


But that's what they did.  The law prevents people from being dropped without cause by forbidding the practice they used to do it.  It also doesn't make sense to have a system where if someone has a preexisting condition and goes off the insurance books for awhile, they can't get back on.  All that does is increase the chances that their bills get covered by the rest of us, even if they could pay their own premiums.  And while we're on the subject, having it all tied to employment has always seemed bizarre.  Why should employers be responsible for our health?  These days people change jobs every five years.  If you have one major health incident in fifteen years, that means two insurance companies make bank off of you and one gets screwed, even though as an individual you might have paid in as much as you took out of the system.  That just seems like a strange way to do things to me.  It practically demands of insurance companies that they look for ways to avoid taking on older customers in order to protect their bottom line.  Knowing that young people also have to buy in gives them a cushion against those costs.
When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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The law prevents people from

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 10:02pm.

The law prevents people from being dropped without cause by forbidding the practice they used to do it.  Unfortunately the law does a lot more than that, which was my point, only fix what's broken.  The government shouldn't be putting it's nose into the parts that are working.   Health care was added by companies years ago when insurance rates were low.  It was a way of giving their employees something without having to raise the salaries of all the workers.  It didn't make employers responsible for our health, it was a benefit, or inducement, for their workers.  At that time people usually worked for one company their entire lives, so it made a lot of sense.   It would also really help auto insurance companies if everyone was forced to buy auto insurance, even if they didn't have a car, but they don't do that do they?  Living in a free country should entitle people to make their own decisions about what they want to buy or not buy.

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Unfortunately the law does a

Submitted by mamabear on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 9:53am.

Unfortunately the law does a lot more than that, which was my point, only fix what's broken


But they have to do more than that, otherwise the fix breaks something else.  If you tell insurance companies that they can't deny legitimate claims based on pre-existing conditions, but then don't make people buy health insurance-- people will only buy health insurance when they get sick, and drop it again when they are healthy!  The insurance companies would go down in flames!
When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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So maybe the government has

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 1:34pm.

So maybe the government has no business getting involved in telling insurance companies they must insure everyone no matter what.  I have a pre-existing condition, I can't switch companies.  Fine, I stick with what I've got.  I'm not entitled to get whatever I want simply because I want it.

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And if you had insurance

Submitted by mamabear on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 5:53pm.

And if you had insurance through your employer and lost your job last year?  What happens when COBRA runs out?

It really sounds like you are trying to rationalize our system like horrible things don't happen to people who are responsible.  It is just not true.  Whether or not those problems happen often, they ruin people's lives when they happen, and I think that's unacceptable. 

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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Sadly, life is full of things

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 6:36pm.

Sadly, life is full of things that ruin people's lives!  Our specific government was not created to prevent or solve these issues!  It was created to give people the freedom to solve them on their own!  To disallow government the power to prevent people from solving them!  You want the government to solve all these problems, not just for yourself and others who won't take responsibility for their lives, but for me!  Unacceptable!  You cannot protect people from life, and you only make them dependent when you try to!

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You define freedom as the

Submitted by mamabear on Mon, 01/03/2011 - 10:47am.

You define freedom as the choices you make.  I define freedom as the ability to make choices.

Poverty and poor health decrease freedom, they prevent people from making the choices that are so important to you.  Letting people fall into those sand pits does not make them more free, it makes them less free.

Rich people will always have options in a democratic society.  Even in most countries with socialized medicine rich people are free to pay extra for private health plans.  They can fly to other countries and get their health provided any damn way they choose.  I'm really not that worried about their freedom.  I'm worried about the freedom of people who don't have all of those options.

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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The freedom of people to make

Submitted by Radical1979 on Mon, 01/03/2011 - 12:24pm.

The freedom of people to make choices is based upon giving them my money to make those choices with.  Although there are some who are limited in what they can accomplish, this is still the country where people who start with nothing can rise up.  Your idea of giving them everything for free with no strings attached limits what they do for themselves.  Do you see immigrants who come to this country with absolutely nothing, work hard, save money, and enter the middle class?  But many of our inner city residents don't because they were taught the government should be giving them everything for free because someone else has it and so should they.  You know, Obama money?

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People can start from nothing

Submitted by mamabear on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:43am.

People can start from nothing and rise up-- it just requires luck in addition to hard work and dedication, and not everyone gets that break.  People who stay poor are not necessarily any less deserving of success than people who make it-- the belief that they are, I think , is just an attempt to avoid guilt over the fact that we let them stay poor.

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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This comment, we let them

Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 1:34pm.

This comment, we let them stay poor,
 says it all.  Yes, I do let people stay poor.  You know what, I let my kids stay after school if they got into trouble.  I let them miss after school activities if their grades were down.  I'm a mean person.  I believe people should suffer the consequences of their actions or inactions.  I give people a hand up, but not a hand out.  I have no guilt over any of this.

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Would you let your kids be

Submitted by mamabear on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 6:10pm.

Would you let your kids be disciplined by the school if you knew that the trouble they were in was not their fault-- caused neither by their actions or inactions but an unfortunate circumstance?

While I can imagine some lessons you might intend to teach your children by letting them suffer consequences they didn't deserve, responsibility wouldn't be one of them!

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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So you're equating not paying

Submitted by Radical1979 on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 8:21pm.

So you're equating not paying for healthcare for people to punishing them? 

Twisted logic to say the least.

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No, I'm equating the

Submitted by mamabear on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 8:45am.

No, I'm equating the consequences of a severe health crisis-- loss of job, money, mobility, potential enjoyment of life-- with punishment that people do nothing to deserve.  I think letting that happen to people is equivalent to letting the school punish your child when he/she didn't deserve it.

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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Look, the percentage of folks

Submitted by Boudin on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 10:29pm.

screwed like this completely bogas example, has to be less then .001%. That does not justify ruining our HC system, and putting together hundreds of punitive rules and laws! This is nuts, and so are the apologist

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Cases like that resulted in

Submitted by mamabear on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 12:45am.

Cases like that resulted in one punitive rule-- insurance companies will no longer be allowed to deny claims based on preexisting conditions.  That prevents them from ruining the lives of loyal customers, but in turn means that we need to protect the insurance companies from people who would defraud them by waiting until they get sick to buy insurance and then cancelling it as soon as they get better.

I don't think it's nuts.  I think it would have worked pretty well if we'd included a public option to help keep premiums down.  Instead, this will result in everyone having to buy health insurance and only total public outrage will remain as an incentive for insurance companies to not rob us blind.  Hopefully the exchanges will promote more competition than currently exists and that will keep a ceiling on premiums, but I think it remains to be seen whether that system will work.

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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Full of it

Submitted by Boudin on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 12:56am.

I think it would have worked pretty well if we'd included a public option to help keep premiums down.

So genus, when has the fed ever subsidized anything and lowered the price? You are remarkably dense, you need to learn and understand the words consequence and prudence

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Not to mention the fact that

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 1:19am.

Not to mention the fact that the government doesn't have to break even, so they can afford to provide care at a loss until private insurance companies are driven out of business.  Then we can all receive substandard care like they do in Cuba and Great Britian.

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Well, that would lower our

Submitted by mamabear on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 10:47am.

Well, that would lower our costs...

but seriously, the public option that was proposed and rejected was specifically disallowed from running at a loss in order to prevent that problem.  We do have a little control over how these things can work when we create them!

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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Really?  And what, exactly,

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sat, 01/01/2011 - 10:03pm.

Really?  And what, exactly, would happen, to prevent the program from running at a loss?  I don't recall anyone planning on any government program to run at a loss, but they do!

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Well, rules.  I mean, other

Submitted by mamabear on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 9:56am.

Well, rules.  I mean, other entitlement programs aren't required to be solvent, so they aren't.  If you stipulate that the premiums charged by the program have to balance the budget at the end of the year, then the premiums go up if outlays go up.

We could make similar rules for other programs, but we don't.

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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Do you think other programs

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 1:33pm.

Do you think other programs were created with the intention that they would be insolvent?  If not, do you really think having a rule will change anything?

Why is it that it's o.k. for a government entity to raise prices as costs go up, but not a private insurance company?  Because every time private insurance tries to raise rates liberals scream and carry on about it.   What happens when the insured cannot pay the increased price of the premiums?  Will the government just drop their coverage? 

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You are so mistrustful!  You

Submitted by mamabear on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 5:58pm.

You are so mistrustful!  You set a rule that premiums are directly determined by costs.  You make it happen automatically.  You provide no mechanism for government support of the program, and money never comes in except for premiums.  I don't see the big deal.

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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Mistrustful?!

Submitted by Radical1979 on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 6:31pm.

Oh my, I think you mean cognizant of how our government works!  You have yet to cite one government program that stays on budget!  Can you cite any that are withour rampant fraud and abuse?!  Because the government has yet to prove it can run anything without fraud and waste!

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But I can turn that right

Submitted by mamabear on Mon, 01/03/2011 - 10:53am.

But I can turn that right around-- the military.  Full of rampant fraud and abuse.  Completely incapable of finishing wars on schedule or on budget.  Therefore, the government  has no business running it. 

Does that sound ridiculous?  I feel the same way about health care!  It seems completely ill suited to management by market forces and for-profit companies.  We want competition and efficiency in some very important parts of our health care system.  But in other areas service to the public good requires all of these rules and regulations that just don't fit well with corporate business.  We really want, as a society, for everyone to be able to get some help when they are ill or injured.  In the end, that will make us more productive and thus wealthier.  But that is really weird to do in a private system.

I think the public option, competing with private companies, would have served that function without completely disrupting the parts of our system that work, or at least, could work.

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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Straw man agrument!  And you

Submitted by Radical1979 on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 8:14pm.

Straw man agrument!  And you haven't answered the question!

The role of government is to protect it's country from foreign powers so that people can live their lives in freedom!  Providing health care is not! 

Try answering my question!

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YOU think the job of

Submitted by mamabear on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 8:47am.

YOU think the job of government is to protect its citizens.  I think that is one part of the government's job, and providing for the general welfare of its citizens is another.

You can't use that as a factual argument as though everyone in this country agrees with you!

When a man makes up his mind without evidence, no evidence disproving his opinion will change his mind- Robert Heinlein
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A complete fool.

Submitted by NL207 on Sun, 01/02/2011 - 3:28pm.

Are you so blind that you are totally unable to appreaciate the lessons of history?  There is not one government entitlement program that has run within its original cost estimates in the entire history of entitlemnents in this country, and that includes Social Security.  You want to avoid losing this debate?  Show me a Federal social program in this country that is currently running within its original cost estimates.

Otherwise, you are simply a delusional nut case promoting fairy tale social programs without any financial basis and or responsibility.

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Washington and cost projections

Submitted by justasimplepatriot on Fri, 12/31/2010 - 9:47am.

In 1966 the House Ways and Means Committee provided a "conservative cost projection" for Medicare.  They projected the 1990 costs would be 12 Billion dollars.  The Actual 1990 Medicare costs were $107 Billion.  They missed - by 892%.

Does anyone think the cost projections for Obamacare will fare any better?

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I don't know, there's been so

Submitted by KiraShannen on Tue, 08/30/2011 - 7:57pm.

Great article, I'll come back with a comment later.

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