Open Thread: Media Get It Wrong Again as Secular Egyptian Parties Fail
After what seemed like a successful overthrow of the Egyptian government during the Arab Spring, giving way for a possibly freer and more democratic government, experts from the Obama administration to academia to media commentators were all proclaiming the students who overthrew Hosni Mubarak's regime would be the same ones to bring the democratic values to a new Egyptian government. Many conservative journalists had long feared the opposite, noting that the power vacuum could also give rise to radical Islamic politics, especially in the Muslim Brotherhood.
Now that the election results are partially in, it seems that the conservative journalists were correct. Check out an election summary after the break, and let us know your thoughts in the comments.
After cheering for the downfall of Mubarak, none of the American supporters believed the Muslim Brotherhood could cause any damage, seeing them as a weak group who had merely been propped up to appear as oppositional to Mubarak's government. Now that some of the votes have been tallied, as explained by Tony Blankley in the Washington Times, it appears conservative journalists were right all along:
The early returns are in. (There are still two more rounds of voting in 18 of the country’s 27 provinces over the next month.) The Islamists look likely to get 65 percent 70 percent of the eventual vote. According to the High Election Commission, the Islamic fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood’s Freedom and Justice Party got about 36 percent, while the Salafist Nour Party got a stunning 25 percent. The Salafists are the hysterical wing of the fundamentally reactionary general Muslim population, while the Brotherhood is merely the fanatical wing.
The grand total for all the parties that, by the ancient cultural standards of Pharaonic Egypt, are considered the liberal-secular bloc - the makers of the glorious Arab Spring democracy was, wait for it - 13 percent. I predict that if any of them try to practice any of that liberal-secular stuff in public, either the military eventually will lock them up or the Salafists eventually will beat them up or kill them on the street. Adios, liberal-secular Egypt, we hardly new ya. Hello, kill the Coptic Christians and the Jews.
Since the liberal media have realized they were wrong, they are trying to label the Muslim Brotherhood as moderate, despite the fact that the Muslim Brotherhood's platform includes aiding the "Palestinian resistance against the Zionist usurpers of their homeland" and states "death for the sake of God is the highest of our aspirations," neither of which are moderate by any stretch.
Are you surprised by the election results and the way the media are spinning the results?
- NB Staff's blog
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Comments
At what point do they admit they were wrong?
Submitted by JLin on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 10:52am.
The Vichy Media are worse than useless. They are dangerous impediments to truth and information that is critical to everyone's welfare.
My Cousin
Submitted by Walker01049 on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 11:13am.
escaped Eqypt right after the "Arab Spring" after seeing the writing on the wall. She was there for over 10 years and was a professor who had her work visa yanked. She now is having a wonderful time living in a retirement community in Arizona. Probably wonders why she lived in Egypt so long. Obama and his administration love to see the uprising in the world. They pray for the same will happen here and it is starting. Only then can they tighten their controls over the American citizens and transfer our (middle class) wealth to their minions (democrat voters). Watch your IRA's, 401K's and property confiscated. Obama's socialist soldiers have said as much. Don't think it can't happen here? Just think about how this Community-Organizer-in-Chief is bankrupting our Country. To what end?? Just think what that ass can do with another four years.
P.S. You're retired - the two of you living in a big house that's paid for. What right do you have to live your middle class existence when your house could serve a fifth generation welfare family with six or seven kids. You can get by with a one bedroom apartment. Get it?
You mean...
Submitted by DumbCanuck on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 11:14am.
...the media LIED???
Who saw that one coming? (rhetorical quesion, folks.)
"There... Are... Four... Lights!"
I was happy to see the Egyptia regime fall.
Submitted by Ashrak on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 11:23am.
I am also happy to see Old Media have to eat its words about what would happen after it did.
The real face of today's Islam is showing, just as Barry's real face is showing, because people can see with their eyes what is happening, as opposed to seeing what "will" happen as the "news" goes about "reporting" it.
Sometimes, folks have to be hit over the head with a brick of truth in order to stop their pie in the sky denials that are so often based on their utopian world view wishlists.
Egypt is showing what so many warned it would, just like Barry is. Imagine that. It is the same folks who were correct about both.
Now we be a good time to
Submitted by Brock on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 12:00pm.
Now we be a good time to repost the "Nail Ferguson/Morning Joe Clip"
We were right
Submitted by jon_torlin on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 12:07pm.
People like Dave, myself and others on here who said the Muslim Brotherhood were working on and could very well succeed at their takeover of Egypt were right about this.
And there's even a news blurb that said if there's any attempt on "manipulating the vote" and it isn't in favor of the Brotherhood, they will take to the streets. Let there be no doubt.
WE WERE RIGHT!
These are the same people that Barry Soetoro worked with behind the scenes leading up to this, thus once again revealing his Muslim connections, and again WE WERE RIGHT!
Now will people buy a clue and realize that this manchurian candidate is not an incompetent that people think he is?
-Jon
jon, Yeah, it helps to survive on a public forum...
Submitted by Dave. on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 2:17pm.
...when you actually know the real history of Islam, as well as the reason the Muslim Brotherhood was brought into being in the first place - especially during this particular point in history.
When you do, everything now happening in that region makes perfect sense, as it is all just a means to an end, and we all know what that end will be if the Islamists have their way and the West doesn't very soon pull its head out of its nether region.
And there is no way this is all happening by accident, as I do not believe in coincidences.
And you are correct when it comes to Barack Hussein Obama.
-He knows exactly what he is doing - at least in this area.
-Dave
Vote for the American in November
Media got it right
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 12:09pm.
The media knew the Muslim Brotherhood would prevail.
The Media and the President agree that Israel is a small price to pay for world peace.
It sickens me.
Not 1989
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 12:27pm.
What have I been saying here and elsewhere for the past year? It isn't 1989 in the Middle East.
Sometimes it sucks to be right, and this is one of those times.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
And now for something completely different...
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 12:34pm.
Here's an idea I have been kicking around in my head a bit these past few days...
We know that all of the candidates on the Republican side have their flaws, but at the same time, we know His Majesty The Shahinshah MUST go. So, what I was thinking of was this - a bit of a radical departure:
Maybe I got this idea from watching a lot of Prime Minister's Questions in the British Parliament on YouTube. But as many of you know there is a cabinet of ministers along with the Prime Minister, and the leader of the opposition also has his "shadow cabinet". But I was thinking: what would you think if a candidate announced who he would appoint to his/her cabinet if he/she got elected? I'm thinking that a benefit to that would be that we could see how a candidate would account for his/her shortcomings (meaning, a candidate could be perceived as being iffy in foreign policy, but by appointing ______ as SecState, that would be a serious help in that area).
Thoughts?
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
I like it, Unsane
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 12:40pm.
Darrel Issa for Atty Gen.
John Bolton - SecState And
Submitted by Scuba Dude on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 3:10pm.
John Bolton - SecState
And for libturd exploding head value - Dick Cheney - Dept of Energy. BWAAAA HAAAAA HAAAA HAAAA
Proposed cabinet:
Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 3:41pm.
Bolton - SecState
North- SecDef
Cuccinelli- DoJ
Rhee- Education
Perry- EPA
Forbes- Treasury
Walker- Labor
Koch- Energy
Koch- Interior
Palin- HHS
etc.
Amendments, BK
Submitted by Blonde on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 4:00pm.
Bachmann - HHS (on point to overturn O-Care)
Palin - Energy
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
Good ones J
Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 4:25pm.
I thought of Palin for HHS because of the death panels, but Bachmann will dismantle it equally well. Palin knows drilling, so Energy is perfect for her. I thought the Koch brothers should get positions if for nothing else, than to send libs over the edge. We'll have to find another spot for brother number 1. Or 2. Whichever. They just need prominent jobs in the next administration. Maybe OMB?
As a Conservative, I knew the Arab Spring would see the rise...
Submitted by Conservator on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 12:36pm.
...of Islamist control of the Middle East. However, I was surprise to read an article in The Post sounding the alarm about the Arab Winter.
After the hope of the Arab Spring, the chill of an Arab Winter - Sunday, December 4, 2011
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/after-the-hope-of-the-arab-spring...
"One year after a Tunisian fruit vendor set himself on fire in an act of defiance that would ignite protests and unseat long-standing dictatorships, a harsh chill is settling over the Arab world. The peaceful demonstrations in Bahrain, Egypt, Libya, Syria and Yemen that were supposed to bring democracy have instead given way to bloodshed and chaos, with the forces of tyranny trying to turn back the clock.
It is too soon to say that the Arab Spring is gone, never to resurface. But the Arab Winter has clearly arrived..."
OK, let's look at this: Egypt, Libya, etc...
Submitted by KyWriter on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 12:59pm.
Tyrannical despots being replaced by tyrannical, despotic, Islamist mobs, all of whom want to wipe Israel off the map. In Iran, every protest by common people yearning for freedom smacked down by a tyrannical, despotic Islamist government and nary a word from Barry O about it. Great job, dude: if you push it, you can have the entire Middle East under tyrannical, despotic Islamist, anti-Israeli control by the end of your term. (Incidentally, the last one you will get.)
This
Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 1:08pm.
from February 3rd. Eleven months ago. It's not rocket science.
Well played, BK
Submitted by Blonde on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 2:34pm.
.
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
Thanks J
Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 2:45pm.
Got your message, btw.
Glad, BK.
Submitted by Blonde on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 2:46pm.
It's exasperating. I can either use my phone (at which I am spastic) or just wait. Alas.
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
CBS Moneyline
Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 1:09pm.
not a big fan of the Bureau of Labor Services; or the media's reporting on the November unemployment numbers.
Shhhhhh....
Submitted by capav on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 1:43pm.
The Arab Spring was on 24/7 about it's greatness. Does anyone remember Morning Joe raising it to the level of the world becoming one big peace sign? I sure do. In fact, Joe Scarborough had the back round of his twitter page a memorial to Tahrir Square. I mentioned it a few times on twitter and Voila!, he changed his back round page. Believe me, it was there since the uprising until last week. Have you heard about the elections on MoJo?? I didn't think so. Heaven forbid we acknowledge we were wrong. Especially since Joe constantly brags about how right he is about everything to do with Republicans. He's a joke and if you disagree with him on twitter (not hateful words, just facts), he blocks you. Talk about thin skinned and a "bad" (politically of course) person!
Yes, yes. Do you remember
Submitted by Brock on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 1:55pm.
Yes, yes. Do you remember when Nail(sp) Ferguson was on and destroyed them. Somebody needs to re post that clip.
Hay Egypt take a look at your southern neighbor, Sudan.
Submitted by upcountrywater on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 1:52pm.
That is where you are headed, the dirt road to machete land. Aloha Civilization, the good news is the first thing to go is an "air force".
... “The Arab Spring is born again today,” Ennahda leader Rachid Channouchi told reporters after casting his vote. “Not in the negative way of toppling dictators, but in the positive way of building a democratic system that represents the people.”
Riiight, we the people........
Not one original idea,just a rip-off
You Didn't Build That.
How will this play in Islamic Egypt?
Submitted by Blonde on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 2:36pm.
US to use foreign aid to promote gay rights
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Obama administration is announcing a wide-ranging effort to use U.S. foreign aid to promote rights for gays and lesbians abroad, including combating attempts by foreign governments to criminalize homosexuality.
In a memorandum issued Tuesday, President Barack Obama directed U.S. agencies working abroad, including the State Department and the U.S. Agency for International Development, to use foreign aid to assist gays and lesbians who are facing human rights violations. And he ordered U.S. agencies to protect vulnerable gay and lesbian refugees and asylum seekers.
"The struggle to end discrimination against lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender persons is a global challenge, and one that is central to the United States' commitment to promoting human rights," Obama said in a statement.
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
It paints a big target
Submitted by jon_torlin on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 2:44pm.
It paints a very large target for jihadists to come after us because we are vile infidels that must be destroyed because that stuff is being promoted. What better way to speed up the cause of Islam than that?
-Jon
And I guess we pay for this
Submitted by ThisnThat on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 4:29pm.
And I guess we pay for this with our surplus -- or maybe add another surtax on all those "undeserving" or "lucky" $250K millionaires?
__________
“Didn't win the Medal of Honor? Didn't even serve? Then lie about it. We'll support you." — 9th Circuit Court
MMM-kay, meddling in the internal affairs of another
Submitted by UpNorth on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 9:17pm.
country? If dems and Obama do it, mucho bueno. If Republicans do it, not bueno so much.
Because Obama and Hillary's intentions are good, I guess.
Ah, the moral strength of this lesbian;
Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 2:47pm.
she's got a powerful message.
o'bama's 'great speech' today
Submitted by ThisnThat on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 3:28pm.
Can you say "recycled"? From the buildup, some people might have expected more than this. I could only take 4 minutes before throwing the shoe at the TV. But in this four minutes (at 1;15) I learned that:
This is simply a Republican-bashing speech. This man's a heaping, smelly pile of fresh cow manure. No class. No self-respect. No respect for truth. He's the worst partisan hack we've ever had for a so-called president. What a POS.
__________
“Didn't win the Medal of Honor? Didn't even serve? Then lie about it. We'll support you." — 9th Circuit Court
awesome feeling
Submitted by jon_torlin on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 3:37pm.
That gives me such a feeling of awesome peace and contentment that he tells us these things.
If not for him, I would never know who to blame for all my woes.
I can't wait to have my taxes raised some more so that I can get more soup from the government for Christmas.
-Jon
Cheer on the Muslims*
Submitted by cajun2 on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 3:57pm.
But woe are those pesky Christians
And since this is the OT, let me just throw in this very interesting story
Thanks!
Submitted by Zilla of the Re... on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 4:43pm.
Thank you for sharing my post!
No problem Zilla*
Submitted by cajun2 on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 5:02pm.
It was easy to post, it is a darn good article.
Thanks again, I'm glad you
Submitted by Zilla of the Re... on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 6:13pm.
Thanks again, I'm glad you liked it!
Look who it is
Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 5:22pm.
Long time Zilla- hope you're well.
Hi!
Submitted by Zilla of the Re... on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 6:14pm.
I'm doin' fine, thanks, still the same cantankerous blogger, only somewhat more widely read these days. :)
I really should be haunting the comments section here more often, I finally remembered my password!
CAj, NPR twisted themselves in knots in the story on Torpy.
Submitted by UpNorth on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 9:35pm.
First they claimed that he was upset because his unit prayed before "deployment", then Torpy says, "So as the commander of this convoy (said), ‘Everybody come in and we’re going to do a prayer first together". So, it's not about a deployment, it's about one convoy. And then, Torpy said, "We’re not going to talk about communications, we’re not going to talk about route planning, we’re not going to talk about first aid, we’re not going to talk about maintenance". The time to worry about comms, first aid, route planning and maintenance is not when the convoy is ready to roll out the gate. That should be done, at least at the pre-mission brief, if not before then. I wouldn't follow Torpy to the PX, much less on a convoy, or even out the gate of a FOB
Then this leader of men, this epitome of the professional soldier says, after admitting he "opted out" of the mission, "Now the person that was in command was a major so I was still stepping outside – he was extremely unhappy about it. He said. “Why are you creating trouble?” And I said, “Why are you creating trouble? Why are you excluding me from this activity? This is a military mission, and I support your right to pray, but right this second we have a military mission, and for to use your power to pull everyone in to do a Christian prayer is wrong.” So, Torpy was "excluded" because the Major chose to have a prayer before they departed the base on a convoy? He was so butthurt that he opted not to go. One of two things followed his decision, someone else had to be found to take his place, or the convoy left one soldier short. This guy is despicable.
sad story upnorth*
Submitted by cajun2 on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 10:16pm.
Every article I have read about this guy Torpy and his whining, not once did they ever mention that the other guys were sharing their beliefs fearful they may not come back alive. Putting themselves in danger and deny them the right to comfort each other in their religious beliefs cause it made YOU uncomfortable.
I am Sick of Liberals....
"When the Time is Right"
Submitted by ThisnThat on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 3:57pm.
Pelosi will release "Damaging Information" about Newt Gringrich -- when the time is right.
Isn't this blackmail? "Drop out of the race, Newt. Or else."
A direct threat against a presidential candidate. And no on in the Dim party is saying "whoa". No MSM person is condemning her. What's going on here, other than one party trying to gain control of this country by any means possible? In plain sight, no less. I listened to a MSM person already defending her. "Free speech, you know. She can say anything she wants". Just another POS on the national landscape.
__________
“Didn't win the Medal of Honor? Didn't even serve? Then lie about it. We'll support you." — 9th Circuit Court
ANOTHER GAFFE!!!!!
Submitted by Scuba Dude on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 4:18pm.
President Downgrade confuses Texas with Kansas!!!!!
Flag it
Submitted by jon_torlin on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 4:41pm.
There's a flag behind him that says Kansas. It's right there.
That looks like an intentional joke. It's not funny.
-Jon
I heard that Scooby
Submitted by Blonde on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 6:52pm.
Hit Number 104!
Que'lle idiot.
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
When isn't the MSM wrong?
Submitted by Zilla of the Re... on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 4:48pm.
I called it back in January. Same with all the other Arab Spring countries. Living with the lamestreammedia is like the "Grounhog Day" movie version of what the kids call opposite day.
They are also all wrong about who the real racists are in this country, the same people who the real racists have ALWAYS been.
The Arab Spring is the flowering of the Bush Democracy Project
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 4:55pm.
which had conservatives such as Charles Krauthammer even in 2005 absolutely giddy over the prior administration's gradual dissolution of our long-standing strategic clinch with Middle Eastern autocracies (read: Hosni Mubarak, for example).
Dr. Krauthammer rhapsodizes:
Right on what? That America, using power harnessed to democratic ideals, could begin a transformation of the Arab world from endless tyranny and intolerance to decent governance and democratization. Two years ago, shortly before the invasion of Iraq, I argued in these pages that forcefully deposing Saddam Hussein was, more than anything, about America "coming ashore" to effect a "pan-Arab reformation"--a dangerous, "risky and, yes, arrogant" but necessary attempt to change the very culture of the Middle East, to open its doors to democracy and modernity.
The Administration went ahead with this great project knowing it would be hostage to history. History has begun to speak. Elections in Afghanistan, a historic first. Elections in Iraq, a historic first. Free Palestinian elections producing a moderate leadership, two historic firsts. Municipal elections in Saudi Arabia, men only, but still a first. In Egypt, demonstrations for democracy--unheard of in decades--prompting the dictator to announce free contested presidential elections, a historic first.
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1034732,00.html#ixzz1fm...
By the way, those historic, free, contested presidential elections resulted in the Muslim Brotherhood gaining a significant political foothold in the Egyptian parliament.
Yes, Dr. Krauthammer, history began to speak and still continues to speak. And one day it may fully vindicate the loftiest of your neocon dreams of Muslim democracies. So far, however, the message is mixed at best, and, in some cases--as the promise of Spring slams into the cold reality of a dangerous Winter--one can only dream that a few of the more prominent Muslim speakers would shut up and sit down.
Jer
Interesting. Because I've
Submitted by NC Cop on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 5:15pm.
Interesting. Because I've seen where several lefties are crediting Obama with the Arab spring. I guess when it was a GOOD thing, Obama gets credit, but when things start going south, it's Bush's fault.
How original!
NC Cop...
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 5:40pm.
The Arab Spring was being widely hailed six to seven years ago during the middle of the Bush presidency. That said, I don't absolve the current administration of blame for the pitfalls and the uncertain direction of the revolutionary tide sweeping the Middle East. Our response has been uneven at best and at times agonizingly inept--suggesting a lack of preparation for developments which should have been eminently foreseeable. While events have literally screamed for a consistent and coherent policy, there has been anything but from this administration.
Jer
I hear what you're saying, Jer.
Submitted by NC Cop on Wed, 12/07/2011 - 2:29pm.
However, some one the left actually believe that Obama was the reason for the Arab spring. Or at least want to take credit for it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/avi-spiegel/arab-spring-obama-speech_b_865...
"The president even harkened back to his speech in Cairo two years ago as if to suggest that he was ahead of the curve -- that it was his oratory that foreshadowed, perhaps even helped spearhead, the dramatic change taking place today."
Now me persoally, I don't think either President was "responsible" for the Arab Spring. I think it was just an idea whose time had come, but that's just me.
If you think about it.....
Submitted by jon_torlin on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 5:59pm.
I have to wonder how it occurred, but I suspect CAIR or the Bro'Hood got to Bush because remember how he kept saying that Islam is the religion of peace? He either got snookered into thinking that, or he got forced into thinking that and they kept going on and on about how we shouldn't target all Muslims, just the jihadists. I do know the Bro'Hood have met with Bush before.
I'm thinking it's being snookered because look at how easily they lie about how they aren't going to go after us even though that's their plan all along, to conquer us.
-Jon
...one can only dream that a
Submitted by cajun2 on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 5:21pm.
...one can only dream that a few of the more prominent Muslim speakers would shut up and sit down......
Can't disagree with you on that one Jer, but it may not be so easy, even in a country like ours.
Wrong ones are being told to shut up and sit down
Now ....
Submitted by NL207 on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 5:41pm.
If as you headline, it is the evil and incompetent BUSH who initiated this ill-considered policy, then pray tell, why did the wise and just Obama not reverse this course???
It is apparent that Obama liked what he saw and put the pedal to the metal, is it not? So who are the bigger fools? Bush and Krauthammer, who postulated an unwise, non-providential foreign policy, OR, Obama and Hillary Clinton, who blindly ignored evidence this policy was flawed and accelerated it purely upon ideological grounds?
Evil and incompetent are your words, NL...
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 5:44pm.
not mine.
In any event, see my response to NC Cop which I posted while you were composing your little screed.
Jer
Your confession is accepted.
Submitted by NL207 on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 6:41pm.
I think you were completely unjustified headlining Bush in your original post. He was not a conservative in many respects and this idea he had that he could reform Islam through Democritization and nation building was one of his worst.
However, Obama is downright dangerous. He clearly sees Bush's misguided policy as a fine opportunity for him to advance his leftwing agenda. He, like most others on the left, fail to see the danger to themselves should the Islamists prevail in their struggle to topple Western Civilization. So why not headline your post with Obama? He is even more guilty than Bush because he has the benefit of hindsight and experience to tell him Bush's policy is wrong, yet he persists with it. That is downright foolish.
NL...
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 6:52pm.
I don't think this website is suffering from a scarcity of anti-Obama headlines, nor is it endangered by my reference to Bush in one of my own in order to broaden the Arab Spring perspective.
Plus, the NB Staff narrative is simplistic and one-sided. I recall few articles by "liberal" pundits and Mid East specialists which ignored the possible ascendancy of the Muslim Brotherhood after the fall of Mubarak.
Jer
Simplistic? One Sided?
Submitted by NL207 on Wed, 12/07/2011 - 1:06am.
And you do not think this describes the mainstream media's fawning presentation of the 'Arab Spring' as a miraculous manifestation of Obama's 'enlightened' foreign policy?
Even you must concede the MSM's reporting of the fall of Mubarak was downright ignorant and deserving of the castigation it has received here.
I'll concede there was far too much media fawning over
Submitted by Jer on Wed, 12/07/2011 - 1:28am.
Obama, especially during the campaign and the early stages of his presidency. I think there is less of it now, nor did there appear to be excessive cheerleading over his handling of the Arab Spring developments that I noticed. Maybe I missed it or have grown accustomed to it.
Jer
⇒ Arab Spring Cheerleading
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 12/07/2011 - 1:49am.
Lara Logan's assault was unimportant to CBS as a legitimate news story for about a week before the Network reported it.
Certainly allowed for a more celebratory presentation of the Tahrir Square pageantry, not having to deal with the subject of a bunch of rapist Muslims who have been allowed by their god to sexually abuse infidels.
Wouldn't want to report chants of "Jew! Jew!" along with this flowering of Democratic freedom.
I'm sure there's a "personal consideration" barricade behind which CBS feels it can hide, but it just doesn't work.
Answer this honestly. If the same had occurred at a Tea Party Rally, would CBS have withheld the story?
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger, Jer. I've grown accustomed to it also.
Cool...
Submitted by Jer on Wed, 12/07/2011 - 2:07am.
A Tea Party Rally assault? It would have been the lead story on every network news broadcast.
But, refresh my memory. Did CBS, with full knowledge of the circumstances of the Logan sexual attack, deliberately withhold the unsavory details of the story in order to further the narrative of a 'triumph of democracy' event in the Muslim world?
Jer
⇒ Don't know, Jer
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 12/07/2011 - 2:25am.
I can't think of one good reason CBS would sit on the exclusive.
It's my belief that a Free Press, exempt from taxation in order that government influence is less likely exerted, assumes a fiduciary responsibility (toward the citizen) to report the news in a timely manner.
Too often that responsibility is shirked in favor of an all too transparent agenda.
Clarification?
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 12/07/2011 - 10:52am.
and this idea he had that he could reform Islam through Democritization and nation building was one of his worst. Are you saying that democracy isn't something predominantly Islamic nations can grasp?
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
I am saying ....
Submitted by NL207 on Fri, 12/09/2011 - 5:10pm.
That John Adams was right : “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
Islam may be religious, but any society that sanctions Honor Killiings, beheadings, and Jihad is not a moral society in the vernacular of John Adams. Attempting to institute tops-down a Democracy or a Republic in such a society is a futile task.
Consider...
Submitted by Unsane on Fri, 12/09/2011 - 11:23pm.
I get that point, but Turkey and Indonesia have functioning democracies. India is a functioning democracy with a sizeable Muslim minority. Malaysia, while FAR from a perfect democracy with quite a few flaws (such as institutionalized racism and a draconian Internal Security Act), still functions in a democracy which has become somewhat competitive as of late.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Booooooosh
Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 6:10pm.
What a joke, Jer. You're discrediting yourself.
Feel free to hammer me, bk...
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 6:20pm.
but at least state your reason for doing so. Otherwise, you only discredit yourself.
Jer
How about
Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 6:29pm.
Really, nothing more needs to be added. But just to clarify, it seems now that this little foreign policy debacle can't be hidden under the guise of a quest for democracy, some people are trying to find a six-year old connection to Bush as the reason for it's failure. Though, maybe you can point to all of the accolades heaped upon the Bush administration back in January when the Tunisian government was overthrown.
What?
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 7:10pm.
Do you honestly believe there is no connection between the reduction of support for Mubarak by the Bush administration--with the accompanying pressure for free elections and encouragement of "democratic" elements within Egypt--and the eventual collapse of Mubarak's regime?
If so, that is surprisingly naive, bk.
Jer
Clearly, the regime
Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 7:17pm.
would not have collapsed without the Obama administrations push. That gave it credibility and NATO nations agreed. There would have been no reason for the Egyptian Army to turn on Mubarak otherwise. It was only when the Army ceased their suppression efforts that Mubarak fell. Bush did not convince them to do that. And now, they surely regret that course of action.
You almost seem to think the Egyptian people actually overthrew their government. That Jer, is naive.
"Clearly", huh? That's an awfully bold proclamation for what
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 7:30pm.
is nothing more than mere conjecture.
On the other hand, "you almost seem to think, etc.": Not so bold.
Jer
Yeah, maybe you're right Jer
Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 8:07pm.
after all, David beat Goliath, why couldn't a bunch of undereducated, unfunded, deweaponized rock throwers overthrow the Egyptian Army?
Facepalm.
scorecard
Submitted by MrShy on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 8:18pm.
BK - 1
Jerry - zilch
Shy - vinyl
Join Mr. Shy and The 1* Percent
If Bush planned this for Egypt and Libya,
Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 8:44pm.
Then why not Saudi Arabia and Jordan? They have the same type of Governments. Absolutely ridiculous, now we'll claim that our benevolent Leader is completely innocent of our very own OWS protest. Fact is, Obama wants strife, he wants upheaval. He is a cretin who thinks he can manipulate the masses into thanking him for saving the world.
Run along, Shy...
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 9:35pm.
You're cluttering up the thread.
Jer
Right, bk...those undereducated "judges, doctors, university
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 9:32pm.
professors, lawyers, journalists, artists" and part-time rock throwers.
From Foreign Affairs Quarterly:
http://During the first two weeks of the revolution, labor movements and professional groups did not play a visible role, partly because the regime had shut down all economic activity during this time. However, during the final week, as economic activity resumed, workers and professionals began to organize strikes. In the two days preceding Mubarak's resignation, the country was approaching a state of total civil disobedience, with workers striking en masse in the transportation, communications, and industrial sectors. Judges, doctors, university professors, lawyers, journalists, and artists also organized protests. According to Shady El Ghazaly Harb, a leading Egyptian youth activist, it was this development that finally convinced the military to oust Mubarak and assume control.
So, here are a few points to remember:
a. David proved that Goliaths aren't necessarily invincible;
b. In the latter part of the 18th century, a ragtag colonial army brought the pre-eminent military power in the world to its knees;
c. The Egyptian military doesn't like to ride losing horses.
Jer
Good grief,
Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 9:44pm.
So what does this have to do with Bush being the biggest reason Egypt is currently being ruled by thugs, as you were saying?
Also, are you now trying to convince us all, that it was only the professionals in Egypt that were trying successfully so, to overthrow the Gov. My bet is, when the tyranny starts, the first ones out are going to be the very professionals that are referred to here.
I'm saying none of those things, Boudin...
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 9:51pm.
but I'm not surprised at your efforts to distort what I did say.
Why not read the article. You can subscribe for free.
Jer
I tried, but your link (above) dont work
Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 10:01pm.
Although I dont understand how I distorted anything you projected. I simply asked a question (which you failed to answer) and made a statement. You really need to explain your nonsense below.
The link works for me.
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 10:10pm.
It opens the Foreign Affairs website with an intro to the article "The Fall of the Pharaoh", but you must register to read the rest of it.
I never stated that Bush was the biggest reason for the Egyptian revolution, much less for the rule by thugs. Nor did I claim that the judges, doctors, professors, etc. were the only ones seeking Mubarak's removal. And I didn't "project" it either, whatever that means.
Jer
You didnt eh,
Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 10:20pm.
Yea sure. Your headline was "Bush", but now, not so much. And your link (the orange paragraph) does not work.
So why dont you try again, and explain to (poor thick me) what your above post should mean to the reader? In the context of a reply to er, BK's post.
Ah yes,
Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 10:10pm.
that bastion of higher education known as Cairo has masterfully produced doctors and lawyers and journalists and artists with the highly intellectual power of impenetrable skin and the ability to thwart the weight of a tank as it rolls over their supreme elite beings.
Oh wait, it was the strikes that did it. That's it, the power of the picket line. No artillery piece known to man can move the almighty picket line.
Jeeze, Jer. I'm amazed at the simplicity with which you view that situation. IT WAS MONEY, JER. Obama said Mubarak had to go or we'd stop funding their military. No US dollars, no Egyptian generals living like pharaohs. See how this works? It's always the money Jer.
As for your other comparisons:
Please give this one up. In this case, you're out of your depth.
bk...you sound like a man who knows what he's talking...
Submitted by Jer on Wed, 12/07/2011 - 12:06am.
wait..make that a man who thinks he knows what he's talking about.
As such, I'm sure you'll have no trouble in linking that "Obama said Mubarak had to go or we'd stop funding their military" ultimatum thing. That's not how I recall the US policy trajectory vis a vis Egypt earlier this year, but then I'm clearly out of my depth so I'll defer to your expertise. But, first, humor me with some sourcing, okay?
Here, I'll get the ball rolling with this Feb. 9 LA Times article excerpt:
White House officials said earlier in the crisis that they would review the aid if the Mubarak government didn't move promptly toward political reform. But within a few days, officials clarified that they weren't considering cuts to aid.
Administration officials are trying to preserve their relationship with the military, which they see as vital for carrying out political reforms.
Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates praised the Egyptian military Tuesday for its restraint and emphasized the need for the Egyptian government to move at a "steady pace" to enact promised reforms.
"My hope would be other governments in the region, seeing this spontaneous action in both Tunisia and in Egypt, will take measures to begin moving in a positive direction toward addressing the political and economic grievances of their people," Gates said in his first public comments on the protests.
And later in the same article:
President Obama will submit his 2012 budget to Congress next week, which is expected to include continued aid to Egypt.
In the coming year, Egypt is scheduled to receive a wide variety of U.S. military hardware, including F-16 fighter jets, naval vessels, air defense missiles and surveillance radar, all of which could be affected by an interruption in aid.
Freezing or reducing aid could erode U.S. influence with Egypt's military at a time when the U.S. is working to avoid a violent crackdown on the protesters, Pentagon officials said.
Jer
Wait
Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 12/07/2011 - 12:39am.
I'm looking for the article that says:
"SecState Hillary Clinton and DefSec Robert Gates have revealed they have spoken in recent days with Field Marshall Tantawi and Chief of Staff Gen Anan about the need for President Mubarak to step down, immediately. According to spokesman for both Clinton and Gates, the US will unilaterally cut off all funding for the Egyptian Army beginning February 14th saying, 'there will be no Valentines Day card from the US is Hosni Mubarak is still in power.' It appears that the Obama Administration is looking forward to a Constitutional Democracy unfolding within mere months. Others, speaking on the condition of anonymity noted, 'This could be a real foreign policy win for us. We need something to go right if we're ever going to be re-elected.'"
I guess if it's in print, it must be true.
Hey Jer, who funds the Syrian Army?
[Edit: I missed a part of your last comment, here:
You don't see how that EXACTLY proves my assertion?
I see how it reaffirms a "world is round" truism, to wit:
Submitted by Jer on Wed, 12/07/2011 - 1:47am.
The power of the purse is a marvelous tool for exerting political leverage.
....Which is related to your point, but, no, I don't see how it exactly proves your assertion that the Egyptian generals were told either Mubarak goes or no more goodies.
Liberal Dem Patrick Leahy had hinted at cutting off aid and neocon Eliot Abrams had insisted on it, but in the end the administration opted for a course that would have kept Mubarak in power long enough to ensure a gradual and orderly transition while continuing to fund the Egyptian military, recognizing the latter's importance in maintaining stability. However, I think we discovered there are limits to micromanaging revolutions.
Jer
Remember, BK?
Submitted by jon_torlin on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 6:23pm.
Hey BK, remember when the Muslims(especially CAIR and Bro'Hood) were all over themselves trying to convince us that they weren't the same as the ones who did the plane flights even though there were different groups that didn't try to hide that they celebrated?
Isn't that the same kind of thinking that gave us the Ft Hood shootings that it wasn't a terrorist Islamic attack despite him yelling "Allahu Akbar!"?
-Jon
Oh yeah
Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 6:35pm.
nothing to fear here, nothing to fear here.
You know what this Egyptian vote amounts to? Loners. Yep. That's right. One-off's. Not part of any organized effort or group, these are just individuals. Now if everyone would just go back to sleep...
I am pretty danged sure
Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 8:22pm.
That what Bush wanted was folks rising up and taking over the Governments of Iran and Syria, not countries that had peaceable treaties with Israel and US. This is simply another major projection fail by Jer. No doubt Jer will call this unintended consequences, but the fact is, Obama force this all by his lonesome, even sidestepping Congress and the Wars Powers act. This is his alone.
Like Obama, to Jer, no twist is uncalled for, or over the top.
Another critical detail
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 8:41pm.
What Jer also fails (miserably) to note is that he had eight years to nudge Mubarak off the Egyptian scene, yet he did not. His Majesty The Shahinshah managed to do so in 800 days.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Unsane, I had assumed you were aware that the Obama
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 9:43pm.
administration reduced the financial support that the Bush administration had been providing opposition factions in Egypt. But now I'm starting to believe you were oblivious to that fact.
Jer
Thanks!
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 9:52pm.
I wasn't, but thank you for reinforcing my point and providing me the ammunition to reinforce my point.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
had been providing opposition factions in Egypt.
Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 9:55pm.
Really Jer? Like the Muslim Brother hood I assume? For crying out loud, are we to believe that Bush was funding anti democracy groups and Obama came in and saved them.
Despicable, no doubt that Bush was funding a group that promoted liberty, and Obama defunded it!
They were pro-democracy factions, Boudin...
Submitted by Jer on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 10:01pm.
which opposed Mubarak. The issue is regime stability. Naturally the absence of Mubarak would create a power vacuum which the Muslim Brotherhood might attempt to fill.
Jer
The issue is
Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 10:10pm.
Bush had nothing to do with the crap going on over there. Obama destabilized the country with his speeches and actions. Thats a fact Jer, and your trying to lay this at Bush's feet is nonsense. Mubarak would still be in power if not for Obama. And maybe, (not that I hold much stock in your claims) if Bush's plans were to have come to fruition there might had been a moderate democracy there in the near future. But as you suggested, Obama wouldnt tolerate that,
Not much to most claims anyway
Submitted by jon_torlin on Wed, 12/07/2011 - 11:25am.
Don't hold it against him, Boudin, he's shot his feet off so many times in this thread alone(including trying to tell the cool Shy he's cluttering up an OT??) that his medical plan has to be running out of replacement feet.
You are correct, Bush was hoping for a pro-Western style democracy, not the Muslim thug-ocracy we are starting to see form once the Bro'Hood gets their way and the Egyptians foolishly sign their lives away. Yeah, that's WHEN, not if, thanks to the Muslim in Chief and his Muslim leanings/support. If we are to believe that it's not true, then Iran wouldn't still be Sharia oriented, would they?
-Jon
jon, you can do better than that.
Submitted by Jer on Wed, 12/07/2011 - 3:51pm.
EVERYONE in the US government as well as most of our European and other strategic allies around the globe would prefer a friendly pro-Western style democracy in place of the Muslim theocracies, monarchies, and secular autocracies which have existed in many parts of the Middle East and elsewhere.
But the dismantling of those latter regimes create inevitable power vacuums which won't necessarily be filled by Jeffersonian/Madisonian democracies and constitutional republics. And to the extent this administration or the prior administration or liberal idealists or neocon pollyannaists believed otherwise, they were woefully misguided. The free elections in Palestine produced an Hamas dominated government. The ouster of Saddam resulted in a more democratic Iraq but also a country which is now more closely aligned with Iran. Once the revolutionary genie is out of the bottle, not only can it not be reinserted, but its ultimate iterations are utterly unpredictable.
I think it might help if you engaged in a bit more background research before declaring whose feet are riddled with bullet holes. As for Shy, you're referring to NB's most fervent former advocate for the Bush Democracy Project, and now he is reduced to providing minimally pertinent input beyond the posting of silly scorecards.
Jer
An oversimplification
Submitted by Unsane on Wed, 12/07/2011 - 5:32pm.
Iraq being more closely allied with Iran is quite an oversimplification of the situation.
Sure, you can argue they are more allied with Iran due to the majority Shia population in Iraq, but you must keep in mind that the Iraqi Shi'ites are Arabs whereas the Iranians are not. There are linguistic differences as well. I haven't even touched the significant minorities that live in Iraq as well. Nor have I mentioned the fact that Iraq and Iran were at war 30 years ago.
While I contend that 2011 in the Middle East just isn't the same as 1989 in Eastern Europe, it would be a mistake to assume democracy cannot flourish in the Middle East. Note that some Muslim countries, such as the most populous one, are functioning democracies, and that there are still others with significant Muslim minorities (like India). I would hope you are not contending that democracy in the Middle East is an impossibility.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Right, Uns.
Submitted by UpNorth on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 9:45pm.
I mentioned elsewhere, that regardless of what Boooosh did, when Obama took power on 1-20-2009, Mubarek was still the President of Egypt. Now, not so much. As for that guy killing thousands of his people, he's still there, the guy who's working 24-7 to get his hands on a bomb, still there, and what do we get from the administration? Words, tepid words at that.
Translation:
Submitted by Unsane on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 8:18pm.
"Bush, the evil bastard that he is, deserves ALL blame. This further demonstrates why the Republican party must be destroyed and banned, and why the United States MUST become a one-party state controlled and ruled forever by the Democratic party. See, the Democratic party never does wrong under any circumstances. People in the United States should therefore never be allowed to question the Democratic party or its politicians ever again.
"Our wonderful President is completely perfect in ALL of His attributes and must NEVER, EVER be questioned; in fact He needs to be declared PFL."
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Deja vu*
Submitted by cajun2 on Tue, 12/06/2011 - 6:30pm.
Here is another interesting article I found.
Now I know where the MSDNC got an idea of how to cover the Ows