For general discussion and debate. Possible talking point: climate bill fight helps Republicans in 2010.
Holding minority status in both the Senate and House of Representatives after a disastrous showing in the 2006 and 2008 elections, Republican leaders think that Democrats might be writing a prescription for a Republican comeback in 2010 by passing a bill instead of curing an energy and environmental problem. "If the Republicans can frame it as, 'Oh, the Democrats are once again just trying to raise your taxes, this time with a hidden tax on energy', then that will probably have substantial appeal to the electorate, particularly if we are still in the throes of a recession," said Robert Stavins, head of the Harvard Environmental Economics Program.
Is this correct, or wishful thinking?
Editor at Large
Comments Policy
The Liberal Media's New York Times Creed
June 30, 2009 - 09:21 ET by VinncyGIn part:
Oh my Obama I am heartily sorry for having offended thee. I promise to push your agenda down Americas throats as you have commanded and praise your presents down the righteous path and print whatever you tell me to. Amen
Climate good, economy better
June 30, 2009 - 09:25 ET by ArcherBClimate can be a good issue for Republicans to run on, but I think the economy will be a better one. for example, I read a quote the other day that I think would hit home:
If you can run a series of adds with normal, everyday, recently laid off Americans saying this with their kids in their laps, you're bound to win a few votes.
"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary."
--Ernesto "Che" Guevara
It depends....
June 30, 2009 - 09:27 ET by shawn228on how the economy and job front is in 2010. The price of oil and if we are at war with North Korea.
He had my vote
I don't think they will
June 30, 2009 - 09:31 ET by motherbeltI don't think they will have to "frame" it as Oh, the Democrats are once again just trying to raise your taxes, this time with a hidden tax on energy'
and anyway, that would just come off as petty whining.
What they need to do between now and then is to show every hidden tax, every job lost through this monstrosity, and the fact that it will, in fact make us more dependent on foreign oil. Explain to Americans that they will have to pay for an EPA audit of their homes before they try to sell them, and possibly make extensive EPA-required repairs, modifications, and replacement of outdated appliances before they can put them on the marked.
That's just a couple of the things that have been talked about in the past few days. I'm sure there are other hidden (and I do mean hidden!) treasures in this bill that no one has read.
They don't need to "frame" anything. Framing implies disingenous double-talk. All they need to do is get the facts out there.
I didn't think it was physically possible, but this both sucks and blows. -Bart Simpson
I was told by a friend
June 30, 2009 - 09:31 ET by taterI was told by a friend another hidden thing in the bill is that if you have a washing machine, hot water heater, etc. break you have to buy a new energy efficent one. Say goodbye to service jobs if that happens.
www.theholyrosary.org
"There is no problem, I tell you, no matter how difficult it is, that we can not resolve by the prayer of the Holy Rosary." -Sister Lucia
Efficient Products - Another Stupid Idea
June 30, 2009 - 09:36 ET by Gothampc"you have to buy a new energy efficent one."
I don't understand how people can be so blind. Several years ago, we were forced to convert to low flush toilets. I have to flush the thing at least four times to get the same results I did with one flush of the old toilet. Where's the efficiency in that?
Pride Goeth Before A Fall
June 30, 2009 - 09:32 ET by GothampcI'm watching as California has a meltdown and wondering at what point do politicians swallow their pride, admit they can't do the job and step aside?
This makes me think of a few years ago when Arnold Schwarznegger was arguing that the US should change policy so that non-US born people could run for POTUS. Leadership is a hard job. You have to put yourself aside. Why do people think it's such an easy job to lead? I think it's that they are full of pride.
Evil Karl Rove at it again
June 30, 2009 - 09:45 ET by IgnatzJFahrquarThis time, it's the vast GOP conspiracy against Cuyahoga County (Northeast Ohio - Cleveland) commissioner Jimmy (I never met a plate of Alfredo I didn't like) Dimora. Oh yeah, he's a "D" for sure plus the party head in the County.
It was last year that the feds raided the County offices and hauled off boxes of documents. His indictment is forthcoming, for sure.
The truly laughable part of all of this is that Cuyahoga County has not had a GOP presence since probably Senator Voinovich was mayor ... about a century ago.
Yes, and that lovable little troll Dennis Kucinich was recently heard saying that Jimmy "is the backbone of the Cuyahoga democrats". More like the hambone.
Perhaps the best line that aptly describes alot of the corrupt Dems here, "I'm not an angel but I'm not a crook," he said. "I have not done anything that any other public official hasn't done."
"Corruption" in wikipedia will soon have his picture (and the rest of the NE Ohio Democrats) posted.
"You should always tell the truth, because if you tell the truth you make it the other person's problem." Sean Connery
Congress in 2010
June 30, 2009 - 09:45 ET by Reality CheckI think that the climate change bill will fail in the Senate, and as a result it will not have quite the devastating impact on the Dems that it would have if it became law, and people had to live under the new regime for a couple of years before going to the polls. But it is just another point to discuss when we ask, 'Are the Democrats EVER going to come up with a proposal that DOESN'T involve higher taxes?'.
I think we also need to remember that Bush's gains in Congress during his Presidency were historical anomalies, and the Congressional losses in 2006, while heartbreaking, were more typical. I would not expect widespread Congressional gains for the Democrats in 2010 unless things really turn around in a tangible manner before then - and with the policies being put in place right now, that ain't happening.
If all the Democrats give us is higher unemployment and higher taxes, it will be Morning in America again, sooner than you think.
Reality Check
I expect the dims will retain control of congress in 2010
June 30, 2009 - 09:49 ET by R D HelmI attribute this to:
1) ACORN working to register as many net tax consumers as they possibly can-dead, alive, legal, illegal- it doesn't matter, as the Holder "Justice" Dept. will be too otherwise occupied to notice.
2) The traitorous Obama-loving, utterly corrupt SCM.
3) The rank stupidity of the average government-schooled American voter.
4) The death of Michael Jackson.
-Dave
Obama's health care "reform" plan is to blow up the building in order to fix a leak in the roof-Herman Cain
Dave
June 30, 2009 - 09:59 ET by ricklailI was thinking the same thing but for a couple different reasons.
If the climate bill passes there won't be much change until after the 2010 elections.
There is no conservative leader in the Republican party.
You are right about ACORN. No matter whether Mickey Mouse votes or not the registrations overwhelm the local boards and they cannot be verified. Therefore the dead can't be verified.
Your biggest point in the SCM. What more needs to be said.
Semper suprene nitens
Until congressional
June 30, 2009 - 09:50 ET by G. MayUntil congressional republicans actually put their money where their mouth is on fiscal conservatism AND get the balls to actually put up more of a fight across the board, there won't be a significant change.
cap and trade can be our opening......
June 30, 2009 - 09:57 ET by east tennessee johnIt will help all but 8. All you need to do is show the impact on the working class pocketbook, job security and the fact that the elites can purchase carbon offset credits they can't same goes with party apparatchics and we'll see if we're a center-right nation. This could be the issue that recreates the Reagan Democrats, but I don't trust the GOP establishment to do it, do you?
Republicans aren't going to
June 30, 2009 - 11:37 ET by ThisnThatRepublicans aren't going to be able to do a damn thing. They can't even counter these arguments effectively:
We would love to have bipartisianship, but all the Republicans do is to say no to everything. They don't bring bi-partisian ideas to the table.
I don't know if you remember this, but the 2008 elections told us that the American people want Democrats in charge, not Republicans.
These arguments resonnate with people, and for the past 6 months, no national Republican has been able to offer an effective counterargument. Until that's done, Republicans aren't going anywhere. IMO.
___________________________________
Liberals constantly demand that we accept a glaring falsehood as truth; Obama's elimination of the word "terror" will make terrorist acts less terrifying
I don't want Republicans in charge anymore
June 30, 2009 - 11:51 ET by beauxdogAfter the fiasco of the last two years, it should be obvious to all of us that the Republicans are worse than the Democrats. They are wishy-washy milquetoast soaked in water for a week. They have no backbone and are too scared of being called nasty names by the MSM. At least the Democrats are honest in their dishonesty.
I am NOT a Republican. I AM a Conservative.
The Republican party needs to go down the toilet bowl of history and be replaced by statesmen (and women) who serve with the devotion and commitment of our founding fathers - not their own selfish wants and needs.
The time has come for a new party to emerge if we are going to save America. Otherwise, we might as well apply for admission to the European Union.
Cheerios!
Beauxdog
HMMMM
June 30, 2009 - 09:56 ET by rick007If your kitchen or washing equipment breaks down you will have to replace it. HMMMM does this also help GE and the MSNBC???
You bet it does.
How much land is required to use solar or wind power to generate electricity as to using NG or Nuk energy.
Have you seen where we are purchasing NG from Russia via Shell Oil? But But!! We have our own !!!! WTF?????
The Damn O Freaking Craps are running this great country day by day.
We need to exile Pelosi,Reid and the "O" Dumbo to the Alutian Isles. See how well they like Global Warming up there!!!!
HMMMMM
June 30, 2009 - 10:01 ET by rick007I'm thinking a Romney/Palin ticket in 2012 would work.
We need a good orator to best "O" Dumbo!! Shove his BS back up his arse.
But remember the only way to unseat the Damn O Freakin Craps is to all bite the bullet and get behind a good candidate.
Romney
June 30, 2009 - 10:14 ET by Gothampc"I'm thinking a Romney/Palin ticket in 2012 would work."
The problem with Romney is that he was governor of MA when they instituted mandatory socialized healthcare in that state. He needs to give a reason why he agreed with forcing people into socialized healthcare. Why should a person be fined for not having healthcare?
Got that right, Goth. In
June 30, 2009 - 11:42 ET by ThisnThatGot that right, Goth. In the great nanny-state of Massachusetts, if you don't play -- you pay. The state's income tax form includes all those checks to determine if you are abiding by the socialized health-tax laws, and if you're not -- bingo! Fined by the state. No way out -- none whatsoever. Unless you're one of the immigrants or "poor" who get state-paid health benefits.
___________________________________
Liberals constantly demand that we accept a glaring falsehood as truth; Obama's elimination of the word "terror" will make terrorist acts less terrifying
Fine
June 30, 2009 - 12:16 ET by GothampcHow is the fine determined? Is it the same for everyone?
My daughter is working at a
June 30, 2009 - 16:44 ET by Dan The Man 2My daughter is working at a summer camp in Cape Cod. I wonder if she is subject to the same rules as a resident? And what taxes does she pay while there.
Wanna bet
June 30, 2009 - 10:32 ET by general companyObama will refuse to debate anyone in the next campain? He will call them names and belittle them, but he wont match wits with them.
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
A quickie Shrub Report…
June 30, 2009 - 10:04 ET by Roger the ShrubberNot a good day for Ernst Roehm… and trees in Siberia…
You slackers in the Midwest need to try harder!
It's time for more Jihadi Bloopers!
Speaking of slackers, it looks like all you people out there with bachelors degrees in modern dance and Elizabethan poetry and are working at Starbucks for a living can breathe a little easier: people like this shrubber will be paying your tuition bills.
Scumbag politicians fill coffers of scumbag politician.
Hope and Change! Don't worry, ACORN is on it!
A partial list of who will be keep track of the 2010 census data. There is ZERO chance of fraud here…
And the odds that this couple lives in a trailer are….
Hurray
June 30, 2009 - 10:33 ET by general companyThanks Roger, I'v missed it.
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
jessieH
June 30, 2009 - 10:06 ET by jessieHjessieH The people know an idiot when they elect one. If the MSM would stop covering up their incompetence, WE would not be electing these buffoons. The people are fed up with both parties. Where are the patriots that want to help their country?
Is this correct, or wishful
June 30, 2009 - 10:22 ET by Dan The Man 2Is this correct, or wishful thinking?
Wishful thinking. I was talking to some of my cohorts here at the city and when I mentioned Cap and Trade they went ... HUH? So the ordinary schmo on the street only knows what they hear or read from the SCM.
I'd like to see
June 30, 2009 - 10:54 ET by katainkenta party that stands for something. Not stands against one or two things and this rest is a free for all. Waiting for the Dems to go out of favor by effing over the general public isn't the most noble way to take office, either.
However, as in previous elections - where I live I am at the mercy of the majority. My vote counts for almost nothing as a red dot in a sea of blue.
___________________________________________
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past - George Orwell - 1984
KK I would like to see a
June 30, 2009 - 11:11 ET by general companyPledge written for Conservatives and Repubs, a form pledging to really uphold the Constitution, low taxes, small Gov., and a few other items. Before you are allowed to represent this party you would have to sign and pledge to defend the principals within. If you fail to do this then all the $ granted to you by the party must be returned and you could be force to resign.
Maybe the idea needs a bit more thought, but this could help prevent the Snow's and Collens's, or even the 8 Cap and Traitors.
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
ACORN Crime Syndicate
June 30, 2009 - 10:58 ET by slickwillie2001ACORN appears to be on the job doing what they can to socially engineer the banking industry: ACORN Rent-A-Mob Thugs to Harass Lenders in 14 Cities Tuesday: http://spectator.org/blog
"But let's not forget that ACORN helped to cause the mortgage bubble by strongarming banks into making loans they shouldn't have. And cheering them on was ACORN's lawyer, Barack Obama, who contributed to the increasingly hostile environment for banks when he represented plaintiffs in the 1995 class action lawsuit Buycks-Roberson v. Citibank."
Reminds me of one of those definitions of insanity.
It's not gonna just fall on their lap....
June 30, 2009 - 11:53 ET by AMR1960The GOP needs to grow a pair if they want to prevail in 2010...
I remain hopeful...
_____________________
Long Live...THE REPUBLIC !
GOP
June 30, 2009 - 12:22 ET by GothampcWell first the GOP needs to decide what it stands for. Then they need to grow a pair and tell people that don't follow the major points of the party to leave. Having "mavericks" like McCain doesn't work. Reagan won 49 states by saying "This is what the party stands for and we are not going to waver from it."
By 2010
June 30, 2009 - 12:00 ET by Tom in NCThis country will be ripe for GOP takeover of the House and Senate, by then, with the exception die hard dead-from-the-neck-up liberals, the American people unfortunately will see the fruits of out of control liberalism:
Record deficits.
Double digit inflation.
Double digit unemployment.
Explosion of new taxes.
Erosion of our freedoms.
The death of the American dream.
Our foreign policy in shambles.
Our military underfunded and in disarray.
Invasion of the government into our personal lives.
Record fuel prices.
By 2010 the people will finally wake up and see the folly of "hope and change" and realize it was nothing more than "fascism and tyranny" repackaged.
It will be a time when American politics will be turned on it's ear and the liberals will be crushed under the wheels on an electorate that will no longer stand for a government that is out-of-control and ignoring the will of the people.
Sic Semper Tyrannus
Regarding the question here
June 30, 2009 - 12:45 ET by bigtimerRegarding the question here in OT, in my opinion it matters how the repubs speak about this...simple as that.
If they don't spell it out well, with conviction, nobody will listen...plus they have to do so early and often, with facts and no backing down.
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
I want Republican scalps first
June 30, 2009 - 12:46 ET by SickofLibsThe first order of business should be to "dispatch and replace" the 8 Republican turncoats who voted for this insane legislation.
3 of the 8 who voted yes are from NJ - sound a little fishy?
The gang of eight are
June 30, 2009 - 12:55 ET by bigtimerThe gang of eight are greenie-weenie backed$$$...there will be in the Senate too...as we all are prepared for.
I pray it doesn't pass the Senate...but like I said in the poll thread they had here, I just don't know.
Nevertheless...any so-called repub who votes for this in either chamber need to be concentrated on and gone.
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
It may well give the
June 30, 2009 - 12:48 ET by AJIt may well give the Republicans a boost they need but it's not worth the collateral damage that it will do to us Americans who will have to pay 20-some percent higher taxes, pay higher utilities bills, and risk getting kicked out of our homes and businesses because the buildings don't meet some absurd standard set forth by an incompetent government.
Franken wins! Lovely...
June 30, 2009 - 13:14 ET by bigtimerFranken wins!
Lovely... all votes weren't counted eh?
Dems now have total power in the Senate to stop any filibuster.
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
only the ones that would
June 30, 2009 - 14:08 ET by dscottonly the ones that would get a Dem in office, the rest were hanging chads by GOPers who just couldn't fill out a form properly.
Now the Dems don't need to worry about passing Pelosi's energy bill with McCain's help, they don't need him and the bill will pass as is.
Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
Minnesota, what an embaressment
June 30, 2009 - 14:19 ET by IgnatzJFahrquarWho's next??? Mikey Moore?
"You should always tell the truth, because if you tell the truth you make it the other person's problem." Sean Connery
Yep..we now have another
June 30, 2009 - 14:25 ET by bigtimerYep..we now have another clown in the Senate...
...and dscott....exactly right.
Not just McC, it would have been the usual suspects too...all I can do is pray there are enough dems who are wavering...and there are some...nevertheless, they will most likely modify the House bill, go to conference and he committee will put even more back in that we didn't know about including the cow farts.
We are so screwed for a very long, long, time.
The govt will have complete control of how we live every single second...in so many ways, we are going to pay for this until we die most likely....this is out of control...completely if this passes.
I'm just ranting here...I'm so worried.
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
What to do, what to do?
June 30, 2009 - 14:59 ET by dscottWhat to do, what to do? Complain, carp, rant and generally expose the Dems to the public as creators of the economic mess. As Obama says you can complain all you want, I won and that's that. Our job is to lump the MSM and Dems together as co-conspirators of babbling happy talk to cover up their incompetence. Our job is to scrawl the word "INCOMPETENCE" all over the internet burning it into the public consciouness so come next year, there will be no hiding behind shallow sales pitches promising the moon and recovery around the corner.
There is no point saying they planned it because conspiracy theories are not widely accepted, what is accepted is drawing the conclusion of incompetence based on the observable facts. No rational person could draw any other conclusion that incompetence at the rising unemployment in the face of failed promises that was made of the stimulus bill.
Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, starving the poor one gallon of ethanol at a time. Fill your tank with E85 and cull a village.
Between this
June 30, 2009 - 17:49 ET by general companyAnd a few other bills like this, this wont be my Country anymore. We are making contacts in NZ, and AU. Seriously, I will fight like hell, but sooner or later these fools deserve themselves. I will seek asylum else where, why should I suffer with them?
My Gov. thinks I am dangerous, so be careful
"Television is a freak show" Bernie Goldberg
Democrat Announcment
June 30, 2009 - 23:48 ET by AMR1960The Democrats would like to announce the blessed arrival of their newest SENATOR:
http://orangejuiceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/al-franken-sucks-300x237.jpg
_____________________
Long Live...THE REPUBLIC !
Billy Mays
June 30, 2009 - 13:56 ET by ricklailBegining tomorrow morning at 11 the Discovery Channel will begin to air a tribute to Billy Mays. It will end at 10 with the season and possibly the series finale of "Pitchmen."
Semper suprene nitens
FUNNY!!!!!!!
June 30, 2009 - 13:48 ET by ricklailBARNEY FRANKS
Semper suprene nitens
LOL rickl.... Now that
June 30, 2009 - 13:53 ET by bigtimerLOL rickl....
Now that does say it all!
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
Nutball Sighting
June 30, 2009 - 17:29 ET by slickwillie2001Cymfia McKinney in the news:
SS Moonbat and Crazy Captain Hair Stranded off Coast of Gaza:
http://www.weaselzippers.net
"Foreign activists on board an aid ship Tuesday ignored orders by the Israeli Navy to turn around, sparking a stand-off some 40 kilometres off the Gaza coast. The ship of the international, pro-Palestinian Free Gaza movement and carrying a symbolic amount of medical supplies, toys, and reconstruction kits, departed from Larnaca Port in Cyprus early Monday. But when it arrived off the shores of Gaza before dawn Tuesday, it was surrounded by Israeli gunboats, which ordered it to turn around."
Hey sw... You mean she
June 30, 2009 - 17:34 ET by bigtimerHey sw...
You mean she has done it again?
This is a repeat?
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
Re Repeat
June 30, 2009 - 18:00 ET by slickwillie2001Yeah, I vaguely remember that she has done this before. Probably as much an excuse for a vacation in Greece paid for by some far-left-wing benefactor as anything else. You can always hope for a rogue wave though.
sw... Some people never
June 30, 2009 - 18:07 ET by bigtimersw...
Some people never learn.
A rogue wave indeed...we couldn't be that lucky.
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
I remarked the other week
June 30, 2009 - 18:05 ET by ricklailI remarked the other week about the good job Jawja governor Purdue was doing keeping her, McKinney, in the aylsum. Looks like he has opened the door because Jimma is on the loose again too.
Semper suprene nitens
rickl... Lord he and Zbig
June 30, 2009 - 18:11 ET by bigtimerrickl...
Lord he and Zbig never go away...they just aren't satisfied witht he damage they have already done world-wide....let alone our own nation.
Doubling down on stupid is not a particularly good idea. ~Andrew Breitbart
Good Gawd! Al Franken will be the one who casts the vote...
June 30, 2009 - 18:56 ET by R D Helm...that will sends us all over the proverbial cliff!
Damn, a washed-up comedian is going to kill America.
I think I am going to be sick.
-Dave
Obama's health care "reform" plan is to blow up the building in order to fix a leak in the roof-Herman Cain
More on Honduras
June 30, 2009 - 19:08 ET by slickwillie2001Excellent IBD article on Honduras: Banana Democrats: http://www.ibdeditorial.com
"That's the sorry story as Honduras' now ex-president, Mel Zelaya, last Thursday defied a Supreme Court ruling and tried to hold a 'survey' to rewrite the constitution for his permanent re-election. It's the same blueprint for a rigged political system that's made former democracies like Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua and Ecuador into shells of free countries. Zelaya's operatives did their dirt all the way through. First they got signatures to launch the 'citizen's power' survey through threats -- warning those who didn't sign that they'd be denied medical care and worse."
So why would we want to give our democratics the power to withhold our health care?